This episode reviews a previously hidden report by Pfizer to the FDA covering the first 90 days of ‘post authorization’ vaccine safety data.  A judge ordered its release and, perhaps not surprisingly, no major news outlet has dared to cover the story.

Within that first 90- day window, over 1,200 deaths were reported, with a significant number appearing to happen within the first 24 hours after vaccination.  We can’t say for sure because the report lacks critical details that would allow us to align the specific deaths with the reported observation that the median elapsed time between vaccination and the adverse event was “<24 hours” for many types of AEs.





This report is a ‘second go’ by Pfizer after the first report was deemed wholly insufficient and lacking detail.  This one isn’t actually all that much better, as it is entirely passive (no active data collection undertaken – it relies entirely on “spontaneously” reported events, and no inquiry into the adverse events is part of this version of the report), there’s no attempt made to define the incidence of events, and there is no visible effort made to compare the levels of events to an expected baseline of such events.

It is also impossible to determine first vs second vaccination injections (not reported) and the age brackets are not even age brackets (“child, adult and elderly”).

Besides the 1,223 spontaneously reported deaths, there is an overwhelming tilt towards women reporting AE’s often on the order of 4x or more.  None of these were deemed to be worthy of modifying either the administration of the vaccines or the collection of new data in more useful detail.
Further, I track down the actual state of knowledge of what is and is not known about pregnancy and the vaccines to uncover the fact that no providers can say, one way or the other, if the vaccines are safe.

In the most current language available to vaccinators and health care providers, Pfizer says “Available data on COMIRNATY administered to pregnant women are insufficient to inform vaccine-associated risks in pregnancy.

Naturally, without being able to articulate the actual risk, true informed consent is not possible for pregnant women seeking to understand what the risks might be to their unborn child.  All that can truthfully be said is “we don’t know.”

If more robust data does exist, it is not yet been made public.  We may have to wait up to 55 years for that.

Report title: 5.3.6 CUMULATIVE ANALYSIS OF POST-AUTHORIZATION ADVERSE EVENT REPORTS OF PF-07302048 (BNT162B2) RECEIVED THROUGH 28-FEB-2021

Links to Referenced Material

FAIR USE NOTICE This video may contain copyrighted material; the use of which has not been specifically authorized by the copyright owner. We are making such material available for the purposes of criticism, comment, review and news reporting which constitute the fair use of any such copyrighted material as provided for in section 107 of the US Copyright Law. Not withstanding the provisions of sections 106 and 106A, the fair use of a copyrighted work for purposes such as criticism, comment, review and news reporting is not an infringement of copyright.

This video is intended for EDUCATIONAL and ENTERTAINMENT purposes ONLY and is NOT to be construed as LEGAL, FINANCIAL or MEDICAL ADVICE. Repeat: THIS IS NOT LEGAL, FINANCIAL or MEDICAL ADVICE. We are not legal, financial or medical experts. In case we lose our YouTube channel, be prepared to subscribe to us in other ways.

Episode 038

00:00 – Intro
02:17 – Pfizer Safety Data “Leaked”
09:38 – Known Limitations of SAEs
12:59 – Issues Immediately Apparent in Table 1
21:32 – Safety: Preganancy
24:08 – Children – Off Label Use
27:09 – Heart Issues (Known by Feb 28, 2021)
31:15 – Immune-Mediated
33:34 – Informed Consent
40:44 – What is “informed Consent” for Pregnancy?
43:00 – Conclusions

Part 2

Part 2 – Omicron, New Covid Research, and Europe – is available for our premium enrolled members.  Click here to continue to Part 2.

 

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250 Comments

  • Tue, Dec 07, 2021 - 7:10pm

    #1
    helmadi

    helmadi

    Status: Member

    Joined: May 23 2021

    Posts: 132

    4

    helmadi said:

    https://rumble.com/

    vqcsis-c19-vax-riskbenefit-ratio-is-too-damn-high.html

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  • Tue, Dec 07, 2021 - 7:50pm

    #2
    RoseHip

    RoseHip

    Status: Bronze Member

    Joined: Feb 05 2013

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    19

    Myocarditis

    The diagnostic test to diagnose myocarditis is a cardiac MRI. I would imagine one could look to see how many cardiac MRI's where completed 2021 or some time frame vs some earlier pre-pandemic time frame. Looking for increased volumes vs decreasing average age of people getting these test. Data collection or analysis is not my thing.

    When we upend informed consent and someone does get injured. Most are not being treated for the correct diagnosis. The follow through on these patients then follows a different type of outcome like anxiety disorder or something like that.  Meaning upended informed consent turns into upended diagnosis and mis-treatments that vaccine injured patients receive or don't. Risk vs benefit can not be medically accurately provided. This leads to more poor sense making.

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  • Tue, Dec 07, 2021 - 8:13pm

    #3
    Carol

    Carol

    Status: Member

    Joined: Apr 11 2020

    Posts: 2

    26

    Post Vaccine

    I received both doses of the Moderna vaccine this spring. The night of my second dose, I woke up to take a fever reducer and ended up fainting in my hallway. I developed bilateral swelling of my lymph nodes in my axillary, a large rash and swelling of my arm that lasted over a week, and my period re-started mid-month. I was hospitalized for POTS, my heart rate doubled when I would stand up. Three months after the vaccine, I developed telogen effluvium and quickly lost about 25% of my hair. After speaking with many other women on different social media forums, they too developed TE after the vaccine. I’m in my 40’s and the thought of getting a booster shot terrifies me.

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  • Tue, Dec 07, 2021 - 9:29pm

    Jane B

    Jane B

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    Jane B said:

    I'm so sorry this happened to you Carol

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  • Tue, Dec 07, 2021 - 10:49pm

    Izzy Bea

    Izzy Bea

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    Izzy Bea said:

    So sorry you had to go through such a trauma. Very saddening and scary for anyone to face such challenges. Hopefully you will be able to get a medical exemption from further jabs.

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  • Tue, Dec 07, 2021 - 11:38pm

    #6
    austrader26

    austrader26

    Status: Member

    Joined: Dec 17 2020

    Posts: 14

    12

    austrader26 said:

    Hi Chris,

    Thanks for breaking down that 'data' set. Hard to draw any reliable conclusions when the data isn't anchored, but there was a signal a blind person couldn't miss, and that signal should have been investigated by those charged with such things. Regulatory capture is a mild diagnosis, IMHO. Epic malfeasance may be another expression.

    At the end of the recording I had a idea for how we might be able to wake some people up. Would it be possible to pull apart a previous trial (timeline) and show the kind of data collection, decision points, etc, that 'should' be part of a trial (in a healthy system)? I am thinking of Swine Flu from 1976, hopefully a clear case since the vaccine was ceased when that danger signal was registered. The contrast with our current situation, comparing 52 dead against possibly 40k-500k is so stark that the shock may just register.

    Another point I picked up on just in the past few days from a source I cannot pin down now: That previously the fact of fatalities or SAEs related to a trial was allowed to stand (as pure anchored data), which could then be analysed for confounding factors. Now, so much data is waved away, or shrugged away. But causality can come later, if we have proper data. The events are a signal yet the signal is being wished away by our regulatory bodies. In Australia for example we have had over 600 dead, yet only ~10 were attributed to the shots. The regulator spends more time making excuses for why the signal isn't a signal than they do investigating. Autopsies for example might yield important insights.

    I fear that at the moment this scenario may be a little abstract for laypersons, since few of us will have followed such a case study before we too are adrift regarding 'how it should be' in a healthy system. We don't know what that looks like, since our lived experience does not predate the reign of Fauci. And the PR machine is keeping people in that state of ignorance by disgorging carefully curated soundbites, and by nudging us relentlessly.

    Providing a frame of reference for people, a worked example so to speak, might help them see just how far the Overton window has been shifted.

    And Carol, I am so sorry to hear about your experience. All the best.

    Kindest Regards,

    AM

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  • Wed, Dec 08, 2021 - 1:34am

    #7
    danina

    danina

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    Joined: Sep 17 2008

    Posts: 81

    2

    Other vaccines?

    Chris, thank you so much for this report. So important!!!

     

    This report was from Pfizer. Are there similar reports from the other producers of the different vaccines?

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  • Wed, Dec 08, 2021 - 1:56am

    #8
    nordicjack

    nordicjack

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    25

    nordicjack said:

    There may be insufficient document evidence supporting that the vaccines are deadly. Though, we know they are.  But one thing is for sure, is they are not proven safe, and there is no reliable data to even suggest they are safe.   SO, this is not a safe and effective vaccine period.    I will take my shot in 55 years, when more data is released and it proves it is safe.

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  • Wed, Dec 08, 2021 - 2:26am

    #9
    Primary Care_MD

    Primary Care_MD

    Status: Silver Member

    Joined: May 14 2020

    Posts: 301

    37

    do WE have the burden of proof, to show these are unsafe? or vice versa?

    What more will it take till we demand that they stop this cruel and evil experiment, and strongly advise everyone to stop being victimized. The appropriate messaging is: DO NOT GET THIS INJECTION, NO MATTER WHAT they threaten to do to you as a consequence.

    People are being taken advantage of, because they don't understand the data, or the real science of what these injections are doing, or the long term risks. WE DO. WE have a responsibility to apply our knowledge, follow our moral compass, and advocate for those being medically raped.

    Nothing good will come of this. I've seen enough. Too much. There is no 'safe covid shot.' We need to stop trying to find an age range or comorbidity that might benefit from trillions of spike proteins, which at best, provide a few months of very narrow protection against the original strain of virus, and at worst, cause heart attacks, strokes, permanent neurological disease, myocarditis etc.

    What piece of data are we waiting for, to prove they are unsafe? And why won't they just give us that data?

    TPTP have manipulated the world into believing their shots are safe and effective. They shifted the burden of proof to anyone who doesn't submit. That's backwards. That's what sick people do. Psychopaths. 'If only you did what I told you to do, then I wouldn't have to bruise your pretty face.'  These self-appointed experts no longer deserve the benefit of the doubt.

    Robert F. Kennedy Jrs.' book on Fauci documents how the Rockefeller and Gates families have had a decades-long shared obsession with eugenics and population control, via fertility 'vaccines' (pp.329-340). It's not a conspiracy theory; it reveals their m.o., their goal, and their lack of respect for human life, nature, religion, spirituality, inter-dependence, freedom from servitude, right to exist, and bodily autonomy.

    We are all thinking about this from a position of weakness, dependence, fear, and confusion. The billionaires, the media, the pols are the most disgusting bunch of creeps that ever lived! We've been too nice, too deferential, always making excuses for their bad behavior. 'I'm sure there's some other explanation. They wouldn't really try to harm us, intentionally...'. Actually, yes they would.

     

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  • Wed, Dec 08, 2021 - 2:40am

    Jim H

    Status: Silver Member

    Joined: Jun 08 2009

    Posts: 1751

    29

    Excellent call to arms Primary Care MD!

    You said it all..  if we don't stand up now we are just inviting the next beating.  I have decided to stop wearing a mask in stores now.. I will not comply with even that, because our compliance is what is slowly killing us.  We cannot let them ratchet us any further, and we need to step back the insanity now.  I will not remain quiet any more.

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  • Wed, Dec 08, 2021 - 3:51am

    mememonkey

    Status: Bronze Member

    Joined: Nov 01 2009

    Posts: 215

    29

    Agreed

    I have decided to stop wearing a mask in stores now.. I will not comply with even that, because our compliance is what is slowly killing us.  We cannot let them ratchet us any further, and we need to step back the insanity now.  I will not remain quiet any more.

    I don’t comply with this either. Masks as implemented are pure theatre.  They are not about safety they are about signaling compliance.  A requisite symbolism that we’re  in a constant state of emergency that in fact does not comport with actual statistics,  which like the mask mandates serve to disproportionately represent the actual risks.

    The irony of a nation of metabolically  deranged mostly obese population needing to wear a mask to shop for the processed junk food that  passes for groceries  and cornucopia of pharmaceutical poisons to treat the consequences of said groceries is apparently lost on our medical “ Authorities”

     

    mm

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  • Wed, Dec 08, 2021 - 4:01am

    #12
    den111

    den111

    Status: Member

    Joined: Apr 03 2009

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    17

    den111 said:

    Checking your browser before accessing www.peakprosperity.com.

    This process is automatic. Your browser will redirect to your requested content shortly.

    Redirecting…

    DDoS protection by Cloudflare
    Ray ID: 6ba4c9893838e84d
    Anybody else getting this message going to the site. It's always been delayed. Very slow. Now this?  Den

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  • Wed, Dec 08, 2021 - 4:20am

    MadRocketScientist

    MadRocketScientist

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    Joined: Dec 16 2020

    Posts: 21

    8

    MadRocketScientist said:

    den111,
    There was an attack on the website and this is to stop it, nothing to worry about!

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  • Wed, Dec 08, 2021 - 6:00am

    #14
    Ra.

    Ra.

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    Joined: Nov 06 2021

    Posts: 19

    2

    U.K. Perspective

    Given this was data presentation to the end of February, context must be used. I noticed the U.K. events recorded highest. We stole the march on many countries (especially EU nations). Pfizer was given the go ahead even before the AZOx vaccine. So one could assume that nearly all the early jabs were Pfizer. We were vaccinating our elderly and those with more life threatening conditions. How many of these people already had weak hearts? Women are represented at a larger ratio than men. I took my then 79 year old mum for her first jab on Dec 30th. I gazed at the queue of very infirm mostly slight  ladies on walking frames, walking sticks. None of them appeared to be pregnant and at that age I doubt they would have the nerve to breast feed in public. I saw two confused people needing assistance by a relative as they seemed to be in at least early dementia.

    My friend in his mid 60s with a flagged high risk condition did not receive his vaccine until half way through March but received the AZ jab (lucky so and so) by then he had already had Covid the previous September (tested) and reported a marked reaction echoing his previous infection.

    Are we likely to get any further more recent data now? Not on your nelly.

    Addendum: There was an quite a lot of noise in the early days over here of a black market for private buyers of a jab. Now I doubt the givers of the vaccine (real or fake givers or vaccine) would they have reported an adverse event? The reporters would have probably been recipients of may be or not a real vaccine.

     

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  • Wed, Dec 08, 2021 - 7:40am

    #15
    mwebb242

    mwebb242

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    Joined: Aug 15 2021

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    30

    mwebb242 said:

    I am the most junior commissioned officer to have ever served as the operations officer for all army strategic counterintelligence in CONUS, helped to launch the precursor of the NMIC, the AFMIC, which was reported to have alerted the President as early as November 2019 regarding a public health threat to US forces in the Sino Pacific, and, hence, can be certified to testify as an expert in federal court. I also possess sufficient knowledge and experience to testify as an expert on FOIA. On March 23, 2021, the White House acknowledged receipt of a FOIA request we had submitted regarding whether the infectious dose and secondary attack rate for COVID-19 was classified. This is a trick question, because we can only classify information if the government owns the property, and under a short list of Supreme Court decisions beginning in 1980, we can only own a biological agent if it had origins in a laboratory. Immediately after the deadline had tolled for the White House on April 20, 2020, a series of events occurred, including a tasking to the Intelligence Community and an order to disable problematic social media accounts, of which ours was one, disabled on Facebook on July 19, 2021.

    On July 7, 2021, under the FOIA, we filed for an injunction in federal court, and was assigned an Obama appointed judge, who had been nominated for a promotion to the Circuit Court of Appeals, a $60,000 raise. Long story short, our action to compel the White House to respond to a simr yes or no question, no understanding of science required, was dismissed on October 29, 2021, surreptitiously, to hinder an opportunity to seek an appeal, but we caught it on time. At the Circuit Court of Appeals, a litigant has an opportunity to climb to periscope depth to fire a torpedo, an application to the Supreme Court justice assigned to the Circuit, to obtain a prejudgment decision on the shadow docket, much like the decision obtained by the Archdiocese of Brooklyn last December. Our assigned justice is Chief Judtice Roberts, and we shall be expecting a decision shortly.

    Legally, it is an unjust enrichment for the government to create the conditions in which it may profit and an illegitimate state interest when done to restrict liberty and violate rights.

    Fortune favors the bold in battle, and Rangers leaf the way, and I happen to be a retired Army Ranger.

     

    By the way, CDC was aware of the myocarditis risk associated with all mRNA vaccines as early as March 2020.

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  • Wed, Dec 08, 2021 - 8:37am

    westcoastjan

    westcoastjan

    Status: Platinum Member

    Joined: Jun 04 2012

    Posts: 1463

    21

    Also agreed

    Def time to assert ourselves more. In the last 2 days I did several shopping errands. I did not wear a mask and was successful without any hassles in 5/6 stores. The 6th would not permit me in, saying I could order on line and they would bring it to the front curb for me. Declined to give them my business.

    What was extraordinary was that other shoppers paid me no heed, and clerks were passive. This is a marked departure from recent history, where there was a much higher level of concern and discomfort, to the point of tempers flaring by those captured by the fear porn. Of note, many shoppers who were masked (likely 99% of the crowd) had vacant looks in their eyes, like they were not really all there.

    I do hope this is a sign of compliance weariness. And for sure, it gives me encouragement to continue to go mask-less and lead by example in the hopes others will get brave as well.

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  • Wed, Dec 08, 2021 - 9:08am

    laurel77

    laurel77

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    Joined: Dec 02 2008

    Posts: 22

    3

    laurel77 said:

    Yes, have gotten this message, and slowdown of access, only in last few days.

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  • Wed, Dec 08, 2021 - 9:09am

    #18
    the blame-e

    the blame-e

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    18

    the blame-e said:

    Pfizer is committing genocide. Whether Pfizer allowed people to die (or made people kill themselves, like the German family that committed suicide because they refused to take the jab(s)); whether Pfizer knew people would die; or killed people themselves directly. It's genocide.

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  • Wed, Dec 08, 2021 - 10:23am

    #19

    Quercus bicolor

    Status: Gold Member

    Joined: Mar 19 2008

    Posts: 1167

    19

    A hit on YT!

    Chris's recent public videos have gotten around 100K views with a few "No Discernable Relationship Between Vaccines and Cases" and "Mass Psychosis and You" pushing 200K.  Last night's video is up to 103 K by 10:15 AM EST the next morning.  I've reloaded it a couple of times and the views are going up something a bit less than 10K/hour.  Maybe this will be a big hit, but of course, that could cost Chris his channel.

    3:30 PM: up to 128K, about 5K/hour.  We'll see how long this continues

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  • Wed, Dec 08, 2021 - 11:57am

    Izzy Bea

    Izzy Bea

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    Joined: Jul 15 2021

    Posts: 62

    2

    Izzy Bea said:

    Yes, it started yesterday morning. I posted a comment under yesterday's post immediately. It still does it occasionally, but does not ask for username and password like yesterday morning.

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  • Wed, Dec 08, 2021 - 2:08pm

    #21
    Terminator

    Terminator

    Status: Member

    Joined: Feb 06 2011

    Posts: 140

    8

    Governments are in total gridlock

    Not too impressed with the study, maybe the title was a bit too click-baity. 1200 deaths is a lot, however not if it relates to a global jab campaign with 100s of million shots. Still inexcusable that the signal was not investigated further. But we already knew this.

    We can explore all the data we want, clarify and promote it. We need to accept the reality, the governments are in a total grid lock.

    In the beginning there was an emergency and they were forced to do something, based on the underwhelming accurate, apocalyptic models of the junior NIH data engineers (interns?) they decided to sign up for shots for all. The competition between countries worldwide led them to accept ridiculous terms (waiving liability!? Rushed pre-approvals, oversubscription). Most countries bought in advance to make sure that if needed they would have more than enough supply, after being shamed on the mask scarcity disaster.

    Basically the Pfizers and Modernas have our governments by the balls, they signed up for binding purchasing contracts signed with blood and must execute clauses. Even when there are other treatments or even if the virus is gone, the shots needs to be bought and will be delivered and paid for. It's evil by all means and it comes with tax evasion tactics as well, so no government is benefitting from the forced purchases.

    Bailing out is not an option, by now we understand and can proof easily the narrative is wrong, but they can't go back. Well, Bret Weinstein said in a very early episode of the dark horse podcast before the jab season was started that we should decide for a massive jab bailout and just pay the Big Pharma c**ks##kers off, a dollar to the dollar on their contracts and let them shove their jabs. It would take 100s of billions (on the global multiyear contracts) but then we could stop the jab madness immediately. Powell should be able to print a little extra by doing some overtime easily, but believing this is called dreaming.

    Anyway, we are between a rock and a hard place. The jabs are a fallacy especially for the sub 50, the governments are bought and paid for by BF with their own printed money so hell yes, let's hope omicron might be our saviour and makes stopping all the non-sense inevitable.

    Currently the governments just try to pushing a fitting narrative to their BF commitments they can't escape from.

    Mandates, immunity pass (stop calling it vaxx pass, it's not) and jabs (stop calling them vaccines, they are not) could still be part of a larger theme/agenda. However the current behaviour is easier to explain.

    Although this is on unprecedented scale, this intertwining of government and pharma is nothing new, suppressing too much clarity neither:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lOW_JGAL7oI&ab_channel=RussellBrand

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  • Wed, Dec 08, 2021 - 3:06pm

    Peter926

    Peter926

    Status: Member

    Joined: Apr 10 2020

    Posts: 45

    2

    Peter926 said:

    Yes, I keep getting that message too

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  • Wed, Dec 08, 2021 - 3:13pm

    #23
    Primary Care_MD

    Primary Care_MD

    Status: Silver Member

    Joined: May 14 2020

    Posts: 301

    14

    I may have found the data we need to call for a complete halt

     

    Is THIS the data we need to call for a complete halt?

    • An investigation using official data from NHS and the U.K.’s Office for National Statistics (ONS) found that deaths among teenagers increased 47% since they started getting COVID-19 shots.
    • Deaths from COVID-19 also went up among 15- to 19-year-olds after the shots were rolled out for this age group. 

     

    Is THIS the data we need to call for a complete halt?

    • In the week ending November 12, 2021, the U.K. reported 2,047 more deaths than occurred during the same period between 2015 and 2019; heart disease and strokes appear to be behind many of the excess deaths.  [recall 62% positive d-Dimer]
    • In the last 13 weeks alone, about 107,700 seniors died above the normal rate, despite a 98.7% injection rate
    • In Vermont, where the majority are also injected, excess deaths are the highest they’ve been since before the pandemic
    • Even with mass injections and some receiving two and even three shots in their arm, excess deaths are rising
    https://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2021/12/08/excess-deaths-exploding-despite-mass-vaccination.aspx

     

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  • Wed, Dec 08, 2021 - 3:22pm

    #24
    Primary Care_MD

    Primary Care_MD

    Status: Silver Member

    Joined: May 14 2020

    Posts: 301

    16

    red lights flashing yet?

    The eugenicists and malthusians made the virus, then used the media to scare the world into taking their "safe and effect" injection (not a vaccine.)  Two to 12 weeks later, the injection causes recipients to die of "natural causes." Except, kids don't have heart attacks or strokes. What am I missing here? Oh, they're making billions off of killing us.

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  • Wed, Dec 08, 2021 - 3:36pm

    #25
    mikies123

    mikies123

    Status: Member

    Joined: Dec 18 2020

    Posts: 70

    14

    vaccination data and market share

    Chris, I know you are reviewing Pfizer data, but want to provide some historical perspective regarding vaccination data.  The VAERS system and the vaccine act of 1986 came about because of the activism of DPT parents (Dissatisfied Parents Together) which became the National Vaccine Information Center.  At that time from the very beginning of the use of the whole-cell (vs accellular) DPT vaccine, children were being killed and severely damaged.  Connought, Wyeth, Lederle and others were manufacturing the most acutely reactive vaccine.  It had the highest FDA rejection rates because the manufacturing of the DPT vaccination had serious issues.  The DPT had over 3,000 antigen units compared to the accelular which has 3 as I recall.

    Market Share:  Sometime in the middle 90's the FDA was interviewed on camera about all the injuries which were now coming to light from NVIC printing the DPT VAERS data.  The FDA said "we only know the numerator" and the vaccine manufacturers control the denominator.  The public is never allowed to see the denominator because its considered proprietary and might reveal "market share".  So what good is a numerator without a denominator.  The last thing the FDA, CDC, vaccine manufacturers i.e Merck, Pfizer, Sanofi, Glaxo Smith Kline and whomever I am forgetting want parents to know is "what are the true rates of reaction for a highly reactive vaccine."  Every act of concealment for the true extent of injuries, long term effects of vaccination was learned from the DPT vaccination.

    The FDA, CDC, Vaccine Manufacturers have only gotten better at concealment.

    Chris and others if you want to really understand vaccination evil pick up a copy of "A Shot in the Dark" by Barbara Loe Fisher and Harris Coulter.  Go to page 142 and begin reading about a cluster of 11 SIDS cases, from one lot, Wyeth #64201, in Tennessee.  It was parents talking to parents that led to this discovery that one lot killed 11 infants.  What a coincidence from a highly reactive vaccine known to have serious manufacturing issues.  Just read the rest for yourself, but what did the FDA, CDC, Vaccine manufacturers learn from this:  The last thing they want is parents talking to one another about vaccinations.  So to prevent a clustering of vaccine reactions from being discovered by parents was make sure that vaccine lots were divided by size and time and sprinkled all over the country so that a parent seeing a devastating vaccine reaction in Indiana, would not know about the same thing happening in California, from the same lot from the same thing happening in Texas.  You cannot have parents putting 2 + 2 =4.

    You also might want to look for "Vaccination Social Violence and Criminality"--The Medical Assault on the American Brain by Harris Coulter.

    No, 1 in 44 children with autism is not the result of better diagnosis. Its the ingredients and a bloated untested vaccination schedule, but keep parents misinformed drinking Kool-Aid.

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  • Wed, Dec 08, 2021 - 3:37pm

    BonnieB2A

    BonnieB2A

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    Joined: Feb 25 2020

    Posts: 49

    12

    BonnieB2A said:

    CEO of BioNTech came out today saying that the jab for the Omiron variant would be a 3 jab treatment.  That is 6 jabs total with the original Pfizer COVID jab +1 booster.

    SIX JABS: BioNTech CEO Says Omicron Variant May Need Three More Vaccine Doses, Plus Initial Vaccine and Boosters

     

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  • Wed, Dec 08, 2021 - 3:56pm

    GBruno1600

    GBruno1600

    Status: Member

    Joined: Sep 06 2021

    Posts: 202

    14

    What are you missing there?

    How about the indisputable fact that this genocide is ONLY in the West?

    The deliberate and malicious elimination of ONLY the Western peoples.

    By a "Cabal" of liars, narrative-spinners, hypocrites, Banksters, Mass Media Masters, or the eternally-vile materialistic "money-changers" of modern times: "They" are "Legion".

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  • Wed, Dec 08, 2021 - 4:05pm

    Primary Care_MD

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    Primary Care_MD said:

    my theory: TPTB feel like they can do anything they want to people in poor countries (because they mostly gotten away with it in the past), and the only ones who truly stand in their way are Westerners, especially the armed ones.

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  • Wed, Dec 08, 2021 - 4:07pm

    GBruno1600

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    Mercury as "preservatives" and "over-vaccination" causes chronic inflammation.

    These are what Dr. Wakefield was warning everyone about that was causing these neurological diseases.

    All he got for his whistleblowing was demonization by the "Cabal" and their "captured" Mass Media.

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  • Wed, Dec 08, 2021 - 4:15pm

    GBruno1600

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    Yes, there is both a "Cabal" and ...

    And only the Western People's, both can and might, stand in their way of Global Dominion.

    Kill them slowly, silently, and cooperatively with "false narratives" to just "suicide themselves".

    Just like "Epstein", who just really didn't kill himself either!

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  • Wed, Dec 08, 2021 - 4:17pm

    #31

    000

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    Why does India have a low body count?

    This is not an endorsement and I have no connection to Dr. Haider.





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  • Wed, Dec 08, 2021 - 4:19pm

    Kat43

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    Kat43 said:

    Wakefield had to be destroyed.  And he had to serve as an example to anyone else who might speak up, to let them know they would be destroyed as well.

    He didn't start out as a whistleblower.  His mistake was answering a question at a press conference, following release of the Lancet article where he was one of about a dozen authors on a paper discussing an unusual GI condition that potentially was associated somehow with the MMR vaccine, that until more was known maybe it would be a good idea to do the MMR vaccines separately, one at a time.  Because at that time, Wakefield was (still) pro-vax.  Big Pharma in Britain was apoplectic at that idea because they were getting rid of the single vaccines, and the last thing they wanted was for parents to decide to give their children only 1 or 2 of them, not all three.

    None of the adjuvants have been properly studied.  Zero effort by .gov or Big Pharma to study the combination of vaccines.  Highly toxic amounts of aluminum in some of them (it isn't excreted), compounded by additional vaccines with aluminum.

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  • Wed, Dec 08, 2021 - 4:24pm

    GBruno1600

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    Want to be a human pin-cushion?

    And a lab rat or Guinea pig?

    Make the "Cabal" rich while they exterminate you by destroying your immune system?

    Thanks but no thanks!

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  • Wed, Dec 08, 2021 - 4:25pm

    Arthur Robey

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    Arthur Robey said:

    The Ashkenazi were harmless steppe goatherders.

    The magic catalyst that has propelled the Ashkenazi before us for our inspection is Abrahamism.

    Yet one more reason to abandon the Abrahamic cults. Were we not better served by the evolved wisdom of our Folk religions?

    I know that mine, that of Freya, clears my eyes. The Very Essence of Our religion is Freedom.

     

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  • Wed, Dec 08, 2021 - 4:33pm

    GBruno1600

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    That's what happens to anyone that crosses the "Cabal" or their "narratives".

    BTW: both mercury and aluminum are neurotoxic.

    War and Healthcare/Big Pharma are Profitable Rackets.

    The "Cabal" controls all of "the narratives" through fiat currency.

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  • Wed, Dec 08, 2021 - 4:36pm

    Arthur Robey

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    Kat.

    I have three Autistic grandchildren, when No autism existed in my day, the exception proving the rule.

    My dear and beautiful daughter-in-law expressed, unbidden, the belief that these injuries had nothing to do the injections.

    "Unbidden" because these thoughts were topmost in her mind.

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  • Wed, Dec 08, 2021 - 5:16pm

    #37
    TrumanV

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    ritual sacrifice of children: vax bus, NYC

    Two days ago I passed by a public school, PS 6, Madison Ave/81-82, and outside on Madison was parked a long, jolly-colored bus, outside of which were a couple white canvas tents and ropes to guide parents and children to the sidewalk vaccination booth.

    About 10 or so masked parents stood within the ropes with their masked children (very small kids, maybe 2nd or 3rd graders...); the side of the bus displays happy diverse cartoon children and the panel (depicted in photo) of eager upraised hands: "All in favor of a COVID-19 vaccine, raise your arm" ... and all arms are raised ... no dissenting arms ... ALLLL ABOOOOAAARD !

    As a highly visible traveling billboard, that bit of cartoonish propaganda has three impacts: (1) normalizing and cheerleading the vaccination of children; (2) influencing kids into bullying groupthink (i.e., show of upraised hands); (3) creating the absurd illusion of meaningful consent ("Hey, the kids raised their hands ... they were in favor of the vaccines ... umm ... 8 years before they reached the age of majority...).

    So, if the shots prove themselves to be dangerous in continually unfolding ways, it appears that the symbol of this generation's undeserved suffering will not be soot-stained cattle cars, but rather these gaily-colored propaganda buses ... (though from what I could tell, they're not necessarily for transporting children, but rather the vaccination staff and portable equipment.)

    The sight of the eager parents and innocent kids underscored the point made by Mattias Desmet that the sleepwalkers of mass formation hypnosis must make ritual sacrifices to demonstrate fealty to the crusade.

    So ... on Madison Ave, so many Isaacs, but no clement God to stay the hand of all the obedient Abrahams.

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  • Wed, Dec 08, 2021 - 6:14pm

    westcoastjan

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    Gee, you guys get the fun bus and we get the warning bus

    I have posted this before on PP but it is worth revisiting. Canada (this city in Ontario) is normalizing strokes in kids. It is just so mind boggling and disconcerting 🤦‍♀️😑🙄

    I cannot believe that parents are not up in arms about this... which tells me the mass psychosis is far deeper than thought.

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  • Wed, Dec 08, 2021 - 6:33pm

    #39
    Vesko

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    Vesko said:

    Where can I read the report?

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  • Wed, Dec 08, 2021 - 6:35pm

    TrumanV

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    TrumanV said:

    Thanks for reposting that pic Westcoastjan--I recall seeing that before. Incredible. Strokes 4 Kidz.

    Re your question about why parents are not "up in arms" about this madness, some are, but most are not in the way we'd usually think: in the hypno-world of "mass fealty," up in arms now means hands up in surrender, sleeves rolled up for the jab, or cartoon arms up in the air as if to say, "Oh oh oh, pick me me me!"

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  • Wed, Dec 08, 2021 - 6:48pm

    Artep

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    Artep said:

    I woke up sweating w/ chest pain. I later found my sister had similar symptoms. We both saw heart Drs. I asked that a VAERS report be filed. They refused.

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  • Wed, Dec 08, 2021 - 7:29pm

    J

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    J said:

    Good God this makes me sick..when  I was a kid I would never say ...yah..give me a  shot..my parents had to drag me there..how things have changed

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  • Thu, Dec 09, 2021 - 4:07am

    Sandflyone

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    Sandflyone said:

    Things have changed, now it looks as though you will need 6 shots in 18 months.

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  • Thu, Dec 09, 2021 - 6:05am

    Ra.

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    Ra. said:

    If you have read any of my posts you will know I am not totally pro vax or anti vax.

    I do however concur with a halt to vaccination of all our youngsters, this is turning out to be a crime against our youth. They do not have the ability to look through science papers or even look at the discussions appearing here or other similar sites. They are far more reliant on adults for information and even if they did not agree with the ‘do your bit for others in the community’ propaganda they would not have the real debating skills to counter those in authority (parents/guardians or teachers). I am disgusted that we are expecting our youth to protect those of us who can appraise the evidence from severe or even mild disease.

    I think it was a Swansea University studies that uncovered the reason for the Astra Zeneca blood clotting problem ( leakage into the blood stream) which is affecting particularly young people and very soon after the jab. I still beat my aspiration drum. It could at least have mitigated the numbers.

    I would argue this is certainly a factor with all ‘vaccines’ I would further argue that what can harm our young could eventually harm older people with a far slower metabolism. Further to this the elderly have very little muscle mass or much fat and  but would still have veins and arteries present to either pierce or nick. The same length of needle will go deeper into a little arm (young or old).

    As I have said before I have watched my younger sister has had her life decimated by long covid for over a year. I am worried for her long term health, once recovered, as all that inflammation must have done a huge amount of damage. On the flip side my brother - in- law is now on blood thinners for some months to come after a emergency trip to hospital to discover bilateral pulmonary embolisms and thrombi in his legs - He had 2 of the Astra Zeneca jabs. He had no underlying problems that would suggest this outcome.

    Data is cold data without digging deeper as in my previous post on this latest podcast.

     

     

     

     

     

     

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  • Thu, Dec 09, 2021 - 12:07pm

    LesPhelps

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    The other side of the coin

    So, 1200 deaths and 150,000 adverse reactions, with no clear follow up on how many reported incidents were completely vaccine related.

    As I understand it, that includes all the Pfizer doses administered worldwide over a three month period of time.

    One piece of information not heavily discussed is, how many of the people vaccinated during this time, were saved from death or serious covid illnesses by receiving the vaccine?

    Worldwide covid reported deaths are approaching 5.3 million people.  I'm struggling with seeing the vaccine as an issues of comparable magnitude.

    With everything else going on worldwide, the vaccine row seems to be a very bad case of tunnel vision.

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  • Thu, Dec 09, 2021 - 2:09pm

    Robin

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    Robin said:

    There has to be nuance, risk-benefit analysis and context.  The data from the trials showed the NNT (number need to treat) to prevent one COVID case was around 120.  This was during the trial period before vaccine effectiveness waned.

    We really don't know how many lives have been saved.  There were actually more deaths in the treatment group in the trials.  We can't really know from real-world data yet because the data is a mess.  Hospitals under report the vaccinated, PCR cycle thresholds are different for vaccinated vs. unvaccinated, etc. So the data is not reliable at all.

    We also have the issue of  why is all cause mortality higher, and why are COVID cases higher after mass vaccination?

    So we need to look at the risk for different groups of both the COVID or vaccine injuries, then we can determine that one size does not fit all.  Medicine should never be a one size fits all because everyone's risk/benefit is different.

    So, for a frail, nursing home patient, the risk-benefit makes more sense.

    For a healthy, teenage boy who has already had COVID, the risk benefit is very different because there is a risk of myocarditis and little benefit from vaccination.

    We also have to account for the fact that vaccinated can still be infected and transmit (perhaps unknowingly without symptoms), so the benefit to others through vaccination is unknown.

    We also need to account for early treatment options in this benefit analysis, which has NOT been done in western countries at all.

    Bottom line-

    Each person needs to make an informed decision with their doctor looking at their individual risk-benefit and we can't give blanket mandates for the public without causing harm to some with little-no benefit for non-high risk groups.

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  • Thu, Dec 09, 2021 - 2:50pm

    #47
    suziegruber

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    Great Creative Piece on Covid

    I just came across a create creative piece on Covid posted on The Automatic Earth.  Here's an excerpt:

    And after these things I saw another variant come down from heaven, having benign symptoms; and the earth was lightened with its glory.

    And one cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Covid the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the disease of administrations, and the contagion of every foul agency, and a malady of every unclean and hateful bureaucrat.

    For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of their lockdowns and distancings and mandates, and the kings of the earth have become dictators through her, and the pharma corporations of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of their therapies.

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  • Thu, Dec 09, 2021 - 4:16pm

    westcoastjan

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    OMG Les...

    In your privileged world, how many deaths are acceptable? How many adverse events?

    Please do tell us - I really, seriously want to know, want you to reply, just how you are able to rationalize this. As a caring human being.

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  • Thu, Dec 09, 2021 - 4:33pm

    YZ_from_Katy_TX

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    YZ_from_Katy_TX said:

    One piece of information not heavily discussed is, how many of the people vaccinated during this time, were saved from death or serious covid illnesses by receiving the vaccine?

    Exactly. Why do you assume that there were any? It seems to me the data (on VX safety and efficiency) suggests that people survived despite getting the jab rather than due to getting it. If there was any good data showing the jabs save lives, I'm sure we would see it on all TV channels instead of simple assertions

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  • Thu, Dec 09, 2021 - 5:41pm

    Yoxa

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    Death rates vaxxed vs unvaxxed

    If there was any good data showing the jabs save lives, I'm sure we would see it on all TV channels instead of simple assertions

    In my part of the world we DO see it on the media.

    Here's an article with some stats and graphs from the US, UK, Switzerland and Chile that show clear differences in death rates with or without the vaccine.

    How do death rates from COVID-19 differ between people who are vaccinated and those who are not?

    TL/DR: death rates among the unvaccinated are significantly higher

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  • Thu, Dec 09, 2021 - 5:54pm

    DisappearingCulture

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    DisappearingCulture said:

    "The diagnostic test to diagnose myocarditis is a cardiac MRI...."

    MRI is too slow to get a good image of a beating heart [or other organs that move a lot, like small intestines]. That's why CT is used instead, like the cardiac CT calcium score test https://www.radiologyinfo.org/en/info/ct_calscoring

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  • Thu, Dec 09, 2021 - 6:02pm

    #52
    sand_kitty

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    Agree with Yoxa's post above

    And this is the data that my medical friends point to, also.

    These deaths are from COVID, without early treatment, comparing vaccinated and unvaccinated (without clarifying how long since full vaccination--an issue as the vaccine efficacy fades, and strains mutate to escape the vaccine induced immunity reducing its effectiveness over weeks).

    But this is true.  The unvaccinated who get sick with COVID, and who are NOT treated with meds, die of COVID at a higher rate than the unvaccinated.

    Does not include vaccine injuries or the effects of early treatments.

     

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  • Thu, Dec 09, 2021 - 6:14pm

    bsf767

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    …but makes the point less relevant

    And, because that ubiquitous chart does NOT include the variable of early treatment, it makes that data less convincing to me. I would be really curious to see if the results of early treatment were actually better than the vaccines…alas, we may never know, because the standard of care seemed to be “stay home and do nothing until you can’t breathe” 😡

    It’s also intriguing to me that the rates of change are roughly the same. If you change the layout of the data from linear to logarithmic, you see that the curves parallel each other. If the vaccines were truly as effective as claimed, I would think their curve would be much flatter…

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  • Thu, Dec 09, 2021 - 7:26pm

    davefairtex

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    COVID IFR

    TL/DR: death rates among the unvaccinated are significantly higher

    Perhaps Yoxa isn't aware of the actual data on COVID infection fatality rates.

    Yoxa, did you know that the chance of a 10 year old dying from COVID is hard to measure (with Alpha, it was 1:100,000), while the risk of an 85+ dying from covid is about 1:10.

    https://www.acsh.org/news/2020/11/18/covid-infection-fatality-rates-sex-and-age-15163

    So Yoxa.  Who should get the shot?  Everyone?  One size fits all?

    Or should we apply a risk-benefit analysis?

    I'll do "all cause mortality" next.

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  • Thu, Dec 09, 2021 - 10:28pm

    Quercus bicolor

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    I'm tired of this

    So I'm just going put out a few phrases in response to Yoxa (and Les).

    Early treatments

    supplements, exercise and other ways to minimize risk.

    All cause mortality (as opposed to covid mortality).

    Misclassifying deaths and other statistical tricks for example:

    • covid deaths from covid acquired shortly after dose one to "unvaccinated".
    • vaccine injury deaths classified as covid deaths.
    • death with covid as opposed to from covid

    putting the young at risk with vaccines to protect the old.  Half of all deaths 80+, vast majority are 65+, perhaps 15-30% were on deaths doorstep., Covid just happened to be what killed them.

    Les, you never change.  You come into a forum every so often with the same old un-nuanced perspective that ignores the above-mentioned (and some unmentioned) very important and game changing factors.  You are best ignored.  I will do so until your posts show some value.

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  • Thu, Dec 09, 2021 - 11:58pm

    Yoxa

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    Yoxa said:

    Early treatments

    Usually a good idea, for just about any disease or condition.

    Prevention is even better.

    supplements, exercise and other ways to minimize risk.

    Usually a good idea.

    You forgot masks.

    All cause mortality (as opposed to covid mortality).

    Some interesting reading here:

    https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covid19/excess_deaths.htm

    Misclassifying deaths and other statistical tricks for example:

    • covid deaths from covid acquired shortly after dose one to "unvaccinated".

    In Manitoba we call those folks partially vaccinated.

    • vaccine injury deaths classified as covid deaths.

    If that's true and widespread (I'm not convinced) it would inflate the number of (apparent) covid deaths among vaccinated folks and not affect the unvaccinated.  Even if true it's not enough to narrow the gaps in the charts in the article I shared. Percentage-wise, the death rate is higher among unvaccinated folks.

    • death with covid as opposed to from covid

    Either way, death comes early.

    putting the young at risk with vaccines to protect the old.

    It's clear we disagree on the relative risks of the virus vs the vax.

    Half of all deaths 80+, vast majority are 65+, perhaps 15-30% were on deaths doorstep., Covid just happened to be what killed them

    Ahhh, the "sorry, granny" philosophy of public health.

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  • Fri, Dec 10, 2021 - 8:26am

    #57
    davefairtex

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    I guess not

    Clearly Yoxa didn't want to respond to my point about risk stratification.

    I'm going to go out on a limb here.  Is it possible that Yoxa is in the "granny" risk area, with a high IFR, and as a result, she would prefer that the children - who are at vanishingly small risk themselves - be forced to take the shot in an attempt to save her?

    Of course if she knew the shots worked, she wouldn't be worried.  All she would have to do is get the shot herself - along with all the rest of the grannies - and all would be well.

    Because - risk stratification.

    Unfortunately...

    Take the shot to Save Grandma!  Even though - of course - it won't.

    But it sure will help Pfizer's quarterly income statement.

    Yoxa!  Pfizer Shareholders Thank You!

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  • Fri, Dec 10, 2021 - 10:02am

    Steven Kelso

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    Brought to You By Bristol Meyers Squibb & Pfizer

    I've been doing weekly commutes for work and instead of listening to whatever music I like, I just tune into the local stations that I pass through. I noticed two recurring commercials over the last couple months.

    So what are they selling? Nothing directly.

    In fact, the commercials come across as lame public service announcements. So what are they advocating?  Well, you could be experiencing ____, which can lead to more serious conditions, so talk to your doctor.

    • Atrial Fibrillation
    • Deep Vein Thrombosis

    Never in my life have I heard a public campaign against blood clot-related health maladies. Now it's a thing because they made it a thing.

    Don't worry. They care about your health.

    Disclosing Pfizer vaccine data ‘may take until 2096’

    When you've been anticipating collapse for over twenty years and have the knowledge capital of Peak Prosperity for over ten years, there is very little emotional "shell shock" to experience as we stumble down the draw-down staircase. All the ostriches with their heads buried in the sand, unable to make the connections, mired in the quicksand of denial, are not so lucky. I sympathize, but do not empathize their condition.

    They are the ones still holding on. Still trying to perform resuscitation on a corpse. I encourage you to leave them be. Let go of the shore, push-off into the river, and celebrate who is there with you.

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  • Fri, Dec 10, 2021 - 10:23am

    #59
    richcabot

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    It's all a scam!

    Yoxa, Les, really all of us, are forgetting that the vaccines were never necessary.  Uttar Pradesh proved you can stop the plandemic with Ivermectin and basic public health measures to put it in the hands of everyone that's been exposed.

    Vaccines are not the answer.

    We've been gaslighted to the point that we're arguing about the flavor of the kool-aid.

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  • Fri, Dec 10, 2021 - 10:55am

    Phred

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    Masks are causing cognitive dissonance

    It also seems important to Yoxa that everyone wears masks, perhaps because it indicates they are following instructions.   But there was an earlier push to allow the vaxxed to go mask free, which undermines that signal.

    Now many are wearing masks regardless of the directives, as the waning vaccine effectiveness is becoming known.

    So what is one to think upon seeing another with a mask - extra careful vaxxed, or dirty infectious unvaxxed? Best hurry on and not  think about it.

    Maybe that was the plan all along?

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  • Fri, Dec 10, 2021 - 11:26am

    Redneck Engineer

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    Redneck Engineer said:

    I can forgive honest mistakes. When I see reluctance to accept facts challenging the accepted narrative, I can even forgive that to an extent, as some take longer than others to shake off the wrong theory.

    But nobody paying attention at this point can honestly be mistaken. There are many who support the narrative by default because they aren’t paying attention. They parrot the line “follow the science” but have no clue what science is: always follow the data, and challenge any theory that doesn’t agree.

    But I can never forget or forgive those purported experts who clearly have evaded facts for a long time. Regardless of which aspects of the pandemic are planned and accidental, they are not being honest or scientific. They are taking away our liberty and causing major medical, economic, psychological, and sociological damage.

    Damn them all.

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  • Fri, Dec 10, 2021 - 11:29am

    Yoxa

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    Masks

    perhaps because it indicates they are following instructions.

    My, aren't we supercilious!

    Some people ... myself among them ...  wear masks because it's a way to increase the safety of our communities. Why? Because wearing a mask reduces the virus one would spread if one happened to have the virus without knowing it. At the moment that could be any of us.

    Wearing a mask is a way to care for others around us.

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  • Fri, Dec 10, 2021 - 12:03pm

    Kat43

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    Kat43 said:

    Masks really aren't helpful.  Especially the typical cloth or unfitted mask.  There are no good studies showing benefit.  If we are concerned then we need to avoid extended indoor exposure with other people.  Also, there are very affective antiseptic mouth washes/nasal rinses that can greatly cut down the viral load in your upper respiratory tract.  (Ingredients like cetylpyridinium, povidone-iodine, and iota-carageenan)  If we are concerned about others we should do that every time we're about to congregate.

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  • Fri, Dec 10, 2021 - 12:12pm

    Yoxa

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    Yoxa said:

    Clearly Yoxa didn't want to respond to my point about risk stratification.

    Dave, I am constrained by time more than desire.

    In Canada vaccines are not mandated for kids, and if they do get it it's a smaller dose than for adults.

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  • Fri, Dec 10, 2021 - 12:17pm

    Kathy

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    Kathy said:

    I guarantee you my mask aka fashion accessory is more likely to be a reservoir  of bacterial and viral microorganisms than anything protective.  And mine is clean compared to the second grader that lives next door.  Hers is probably also filled with fungus because she forgot to take it off her chin before she went out stopping mushrooms a month ago.

    Hey but let’s keep the fear going and block social emotional development,

    Kathy

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  • Fri, Dec 10, 2021 - 12:23pm

    Yoxa

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    Masks, again

    Masks really aren't helpful.  Especially the typical cloth or unfitted mask.

    The fact that a mask becomes damp from being worn shows that it's capturing droplets from the person's breathing. More droplets on masks and fewer in the air is a good thing.

    Do your nasal rinse or whatever if you want but do it in addition to a mask, not instead of.

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  • Fri, Dec 10, 2021 - 12:32pm

    mirroredname

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    Back to That Either/Or Thinking On Masks?

    Surgeons wear masks and they have for many decades.  They also scrub their arms and hands for 20 minutes with a firm brush and wear gloves during surgery to prevent contamination of the patient.

    Hygiene is a real thing.  We proved it last year when the flu season failed to manifest because everyone was masking, social distancing and washing hands and using hand sanitizer. They have done plenty of research regarding N95 masks and they do protect one against spreading airborne vectors and as well, they protect one from inhaling material from others. There are plenty of videos documenting these finer particles as they exit while someone is talking, sneezing or breathing.

    It is illogical that mask wearing has become an either/or issue. Very young children and college froshmen have been heavily researched for their propensity to breed a lot of flu and other serious diseases when they are grouped together, especially living together in dorms. It has been noted that both groups have poor hygiene.

    They have also done a lot of research on common public surfaces, like in restaurants and they found staph, feces, urine, semen, viruses, and other vectors. Many people do not wash their hands after using the restroom. And this translates across everything they touch.

    For people who have less than perfect health like having asthma, or diabetes, or immunity issues, this creates more disease for them, more time off work, more doctor bills, pharmacy bills, and for those dealing with lung issues, it leaves scarring, and guarantees additional future difficulties with their health. These are all very real consequences for millions of people, which existed well before any Covid-19 issues.

    It was considered a public menace and worthy of pubic scorn should one go out of the house sick because there were no treatments such as penicillin. Spreading disease was a serious social violation and considered worthy of banishment if the illness was serious enough.

    Wearing a mask inside a closed store, or car, with people you don't know, who may have the virus makes sense in a common sense and basic way. And it shows respect for others. I personally do not want to be responsible for making someone else sick. Because there has been no streamlined public health policy regarding Covid-19, and because it has become inappropriately politicized, the practical health concerns are paved over and under by a lot of mixed opinion, many of which are not based in any scientific fact.

    With regards to children, though it is not ideal for them to have to wear masks, thankfully they can stop wearing them once they leave school environments. Six hours per day is a burden, but without early treatment and preventative therapies like Ivermectin, and good public health policies millions are forced to use primitive means to try and self control infection rates and mitigate for corrupt political agendas which have absolutely nothing to do with health.

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  • Fri, Dec 10, 2021 - 12:46pm

    #68
    richcabot

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    Containment Across the World: summaries of local situations

    https://eugyppius.substack.com/p/containment-across-the-world-reader

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  • Fri, Dec 10, 2021 - 12:49pm

    #69
    Kat43

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    Kat43 said:

    Wearing a mask inside a closed store, or car, with people you don't know, who may have the virus makes sense in a common sense and basic way. And it shows respect for others. I personally do not want to be responsible for making someone else sick.

    Cars are too confined.  Your mask is not keeping viral particles from passing through, and very likely you're wearing a mask where they are just shooting out from the side of the mask.  N95 might be fine but that isn't what people are wearing.  Chris is very clear we should stay out of confined spaces like cars if someone else in the car could be infected.

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  • Fri, Dec 10, 2021 - 12:51pm

    TWalker5

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    Masks

    mirredname said:

    “We proved it last year when the flu season failed to manifest because everyone was masking, social distancing and washing hands and using hand sanitizer. They have done plenty of research regarding N95 masks and they do protect one against spreading airborne vectors and as well, they protect one from inhaling material from others.”

    1.  I contend that the flue numbers were down because they were reclassified as COVID cases.

    2.  Out of all the people you see wearing masks, how many are are wearing properly fitted N-95 masks?  In my experience, I’d say less than 1%.  Cloth masks (the vast majority) are merely a talisman or perhaps a virtue signaling device.

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  • Fri, Dec 10, 2021 - 12:58pm

    #71
    Mysterymet

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    I don’t worry about it anymore

    Had the original covid and got over it just fine. Now I just walk around unmasked to give my immune system practice. Haven’t been able to catch it again even after prolonged exposure in a small office for someone with the dreaded delta variant. Not even a sniffle.

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  • Fri, Dec 10, 2021 - 1:23pm

    #72
    Pappy

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    How did we survive as a species for so long without masks?

    So if I don't wear a mask, I don't care about others? Talk about virtue screaming, geez...

    For anyone who says "wearing a mask shows you care about others", I respond with "go pound sand, idiot."

     

    I wonder how we have luckily survived for the last 10,000+ years as societal humans without our cloth or paper masks. I truly do. Or how the primates survived and evolved into humans without a two-layered cloth mask.

    Must have been the biggest, luckiest fluke in evolutionary mammalian biology that germs spread from unmasked primate and human faces via respiration hasn't wiped us all out. Thank god we beat those odds for so many millennia and are just now waking up.

    And how cavalier and degenerate of me for not realizing that masks are how I show I care about our fellow humans.  I suppose I should be stoned to death for not constantly hiding my face behind an ill-fitting piece of paper with ear loops.

     

    We are supposed to spread germs to each other, not rebreathe in our exhaled CO2 and keep a moist bacteria laden cloth over our airholes for hours on end.

    Our immune systems, particularly the children and young adults, are supposed to get hammered with all sorts of pathogens.  That's how a robust and species-wide adapted immunity develops.  We are actually in symbiosis with pathogens, we give them life, they train our bodies to defend and adapt to the existence of one another.

    It's a profoundly beautiful thing to harbor bacteria, flora and viruses within our bodies.  To fight off the really bad strains and allow them to evolve and become less damaging and virulent so we may live together in harmony.

    Hell, some of them might actually stick around and, I don't know, aid us with digestion in the alimentary canal.  But I could be just an uncaring person who appreciates the complex and nuanced existence of all life working together to exist.

     

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  • Fri, Dec 10, 2021 - 1:52pm

    #73
    richcabot

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    All cause mortality up in Germany

    https://alexberenson.substack.com/p/all-cause-mortality-in-germany-is/comments

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  • Fri, Dec 10, 2021 - 2:01pm

    richcabot

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    Masks cause disease in the wearer

    My wife is required to wear a mask for her employment.  She developed recurring bacterial infections in her eyes.  She has since found ways to isolate and remove her mask for limited periods during the work day.  The infections have subsided.

    Masks also have been proven to negatively affect psychological and intellectual development in children, even when only worn by the parents and teachers.  The inability to see others facial expressions profoundly impacts emotional development.  We are creating a generation of emotionally stunted children with lasting impacts on our society at large.

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  • Fri, Dec 10, 2021 - 2:04pm

    2retired

    2retired

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    2retired said:

    An interesting preprint using English data showing how data is manipulated and that there is no apparent mortality benefit from the vaccines (excluding the initial mortality effects)

    https://www.researchgate.net/publication/356756711_Latest_statistics_on_England_mortality_data_suggest_systematic_mis-categorisation_of_vaccine_status_and_uncertain_effectiveness_of_Covid-19_vaccination

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  • Fri, Dec 10, 2021 - 3:24pm

    Yoxa

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    Yoxa said:

    wonder how we have luckily survived for the last 10,000+ years as societal humans without our cloth or paper masks.

    I invite you to ponder some of the plagues of centuries past. In Europe the Black Plague killed 40% of the population. In North America, the death rate from diseases introduced by European invaders was twice that.

    So if I don't wear a mask, I don't care about others? Talk about virtue screaming, geez...

    It would depend on the context but sorry, sometimes that's exactly what I think. Not wearing a mask outdoors on the street, likely not a problem. Refuse to wear a mask when you're in the grocery store picking up supplies or running in to the post office to get your mail? You're a jerk.

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  • Fri, Dec 10, 2021 - 4:46pm

    Pappy

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    Just so we're clear...

    ...I prefer asshole to jerk.

    I'll reserve the words I have to describe you as remaining within my inner dialogue.

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  • Fri, Dec 10, 2021 - 5:21pm

    davefairtex

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    oh my

    Dave, I am constrained by time more than desire.

    Really?  This is imperfectly-supported by your response to 4 other people within the last 12 hours.

    But that's ok.  No response is actually a response.  In this case, your non-response confirms that Yoxa = a high risk group.  "Babies need to take the shot to save me personally."

    Fear does strange things to people.  It makes people willing to inflict lifetime damage on a substantial number of 5 year olds so that a granny with maybe 5-10 years left will be able to dodge the Plague for (best case) another six months.

    Did I post the key chart from that country-wide study on VE from Sweden?

    Sorry granny.  You'll sacrifice a bunch of children, and it will buy you maybe six months.

    Best case.

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  • Fri, Dec 10, 2021 - 5:24pm

    Yoxa

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    For your reading pleasure

    Pappy, here's a few nuggets for your reading pleasure:

    Do face masks work? Here are 49 scientific studies that explain why they do

    https://www.kxan.com/news/coronavirus/do-face-masks-work-here-are-49-scientific-studies-that-explain-why-they-do/

    Effectiveness of Mask Wearing to Control Community Spread of SARS-CoV-2 

    https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2776536

    An evidence review of face masks against COVID-19

    https://www.pnas.org/content/118/4/e2014564118

    Large Study Confirms Masks Work to Limit COVID-19 Spread

    https://www.webmd.com/lung/news/20210907/masks-limit-covid-spread-study

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  • Fri, Dec 10, 2021 - 5:37pm

    davefairtex

    davefairtex

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    summarize

    Yoxa!

    How about you summarize for us what the risk reduction for infection is for a:

    1) a cloth mask

    2) a surgical mask

    3) an N95 mask

    4) an N99 mask

    Also - if you are COVID-positive, but aren't sneezing and coughing, what's the risk reduction to others if you wear a mask?  [All 4 types]

    Details matter.  Fauci demands a "Gold Standard Randomized Clinical Trial" for Ivermectin.  All things being equal, the same thing should apply to masks too.  All four types of masks.  If cloth masks don't work, we shouldn't be mandating them.

    I am eagerly awaiting your response.

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  • Fri, Dec 10, 2021 - 5:38pm

    #81
    JimboJim

    JimboJim

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    Child psychiatrist weighs in on observed impacts of making children wear masks in school

    All of you that advocate that children wear masks, please listen to this interview of a child psychiatrist describes the horrible impacts this practice is having on our youth.

    The whole segment is worth watching, but the child mask segment starts at about 9 mins.

     

    https://unityprojectonline.com/webinar/podcast-covid-19-and-vaccine-observations-from-pediatric-specialists/

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  • Fri, Dec 10, 2021 - 5:42pm

    mirroredname

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    mirroredname said:

    Masks it seems, are still very much a hotbed issue based on comments here. My point of others who aren't blessed with so vigorous and active immune systems, which is a statistic higher in number than you may think - i.e., according to Robert F. Kennedy in his book The Real Doctor Fauci, approximately 54% of children now have chronic disease. And there are nearly as many adults, especially as they age. "Health" is an ever changing state throughout one's lifetime, and it is affected by environmental factors, genetic factors, economics, lifestyle, and others.

    "For people who have less than perfect health like having asthma, or diabetes, or immunity issues, this creates more disease for them, more time off work, more doctor bills, pharmacy bills, and for those dealing with lung issues, it leaves scarring, and guarantees additional future difficulties with their health. These are all very real consequences for millions of people, which existed well before any Covid-19 issues." And this is my main point. It's how we impact others as we pass them by
    without noticing them when out in the world. For those living with a less than perfect body, I guarantee they have to notice you.

    As someone, who has had to be constantly aware and take full responsibility every day for my health because my immune system is not 100%, being around others who have no need to pay attention to or be aware or concerned with their health, or anyone else's, because they are fortunate to have good health, places a lot of extra effort on those who do have to be concerned for what others are doing around them. And this has been continuously happening everywhere all throughout time for people who do have to worry about flu, or Covid or any other infectious disease because it can kill them.

    As someone who has had to mitigate other's behaviors for the sake of keeping what health I have, I can relate to people who aren't perfect. I personally don't see it as a you vs. me issue. It's really a question of do we as a society want any kind of "we," which seems to be so lacking in discourses today? How each of us interacts with the world does have a direct impact on what kind of world we make together.
    I personally choose to extend to others respect and regard when I can.

    And lastly, while the human species has survived to the present, it did so with the average life-span being rather short - about 36 years for most of the last 4 million years. Surviving the world was hard won, and greatly helped by advances in hygiene and better nutrition, according to research. They are esteemed as the two main differences responsible for extending life-spans, as discussed in RFK's new book.

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  • Fri, Dec 10, 2021 - 5:48pm

    Mpup

    Mpup

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    Wearing a mask

    I'm glad I live in Florida.  For those who think a person driving in a car wearing a mask is an idiot, please don't jump to conclusions.  I recently drove an elderly neighbor to the store.  She just had cataract surgery.  In defference/respect for her wishes I too wore a mask.  First time in months.   There are times a mask is appropriate.

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  • Fri, Dec 10, 2021 - 5:51pm

    Yoxa

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    Dave

    Dave, I shared an article with some stats about death rates in vaxxed vs unvaxxed covid cases after someone questioned whether such data exists. I said nothing either for or against vaccines for children.

    Six months? Based on family history my financial planners tell me I should plan for forty more years.

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  • Fri, Dec 10, 2021 - 6:05pm

    westcoastjan

    westcoastjan

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    re dose for kids in Canada

    In Canada vaccines are not mandated for kids, and if they do get it it's a smaller dose than for adults.

    Please provide credible, verifiable data to back up that assertion.

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  • Fri, Dec 10, 2021 - 6:17pm

    davefairtex

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    then i have no clue

    Six months? Based on family history my financial planners tell me I should plan for forty more years.

    I am happy you managed to "find time" to respond.

    I am perplexed why you are so enthusiastic to force-vaccinate children, who have nigh-upon-zero risk of dying from COVID19.  I was forced to dig deep to find a rationale for you to engage in such thinking.  I admit it - I was wrong.  You aren't a granny.

    Now I must confess - I'm on empty.  If your motive is not a selfish one, I'm totally lost.  Why would a rational, thinking, moral person force a vaccine on a nation of children who are at near-zero-risk for said disease?  Especially since said vaccine "works" for at best six months?  Before another injury-inducing series of shots must be again imposed to provide ephemeral protection to the at-risk-granny population?

    A culture that sacrifices their children is a very sick culture.  I just can't understand the thinking, so I start grasping at straws to explain it.  It is just so utterly immoral.

    Old Testament.  Exodus 20, verse 13: "Thou Shalt Not Kill."

    And in many other cultures and places around the world.  Same precept.

    Modified by me: "Thou shalt not kill children."

    I really just don't get it.

    [EDIT]

    Steve Kirsch: we'll kill 117 children to "save one life" from COVID.  "Vaccinating" children harms children.  Who aren't at risk from COVID19.

    https://stevekirsch.substack.com/p/we-will-kill-117-kids-to-save-one

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  • Fri, Dec 10, 2021 - 6:50pm

    Mark_BC

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    Mark_BC said:

    I invite you to ponder some of the plagues of centuries past. In Europe the Black Plague killed 40% of the population. In North America, the death rate from diseases introduced by European invaders was twice that.

    The plague was caused by flea bites from infected rats. It went away but there's still rats around. Same with most all of the other deadly historical diseases, they all went away mostly because of increased general hygeine. We are left with malaria, rabies and a few other tropical diseases / parasites that aren't controlled by hygeine.

    The cloth masks make little if any impact against Covid spread; the droplets are too small. They are being used as a social oppression tool to force people to not forget about this deadly plandemic circling the globe, which most people would forget about like they do with the flu, if it weren't for the masks since it is so deadly. [/sarc]

    The reason surgeons wear face diapers is because they are directly overtop open woulds and the larger spit particles they make when speaking would go straight into the wound. Those particles are too large to spread between average people walking past each other in the store, even maskless.

    The social impacts and other health problems from mandatory face diapers are far worse than any benefit they may provide. Instead there are much more effective ways to address Covid that we all talk about here, but that aren't being instituted for obvious reasons -- because they work.

    If some new Covid variant shows up with lower than 99.9% survival rate of the current virus, then maybe we can split hairs about the purported benefit of forced mask wearing. Until then, whatev's.

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  • Fri, Dec 10, 2021 - 7:18pm

    #88
    Yoxa

    Yoxa

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    Perplexed

    I am perplexed why you are so enthusiastic to force-vaccinate children

    I am perplexed why you project things on to me that I did not say.  This isn't the first time you've done that.

    Some links for Jan:

    https://www.ctvnews.ca/health/coronavirus/feds-have-no-plans-to-extend-vaccine-mandate-to-kids-duclos-1.5673952

    COVID-19 vaccines for kids: What Canadian parents should know

    https://www.canada.ca/en/public-health/services/vaccination-children/covid-19.html

    "This vaccine for children has a smaller dose than the vaccine for those 12 years of age and older."

     

     

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  • Fri, Dec 10, 2021 - 7:29pm

    Mark_BC

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    Mark_BC said:

    Just like Bonnie Henry earlier this year told us there was no way the vaccine would be mandatory. Once we reach 80% vaccination we'd get to herd immunity, then the virus would go away and we'd get back to normal.

    How'd that work out? That's how they do it. They start off softly so as to not alarm people. Then people get used to whatever dictate they are contemplating. Then they inject some fear porn and use that as an opportunity to ratchet up the controls and affronts to freedom. Like a frog boiling in the pot.

    Now Bonnie doesn't make any mention of herd immunity. Now instead they are talking about perpetual 6 month boosters, which essentially are mandatory since you can't have a successful career without it.

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  • Fri, Dec 10, 2021 - 7:42pm

    #90
    gkcjrrt

    gkcjrrt

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    You're right Dave

    A culture that sacrifices their children is a very sick culture.

    Very, very sick, indeed, and here in the USA, we've been doing nigh on 50 years now.

    JP II named it the "culture of death".  We really shouldn't be surprised at the atrocities that are being committed today and are yet to come.  We've had 50 years of practice.

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  • Fri, Dec 10, 2021 - 7:48pm

    Quercus bicolor

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    Cloth masks

    Or a way for us folks who know that nothing short of a well fitted N95 makes any meaningful difference to avoid someone hassling us with minimal interference with our breathing.

    Yoxa, that moisture is probably mostly condensation from your warm, moist breath encountering the somewhat cooler mask.

    In deciding whether or not to wear or require masks, we need to consider the following:

    1. There are no well-conducted studies demonstrating that cloth or surgical masks reduce transmission by any meaningful amount.
    2. N95 masks do work but wearing for any length of time is both painful, makes the face sore and decreases blood O2 and increases blood CO2 levels.
    3. The blood gas issues are there to a lesser degree with cloth and surgical masks.
    4. Masks create separation and social isolation.  They make it more difficult to understand speech and nearly impossible to interpret facial expression.  This is a problem for all of us, but especially for children who are still learning the skill of face-to-face communication.  The social and psychological costs of this pandemic are, as best I can tell, huge, will impact us for decades to come and are mostly ignored.
    5. Masks increase the risks of bacterial respiratory vaccinations.
    6. Masks cause acne (my 16 year old daughter clearly demonstrates this).
    7. There are complexities to mask physics.  For example, they redirect airflow to the side.  Both the turbulence caused by the mask and the interaction of larger drops impacting the mask fibers can in some situations break up larger droplets into smaller ones that then exit the mask.  While larger droplets would fall to the ground within a meter or two, smaller ones may stay suspended for minutes.

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  • Fri, Dec 10, 2021 - 8:35pm

    westcoastjan

    westcoastjan

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    Yes, but...

    Thank you for the links, Yoxa. I am disappointed that all you can do is provide links to MSM reports. CTV and Global News have proven time and again to be nothing but narrative pushers. And Health Canada is not much better.... Surely you can expand your research horizons?!?

    How about the following for starters:

    https://www.canadiancovidcarealliance.org/media-resources/protecting-our-children-from-covid-19-vaccines/

    https://vaccinechoicecanada.com/media/accurate-misleading-and-dishonest-statements-by-bcs-pho/

    https://www.covid19immunitytaskforce.ca/low-transmission-of-sars-cov-2-observed-in-kindergarten-to-grade-12-schools-in-british-columbia/

    https://www.homevaccineeducationnetwork.com/kids_covid_flyer

    https://learntherisk.org/

    I could furnish significant numbers of more links.... the point being made is that I have learned the hard way that I (we) can no longer trust what the MSM, Health Canada, CDC, FDA or WHO are telling us. We therefore have to do our own due diligence, largely in the independent media, which is not captured or beholden to the medical industrial complex for its existence. Research takes time and effort, something that I find many people are unwilling to do, to their detriment. I know that many of us on this site, me included, have spent thousands of hours doing research re the pandemic, which turned out to be a plandemic/scamdemic - choose your fav descriptor.

    This is not a game. These injections have clearly been shown to kill and disable. I do not gamble with my life. I should not be required by my government to gamble with my life. Our Charter of Rights protects me (us) from such overreach. Where there is risk their must be choice, and above all, informed consent. And the only way we can make good choices it by having access to ALL the data on both sides of the story so that we can weigh the risks and benefits for ourselves and loved ones based on each unique risk profile. There is no one size fits all when it comes to the jabs.

    I really would like to see you (and others, like Les and Doug) to do better job of giving us credible info to back up the things that you say. PP is often accused of being an echo chamber, which I do not believe to be true at all. The problem is that those who tend to lob those kind of accusations do not provide sufficient data-backed counter arguments when participating in discussions. And when asked for data they do not respond or keep arguing based on their deeply held belief system. They typically do not supply us with asked for data that would serve to refute information that has been presented.

    I think it is safe to say that, at least as far as SARS CoV-2, Covid-19 and the jabs are concerned, we very much want to be wrong about all that we have discovered in the past 20 months. We want the jabs to be safe and effective, to protect us from this virus! We want to be able to trust what our governments and health authorities are telling us. But we can't.... there have been too many lies, too much deceit, too many moved goal posts.  And there is too much evidence to back all of that up.

    So please, if you want to get more traction here, bring the data with your comments.

     

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  • Fri, Dec 10, 2021 - 11:20pm

    #93
    TXalchemist

    TXalchemist

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    6

    Tricks of the clinical trial trade

    I highly recommend y'all take a look at Dr. David Healy talking about the analogy between how Pfizer and others tested and reported trials of SSRIs for treating depression, and how vaccine trials are being reported.  He reviews a number of tricks of the trade and shows specific examples of where those tricks have been used in the vaccine trials.  I have read a lot about the trials but this was a bunch of new info for me.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=__txrmOAUyo

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  • Sat, Dec 11, 2021 - 3:24am

    davefairtex

    davefairtex

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    that's a relief

    I am perplexed why you project things on to me that I did not say. This isn't the first time you've done that.

    Well that's a relief.  So you are against forced vaccination of children for COVID19.  You aren't into sacrificing children to save grandma.  You don't agree with Fauci on this matter.

    That's really nice to hear.

    Others in Canada - in what appears to be the Official Narrative - are not nearly as humane and science-driven:

    https://www.theglobeandmail.com/canada/article-debate-grows-over-mandatory-covid-19-vaccines-for-children/

    There is clear consensus in the medical community that any COVID-19 vaccine approved for children under 12 in Canada would be safe and effective, but some officials have advocated for delaying making inoculation a condition of going to school.

    One of the most high-profile votes of confidence in childhood vaccine mandates came in September, when Toronto’s Medical Officer of Health, Eileen de Villa, said COVID-19 vaccines should be added to Ontario’s list of required immunizations for school. Although she does not have jurisdiction over provincial health matters, her words reverberated throughout the province.

    Proposing to sacrifice children - to use them as some sort of "shield" for others - is just horrific.  Really glad that - unlike other Canadian officials - you aren't in favor of forced vaccinations for children for COVID19.

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  • Sat, Dec 11, 2021 - 8:51am

    #95
    pgp

    pgp

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    Posts: 183

    1

    Extremism or Truth

    I think PP must be reading the reports upside down.  If you look at all institutional (yes institutional data) from Australia, USA, Europe there is NO evidence that the data is "not good".   But I guess it's good click-bait to say so.    Clearly a whole world of medical professionals must be conspiring to be wrong and PP is the soothsayer - hooray for blind ignorance.

    Shame on you PP - you are a few choice words away from becoming an extremist organization.

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  • Sat, Dec 11, 2021 - 10:55am

    westcoastjan

    westcoastjan

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    Joined: Jun 04 2012

    Posts: 1463

    15

    My goodness!

    Shame on you PP - you are a few choice words away from becoming an extremist organization.

    Wow, that is quite an astounding statement to make. One that is wildly unfounded and without merit, as well.

    Nothing to see here folks, other than an attempt to stir things up. Don't bite. It is not worth the time or effort to engage, IMHO. I'd rather give my time and energy to more productive discussions.....

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  • Sat, Dec 11, 2021 - 11:32am

    2donks

    2donks

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    Posts: 36

    18

    2donks said:

    pgp said:

    Clearly a whole world of medical professionals must be conspiring to be wrong and PP is the soothsayer

    No, I think the majority of medical professionals are just lazy and repeat what they're fed...
    "safe and effective"
    "go home and come back when you're ready for a ventilator"
    "Brawndo has what plants crave. It's got electrolytes"

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  • Sat, Dec 11, 2021 - 12:08pm

    Stewart

    Stewart

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    Posts: 279

    7

    Stewart said:

    Clearly you haven’t watched the video. The data is directly from Pfizer. Nice try though.

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  • Sat, Dec 11, 2021 - 12:39pm

    Kathy

    Kathy

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    23

    When everyone is an extremist…

    Shame on you PP - you are a few choice words away from becoming an extremist organization.

    Parent that don’t want their daughters raped in school bathrooms by boys in skirts are now considered extremists.

    Heck, people who believe businesses shouldn’t be able to dictate medical treatments are extremists.

    Guess I am an extremist.  Good that I have lots of company, which maybe indicates that my ideas aren’t all that extreme and the term extremism, like racism, is being used as a cudgel to shut down free speech.

    Kathy

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  • Sat, Dec 11, 2021 - 12:59pm

    2retired

    2retired

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    14

    2retired said:

    Gaslighting attacks (extremist labelling), service disruptions, trolls, maybe more people are questioning the narrative after all(?) and the Pharma cabal is pulling out whatever tricks it can.

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  • Sat, Dec 11, 2021 - 1:25pm

    GBruno1600

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    10

    That is the true purpose of such "false labeling" and "false identities".

    To shut down any reasonable and rational debate and discussion.

    Logical fallacies are how the "Cabal" protects its "false narratives".

    Without such censorship and trickery, the actual facts and the truth would be a strong wind that would completely destroy their carefully crafted but fragile "House of Cards".

     

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  • Sat, Dec 11, 2021 - 1:57pm

    nordicjack

    nordicjack

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    Joined: Feb 03 2020

    Posts: 774

    24

    Medical Professionals are not ignorant - they are criminal

    pgp said:

    Clearly a whole world of medical professionals must be conspiring to be wrong and PP is the soothsayer

    No, I think the majority of medical professionals are just lazy and repeat what they're fed...
    "safe and effective"
    "go home and come back when you're ready for a ventilator"
    "Brawndo has what plants crave. It's got electrolytes"

    I watched a video clip of young woman maybe 30. I wish I would have copied the link now.  She was stating how angry she would be after she read "conspiracy theory" this and that on social media , and thought why are such idiots so ignorant.   ( again, there is no gain for these "conspiracy theorists" except to wake people up)  Then she learned the hard way through experience with her husband being vaccine injured with heart damage.  She stated , at first, all the doctors told her it was from the vaccine, but it was all backed peddled and showed not to be on all the records.  She found a good doctor who admitted that it was from the vaccine and really wanted to help her.  All she wanted was a medical exemption for the second shot - as her husband's heart was destroyed with just the first. But the doctor politely told her how he knew it was the vaccine and how he so wanted to help her, but he could not because if he wrote an exemption, he would be investigated and likely could lose his license.   So, doctors do not put the patient's health first, even when the know its criminal. they still worry about their pockets.   This is the true reality of what is happening.

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  • Sat, Dec 11, 2021 - 2:29pm

    Ision

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    You Want People To Do Bad Things? Pay Them, Or Pay Who Pays Them. Simple.

    One does not need to REASON with doctors, and convince each one, to withhold drugs, withhold treatments, and to withhold the Truth, from their ignorant patients.

    All one needs to do is to give financial incentives for those, who do as you wish, and for those, who set medical policy and pay the doctors.  Then, provide financial incentives to punish those, who ignore the bribes and dare attempt to tell the Truth.

    You bribe the person, who has the power to make policy, and make it stick, then demand the policy be rigidly followed, under the threat of direct punishment for failing to do so.

    Then, watch how fast most people will "follow orders" and take the money, which goes a long way to soothing their "feelings," as they watch the suffering of their patients by their hand.   After all, they didn't become a doctor because they  like to hear the moaning and watch people in suffering pain...or, out of some Altruistic notion...but, out of a desire to make good money, while enjoying the social prestige.

    If the Hospital tells them not to treat suspected COVID19 patients until they become chronic, or, the only treatment they are permitted to provide is a 5 day regimen of Rendesivir, and to place their patients on a respirator, just as soon as they can...they will, with the full knowledge of what they are doing...is WRONG.

    It is a rare person, who cannot be bought, or who is impervious to social pressure and the threat of professional and financial punishment, who will do the RIGHT THING...never-the-less.

    Note:   If a hospital will fire all those who refuse to be vaxxed, that hospital shall shortly be staffed ONLY by those, who were stupid enough to accept the toxic jab, and who have swallowed the fictional narratives printed on their glossy medical flyers.

     

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  • Sat, Dec 11, 2021 - 2:52pm

    gkcjrrt

    gkcjrrt

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    11

    Exactly our current problem....

    You Want People To Do Bad Things? Pay Them, Or Pay Who Pays Them. Simple.

    And this applies to anything and everything.  Gov, with it's unlimited access to fiat "money" via the Fed can print and fund any and everything they want w/o input from the voters.  This is an end run around representative democracy and rule of law.

    TPTB control the money and until that ends, I don't see how they are defeated.

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  • Sat, Dec 11, 2021 - 11:10pm

    Quercus bicolor

    Status: Gold Member

    Joined: Mar 19 2008

    Posts: 1167

    8

    Smaller dose. So what?

    "This vaccine for children has a smaller dose than the vaccine for those 12 years of age and older."

    Does that prove it's safe for children in the absence of real world data?  Even with all of the suppression and the very real threats of loss of income for reporting vaccine injuries, I've already seen at least a dozen cases of myocarditis reported in children.

    And check this out: compiled from mandatory emails from my school regarding cases of covid in each school:

    The elementary school case rate relative to county-wide case rates surged the week of November 8 (weekly chart not shown).  While the middle and high school cases went up by a smaller amount starting the week of November 24.

    Hmmm, what started happening to elementary school kids the week of November 1?

    Could it be .... vaccinations?  It certainly would support the data from Israel which shows a surge or 4 to 5x in cases in the weeks following dose one.  This chart was inspired by a written report from a person in another state about a similar phenomenon in their local school district.

    My notes on things I need to research:

    1. Are Elementary school cases recently vaccinated (from dose 1 to one week after dose 2)?
    2. Are late November and December middle and high school cases close contacts of Elementary school cases (perhaps family members/siblings)?
    3. Have there been any changes in background testing rates over time?
    4. Are there differences in background testing rates between schools?
    5. Could high school cases be close contacts of undetected elementary school cases?

    I also intend to contact people I know with children in other districts.  For those of you with Children in a public school system, I suggest you compile a similar data set from any emails you might have received.

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  • Sun, Dec 12, 2021 - 2:53am

    Yoxa

    Yoxa

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    1

    False dichotomy much?

    You aren't into sacrificing children to save grandma.

    False dichotomy.

    Dave, understand this: I did not express an opinion one way or another. Stop making stuff up. When you attribute things to me that I did not say, and indulge in conjecture which is sometimes true, sometimes flat wrong, that makes makes me wonder what else you say has been slanted and twisted to suit your own narrative.

    Really glad that - unlike other Canadian officials - you aren't in favor

    That wording makes it sound as if you think I'm some sort of official. I'm not.

    a few choice words away from becoming an extremist organization

    Yup.

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  • Sun, Dec 12, 2021 - 4:46am

    Canuckian

    Canuckian

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    11

    Canuckian said:

    Masks create separation and social isolation. They make it more difficult to understand speech and nearly impossible to interpret facial expression. This is a problem for all of us, but especially for children who are still learning the skill of face-to-face communication. The social and psychological costs of this pandemic are, as best I can tell, huge, will impact us for decades to come and are mostly ignored.

    I think this could be really frightening. Could it lead to many or the majority of people completely lacking empathy? I.e. a very high rate of sociopathy?

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  • Sun, Dec 12, 2021 - 4:50am

    Canuckian

    Canuckian

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    Posts: 248

    9

    Canuckian said:

    Three months after the vaccine, I developed telogen effluvium and quickly lost about 25% of my hair.

    I've heard this from several women, in addition to irregular periods.

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  • Sun, Dec 12, 2021 - 7:35am

    richcabot

    richcabot

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    8

    Rothschild said

    Rothschild said "give me control of the money and I care not who writes the laws."

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  • Sun, Dec 12, 2021 - 8:17am

    GBruno1600

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    5

    Why?

    Because "Their" own actulal "Golden Rule" is that he who owns the gold can pervert and make any laws they ever need to rule and call all the tunes, most especially, with todays "Fiat" currency just made out of thin air!

    What a deal!

    All since Waterloo, the "Cabal" has had the means to implement their plan of Dominion.

     

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  • Sun, Dec 12, 2021 - 10:06am

    Andy in the Sun

    Andy in the Sun

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    1

    Please find the video

    @ nordijack

    please find the video, crawl through your browser history if you can remember approximately when you have seen it. I am sure many of us here would like to have that video.

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  • Sun, Dec 12, 2021 - 5:04pm

    davefairtex

    davefairtex

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    18

    more than welcome

    Yoxa-

    You of course are more than welcome to say what you are in favor of.  That would put a screeching halt to all my guessing.

    If you don't, I'm going to keep on ascribing positions to you, you will refute some of them (the shock!  the horror!), and not others, and by process of elimination I'll be able to figure out what you really think.

    Its a bit more efficient for you to just say what you think.  Then we can have an honest discussion.

    For instance, Les states what he thinks.  He's very forthright about it.  I respect him for that.  Even if I don't agree with him on some things - that's ok.  I don't mind.  He's honest about it.

    Perhaps it takes a certain amount of bravery to say what you really think.  Especially if you know already that others don't agree.  Not everyone is this brave.

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  • Sun, Dec 12, 2021 - 5:31pm

    thesecuritygirl

    thesecuritygirl

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    Posts: 223

    12

    Yoxa stop quoting MSM SHIT

    Yoxa, The stuff you keep cutting is all from MSM!  It’s shit.  It’s all propaganda bullshit. Please save yourself and stop.

    honestly, put back on your mask and booster up and enjoy your life.  This is probably a crowd you don’t wanna hang around. Unfortunately for you horses have already left the barn!

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  • Sun, Dec 12, 2021 - 6:28pm

    Primary Care_MD

    Primary Care_MD

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    Posts: 301

    20

    the video link you were looking for

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  • Sun, Dec 12, 2021 - 7:06pm

    Andy in the Sun

    Andy in the Sun

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    6

    Andy in the Sun said:

    Many thanks MD,

    I have to admit that I get slowly tired of all the ignorance around me, but I still like to collect the stuff as it comes. Just to have some evidences... and in case some overzealous admin pushes the block/delete button.

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  • Sun, Dec 12, 2021 - 7:50pm

    Quercus bicolor

    Status: Gold Member

    Joined: Mar 19 2008

    Posts: 1167

    8

    Smaller dose again

    Like, for example, Yoxa, you keep mentioning a smaller dose for children without giving any other details.  What are you implying? Could it be "Of course it's safe for children because it's a SMALLER dose.  No need to gather real world data to determine it's ACTUAL effects."?  I hope not, but I can't think of any other reason for your statement.  We all know it's the real world impacts that matter and nobody really understands dosing and adverse events for these vaccines for adults, much less for kids for which there is much less data.

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  • Sun, Dec 12, 2021 - 8:42pm

    westcoastjan

    westcoastjan

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    Joined: Jun 04 2012

    Posts: 1463

    8

    For Yoxa - One minute of pure gold!

    A short one-minute clip of the real Bonnie Henry, the top doc in BC, blatantly lying. Are you sure this is where you want to continue to place your trust?!?

    Bonnie vs. Bonnie

    Time to wake up to the reality that your government lies, cheats and deceives.

     

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  • Mon, Dec 13, 2021 - 3:22am

    Yoxa

    Yoxa

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    1

    Yoxa said:

    Yoxa, you keep mentioning a smaller dose

    I can't think of any other reason for your statement.

    I mentioned it once to report a fact, in response to someone else's comments. Two facts, actually: the one being that Canada is not (at the time of writing) mandating vaccines for kids, and the other being that if they do get it the dose is smaller. Make of that what you will, it's our situation at the moment.

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  • Mon, Dec 13, 2021 - 3:35am

    Yoxa

    Yoxa

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    1

    Bonnie

    Jan, I'd want to see the complete contexts that those clips were taken from before I passed judgement. It's impossible to tell from that video whether they are being presented fairly or not.

    Note that reserving judgement about that video does not mean that I believe our government consists only of saints.

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  • Mon, Dec 13, 2021 - 5:01am

    Yoxa

    Yoxa

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    3

    Saying what I think

    Its a bit more efficient for you to just say what you think.

    How about this? No one is a slower learner than the man who thinks he already knows it all.

    Here's one thing that I think: there's a lot of Koolaid sloshing around this forum. A different flavour than mine, but Koolaid nonetheless.

    Some days the comments are a swamp of misinformation. One simple example was a recent comment about carbon dioxide building up behind a mask. That's false. CO2 passes in and out of a mask just the same as all the other gases in the air you're breathing. If it didn't, you would die in short order.

    Les states what he thinks

    Yes, and too often the response he gets is a tsunami of sarcasm and ad hominem attacks instead of fair discussion of the points he raises. That's not the way to discern truth.

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  • Mon, Dec 13, 2021 - 5:12am

    Yoxa

    Yoxa

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    4

    Yoxa said:

    I guarantee you my mask aka fashion accessory is more likely to be a reservoir  of bacterial and viral microorganisms than anything protective.

    I recommend the ancient ritual called "laundry".

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  • Mon, Dec 13, 2021 - 5:19am

    sand_kitty

    sand_kitty

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    25

    I agree with Yoxa on this

    When I post my early treatment (ivermectin) stuff on the facebook emergency physicians page I'm often met with a tsunami of insulting, derogatory ad hominum attacks.  (Of course the personal attacks are often couched in "facts" and "Science!")   It is painful and very discouraging.  Clearly it has the effect of stifling discussion.

    When Yoxa, Doug and Less post something outside of the PP members typical belief package, they are often barraged with the same kind of hostility.  Lots of emotional energy directed at them.

    Please let them just have their own viewpoint.  Let them be different.

    We don't have to fix them or drag them into our box.  They can be PP renegades, thinking in their own way, and remain valuable friends.

    In the months to come, who knows when we may need to borrow a cup of sugar or a chain saw from them.  We need them in our tribe even with different belief structures.

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  • Mon, Dec 13, 2021 - 5:23am

    Arthur Robey

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    Posts: 1795

    7

    Don't you dare, Yoxa.

    I am the one who owns crazy corner, not you. 😊

    Speak your mind, fellow. (Would you like a little lemonade?)

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  • Mon, Dec 13, 2021 - 6:20am

    davefairtex

    davefairtex

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    26

    gaslighting

    I think part of the problem is that when the MSM and the gang in charge gaslight us for two years - with said gaslighting resulting in actual injury and death for millions around the globe - when someone comes along and continues in the role of the abusers: "there are no treatments for COVID19", or perhaps "the vaccines are safe and effective" while ignoring all data to the contrary, the serially gaslit people who now know they have been gaslit for two years solid (and maybe have had friends or family members killed or injured by this same gaslighting) - they react poorly to ... yet more gaslighting.

    Same would happen if a former POW was then tortured by someone after their captivity ended.  They would "react poorly" to yet more torture.

    If someone wants to come here and just channel the gaslighters - I will respond poorly to being gaslit yet again.  The gaslighters use persuasion, coercion, and repetition.  They want to beat you into submission.  They never bring actual data.  (And of course, they get richer if you end up going along - so they are hopelessly conflicted too).

    Of course if there is data I've overlooked, then bring it.  If you really want to play fair, and not use the MSM gaslighting techniques, I'll be happy to listen.  If there's a trial out there that shows an all cause mortality benefit from "vaccination" - then - show me.  So far I haven't seen it.  In fact, I've seen the opposite.

    About masks: if I can smell cooking food with my mask on when I walk by, I'm going to hazard a guess that the (smaller) viral particles will pass even more easily - in both directions - through this "effective" mask I'm required to wear.  Even though I have no symptoms at all.

    I conclude that the mandatory mask rules have been put in place by the gaslighters to remind us we're in the middle of a deadly pandemic.  Otherwise, we might forget and start living normal lives.  And that would be bad - for the gaslighters.  The world might start to look a whole lot like Florida.  Where life goes on, and (somehow - miraculously) the bodies are not piling up outside the hospitals.

    Finally, Yoxa - I must admit to being curious.  If we're all such horrid people, with so much "Koolaid" in our forums, why do you come here?  Sincere question.

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  • Mon, Dec 13, 2021 - 7:30am

    GBruno1600

    GBruno1600

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    Posts: 202

    6

    When the lightbulb finally lights up....

    It reveals the cockroaches of "false narratives" that then quickly scatter for censored dark hiding spaces.

    Darkness just can't stand the light of truth!

    Recognizing the betrayals of all "false authority" is the first step towards Freedom.

    2 + 2 = 4, and not just whatever the "Cabal" is inculcating in you with false narratives!

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  • Mon, Dec 13, 2021 - 7:48am

    GBruno1600

    GBruno1600

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    Joined: Sep 06 2021

    Posts: 202

    14

    "Laundry" an ancient ritual?

    How about "human and child sacrifices" to Moloch?

    Only the N-95 and higher masks are effective in preventing the spread of infection.

    The other masks are just "ritual conformity" to a false narrative of virtue-signaling.

    When harms outweigh the benefits, you then should ask yourself, whom really benefits from such superstitious "rituals"?

    The factual answer is the "Cabal" that invented them all to control and profit off of you.

    That "Cabal" is far more "ancient" even than is "laundry".

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  • Mon, Dec 13, 2021 - 12:10pm

    Yoxa

    Yoxa

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    Posts: 393

    1

    Yoxa said:

    I'm going to hazard a guess that the (smaller) viral particles will pass even more easily

    Don't miss the point that virus particles travel on the droplets in our breath which are big enough to be captured by a mask. That's not the only way the virus gets around but it's a big one. Every droplet captured by a mask is a droplet not floating in the air for someone else to breathe in. If there's covid in the room, but everyone has a mask on (worn properly and sized well), the virus is less likely to get into a new set of lungs. How is reducing the R0 not a good thing?

    I cannot quote you a percentage on how much risk reduction masks might create in a given setting. I would, however, caution you about the fallacy of false precision.

    Don't assume that droplets won't spread just because one isn't coughing or sneezing. If you lived in a cold climate you could see your breath and know that your little cloud is always there even when you're breathing quietly. That cloud is much smaller with a mask. Yes, I've tested that.

    Something else to keep in mind is the compounding value of partial protections. Protective actions can be worth taking even if they're not perfect. If  a single individual does something that is, say, 20% effective, the value of that will be small. If the whole population does that thing, it's huge. If something reduces risk by 50%, and something else reduces it by 50%, together they reduce the risk to 25%. Add more things to the mix that are partially protective and you can make the total risk very small. Not zero, but small.

    That takes collaboration, though.

    I gotta say that it puzzles me how some people who prefer not to be vaccinated don't get their act together to protect themselves in other ways. In my province there's a strong correlation between the areas of  highest ICU cases and lowest vaccination rates.  A few days ago 96% of the covid cases in our ICUs were unvaccinated, even though those folks constitute less than 20% of the vax-eligible population.

    I could say a lot about how badly that disrupts health care for other conditions but I'll stop now.

    why do you come here?  Sincere question.

    I ask myself that sometimes.

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  • Mon, Dec 13, 2021 - 12:26pm

    thesecuritygirl

    thesecuritygirl

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    Joined: Mar 23 2020

    Posts: 223

    20

    Yoxa, let me guess.. You're Canadian?

    Dave's points are so bang on....

    It might have been 2 years ago that I might have actually had the patience to listen to what you had to say Yoxa but think about where we're at as a society... sacrificing our children in the name of Granny..... That one is the one that has me just mad!  No I don't have patience, no playtime and tolerance is over.  I used to be a nice guy and now I'm not.  You're busy debating whether droplets bypass mask or not... It's really irrelevant.  We are at war and you're late.  There are too many of us passed the point of pissed.

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  • Mon, Dec 13, 2021 - 12:57pm

    2retired

    2retired

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    Joined: Jul 20 2020

    Posts: 277

    8

    2retired said:

    Chain link fences may stop the odd mosquito, but having helped train people in the use and application of N95 masks, I have yet to see anyone outside of an isolation ward using masks in a way that might be effective (eg Danish mask study). Yoxa's moral certitude credentials may better better attached to a political party than a nation.

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  • Mon, Dec 13, 2021 - 1:33pm

    Canuck21

    Canuck21

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    Joined: Aug 10 2020

    Posts: 1108

    5

    Canadian -- so what?

    I'm Canadian. Lots of PPers are Canadian. Let's not stick stickers on people.

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  • Mon, Dec 13, 2021 - 1:50pm

    Pappy

    Pappy

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    Joined: Jun 29 2020

    Posts: 242

    28

    Time for me to spout off a bit...

    Quote:

    I gotta say that it puzzles me how some people who prefer not to be vaccinated don't get their act together to protect themselves in other ways.

    But we do, just not in a way you would approve. Here's my list:

    1. I no longer fear a virus with a ~99.96% recovery rate for my age group
    2. I stopped listening to the pharma-sponsored media outlets
    3. I stopped listening to most elected officials
    4. I eat very well and have lost weight
    5. I try to exercise more - work in progress
    6. I have a 60+ ng/ml 25-hydroxy Vitamin D level
    7. I supplement my body with vitamins and minerals
    8. I sleep well every night
    9. I get sick every now and then - whole family had a cold 2 weeks ago from the kids
    10. I recover from getting sick every now and then - and feel great afterwards
    11. I have a closet full of "unapproved" treatments
    12. I'm not wearing a wet diaper across my face - EVER AGAIN

     

    I'm also a COVID layoff casualty who can't find a decent job anymore because almost all (~90%) of the companies I apply to are illegally requiring an experimental potion be injected into me in order to be employed by them. I eagerly await some employment discrimination lawsuits to present themselves, but I'm not holding my breath anymore.

     

    I've lost patience for you people who accept or believe all this BS because someone with a little bigger earnings than you or a government job title says "wear a mask" or "take this EUA shot".

    In my eyes, ANYONE who continues to abide or perpetuate with these BS rules is now the enemy.

    I don't care that "I need my job to feed my family", I do too.  But I didn't give up my bodily autonomy or morals and I am paying a price that is far too much and beyond my control.

    BECAUSE MASKS AND JABS AERN'T WORKING. 

    Freedom is not free, and it's getting more expensive every day all you douchebags keep rolling over and taking it up the rectum.

    As for the actively vocal mask/jab cheerleaders - we won't forget how you cheered me off into financial ruin because you were so afraid to be human and get sick once in awhile.

    You are noted and will be remembered.

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  • Mon, Dec 13, 2021 - 2:12pm

    Quercus bicolor

    Status: Gold Member

    Joined: Mar 19 2008

    Posts: 1167

    11

    Lost post

    Hi all, I put out a very long and data rich post in response to numerous claims by Yoxa, but it's lost somewhere in the PP spam post reservoir now.  I have a request in to the admins to resurrect it.  For now, I'll say that there are some studies that show that rebreathed air behind a KN95 and even surgical and cloth masks approaches NIOSH 8 hour CO2 exposure limits.  One study using KN95 masks even shows it well exceeding this limit and approaching the 15 minute exposure limit.  Both studies admit headaches and other issues from long term mask wearing, suggesting the multihour per day for many, many days limit should be significantly lower than the 8 hour limit.  I hope the admins can resurrect it for me.

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  • Mon, Dec 13, 2021 - 2:34pm

    Yoxa

    Yoxa

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    Joined: Dec 20 2011

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    Yes, I'm Canadian

    .... from a small town in Manitoba.

    Yoxa's moral certitude

    I make no apology for that and I would challenge you to think carefully about what's moral. The US's covid-deaths-per-capita rate is three times worse than Canada's rate, after all. Reasons for the difference are complex but too easily swallowing misinformation and sloppy logic is a big one.

    We are at war and you're late.

    All I can say about that is to make very, very, very sure that the reasons you're ready for war are actually true. From here it doesn't always look that way.

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  • Mon, Dec 13, 2021 - 2:53pm

    Yoxa

    Yoxa

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    Pappy

    But we do, just not in a way you would approve. Here's my list:

    I would have major respect for your list if it included a clear strategy for making sure you don't pass the virus around if you catch it. Especially if you don't know you have it.

    Also, many places report that they have disproportionate numbers of unvaxxed in their ICUs. What do you think is responsible for the difference?

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  • Mon, Dec 13, 2021 - 2:54pm

    Jim H

    Status: Silver Member

    Joined: Jun 08 2009

    Posts: 1751

    15

    Let's not attack each other's moral certitude... this is a form of ad-hominem

    We need to pull this back to be a data-based conversation.  I looked on Worldometer and indeed the numbers there suggest a lower death rate in Canada (2450 per million population, vs 783).  My guess is that the main reason for this is how things are counted, and the disgusting incentives that were handed to US hospitals and associated entities in labelling everything and anything as Covid-19.

    In the final analysis, it's all complete BS since this data is mostly in the absence of early treatment.  Early treatment with an effective anti-viral and supportive supplement cocktail would have negated the vast, vast majority of deaths in all cases.

    We know this because it's still working in Uttar Pradesh, where the latest figures show only 134 active Covid-19 cases across a population of 230 million people.  We are at war... but as Dr. Malone stated yesterday in his Unityproject podcast from Puerto Rico, we need to maintain compassion for those who are trapped in the mass formation of fear.  Rather than focusing on moral certainty, I focus on data certainty, and we have that in spades;

    COVID-19 in India: A state declined to use early treatment and the results are appalling

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  • Mon, Dec 13, 2021 - 2:57pm

    Mark_BC

    Status: Silver Member

    Joined: Apr 30 2010

    Posts: 663

    12

    Mark_BC said:

    In my province there's a strong correlation between the areas of highest ICU cases and lowest vaccination rates. A few days ago 96% of the covid cases in our ICUs were unvaccinated, even though those folks constitute less than 20% of the vax-eligible population.

    Are you certain of that? Do you have a reference? There's lots of anecdotal reports that the vaxxed are being falsely classified as unvaxxed, or because they fall within the 2 week post jab window to be classified as "fully vaxxed". So vax injuries are then wrongly classified as unvaxxed. There's strange things happening in the UK data where the overall unvaxxed population mysteriously experiences a surge in deaths right around when vax campaigns start...

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  • Mon, Dec 13, 2021 - 3:17pm

    davefairtex

    davefairtex

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    easily puzzled

    I gotta say that it puzzles me how some people who prefer not to be vaccinated don't get their act together to protect themselves in other ways.

    Yoxa, you are easily puzzled.  As with Pappy, I protect myself in "other ways."  Ways that appear to work.  At least in my life anyway.

    I have lived all during this pandemic with a nurse who - at least part of the time - takes care of COVID patients.  First phase of the pandemic - it all went fairly smoothly.  Second phase: all the staff at the hospital got vaccinated.  Three times.  Then they all got COVID.  Nobody died (of course) because they were all < 40.  My nurse did not get infected.  (Guess why?)  Neither did I.

    Turns out, things other than "vaccination" really do work.  (Who knew?)  Maybe it was masks?  Oh wait.  They all wore masks.  (Nurses: required to wear masks.  Who knew?).  So it wasn't masks.  So what could it have been?  I know.  Luck.  Its just luck.  The particles somehow missed the nurse I lived with, and infected literally all the other nurses in the group.  Amazing luck.

    [n.b. I have a pretty good idea why I've dodged the bullet, along with the nurse.  But that's a story for another time.  It had to do with...oops.  A story for another time.]

    So - why do you come here, again?

    Let me answer first: why do I come here?  To find out how to survive - and thrive - 2 years into a lab-leak pandemic while not following the rest of the cows into the now-every-three-months vaccination-subscription program.  And I get to live my life.  That's why.

    This seems to have worked.  For me.  For my family.  And some of my friends.

    Once more: why do you come here again?  I'm not chasing you away.  I am sincerely puzzled as to what possible value us "koolaid" people could possibly add to your life.  I'd really like to know.

    After all, you have: Shots!  Boosters!  Masks!  Orders to hide in the basement!  Remdesivir, and 6 mg dexamethasone once you get hospitalized with your breakthrough infection.  Which you will never get because you're boosted!  Every three months!  [Boosters required because the shots work just that well!]

    It just doesn't get any better than the mainstream narrative.  Amirite?

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  • Mon, Dec 13, 2021 - 3:28pm

    Pappy

    Pappy

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    Now it's my fault, huh?

    When did it become my responsibility to prevent you from catching a virus or bacterium that I may or may not have caught myself? It's not.

    I have no responsibility to upend my entire existence to prevent you from getting sick.  None. This is a completely new way of thinking about living that didn't exist two years ago.

    It is not my fault if I catch a cold or the flu and then spread it to others.  Why is it now my fault if I catch SARS-CoV2 and then pass it on?

    IT IS JUST BIOLOGY. Living creatures exist, they catch bugs and spread them.

    Now you wish to impose a moral responsibility upon me for you catching COVID or the flu?

    How about you just stay inside, put on three masks, get your fifth booster and leave me alone. I'm not buying into your guilt trip for interacting with the biological universe.

     

    Just as an aside, to show how far down the idiot-preventative rabbit hole we've fallen, about four years ago I tried to stay home from work because of a fever, coughing and sneezing.  My customer was not at all happy that a reschedule would be needed, my salesman was unhappy he would eat travel costs due to my illness, and most of all - I felt like crap and didn't want to work until I got better.

    Guess what? NOBODY GAVE A SHIT! My manager told me to suck it up and get it done, then rest when the job was over.

    My task that week was to design wireless coverage for a residential elderly facility where I had to enter all rooms at least three times over the course of several days. About 80 elderly residents in those rooms, many very old and sick. Not to mention all the people in the airport and the planes I flew in that week.

    I ended up traveling and working and probably infecting every person I breathed by.

    My how times have changed...

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  • Mon, Dec 13, 2021 - 3:40pm

    Yoxa

    Yoxa

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    Dave

    As with Pappy, I protect myself in "other ways."

    I'm sure you do. I'll ask you the same thing that I asked Pappy ... what's your strategy for making sure you don't pass the virus around if you get it? Especially if you don't know you have it?

    Someone who ends up in ICU from covid has clearly missed something in how they protect themselves. That's the part that puzzles me, why they would let their guard down.

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  • Mon, Dec 13, 2021 - 3:43pm

    westcoastjan

    westcoastjan

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    Joined: Jun 04 2012

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    14

    Flip flopping along...

    I know there was hope that vaccination would free us. We now know that that's not the case."

    - Hon. Dorothy Shephard, Minister of Health for NB, December 10, 2021
    https://www.stand4freedomnb.com/post/dorothy-shephard-flip-flops-on-vaccines

    Righto.... but let's go ahead and tell grocers in NB they are free to refuse access to the unvaxxed, you know, just to be mean and vindictive.

    The flip flopping from all entities, everywhere is beyond nuts. Anyone who buys into a word they say is equally nuts, and been thoroughly indoctrinated by the mass formation.

     

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  • Mon, Dec 13, 2021 - 4:32pm

    Yoxa

    Yoxa

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    2

    Responsibility

    When did it become my responsibility to prevent you from catching a virus or bacterium that I may or may not have caught myself? It's not.

    So: I see you emphatically denying that the bodily well-being of others is anything to concern yourself about.

    That doesn't leave much ground to stand on when you want respect for your own bodily autonomy, y'know.

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  • Mon, Dec 13, 2021 - 5:04pm

    davefairtex

    davefairtex

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    Joined: Sep 03 2008

    Posts: 3099

    10

    you first

    Yoxa-

    I'll answer your question when you answer mine.

    What do you get from us here at PP?  Why are you here?

    Seriously.  I'm not answering anything from you until you answer my question first.

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  • Mon, Dec 13, 2021 - 5:07pm

    Jim H

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    Posts: 1751

    20

    You are on a slippery logical slope Yoxa...

    Studies have shown that the vaccinated can and do transmit SARS-CoV-2 just as readily as the unvaxed;

    https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.11.12.21265796v1

    Transmission potential of vaccinated and unvaccinated persons infected with the SARS-CoV-2 Delta variant in a federal prison, July—August 2021

    Conclusions As this field continues to develop, clinicians and public health practitioners should consider vaccinated persons who become infected with SARS-CoV-2 to be no less infectious than unvaccinated persons.

    That's pretty damn clear.

    If you really want to go down this path further, maybe I would want to blame the vaccinated for their naive complicity in altering the evolutionary landscape that SARS-CoV-2 sees such that new escape mutations are coming so hard and fast that even those with natural immunity may be at risk again;

          https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34873910/

    Mechanisms of SARS-CoV-2 Evolution Revealing Vaccine-Resistant Mutations in Europe and America

    Here, we demonstrate that vaccine-breakthrough or antibody-resistant mutations provide a new mechanism of viral evolution. Specifically, vaccine-resistant mutation Y449S in the spike (S) protein receptor-binding domain, which occurred in co-mutations Y449S and N501Y, has reduced infectivity compared to that of the original SARS-CoV-2 but can disrupt existing antibodies that neutralize the virus.

    How does that feel, Yoxa, to be at least partially responsible, as part of the first ever mass vaccination campaign with a leaky, single epitope "vaccine", for creating a new mechanism for viral evolution?  A new mechanism that could, conceivably nullify Muller's ratchet and cause the emergence of more lethal versions?  Was the mass vaccination a societal good?  I submit that there is no way that this was a societal good... not at the all-cause mortality level, not in terms of our collective health future.  The small short term benefits to mortality are more than offset by a long list of negatives and a long tail of vaccine damage.

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  • Mon, Dec 13, 2021 - 5:16pm

    Kathy

    Kathy

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    Joined: Feb 21 2020

    Posts: 719

    10

    The best way to keep unhealthy people safe would be

    To lock them away until the young/healthy people all get natural immunity.

     

    I am much more concerned about a mask/vaxxed asymptotic spreader than I am about an unvaxxed sick young person.

    And the folks I am really concerned about are the under 20’s that have poor health because of the jab, crumbling teeth, no social skills, no friends and poor economic future.  When they realize what we have stolen from them so grandma can goto the grocery store I think we are going to see chaos.

    Kathy

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  • Mon, Dec 13, 2021 - 5:24pm

    Mike from Jersey

    Mike from Jersey

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    Joined: Jan 22 2018

    Posts: 1645

    10

    Replying to You are on a slippery logical slope Yoxa... (#144)

    Jim H.,

    What you posted is true but that is just the tip of the iceberg.

    Even the CDC Director admitted that the vaccines do not stop the spreading of the virus.

    The conclusion:

    Fully vaccinated people who get a COVID-19 "breakthrough" infection can spread the virus to others even if they are not symptomatic, Centers for Disease Control Director Rochelle Walensky told CNN on Thursday.

    Which means that by getting the vaccine you could become a stealth spreader. Spreading it to vulnerable people without even knowing it.

    Data supports this conclusion.

    Here is a study from Harvard University showing that increases in COVID-19 are unrelated to levels of vaccination across 68 countries and 2947 counties in the United States.

    Harvard Study

    To add to the previous post regarding cases, here is a chart that shows US deaths per 100,000 cases vs % vaccinated by state since the beginning of the pandemic.

    No correlation between vaccination and deaths.

    Data sources:

    https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/us/covid-19-vaccine-doses.html

    https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/us/

     

    And the vaccinated could spread the disease with large viral loads.

    Here is study published in the Lancet:

    ... fully vaccinated individuals with breakthrough infections have peak viral load similar to unvaccinated cases and can efficiently transmit infection in household settings, including to fully vaccinated contacts.

    Community transmission and viral load kinetics of the SARS-CoV-2 delta (B.1.617.2) variant in vaccinated and unvaccinated individuals in the UK: a prospective, longitudinal, cohort study

    And here is a collection of over thirty studies showing that vaccination (individual or in mass) either does not stop transmission or is of dubious efficacy.

    35 Studies on Vaccine Efficacy that Raise Doubts on Vaccine Mandates

    So there is simply no "moral duty to others" to get vaccinated.

    It is an individual medical decision not affecting issues of public health as a whole.

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  • Mon, Dec 13, 2021 - 5:28pm

    VTGothic

    VTGothic

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    Joined: Jan 05 2020

    Posts: 473

    22

    The silliness and Covid hysteria

    Yoxa said:

     what's your strategy for making sure you don't pass the virus around if you get it? Especially if you don't know you have it?

    Someone who ends up in ICU from covid has clearly missed something in how they protect themselves. That's the part that puzzles me, why they would let their guard down.

    I see 2 sillys every time I leave the house:

    1. people wearing masks completely ineffectively: gaps and puckers all around; down below the nose; on when standing in a restaurant but fully off when sitting; pulling them down to lean in and talk to an acquaintance; upside down, for gawd's sake... the list goes on. Most people I see wearing masks simply aren't accomplishing either containment or prevention.

    2. people who have been vaxxed behaving fully normally, apparently completely unaware that the vaccines do not prevent them from either contracting Covid or passing it on to others, and apparently unaware that the spike protein factory set up in their cells is as much a danger as this super flu, if not a greater.

    Juxtaposed to that highly ineffective mass behavior, every now and then we are treated to a photo or video of high-level officials who don't appear to know there's a camera catching them when they think they're out of the public eye so wearing masks and maintaining social distance can go by the wayside. I marvel anyone can see such and not grasp the theater.

    The simple fact is that we are all going to get Covid sooner or later. 99.98% of us will experience little more than flu symptoms - just like during annual flu season. So...what is it we're worried about, exactly? I imagine the same people who obsess over annual flu shots that don't work are obsessing over Covid shots that don't work. A great many are probably Karens who obsess over germs and bacteria, too, running about sterilizing everything and trying to keep their little Karens from getting dirty hands and grass stains on their clothes. They surely don't want to hear that their skin is alive with these little powerhouses of nature and natural processes. Or that viruses happen.

    All in, I don't participate any longer. I do wear a mask occasionally, out of deference when I think deference is warranted (some hills are not worth the bother of fighting over), but I have no fear of Covid and I am 100% opposed to government sponsored vaccine and mask mandates - especially given the ludicrous manner in which people misuse masks, and the fact these vaccines are not vaccines at all but, at best, treatments and at worst poison.

    I have no interest in defending my position. The data's out there; certainly it's here and no one can be on this site and have not been exposed to the real science. It matters not to me whether any particular PPer believes this data or that data. We all set our candles down somewhere, live accordingly, and reap the benefits and consequences of our choices. Have at it as you will; I'll as I will.

    I have no intention of segregating myself from the public square. Those afraid for their health (whether operating from a real fear based in their own biological frailty or from a false, manufactured perception - this second being where I perceive Yoxa to be stationed) can do the hiding and withdrawing as they choose. When I sense someone in meat space is nervous, I do maintain some distance - most such are people I'm not going to see again anyhow and wouldn't want to get close to in the best of circumstances; a very few are so locked into the fear mindset, and I care about them, so I meet them halfway: I don't mask altho they do, but I don't press closer than they're comfortable with me being. They can set the terms, it's no problem for me.

    I am fortunate that the people I hang with are 98% as unconcerned as I am - most don't even take the prophylactic regimen that I do.

    BTW, Yoxa, this,

    Someone who ends up in ICU from covid has clearly missed something in how they protect themselves.

    is not necessarily true. It's possible to do everything we know is "right" to do prophylactically and still get a disease, or die. It's also possible to take every recommended treatment for any particular illness and still end up in ICU. These are true statements for Covid, too.

    We don't know everything about everything, and our bodies are incredibly complex entities. The protocols - whether Fauci approved or FLCCC approved - are not 100%. Our best knowledge is only that; we know nothing exhaustively because our bodies, the world, and life itself are emergent systems.

    I choose to accept that, make the best choices I know to make with the best information I have at hand, and move on with living - doing the things I like with the people I love.

    Fauci and cabal can go pound sand.

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  • Mon, Dec 13, 2021 - 5:44pm

    westcoastjan

    westcoastjan

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    Joined: Jun 04 2012

    Posts: 1463

    8

    Highly recommended.....

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  • Mon, Dec 13, 2021 - 5:49pm

    nordicjack

    nordicjack

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    Joined: Feb 03 2020

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    10

    You are responsible for your own health not others

    I had health issues a few years back that made be very susceptible to simple infections like the flu and cold and even other simple things.   I also recall my wife when she was pregnant, and when my children were infants;  we had to protect ourselves from simple flu.  This could have killed me at the time.   It could have killed my wife when pregnant and could have killed my children when they were infants or very young.

    We took extra actions to be careful.  We shopped less during flu season.   We all didn't shop together as we usually did.   We didnt travel as much , and  socialized less , and we avoided hospitals and doctors offices as much as possible

    We did our NPIs.

    If you are afraid, take action for yourself.    I wished people didn't go shopping coughing all the way through the produce section.  This use to really annoy me.  I asked why not wait till you are healthy, why not ask a friend or family to shop, etc.  But in the end people dont care about you, and never did.    But on a side note:  why should that idiot walking around the store coughing do anything different?  obviously some other monkey gave it to him, so why is he the evil one and not the guy before him , and the guy before him and the guy before and the guy before him. Oops had to reboot.

    You see, you cant blame the guy for your illness because he gave it to you.  like somehow he was the guy who created it.   Oh yeah , that guy is fauci.  THAT is the guy who we have to restrict his movement.  I think there is place suitable for him.  away from the public.

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  • Mon, Dec 13, 2021 - 5:50pm

    ao

    ao

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    9

    Yoxa, can you expound more on an obvious question

    This question is assiduously avoided by most of the players so vigorously promoting COVID vaccination.  That is, why does the USA have such a high rate of COVID-related deaths?

    We know monetarily incentivizing overdiagnosis is most likely one factor.

    The prevalence of obesity, metabolic syndrome, and related disorders in the USA is most likely another.

    You state: "Reasons for the difference are complex but too easily swallowing misinformation and sloppy logic is a big one."  Could you please elaborate on what exactly you mean by that and how those two factors increase the death rate?

    Would you care to offer any other explanations for why the USA has a higher incidence of COVID deaths per capita as compared to Canada?

    I can think of at least one off the top of my head but I'd like to hear your thoughts on the subject.

     

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  • Mon, Dec 13, 2021 - 7:10pm

    GBruno1600

    GBruno1600

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    Joined: Sep 06 2021

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    3

    A suitable place for both him and the Whole "Cabal"?

    How about just dancing on air?

    In public, at least, for that event.

    After all of their fair trials, of course!

     

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  • Tue, Dec 14, 2021 - 4:28am

    Yoxa

    Yoxa

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    Joined: Dec 20 2011

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    1

    US vs Canada

    ... why does the USA have such a high rate of COVID-related deaths?

    The prevalence of obesity, metabolic syndrome, and related disorders in the USA is most likely another.

    We have those too.

    You state: "Reasons for the difference are complex but too easily swallowing misinformation and sloppy logic is a big one."  Could you please elaborate on what exactly you mean by that and how those two factors increase the death rate?

    Wrong information or wrong understandings, no matter how sincerely believed, will result in some folks missing basic defence measures or doing things that are actively counterproductive.

    The first wrong information I remember noticing was Trump's suggestion in early 2020 that this virus was no worse than ordinary flu. Canada's health officials would say cautious-scientist things like "we don't have evidence about XYZ" but they were not saying all is well, don't worry, be happy.

    Would you care to offer any other explanations for why the USA has a higher incidence of COVID deaths per capita as compared to Canada?

    Some folks have doubts about how accurate the death counts are but I don't think the magnitude of the difference can be explained by (hypothetical) inconsistencies in reporting.

    One factor that I think contributes mightily to the difference is that in 2018 the Trump administration disbanded the department responsible for pandemic preparedness. People weren't actually fired (a wrong claim sometimes made by Trump critics) but members of the team were redeployed to other departments and some quit. Even though some of the talent was still around, the team was no longer a team. So when a real pandemic showed up, the US didn't mount a coherent response. Communication from leadership was both confused and confusing.

    Canada's officials were more likely to pull in the same direction. Justin Trudeau did a better job of supporting his health officials than Trump did, in both word and behaviour. Example: in daily statements to the nation Trudeau faced the camera alone with no minions in sight. It was clear he took distancing seriously, unlike Trump with his swarms of sycophants. The difference in symbolism was huge, even before a word was said. I didn't vote for Trudeau, but I came to have much respect for the clarity of his communication in a wretched situation.

    Another factor in the US/Canada difference, maybe the biggest:  in our medical system, decisions about our health care needs are made by medical professionals, not by insurance company bureaucrats. Our health care isn't tied to our employment status and we're not jerked around by predatory insurance companies. We have little incentive to delay seeking treatment when a need arises. Those who preach about the benefits of early treatment will see the value there.

    Final thought for now: last time I checked, Canada's average life expectancy was close to three years longer than the US for both men and women. Covid skews heavily towards older age groups, so one would expect a slightly older population to have more deaths, but if that's having an effect it's not enough to show up in any stats I found.

    I can think of at least one off the top of my head but I'd like to hear your thoughts on the subject.

    Over to you, sir.

     

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  • Tue, Dec 14, 2021 - 5:05am

    Canuckian

    Canuckian

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    Posts: 248

    9

    Canuckian said:

    Great post.

    I would add, where was the moral outrage two years ago about child slaves mining cobalt etc for our smartphones, where was the moral outrage about children making our clothes, where was the moral outrage against human trafficking, where was the moral outrage against homelessness? The list goes on and on and on.

    All of a sudden people give a shit about strangers? I'll bet anything that those who say they're getting the vaccine and wearing a mask to protect others don't truly care at all if they're honest with themselves. That's just a story they tell themselves and others.

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  • Tue, Dec 14, 2021 - 6:41am

    richcabot

    richcabot

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    Joined: Apr 05 2011

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    4

    Incentives

    Canada doesn't pay the hospitals extra for every person they put on a ventilator.

    I don't know if any early treatment is given but even vitamins would make a difference.

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  • Tue, Dec 14, 2021 - 7:05am

    John Drake

    John Drake

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    Joined: Sep 20 2021

    Posts: 18

    13

    Why engage?

    I visit here fairly regularly but don't post often.

    I see the same type of posts from GBell12 (I think it was), Joshua Green and now Yoxa.  They all have the same condescending tone and will avoid any question or evidence that doesn't fit with their (and coincidentally the official) narrative.  It is clear that they do not have the open minded approach of many on here.

    One has to hope that they are paid for their efforts as it would be sad indeed if they spend their free time trying to start arguments with strangers on the internet.

    I don't understand the point of engaging with them though.  Why respond to their posts?  One has to assume that they are here purely to waste our time and hinder any progress towards the truth.  I cannot believe that they think their arguments are convincing.

    I tend to think the same of those who post lots of links to out there stuff as well.  It just seems like attempts to muddy the waters to me.

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  • Tue, Dec 14, 2021 - 8:24am

    trackingtruth

    trackingtruth

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    There is no other truth in Israel

    Just read about the resignation of the Israeli education Covid administrator. It appears that she opposed vaccinating children in schools. The education minister explained in an interview that the government said it was a necessary action to protect schoolchildren and that "there is no other truth." But we can't call him a liar. If he only listens to his superiors, then he could be saying this truthfully. As a character in an old comedy once said, "I see nussing, I hear nussing." The Jews of Israel have become their greatest enemy and now are killing their own children. What will they do next? Work camps for the unvaxed? Arbeit Mach Frei?" https://www.israelnationalnews.com/news/318630

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  • Tue, Dec 14, 2021 - 8:35am

    YZ_from_Katy_TX

    YZ_from_Katy_TX

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    YZ_from_Katy_TX said:

    So: I see you emphatically denying that the bodily well-being of others is anything to concern yourself about.

    I think you (deliberately?) misunderstand Pappy here. There is a huge difference between taking measures to not spread the infection when one is sick and preventing YOU from getting sick. I'm with Pappy here. The only effective way for me to prevent YOUR sickness would entail me relieving you of most of your rights. I don't want and don't accept such responsibility. You cannot convince me that it would be moral in any way.

    That doesn't leave much ground to stand on when you want respect for your own bodily autonomy, y'know

    Now you really lost me. How is your health related in any way to my bodily autonomy? Or are you saying that the only way you feel safe is when you have control over others' bodies? This seems a confused statement to me. Could you , please, clarify what you mean?

    If you are saying that it is everyone's duty to vaccinate so that YOU don't get sick ... or your neighbor's granny doesn't get sick  ...  that argument falls flat as the vaccines don't stop transmission.

     

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  • Tue, Dec 14, 2021 - 8:39am

    Mike from Jersey

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    Replying to Why engage? (#155)

    John Drake,

    You wrote:

    I don't understand the point of engaging with them though.

    For myself, there are two reasons to engage.

    One, there have been a flood of new members to this site in the past few months. Often, the new members are people who are fed up with the Captive Media. They have deduced that they are being lied to and are looking for the truth. In responding to those few coming here to push the mainstream narrative, regular PP's have a opportunity to engage the dominant narrative with powerful fact based arguments based upon information accumulated over months of research. That exposes the lies. In that way new members who have come here for answers, can find answers - laid out in detail in response each dominant MSM narratives.

    Two, if one does not respond to them, it might have the opposite effect. It might give some legitimacy to those arguments - as if there are no responses to the mainstream narratives.

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  • Tue, Dec 14, 2021 - 8:58am

    GBruno1600

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    An excellent answer!

    The Darkness of falsehoods grows only when there is no countering Light of truths!

    And, it let's us know what "false narratives" the "Cabal" are selling out there

    that we all just might not be aware of yet, so we can counter them with facts.

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  • Tue, Dec 14, 2021 - 9:03am

    John Drake

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    John Drake said:

    Hi Mike,

    I do see that side of it, but my concern would be that new members or lurkers might be turned off by the inevitable irritation in some of the responses to the aforementioned agitators.  A rube with no knowledge outside of the MSM experience possibly wouldn't want to get into a discussion here if they feel intimidated by the answers given to others asking similar questions.

    I feel at this point if someone argues that you get the injection to save others it is clear that they are a paid shill, brainwashed or have been living in a cave for a year and I can't see the latter two groups finding their way to this site. Even the MSM dropped that concept ages ago.

    I suppose a simple 'read these links' type post would provide a counter to the narrative without expressing any annoyance and if they ignore the evidence then they are exposed for what they are.

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  • Tue, Dec 14, 2021 - 9:27am

    Mike from Jersey

    Mike from Jersey

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    Replying to John Drake said: (#160)

    John Drake:

    You wrote:

    A rube with no knowledge outside of the MSM experience possibly wouldn't want to get into a discussion here if they feel intimidated by the answers given to others asking similar questions.

    I fully agree with that. I try - in my own answers - not to act in a manner which is demeaning. That is not always easy since these topics have inflamed the passions of many - including myself.

    And a "knowledge base" is a great idea. Maybe with the new site revisions here that will be a possibility.

     

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  • Tue, Dec 14, 2021 - 9:28am

    davefairtex

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    three possibilities

    JD-

    One has to hope that they are paid for their efforts as it would be sad indeed if they spend their free time trying to start arguments with strangers on the internet.

    It is clear they are motivated.  I see three options:

    1) paid trolls - whose only goal is to distract.  As you say, hope they're paid well.  "Mommy, what did you do during the great war?"  "Sweetie, I was a concentration camp guard, because I was too afraid to go to the Russian Front."

    2) self-doubt.  While pretending to try to to Save Grandma and Assist Public Health, they are really addressing their own internal conflict.  After all, the shots really don't work, and neither do masks.  It has all been a big, embarrassing lie by the power structure, which we all bought in to a greater or lesser extent, and the larger the ego, the more this hurts.  So they strike out at those who are now calling out the lies in order to relieve their own internal conflict.  "It can't be true!  There really were WMD in Iraq!  Colin Powell said so!"  I remember going through that internal conflict back then.   This time it was much easier.  "People in power - they lie - in order to get more power."

    3) Narcissistic Personality Disorder.

    Hard to tell which one from this distance.

    [edit] FWIW I agree that being "overly emotional" (something I'm certainly guilty of) might be a turn-off to some new members.  Ideally being in a place of neutrality provides the most clear-headed and rational response.  I am, unfortunately, not there.  All that planned death makes me upset.  I don't like the gaslighting either.  Maybe if I could release all that, maybe my posts would be more effective.    Food for thought.

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  • Tue, Dec 14, 2021 - 10:17am

    Ision

    Ision

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    Ision said:

    No need to be cool about deliberate murder.

    Never regret your passion, nor withhold your judgment.

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  • Tue, Dec 14, 2021 - 10:33am

    Steven Kelso

    Steven Kelso

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    Yoxa is a Human Supremacist

    ...what's your strategy for making sure you don't pass the virus around if you get it? Especially if you don't know you have it?

    Yoxa's central premises for argumentation:

    • Viruses serve no useful purpose in our biosphere and should be circumvented, subjugated, and/or eradicated from existence.
    • Spreading viruses, knowingly or unknowingly, serves no useful purpose in our biosphere and should be prevented or eradicated.

    This is human supremacism.

    I think it's humanity's duty to naturally spread naturally-originating viruses. Anything else would be like applying Right-Libertarianism to biology and ecology. Such insane, psychopathic notions that humans exist outside of nature just reminds me of the insidious economic term "externality". It's pure fantasy.

    It's like watching a toddler freak out after getting dirt on their hands.

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  • Tue, Dec 14, 2021 - 10:44am

    westcoastjan

    westcoastjan

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    Um, no, you may want to re-visit that

    Another factor in the US/Canada difference, maybe the biggest: in our medical system, decisions about our health care needs are made by medical professionals, not by insurance company bureaucrats. Our health care isn't tied to our employment status and we're not jerked around by predatory insurance companies. We have little incentive to delay seeking treatment when a need arises. Those who preach about the benefits of early treatment will see the value there.

    While that may have been true in the past, the Canadian healthcare system is rapidly being usurped by the same systems in place in the USA, with insurance company fingerprints all over the plan.

    Ever heard of an "Intensivist", Yoxa? If not, and if you think that doctors in Canada are still making their own decisions with respect to patient care, then you had better wake up fast! Have a watch:

    https://rumble.com/vmn7bz-how-hospitals-are-killing-us.html

    Video is in 4 parts;
    Part 1: My takedown of “Trusted Voice” of the Pandemic, Michael Warner.
    Part 2: What is an Intensivist and how have they ruined Hospitals?
    Part 3: The history of Critical Care – some shady characters emerge in the wake of WW2.
    Part 4: Who benefits from this? Who forced the hiring of Intensivists in thousands of hospitals? Is this part of a darker agenda of population control and eugenics?

    Spoiler alert: where Intensivists are in place, which is a rapidly growing phenomena in Canada, the doctors are NOT the lead decision makers for patient care, even in the ICU. That responsibility is delegated to the Intensivists, whose primary motivations are not patient care, but on cost management. Sorry, but patient care takes a back seat to effective and efficient hospital governance.

    It is far easier to fool someone than to convince them that they have been fooled. As a fellow Canadian, as a caring human being, I urge you in the strongest possible terms to open your mind to the possibility that you have been captured by the highly scripted narrative.

    Now you might say what you believe is your business. It absolutely is! What you do with your life is totally your business!! But when the decisions you make, the policies, practices & decisions authorities make and you support & vote for affect my life - are a direct danger and threat to me, my way of living, and that of my loved ones, then I have a seriously major problem with that.... As do many others! Thus the strong push back. And we will not stop pushing back - there is far too much at stake.

    Please wake up!!!! If you and the captured majority continue to support this medical tyranny, the Canada we know and love will be forever lost to us. We will become serfs under the neo-feudal technocratic authoritarianism that is rapidly descending upon is. This is not a joke. It is very real and happening right now.

    It is time for you to wake up! 🙏🏻

     

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  • Tue, Dec 14, 2021 - 10:52am

    John Drake

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    John Drake said:

    I didn't mean to admonish emotional responses to these issues, in fact at this stage I think it is nigh on impossible to not be exasperated with those who spout blatant lies (knowingly or not).  Sorry if I sounded like I was trying to come across as a pillar of emotional fortitude - I certainly ain't that!

    I guess I am just jaded now to the point of not wanting to have to defend my position to the cult members, and definitely not to the pee takers.  When I started out on this journey of discovery I felt that it was my responsibility to share what I had found with those I love to try to protect them. But when they came back with 'oh, the bbc debunked that' or 'well, I read about a man who was 41 who was really ill and wishes he got the vaccine' I started to lose my desire to help.  Now I would never bring up the subject with anyone apart from my wife because it is such hard work if the conversation goes in the wrong direction.

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  • Tue, Dec 14, 2021 - 11:31am

    Quercus bicolor

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    Another reason to engage

    It inspired me to do some research and I discovered some things, for example about masks and CO2.  This is all in response to a comment from Yoxa:

    Some days the comments are a swamp of misinformation. One simple example was a recent comment about carbon dioxide building up behind a mask. That's false. CO2 passes in and out of a mask just the same as all the other gases in the air you're breathing. If it didn't, you would die in short order.

    Yoxa conveniently forgets about the dead air space behind a mask.  Depending on how tightly the mask fits, only some of the CO2 exhaled from the last breath is replaced by fresh air before the next inhale begins.  This dead air space comprise a significant volume of a typical inhale.  And the resort to extremes ("die in short order") ignores the range of possibilities including chronic exposure to moderately elevated CO2 levels in those who wear masks daily for long periods (kids in school and unfortunately out of school even out of doors).

    First, CO2 is present at a bit over 400 parts per million (ppm) in inhaled air and 3.8% or 38,000 ppm in exhaled air. Link 1  Link 2

    Second, my rough estimate for the amount of air trapped between a mask and your face: surgical mask: 10cm high x 15 cm wide x 1.67 cm deep = 250 cubic cm (cc).  KN95 is deeper, so let's say 350 cc.

    Third, typical volume of a breath is 500 cc (look at tidal volume in the table).

    Given that, and assuming no mixing between air trapped against the face and outside air in the 1 second or so between the end of the exhale and the beginning of the inhale, we get an upper limit of possible CO2 concentrations in inhaled air:

    • cloth or surgical mask: 250 cc of trapped mask air and 250 cc of fresh air gives us 0.5 * 38000 ppm + 0.5 * 400 ppm = 19200 ppm. Of course there will be some mixing of mask air with fresh air, so the actual number will be considerably lower, depending mostly on how tight the mask fits the face.
    • KN95: 350 cc of mask air, 150 cc of fresh air 350/500 * 38,000 ppm + 150/500 * 400 ppm = 26,720 ppm.  If the KN95 fits well, there will be very little mixing and the actual value will not be much lower.

    Now on to some studies:

    The first study says this in the abstract:

    In this study, the carbon dioxide concentration in the breathing zone was measured while wearing a surgical mask, a KN95 and a cloth mask. For the surgical mask, the concentration was determined under different conditions (office work, slow walking, and fast walking). Measurements were made using a modified indoor air quality meter equipped with a nondispersive infrared (NDIR) CO2 sensor. Detected carbon dioxide concentrations ranged from 2150 ± 192 to 2875 ± 323 ppm. The concentrations of carbon dioxide while not wearing a face mask varied from 500–900 ppm. Doing office work and standing still on the treadmill each resulted in carbon dioxide concentrations of around 2200 ppm. A small increase could be observed when walking at a speed of 3 km h–1 (leisurely walking pace). Walking at a speed of 5 km h–1, which corresponds to medium activity with breathing through the mouth, resulted in an average carbon dioxide concentration of 2875 ppm. No differences were observed among the three types of face masks tested. According to the literature, these concentrations have no toxicological effect. However, concentrations in the detected range can cause undesirable symptoms, such as fatigue, headache, and loss of concentration.

    And the main summary figure:

    Levels of CO2 were in the 2000-3000 PPM range.  The bolded text, however suggests that symptoms are present for many.  I argue that these point to possible long-term problems of frequent and prolonged mask wearing.

    Now for the second study:

    The black line shows no-mask values.  Blue is for a powered respirator. Red is for a KN95.  Black is for a valved respirator (I assume a reusable rubber face mask or an N95 with an exhalation valve).  These values are in percent and are much larger.  The KN95 value is 2.6% or 26,000 ppm, nearly identical to my rough calculation.  Note that the value exceeds the NIOSH 8 hour exposure limit by a large margin and is not far below the 15 minute exposure limit.  This suggests that KN95 masks should not be worn for longer than 15 or at most 30 minutes.  Of course there is the question of the difference between the two studies.  But I think we've all experienced the breathlessness that comes from wearing an N95 or KN95 and even a surgical or cloth mask.

    Finally, I'll link to this study which is a review of many, many mask studies on many different aspects of mask wearing.  I skimmed through it in about 10 minutes, but I think it's worth reading thoroughly.  It does suggest that I overestimated dead air space significantly, but also failed to account for the dead air space in the respiratory tract.  And here is one more that is worth the read, more of an opinion piece, but with links to real studies.

    So lots of downside, so those masks better work, but even the CDC's data (not from randomized controlled trials) shows only a smallish reduction.  None of the RCTs done to date show any meaningful impact of mask wearing.

    A few more corrections, once again, Yoxa:

    If you lived in a cold climate you could see your breath and know that your little cloud is always there even when you're breathing quietly. That cloud is much smaller with a mask. Yes, I've tested that.

    But that cloud is condensation that happens after air leaves your mouth and mixes with cold ambient air.  The condensation occurs on condensation nuclei which include the droplets you do exhale all the time as well as dust and, of course, viral particles.  When wearing a mask, the air behind the mask is warm and condensation will not occur until the air leaves the mask or encounters the colder outer layers of the mask in which case the condensation is onto the mask.

    Finally, (once again Yoxa), you keep introducing the fact that the Pfizer dose for children is smaller as if that somehow suggests or proves that this makes the vaccine safe for children.  Only high quality real world data of actual impacts on children can prove that.

    I think others have addressed your issues about the unvaccinated protecting themselves.  We on this forum obviously do that.

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  • Tue, Dec 14, 2021 - 12:12pm

    Jim H

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    Super high level technical discussion - well done Quercus!

    Excellent technical discussion regarding masks.  I learned a lot from this discussion.  Quercus said;

      But that cloud is condensation that happens after air leaves your mouth and mixes with cold ambient air. The condensation occurs on condensation nuclei which include the droplets you do exhale all the time as well as dust and, of course, viral particles. When wearing a mask, the air behind the mask is warm and condensation will not occur until the air leaves the mask or encounters the colder outer layers of the mask in which case the condensation is onto the mask.

    I had not previously put 2 + 2 together, but this is exactly right.  In fact the phenomenon of condensation nucleation has been used in analytical instruments to make the smallest particles visible by growing their effective size such that they scatter (more) light and can be detected;

    https://www.eol.ucar.edu/instruments/condensation-nucleus-counter-butanol

     

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  • Tue, Dec 14, 2021 - 1:14pm

    Quercus bicolor

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    Quercus bicolor said:

    This article by Julius Ruechel points to the importance of getting infected by rapidly evolving respiratory viruses every few years in order to keep the infections mild or asymptomatic.  If you protect yourself too well, your next infection might be in 10 years at which point the virus has evolved enough to more fully evade your immune system and cause a more severe infection.

    I think this just happened to me.  I had a cold for the first time in probably 5 years or more (although there were probably some asymptomatic or very mild ones mixed in.  It was moderate - causing a sore throat and body aches for 2 days along with a copiously runny nose.  This is probably my worst cold in 10 years even with all of the immune boosting supplements/diet/activity.  I suspect it is due to the fact that I was not exposed for over a year during the pandemic.

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  • Tue, Dec 14, 2021 - 1:15pm

    Quercus bicolor

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    Thanks Jim

    My meteorological training was good for something!

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  • Tue, Dec 14, 2021 - 1:26pm

    GBruno1600

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    The original "War of the Worlds" admonished...

    that even viruses and bacteria and microbes have essential roles to play in life.

    In the case of that story, it was the only thing that saved humanity from extinction.

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  • Tue, Dec 14, 2021 - 5:02pm

    Island girl

    Island girl

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    Anthony Fauci: Wouldn't be the first time vaccines made things worse

     

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  • Tue, Dec 14, 2021 - 5:57pm

    Mike from Jersey

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    Anthony Fauci: Wouldn't be the first time vaccines made things worse

    You mean that he actually said this:

    Dr. Fauci opens up the possibility that the COVID-19 vaccine could be making people more likely to be infected by the virus.

    That is astonishing. He wouldn't say that unless he has reason to say that.

    And what does he think? Does he think that he can just say "my bad" and everything is okay?

    We have people dead, disabled, paralyzed in untold numbers and he thinks he is going to say "my bad" and be done with it?

    Are you kidding me?

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  • Tue, Dec 14, 2021 - 6:03pm

    SagerXX

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    SagerXX said:

    "

    That is astonishing. He wouldn't say that unless he has reason to say that.

    And what does he think? Does he think that he can just say "my bad" and everything is okay?

    We have people dead, disabled, paralyzed and he is going to say "my bad" and be done with it?

    Are you kidding me?"

    This is why I see some disjunctive event -- internet down, general economic collapse, war, or a new (more nasty) bioweapon -- coming in before too long.  They won't just be able to walk away from the shitshow, they'll need something major to occupy everybody's attention and time....

    Just one guy's opinion, natch...  May Fortune smile upon us!...

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  • Tue, Dec 14, 2021 - 6:07pm

    Kathy

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    When is this from?

    Is this just some random clip they found from when Trump was still in office?

    Kathy

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  • Tue, Dec 14, 2021 - 6:07pm

    Kat43

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    Kat43 said:

    Of course he's lying about it having been proven safe in the early stages but can't expect him to be honest about everything all at once.

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  • Tue, Dec 14, 2021 - 6:19pm

    Island girl

    Island girl

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    @ Kathy: the tweet is dated Dec 13, 2021 - the video itself, not sure

    The video shows a conversation with Mark Zuckerberg.

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  • Tue, Dec 14, 2021 - 6:20pm

    Yoxa

    Yoxa

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    Intensivist

    An intensivist is a board-certified physician who provides special care for critically ill patients. Also known as a critical care physician, the intensivist has advanced training and experience in treating this complex type of patient.

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  • Tue, Dec 14, 2021 - 6:51pm

    Mike from Jersey

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    Replying to When is this from? (#175)

    Kathy, there is no date. But I can't imagine him saying this before the vaccine rollout.

    Imagine Fauci publicly saying that this vaccine might backfire and might make things worse - while intimating that the government should mandate a vaccination for every man, woman and child in the nation.

    I can't imagine that he would have said this early on.

    It would run completely counter to everything he has done to date.

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  • Tue, Dec 14, 2021 - 7:01pm

    Kathy

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    I can imagine Fauci saying this in October of 2020

    Right before the election and before we had the Pfizer trial data which oddly came out the day after the election.

    Kathy

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  • Tue, Dec 14, 2021 - 7:08pm

    Steve

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    Anybody can transmit the Sars-2 virus regardless of status ... as long as they breathe.

    Let's not forget that all humans can transmit the Sars-2 virus whether they are vaccinated, unvaccinated or recovered with natural immunity.  This is because the virus can copy itself in the air sacs of the lungs where immunity does not exist.  Watch Dr. Ted Noel's discussion about the transmission of Sars-2 virus.

    The vaccine card is completely useless.





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  • Tue, Dec 14, 2021 - 7:14pm

    ao

    ao

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    Yoxa, a few thoughts here

    First, the monetary incentives for over diagnosis in the US are enormous.  Having been in healthcare in the US for 41 years and having contacts all over the country from teaching in 40 different states widening the extent of my experience, I can unequivocally make that statement.  I also interacted with quite a number of Canadian healthcare practitioners and obtained information from them for comparison sake so this claim is not made in a vacuum.  These incentives are far less of an issue in Canada than in the US.

    Second, yes Canada has an obesity problem but not as much as the US.   The US has 37% more obese people than Canada with 36.5% of the US population being obese versus 26.7% of the Canadian population.  Also, comparing just one metabolic disease, diabetes (which is associated with an increased risk for serious cases of COVID), 10.5% of the US population is diabetic vs. 8.8% of the Canadian population.

    Third, population density could play a factor in a society where freedom of movement is valued and exercised.  The US has 9 times the population density of Canada with 36 people/sq. kilometer vs. 4 people/sq. kilometer.

    As an addendum, you comment on Trump's mismanagement of the crisis but ignore the fact that any treatment suggested by Trump such as hydroxychloroquine was immediately ignored, dismissed, or ridiculed, purely on a political basis.  You seemingly overlook how the situation has been even more poorly managed by the present administration.

     

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  • Tue, Dec 14, 2021 - 7:18pm

    Yoxa

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    More thoughts

    <snip> ... hit submit by accident.

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  • Tue, Dec 14, 2021 - 7:18pm

    Mike from Jersey

    Mike from Jersey

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    Replying to I can imagine Fauci saying this in October of 2020 (#180)

    Kathy, I have to disagree on this one.

    Bobby Kennedy's book makes it clear that Fauci's game plan now is identical to the one he ran during the AIDS crisis.

    1) Enlist the media and overstate the level of danger.

    2) Suppress effective, repurposed drugs.

    3) Push expensive Big Pharma products regardless of safety concerns.

    4) Tout a huge rollout vaccine as the end all solution to the problem.

    It is the exact same thing we are seeing now.

    I can't imagine he would say something early on which would undercut that plan.

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  • Tue, Dec 14, 2021 - 7:36pm

    Kathy

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    What does he gain by coming out now and claiming vaccines may suck?

    I hope it is a current clip but I’m afraid it will be brushed off as a, “it was a long time ago and it doesn’t matter.”

    The sitting in from of the NIDH backdrop feels older to me too.   But maybe that is just because I have largely stopped watching MSM.

    Kathy

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  • Tue, Dec 14, 2021 - 7:45pm

    Mike from Jersey

    Mike from Jersey

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    Replying to What does he gain by coming out now and claiming vaccines may suck? (#185)

    Well, truthfully, I don't know the date.

    But if this is recent - it might reflect an attempt to soften the blow he knows is coming.

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  • Tue, Dec 14, 2021 - 7:53pm

    westcoastjan

    westcoastjan

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    Watch the video instead of looking up definitions

    I know what an intensivist is, Yoxa, no need for a definition. Watch the video....

    And this is my last post to you, who are obviously hopelessly indoctrinated.

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  • Tue, Dec 14, 2021 - 8:01pm

    Kathy

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    I hope you are right!

    With omicron this should all be done soon, IMO.

    Kathy

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  • Wed, Dec 15, 2021 - 1:34am

    Yoxa

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    A cluster of responses

    This thread turned into a firestorm. Here are a few more thoughts.

    [Masks] are being used as a social oppression tool

    I’m curious: do you consider a business that says “No shirt, no shoes, no service” to be oppressing you?

    Yoxa, that moisture is probably mostly condensation from your warm, moist breath encountering the somewhat cooler mask.

    Exactly, and that’s the point. Droplets on masks are better than droplets in the air when there’s a nasty airborne virus on the prowl.

    I (we) can no longer trust what the MSM, Health Canada, CDC, FDA or WHO are telling us.

    Blind distrust should be avoided just as much as blind trust. A slightly cynical attitude somewhere in between likely has the most survival value.

    independent media, which is not captured or beholden to the medical industrial complex for its existence.

    Anyone posting in so-called independent media will have  biases and foibles of their own. Maintain some cynicism even towards things you want to believe.

    So please, if you want to get more traction here, bring the data with your comments.

    That’s exactly how my participation in this thread began. A simple comment with a link to back it up. But others did not approve …

    Medical Professionals are not ignorant - they are criminal

    Notice that 20 people liked that post even though it brought no data, just a story with the source not given.

    I call it outrage porn.

    I am the one who owns crazy corner, not you. 😊

    There’s more than one corner in this room. I’ll set up on the other side and we can blow kisses.

    A few days ago 96% of the covid cases in our ICUs were unvaccinated, even though those folks constitute less than 20% of the vax-eligible population.

    Are you certain of that? Do you have a reference?

    I heard it on the radio, but here’s a recent link to the same story:

    https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manitoba/covid-19-update-manitoba-1.6277617

    “Patients with COVID-19 now make up 34 of the 98 patients in Manitoba's ICUs, Warren said, with all but one unvaccinated”

    When did it become my responsibility to prevent you from catching a virus or bacterium that I may or may not have caught myself? It's not.

    That’s not quite what I said. I don’t contend that it’s your responsibility to prevent me / anyone from catching a virus. I do contend that you have some responsibility to take care you’re not spreading it. Don’t miss the nuance there.

    four years ago I tried to stay home from work because of a fever, … My manager told me to suck it up and get it done, then rest when the job was over.

    In that situation I’d say you were in the right and your manager let you down.

    Why are you here?

    Seriously.  I'm not answering anything from you until you answer my question first.

    I joined this forum a decade ago (anniversary coming up!) because I was positively impressed by The Crash Course.

    people wearing masks completely ineffectively …

    Yes, some people wear them wrong and sometimes it's funny and sad both at once. But that doesn’t mean no one should bother. After all, we don’t tell the world to stop hand-washing because some people do it poorly. Better information would help in both cases.

    I think you (deliberately?) misunderstand Pappy here. There is a huge difference between taking measures to not spread the infection when one is sick and preventing YOU from getting sick.

    You misunderstand too … “measures to not spread the infection” is exactly what I asked Pappy about. He denied that he had any responsibility in that regard. I didn’t ask him to prevent me from getting sick; that was his take on it, not what I said.

    That doesn't leave much ground to stand on when you want respect for your own bodily autonomy, y'know

    Now you really lost me. How is your health related in any way to my bodily autonomy? Or are you saying that the only way you feel safe is when you have control over others' bodies? This seems a confused statement to me. Could you , please, clarify what you mean?

    I’ll try … Pappy asserted that he had no responsibility to try to avoid spreading the disease to someone nearby. That doesn’t exactly show respect for the other’s bodily autonomy, does it? Yet he wants his own bodily autonomy respected so he can refuse the vaccine. He’s claiming a right for himself that he disregards for others.That just doesn’t add up.

    the vaccines don't stop transmission.

    Stop, no. Reduce, yes.

    Maybe if I could release all that, maybe my posts would be more effective.    

    Maybe while you’re releasing things, maybe turn down the sarcasm a notch maybe.

    I think it's humanity's duty to naturally spread naturally-originating viruses

    Oooookay. Does that mean you think COVID-19 originated in nature, not a lab? 

    This is human supremacism.

    Guilty as charged.

    you, who are obviously hopelessly indoctrinated.

    Again, guilty as charged. I apologize for looking something up in a source you do not approve of. 😉

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  • Wed, Dec 15, 2021 - 3:06am

    Tigress2020

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    This was on FDA site in March 2020 until removed

    This was up on the FDA Site March of 2020 until removed.

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  • Wed, Dec 15, 2021 - 7:28am

    davefairtex

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    social oppression

    [Masks] are being used as a social oppression tool

    I’m curious: do you consider a business that says “No shirt, no shoes, no service” to be oppressing you?

    Perhaps you aren't aware of something called a "false equivalence" fallacy.  Put differently: we can make a deal.  You let me decide if you can breathe, and I'll let you decide as to whether or not I must be shod AND whether or not I must wear a shirt.  You get 2 for the price of one.  Sound good?

    Yoxa, that moisture is probably mostly condensation from your warm, moist breath encountering the somewhat cooler mask.

    Exactly, and that’s the point. Droplets on masks are better than droplets in the air when there’s a nasty airborne virus on the prowl.

    So it sounds like you are in favor of reducing everyone's (sick, and well) O2 level by 50%, in order to reduce airborne viral spread - from only the symptomatic - by some tiny amount.  That's not only absurd, it won't do any good.  If you are going to be oppressive, might I suggest just oppressing the symptomatic?  Because they are the ones that spread?  I mean, if you are going to have an ineffective policy, at least focus the ineffective policy on those who are the source of the problem.  Assuming you're a rational actor, coming up with a rational policy.  Rather than someone trying to reinforce the narrative that "we're in a pandemic!"

    I (we) can no longer trust what the MSM, Health Canada, CDC, FDA or WHO are telling us.

    Blind distrust should be avoided just as much as blind trust. A slightly cynical attitude somewhere in between likely has the most survival value.

    Old saying.  Fool me once, shame on you.  Fool me twice, shame on me.  If you still trust WHO after all their lies, and the billions they've received from the BMGF - do you trust the CIA when they say "WMD in Country X"?  I sure don't.  They've lied to me too many times.  I go with the odds.  It's called "common sense."  That said, common sense appears to be pretty uncommon in some circles.

    independent media, which is not captured or beholden to the medical industrial complex for its existence.

    Anyone posting in so-called independent media will have  biases and foibles of their own. Maintain some cynicism even towards things you want to believe.

    Again, I go with the odds.  Those who are conflicted and lie repeatedly - I don't believe what they say.  Those who don't lie repeatedly, or have no conflicts, I believe more readily.  Again: common sense.  Which appears to be pretty uncommon these days.

    "Brought to you by...Pfizer!"

    Medical Professionals are not ignorant - they are criminal

    Notice that 20 people liked that post even though it brought no data, just a story with the source not given.

    "The Story" - in case you haven't been paying attention - has unfolded over the past two years.  It might have been similar in America in 1973, if someone said: "The National Security State isn't ignorant - they are criminal."  Everyone would have known what they were referring to: Vietnam.  But this requires common sense & understanding context.  Which seems uncommon these days.

    I call it outrage porn.

    That, or people are outraged at millions who have died unnecessarily due to the deliberate acts of our "health" agencies allied with Pharma.  Lets see, which might it be?

    A few days ago 96% of the covid cases in our ICUs were unvaccinated, even though those folks constitute less than 20% of the vax-eligible population.

    Are you certain of that? Do you have a reference?

    I heard it on the radio, but here’s a recent link to the same story:

    Canada is a special place.  Vaccines work especially well there.  Other places (where they collect data more rigorously) aren't so fortunate.  Germany, last week, had 34% of the ICU cases (all ages) vaxxed.  This has been steadily climbing since the vax campaign started.  It was much better three months ago.  It will be much worse in another two months.  The decline is straight line.

    Turns out, the vax declines in efficacy relatively rapidly.  That's why "boosters!" are being required.  Because the shots work just that well.

    Did I mention these shots also kill more people than they "save"?  Seems unfortunate to mandate killing one group of people with side effects so we can save another (smaller-sized) group (for 3-6 months) from ICU admits.  Side effects increase in a dose-dependent manner with each "booster" too.

    If only there was a way to Treat People Early, we wouldn't need to kill more than we save with The Holy Shot.

    Oh wait...

    Maybe if I could release all that, maybe my posts would be more effective.

    Maybe while you’re releasing things, maybe turn down the sarcasm a notch maybe.

    I've noticed that Pots are not so pleased when they feel the Kettles are too dark in color.  But that's just how Pots are.

    Super helpful to see where your priorities are though.  Even after a decade at the site, all you are able to wrap your brain around are "masks" and "vaccines" for COVID19.

    As you can see, I'm working hard to tone down my sarcasm.  What do you think?  Did I do well?

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  • Wed, Dec 15, 2021 - 3:05pm

    Yoxa

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    Dave

    Y'know, Dave, in all your verbiage in this thread you haven't addressed the data in the very first link I shared ...  results from four countries showing significant differences in death rates (or survival rates, if you'd prefer to look at it from that direction) in covid cases that correlate with  vaccine status.

    https://ourworldindata.org/covid-deaths-by-vaccination

    sounds like you are in favor of reducing everyone's (sick, and well) O2 level by 50%,

    50% is a phony number.  Stop making up fictitious numbers just for effect. When I see you doing that I have a hard time taking seriously any number you give about anything.

    It's kinda like "Those who are conflicted and lie repeatedly - I don't believe what they say. "

    Vaccines work especially well there.  Other places (where they collect data more rigorously) aren't so fortunate.

    Please clarify what you mean by "more rigorously". What is it about the report "Patients with COVID-19 now make up 34 of the 98 patients in Manitoba's ICUs, Warren said, with all but one unvaccinated"  that you are suspicious of?

    I'm working hard to tone down my sarcasm.  What do you think?  Did I do well?

    Not well, but better.

    Next you could work on  non sequiturs.

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  • Wed, Dec 15, 2021 - 3:44pm

    Friedrichs_teeth

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    Friedrichs_teeth said:

    The video that you wanted nordicjack to find. I think. Or another one similar

    https://t.me/CovidRedPills/10508

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  • Wed, Dec 15, 2021 - 4:00pm

    Friedrichs_teeth

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    Friedrichs_teeth said:

    This thread is amazing. I love when we re-litigate how we got to our conclusions. I have a spotty memory and forget the reasons why I know things. I can look it up, but it's much easier when I get to see an argument outlining the MSM position and then how ours  is different.

    Yoxa, thank you. If we didn't have skeptics in our group then we wouldn't have our conclusions tested. And everyone should have their conclusions tested. I think all the data is crap (and not to be trusted). But the one thing that they cannot take from me is my personal experience. So, I'll admit I don't know a great many octogenerians, so my data is probably 70s and down. I know of no one that has died of covid. You would think I would know one solitary person, but I don't. I know one long-hauler. I know a 34 year old niece who had a pulmonary embolism 2 weeks after the jab. I know a 65 year old woman that had MS developed the symptoms of Rheumatoid Arthritis the night of her first jab. So although I don't trust the stats, my personal experience says that the jab is more dangerous than covid. I could be wrong but the other piece of the puzzle that I think is important, in pfizer's own trials the number of vaxxed individuals that died was higher than the number of unvaxxed (all cause mortality).

    So again thank you.

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  • Wed, Dec 15, 2021 - 4:28pm

    davefairtex

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    all cause mortality

    I left you the one about the masks.  Glad you caught it.

    The point, as always, is in seeing what you chose not to respond to.  The dog that didn't bark, as it were.

    1) No mention of early treatment.  After ten long years at the site.  I'm still not sure what to make of that.  Reading comprehension issue?  I just don't know.  It reminds me of Fauci.  He "doesn't know about early treatments" either.  Except for vitamin D, which he takes.  But you don't even mention that.

    2) All-Cause Mortality.

    The shots kill more than they save.  Mostly the vaxxed people died from cardiac issues.  That's from Pfizer's own trial data.   Add "early treatment", "activity", "vitamin D", and normal BMI, and the shots - today - are only a good risk/benefit right now for the pathetically ill-informed, or the coerced.

    I get why someone might have taken the shot back in February, before we knew all this stuff.  Especially if they were old, and scared, and overweight, or with co-morbidities.  Or hadn't seen this data.  But now?

    I think Chris calls these people "The Data Hesitant."

    The shots are a bad business all around, due to All Cause Mortality + Early Treatment.  Neither of which you are able to acknowledge.

    Thanks for your response.

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  • Wed, Dec 15, 2021 - 4:57pm

    Jim H

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    How many anecdotals does a mountain (of data) make?

    Friedrich's said,

    But the one thing that they cannot take from me is my personal experience. So, I'll admit I don't know a great many octogenerians, so my data is probably 70s and down. I know of no one that has died of covid. You would think I would know one solitary person, but I don't. I know one long-hauler. I know a 34 year old niece who had a pulmonary embolism 2 weeks after the jab. I know a 65 year old woman that had MS developed the symptoms of Rheumatoid Arthritis the night of her first jab. So although I don't trust the stats, my personal experience says that the jab is more dangerous than covid.

    There is a new poster on Twitter that is creating a truly epic vax damage re-tweet thread.  In many cases the posters answer the same question, i.e. I don't know anyone who has died of Covid-19, but.....   and the stories are just mind boggling.

    People are pissed.  The vax damage is piling up and the stench of all the rotting (metaphorical) flesh is getting harder and harder to cover-up.  The poster has a telegram back-up mirror account based on the expectation of getting shut down soon.

    https://t.me/theysayitsrare

    Example;

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  • Wed, Dec 15, 2021 - 5:01pm

    Yoxa

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    Yoxa said:

    The point, as always, is in seeing what you chose not to respond to.  The dog that didn't bark, as it were.

    That's true in both directions.

    I ask you again,

    Please clarify what you mean by "more rigorously". What is it about the report "Patients with COVID-19 now make up 34 of the 98 patients in Manitoba's ICUs, Warren said, with all but one unvaccinated"  that you are suspicious of?

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  • Wed, Dec 15, 2021 - 5:31pm

    Yoxa

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    Yoxa said:

    I know of no one that has died of covid.

    I do, a couple in my personal circle and some in my area. One was an elderly relative who died before vaccines were available. Another was a neighbour who refused the vaccine primarily because her daughter fed her scary reports about it. After she died, the daughter decided to get vaccinated after all. I don't know what treatments were given in either case.

    Side note to Dave about the neighbour who died. She lived on the busiest street in town and her yard had more flowers than any other place in town. If you wanted to know what was going on in town she was the one to ask. I was away for a month and came back to learn that she was in hospital with covid pneumonia. When she died there was no funeral. People in town sometimes called her by her name, but were more likely to call her .... Granny.

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  • Wed, Dec 15, 2021 - 5:47pm

    davefairtex

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    missing SAEs

    So Yoxa - it doesn't matter how many "COVID" patients the shots save, if they end up killing MORE PEOPLE OVERALL than they save from COVID - due to SAEs.  Your "Manitoba" data just shows one side.  The other side: even more people in "Manitoba" have died from Pfizer side effects.  They just don't show up in your stats.

    This is what Pfizer's own trial data tells us!!

    I don't even need to pile on with "early treatment."

    Ok, I'll pile on.  Perhaps both those (EDIT: 2) people who died in the PFE trial from COVID would have been saved with early treatment.  Early Treatment + Pfizer Side effects makes the shots a terrible idea.  We didn't know this back in February.  We know it now.

    Who knows.  If "Granny" had received Early Treatment, she might have lived.  90% chance or better.

    Thanks for responding.

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  • Wed, Dec 15, 2021 - 6:20pm

    Phred

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    Finally, someone knows that a case is!

    I can't get past the definition of a case. Symptomatic, depends on whether vaccinated and showing symptoms or not, variable PCR cycle test for the vaccinated or not.  Do we just bow to the gods of test results? Discuss for your AI grade.

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  • Wed, Dec 15, 2021 - 6:35pm

    davefairtex

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    mortality

    Phred-

    Cases are playthings for Pfizer to toy with, so are hospitalizations.  Mortality tells the story.  It is the only thing even Pfizer can't fake.  Dead is dead.  No ifs, ands, or buts.  In the middle of a really unfortunate Granny-killing pandemic, if more people die in the "vaccine" group than in the salt-water group - it is really a bad look.

    I dug this out of the archives.  The FDA "download" for the Holy Shot:

    https://www.fda.gov/media/151733/download

    page 23:

    From Dose 1 through the March 13, 2021 data cutoff date, there were a total of 38 deaths, 21 in the COMIRNATY [vaccine] group and 17 in the placebo group.

    So the actual all cause mortality numbers from Pfizer: 21/17, instead of 15/14.

    Pfizer's own data, via FDA.  "Take Pfizer, die more often."  In the middle of a deadly pandemic.  Because the shot works just this well.

    I'd love to see what the all cause mortality from the boosters look like, but it seems as though Pfizer doesn't dare run a real trial. But given the initial trial data, hell will freeze over before I'll get either the shot, or the booster.  I'll take the salt water.  I have a higher survival chance if I do.

    And did I mention early treatment?

    Pfizer's own trial data.

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  • Wed, Dec 15, 2021 - 7:15pm

    nordicjack

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    Darwinism in effect

    I would like to say the problem is self-limiting and will resolve with the idiots volunteering to sacrifice themselves for the global agenda.   However, before they all perish, they will blame and want to kill all the living healthy non vaccinated people as the cause of their deaths.

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  • Wed, Dec 15, 2021 - 7:35pm

    davefairtex

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    self-limiting - Dr Malone

    Lots of people took the shots early 2021.  Malone was one.

    Data changed his mind.  That's because he's super-smart, a subject matter expert, and he's not working for the bad people.

    I think there are a lot of "Dr. Malones" out there who are on the fence, and whose mind can be changed by new information.

    I say this only because we need to keep space in our world model for people like Dr Malone.  They are amazing allies when they figure out what's really going on.

    Here is a recent substack by Malone, who as you know, is one of the inventors of mRNA.  Apologies if you've seen this already.  I thought it was really good.

    https://rwmalonemd.substack.com/p/between-the-forceps-and-the-stone

    Vaccinating children with the Pfizer mRNA vaccine to protect the aged?

    My name is Robert Malone, and I am speaking to you as a parent, grandparent, physician and scientist. I don’t usually read from a prepared speech, but this is so important that I wanted to make sure that I get every single word and scientific fact correct.

    I stand by this statement with a career dedicated to vaccine research and development. I’m vaccinated for COVID and I'm generally pro-vaccination. I have devoted my entire career to developing safe and effective ways to prevent and treat infectious diseases.

    ...

     

     

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  • Wed, Dec 15, 2021 - 8:01pm

    Yoxa

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    Prevention

    And did I mention early treatment?

    Yes you did.

    But if you mentioned prevention I missed it.

    I'm still keen to hear about your personal plan for making sure you don't spread the disease if you happen to catch it. Especially given the not-imaginary possibility that you might be asymptomatic and not know you have it.

    The rest of us might learn something useful from that.

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  • Wed, Dec 15, 2021 - 8:17pm

    Jim H

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    Treatment and prevention

    The vaccines don't stop a person from spreading the SARS-CoV2 virus, so can we please stop the word games that make it seem like they do?  Saying that the mRNA vaccines stop spread is simply propaganda... if anything they assure more spread and more asymptomatic cases, rather than less.

    https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.11.12.21265796v1

    Conclusions As this field continues to develop, clinicians and public health practitioners should consider vaccinated persons who become infected with SARS-CoV-2 to be no less infectious than unvaccinated persons.

    Treatment and prevention together, or treatment (of the positive and symptomatic) and proactive treatment of close contacts and family/household members is exactly how Uttar Pradesh effectively ended Covid-19.  As of Dec. 10, they had only 134 cases among the population of 230 million.

      https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/lucknow/in-uttar-pradesh-active-covid-cases-drop-to-134/articleshow/88196592.cms

    This is not a result of vaccines... it is the result of pro-active use of Ivermectin-based cocktails.

    https://trialsitenews.com/covid-19-in-india-a-state-declined-to-use-early-treatment-and-the-results-are-appalling/

     

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  • Wed, Dec 15, 2021 - 8:55pm

    PdeB

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    Dave and Yoxa, thank you!

    Your banter has been entertaining and informative. Kind if like a Braver Angels debate, but with lots of sarcasm 😁.

    I appreciate both of your efforts!

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  • Wed, Dec 15, 2021 - 10:00pm

    Friedrichs_teeth

    Friedrichs_teeth

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    Friedrichs_teeth said:

    There is prevention. Healthy weight, good terrain, lots of vitamin d, exercise are a few.

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  • Thu, Dec 16, 2021 - 2:21am

    davefairtex

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    and then to prevention

    But if you mentioned prevention I missed it.

    I'm still keen to hear about your personal plan for making sure you don't spread the disease if you happen to catch it. Especially given the not-imaginary possibility that you might be asymptomatic and not know you have it.

    The rest of us might learn something useful from that.

    Since you did me the courtesy of wading through the 90% improvement in mortality from Early Treatment, as well as the whole issue of our current "prevention" mechanism killing 6 people for every 2 that it saves (from Pfizer's own clinical trial, no less!), I'll now address prevention.

    Some probably know about this already.   Some do not.

    First of all, asymptomatic spread is very rare.  (Kinda like myocarditis).  Science says:

    https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamanetworkopen/fullarticle/2774102

    Symptomatic: 18.0% vs Asymptomatic: 0.7%

    symptomatic index cases (18.0%; 95% CI, 14.2%-22.1%) than from
    asymptomatic index cases (0.7%; 95% CI, 0%-4.9%), to
    adult contacts (28.3%; 95% CI, 20.2%-37.1%) than to
    child contacts (16.8%; 95% CI, 12.3%-21.7%), to
    spouses (37.8%; 95% CI, 25.8%-50.5%) than to
    other family contacts (17.8%; 95% CI, 11.7%-24.8%), and in

    Short answer: symptomatic spread - within households - where the vast majority of the spread happens: 18% from symptomatic people, vs 0.7% from  asymptomatic people.  And mostly to spouses (37.8%) vs children (16.8%) and other family contacts (17.8%).  This is all pretty common sense stuff, but I thought the numbers on this were neat.

    So what's my plan to prevent spread?  Well its pretty simple.  When I'm symptomatic, I am careful.  Heck.  I even wear a mask.  (but not two masks cuz I'm not stupid).  I try not to go out.  And I'm extra careful around the spouse.  Because - most likely - that's who I'd spread it to.

    That's the first part of my "prevention of spread" strategy: avoid contact when symptomatic.  It has a 96% efficacy.

    The second part is Early Treatment.  It turns out, if you can wipe out the virus early, you spread it less.  Spread is about "number of days with virus" times symptoms.  If you kill the virus more rapidly (using Early Treatment), you spread it less.

    Especially effective is the oral/nasal sanitation.  Virus lives in the nose & throat.  Kill it off there, quickly, and you spread for fewer days.  That's the second part of my prevention-of-spread strategy.  Shorter infection time = less spread.

    Lastly - when I get symptomatic, the spouse gets ivermectin close contact prophylaxis.  I've seen this work in real life; a very old guy was living with his daughter - who got symptomatic.  Dad got ivermectin prophylaxis.  Dad did not get sick.  Daughter was careful, and over it in 3 days.  It works.  Clinical trial showed an 88% success rate with ivermectin prophylaxis in a hospital setting:

    https://onlinejima.com/read_journals.php?article=683

    So in sum, I'll be symptomatic & infectious for far fewer days due to early treatment & oral/nasal sanitation, I'll be careful when symptomatic (no going to work - duh), and the spouse gets ivermectin prophylaxis.  Heck.  I'll even wear the mask, because it actually makes a modicum of sense.  In that situation only - when I'm symptomatic & infectious.

    Simple math says my precautionary strategy will be vastly more effective than "the vaccine."  And I won't triple my chance of dying, in order to "save my life" from COVID19.

    Are we good?

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  • Thu, Dec 16, 2021 - 3:19am

    Yoxa

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    Thank you, Dave.

    Thank you for this, Dave. When you lose the snark I can almost like you.

    I'll say more later. Other commitments will be keeping me mostly offline for a few days, so don't think I'm going away! 😉

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  • Thu, Dec 16, 2021 - 3:49am

    Mark_BC

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    Mark_BC said:

    I'm still keen to hear about your personal plan for making sure you don't spread the disease if you happen to catch it. Especially given the not-imaginary possibility that you might be asymptomatic and not know you have it.

    Ivermectin. Studies show it destroys the virus, even though the immune problems can remain long after.

    I caught it a year ago, didn't treat until the second day and it went away in the next day or 2 and I felt fine (then a week later it hit me again with long covid lasting for 6 months). I was with my 74 year old mom at the time and presumably gave it to her. She was a few days behind me and just starting to show symptoms. She got ivermectin when I started mine, along with most of the other cocktails known at the time and hers cleared up in a day without a trace. Of course no one believes we had it because I tested negative but that was a few days later, after I felt fine and the virus was gone. And because people snicker and think ivermectin is a conspiracy theory. The symptoms were inconsistent with anything else and exactly in line with covid. Nothing else gives long covid.

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  • Thu, Dec 16, 2021 - 7:31am

    davefairtex

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    more prevention evidence

    Thank you for this, Dave. When you lose the snark I can almost like you.

    I'll stop if you stop.  You go first.   Oh who am I kidding?  I enjoy snark way too much.  Fortunately, I get the sense I'm not the only one.

    Lots of things other posters have said works to stop the spread too.  Just melatonin alone was associated with a reduction in the chance of testing positive by 30% (and 52% if you were black).

    https://consultqd.clevelandclinic.org/melatonin-a-promising-candidate-for-prevention-and-treatment-of-covid-19/

    Analysis of patient data from Cleveland Clinic’s COVID-19 registry also revealed that melatonin usage was associated with a nearly 30% reduced likelihood of testing positive for SARS-CoV-2 after adjusting for age, race, smoking history and various disease comorbidities. Notably, the reduced likelihood of testing positive for the virus increased from 30 to 52 percent for African Americans when adjusted for the same variables.

    Even if this is some sort of "healthy bias" (i.e. "only healthy people take supplements"), it would seem to actually protective - of yourself, and others - to be one of those "healthy people."  Those who don't get infected, don't spread it to others!

    There were also studies on vitamin D from Israel which also showed a herd immunity effect if more the members of the community had a higher vitamin D level.  [Apparently, wearing the burqa - or the big Orthodox hat and coat - resulted in markedly lower vitamin D levels for people in those communities, which led to more infection for everyone.]

    https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.09.04.20188268v1.full.pdf

    In this large population study on individuals of diverse ethnic groups, we have uncovered what appears to be a strong and significant association between low vitamin D levels and the risk of SARS-CoV-2 infection. Individuals with low baseline vitamin D levels were significantly more prone to get infected with SARS-CoV-2. Moreover, marked variations in infection rates were observed in the different studied communities, and they appear to largely reflect the pattern of vitamin D deficiency within these communities. The highest risk being observed among individuals with severe vitamin D deficiency living in communities where manyindividuals have low vitamin D. Conversely, individuals living in communities with a low rate of severe vitamin D deficiency seem to benefit from a "heard immunity" effect, probably because their neighbors are less likely to spread the virus to them.

    This seems to suggest that if you have a high vitamin D level, you are less likely to be infected.  The single best way to avoid passing on the virus to someone else - is to not get infected yourself.

    Vitamin D appears to be an infection preventative.  As does melatonin.  Nothing works perfectly, of course, but I recommend - for the greater good, to "save grandma" - the FLCCC prophylaxis protocol be considered in order to better protect your family (and most importantly, your spouse) from infection - by first protecting yourself.

    You don't pass it on, if you never get (symptomatically) infected yourself.

    Let's add "not getting symptomatic infection" as part of my prevention strategy.

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  • Thu, Dec 16, 2021 - 8:37am

    Kathy

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    And do these folks have clearances?

    Dave,

    I am so glad you reposted the FDA pdf!

    These statistical “experts” have a lot of power and control, just wondering if they have been vetted and where their allegiances lie.

    Statistical
    • Clinical Data (OBE/DB)
    • Nonclinical Data
    Lei Huang, PhD, OBE/DB Ye Yang, PhD, OBE/DB Xinyu Tang, PhD, OBE/DB

    Hopefully they have been vetted at least as much as the 18 yo kid, checking IDs when you go onto a military base.

    Kathy

     

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  • Thu, Dec 16, 2021 - 11:10am

    Quercus bicolor

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    droplets on masks, maybe

    Yoxa, that moisture is probably mostly condensation from your warm, moist breath encountering the somewhat cooler mask.

    Exactly, and that’s the point. Droplets on masks are better than droplets in the air when there’s a nasty airborne virus on the prowl.

    Most of the moisture on the mask is direct condensation of free water vapor onto the mask where the mask fibers themselves serve as condensation nuclei.  Yes, the mask does capture particles, but on unsealed masks, many, especially the small ones which easily make the bends with the air currents, simply escape through the gaps.

    I wish I could find data on the theory that the mask fibers can break up large droplets into smaller ones that then have a very long hang time as opposed to. the larger droplets which fall to the floor within a few seconds.

    Where do you stand with mask wearing for children, especially young children and even toddlers.  Many of them have been masked at school (after they were finally able to return to school) and have consistently worn masks anywhere in public, including outside - perhaps to the point where it is a comfortable habit for them.  Do you have any thoughts on cognitive, social, emotional and other impairments that may plague them from this?  Do you see evidence that there are already impacts?

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  • Thu, Dec 16, 2021 - 11:22am

    Quercus bicolor

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    Jim's twitter link

    I suggest anyone who still asserts that vaccine benefits outweigh the risks spend an hour or even 15 minutes with this user's tweets:

    Tweets by theysayitsrare

    https://t.me/theysayitsrare

    If you find yourself steeling your pro-vaccine resolve with thoughts like "Those are just anectdotes."  or "But that doesn't prove anything.", or "Most of those are fake or exaggerated" then think carefully about whether you have any data to support your responses, or  just what fraction of total adverse events and deaths this thread must represent, or just why the precautionary principle is important.  Really hold yourself accountable.  This is too important to let your own discomfort with what might be the truth get in the way.  And remember that even in an hour, your not going to get more than 5% of the way through the list.

    Once your done with that, take a deep dive into the "vaccines are effective" claim.  There are plenty of good links on this thread.

    BTW, I tweeted all of the vaccine injuries I have witnessed, tagging @theysayitsrare. My tweets were retweeted on (her?) thread within minutes.  I suggest you all do the same.

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  • Thu, Dec 16, 2021 - 11:37am

    Not looking for chaos But always prepared for it

    Not looking for chaos But always prepared for it

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    Discussion in this thread

    I am mostly a lurker here. I've been trying to find ways I can contribute and am still working on that.

    With that I am glad that the discussion in this thread has been productive. IT could have went off the rails very easily. Thankfully, at least from my perspective, ego was set aside and as a result a great showing of discussion has unfolded.

    Being able to have discussion - even when we don't fully agree with someone - is paramount. Having friction in a discussion can be good. This is how progress is made with the comparison of differing ideas and thoughts.

    So Thanks to those involved in this thread in moving past disagreement even when it got a bit heated.

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  • Thu, Dec 16, 2021 - 12:53pm

    Jim H

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    Agreed Chaos....

    A little less snark goes a long way toward enabling good dialogue.. I am trying too.

    Who needs snarkiness anyway when our gov't health leaders make fools of themselves day after day, proving that we (of PP.com anti-mainstream consensus) were right all along?

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  • Thu, Dec 16, 2021 - 1:09pm

    Mike from Jersey

    Mike from Jersey

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    Replying to Agreed Chaos.... (#216)

    Good find, Jim.

    Now the head of the CDC (Rochelle Walensky) as well as the head of the NIAID (Anthony Fauci) both admit that vaccination does not stop transmission.

    The amazing thing is that many political "leaders" throughout the world are still pushing vaccination to "stop transmission."

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  • Thu, Dec 16, 2021 - 1:56pm

    Canuck21

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    Canuck21 said:

    The amazing thing is that many political "leaders" throughout the world are still pushing vaccination to "stop transmission."

    Because vaccination is not about stopping transmission. It's about power and control and obedience training.

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  • Thu, Dec 16, 2021 - 2:34pm

    Primary Care_MD

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    why theyre in such a hurry

    All these bad reactions are heartbreaking.

    It explains why TPTB are in such a hurry, to vax the world, before the people catch on, that these injections are intended to weaken us, kill us, make us infertile, or lock us into a lifetime subscription service of quarterly jabs. It's the Rockefeller depopulation agenda, disguised as a massive wealth transfer.

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  • Thu, Dec 16, 2021 - 6:28pm

    monks4christ

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    monks4christ said:

    How dare we offend our betters!  The dumb cow routine from society is as maddening as the anger I have for the evil perpetrators of this nightmare.  I was watching a montage of vax injuries and deaths and I just couldn’t believe how docile and dopey the people were.  There was no anger even though they were documenting what they believed are terrible vax injuries. And, I don’t doubt the honesty of their claims, especially since many were in the throws of episodes they suffered from. They can’t see that they are lab rates lied to and deceived to be those lab rats in a live experiment on humans. Many said things along the lines of: “I don’t know if I’d take it again”, or “I’m injured but I don’t know that I’d tell others not to take the shots”. What?  What the f#%k?  If the people who are ruined by this holocaust of humanity, don’t recognize the dangers or willing to stop others - with God forbid personal testimony of just using word - we probably really have no hope as a species. Even now, people are so obsessed with fitting into social acceptance. They can’t bare to be different by living out their own principles, their own rational opinions, or questioning anything.  They can’t see or acknowledge what has happened- can’t see the truth of all this. God forgive my judgemental response, but it’s like many of these folks just need to but up another Facebook post about themselves.  Anger and courage are the two daughters of hope (St Augustine). We’re running out of runway here; where’s the ‘hope’.

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  • Thu, Dec 16, 2021 - 8:54pm

    aether22

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    aether22 said:

    The vaccine cannot be mandated if experimental...

    FB says it's not experimental, so then what's this?

    CDC Officials Consider Pulling or Restricting COVID Vaccine Due to Dangerous Side Effects

     

    COVID vaccines that were approved were not safe, so then all insufficiently tested COVID vaccines must be considered untested as logic would have it!

    This obliterates the logic for covid vaccines being allowed in countries that have signed on to the Nuremberg code!

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  • Sat, Dec 18, 2021 - 5:55pm

    Yoxa

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    Snark and other thoughts

    Snark in writing is like spice in cooking. Skillful use of spices can enhance a dish, but dump in too much and diners won’t get past the first bite. The recipe is ruined and nutritious ingredients are wasted.

    So it is with snark: too much snark can make a message impossible to swallow, let alone digest.

    ———

    Someone who ends up in ICU from covid has clearly missed something in how they protect themselves.

    It's possible to do everything we know is "right" to do prophylactically and still get a disease, or die. It's also possible to take every recommended treatment for any particular illness and still end up in ICU.

    This is true. But unvaccinated folks are ending up in our ICUs in wildly disproportionate numbers. It's not just random bad luck.

    Meanwhile our overloaded health system keeps postponing surgeries and other treatments …

    The vaccines don't stop a person from spreading the SARS-CoV2 virus, so can we please stop the word games that make it seem like they do?  

    That is a vital point. Nothing “stops” the spread. Some things “reduce” the spread, though. We must be mindful of the difference in both our discussions and our decisions.

    The worst mistake I see is when someone too easily equates “doesn’t stop” with “not worth doing”.

    it doesn't matter how many "COVID" patients the shots save, if they end up killing MORE PEOPLE OVERALL than they save from COVID - due to SAEs.  Your "Manitoba" data just shows one side.  The other side: even more people in "Manitoba" have died from Pfizer side effects.  They just don't show up in your stats.

    You’re right they don’t show up our stats. More people killed than saved? Sorry, I’m not convinced yet.

    Either way, that’s not the whole picture. All those procedures that keep being postponed? Thousands upon thousands are suffering and sometimes dying as they wait. Be sure your fancy math takes those into account.

    You don't pass it on, if you never get (symptomatically) infected yourself.

    If you had left (symptomatically) out of that sentence I’d agree. As it stands I think your statement is wrong. It IS possible to spread this thing without showing symptoms and some studies find the frequency of that to be much higher than the stats you quoted earlier.

    Yoxa conveniently forgets about the dead air space behind a mask.  Depending on how tightly the mask fits, only some of the CO2 exhaled from the last breath is replaced by fresh air before the next inhale begins.  This dead air space comprise a significant volume of a typical inhale.

    I looked at this with a couple of my own masks and I’d estimate the empty space under the mask to be a few teaspoons at most. The mask fabric lies flat against cheeks and chin, with a bit of empty space around the contour of the nose. The percentage turnover of fresh air with each breath would be in the high 90s. 

    Where do you stand with mask wearing for children, especially young children and even toddlers.  Many of them have been masked at school … and have consistently worn masks anywhere in public, including outside - perhaps to the point where it is a comfortable habit for them.  Do you have any thoughts on cognitive, social, emotional and other impairments that may plague them from this?  Do you see evidence that there are already impacts?

    I see kids getting off the school bus and keeping their masks on until they get to the house, so yes it seems to be a “comfortable habit.”

    When masks were first required in our schools, a young boy I know declared, “We’re gonna be like ninjas!” He prefers masks with dinosaurs on them. Attitude is half the game here! Students don’t wear masks all day; it varies with what they’re doing and the transitions are handled without drama. They mask up as needed and get on with their day.

    I think concerns about masks causing impairments etc. are sincere but not as big a deal as some people fear. IMHO it would be more appropriate to talk in terms of (possible) delays rather than impairment. Masks might conceivably slow some kinds of learning but that doesn’t mean the learning is prevented. Keep the concern in mind but don’t over-worry.

    Last year Canada’s call-in radio show Cross Country Checkup did a segment about covid and one comment stuck with me that's relevant here. A caller was worried that her child wouldn’t develop properly if unable to see other people’s complete facial expressions. A blind fellow phoned in to respond to that and said he had never seen a facial expression, ever, but as far as he could tell he turned out okay. Don’t over-worry.

    (Apologies to Jan for believing something I heard on the CBC.)

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  • Sat, Dec 18, 2021 - 6:33pm

    westcoastjan

    westcoastjan

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    The Eleventh Commandment

    https://medium.com/@BDStanley/thou-shalt-not-be-indifferent-ce039cc83182

    ........Most of us as Europeans come from the Judeo-Christian tradition. Believers and non-believers alike accept the Ten Commandments as the canon of our civilisation. A friend of mine, Roman Kent, the president of the International Auschwitz Committee, who spoke here five years ago during the previous commemoration, could not be here today. He coined the Eleventh Commandment, which stems from the experience of the Shoah, the Holocaust, the terrible epoch of contempt. It runs thus: thou shalt not be indifferent.

    And this is what I want to tell my daughter, what I want to tell my grandchildren. My daughter’s peers, my grandchildren’s peers, wherever they might live, in Poland, Israel, America, Western Europe, Eastern Europe. This is very important. Thou shalt not be indifferent in the face of lies about history. Thou shalt not be indifferent when the past is distorted for today’s political needs. Thou shalt not be indifferent when any minority faces discrimination. Majority rule is the essence of democracy, but democracy also means that minority rights must be protected. Thou shalt not be indifferent when any authority violates the existing social contract. Be faithful to this commandment. To the Eleventh Commandment: thou shalt not be indifferent.

    Because if you are indifferent, you will not even notice it when upon your own heads, and upon the heads of your descendants, another Auschwitz falls from the sky.

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  • Sat, Dec 18, 2021 - 7:11pm

    davefairtex

    davefairtex

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    public health policy

    snark in writing is like spice in cooking.

    As with going unmasked, Snark is something that the Oligarchy can do, but when the Plebes try to do it - its just not cool.  Sorry Plebe, No Snark For You.

    This is true. But unvaccinated folks are ending up in our ICUs in wildly disproportionate numbers. It's not just random bad luck.

    Meanwhile our overloaded health system keeps postponing surgeries and other treatments …

    Totally agree.  The COVID hospitalizations are due entirely to the lack of early treatment.  90% of those cases would be eliminated if your health system had early outpatient treatment.  Maybe we should optimize the health system's utter failure in early treatments first?  Or are we still pretending that early treatments don't exist?

    it doesn't matter how many "COVID" patients the shots save, if they end up killing MORE PEOPLE OVERALL than they save from COVID - due to SAEs.  Your "Manitoba" data just shows one side.  The other side: even more people in "Manitoba" have died from Pfizer side effects.  They just don't show up in your stats.

    You’re right they don’t show up our stats. More people killed than saved? Sorry, I’m not convinced yet.

    Right so this is just simple math.  Once again, the Pfizer clinical trial showed that two (2) COVID deaths were avoided by vaccination (2 died from COVID in the placebo group, while 0 died in the vaccine group from COVID).  Yay vaccines!  [Page 12 in the supplementary material].  Are we good so far?

    https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.07.28.21261159v1.supplementary-material

    However overall, 4 more people died overall in the vaccine group than in the placebo group.  (21 vs 17, page 23 of the download, below).  Boo vaccines!

    https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.07.28.21261159v1.supplementary-material

    From Dose 1 through the March 13, 2021 data cutoff date, there were a total of 38 deaths, 21 in the COMIRNATY group and 17 in the placebo group.

    So quick math says that - the shots save 2 from COVID death, but then kill 6 for "mysterious other reasons" = 21 -17 = 4 deaths difference.

    I mean, the math really isn't hard here.  We all learned it in grade school.

    If you had left (symptomatically) out of that sentence I’d agree. As it stands I think your statement is wrong. It IS possible to spread this thing without showing symptoms and some studies find the frequency of that to be much higher than the stats you quoted earlier.

    Well duh.  Of course it is possible.  I just said it was unlikely.  I even gave a probability based on the study I quoted.  96% of cases come from symptomatics, while 4% of cases were from asymptomatics.  4% isn't zero, but it is a very small number.

    What study are you quoting to challenge my study again?  "Proof by assertion" isn't very compelling.

    Regarding that 4% asymptomatic spread - as a (former) professional problem-solver, I would not wrap myself around an axle over 4% of transmissions.  I'd focus on the 96%.   Why?

    Let's imagine masks had a 10% beneficial effect - that says masking asymptomatics would stop 0.4% of cases by masking the entire asymptomatic world.  This is not where I'd spend my time & energy.  0.4% won't ever be noticed.

    Instead, I'd focus my "public health" energy on early treatment.  These are huge numbers.  Also nasal-oral sanitation.  And vitamin D, and melatonin.  Those numbers are in the 80%/90%/50%/30% range.  Not 0.4% effect range.

    This simple math lens is how problem-solvers think.  We use basic math like this to figure out where to put our energy to get the largest impact.

    So if you were in charge of public health, you'd insist all asymptomatics wear masks.  It would stop 0.4% of cases.  Roughly speaking. And you'd force everyone to take the shot.  And then all the boosters.  And this would end up killing 6 people for every 2 you saved from COVID.  So while you would definitely stop 90% of COVID deaths with your vax mandates, a lot more people would die overall.

    If I were in charge of public health, I'd ask everyone who had symptoms to stay home, and/or wear a mask if they couldn't.  Everyone else could go mask-free.  I'd focus on prevention (vitamin D, melatonin = 60-80% case reduction), and then early treatment (which we know about; a 90% reduction in hospitalizations and deaths) for those who had symptoms and were staying at home.

    You stop 90% COVID deaths, but kill a whole lot more from vaccine SAEs.  I stop 90% of COVID deaths too, but no vaccine deaths occur.  Plus, most people don't need to wear those unnecessary masks in my world.  You literally kill 3x the people with your vax mandates than you save from COVID hospitalizations & deaths.  I avoid this by just focusing on early treatments.

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  • Sat, Dec 18, 2021 - 7:15pm

    westcoastjan

    westcoastjan

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    Other thoughts back at ya

    I think concerns about masks causing impairments etc. are sincere but not as big a deal as some people fear. IMHO it would be more appropriate to talk in terms of (possible) delays rather than impairment. Masks might conceivably slow some kinds of learning but that doesn’t mean the learning is prevented. Keep the concern in mind but don’t over-worry.

    I cannot let this go unchallenged.... while I am not a parent, I am profoundly deaf, and as such, I am an expert on the crucial, invaluable need to be able to see full facial features as part of the speech reading process to support the ability to communicate orally. This is no less crucial to childhood development.

    Oral communication is far, far more than just spoken language. It is supported by all the nuanced things that accompany sound - things your average hearing person never tends to think about. How the eyes, eyebrows, nostrils, mouth and expressions move to convey tone and meaning. Not to mention body language. When one cannot hear being able to read those cues is beyond crucial to understanding meaning, especially if the ability to hear tone and volume is also compromised. Without these cues, much if not all meaning is lost, to the detriment of those who are unable to discern them - whether from disability or forced mandates.

    Try telling a deaf person someone died, but with a smile on your face.... watch the confusion and struggling to understand. Try telling a deadpan joke, without your face conveying humour... Try telling a child you are angry with them while wearing a mask, so that they are unable to also see the anger in your face to match your spoken tone of voice. I could paint million more pictures for you..........

    I am assuming you have normal hearing because you would otherwise not be making such profoundly ignorant statements. So if that is really the case, then you far out of your depth, to the point of being offensive.

    You are incapable of understanding the depth of the agony faced by the Deaf/deaf/hard of hearing cohort, of which I am a proud member, because of these illegal mask mandates. We already experience significant social isolation because of all the societal barriers that exclude us from taking part. Masks have hugely exacerbated the exclusion and discrimination, making trying to take part in the activities of daily living a nightmare. Suicide rates in my cohort are reported to be skyrocketing.

    This is so not okay.... what you said discounting the effects of masks on communication and childhood development is also not okay. Please refrain from commenting on things that you are not qualified to comment on.

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  • Sat, Dec 18, 2021 - 7:57pm

    2retired

    2retired

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    2retired said:

    The mask effects for those with a hearing loss is not insignificant and a large cohort of people 'of maturity' (older types) use lip reading for the bulk of comprehension. It is startlingly callous and insensitive of those who are mandating the mask rules.

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  • Sat, Dec 18, 2021 - 8:34pm

    Boomer41

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    Joined: Nov 30 2008

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    14

    Masks Impair Communication

    At my age, it is normal to be somewhat 'hard of hearing'.  However, I was taken unawares by an abrupt and sudden onset of deafness coincident with the masking of society. All of a sudden, I couldn't understand the cashier at the supermarket or the waiter in the restaurant.

    Then it dawned on me. I have been unconsciously lip-reading all these years. Without sight of the other person's mouth and face my communications are severely hampered.

    Another thing for sure. A large part of the love and trust bestowed upon me by my grandkids is non-verbal communication by facial expressions. A big smile is almost as good as a hug.

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  • Sat, Dec 18, 2021 - 9:36pm

    Yoxa

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    Jan

    You are incapable of understanding the depth of the agony faced by the Deaf/deaf/hard of hearing cohort

    Jan, I have never in real life known someone profoundly deaf. I have more than one friend who is blind, but no one deaf. I have just learned more from you in this one post than I think I've learned anywhere.

    I was asked for my thoughts about childhood development in general, and I was thinking about issues for kids in general.

    I take your point that masks can create special difficulties for people with hearing challenges. (Is there a politically correct name to use?) Do you have any opinions about clear masks? I've seen those in a few places. Any recommendations? I realize that <I> would need to be the one wearing the clear mask.

    The point remains that public wearing of masks reduces the spread of the virus. I linked to some studies earlier in this thread, including one which tracked 340,000 people. How can society at large make life easier for you and your cohort without losing the public health benefits of a mask policy at this time?

     

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  • Sun, Dec 19, 2021 - 12:47am

    westcoastjan

    westcoastjan

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    I will respond in good time...

    I am experiencing far to many difficult emotions to respond in an emotionally intelligent way.

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  • Sun, Dec 19, 2021 - 4:38am

    Darrick

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    Yoxa

    You may want to consider the following paper about 'Children born during the pandemic score markedly lower on standard measures of verbal, motor, and overall cognitive ability, US researchers have found'

    https://www.bmj.com/content/374/bmj.n2031

     

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  • Sun, Dec 19, 2021 - 4:53am

    Mysterymet

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    My husband has hearing loss from his time in military

    This whole masking thing has hurt his ability to communicate in many situations and leaves him feeling frustrated and depressed at times. for what really? The fac3 diapers we are forced to wear are NOT N95 masks. They are about compliance not science.
    The whole remote learning and lock downs have really hurt our adhd son. We are raising a generation of poorly educated children because of this. We have paid for tutors as much as possible but it is hard to get a wasted year back. I am just happy he is full time this year ( yay midwestern state) but making up for lost time in education is hard on the kids.

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  • Sun, Dec 19, 2021 - 5:57am

    davefairtex

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    costs and benefits

    And I'm just going to point out that the "benefits" of masking asymptomatics - who are just 4% of "the transmission problem" - are vanishingly small.

    Mask people with symptoms.  That's fine.  Don't mask people who don't have symptoms.  That's not where the transmission problem is.   Duh!  Its about sneezing and coughing!  Mask those people!  But don't mask people who aren't sneezing and coughing!

    This stuff really isn't hard.  It is common sense.  And the common sense is backed up by science.  I'll quote that paper about "home transmission" again:

    https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamanetworkopen/fullarticle/2774102

    Household secondary attack rates were increased from:
    symptomatic index cases (18.0%; 95% CI, 14.2%-22.1%) than from
    asymptomatic index cases (0.7%; 95% CI, 0%-4.9%).

    To paraphrase Bill Clinton: "Its the symptomatics, stupid."

    And while the benefits are tiny - virtually impossible to detect - the costs of masking the asymptomatics in society are dreadful - to children, and the hard of hearing, just to name a few.

    And did I mention early treatments?  Reduces hospitalizations and deaths by 90%.  Why do we focus on the absurd policy of masking asymptomatic people - which does practically nothing - while ignoring reducing actual deaths by 90%?

    I just don't get people who think like this.  I really don't.

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  • Sun, Dec 19, 2021 - 7:06am

    richcabot

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    India again

    Uttar Pradesh proved the way to deal with this.  240 million people and 134 cases per day.  They use Ivermectin, not vaccines.  No hospital problems. No lockdowns.  We should be pounding our representatives here about their example.  Not arguing about things that demonstrably don't work.  Demonstrated by Kerala, also in India, where they do those things but no Ivermectin.  2.5 million people and tens of thousands of cases.

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  • Sun, Dec 19, 2021 - 7:11am

    A1Topgun

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    Why the hurry? To answer #219.

    Just one of AF’s tricks. ELIMINATE the CONTROL group! As he did with the short trial period, un-blind the study and offer the control group the shot. No more control group. No follow up after three months. (from Robert Kennedy’s book)

    Canadian Covid Care Alliance video - "More Harm Than Good"

    The Pfizer Inoculations For COVID-19 – More Harm Than Good – VIDEO

     

    Nothing to compare, move along, nothing to see here, it’s the new normal. Kids and teenagers dying from heart attacks and stokes. It’s normal, now putting signs on the sides of the buses.

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  • Sun, Dec 19, 2021 - 8:50am

    Kat43

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    Kat43 said:

    The problem I have with masking those who are symptomatic is they are rebreathing part of what their system is trying to get rid of.  More protective of people in the vicinity but more likely that the symptomatic person will have a more difficult recovery.  And so all the more important to push early and preventative treatment, including mouth/nasal irrigation.

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  • Sun, Dec 19, 2021 - 3:05pm

    davefairtex

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    symptomatics

    Kat-

    I'd suggest we recommend (as public health policy) that people with symptoms stay home, so they don't infect others.  The symptomatic people are the primary (96%) source of the spread.  No ifs, ands, or buts about it.

    So there's no need to wear a mask if you're at home - I mean its up to the household to sort that out.  We can treat the close home contacts with various prophylaxis treatments.

    But if symptomatic people must go out, then they probably should wear a mask.  "To protect grandma" - as a courtesy - since the symptomatic folks are (96%) the source of spread.

    This is the way Asia did this prior to COVID.  Symptomatic people wore masks.  But then it got all distorted.

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  • Sun, Dec 19, 2021 - 4:48pm

    Kat43

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    Kat43 said:

    I'd suggest we recommend (as public health policy) that people with symptoms stay home, so they don't infect others.

    Absolutely.  Which means being prepared to stay home.  Like having your arsenal of early treatments on hand.  Not dash out to be tested or to round up your supplies.  Especially when early treatment means immediate treatment, not waiting.

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  • Sun, Dec 19, 2021 - 5:18pm

    davefairtex

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    a cold

    Kat-

    Absolutely. Which means being prepared to stay home.

    Sounds like a good idea.  I'm thinking of a specific case where I got a cold last month, and then realized I didn't have betadine, or H2O2, or an antigen test (I changed locations recently) and so I definitely did dash out to get them.  So I wore a mask.  This wasn't required - nobody forced me - but I was coughing, and it felt like it was the responsible thing to do.

    Once I got over the cold (and tested negative) - then no more mask.

    It didn't feel paranoid to me.  Just a bit careful.  If I have no symptoms, however, it just isn't necessary.

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  • Sun, Dec 19, 2021 - 6:23pm

    Yoxa

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    Yoxa said:

    Jan, on a number of occasions you've scolded me in ways and for reasons that I did not consider valid.

    But this time is different. When it comes to this issue I will bow my head, pay close attention, and try very VERY hard to learn from whatever you have the patience to say.

    I send a hug.

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  • Mon, Dec 20, 2021 - 12:42pm

    YZ_from_Katy_TX

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    death rates vaxxed vs unvaxxed

    Hi Yoxa,

    thank you for the link, that makes it more clear on where you are coming from.

    TL/DR: death rates among the unvaccinated are significantly higher
    I have a few issues with this data:
    1) the data is provided by CDC. CDC has shown itself as not impartial. After almost 2 years of constant propaganda and lies, I have hard time believing anything that CDC officials say. You might call me contrary, but the more energetically someone is pushing me to do something, the less I want to do it. If you insist that I must trust Fauci/Walensky/etc., please, specify the date you consider them to be the most trustworthy. I have stopped listening a while ago.
    2) Looking at the charts in your link - where are the missing 14 days? the source tab explains that people vaccinated less than 14 days before were excluded from 'vaccinated' count
    "Excluded were partially vaccinated people who received at least one FDA-authorized vaccine dose but did not complete a primary series ≥14 days before collection of a specimen where SARS-CoV-2 RNA or antigen was detected."
    And then they go on to explain that they were also excluded from the unvaccinated
    "Incidence rate estimates: Weekly age-specific incidence rates by vaccination status were calculated as the number of deaths divided by the number of people either fully vaccinated (cumulative) or unvaccinated (obtained by subtracting the cumulative number of fully vaccinated and current number of partially vaccinated people from the 2019 U.S. intercensal population estimates) and multiplied by 100,000. "
    So, the comparison is fair between fully vaxxed and fully unvaxxed, but what is happening to the partially vaxxed? Where is the data on these death rates? Keeping in mind that the most serious adverse events happen the first 2 days after vax shot, I find it disingenuous that this data is not provided.
    3) And the fear mongering: the data points for October by age
    age      fully vaxxed           fully unvaxxed
    12-17          0.02                   0.02
    18-29       <0.01                   0.17
    30-49         0.03                   1.2
    50-64         0.2                     5.25
    65-79          1                       21.37
    80+            5.33                 28.7
    all               0.54                   3.47
    We are talking about at worst 29 people per 100,000 per week. I am not saying kill the grandma, but the message should be much more nuanced. In fact, I would say none of these people had to die if they took proper preventive measures and treatment. And still, people continue to die not because of vaccine hesitancy, but because they don't get proper information and medical treatment. Keep in mind that there are hundreds of doctors who treated thousands of people who successfully avoided death and hospitalization. Many of them didn't use the vaccines because they didn't have access to them and thus discovered very efficient and very safe protocols of treatment.
    4) The presentation of vaxx vs unvaxx is misleading. This is not a binary choice vax/no vax, live or die. Why is there no data on terrain and comorbidities on this chart? How many of the dead ones had vit D deficiency? Zink deficiency? How many had cancer? Type 2 diabetes? How many of these took IVM? At what dose?
    I find the death rates by vit D levels much more illuminating. As was mentioned before on this site, having vit D > 50 ng/mL basically reduces your risk of dying of C19 to 0.
    5) We are now supposed to rush to get a booster, since apparently vaccines are no longer protective after 6 months. Or is that after 2 months? So where is the data splitting vaccinated by the time after getting fully vaccinated? Forgive me, but I cannot get excited about 7x higher protection rate if it only works from 2 weeks to 2 months after getting the shot.

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  • Mon, Dec 20, 2021 - 1:17pm

    YZ_from_Katy_TX

    YZ_from_Katy_TX

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    A cluster of responses

    You misunderstand too … “measures to not spread the infection” is exactly what I asked Pappy about. He denied that he had any responsibility in that regard. I didn’t ask him to prevent me from getting sick; that was his take on it, not what I said.

    Ok. Then we are on the same page here.

    Curious that our minds got different meaning from the same words. I took his posts to emphasize that surgical masks are not effective and to contemplate the beauty of the natural biological system connecting humans and bacteria/germs, not that he would go out of his way to infect others.

    Pappy asserted that he had no responsibility to try to avoid spreading the disease to someone nearby. That doesn’t exactly show respect for the other’s bodily autonomy, does it?

    I think that it exactly shows respect for other's bodily autonomy. It is the body's responsibility to care about its health and disease prevention. So it is my responsibility to take measures to prevent my disease in the most safe and effective way I know how. And these vaccines just do not cut it. There are more efficient and safer ways that ALSO prevent and/or reduce transmission.

    the vaccines don't stop transmission.

    Stop, no. Reduce, yes.

    Don't stop and don't reduce.

    The original clinical trials papers openly state that there is no data on infectivity/preventing transmission. Current data show some benefit on reducing symptoms (by the way possibly contributing to the asymptomatic transmission issue) and number of deaths, but nothing on transmission.

    If you have data on reduced transmission, I'd be interested to see it.

    You also asked what can/should we do to prevent asymptomatic transmission. I would venture to say - nothing specific. As long as you are working to prevent your own disease, there is nothing that you need to do additionally. For all intents and purposes asymptomatic means healthy. If we don't accept that, then we might as well start wearing full hazmat suits everywhere all the time.

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  • Mon, Dec 20, 2021 - 2:17pm

    Mpup

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    Mpup said:

    It appears that all who have received the jab(s) are "partially vaccinated."   Would that be an oxymoron or proxy moron?

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  • Mon, Dec 20, 2021 - 10:00pm

    westcoastjan

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    Here you go, lengthy, but important to read, I think

    Thank you for the sent hug and willingness to learn. There is so very much that needs to be said about the detrimental impacts of not just masks, but all mandates, not just for the Deaf/deaf and hard of hearing cohort, but the entire disabled community. I could write volumes… Here is a primer on some of the basics for my cohort, along with an overview of the serious issues re the plandemic for the disabled community as a whole.

    To offer a bit is clarity for those who are unaware, uppercase Deaf is often used by those who wish to identify themselves as culturally Deaf. They see their deafness as an identity, not a disability. Lowercase deaf signifies those who have severe (profound) hearing loss that is typically post-lingual – incurred after oral speech developed. They may or may not identify culturally with the Deaf community. Then there is the hard of hearing group, which is significant and exponentially growing for two reasons: demographic aging and noise induced loss – typically from listening to loud music with headphones & ear buds.

    I identify with both the second and third groups. When I am wearing my speech processor, the external part of my cochlear implant, I have a basic functional level of hearing which is nowhere near normal hearing. To put this into context, a person with normal hearing can discern about 16,000 pitches of sound. I can hear 24 – that is how many electrodes stimulate my inner ear via the computer chip implanted in my head. When I remove my speech processor, I am technically deaf, unable to hear anything but the very loudest of low decibel sounds, when they are in close proximity to me. As an example, I would be able to hear a gunshot in the next room, although I might not be able to identify what exactly it was other than a loud bang. I would not hear it at all if it were outside my home.

    One in five Canadians, rapidly approaching one in four, has a disability. While currently shown as being tied for 5th place in the top ten disabilities in Canada, it is widely thought that hearing loss is actually the number one disability. This is because so many people with hearing loss, including hearing aid wearers, do not identify as being “disabled”. This is primarily due to the significant stigma associated with “being disabled”. While the statistics shown in the linked infographic apply to Canada, they can be extrapolated to other first world countries with similar demographics.

    Everyone who has hearing loss is a speech reader, whether they know it or not. Some posters above verified as much. Note that speech reading includes not only lip reading but all available visual cues – body language, facial expressions, and gestures. For the majority of us, it is safe to say that our eyes are more important than our ears are. Thus, the extremely detrimental effects of masks. Please also consider that there are people with disabilities and/or their families & caregivers who physically struggle with masks. A good friend has two children on the autism spectrum – every day is a battle with the masks, among all the other daily battles. What about people who have physical challenges putting masks on and taking them off? It is not fun, not by any stretch. And the thing is, when one has a disability, each day is already tough enough... We really do not need the additional hardship caused by masks – especially when the science shows they are not effective in preventing transmission of viruses.

    When one is unable to discern tone and volume, and is robbed of visual cues, significant critical parts of the messaging, including the all-important emotion, are lost. Consider this cogent explanation of the effects. This link has an embedded YouTube link that is of a simulation of what people with cochlear implants hear. I cannot vouch for the quality of what is played – but it gives a generalized idea for those who are curious.

    When the lockdowns first started, there was a mad rush to incorporate measures to work from home, distance learning, telehealth, and ordering take out food instead of eating in. Few organizations in any sector were prepared for this from the disability perspective, and especially the hearing perspective. Online meetings and lectures were conducted without closed captioning or sign language interpreters. Obtaining healthcare services became a living nightmare with no accommodations made for people who cannot use the phone, all of which was exacerbated by the extreme fear being fomented by the health authorities and complicit media.

    Try to imagine being heavily reliant on speech reading, getting sick with Covid-19 – a very real fear in the beginning of this - and being hospitalized surrounded by head-to-toe PPE garbed doctors and nurses. The mere thought of it was my worst nightmare. I eagerly awaited every report Chris gave, trying to find evidence to ally my fears and reduce the great stress I was experiencing.

    Restaurants and service providers rushed to implement phone in/pick up service, without having accessible options for those who cannot use the phone. It took a long time for online ordering to ramp up, and even when it was in place, far too many websites did/still do not comply with W3C accessibility guidelines for the disabled, leaving us unable to access services.

    Communication supports such as closed captioning are necessary not just for the deaf and hard of hearing community but also for people who have other types of disabilities. Many, such as those with neurosensory and cognitive disabilities prefer language in written form. Those in this cohort who are attending school at all levels, and especially those in post secondary settings, suffered/continue to suffer greatly. The lockdowns saw them lose supports in the form of access to personal assistants, captionists, interpreters, and note takers.

    In what was a mixed blessing, the ongoing lockdowns saw the demands for captionists, and sign language interpreters take off, which was great. But it created a huge supply bottleneck for these specialized services. Considerable lead time – months - is required to make bookings. There is no ability for spontaneity. When bookings are not possible, those who require the supports are unable to take part. They experience exclusion. This is a prime example of what the uneven playing field looks like for people with disabilities. While able-bodied people were able to seamlessly work or learn from home and continue on their study/career paths, those who were unable to take part in meetings, lectures, events, and networking opportunities were/are left behind.

    On the bright side, auto captioning features on platforms such as Zoom, MS Teams, and YouTube helped immensely. On the downside, far too many organizations in both the legacy media and alternative platforms are still not using these features, once again excluding those who require communication supports to understand all that is being said.

    There is one silver lining widely felt within the disabled community: that the able-bodied are experiencing barriers to societal participation for the first time in their lives. They are experiencing firsthand what it is like to be told what they can and cannot do. Where they can go and cannot go. What they can access and what they can’t. Many are experiencing precarious employment and financial stressors because of barriers they have no control over. Some are experiencing mental health issues. Most do not like it! Many are starting to chafe against the short leashes that are holding them back. To that, we in the disabled community say welcome to our world….

    It is hoped that the restrictions being experienced are temporary, that things will eventually go back to normal. I certainly hope so. But please remember that for many in the disabled community our restrictions are permanent. At least until society sees fit to do a better job of being fully accessible and inclusive for everyone.

    Yoxa, you asked “How can society at large make life easier for you and your cohort without losing the public health benefits of a mask policy at this time?” My position on this is that there are no public health benefits to masks. This is backed up by all the evidence presented on this thread, and all the other data-based discussions we have had at PP in the last 20 months. The masks have to go! The one caveat is that I do agree with Dave F - if one is coughing and sneezing, they should wear a mask if they need to go out. But ideally speaking, they should just stay home… hopefully we all have at least learned that much!

    This brings me to my last point: our capitalist culture, especially in North America, evolved to make staying home sick like a Cardinal Sin. For the longest time everyone wore their dedication and overtime hours like a badge of honour!!!! Work ruled our lives – driven by the materialistic consumerist mindset that we allowed to capture us. And now, for all the life and family-sacrificing loyalty, killer hours worked, so many of them unpaid overtime, and for all the times people dutifully dragged their butts into the office when they should have been at home in bed… they are gifted with the get the jab or lose your job dilemma. Speaks volumes about how we have been conned, and how little we are valued!

    Going forward I will continue to focus my efforts on trying to wake up those people Prof. Desmet estimates to be in the 40% that are potentially able to see the truth of what is really going on. I will not waste any more effort on those who my observations and impressions tell me are too far into the mass transformation to be worth expending any more effort on.

    Thank you for prompting me to respond, and to all of you who have taken the time to read this.

     

     

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  • Mon, Dec 20, 2021 - 11:48pm

    Phred

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    Phred said:

    I asked the question at a virtual meeting in Second Life, why can't real-time closed captioning replace the ubiquitous signers for the deaf?  Answer was that signing was a language of its own and much would be lost replacing it with sterile text.  Personally I think more is lost through the distracting sideshows.  Maybe that is just me focusing more on content than delivery.

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  • Tue, Dec 21, 2021 - 12:54am

    westcoastjan

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    Sign Language is a primary language

    Phred: for those whose "first language" is sign language - and there are many different versions for various groups based on ethnicity and geography - English or other spoken languages are a secondary language. There may or may not be fluency/literacy in the secondary language. Just because something is captioned does not mean everyone can comprehend meaning. As an example, if your first language is English, and you watch a movie that only has Spanish subtitles, are you able to comprehend everything?

    Some Deaf people are able to comprehend captioning well, others cannot, which is why sign language is recommended in the WCAG guidelines. It is a higher level recommendation (tier 3), an aspirational goal for organizations that are serious about accessibility for everyone.

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  • Tue, Dec 21, 2021 - 7:35am

    Mysterymet

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    Sign language

    Jan is 100% correct. Literacy in English is extremely difficult for the deaf community because the grammar of sign language is very different from that of english. It is a completely different language, where for the normal hearing community, literacy is easier because it follows with the spoken language. My older sister (who passed away a few years ago) went deaf late in life from a bad reaction to IV Antibiotics. She had to learn sign language as a second language. After becoming proficient in it she started teaching literacy in the deaf community to try and fill this need. She was excellent at lip reading and very few people really knew she was completely deaf. I am sad she passed away but glad that it was before all this. She would feel completely lost and unable to communicate in a world where everyone wears masks.

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  • Tue, Dec 21, 2021 - 11:07am

    Yoxa

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    Thank you for this, Jan

    Thank you for this, Jan.

    when the science shows they are not effective in preventing transmission of viruses.

    I accept everything you said except that point. I've seen too many studies which showed that masks do reduce transmission (earlier in this thread I linked to a few).

    My awareness of blind issues and the actions I take about it are far stronger than deaf / Deaf issues. I have a great deal to learn.

    I'm still curious about clear masks, by which I mean a "regular" mask that has a clear section (not one of those visors which don't actually enclose anything). Do they help at all?

     

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  • Tue, Dec 21, 2021 - 11:21am

    westcoastjan

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    re clear masks

    They are certainly better than non-clear masks although I know nothing about their efficacy. I find them to be inadequate myself because they distract my focus. The supply and use of them is so seriously limited. I surmise most outside of the Deaf/deaf community have little awareness of them. There is no point if only a few people here and there are using them. They should be kept on hand and readily available for all healthcare service providers - along with prominent signage showing they are available as an accommodation for those who need them.

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  • Tue, Dec 21, 2021 - 4:44pm

    richcabot

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    Two effects you missed

    People are not allowed to be vaccinated if they show any symptoms of COVID. Consequently the vaccinated group starts off with a reduction in infection rate.

    Vaccination status is often assumed by the hospital based on the records they have access to.  If the patent does not actively disclose their vaccination status to the attending physician they are labeled unvaccinated.

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  • Tue, Dec 21, 2021 - 10:29pm

    westcoastjan

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    One more piece of evidence debunking masks

    This from Canadian Dr. Byram Bridle - viral immunologist. Five masks worn, and they still do not stop transmission...




     

     

     

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  • Wed, Dec 22, 2021 - 12:56pm

    YZ_from_Katy_TX

    YZ_from_Katy_TX

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    YZ_from_Katy_TX said:

    Thank you, richcabot,

    These are very good points too.

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