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    Chloroquine: A Promising Coronavirus Treatment?

    Finally some good news?
    by Adam Taggart

    Thursday, March 19, 2020, 6:12 PM

Finally some good news? Several drugs show promise for treating covid-19.

Chloroquine (and hydroxychloroquine), an anti-malarial drug, is in the news today, prominently mentioned during President Trump’s morning press conference.

Research does indeed indicate that chloroquine has ‘apparent efficacy and acceptable safety against covid-19 associated pneumonia’, and has shown to help patients recover more quickly from the coronavirus.

Other treatments — azithromycin, antiviral remdesivir, and Kevzara — are now thought to make a positive difference, too.

This encouraging news comes none too soon, as countries around the world are now in a race against time with covid-19.

Entering the hockey-stick BOOM! phase, cases are jumping dramatically and health care systems world-wide brace for the coming tsunami of seriously ill patients.

Will we “flatten the curve” enough in time? We will find out very soon.

PeakProsperty.com just released an important new resource today: The Covid-19 Home Lockdown Survival Guide.

We’ve written this to be a comprehensive collection of the resources you need to stay safe, sane and solvent through the covid-19 crisis.

And it’s a great tool for getting everyone in your household on the same page — print it out and have them read it.

Stay safe!

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174 Comments

  • Thu, Mar 19, 2020 - 6:44pm

    #1
    kspurvis

    kspurvis

    Status: Member

    Joined: Mar 20 2020

    Posts: 1

    2

    Are Covid-19 calcs based on bad data?

    Chris ... first, thanks for the great & continuing efforts to get Covid-19 info out!  We appreciate it!

    Question:  A lot of the Covid-19 extrapolations / conclusions are coming from the rapidly doubling positive test #s around the world.  However, since the # of tests being administered daily isn't constant, but rather increasing rapidly (exponentially?), doesn't that skew the resulting data and any extrapolations from it?  Since we can't hold the # of tests being administered daily constant, shouldn't we be measuring something more meaningful, like # of people being admitted to hospitals each day (or that should be admitted to hospitals if beds were available) for a given population?  If that's doubling every few days, then we've got an exponential pandemic on our hands.  If not, then maybe we've got an exponential increase in testing on our hands?  Just a thought that occurred to me while out on a socially distanced walk w/ the dogs this evening.

    Curious to hear your take on this.  I'm not trying to say Covid-19 isn't as bad as you've been describing.  Rather I'm wondering if some of the extrapolations are to some degree (who knows how much?) a case of garbage in / garbage out.

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  • Thu, Mar 19, 2020 - 6:49pm

    #2
    rockintheapocalypse

    rockintheapocalypse

    Status: Member

    Joined: Mar 15 2020

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    7

    Ibuprofen upregulates ACE2 & may increase SARS-CoV-II binding to target cells

    From the Lancet:
    "Human pathogenic coronaviruses (severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus [SARS-CoV] and SARS-CoV-2) bind to their target cells through angiotensin-converting enzyme 2 (ACE2), which is expressed by epithelial cells of the lung, intestine, kidney, and blood vessels.4

    The expression of ACE2 is substantially increased in patients with type 1 or type 2 diabetes, who are treated with ACE inhibitors and angiotensin II type-I receptor blockers (ARBs).4

    Hypertension is also treated with ACE inhibitors and ARBs, which results in an upregulation of ACE2.5

    ACE2 can also be increased by thiazolidinediones and ibuprofen. These data suggest that ACE2 expression is increased in diabetes and treatment with ACE inhibitors and ARBs increases ACE2 expression. Consequently, the increased expression of ACE2 would facilitate infection with COVID-19. We therefore hypothesise that diabetes and hypertension treatment with ACE2-stimulating drugs increases the risk of developing severe and fatal COVID-19."

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  • Thu, Mar 19, 2020 - 7:34pm

    #3
    RebelYell

    RebelYell

    Status: Member

    Joined: Dec 21 2019

    Posts: 105

    4

    More interesting statistics

    This study (https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(20)30627-9/fulltext) from the Lancet a week ago states:

    Italy has had 12 462 confirmed cases according to the Istituto Superiore di Sanità as of March 11, and 827 deaths. Only China has recorded more deaths due to this COVID-19 outbreak. The mean age of those who died in Italy was 81 years and more than two-thirds of these patients had diabetes, cardiovascular diseases, or cancer, or were former smokers. It is therefore true that these patients had underlying health conditions, but it is also worth noting that they had acute respiratory distress syndrome (ARDS) caused by severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2 (SARS-CoV-2) pneumonia, needed respiratory support, and would not have died otherwise. Of the patients who died, 42·2% were aged 80–89 years, 32·4% were aged 70–79 years, 8·4% were aged 60–69 years, and 2·8% were aged 50–59 years (those aged >90 years made up 14·1%). The male to female ratio is 80% to 20% with an older median age for women (83·4 years for women vs 79·9 years for men.)

    Obviously not exactly great for older and sick people - but almost any disease has this effect on the elderly and sick.  I continue to believe that this virus differs from regular flu largely in the number of people who become infected rather than in the severity of the disease.

    I am also increasingly convinced that we should not be shutting down our economy and putting so many out of work and bankrupting small businesses.  The cost is going to be enormous and may very well end up causing more deaths and damage than we save.

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  • Thu, Mar 19, 2020 - 7:54pm

    #4

    AKGrannyWGrit

    Status: Silver Member

    Joined: Feb 06 2011

    Posts: 1047

    2

    OMG, Senator Richard Burr Warned Wealthy Donors on February 27th About the Virus

    Wow, just think if the American people were warned on February 27th.  This is a CRIME against humanity and it was all about MONEY.  This is SHAMEFUL!  It’s corruption!  It’s evil, selfish, arrogant, cruel.  I could go on.

    Take a listen, you will be pissed too!

    https://youtu.be/j0p9LaPXS_E

     

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  • Thu, Mar 19, 2020 - 7:55pm

    #5
    Hladini

    Hladini

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    Joined: Dec 28 2011

    Posts: 239

    8

    Best One Yet

    Hello Chris and Adam,  Just want to let you guys know that me and 100,000's of other people are indebted to you for this incredible work.  I might just write in Chris' name for President!

    I've been reading a very many of the comments on Youtube after your videos post (I've learned soooo much from comments sections)  and I am uplifted.  So many thoughtful voices out there.  Of course I filter, when I see dog sh- I just skim over that, but I would say a strong majority (85-95%) of the comments are positive, thankful, thoughtful, and/or helpful.

    The best news/information coverage I've seen in my entire life.

    And the hits just keep coming!

     

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  • Thu, Mar 19, 2020 - 8:00pm

    #6
    dreinmund

    dreinmund

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    Joined: Mar 19 2011

    Posts: 56

    3

    Low CFR in Germany

    Chris wondered why the CFR seems to be so low in Germany.

    It's due to very aggressive testing, and therefore, discovering a lot of cases.

    According to Federal Association of Physicians ["Kassenärtzliche Bundesvereinigung"], the number of tests for coronavirus where as follows:

    Week 10: >   35,000
    Week 11: > 100,000
    I don't have testing data for this week, or the weeks before Week 10. However, just taking 135,000 tests divided by 83.7M population in Germany would give about 1,600 tests per 1M people, not far behind Hong Kong.

     

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  • Thu, Mar 19, 2020 - 8:59pm

    ao

    ao

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    Posts: 1329

    6

    AKGranny, wasn't most of this information pretty much public knowledge by Feb. 27?

    Anyone keeping up with the news knew these things.  You knew these things if you were reading PP's blog.  Here's Feb. 27th for example:

    Coronavirus Situation Is Quickly Going From Bad To Worse.

    Are any of us guilty of a crime against humanity here because we didn't take out radio ads and broadcast it to the public?  That's just silly.

    It seems like the people in the video and you are creating a tempest in a teapot.  You don't think Democratic senators were doing this at the same time or earlier with their donors?  Go check on what Schumer was doing earlier than this.

    You can't be that naive that you don't realize most of what Washington does is all about money.  Always has been, always will be.  Same with almost every other government.  And they're virtually all corrupt.  And they're selfish and arrogant.   Cruel.  Sure.  You think sending our sons and daughters off to be killed or permanently maimed physically and psychologically in wars carried out purely for money isn't cruel ... and evil?

    The question is, other than spouting impotent outrage (which gets you nowhere), what are you, YOU, going to do about it?  That's the question each and every one of us has to ask themselves, myself included.

    Go read Free Lunch by David Cay Johnston or a myriad of similar books on the subject.  Then you'll really have cause for outrage.  But until you're ready to take the next step, so what!  So what!  Ranting and raving isn't going to do a darned thing.

     

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  • Thu, Mar 19, 2020 - 9:40pm

    #8

    AKGrannyWGrit

    Status: Silver Member

    Joined: Feb 06 2011

    Posts: 1047

    1

    Nope

    Perhaps the information was available but it was not front and center in the publics consciousness.  It is the responsibility of our Government officials to make this kind of information a priority for the American people.

    So what!  Ranting and raving isn’t going to do a darned thing.

    You are wrong, it’s people who deeply care enough to rant and rave that make a difference. We would still have an active and public slave trade if people hadn’t demanded change. Child labor laws,  pollution laws, safety laws, all becsuse someone cared.

    So criticize me all you want for caring! Call me  naive for being incensed at corruption.  These are not traits I am ashamed of.

    I won’t debate you or post again on this. You get to have the last word.

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  • Thu, Mar 19, 2020 - 9:57pm

    ao

    ao

    Status: Platinum Member

    Joined: Feb 04 2009

    Posts: 1329

    5

    Yep

    Ranting and raving does nothing.  Caring does nothing.  Lots of people say they care but do nothing so the words are empty and meaningless.  As the saying goes, talk is cheap.  DOING and ACTION does something.   So again, the question, what are YOU planning to do about it.

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  • Thu, Mar 19, 2020 - 9:58pm

    #10
    ao

    ao

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    Joined: Feb 04 2009

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    0

    the Chinese are taking this very seriously

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QW_7h8_CZp0

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y7nZ4mw4mXw

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  • Thu, Mar 19, 2020 - 10:00pm

    #11
    lsuzuki

    lsuzuki

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    Joined: Feb 25 2017

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    1

    Links referenced in your videos

    Please please please include the links in the text below your videos.

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  • Thu, Mar 19, 2020 - 11:30pm

    #12
    nordicjack

    nordicjack

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    Joined: Feb 03 2020

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    0

    I have been going over the data and reached a conclusion

    of course all the data from china is not posted. However, I think they have selectively provided a subset of data that reflects the numbers to their best ability.  Meaning the ratio of sickness and death and hospitalization in genuine.

    I also believe that the data coming out of Italy is very reliable.  Though they got caught off guard with virus , they have taken specific measure since , and are doing a lot testing.. and offer us some really good information.  Though at face value, it looks like the death rate in Italy is twice china - or wuhan,    Where many other parts of the world are posting much lower CFR.    I believe what we are seeing , is the curve we are trying to flatten and what happens when you cannot.   if you have the best of care , you could see a 1% CFR or even lower..  With really good care you see about 2.5 percent.   Once you start to get overwhelmed it can go up fast from there.    What we are seeing in italy is what happens when you cannot treat everyone or everyone timely.    People with serious illness that could survive if given good treatment - will parish.. and this is where you can start to see up to a 10% CFR.   I do not believe the data is misleading or not in agreement - in fact , I believe the picture is coming together.

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  • Thu, Mar 19, 2020 - 11:42pm

    Johnnybuoy007

    Johnnybuoy007

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    Covid 19..2.5 months in , Queenslnd Australia..FACTS.

    ..Adding my 2 bits of actual Covid 19 facts.Covid 19 has been in South East Queensland Australia for at least 2.5 months, particularly on the Gold Coast about an hour south of Brisbane.Chinese have been coming and going from Wuhan and half a dozen other major Chinese cities up until about 2 weeks ago, ..at will.We are the favorite Tourist spot at present for Chinese Tourists heading to warmer climates.We are like Orlando Fl.Theme parks, beaches etc..A couple weeks ago my friend went in to the Docs for a checkup because of feeling flu type illness..wondering...because of no testing for Covid 19 available..the doctor stated.."if we suspect Covid 19, prescribe Doxycycline, as at the time there was no requirements to show up at a hospital...and that also wasnt advised ...phoning first was....So she was prescribed Doxycycline...better known as  Chloroquine..we are having no increased runs on the hospitals for bad flu sickness, ..just are not.They have just started testing for more COVD 19 cases and sure enough, as most predicted and my Doc said they would find...lots of Covid 19 cases...only going through the sickness as the flu.No increase in the mortality rate as a percentage...the facts are....as of today 6 deaths in Queensland attributed to Covid 19.As of the last week or so of actual more mass testing, the facts state, a dramatically reduced mortality rate.Fact..we have been going through this as the "Flu" for over 2 months...Facts...except for it affecting the elderly and immune system challenged folks more...who we are now looking after better as advised...it has actually had less affects than the common flu...and as has been shown to date..mostly mild flu type symptoms....you asked for some clarity of percentages based on increased testing states...dramatically reduced mortality rate, as they are and will continue to find hugely increased infected cases with Covid 19...especially here on the Chinese loved Gold Coast ..( also thousands of Chinese students living and schooling on the Gold Coast, who travel regularly home to Wuhan and other cities )..Why did they not test quicker like Hong Kong...Germany ?..good question..maybe they the "WHO AND CDC " needed a higher mortality number to push forward a treatment route financed by a higher level of outbreak and mortality ...to receive billions of dollars of funding ?...THESE are questions that we will need to look into after getting through this outbreak.....JUST LOOKED AT THE TV A FEW SECONDS AGO...ANNOUNCED 50 NEW COVID 19 CASES CONFIRMED OVERNIGHT ON THE GOLD COAST.......NOT ONE ADMISSION OF THEM ALL TO THE HOSPITAL..ALL TOLD TO GO HOME AND SELF ISOLATE....THOSE ARE THE FACTS OVER HERE..TO DATE....OBVIOUSLY it will be different in other places...HOWEVER...we have had a high number going through this for over 2 months...and  that should tell a far more FACTUAL hopeful tale than what is being told...I believe, this will be over faster than thought and more miraculously than thought...and the market will also turn around overnight and miraculously and suddenly...WE ARE LEARNING A LOT ABOUT OURSELVES AS A COMBINED HUMAN RACE..LETS HOPE WE PUT THE LESSONS LEARNT AND BEING LEARNED INTO PLAY THERAFTER...

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  • Fri, Mar 20, 2020 - 1:25am

    #14
    Linda T

    Linda T

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    Joined: Jun 09 2014

    Posts: 132

    1

    (Yesterday's now) Today's video on Chloroquine, Chloroquine and “natural zinc ionophore searches” anti-malaria alternatives for Coronavirus

    Hello again, I apologize, but after I logged out I realized this is the thread where I had wanted to post this, so I'm re-posting my latest comment here. My bad.

    Hello,

    After watching today’s video which was very informative. I want to be able to feel hopeful yet remain cautious and curious. Just in case a prescription is required, and who knows doctors maybe too overwhelmed by cases, people wanting to be tested, to see a new person wanting a prescription. Since I am not on any, and wish to avoid them as much as possible for many reasons, costs, side effects, etc. And, for the last 20-30 years, whenever possible I look for holistic methods or natural herbs to use. After all “Eastern” and alternative medicine has been around for centuries and Western for 100-200 years.

    So, I looked, and apparently I’m not the only one who searched. From one website, http://drdahlman.com/chloroquine-and-natural-solutions-for-coronavirus/, I found:
    “…A google search of “natural zinc ionophore” yields these results:
    https://duckduckgo.com/?q=natural+zinc+ionophore&t=ffnt&ia=web
    From this page, the most interesting result is:

    Zinc Ionophore Activity of Quercetin and Epigallocatechin-gallate

    https://pubs.acs.org/doi/10.1021/jf5014633

    Quercetin is a flavonoid antioxidant that’s found in plant foods such as leafy greens, tomatoes, berries and broccoli. It has been studied and proven to have anti-carcinogenic, anti-inflammatory and antiviral activity. It has been at the forefront for treatment of sinus problems.

    Epigallocatechin-gallate (EGCG) is found in green tea. It is also an anti-oxidant.

    This was a study to determine if quercetin and epigallocatechin-gallate can increase levels of intracellular zinc in mice with liver cancer.

    The takeaways from the above paper:

    1. Through fluorescence, quercetin and epigallocatechin-gallate were found to be ionophores and raised intracellular zinc levels.
    2. This is an animal study, not human.

    In summary, we have some interesting information here. It has been asked about at President Trump’s COVID-19 press conference (March18, 2020). Today, March 19th, there are more search results about than ever:

    https://duckduckgo.com/?q=chloroquine+and+coronavirus&t=ffnt&ia=news

    Chloroquine needs a prescription and quercetin and epigallocatechin-gallate can be found in health food stores. Dosage is unknown….”

    I also found:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chloroquine

    https://www.tcd.ie/tsmj/2003/antimal.htm
    (which talks about quinine which was introduced to western medicine in the 1600’s for malaria and further down “…qinghaosu plant, known in western countries as “artemisinin.” (also known as sweet wormwood).

    And, I found this one interesting too (but it’s getting late so I’ll look at it more later today after I get some sleep… “Kratom, which the government has been desperately trying to ban, contains powerful anti-coronavirus compounds”.

    Kratom, which the government has been desperately trying to ban, contains powerful anti-coronavirus compounds

    Last one…

    https://www.thefitindian.com/blog/8-best-natural-remedies-to-treat-malaria

    Any thoughts or feedback? I remember reading before about using quercetin in addition to zinc and Vitamin C,  as well as the other medicinals in Stephen Buhner’s protocol and update.

    Linda T
    (Portland, OR)

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  • Fri, Mar 20, 2020 - 2:30am

    #15
    Matties

    Matties

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    Joined: Jan 30 2020

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    Successful High-Dose Vitamin C Treatment of Patients with Serious and Critical COVID-19 Infection

    All patients who received IVC improved and there was no mortality.

     

    http://www.orthomolecular.org/resources/omns/v16n18.shtml

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  • Fri, Mar 20, 2020 - 3:04am

    #16

    Eannao

    Status: Bronze Member

    Joined: Feb 28 2015

    Posts: 204

    5

    Chris, maybe it's time for a more positive outlook?

    Hi Chris,

    I can't thank you enough for being so far ahead of the curve with your coronavirus coverage. It has made a massive difference to me and my family and that is worth a lifetime of subscriptions to me!

    Having said that, I think now may be the time to consider a more positive stance on this. I think your caution and wariness has served you (and all of us!) very well to this point as this pandemic crept up on the world. But now that the full attention and abilities of the world are focused on it, perhaps it's time to start looking for the opportunities. I don't think looking into the past will serve us. e.g. at what mistakes were made and what should have been done. There's no point crying over spilled milk. (Though I certainly think heads should role at many levels). I think we should focus our energies on trying to see through this crisis and how we should be positioning ourselves for the future.

    There has been a massive sell off in the stock markets and there has also been enormous injections of liquidity by CBs. The hive-mind of the world is working on solutions and we will get through this. This once-in-a-lifetime event may be presenting us with once-in-a-lifetime opportunities, and I'd really love you hear your take on how this will play out and what the recovery could look like. Thanks again, E

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  • Fri, Mar 20, 2020 - 3:45am

    Sparky1

    Sparky1

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    Response re: Congressman Burr's Insider trading

    After watching AKGranny's (admittedly biased but factually accurate) video link, I went to delve into whether or not Congressman Richard Burr did, in fact, engage in insider trading (source) -regardless of whether other political figures (Democrat or Republican) engaged in such insider trading/self enrichment practices and whether AKGranny had/had not used her "platform" to act to alert the masses or decisionmakers of such information.

    After drilling down into the original ProPublica (well-researched and documented) article that set off this firestorm, I went into Congressman Burr's statements submitted to the SEC (agreement to terms required to access) re: his $1.6M via 33 stock trades (sales) for dates  2/1/20 through 2/13/20 (the majority were on 2/13/20). Linking to YahooFinance (for better or worse) I looked into the corporate stock summaries and profiles for each of the companies listed on Congressman Burr's SEC submission. For the 9 stock sale transactions I got through, all were pharmaceutical, chemical, or communications companies that clearly experienced a "dip" in share stock prices immediately preceding the sale by Congressman Burr, and diving after (sometimes precipitously immediately thereafter) the date of sale.

    Based on my review, IMO it appears that Congressman Burr utilized privileged information that he was privy to via his role as Congressman and Chair of the Senate Intelligence Committee to avoid thousands of dollars in losses and profited by selling significant amounts of stock at a time when it was not "common knowledge" that the coronavirus was an immanent and potentially catastrophic threat to the health of US citizens and financial markets (per the WaybackMachine Internet Archives for USAtoday, NY Times, and CDC websites circa 2/13/20--the date of sale for most of Congressman Burr's stocks.).

    [Edit: While posting, my laptop lost power, I plugged in and restarted, pulled-up my very long and dense draft response and...inadvertently freakin' DELETED permanently the contents my response with detailed links. ['Cussing...#^*@(^)@)$!!!!#.##^&*#$^*!!!...to the Nth degree.] Someone else more motivated than me is welcome to reconstruct or replicate my research....]

    Do I believe that other Congressional "leaders" betray their public office and constituents for personal gain?  Absolutely! That doesn't make his actions any less grievous, disgusting, or harmful. He could have gone public with his misgivings and afforded citizens, health care workers and decision makers at all levels of business and government early warning to mitigate their risk and significant (even life-threatening) losses from the coronavirus pandemic. Congressman Burr provided that benefit to his donors and others within his network, but not the general public and his constituents. He should be held accountable, resign immediately and be charged with insider trading.

    Surprisingly and to his great credit, Tucker Carlson nailed it when he said of Congressman Burr's actions, "There is no greater moral crime than betraying your country in a time of crisis", and called for his immediate resignation. (Source, and Source)

    https://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2020/03/19/tucker_carlson_calls_for_burr_to_resign_no_greater_moral_crime_than_betraying_country_in_a_time_of_crisis.html

     

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  • Fri, Mar 20, 2020 - 4:17am

    #18
    Wulfric

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    Could you share the references quoted about Chloroquine.

    Hi Chris, Thank you first for such an excellent job.

    I am amongst the vulnerable here in the UK and decided to get some of this drug. Its a holiday drug here that can be got without prescription.

    A simple face to face consultation with the pharmacist and off we go.

    I tried this.

    Because of hb19 I cant have a face to face

    Because I cant have a face to face (They know me nyway) they cant give it to me.

    I cant tick the boxes on the form on the phone.

    The head office cant deal with me because of HB19

    I cant go to the doctors without serious risk.

    Its kinda stupid really

    So. I decided to pursue some of the nonsences and will go to the doctors, quoting my reasons and logic which will include citing those documents.

    Thanks again Chris

    Good luck with the garden

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  • Fri, Mar 20, 2020 - 4:33am

    Eggscape

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    Joined: Apr 06 2010

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    2

    Agree!

    I could use some uplift long about now. I start falling into a funk every time I see the "It didn't have to be this way." But that doesn't help anyone.

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  • Fri, Mar 20, 2020 - 5:04am

    #20
    borderpatrol

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    Joined: Feb 21 2017

    Posts: 65

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    Operation Covid, take away your freedom, we will have them begging to do it

    Wow, a total of 75 people have died from Covid in South Korea. That means how many have had it and recovered with supportive care? Typically, viral infections get only supportive care and medications like Tamiflu are only rarely used due to ineffectiveness. Chloroquine may work but it has it's side effects. If all we focus on is fear and data that is suspect, we will and are giving away our freedoms to a group know to be pathological liars. It won't be long till we are living in a country like China, no privacy(already there), no right to self protection(getting there), no freedom of the press(about 90%) there. It won't be long when we come to our border and it will say, welcome to Merika

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  • Fri, Mar 20, 2020 - 5:48am

    mark42

    mark42

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    Secret Recording of Richard Burr warning weaks ago

    https://www.npr.org/2020/03/19/818192535/burr-recording-sparks-questions-about-private-comments-on-covid-19

     

    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/mar/20/republican-senators-sold-stocks-before-markets-plunged-on-coronavirus-fears-reports

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  • Fri, Mar 20, 2020 - 6:45am

    phoenixl

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    Joined: Nov 01 2015

    Posts: 24

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    about insider trading in Congress

    Congressional members have always done insider trading. It used to be argued that you couldn't say it was illegal for them, because naturally they were the first to get information that could affect stocks and it wasn't their fault that they had this information! Back in 2012 they passed the STOCK Act to ostensibly stop this practice, but I have read in several places (sorry, can't remember where now) that they have ways of getting around the act, and that the act was too weak to really stop them. So once they are in Congress, they get rich through insider trading and building up their campaign chests, which they are allowed to take with them when they retire!

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  • Fri, Mar 20, 2020 - 6:53am

    phoenixl

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    About Ibuprophen AND hypertension meds

    My brother, an ER doc, just sent to me this latest letter from                             that it is not yet clear if blood pressure drugs of certain kinds are bad or good relative to COVID 19, because in second paragraph they note that there have been some upsides to these, so for now you need to keep taking them. see below:

    HFSA/ACC/AHA statement addresses concerns re: using RAAS antagonists in COVID-19

    Patients with underlying cardiovascular diseases appear to have an increased risk for adverse outcomes with coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19). Although the clinical manifestations of COVID-19 are dominated by respiratory symptoms, some patients also may have severe cardiovascular damage. Angiotensin converting enzyme 2 (ACE2) receptors have been shown to be the entry point into human cells for SARS-CoV-2, the virus that causes COVID-19. In a few experimental studies with animal models, both angiotensin converting enzyme (ACE) inhibitors and angiotensin receptor blockers (ARBs) have been shown to upregulate ACE2 expression in the heart. Though these have not been shown in human studies, or in the setting of COVID-19, such potential upregulation of ACE2 by ACE inhibitors or ARBs has resulted in a speculation of potential increased risk for COVID-19 infection in patients with background treatment of these medications.

    ACE2 is a homolog of angiotensin converting enzyme (ACE). ACE2 negatively regulates the renin angiotensin system by converting Angiotensin II to vasodilatory Angiotensin 1-7, diminishing and opposing the vasoconstrictor effect of angiotensin II. ACE2, ACE, angiotensin II and other renin angiotensin aldosterone system (RAAS) system interactions are quite complex, and at times, paradoxical. Furthermore, tissue expression of ACE2 differ in heart, kidneys and lungs of healthy patients, cardiovascular disease patients, and coronavirus-infected patients, and its role in the setting of COVID-19 infection in patients with cardiovascular disease is unclear. Furthermore, in experimental studies, both ACE inhibitors and ARBs have been shown to reduce severe lung injury in certain viral pneumonias, and it has been speculated that these agents could be beneficial in COVID-19.

    Currently there are no experimental or clinical data demonstrating beneficial or adverse outcomes with background use of ACE inhibitors, ARBs or other RAAS antagonists in COVID-19 or among COVID-19 patients with a history of cardiovascular disease treated with such agents. The HFSA, ACC, and AHA recommend continuation of RAAS antagonists for those patients who are currently prescribed such agents for indications for which these agents are known to be beneficial, such as heart failure, hypertension, or ischemic heart disease. In the event patients with cardiovascular disease are diagnosed with COVID-19, individualized treatment decisions should be made according to each patient’s hemodynamic status and clinical presentation. Therefore, be advised not to add or remove any RAAS-related treatments, beyond actions based on standard clinical practice.
    These theoretical concerns and findings of cardiovascular involvement with COVID-19 deserve much more detailed research, and quickly. As further research and developments related to this issue evolve, we will update these recommendations as needed.

     

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  • Fri, Mar 20, 2020 - 6:57am

    ao

    ao

    Status: Platinum Member

    Joined: Feb 04 2009

    Posts: 1329

    0

    phoenixl, or they make their children rich

    Most people don't realize that Warren Buffet's father was a Congressman and so young Warren was privy to an abundance of insider information.

    Insider information is the reason why US Senators have the documented distinction of being some of the most successful "investors".

    Yet the American public continues to re-elect these very same people.

     

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  • Fri, Mar 20, 2020 - 6:59am

    Tonya McKinney

    Tonya McKinney

    Status: Member

    Joined: Feb 06 2020

    Posts: 13

    1

    We all knew about this since January

    This story has been out in the media since January. You didn’t need anyone to warn you.  It was very obvious this could spread and become pandemic. Now is not the time to blame...now is the time to focus on solutions and helping those in need.  This site does that.

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  • Fri, Mar 20, 2020 - 7:19am

    Ision

    Ision

    Status: Member

    Joined: Feb 07 2020

    Posts: 125

    1

    Preparing & Selling Stocks Before The Sheep Look Up.

    I have absolutely no problem with informed people taking the rational actions, required to limit loss and harm to themselves.

    Anyone, such as myself, who alerted to the advent of the Coronavirus, just as soon as it manifested in late December (December 1st being first case reported, with a November dated initial infection), could very quickly determine the probable course of this pathogen by mid January.  Especially, if one possessed biological warfare expertise and knowledge of viral pathogens (again, such as myself.)

    Indeed, I am also an ex-member of the United States Intelligence Community, with the same, or possibly higher, clearance as Mr. Burr.  Within the Community, I served in its internal decontamination team, with world wide duties.  I became familiar with all known biological pathogens, natural and engineered, as well as all  Chemical and Radiological, sheltering and decontamination requirements.

    Without even having any source of classified information about Coronavirus, and relying completely upon public information, and broadcast media...I knew weeks in advance exactly where coronavirus was going to progress, that is was not going to be contained, how many were going to become infected and about how many were going to die.

    Remember, the Community is the most informed organization on Earth.  We know exactly what did happen..and is currently happening..in China, N.Korea, Iran..and everywhere else we wish to know about.  The Community is the repository for all human knowledge, all the classified information, including all our scientific advancements and capabilities....all human technologies.   But, we are not elected, and since the National Security Act, we are not actually controlled by our elected government.  We are a world unto ourselves, without checks of any kind.

    If knowledge is power, the Community has all the power.

    Since a rational person, with unclassified information, could easily realize how the stock market, and the world economy, was going to be affected by the coronavirus...and the coming, obvious, pandemic...WHY WAIT FOR THE STUPID SHEEP TO WAKE UP BEFORE GETTING OUT OF THE MARKET?

    One's official statements are NOT FREE of official control and official policy.  I have NO PROBLEM between an official government statement...and any statements made, which are NOT official.  No laws were broken and this is NOT a case of insider information...as it was ALL PUBLICLY AVAILABLE....and OBVIOUS.

    Anyone, with a lick of sense, would have dumped the market...or acted to position their assets...WAY ahead of the drones.

    Selling before the expected fall...is just the rational thing to do.  I did it, too.

     

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  • Fri, Mar 20, 2020 - 8:00am

    #27
    Ision

    Ision

    Status: Member

    Joined: Feb 07 2020

    Posts: 125

    1

    The Train Is Coming....

    Knowing the stock market was going to be impacted by coronavirus, and taking rational action to prevent loss...is quite different, than possessing secret information regarding exactly, which specific company's stock was going to increase explosively, and buying it all up...prior to any public information being available.

    People will ALWAYS complain about the UNFAIR advantage, REASON provides the rational.  Reason allows anyone to see farther down the tracks to see the train coming down them, before others...even those playing on the tracks.

    "There is a TRAIN COMING!"  You may shout at people, who amazingly seem unaware of the approaching danger.

    "What train?"  Some of those on the tracks may ask.  "I do not see any train."

    "It's RIGHT THERE!" You exclaim, pointing down the tracks. "Can't you see the SMOKE?"

    "Smoke?   What smoke?  What are you talking about?"

    "GET OFF THE TRACKS!  THERE IS A TRAIN!"

    "You're out of your mind!  Go away!  We are having fun here..and don't need your idiotic, fun spoiling, attention grabbing theatrics, to ruin it for us!

    ---You know the rest....

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  • Fri, Mar 20, 2020 - 8:19am

    davefairtex

    Status: Member

    Joined: Sep 03 2008

    Posts: 2188

    1

    selling before the expected fall

    Ision-

    Well I'm not a former IC member with fancy credentials, but in my post - I forget exactly when it was, but perhaps a week or two before the actual plunge date - I said I was buying puts for the first time in probably 8 years.  Once I did the math, it became pretty obvious when things would blow up.  One might even say I extended my put duration out too far - I had June puts, when April or May would have done just fine.

    Back then, the VIX was somewhere around 15. It peaked mid 80s.

    I mean, this is all technical stuff, but - I didn't only dodge the fall, I actually made money from it.  And if I hadn't sold off all through the plunge, I'd have made about twice as much, maybe more.  It was just too stressful to watch all that volatility day in and day out.  I'm used to maybe a 2% change in value per day.  20% change (both up, and down) is super stressful.

    Did anyone ask me about this?  A few did.  One asked me about shorting shale.  (My goodness, he's probably horribly rich.  He hasn't said a peep about his trade.  I just shorted financials & tech.)  One frequent poster, JAG, we talked about this extensively.  He bought VIX calls.  He did...well.  Better than I did.  He's now recovering from his ordeal.

    Burr just had someone else do the math for him, and he reacted.  Any of us could have done the same math.  I did.  I have "engineering" training, but the math was high school math, if that.

    All you really had to do was a) pay attention, b) do some simple math, c) believe what it signifies, and then d) take action.  c) is often the hardest part.  Recency bias is amazingly strong.  It felt totally surreal when I bought all those puts.

    Anyhow.  My two cents.

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  • Fri, Mar 20, 2020 - 8:28am

    ao

    ao

    Status: Platinum Member

    Joined: Feb 04 2009

    Posts: 1329

    2

    Ision, don't you know?

    You should have bodily picked them up and lifted them off the tracks despite them kicking and screaming and hitting you on the head, demanding to be released.  Otherwise, you'll be accused of lacking compassion and caring.  And then afterwards, you'll be required to entertain them since they can't play on the tracks for a while.  And don't you dare try to teach them how to entertain themselves.  You'll make their brains hurt and be accused of cruelty.  Eventually, they'll even accuse you of causing the train to come that spoiled their fun.  How insensitive of you!  Of course, the next day, they'll go right back to playing on the same tracks and even have their children play on the same tracks with them.  After all, it's their right.

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  • Fri, Mar 20, 2020 - 8:30am

    Jim H

    Status: Bronze Member

    Joined: Jun 08 2009

    Posts: 1206

    0

    Where there is smoke.... question for Ision

    Ision,  given your qualifications, I wonder if you would proffer an opinion - not that it really matters at this point.  From my perspective, there is a lot of smoke suggesting that this virus is/was engineered.  The finding of exact match HIV RNA snippets, first published by Indian researchers, later affirmed by China.  The location of the first cluster, near China's highest level bio-research lab.  Chinese-National researchers in working in Canada transporting Corona virus samples back to Wuhan, and ultimately getting ejected from Canada for doing so...

    So,  Engineered:  Yes or No?

    Accidental or purposeful release?

     

    The accidental vs purposeful question is kind of tricky.  Having been released one way or another in Wuhan, there is an immediate and very obvious connection to China's bioweapons research lab there.  But, were you to be making a purposeful release that you wanted to make look like an accidental release (at worst) then you would actually want to do it in Wuhan.

    Stay healthy,  Jim

     

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  • Fri, Mar 20, 2020 - 8:38am

    ezlxq1949

    ezlxq1949

    Status: Bronze Member

    Joined: Apr 29 2009

    Posts: 388

    1

    Doxycycline is not Chloroquine

    Not according to Wikipedia (which I presume on this topic is trustworthy). Please check facts and data before posting them.

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  • Fri, Mar 20, 2020 - 8:45am

    davefairtex

    Status: Member

    Joined: Sep 03 2008

    Posts: 2188

    1

    a CIA plot

    JimH-

    Two issues with the whole "it's a CIA plot" storyline.

    1) The CIA leaks like a sieve.  The number of moles discovered within that organization are legendary.  Go read about it.  I'm sure the Chinese have our fine IC community well penetrated, just like they have dozens of former congressmen and senators on their payroll, not to mention researchers, CEOs, and so on.

    2) This would be an act of war.  China would, without a doubt, find out about it (see #1, above).  They would respond.  This would lead to war.  Period.

    Given all the above, what sane person would authorize such a mission?  Its just crazy talk.  Never mind the whole blowback we are experiencing right now.

    Zero chance we did this.

    That said, I do think there are people within the community that are taking advantage of China's mis-steps to further the "decoupling" agenda.  An agenda which I am in full support of, and have been for some time once I realized the CCP was installing little bits of hardware on motherboards to create backdoors into every US server that was Made In China.

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  • Fri, Mar 20, 2020 - 10:06am

    Jim H

    Status: Bronze Member

    Joined: Jun 08 2009

    Posts: 1206

    6

    Thank you Dave..

    I support decoupling as well.. we in the US, and any country that is concerned about it's sovereign health, should be, "deglobalizing" to the extent possible.  We allowed the Corporate CEO's to profit way too much off of supply chain globalization, to our own detriment.

    I do though believe there is a globalist deep state that is presently at war with Trump and white hats in our military.  I am hoping that the white hats use this pandemic to their, and my, advantage in terms or restoring the rule of law in the US.  This is not a political statement.. just a statement of fact.

    People don't have to like Trump, but they should all understand that this is our chance to save the Republic.  If anyone thinks this is hyperbole, you are just ignorant - I'm sorry to say.  Don't though take if from me.. take it from Sidney Powell, a National GEM;

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LTV1Y_QuZOM

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  • Fri, Mar 20, 2020 - 11:01am

    davefairtex

    Status: Member

    Joined: Sep 03 2008

    Posts: 2188

    2

    one more thing

    JimH-

    One more thing.  Thanks for the post on Stamets and his mushrooms.  I read about him a few years back, but never acted.  After reading your post (and the linked patent, just fascinating stuff) I ran out and got myself "a fair amount" of his mushroom powder.

    I think I didn't understand before the concept behind why mushrooms are such good anti-virals.  If I understand correctly - mushrooms are exposed to everything given where they grow, and if they weren't so strong a life form, they would have died out long ago.

    The tests that CDC ran on mushrooms vs the various virus forms was really interesting.  I didn't go down the rabbit hole too deeply, but they seemed quite effective in vitro.  And the fact that the - I forget what they're called, the lower bits, have different action and effectiveness than the fruiting body both makes sense, and is super interesting too.

    The net-net is that this Stamets fellow is a really smart guy.

    The only issue for me is if their potency gets through my digestive tract and into my system.  But that's above my pay grade.

    I need 100 million bucks.  Then I'd do clinical trials on all this stuff.

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  • Fri, Mar 20, 2020 - 11:10am

    Hladini

    Hladini

    Status: Member

    Joined: Dec 28 2011

    Posts: 239

    3

    Got a Problem with That

    Ision,  If what you  say is true, it's just this type organization that needs to be disbanded.  No oversight; No elected officials; No accountability.  You're so-called Community has blood on it's hands.  A lot of Blood.  Considering that you're oh-so-powerful-Community is made up of living entities that have the four built-in defects:  subject to illusion, imperfect senses, prone to commit mistakes, and propensity to cheat, AND have insatiable lust for profit, adoration, and distinction, I think you're over-estimating yourselves.

    When a "Community"  has no oversight, an unlimited budget, the "goods" on every single worker in the Swamp and is not accountable to the voters, the result is along the lines of unlimited absolute power, followed by absolute corruption which is pretty much where we are at in the story.

    Since Iran, circa 1954+/- it's been the same CIA oldy-moldy play book over and over and over again, with the exception of adding drug running to the long list of criminal activities since Iran.

    Ision, Mr. Community Man, go float yourself and take the evil activities with you.

     

     

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  • Fri, Mar 20, 2020 - 11:20am

    Jim H

    Status: Bronze Member

    Joined: Jun 08 2009

    Posts: 1206

    2

    Nice of you to say that Dave...

    Yeah, I went through a similar awakening regarding the mushrooms kind of in real time here on the website.  It's not that I didn't appreciate the fact that pharmaceuticals is largely a racket, with efficacy of drugs often overblown, and side effects often suppressed or at least under-reported.  It's not like I didn't already realize that natural supplements, which could not themselves (note that Stamets patents are for methods of preparation) be patented, were not going to get support for Gold-standard studies of efficacy.  But, still, I had not put adequate energy into better exploring the world of natural supplements and their range of efficacy before Covid-19 came along.  Stay healthy,  Jim

    Edit:  The wispy lower bits are mycelium : )

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  • Fri, Mar 20, 2020 - 11:44am

    RebelYell

    RebelYell

    Status: Member

    Joined: Dec 21 2019

    Posts: 105

    0

    dreinmund

    Thaks for the link - this is the crucial point.  CFR is wildly overstated due to lack of testing in most countries.  I will add your testing numbers to my article.

    Corona Virus Case Fatality Rate

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  • Fri, Mar 20, 2020 - 11:49am

    #38

    AKGrannyWGrit

    Status: Silver Member

    Joined: Feb 06 2011

    Posts: 1047

    2

    Hladini

    Consider this.  Mr. Ision states his ideas and opinions in a matter-of-fact way without emotion or condescension.  I rather like knowing the way things are even when bleak.  I find Mr. Ision to have a unique perspective where he understands the high level organization, the motives that drive them and their relationship to we working folk.

    I agree that, at least in my opinion, there is often a lack of compassion and empathy for people and a tolerance of the status quo around here.  Thats why its important for those of us with emotions to stick around.😱

    And lastly we are missing something.

    Distractions

    • Actors with the virus
    • Tests - we have them, now you see them - now you don’t. Who has them, who doesn’t?
    • Oh look, Senators with the virus
    • OMG - someone said !$&@&!!
    • Look st supplements, medicine
    • Look at the numbers

    Over There

    • Renewing the Patriot Act
    • Trillion $ bailout
    • Countries dropping the $
    • Continuing or strengthening sanctions during a Pandemic
    • Blame for the virus origins
    • Other important activities we are missing?

    So what are we missing?  But wait, no, no don’t look over there, look, look, new numbers. ??

     

     

     

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  • Fri, Mar 20, 2020 - 11:56am

    #39
    parks6n580

    parks6n580

    Status: Member

    Joined: Oct 02 2008

    Posts: 6

    1

    What about Herd Immunity?

    Hi Chris et al,

    Been a PP member for a long time now.  I greatly appreciate what you guys do and the info you provide.  I have watched all of your daily videos since the beginning of this Covid mess.  Been following since the start.  I am having issues with the whole self quarantine approach.  We could all stay self quarantined for 30 days but unless the entire World does the same exact thing it is moot.  Someone will catch it and we will have to start all over again.  It will be an endless loop.  How do you ever achieve herd immunity (HI) with the approach being advocated.  How will we ever get back to a semblance of normality until HI is achieved.  I think that Karl Denninger makes some very potent points about this https://www.market-ticker.org/akcs-www?post=238528.  I have not heard you speak about this which I find unusual.  Perhaps you did and somehow I missed it.  Cheers, Jeff

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  • Fri, Mar 20, 2020 - 12:10pm

    #40

    AKGrannyWGrit

    Status: Silver Member

    Joined: Feb 06 2011

    Posts: 1047

    0

    More About Bioweapons and Blame

    https://youtu.be/cWT9RRzQpS8

     

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  • Fri, Mar 20, 2020 - 12:28pm

    #41
    Durable

    Durable

    Status: Member

    Joined: Feb 24 2020

    Posts: 34

    2

    Granny - we are missing something - a response

    Granny

    I think we have to respect the platform and its purpose. Peakprosperity has managed to avoid be deplatformed and has reached millions with advanced heads up on how to personally perform risk assessment and mitigation.

    If we run down the rabbit trail of what we are missing either PP will get deplatformed or the new arrivals will find the information lacks context and salience to their current knowledge and questions.

    That said, very valid questions which might be better explored on other platforms.

    Ref: Brandon Smith

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  • Fri, Mar 20, 2020 - 12:51pm

    #42
    kunga

    kunga

    Status: Bronze Member

    Joined: Feb 26 2017

    Posts: 368

    0

    Gene pool

    Some folks insist on diving into the shallow end.   Perhaps their role is to provide an example or entertainment.  For fulfilling their mission I wish them a speedy reincarnation into a wiser life.

    Rules for walking the tracks:  1) Look behind you every 100 steps.  2) When you get to a trestle, run.

    Rules for the beach:  1) Never turn your back on the sea. 2) Don't climb on the logs.

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  • Fri, Mar 20, 2020 - 12:57pm

    RebelYell

    RebelYell

    Status: Member

    Joined: Dec 21 2019

    Posts: 105

    1

    reply to nordicjack

    Nordicjack,

    I have come to the opposite conclusion as you.  Italy is running six tests per positive result.  In comparison South Korea and German are running over twenty tests per positive result and Singapore over 100.  The only rate of testing I have seen worse than Italy's was Wuhan at the height of the crisis there where they were running 1.5 tests per positive result.

    When 1 in 6 tests are coming back positive and you're only testing a tiny fraction (<0.1%) of the population, you are missing the overwhelming majority of cases.

    Italy's data is worthless.

    What is crystal clear to me is that the more testing a country does the lower the CFR.  Singapore is doing the best job of testing as far as I can tell.  They are running 100 tests per positive result and they have 385 cases and zero fatalities.

    Rebel

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  • Fri, Mar 20, 2020 - 1:07pm

    #44

    AKGrannyWGrit

    Status: Silver Member

    Joined: Feb 06 2011

    Posts: 1047

    0

    Thanks Durable

    Fair enough. Good point.  Been here about 10 years and my sense is there is a rabbit in the room, named Harvey.  No one wants to discuss Harvey because his fangs are sharp and he smells bad.  So we discuss the whether, virus, sports and socially acceptable topics in the media.  But some of us think Harvey is either dead or quite dangerous. In any case, I think I will take precautions to protect myself from Harvey.  (See Henry Fonda and his invisible white rabbit named Harvey) a 1060’s movie.

    Will look for answers elsewhere.

     

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  • Fri, Mar 20, 2020 - 1:31pm

    #45
    nordicjack

    nordicjack

    Status: Silver Member

    Joined: Feb 03 2020

    Posts: 728

    2

    why are some people dying and others its super mild

    Normally, for most, viruses have a definable pattern and course of death.   not to say people dont have more severe or additional symptoms.   But even those that do have a great varying degree of illness, usually have a very high fatality rate, like smallpox.   Usually something that acts like the flu, limits itself to a standard course , though some people progress and resolve quicker than others.  The flu itself can cause death because the body's systems or immune systems are compromised, or you just are unlucky enough to get a secondary infection along the way like bacterial pneumonia.   Its something that just doesn't kill you for no reason.   Either you are compromised, or you get a secondary infection like pneumonia.

    This is entirely different.   It definitely able to kill a person with a normal course of lung destruction in healthy individuals.  There are 92 years old that have survived it and 35 year old doctors that have succumb to lung destruction.   The questions is if this can take this action in some individuals , and the cause and course of destruction is the same for old and immune deficient as healthy , what the heck is going on?

    How and why do some people have mild and others or have severe "lung destruction" even if they survive? I really put little difference between severe and death, as the same damage is taking place, just one manages to survive long enough to out-last the virus with supportive care.

    You could theorize that perhaps there is vitamin deficiency, like cellular zinc, or Vitamin D , or B1 that have had some roll in cytokine storm.   One thing, I think the medical profession is getting lost on is the cytokine storm causing deaths in healthy young people.  Though , I think this is possible,  its a very very rare minority of the people dying where in H1N1 this was the primary cause of death in young.   It is not in the coronavirus.  I think we should dismiss this.  It does happen but its the primary route of death here.    So, this brings us back to the question and I have surmised  a couple of theories.

    I am going to discount the elderly and infirm population in this question, as it could just be simple compromised immunity that comes with age.  I would like to use the Italian population for the major question here. Yes they have a more aged population than that of the US.  But I did note healthcare workers "healthy and normally able" getting very sick "severe" illness and death. And I also noted that this blew through an entire large italian family in the USA  wasting half the clan.   So, the question now becomes that in italy they have a very high CFR.  Is this from a genetic issue or are we dealing with an overwhelmed medical or is something were the strain there is virulent?  or are we seeing a vitamin deficiency linked to a diet ?  Although, one would think that the Mediterranean diet is the healthiest in the world it may actually cause an issue with one enzyme or nutrient?  Or are we dealing with genetic deficiency like how people of darker skin produce less vitamin D?  I think these are really good questions.  There is something unusual at play.  And just to say this kills the old , we are missing something.  The same to say its cytokine storm in the young.   Why do some people get mild illness and why some such massive lung damage?  Regardless of age or health status.

    My theory is this has to be acting as dual action virus.  Meaning its a virus that follows one action and then its a virus that follows a second action.  If successful, you are toast.  Sort of like a cellular chess match.   What kind of virus would work this way.  Well HIV for one.  I do not think HIV is a natural virus , I believe it was engineered.  I actually think we are looking at the same thing here.  This thing was engineered to try to take down the defenses and get a foothold.. and then do its damage.

    What is the difference between ethnic cultures and young healthy that determines whether you live or die? First, I do believe there is something in the Italian medical system being overwhelmed that accounts for the high mortality rates.  As well as the aging population.   When we see young healthy doctors dying , can this be , because they are likely to vaccinate a lot?  leaving them less likely able to defend against something novel as the studies suggest?  is this family, just a coincidence that they are italian? and dying and not have anything to do with ethnicity?   I would think people of the same family have the same views about vaccinating.. Perhaps they got the flu vaccine every year - even if was the same as the previous// I know my stepfather was one to the vaccine every year - regardless of what was going around.   My Mother on the other hand never got it nor would she..   So,  I personally would like to see a Vaccine history on the dead.. That is one thing I would be chasing right now.   and with a lot of questions raised here.. Some can be easily answered .. this is the one that troubles me.   And there has to be some logic why one dies here or becomes severe.. and I do no think its just a vitamin deficiency..  It would have to be something really critical and blinding.   I can really theorize a lot of reason why people can have issues , but none that would give a unified 20% of the infected challenged.   when you consider all age groups and health status' that are effected.      The only unified theory , I find is people may have wrecked their immune systems with vaccines , to the point they are sluggish and respond like the elderly.. any thoughts would be appreciated?

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  • Fri, Mar 20, 2020 - 1:43pm

    Jim H

    Status: Bronze Member

    Joined: Jun 08 2009

    Posts: 1206

    0

    Over There...

    AK said,

    Renewing the Patriot Act

    There is of course what I will call the, "X-22 report" perspective on this.  If you are not familiar with Dave and the X-22 report, you might want to listen to some of his stuff on Youtube.  His interpretation of this particular event, for instance, is that the good guys.. the white hats.. are now using things like FISA against the bad guys.  Or, as Dave says, "FISA works both ways".  Indeed, this is pretty logical if you think about it.

    I can't tell you for a fact that it's true.. but Dave's perspective has kept me sane through events like Trump's use of cruise missiles to punish Syria for their use of chlorine gas (a cover for sending cruise missiles in to destroy CIA/Deepstate black sites in Syria).

    See how that works?  Now, It may be that I am being played by the ultimate psyop, meant just for the conspiracy-minded like me.. or it may be the truth.  I think it's the truth, and more than that, I really, really hope and wish and pray that it's the truth.  Stay healthy,  Jim

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  • Fri, Mar 20, 2020 - 1:54pm

    nordicjack

    nordicjack

    Status: Silver Member

    Joined: Feb 03 2020

    Posts: 728

    0

    Rebel you make some good points

    I undestand the Singapore model.  And what you are actually deducing there is they have just 385 cases and exceptional surveillance with a fatality rate of zero , you have reduced it to something rather benign like the flu.

    Well, We know this is not so. There is clear evidence that this disease causes a lot of people to get severe lung involvement with a lot of destruction  And it kills healthy people.  A benign illness cannot work like this.     What is more likely going on singapore is that they are doing incredible surveillance , thereby controlling cases - and keeping an extremely low threshold of medical burden.  And as I have said before, if you have access to great medical care - the fatality rate here could be held to zero.  Which is what I believe is going on singapore.   If you conclude that this is just flu and many many more people have it ( than diagnosed ) - that is why so many are dying, I think you will be sadly disappointed at the end of the game.

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  • Fri, Mar 20, 2020 - 2:14pm

    #48

    Jim H

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    I agree Nordic...

    This is a conundrum and one I would like to see us put our heads together on;

    Some can be easily answered .. this is the one that troubles me.   And there has to be some logic why one dies here or becomes severe.. and I do no think its just a vitamin deficiency..  It would have to be something reallycritical and blinding.

    One thing that keeps nagging at me is sleep status.  Ever since Dr. S mentioned the benefits of adequate sleep on immune status in one of his early MedCram corona virus videos, I have been paying much more attention to it.  I treat my own sleep as being just as important as my supplements, if not more so.

    So, this brings up the other side of the coin.. when we see a middle-aged Doctor losing his battle against Covid in Wuhan, knowing that he was probably horrifically sleep deprived as he worked long hour while the virus made it's way down into his lungs.. are we to be surprised that it became so entrenched that he lost his battle?  From what I read, the 50 yr old lawyer in Westchester County, NY who is just coming out of a medically induced coma, had been working a case when he came down with corona virus.  Each of these is of course anecdotal, and I am not saying it's this simple, but I think this is one of the variables that plays into younger folks getting infected.  To be more specific, my view is that a healthy immune system will beat this back before it gets well seated in the lungs.. and if you are sleep deprived, you may not have a well functioning immune system.

      Indeed, sleep affects various immune parameters, is associated with a reduced infection risk, and can improve infection outcome and vaccination responses.
    The Sleep-Immune Crosstalk in Health and Disease
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6689741/

    So here is my pitch for this factor:  This disease challenges our native immunity in a way that few others do... it starts in the upper respiratory system, and if not stopped there by one's native immune system, it works it's way down to the lungs where is does it's damage.  The time frame over which this unfolds is fairly unprecedented - were it normal flu a person would quickly be bedridden.. but because this monster of a virus can seemingly keep brewing, "asymptomatically", a person can be walking around with it, partying like it's 1999, or just working long hours, as normal.  If this virus is allowed to take ahold of your lungs, then you may end of dead or, as with the lawyer, on a ventilator.  I think sleep status is a factor which overlays age-related immune decline.

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  • Fri, Mar 20, 2020 - 2:20pm

    #49
    miraohio

    miraohio

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    2

    Fake News : Spain Valencia Fallas

    Dear Chris,

    I am afraid that your comments on Spain referring to the "fallas" in Valencia were provided by somebody not living in Spain inventing the story about hundreds of thousands in the street etc.
    WHY? simpel, because these festivities were CANCELLED and did NOT took place in 2020.

    It must be very difficult to check sources. Therefore all the best and keep up the magnificent work.

    Warm regards

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  • Fri, Mar 20, 2020 - 2:38pm

    MQ

    MQ

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    sleep? maybe gut health?

    I think sleep is a promising avenue to follow. I also wonder about gut health. And, this is way out in left field--The Standard American Diet consists mainly of corn, wheat,and soy in various guises. They are all high in arginine and low in lysine. Some people take lysine to prevent cold sores--herpes simplex. Just some random thoughts.

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  • Fri, Mar 20, 2020 - 2:49pm

    ao

    ao

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    AKGranny, on the subject of actors and emotions

    It was Jimmy Stewart, not Henry Fonda, who starred in Harvey.  We have a particular fondness for Jimmy Stewart in this area because he starred in Anatomy of a Murder which was filmed right here in our town.  Although Jimmy played a lovable character in the movie, he was also delusional.

    In the two years prior to you being here, Harvey was discussed at length and relegated to the basement with occasional attempts by him to poke his head up through the trap door.  If you go peek down there (if the basement still exists), you may still find him.

    On the subject of emotion, I think you may confuse the absence of expression of emotion or muted expression of emotion in a particular context, especially more extreme emotion, with the absence of emotion felt internally.  A good poker player or a good soldier or a good Community person like Ision has learned control of their emotions when expressing them would serve no purpose or be a drain of energy or reveal something that shouldn't be revealed or decrease the effectiveness and efficiency of their function in a particular circumstance.  On the other hand, that same person may go home to his or her loved ones and demonstrate the warm emotions, including compassion and empathy, that are appropriate in that context and serve to restore their humanity when they may have had to previously operate in a context where humanity was a scarce commodity.

    Unlike a child that is compelled to wiggle and squirm and can't sit still and be quiet, an adult with a mature nervous system should be able to be still and quiet when needed.  An emotionally mature adult can regulate their emotions such that the emotions become a servant rather than a master.  Our prisons, for example, are filled with the opposite; people with low impulse control and unbridled emotions.  That and, frequently (but not always), low cognitive intelligence brings them there as well.

    There is more on the point of using controlled emotions to one's benefit rather than simply blowing off steam to no one's benefit, including that of the steam blower's.  Anger, for example, is a negative emotion and negative emotions are always based on fear.  Putting oneself into a negative emotional state repeatedly and especially allowing oneself to languish in that state for prolonged periods has proven adverse effects upon one's physical and mental health.  Righteous anger on the other hand, converted into action, like Jesus entering the temple and overturning the tables of the money changers, has its role in a well defined moment in time and space and is not long lasting.  But sanctimonious anger, which is long lasting and expressed over and over again, becomes tiresome to those who have to witness it (especially when it is not accompanied by actions designed to correct the circumstance provoking it) and ultimately reflects poorly on the one expressing it and harms that person as well.

    The high level Russian Systema practitioners can stay calm and centered and in control of their emotions to deal with high stress and high threat situations but once those situations are addressed and pass, they can revert to being warm, friendly, kind, caring, compassionate human beings.  Morihei Ueshiba, the founder of aikido, was another example of that kind of person.  That's a mastery of emotion that we can all aspire to, myself included.  It's interesting that the very best came to that high level of functioning not only through their Systema training but by the practice of their strong Russian Christian orthodox faith, with the two melding to produce exemplary human beings.  And Ueshiba had his revelation through meditation and prayer.

    In a related vein, Bruce Lee put another spin on it from the Eastern perspective of achieving excellence with the appropriate use of emotion.

    You (there's that word again) are a person of passionate emotions and that will most likely not change to any great extent at this stage of your life nor should it since we are each unique as individuals for a purpose and your passionate emotions do serve a role of sorts.  But learning to temper your emotions somewhat would probably be of benefit in achieving emotional balance just like opening up their heart and feeling emotions more would benefit someone who suppresses (rather than regulates) emotions and lives exclusively in their head and not at all in their heart.  But if you expect others to be like you and condemn them or hold them in lower regard because they aren't and they don't match your emotional pitch, you will find, if you're being truly honest in your investigation of the subject, that your premise is a faulty one and it will affect your ability to experience joy that can exist regardless of life circumstances.

     

     

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  • Fri, Mar 20, 2020 - 2:57pm

    nordicjack

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    corn diet

    Yes gut health is a huge part of the immune system - SigA is largest immuno-component in the body.  And it is well found that probiotics and the gut biome is vital to human immunity and health.

    As for corn.   Its a trigger for my coldsores.    most people talk about nuts etc... nuts do not affect me at all.  But a bag of corn chips.  every saturday(football) for a month.. and I am done..

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  • Fri, Mar 20, 2020 - 2:58pm

    F L

    F L

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    Vaccines

    Wonder if the Varicella vaccine is offering some protection to those younger than 25? It didn't become available till 1995 so most people over 25 would not have received it unless they had never had chickenpox as a kid... Also, one of the severe complications from chickenpox can be pneumonia.

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  • Fri, Mar 20, 2020 - 3:05pm

    nordicjack

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    JimH- on with the sleep

    Yes, as with the gut health, sleep is vital to immunity.  In fact, the two work together.   We know lack of sleep will cause in increase in cortisol.. Immuno-enhancing on short-term but immuno-suppressing on medium to long-term.  Specifically, there is an inverse relation of cortisol to sIgA.   So, as cortisol rises, secretory immunoglobulin A decreases.  They have now found receptors for bacteria in sIgA.   My guess is its a sort of lattice for the good-guy bacterias in the gut.   So,  high-stress, high-refined sugar diet, no sleep,   tanks your gut health.. and ultimately your total health.

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  • Fri, Mar 20, 2020 - 3:05pm

    shimz

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    re: why some are dying

    What if it is simpler than that? What if the difference in severity is very much about viral load? That would explain why young doctors and nurses working in the emergency room could get a very bad case of this illness, especially if they were taking care of critically ill covid-19 patients that were coughing violently.

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  • Fri, Mar 20, 2020 - 3:07pm

    #56

    AKGrannyWGrit

    Status: Silver Member

    Joined: Feb 06 2011

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    1

    ao

    Well I see you can’t pass up an opportunity to point out where I am wrong. Jimmy Stewart not Henry Fonda.  Well bully for you.  Two points for you!

    And you have analyzed my posts and character and found them and me lacking.  Well its a dam good thing you don’t know me in person so you could write a book on my imperfections, shortcomings and idiosyncrasies.  Lol, I am a work in progress.  And I don’t give a shit what your analysis is.

    One good thing about me - I have never been depressed, I just get mad.  Yep, my husband adores me and says “I am afraid of no man and only one woman”. Lol again.

    So now that you got that lecture out of your system.  Put a sock in it🤭

    Gotta go Chris is on.

     

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  • Fri, Mar 20, 2020 - 3:16pm

    nordicjack

    nordicjack

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    Shimz

    This was explored by Chris a week or two ago.   Basically, its about the amount of initial innoculant that you receive.  So if you start off with 2 billion vs 30 and go into exponential growth.. Your body, would have less time to try to mount a defense before the virus machinery is in place.   This would very easily explain a high mortality in clinical workers.   But, I would expect to see a consistently higher mortality rate of those workers infected and severe illness.  So its definitely something to investigate as well.  These numbers would exist.

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  • Fri, Mar 20, 2020 - 3:30pm

    #58
    nordicjack

    nordicjack

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    salons and hair places shutdown

    I know this will be hard for a lot of people.  How they heck are you supposed to cut your hair guys?    Anyone doing their own?  I started about 8 years ago.. Haven't looked backed.   Its not hard if you have been watching while you get a haircut.  Of course its easier to have someone else in the family to do it if they know how.  My brother and I tried it on each other when college.. came out fine.   So it was not hard to make the leap for me.   You will need some half-decent barber sheers.

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  • Fri, Mar 20, 2020 - 3:31pm

    Linda T

    Linda T

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    Gut health, corn, wheat, and soy

    MQ,

    Every day I make sure I have yogurt with acidophilus in it, if I eat any bread at all it's gluten-free, and hardly ever ever soy. I look at ingredient lists forwheat and especially soy, and many times have put something back on the shelf if I see any form of soy in it. I know I feel a whole lot better without gluten, soy, and as little corn syrup, etc as possible. (No sodas either.)

    Over twenty years ago I read "Dangerous Grains" after "Paleo Diet". After reading the book about grains, I got so freaked out I was able to go cold turkey, no more cookies, cakes, pies, bread, etc for me, was eating paleo and grass-fed meats as well. I dropped 20 pounds in 3 months and I wasn't that overweight to begin with, and I have been at the same weight I was when I was in high school a few decades ago. I remember something to the effect that gluten was so addictive and known as "comfort food" because it was one ingredient or molecule, something I just don't remember the word right now, away from opiates. What??!!!

    A few months later I happened to read an article in the "Alternative Medicine" magazine (I think they drank the Kool-Aid sometime ago though) about the pros and cons of soy. Lots of anti-nutrients in soy, and I eventually found a book "The Whole Soy Story: the Dark Side of America's Favorite Health Food" by Kaayla Daniel. Geez...

    From Amazon "A groundbreaking expose that tells the truth about soy that scientists know but that the soy industry has tried to suppress. Soy is not a health food, does not prevent disease and has not even been proven safe. Epidemiological, clinical and laboratory studies link soy to malnutrition, digestive problems, thyroid dysfunction, cognitive decline, reproductive disorders, even heart disease and cancer."

    Linda

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  • Fri, Mar 20, 2020 - 3:54pm

    ao

    ao

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    AKGranny

    You have a nice day too.  We're all works in progress.  You conflated personality with character again.  I think your character is probably fine but your personality appears a bit volatile and rather easily angered and offended.  I appreciate your sense of humor though, something which helps in these times.  Your husband adores you but he's afraid of you, lol?  I wouldn't touch that one with a 10 foot pole.

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  • Fri, Mar 20, 2020 - 4:26pm

    Ision

    Ision

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    Virus, Engineered...Deliverate?

    A long time ago, I answered this question...shortly after reviewing the published genome of this pathogen.

    I saw the virus had been modified with specific, long-chain, nucleotide sequence, splices..which simply do not happen naturally.  Not at all.

    So, I knew the virus had been artificially manipulated.  And, from the added sequences, deliberately enhanced.

    Now, why would this be?   It is not irrational to create such enhanced pathogens to use in vaccine, or serum, development.  Too, it is not irrational for biological pathogens to be enhanced for weapon development...or in response to such a weapon...for study.

    I believe this particular pathogen is not the unique product of Chinese efforts, but part of the smuggled pathogens their agents were successful in stealing from the Canadian L4 Lab..where they worked, until thrown out of the country.

    Since the Wuhan Bio Lab has a known history of accidents, and pathogen leaks...at least four events...it is quite possible some lab tech carried the pathogen out of the lab totally accidentally...possibly deciding to go to the nearby marketplace to buy something to cook for dinner..and contaminated others.

    The particular Chinese lab in question, which works with bat vectors and pathogens...is very close to this marketplace, which we were told was where this virus originated.  Despite Case Zero, reported December 1st, having no association with the market at all.

    I believe, due to all observed actions taken, the Chinese knew very quickly what had happened and knew enough about the pathogen to spring to action, well beyond what ignorance demanded.  I knew, they knew, what the pathogen was.  And, they knew...for a fact...the United States was NOT attacking them.

    Remember, our Intelligence Community observed the actions of the Chinese, were also familiar with the pathogen, which was quickly identified....and monitored events closely.

    From this point on...the fog of operations obscure the flow of cause and effect.  But, such incidents offer opportunities to every faction interested.

    If the crap is flying...the least one can do is attempt to advance government goals, while putting on a good show.

    Stolen pathogen.  Inept Chinese Technician.  People die and economies fall.

    That is my opinion.

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  • Fri, Mar 20, 2020 - 4:37pm

    #62
    RebelYell

    RebelYell

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    Reply to nordicjack

    Hmm - I keep trying to submit a comment but it's not taking.

    Short version is

    -  not saying same as seasonal flu

    -  more infectious so more people get it in a shorter period of time

    - people who require critical care need more care for a longer period of time

    -  CFR at least as high as 'flu - and perhaps as much as 5x higher, but not 10+ x higher.

    Combine those things and you can easily get 10x the load on a hospitals which produces exactly what you are seeing in Italy.

    Younger people don't get it much though.  In US 163 died and only 11 deaths younger than 60 (only one under 50) and we know over half of those were already ill - and the others may well have been to - we just don't know.  In Italy average age of deaths is 81, and almost all deaths over 60.

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  • Fri, Mar 20, 2020 - 4:41pm

    Ision

    Ision

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    Let Evolution Have Its Fun...

    Being a functioning sociopath, I figure it is better to not commit assault upon the dumb driven cattle, who may never see the train...even as it passes, even if the wind it makes blows off their hats.

    Let Evolution do its job.  I feel guilty for attempting to deprive it of its fun...by yelling a warning in the first place.

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  • Fri, Mar 20, 2020 - 4:45pm

    solide91

    solide91

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    Nobody wants to TEST ME , I'm recovering at HOME. Sickness CASE STUDY AND NEW DATA !!!

    Hello everyone, I have been trying to share my story with everyone and I'm being censored everywhere, There is a curtual data to share that migh save million people's lives.  I used Oxygenised Diet (NO MEAT) Only drinking eggs and reducing digestions to a minimum TO SAVE ENERGY. Combined with Breathing Exercises to slow hearth rate and control body temperature by bringing oxygen from outside in big amounts.

    PLEASE SHARE THIS IT IS IMPORTANT !!!!!!! THERE IS  SCIENTIFIC AND CLINICAL PROOF EVEN BEFORE ME THAT WE CAN CONTROL THE IMMUNE SYSTEM WITH BREATHING ( WIM HOF METHOD)

    I DID IT BECAUSE NOBODY BELIEVED ME OR WANTED TO HELP ME !!!

     

    Background: I live in Uk, 28 Years OLD Male, Great condition 60kg, Been practicing Breating and Fasting for 1 year and one meal a day diet Eggs,Fish ,Juicing.
    Please watch the Video before reading the progression of sickness to understand that the amount of virus you catch will dictate how severe is going to be.

    WEAR MASKS !!!!

    12 - 13 March
    Symptoms:
    Started feeling cold than usual while working. No Fever

    This is how it Starts !!!

    Day 1 Sat 14 March
    (DO NOT USE ANY DRUGS APART FROM VITAMINS, THE BODY NEEDS THE FEVER TO BATTLE THE VIRUS.

    5 pm Feever started
    10pm Throat felt infected and pulsing ball of heat.(Now looking at the data I know I got infected with large amount of virus)
    10-11 Started on fluids tea, Vitamin C, and warming legs + head . (Got the fever out, I shouldn't had)

    No Temperature.
    Withing 5 Hours I lost my voice.
    Throuat inflammation went into the lungs down .
    Big hit at the chest almost paralysing my lungs for 10 sec in cicles.(What happens is because of high amount of virus contracted, too much is hitting the lungs too early, so the lungs just shut down no oxygen and the hearth is saying we need more blood to pump (I'm assuming people are imploding, especially if they take iboprofen , cofee ....)
    With the Breathing exercise (It is really spiritual) people learn to relax and slow their hearth rate while lacking oxygen but their blood is oxyginised
    No Cough
    Shortness of breath has begun with huge inflamation ches + throat Hot

    Staying up almost into the next day. just sleep 2,3 hours.

    Day 2 15 March Sunday
    Day-Night
    Starting Self Isolation,
    Strenghtening body with Vitamins D,C,Zinc
    Morning Breathing ,5 eggs raw(drink), Orange, avacado or banana + carrot + lemon (Its all about oxygen and saving energy(no digestion) for the battle)
    If males have preserved their semen for 4-7 days prior to illness , that energy will be utilized for the battle as well(this all has huge biblical significance)
    Later in day Maybe tuna but just continue on tea ,water, fruits do not overload the system(By doing this I believe your body is able to absorb oxygen a lot quicker from enviroment prior to meat satanic diet )
    Been Practicing breathing 4 times a day

    Day 3 16 March
    Day-Night
    Productive Cough is trying to get out (Posture Change might be needed)
    Notes: Anything antiflammatory is not helpting, since the body has to naturally overcome and win.
    Ramped up Oranges and liquides at night, Eating after 6 is wrong because digestion is using a lot of energy, at night is where you fight this.
    Night time is the fight, I could not sleep for 2 h and then turned on my belly and started having 1h sleeping intervals with sweating every time.
    Oxygen Improved
    Been Practicing Breathing 4 times a day
    Ended up with 6 Hours of productive sleep. GOOD

    Day 4 17 March
    Day-Night
    Felling better ,.Started taking additional vit D pills.
    Breathing Exercise is crutual by doing it you learn how to direct the immune system at a body point not overreacting and heating the body. Basically you become a futuion reactor , self sustained.

    Day 5 March 18.

    Feeling better but the body has taken a hit and there is pain at the back , front and generally feeling the damage.
    Lungs function perfectly.. because of breathing exercises . There is less oxygen in my body and I still feel lack of energy.
    Started having more food , less vitamins and more SLEEP.
    Breathing exercises CRUTIAL !!!

    Day 6 ARCH 19.

    First Night I had 10 Hours SLEEP, i feel rested but very uncoordinated(Probably because long rest).
    Going through breakfast, I went for walk 30 min. Still need recovery but a lot better. Lung pain and back pain almost dissapeared.

    Day 7 March 20.

    NOTHING TO REPORT , ONLY BODY FEELS A BIT WEAK BUT I WILL WAIT FEW MORE DAYS BEFORE Trusting my immunity and get exposed to society(Obviously wearing PPE against High Anoculumb)

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  • Fri, Mar 20, 2020 - 4:46pm

    #65

    AKGrannyWGrit

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    shimz

    I have wondered that myself.  It is not discussed other than in Chris’s video a couple of days ago.  Makes perfect sense.

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  • Fri, Mar 20, 2020 - 5:00pm

    Jim H

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    Posts: 1206

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    Nordic, MQ, and Linda... another excellent topic; Gut Health

    I have been meaning to post on this one too, especially since one of my truth seeking guru's, Dr. William Davis of "WheatBelly" fame, recently posted on this topic as it relates to Covid.

    As background, I read the Wheatbelly book some years ago and completely quit Wheat, cold turkey.  I have never turned back.. In my early 50's I had increasing joint problems, a malady for which I have a strong family history.  Within a few months of quitting, my joint inflammation problems COMPLETELY resolved - they were gone, and it was very clear why;  I had taken away the agent that was causing my own immune system to attack my joints.

    I used to just laugh at the TV when advertisements for drugs like Humira came on.. the idea of taking a pill that would down-regulate my immune system so that I could keep eating a substance that didn't have a long history in the human diet anyway was, well, absurd to me.  Yeah, I know.. I liked Pizza and Bagels too.  Now though it's not even funny in the face of Covid-19

              HUMIRA is a medicine called a tumor necrosis factor (TNF) blocker. HUMIRA targets and blocks TNF-alpha. ... Because TNF blockers, including HUMIRA, affect the immune system, they can lower the ability to fight infections and may cause other serious side effects.

    In any event, Dr. Davis was not a one-trick truth seeker... aside from taking on the entire food/pharma/FDA complexes, he eventually turned his sights on gut health too.  In this regard he brought to light a series of MIT studies using a particular strain of beneficial bacteria called L-Reuteri.

      https://dspace.mit.edu/handle/1721.1/96512

    These data demonstrate that host immune responses to environmental microbes significantly impact and inhibit cancer progression in distal tissues such as mammary glands, even in genetically susceptible mice. This leads us to conclude that consuming fermentative microbes such as L. reuteri may offer a tractable public health approach to help counteract the accumulated dietary and genetic carcinogenic events integral in the Westernized diet and lifestyle.

    Anyway, for the last year I have been buying the prescribed strain of L-Reuteri and making my own yogurt from it.  Details for all of this can be found in the blogs on the Wheatbelly website.  Here is the latest Blog post concerning gut health, this strain of L-Reuteri, and immunity;

      https://www.wheatbellyblog.com/2020/03/some-unconventional-thoughts-on-coronavirus-covid-19/

    .....Reverse age-related thymic involution
    Lactobacillus reuteri reverses age-related atrophy of the thymus in experimental models. The thymus (sitting just in front of the heart in the anterior mediastinum) is the seat of much of the immune response, especially that involving T-lymphocytes. Starting at age 18, the thymus begins to atrophy such that, by age 70, it is a tiny fragment of its former self, a phenomenon accompanied by increased susceptibility to infections like flu, pneumococcal pneumonia, and sepsis. Even though this phenomenon has not yet been formally corroborated in humans, nearly every other observation made in mice with L. reuteri (or exogenous oxytocin) has held true in humans in formal clinical trials: preservation of bone density, accelerated healing, increased oxytocin, reduction of appetite, weight loss, etc. It is therefore likely that reversal of thymic involution and thereby restoration of youthful immune potential occurs, also. The collection of benefits of consuming the super-duper high amplified bacterial counts of L. reuteri add up to a substantial age-reversing effect, all in the form of a thick, rich, and delicious “yogurt.” 

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  • Fri, Mar 20, 2020 - 5:33pm

    #67
    DD

    DD

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    Published Rate of Deaths Misleading

    We hear that the Death Rate (Current Fatality Rate-CFR) from the Coronavirus outbreak is somewhere in the vicinity of 3% globally, but do many people really think about how these numbers are calculated and how accurate they are? On the Worldometers site they question this -

    “At present, it is tempting to estimate the case fatality rate by dividing the number of known deaths by the number of confirmed cases. The resulting number, however, does not represent the true case fatality rate and might be off by orders of magnitude [...]”

    This is exactly how the WHO calculate the Current Fatality Rate.

    Alternative calculation methods suggested at Worldometers come up with rates as high as 29% - quite alarming, and also probably not very accurate.

    Also, in this Reuters article Why COVID-19 'death rates' are not what they seem

     

    “In an unfolding epidemic, it can be misleading to look at the naïve estimate of deaths so far divided by cases so far,” said Christl Donnelly, a disease specialist at Oxford University and Imperial College London. “This is due to the delay from the time it takes for individuals to progress from being diagnosed as cases to dying.”

    “With COVID-19 - the infection caused by the new coronavirus - the time between onset of disease and death is fairly significant, at around two to three weeks or more. So the sum involved would need to compare the number of deaths at a given point with the actual case numbers from some weeks beforehand.”

    So, if we do the math, firstly, as the WHO does -

    Current Deaths /Current Cases (March 20) : 9,840 / 234,073 = CFR 4.2%

    But, if we go back to 14 days earlier, we get -

    Current Deaths /Current Cases (March 6) : 9,840 / 98,192 = CFR 10.0%

    And again, with figures from three weeks earlier -

    Current Deaths/ Current Cases (Feb 28) : 9,840 / 83,652 = CFR 11.8%

    So, it is more probable that the real CFR rates are up to 3 times higher than generally accepted. These are just the averages of course, and of even more concern is the fact that the elderly (I am early 70’s) have a 3 or 4 times higher chance of dying than the average.

    Whatever the real rates are, I’m sure we won’t be able to work that out until the pandemic is finally over, but in the meantime I am very sceptical of the figures that are generally published.

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  • Fri, Mar 20, 2020 - 5:39pm

    nordicjack

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    Rebel , I think you are losing sight of the real problem

    I see what you are saying, though , the few that are young, we cannot explain - that is troubling.   What you are really missing, is , not deaths , but serious illness.   I know of way more than 11 cases involving "young and healthy"  needed vents and ICU treatment.   This group , crowd, is likely still to pull through..  So, I am really concerned with this group when there will not be enough vents, or unable to get supportive treatment.. and those that pull through - are young enough.. that it will leave them too severely impaired or disabled to work.

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  • Fri, Mar 20, 2020 - 6:36pm

    #69
    LabCat

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    4

    Time for a new thread?

    I think it's time for a new thread. This one is beginning to smell like burned hair.

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  • Fri, Mar 20, 2020 - 6:55pm

    #70

    sofistek

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    Zero CFR in some countries

    Looking at the table of cases, there are many countries that have hundreds of reported cases but no reported deaths and, often, very few serious cases. This seems improbable. Does anyone have information on this?

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  • Fri, Mar 20, 2020 - 7:26pm

    RebelYell

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    reply to nordicjack

    I see what you are saying too - and I think it would be reasonable to look at data for people requiring critical care too with the proviso that we apply the same math to allow for undertesting of mild and asymtpomatic cases.

    Here's the best data I've been able to find, which is from the US where we know we have a severe under-testing problem:

    https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/69/wr/mm6912e2.htm?s_cid=mm6912e2_w#T1_down

    The data is as follows

    Age                  ICU (as % of test )        Adjusted for undertesting (my estimate)

    20-44              2%-4.2%                            0.1% - 0.7%

    45-54              5.4%-10.4%                       0.3%-1.7%

    55-64             4.7%-11.2%                         0.2%-1.9%

    Again my guess is that the actual numbers will fall towards the lower end of this range.  So yes the numbers are higher than the fatality rates - but they are still potentially pretty low.  I'd really like to see this data for countries we know are testing more thoroughly though - Singapore, Taiwan, South Korea, Germany etc.

     

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  • Fri, Mar 20, 2020 - 7:26pm

    saxplayer00o1

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    Wim Hof...solide91

    Listen at the 2 minute mark:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TM6WKeZ43s4

    I suggested awhile back that we have an interview with this guy. It would be amazing if we could control our immune systems like this. We can't say "Breathe mother%#$%#$" like he does when we post on Peak Prosperity though. Check this out: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4034215/

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  • Fri, Mar 20, 2020 - 7:35pm

    RebelYell

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    reply to sofistek

    The countries which are doing more testing see a much lower CFR because (a) they are finding more of the mild cases, and (b) they are containing the virus much better through contact tracing and isolation etc. so they are able to stay on top of the problem.

    The countries which don't test all that much end up with raging epidemics which in turn means that they get swamped and can't spend any time trying to find mild cases so they end up mostly testing just the folks that show up in hospital seriously ill.  Surprise, surprise - a very much greater proportion of folks who are selected by the very fact that they are ill enough to go to hospital in the first place end up dying.

    When the swine 'flu was getting started it also exhibited very high CFRs (as much as 500x greater than the actual fatality rate) because the people who ended up dying were tested at disporportionate rates to those who scarcely became ill at all.

    Even just the regular seasonal 'flu has a CFR of 10% using the method being used to claim CFRs of 2 or 3 % for COVID-19.  About 220,000 people get positive test results for regular influenza each year and 10% of them go on to die.

    These numbers are horseshit if you'll excuse my French.

    That doesn't mean that this virus isn't enough of a problem to swamp hospital departments and kill a significant number of people.  And it seems to be very infectious so a lot of people could end up getting it which makes it dangerous in and of itself.  But it's not killing 3% of people or even 1%.  I'd be amazed if it's even killing 0.5% of people.

    And the avergae age of people who are dying is over 80, with 2/3 of them already being seriously ill already.

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  • Fri, Mar 20, 2020 - 8:21pm

    ao

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    saxplayer, here's further confirmation of the benefits of cold water exposure

    From the Systema HQ Toronto of Vladimir Vasiliev:

    Here is an excerpt from Vladimir Vasiliev’s Russian System Guidebook, the chapter “Introduction to the Russian Health System”:

    Strengthening the Body with Water
    This involves pouring a bucket of cold water over your body twice a day. While I don't require this of my students, I will stress it to those who are open-minded to it. As a result, many have caught on to its benefits.…It's a simple procedure. You just fill up a large bucket with icy cold water, as cold as you can get it from the tap and pour it over yourself. Ideally, this should be done every day. You can start pouring from the chest and onto the face and top of the head.

    This procedure both stimulates and strengthens the body's central nervous system and overall immune system. Here's how it works: The body reacts to the cold water by very rapidly increasing its core body temperature. It's much as if you were running a fever except that the rise in temperature is immediate and only lasts less than a second.

    It's almost like having a mini-explosion take place inside of you. Your body temperature rises to nearly 42.2 degrees Celsius (that's nearly 108 degrees Fahrenheit). It feels like a pleasant warmth and surge of energy inside right after the dowsing. Meanwhile, this explosion of warmth will kill off most bacteria and viruses. Indeed, 40 degrees Celsius is deadly for most viruses and bacteria and this procedure raises body temperature the extra 2 degrees Celsius (and nearly 4 Fahrenheit) above that!

    …Think of it this way. Cold is the most powerful stimulant in our metabolism. Nothing makes the body work faster than cold. It is the best way to mobilize our body's reserves to pull together and fight weakness. Pouring cold water over your head and body causes your central nervous system to call upon each part of your organism to work better and direct more energy to weaker areas.

    This procedure has become very popular with my students. They find that it not only aids overall health but also leads to a better, more energetic performance in the gym.”

    The Systema practitioners also practice specialized breathing techniques similar to the Tummo techniques used by Wim Hof and also to Taoist breathing techniques.

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  • Fri, Mar 20, 2020 - 8:44pm

    #75

    Jim H

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    regarding hydroxychloroquine toxicity

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ViAQU1260NQ

    sounds like the main concern is very long term usage....

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  • Fri, Mar 20, 2020 - 8:46pm

    #76
    nordicjack

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    Rebel thanks for the serious numbers in this age group

    Yes its obvious this is a much bigger concern the older you get.  But, those numbers are still very troubling.   And it has such a strict correlation to an age curve.   Usually, with the flu - you are old and infirm or not..   This takes more of everyone is aged and infirm, but how much.

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  • Fri, Mar 20, 2020 - 9:00pm

    nordicjack

    nordicjack

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    Sax, we can control it

    Sax, we can control our immune system.  Meditation has shown to have influence over this.  Just do people take the time and energy to focus like this?   But its a thought.  definitely something to throw into the mix.

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  • Fri, Mar 20, 2020 - 10:34pm

    #78
    nigel

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    azithromycin

    Nope, the article is still bad, recommending antibiotics like azithromycin for corona is a bad call, at least until there are published papers and trials on the subject to make sure. It would be easy to run a clinical trial right now on it, and until a paper comes out a website shouldn't be handing out medical advice. COPD isn't covid-19.

     

    Possibly by inducing RIG-I like helicases clinically relevant concentrations of azithromycin concentration-dependently increased expression of type I and III interferons in COPD but not healthy bronchial epithelial cells. The stimulant effects of azithromycin were also transiently pronounced in un-infected COPD epithelium. Our data indicate that azithromycin-exposed COPD epithelium was primed to over-express the helicases and interferons when infected by rhinovirus. Azithromycin also reduced viral load. We suggest that azithromycin-induced epithelial interferon expression may contribute to the prophylactic effect of this drug in reducing exacerbations of COPD.

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  • Fri, Mar 20, 2020 - 10:44pm

    MarkM

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    Anti-viral in lung epithelia?

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4923851/#!po=0.641026

     

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  • Sat, Mar 21, 2020 - 12:29am

    #80
    Avatar

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    Chloroquine in Viral fever

    Malaria had been eradicated from India for a decade and staged a comeback during year 1971. Since 1971, several avtars of fever afflicted India. Viral fever, Dengue fever, Chikungunya - all began as killers. With time we learnt how to coexist with those diseases. Corona Virus showed up during recent months. That engulfed the entire World. The world would soon learn how to coexist with Corona Virus.
    Since year 1971, Chloroquine has been my default drug in fever cases. Viral fever, Dengue fever, Chikungunya - all political entities responded to Chloroquine. By simple mathemathics, there can be two possibilities :-
    1. New avtars of fever during consecutive years were new variants of malaria.
    2. Chloroquine known as antimalarial, may be nonspecific fever drug, effective also against Viral fever, Dengue fever, Chikungunya, and now Corona Virus.
    Chloroquine is a harmless drug with single dose required in endemic population and 5 tablet (double strength) course required elsewhere.
    Immunity boosters in routine and Chloroquine at first fever sign may be a magic mantra to make the World Corona free. Atovaquone-proguanil should also be tried in place of Chloroquine.
    Dr K Chaudhry http://immunity.indianmedical.net
    FIRST Author of Jaypee Brothers

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  • Sat, Mar 21, 2020 - 3:30am

    RALSML

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    RALSML said:

    @Chris, as miraohio says, my friend in Spain commented re Charles N's comments: "so full of bull it is laughable! We were informed in February of the death in Malaga. Las Fallas in Valencia was cancelled weeks ago and all religious processions (Easter and others) have been cancelled. As for papers being censored I have never heard of such rot! With friends in publishing here I can tell you that is totally false. Sometimes people love to make conspiracies out of everything and make themselves an authority. I actually laughed out loud at some of his wild inaccuracies! Take it with a pinch of salt! The equivalent to the ABC here and a couple of commercial channels have devoted special extended programmes to the virus.... interviewing specialists and experts from around the world. Open and transparent hardly the censored reporting the video refers to?!"

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  • Sat, Mar 21, 2020 - 5:51am

    #82
    Sebastian8

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    Chris on Fox News this moring

    Woke up this morning to see Chris on Fox news.

    I did not see the whole segment, hope to see it posted here.

    I am encouraged to see that Chris is in the mainstream media.

    People are listening and are awake.

    Chris and Adam--thank you for all of your efforts and sacrifices over the years.

     

     

     

     

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  • Sat, Mar 21, 2020 - 5:52am

    #83
    AKTED

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    Chloroquine

    Chris it would be very helpful to have the relevant links included at the bottom of each video. Please try to include them. Chloroquine sounds like it might be a good tool in our arsenal against Covid-19. But what is the appropriate dose? How often do you take it? Where do you get it? Thanks in advance for your help.

     

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  • Sat, Mar 21, 2020 - 6:24am

    #84
    karen is a farmer

    karen is a farmer

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    Viral load

    Chris included a video from a doctor researching viral loads & level of infection in one of his videos, it made a lot of sense.

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  • Sat, Mar 21, 2020 - 6:44am

    #85
    Jo Taylor

    Jo Taylor

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    Cell phone disconnections in China

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  • Sat, Mar 21, 2020 - 8:30am

    #86
    nordicjack

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    just got off phone with congressman - edited - more serious info

    I know most states have spoken about shortages of tests and only those acutely ill will be tested.    – I have confirmed this is the case – additionally I have confirmed that the situations is multiple fold worse than what is actually reported in the numbers.   It is consistent with reports from some healthcare workers – that are reporting dozens in not hundreds of cases per hospital – with all vents – and beds at capacity.   We are already at overwhelmed capacity.   this does not reflect the reported US numbers – why should we trust anyone else’s numbers

    Just got an update,  there will be no more testing - just assume you have it if you are sick.    Hospitals are at capacity.   Not reporting because it would just cause panic.

     

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  • Sat, Mar 21, 2020 - 8:37am

    #87
    westcoastjan

    westcoastjan

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    Treatment profiteers & scumbags

    The Kushner Family Could Be Getting Very Rich Thanks to the Coronavirus

     

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  • Sat, Mar 21, 2020 - 8:55am

    RebelYell

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    reply to nordicjack

    I think you should consider the opposite.  They're not going to continue testing because it would reveal that the hysteria is utter nonsense.

    Only testing acute cases will allow them to continue to pretend that the CFR is really high, and that only a tiny percentage of folks have yet been infected and that there is a huge disaster waiting to happen when everyone else gets sick.

    In reality testing huge numbers of people would reveal the enormous number of people who are infected without serious consequences and allow us to see that the danger is far smaller than is currently being foghorned all over the media - even the alt media.

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  • Sat, Mar 21, 2020 - 9:07am

    MQ

    MQ

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    Gut health, corn, wheat, and soy, oh,my...

    My younger daughter has celiac disease, my older daughter is very gluten sensitive--me? I battled IBS for years until my baby daughter was diagnosed and 'made me' give up gluten. Hard to do, I was an excellent bread maker. And I was definitely addicted.

    Isn't it funny that leaky gut was laughed at for years, but gut permeability can now be a thing?   When this pandemic is over, it would be interesting to find out how many of the serious and critical patients also had an autoimmune disorder.

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  • Sat, Mar 21, 2020 - 9:08am

    RebelYell

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    other reply to nordicjack

    When you say "Those numbers are still very troubling. " - I'm not sure they are.

    Let's say there are 200 million people under 46 in the US, and 100 million are going to get coronavirus.  If the testing is undercounting by a factor of 20 (and it may very well be more than that - swine flu overcounted by a factor of as much as 500 at this point in that outbreak - ) then the actual ICU admission  rate is 0.1% so we would need 100,000 ICU beds total for patients in this age range over the entire outbreak.  We could probably handle all of them in the same week!  It's also likely true that undercounting is higher in this age group than older age groups as they even less likely to have any symptoms at all so I probably should have applied a higher multiplier the base confirmed test result to ICU admission ratio.  It's entirely possible we will get through the whole outbreak with 50,000 or fewer people under 45 admitted to the ICU.  Numbers appear to be a little bit higher for people between 50 and 60 - this seems to be the age group that is potentially affected at a more serious rate than regular seasonal 'flu - but even there the data is not clear.

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  • Sat, Mar 21, 2020 - 9:10am

    gyurash

    gyurash

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    Fried foods and sugar

    I have also lost weight on a Paleo diet. Note that Paleo also nearly eliminates sugar from food choices. It is interesting that fried foods have become popular world wide. According to webmd,

    https://www.webmd.com/diet/news/20100119/corn-oil-used-most-often-french-fries

    corn oil is the most popular fryer oil. I have asked around my local restaurants and found that soy shortening is used most often by locally owned shops, likely because it is cheaper. The ‘shortening’ monicker, meaning it’s solid at room temperature, is very high in partially saturated fat, and is rarely found in natural foods. If the self isolation mandates lasts for several months and more people go back to cooking at home, I wonder if it might manifest unintended health benefits?

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  • Sat, Mar 21, 2020 - 9:13am

    nordicjack

    nordicjack

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    Rebel - I think you are wrong

    I always said if they are going to test - it should be random community level testing.. if you are short on tests - not the sick people.   You know the people who are dying and seeking treatment and serious ill.  Why test them?  So , yes what you say makes sense - and there is a way to account for that with the method of what i would be testing as described.

    Never the less , I think you will be sorely disappointed if you continue to take this as trivial as the flu.  Its a lot better to take this as serious . and have it found to not be later.    never the less , our hospitals are capacity.    That does not happen with the flu.  Not that we could burden a second flu either.   But if your healthcare workers are sick, and over-worked. and infection is running rampant,  infirm vulnerable people in the hospital will fall like flies..  Its a lose , lose..   You cant make this nothing..  nor should you.

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  • Sat, Mar 21, 2020 - 9:17am

    #93
    nordicjack

    nordicjack

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    rebel - the numbers have to be taken with a boulder of salt

    I try not to put too much into the numbers as accurate for anything.  However, we can try to compare them among the data given - basically compare one-set to another set.  But we can't assume they are correct.. but its more likely if one set is off , the other is off -and hopefully by the same magnitude.. so its sort of relative evaluation of the numbers not an absolute

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  • Sat, Mar 21, 2020 - 9:42am

    RebelYell

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    reply to nordicjack

    I'm not saying this is the same as normal flu, although I'm not ruling it out either.

    What I am saying is that it may well be more serious than normal 'flu.  BUT it is most definitely not a biblical plague, nor is it even the Spanish 'flu.  It's not going to kill tens of millions worldwide.

    I don't disagree that taking some measures might be sensible - but the measures now being implemented have the potential to devastate our economy.  Ask an elderly person if they'd rather take a probably smallish risk with the flu, or avoid that risk but find their pension has vanished? My mother is over eighty.  She is perfectly content to die.  She doesn't want to die of course, but she is at peace with the idea.  She'd much rather die than be left penniless and be a burden on her children.

    What about all the people who own or work in small businesses who will not have a livelihood in two or three weeks.  The measures we are taking out of irrational fear are going to ruin huge numbers of people.  Some forecasts are now calling for a 12% fall in global GDP.  If this occurs, it will cause an order of magnitude more fatalities and suffering than the virus would if we did nothing at all (and I'm not suggesting we do nothing).

    I'm also saying that I becoming increasingly suspicious that the fear is being deliberately overblown and the people doing it do not have our best interest at heart.

    We should not be alarmed, and we should take sensible measures.  But ceasing all economic activity is dangerous folly.

    Rebel

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  • Sat, Mar 21, 2020 - 9:44am

    NorthElkhound

    NorthElkhound

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    SKIP POLITICS, West Coast Jan

    So the Kushners own stock in health care? So do a million other Americans. Let's skip the politics. That time is OVER!

    Move on to doing something useful for self or others. Add the positive here or information pertinent to the virus, please. I am concerned about reports of the many very sick UPS, Fed Ex workers delivering packages to us home bound folks.

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  • Sat, Mar 21, 2020 - 9:47am

    Linda T

    Linda T

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    Posts: 132

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    Re: soy, and testing

    In my perusings of ingredients list in order to avoid soy, I have noticed it is in an insane high amount of foods nowadays and in foods I would never have expected to be present in in the first place. The obsession for soy helps to cause so much global deforestation, especially in Brazil. In order to plant more and more soy crops, they burn or flatten the trees. Which contributes to pollution, loss of species and diversity,  and climate change since the trees are no longer carbon sinks and all that carbon gets released into the atmosphere... Collectively we have lost our ability to work with nature rather than destroy it (after all we are part of it no matter how much we try to avoid that...), practice critical thinking, especially long-term thinking and the Precautionary Principle.

    As far as testing, and the lack of tests available we don't know, how many people really are infected. But, since the healthcare systems are already overwhelmed and to the degree that they are (lack of beds, ICU, respirators, gloves, masks, the amount of time spent on a respirator, etc..), with even health care workers getting infected and dying, I wouldn't think this is the "normal yearly" flu. So, we don't know just how bad it is, or not, and probably won't know for awhile, but how about we practice some Precautionary Principle rather than trying to minimize and disregard the possible  severity of this virus?

    Linda

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  • Sat, Mar 21, 2020 - 10:29am

    TurquoiseRose

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    Drugs for Covid-19 Treatment, Resource

    Overview of planned or ongoing studies of drugs for the treatment of COVID-19 
      COVID-19 Drug Therapy – Potential Options  
     
    And this study:

    Medicines used in respiratory diseases only seen in children

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  • Sat, Mar 21, 2020 - 10:36am

    nordicjack

    nordicjack

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    rebel - if it were me alone

    I am only 54 and not afraid to die.  I would be taking this in stride as is my 80 year old mother.. She has raised children and raised grandchildren.. all is good for her.   she can go in peice. I cannot , I have children, very young children.      If i did not have children , I would not care, I d say open it all up , let the chips fall where they may for 50 plus.      But please look at this story of Tia, with husband, children and she is young.. and she almost died ,  and did not fit the testing criteria..  and would not be counted..

    https://www.businessinsider.com/coronavirus-patients-test-positive-covid-quarantine-2020-3

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  • Sat, Mar 21, 2020 - 10:52am

    #99
    Alexis

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    MTHFR mutation?

    Just scanning the discussion here re susceptibility... My 25% Sicilian Italian husband has MTHFR mutation, our children have symptoms of the same mutation. I wonder if there is a genetic component to the Italian CFR and genetics. Incidentally, since my husband has been home 3 weeks now he is now on my kids' diet which is essentially paleo minus corn, dairy (no grains, dairy, soy, corn or gluten no fortified foods d/t MTHFR). He has lost 5lbs and his "pain" which was stated as inflammation type pain have disappeared. Maybe genetics +diet inflammation + the right vitamins is the thing. I have also started hubs on high dose d3, C and he is eating more nutritious stuff in general. He is not getting more sleep. Just thought I would add this little case study.

    May not be relevant at all but MTHFR mutation has become much more prevalent, I found this out after my twins and later son, all had lip ties and tongue ties, the most severe too. Very complex but may have something to do with the over inflammatory response or rather the lack of correct inflammation response some people seem to have. Interested to look into MTHFR mutation and cytokine expression or changes.

     

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  • Sat, Mar 21, 2020 - 10:52am

    nordicjack

    nordicjack

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    Rebel please bare in mind only one simple thing

    I understand that this is hard on the economy. And its easier to wonder what to do for the economy.  But what you are talking about is basically infecting everyone in a short amount of time.  This has two consequences.  First this is not a 3 day flu, people are sick with this 4- 6 weeks before they start to recover.  Also,  even if everything was running you would have 60% out sick.   And the worst part is things would still suffer economically.  Maybe not as bad as now..  But the hospitals would be so over-filled.. who would you turn away?  how do you make the decisions who gets the bed? highest bidder?  really, what is going to happen?  drs and other walk off the job?   I think you are missing the picture like you wont hammer the health system to heck.   I think you are just looking at deaths.. from this .. and not other causes  and not how many would die needlessly if they did not have supportive care..  its a lot more than 80 plus people. and the numbers do not reflect the stories we are hearing like the one i posted.   or the italian family that was left with half the clan dead.. and all young except the matriarch.  Its not right.   I do not see stories of just old people dying or getting sick.. I remember one of the first NY cases that attorney .. barely 50. with highschool and college children.. at the prime of his life.. on a vent in the ICU// these are not the wheelchair feeble people you are imagining dying.   or certainly needing supportive care.. and they have much greater chance of recovering than old with that intensive care.. so if you do not see the numbers for them dying.. i wish the would seperate out a more meaningful number - age rates of serious cases.. not death.    Because once the system is over-loaded.. this people will parish.. not just elderly.. And what about all those people in the hospital for surgery, immune conditions, cancer.. heart disease. all in weak states.. when an mass infection is circulating in the hospital.. how many of those will die?    this had much further consequences.  I know if you are healthy and young, and ill informed , you are like, just open the flood gates.. i am good.   its just a mild cough, i ll be fine.     screw everyone else.  we dont need old - they just drain our society//      -------- Maybe you can live with this ethically.. But most people cannot.  And I think they(govt) realize the economy will suffer whether we open the flood gates or not.   The truth is you can get more social unrest - when the guy goes to the hospital and child is turned away,  you will have john Q times 10000000.

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  • Sat, Mar 21, 2020 - 11:01am

    nordicjack

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    regarding Mthfr polymorphism

    I would not worry about this.  I have this too, as does 45% of the poplulation.    This has no effect on health,  except in the presence of folic acid.. but folic acid does not exist in nature.  So it is in effect a toxin .. that half the population can turn into a nutrient.     Does this effect your health in the US where we have folic acid in everything.  even things that dont need it.?  sure,  but in other countries , they dont add as much , and in th EU its now banned.   I do not think its going to effect your immunity .. but perhaps if you have lived very unhealthy life-style then the cellular house-keeping ( methylation ) has fallen behind.

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  • Sat, Mar 21, 2020 - 11:06am

    RebelYell

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    reply to nordicjack

    Nordic,

    I think you are being a little unfair to me.  I don't think we should  do nothing at all.  I am also well aware of the suffering that is going to be caused and I wish it were not.

    However I am saying that there will be suffering no matter what we do, and we should try and choose the path that results in the least suffering.  The "economy" is not an evil thing for greedy people, although our society is corrupt and evil people exploit our economy.  The economy is how we all interact to live our lives.  If we close businesses down in the way we are currently doing, people will die.  Not thousands of people, nor tens of thousands of people.  Millions of people will die as a result of what is being done to the global economy.  Even the simplest first order effects like drugs not being available will have a huge impact.  Global spending on healthcare, in real terms, will have to fall for years.  Poorer countries will be unable to supply food, or sanitation, or other basic necessities to the people.

    Millions more will have their livelihoods destroyed, their hopes, their dreams ruined.  It is not a question of a few dollars in the bank accounts of rich people.  Pension funds will fail.  People will lose their homes, farmers will lose their farms, people running bouncy castles for childrens' parties will lose the bouncy castles.  Governments will fall.  Rebellions may occur.  Looting, crime.  We are potentially talking about an economic disaster on a scale we have not seen in our lifetimes.

    The path we are choosing has its own cost, and in my view it is very likely to be higher than the cost of the virus.

    Rebel

    PS  It's also worth noticing that already the greedy banks have exploited the fear to print themselves close to $2 trillion.  And they've hardly got started yet.

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  • Sat, Mar 21, 2020 - 11:19am

    RebelYell

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    nordicjack:

    I think this is part of the propaganda we are being subjected to.

    The press is desperate to make sure that we are afraid, so there is a headline for any victim is under 55.  I saw a headline from Italy the other day.  "627 new deaths including a 48 year old and a 54 year old" - or something like that.  Why didn't the headline say "627 new deaths, 625 were over 60 and 607 were over seventy, 500 were already seriously ill"?

    You've got to look at the numbers - not the headlines.  And the numbers from the large scale studies tell the tale pretty clearly.  Young people are NOT getting sick in significant numbers.  People between 50 and 60 appear to be at some small, but significant, risk although that may well be only if they are already ill.  People over 70 are clearly at a larger risk - but they are at a larger risk of dying from anything else as well.

     

    And I'm not saying we should do nothing either.  I think there are plenty of things we should be doing - but closing down all restaurants for example, or completely closing down schools and workplaces, are NOT amongst them.

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  • Sat, Mar 21, 2020 - 11:22am

    nordicjack

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    Rebel , There is no good solution

    I am sure the govt, as reckless as it can be sometimes, has a think-tank working all the scenarios.   We are going to have a mess one way or the other - it should be a wake up call of how ill-prepared we really are/were.    The problem is we have a bubble type financial system that is very fragile,  our healthcare system is fragile,  and social issues are abound.

    I am not sure this is such a bad thing for the economy.   We have been moving the wrong direction , at light-speed, for about 20 years.  The only way things will correct is if we have a reset.  Might as well be now , rather than later.

     

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  • Sat, Mar 21, 2020 - 11:23am

    westcoastjan

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    The point is not politics, it is LACK OF INTEGRITY

    Hello NorthElkhound:

    Did you even read the article I linked? It seems not... Here is a relevant quote (bolded parts my emphasis):

    Founded in 2012, Oscar Health has been described as the Uber of healthcare, and like Uber, it has been criticized for unethical business practices. In 2018, for instance, it was condemned for selling an Obamacare insurance package with a massive $15,800 deductible. Also like Uber, it has received enormous cash injections from notable investors, including in this case Alphabet (the parent company of Google) and billionaire tech tycoon Peter Thiel. Jared also had a large share in the company. And like Uber, it continues to lose money, posting a $57 million loss in 2018 and a $110 million in 2019.

    Even superficially tested, the product Oscar has come up with has serious flaws; Mother Jones noted that the locator incorrectly advised a Maryland resident that the nearest coronavirus test facility was in Kansas, over 1,000 miles away.

    I could not care less about the political angle - as I have stated before, it does not matter who is in power, they are all the same - CORRUPT!

    The core issue is, once again, lack of integrity, and how the elites just keep on scheming to enrich themselves at our expense. Peter Thiel is implicated as a major player in the Epstein saga. The Mint Press series on that topic illustrated well the deep levels of corruption, lying and cheating going on all across the corridors of power - things everyone should be deeply concerned about.

    This is so not about politics.  You should be paying attention to this stuff - unless of course you are okay with being given incorrect or false information, doubtful testing, and exorbitantly priced treatments and medications. You can be certain the elites are in on this crisis, planning & scheming to exploit it every which way they can to make money at our expense.

    These things exist because the sheeple do not  pay attention, do not ask questions, and do not hold people, politicians or organizations accountable. The elites count on us not paying attention to their unethical practices and ill-gotten gains, and not doing anything about it even when we are aware of it. They count on us accepting and condoning their lack of integrity.

    Sure there are immediate problems like the possibility of the FedEx delivery person being infected. That is something you can actively manage and control through self-protection measures. But your issues are merely a small symptom of the much, much larger problem of why we are in this crisis. It did not happen in a vacuum. It happened because people did not pay attention, and did not want to discuss serious, important matters that affect all of our lives. If that sits well with you then so be it. It does not sit well with me.

    You are new here. I do contribute a lot of positive things on this site - I have been doing so for many years if you care to check, and I have earned a lot of respect along the way. I will continue to contribute articles and post comments as I see fit so as to stimulate discussion and help connect the dots of understanding this complex world that we live in. We absolutely have big short term problems to deal with, but we also need to have strategic awareness and planning so that we can rebuild a better world after this thing plays out, however long that might take. You can't make solid strategic plans without a solid understanding of the problems need to be eradicated.

    Take care and stay well,

    Jan

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  • Sat, Mar 21, 2020 - 11:23am

    Jim H

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    When I hear about young people getting hospitalized with Covid-19, I think of this;

    Vaping, or a history of vaping, may be a serious, "co-morbidity".  I don't know too many 50 year olds who vape....

    https://www.webmd.com/lung/features/vaping-illness-symptoms#1

    Who’s Most at Risk

    Anyone who’s vaped in the last 90 days is at risk for EVALI. You don’t have to be older or already sick.

    “Many of these patients were normal, healthy people,” Tsai says.

    The average age of people with EVALI is 24, and almost 4 out of 5 are younger than 35. Rachel Boykan, MD, a clinical associate professor of pediatrics at the Renaissance School of Medicine at Stony Brook University, says that might be because vaping products are most popular with younger people.

    Edit:  Just saw this

    https://nypost.com/2020/03/21/vaping-may-be-cause-of-coronavirus-cases-in-young-americans-experts-say/

    US doctors are reportedly eyeing vaping as a possible factor in the alarming number of hospitalizations among young adults diagnosed with COVID-19.

    Medical experts began floating the theory last week after the US Centers for Disease Control reported that up to 20% of people hospitalized with the virus were between ages 20 and 44.

    “When someone’s lungs are exposed to flu or other infections the adverse effects of smoking or vaping are much more serious than among people who do not smoke or vape,” Stanton Glantz, a professor and director of the Center for Tobacco Research Control & Education at University of California San Francisco, wrote in a blog post.

    Glantz said vaping can hinder the nasal cavity’s ability to ward off disease by damaging the microscopic hairs, or cilia, in the upper airway, he told CNN. 

    “Some of my [colleagues] have noted people under 30 ending up in hospitals and a couple were vapors,” Glantz said, noting a link has not been confirmed.

    In China, smokers were 14 times more likely to develop severe cases of COVID-19 than those who did not smoke, according to a February study published in the Chinese Medical Journal.

    Did you see that last line?  First time I have seen that stat from China... 14X... Holy S*^t.

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  • Sat, Mar 21, 2020 - 11:29am

    TurquoiseRose

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    Hydrochlorquine may work by improving airflow and lowering IgE

    More on how Hydroxyxhloroquine works.

    Hydroxychloroquine inhalation - APT Pharmaceuticals/Aradigm

     

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  • Sat, Mar 21, 2020 - 11:42am

    centroid

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    centroid said:

    WATCH THIS CHRIS OR ADAM!. i'm an Australian and this is "a national press club" interview with "experts" in epidemiology etc and in particular at around the 36 minute mark where 2-3 of these experts say masks don't matter:

    https://iview.abc.net.au/show/national-press-club-address

    all i can say is Wow!. thanks for your material which overwhelming supports mask usage

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  • Sat, Mar 21, 2020 - 11:56am

    nordicjack

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    rebel, here is the stuff , i was talking about

    I know its headline stuff again.  But doesnt make it not important.    Again, I said, I was interested in serious case count not so much death count - this article addresses that specifically.  And it talks about what i have been trying to say.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/18/health/coronavirus-young-people.html

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  • Sat, Mar 21, 2020 - 12:37pm

    RebelYell

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    reply to nordicjack

    Two points:

    1.  The economy is not being "reset" in a good way.  It's being destroyed.  Instead of being decentralized - it is all the small businesses which are going under.  Instead of eliminating the debt we are doubling down and bailing out all the politically-connected, wealthy, powerful, and corrupt with more debt payable by the middle class.  Big war, big pharma, big-parasite-at-the-expense-of-the-rest-of-you - that's what's being preserved.  Little-guy-who-adds-value-to-his-community not so much.  What is happening is a massive acceleration of all the bad trends - not a reset.

    2.  The story you posted links to the underlying data I posted a few posts higher.  The headline is entirely misleading.  Even the text in report itself is confusing.  You have to dig right down to the data table to see that the true story is the opposite of what is being said in the newspaper!

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  • Sat, Mar 21, 2020 - 1:21pm

    RebelYell

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    to JimH on smoking

    Here's the study.

    https://journals.lww.com/cmj/Abstract/publishahead/Analysis_of_factors_associated_with_disease.99363.aspx

    It's based on 78 patients.  11 got worse including 3 smokers.  67 got better including 2 smokers.  My view is that the sample is too small to draw any significant conclusion.

    Also there was no discussion of whether the smokers were also in other risk groups.  In other words, were all the smokers also over 70?  Or did four of them have diabetes?  We don't know.

    So it wouldn't surprise me at all to find that smokers are at greater risk than non-smokers, but I doubt it's really 14x more risk.  General studies on pneumonia and smoking have shown (and this is from memory - apologies for not providing a link) that smoking increases risk by about 1/6 or so.

    On the vaping deaths from the fall.  If they were truly COVID-19 then clearly the virus isn't dangerous at all.  If we had hundreds of hospitalizations back then, and we took no special measures, and our hospitals have not yet been overwhelmed - then they aren't going to get overwhelmed either.

    So either they were not this virus, or the virus truly is nothing other than the seasonal flu.  I think in this case that the explanation at the time - bad weed 🙂 - is probably the correct one.

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  • Sat, Mar 21, 2020 - 1:24pm

    nordicjack

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    Rebel , I do not see where its the opposite

    I am not saying headlines can be misleading but there is nowhere in the article its not consistent with the headline and certainly not opposite.

    But of the 508 patients known to have been hospitalized, 38 percent were notably younger — between 20 and 54. And nearly half of the 121 patients who were admitted to intensive care units were adults under 65, the C.D.C. reported.

    “I think everyone should be paying attention to this,” said Stephen S. Morse, a professor of epidemiology at Columbia University’s Mailman School of Public Health. “It’s not just going to be the elderly. There will be people age 20 and up. They do have to be careful, even if they think that they’re young and healthy.”

    Half the patients admitted to the ICU where under 65 - this is working age and many work healthy and are active and functional well beyond that ..  if you think 65 is old, I will give you just a few years to see what 65 really is.   You are probably a child.

    As for the economy.  Exactly, we are going the wrong direction faster and faster.    Ok not a reset - it needs total destruction.. so you want to save a system that is as you describe?  and you think this is just going to game and make rich, richer again?  Yes you are probably correct.. But before change it has to get bad enough for the masses,  they have supported us just barely enough to keep breathing.. so they will either do it again . or waste us.. and in the end , if we are wasted.. it will be their demise.   WIN WIN...  it will take this to wake up people..

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  • Sat, Mar 21, 2020 - 2:29pm

    RebelYell

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    reply to nordicjack

    This is the table that underlies those words:

    That's the interesting data to me.

    Getting to the headline from there requires manipulation.  Uniquely amongst any study I have seen this one shows a much greater number of cases amongst younger people. In other words this study is claiming that

    -  a lot more young people get infected than older people

    -   young people who get infected are still pretty safe, but since so many of them are getting infected they make up a larger proportion of the hospitalized and ICU patients than they otherwise would.

    That contradicts everything we've seen anywhere else.  All other studies - based on much larger datasets and far more widespread testing  - from other countries (including much larger studies from Italy and China) have not shown that younger people are more likely to become infected.

    I think it is highly unlikely to continue to be the case that young people get infected at a higher rate than old people; it's much more likely that this is the accidental (or even possibly deliberate) result of the data being skewed somehow.  There are a million ways this could happen - but one obvious one might be if more young people travel to China than older people.  Combine that with the fact that early on tests were only given to people who had traveled to China and that would skew the results in exactly this way.

    Look at the results from China here, based on a much larger data set:

    Or the results from the Diamond Princess where everyone was tested so there is no skewing based on how tests were applied:

    Where it is pretty clear that the chance of becoming infected rises with age except for the teenage group which is likely an anomaly based on tiny sample size.

    So the important number for me here is the rate at which people who test positive end up getting hospitalized or into intensive care.  And this study is pretty clear - if you get infected and you are young - your chance of the disease getting worse is tiny.  Again remember you need to take the ICU rates and divide by 10 - 20 to get the real rate to allow for undercounting of cases.

    "You are probably a child."

    I wish I were, but even if I were - I'm not sure that's a strong argument for your case :-).

    Rebel

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  • Sat, Mar 21, 2020 - 2:49pm

    Jim H

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    Regarding vaping

    Rebell,  I am certainly not trying to imply that the, "vaping disease" was Covid.  Rather I am suggesting that vaping may predispose one to not having an asymptomatic or mild case if exposed.  Vaping will likely be shown to play a role in some fraction of the cases involving younger folks needing pulmonary interventions.  As well, and I hinted at this in an earlier post, I will bet you real money that folks who take prescription immunomodulators like Humira to treat (autoimmune) conditions like psoriasis and arthritis will be more likely to have a bad time with Covid-19.

    My picture of this is pretty simple;  If your immune system is not up the task, this thing can and will invade your lungs.  If you have certain kinds of underlying lung abnormalities caused by smoking, or vaping, or maybe even air pollution, you are more at risk of this disease taking ahold of your lungs, regardless of age.  As with any human condition, there are most certainly a long tail of co-factors with smaller weightings in the equation that determines where you end up on the wide range of outcomes once exposed.

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  • Sat, Mar 21, 2020 - 2:56pm

    RebelYell

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    to JimH

    Agree with everything you said.

     

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  • Sat, Mar 21, 2020 - 3:15pm

    Sparky1

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    Adam's newest video: "Covid-19 Home Lockdown Survival Guide" (3/21/20)

    The Coronavirus Home Lockdown Survival Guide: How To Stay Healthy, Sane & Solvent (3/21/20)

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C6NnSbZicJU

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  • Sat, Mar 21, 2020 - 3:42pm

    wheresdavid

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    a new video on how to make your own N95 reusable masks

    interesting video ...

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  • Sat, Mar 21, 2020 - 4:04pm

    nordicjack

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    rebel , you are using garbage data

    First this table that you are using is not associated with study that was done by the CDC/  reported cases.. I am not sure where that came from but it was no part of that article or research i posted.

    as for the diamond princess, I like it because its a closed random sample.  But the numbers there as you are using are meaningless garbage.   The percent per age group that are symptomatic - is useless.. if you test me today.. and i test positive.. but do not develop symptoms for a week or longer .. i was listed as asymptomatic.. you mean asymptomatic at time of test.. its garbage has no value at all.

    One other thing here..  Is you fail to miss that there is a very high aging population that cruises..  I doubt anyone will argue that this is not the 20 something cup of tea compared to the 55 over crowd.   so that chart showing many more sick older folk , means maybe there are a lot more older folk on the ship.     - really garbage data again.

    In reality , what you have really been trying to debate, and your argument you suggest, is way scarier than what i am trying to suggest.

    You are basically saying,  Is this is a benign disease for almost all young people - in fact its asymptomatic is most - and most never even get a symptom.  And its dependably really affects "old people" over sixty,  with definite course and death in most.   with very few exceptions..  with no real explanation of anything in between - like its such a small tiny percent its not worthy of any implication.

    That is a disease way scarier than what i am try to pose.

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  • Sat, Mar 21, 2020 - 5:59pm

    nordicjack

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    When you really become aware of then obsessed with cross-contamination

    Posted by Law on Wednesday, March 18, 2020

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  • Sat, Mar 21, 2020 - 6:26pm

    RebelYell

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    reply to nordicjack

    Sorry - should have been clearer about what I was saying above.

    "First this table that you are using is not associated with study that was done by the CDC/ reported cases.. I am not sure where that came from but it was no part of that article or research i posted."

    This is your article in the NY Times: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/18/health/coronavirus-young-people.html

    This is the study itself linked from the Times: https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/69/wr/mm6912e2.htm?s_cid=mm6912e2_w

    Read the study until you come to this bit: "Among 508 (12%) patients known to have been hospitalized, 9% were aged ≥85 years, 36% were aged 65–84 years, 17% were aged 55–64 years, 18% were 45–54 years, and 20% were aged 20–44 years. Less than 1% of hospitalizations were among persons aged ≤19 years (Figure 2). The percentage of persons hospitalized increased with age, from 2%–3% among persons aged ≤19 years, to ≥31% among adults aged ≥85 years".  Immmediately following that paragraph there is a link to "Table".  Click on it and you will get the data.  Or you can just scroll right down to the bottom of the study after the References and see it there.

    "But the numbers there as you are using are meaningless garbage. The percent per age group that are symptomatic – is useless.. if you test me today.. and i test positive.. but do not develop symptoms for a week or longer .. i was listed as asymptomatic.. you mean asymptomatic at time of test.. its garbage has no value at all."

    I wasn't making a point about symptomatic vs asymptomatic.  My argument was as follows:

    1.  The NY Times article claims young people have quite a high likelihood of getting infected based on a study of ~4,000 US patients who were tested.  In order to support this claim hey show data with two specific characteristics

    (i)  a large number of young people with positive test results, and a smaller number of older people with psoitive test results

    (ii)  a very low percentage of young people who tested positive requiring ICU treatment, and a higher percentage of older people requiring ICU treatment.

    As a consequence of (i), the total number of young people requiring admission to the ICU is rather closer to the total number of older people requiring admission to the ICU than might otherwise have been expected.

    So if the conclusion is to hold true going forwards then you have to accept that that result (more young people becoming infected than old people) is valid.  I don't think it is valid, and is very likely to be the result of some bias in the way the tests were adminsistered.  As evidence for my view here I am showing two studies.

    1.  From China, with many more patients (and where they didn't throw half of the patients out because the age wasn't available).  This study shows older people getting the disease more than younger people.

    2.  From the Diamond Princess where we know the data wasn't skewed because everyone was tested.  When you say:

    "One other thing here.. Is you fail to miss that there is a very high aging population that cruises.. I doubt anyone will argue that this is not the 20 something cup of tea compared to the 55 over crowd. so that chart showing many more sick older folk , means maybe there are a lot more older folk on the ship. – really garbage data again."

    Yes of course many more old people became infected because there were more old people.  However the data shows not only that there more old people as an absolute number - but that old people became infected at a greater rate.  So you can see that a total of 28 people aged 20-29 became infected out of 347 people in that age group on board.  28/347 is 8%.  For 60-69 year olds, 177/923 became infected or 19%.  All the other age groups are in that table too.

    "You are basically saying, Is this is a benign disease for almost all young people – in fact its asymptomatic is most – and most never even get a symptom. And its dependably really affects “old people” over sixty, with definite course and death in most. with very few exceptions.. with no real explanation of anything in between – like its such a small tiny percent its not worthy of any implication."

    No I'm not saying that at all.  I'm saying

    (i)  This disease is between 1x and 5x as virulent as seasonal 'flu (NOT 20-40x as many have been suggesting).

    (ii)  It is largely harmless (although perhaps still more dangerous than regular 'flu) for people under 50, and not especially worrying to people 50-60 who are otherwise in good health and don't smoke.

    (iii)  It is more dangerous for people over 60, and especially over 70 - but still much less dangerous than is being suggested.  Fatality is probably around 1-2% for over 70s.

    (iv)  Nevertheless it is extremely infectious and many more people will get it than get the seasonal 'flu.

    (v)  People who do develop serious symptoms seem to require protracted hospital care.

    (vi)  as a consequence of (iv) and (v) it still has the capacity to overwhelm our hospitals which is not a good outcome for anyone

    (vii)  However as a consequence of (i) and (iii)

    -  the cost of this disease in terms of death and suffering will be 10-20x less than it would be if you believed CFR were 2%-4%.

    -  our hospitals will be signifcantly less overwhelmed than otherwise

    -  the disease will run its course and the epidemic over in a shorter period

    -  the benefit of reducing the disease burden is lower than if the disease were much more dangerous, and we should think very hard about whether the cost we are about to impose will truly result in less suffering or more.

    Hopefully that's clearer.

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  • Sat, Mar 21, 2020 - 6:52pm

    mjvoet

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    mjvoet said:

    A fiasco in the making? As the coronavirus pandemic takes hold, we are making decisions without reliable data

     

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  • Sat, Mar 21, 2020 - 7:01pm

    shimz

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    Another risk factor

    FYI, The Swedish ICU register lists obesity as a risk factor.

    (Source: https://www.icuregswe.org/data--resultat/covid-19-i-svensk-intensivvard/ )

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  • Sat, Mar 21, 2020 - 7:05pm

    alanrgreenland

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    Thanks, Both -- nordicjack and RebelYell

    Thanks to both of you for the discussion.  I am amazed by the amount of time and effort you've both put into this discussion.  I got something out of it, but I might suggest that in the end it just doesn't matter.  I mean, if you are right RebelYell, then what should I (or you) do differently in the next 3 days, 3 weeks, or 3 months?  Compared to what I should do if nordicjack is (more) right?  I mean, we're going to know in a few months what this thing *really* is, and at this point the only thing we can do is comply with local government mandates and suggestions, keep ourselves safe and healthy, and wait for the whole thing to resolve -- one way or another.  So, while I've been fascinated by the discussion, I am focused on What Can I Do Today, mainly.  Thanks again, however, for your efforts.  Be well.

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  • Sat, Mar 21, 2020 - 7:13pm

    Hohhot

    Hohhot

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    Agree- young people unaware of potential permanent lung damage, high reinfection threat, and potential male infertility

    *Apologies for text aberrations. Having technical difficulties.

    While it is true many experience a "benign" course of illness the first infection, especially those under 18 yo., it doesn't mean it is without residual problems. Many recovered have COPD like lung damage on CT scans.  There are report of 16yos (girl, boy) on vents in Italy.  There are also a preliminary study that show the virus has a preference for both kidney and testicular tissue.  There is concern about future male sterility.  We know a first infection predisposes you for a second, much more acute episode.

    We do not know how SARSCov2 may behave when a second outbreak occurs. Spanish Flu was much worse on the 2nd of the 3 waves with the majority of dead between 20-40yos. They literally went from OK to grey and dead in 24 hours. What could cause such a decline?

    The well documented cytokine storm and subsequent nearly immediate heart failure and possible DIC- disseminating intravascular coagulation. Ebola and plague victims died of lung hemorrhaging and cardiovascular collapse. Remember that Ebola, Anthrax, Bubonic Plague all share commonalities of pathogenesis through hijacking the protease furin. It peels off the virus' protein cloaking coat to allow it to attach.  Anything that inhibits this process is beneficial. Selenium in solution has been proven to inhibit furin. The SARSCov2 virus attaches at ACE 2 receptors. Should they take the rogue pathway of immune response, the total organ shutdown centered around the lungs is rapid.

    During the 1993 Ebola Zaire outbreak, a Chinese Dr. Hou successfully treated 80 patients with high dose oral selenium. He theorized the virus created a selenoprotein which rapidly depleted all cellular stores.

    Keshan Disease, Selenium Deficiency, and the Selenoproteome

    • New England Journal of Medicine 370(18):1756-1760.                                  Investigation of a muscle disease in animals and a cluster of cases of cardiomyopathy in a region of China led to the elucidation of a central role for selenoproteins in human health.

    In animals, low selenium is well known to cause white muscle disease and a variety of hemorrhagic conditions.  Keshan's disease, a selenium induced cardiomyopathy, is found primarily in China, a country whose soil is depleted of this trace mineral.  Keshan's oddly shows seasonal fluctuations so a decline of infections during the summer may be related to, but not caused by the season, temperature, etc.

    Since selenium is essential for proper thyroid function, thyroid deficits caused by weather patterns may make someone the susceptible host not only for contagion, but also succumb to an already borderline selenium deficiency. Areas of the USA like Michigan are selenium deficit. *The largest category of prescribed drug in the USA are the thyroid replacement meds.

    Selenium deficiency increases the pathology of influenza virus infection

    Melinda Beck, et. al … See all authors 27 April 2001.      

    https://doi.org/10.1096/fj.00-0721fje

    Could this explain the long prodromal period before people show symptoms after infection?
    “Influenza‐infected Se‐deficient mice had an overexpression of mRNA for chemokines later in infection when compared with the Se‐adequate mice. The increases in RANTES, MIP‐1β, MIP‐ 1α, MIP‐2, IP‐10, and MCP‐1 all suggest that the inflammatory response was up‐regulated in these mice. The continuing inflammation noted in the Se‐deficient animals at a time when the pathology was resolving in the Se‐adequate mice suggests that the overexpression of the pro‐ inflammatory chemokines contributed to the continued influx of inflammatory cells in the lungs.”
    Could this be why SARSCov2 specifically destroys the lungs?
    "Thus, the increased lung pathology in the Se‐deficient animals may be due to an excess activation of NF‐ΚB (due to the influenza virus infection itself and to the increased oxidative stress due to a lack of GSH‐Px activity), which in turn up‐regulates the expression of chemokines. These overexpressed chemokines induce an influx of inflammatory cells to the infected lung tissues."

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  • Sat, Mar 21, 2020 - 7:22pm

    LabCat

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    ENOUGH ALREADY

    Is there any way we can start a sub-thread for Rebel Yell titled "A Thousand Reasons I don't believe Chris" : (Forward by DesoGames) ?

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  • Sat, Mar 21, 2020 - 7:41pm

    RebelYell

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    alanrgeenland

    "I mean, if you are right RebelYell, then what should I (or you) do differently in the next 3 days, 3 weeks, or 3 months?"

    Phone up your local council, your schoolboard, your state rep and your governor.  And demand wider testing.  And not to destroy your community, bankrupt your neighbors and start the next Great Depression.  That would be a start.

    Why aren't we testing?  First of all it was because we bungled the test kits.  Now it's because it's too late?  It's not too late - we absolutely must test so we can understand what's happening.  Anyone who doesn't want widespread testing at this point wants to keep you in the dark, or has been manipulated by someone who wants to keep you in the dark.  Challenge it - demand better data.

    And when you see all the bailouts and special payments and emergency measures, watch who is getting rich and see with a clearer eye what is happening.

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  • Sat, Mar 21, 2020 - 7:46pm

    RebelYell

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    Labcat

    Fair enough - I'll take the hint :-).

    But it's not about disagreeing with Chris for the sake of disagreeing with Chris.  Your eye is being focused on the wrong ball.  It's stuff like this you need to watch:

    https://www.zerohedge.com/political/sweeping-power-grab-doj-seeks-ability-detain-people-indefinitely-without-trial

    Think they'll take that off the books once it's passed?  It'll be the Patriot Act all over again.

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  • Sat, Mar 21, 2020 - 8:58pm

    nordicjack

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    I really did not want to hijack this thread

    I really didnt want to feel I needed defend a position here.  Of course we collaborate on ideas and share information.  hopefully in a productive manner.

    But on to Mjvoet, fiasco in the making.   Part of what this thread was really about.  Is I think that only testing those that present the sickest is wrong... Those should be clinically diagnosed and treated.   We should not waste valuable test kits on these people.  What is needed is community level surveillance,  what we are doing is hospital level surveillance that is not needed and dumb..   So, this would be numbers we need to see the spread.. the hospital stuff can be extrapolated from that.

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  • Sat, Mar 21, 2020 - 9:31pm

    Hohhot

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    Politics may be driving the choices, not microbiology or medical duty

    I once wrote an article for a local newspaper about bioweapons during the Congressional anthrax scare. Learned a great deal.  According to the experts, the perfect weapon has high transmissibility, serious morbidity, and high mortality. Ideally, it would be airborne with a likelihood of becoming endemic thus crippling a society economically and disrupting all food production.  SARSCov2 seems to fit those criteria. It is "the gift that keeps on giving."

    What I am most dismayed about is the disjointed response by major health officials with governmental agencies. CDC has one and only one job- to protect the American public from known and new, emerging diseases.  They have failed miserably. People should be fired. "How could we have prepared for this?" they whine...well, setting up screening/ quarantine of all passengers from China and other outbreak areas in Dec/Jan would have been helpful. That is their failure, not anyone else's. The current advice to "not wear a mask" directly contradicts their own document about droplet and airborne precautions which specifically references SARS precautions like healthy people wearing a mask if within 6-10 feet of an infected person's room. CDC's 2009 H1N1 flu response was equally abysmal.

    Please review their performance during O's reign over the 2014 Dallas Ebola debacle. A patient traveled by plane to the USA after leaving a high outbreak area, and wound up contaminating people in Dallas including his nurse.  Unprotected deputies entered and left his apartment.  Infection control measures even within the hospital were a joke as evidenced by accumulating trash piles in an adjacent room. CDC then OK'd his infected, febrile nurse to fly domestically to see her family

    They didn't bungle it due to "lack of funding" then, but sheer stupidity and avarice. BTW, during this time a contract was awarded to a San Francisco based company Metabiota to "manage the outbreak."  Although founded by rock-star virologist Ethan Wolfe, the company was more hype than action. WHO fired them.  Funny this, they were tied to Google funding and worked with Tulane University.  Tulane heavily courts Chinese students, and has even opened their law school to them since 2013.

    Dr. Messionner of CDC according to her profile has been in public service positions since 1995 and associated with CDC since at least 2001. Surely as the head of respiratory diseases, she should know something about potential pandemics. Dr.Fauci of NIH has been in "public service for 50 years." Again, with this record, how can you be unaware of such an outbreak?

    Since Dr. Fauci is a huge HRC supporter, and Dr. Messionner is Atty. Rod Rosenstein's sister, I'm sure partisan politics couldn't possibly be involved.

    Read an interesting book years ago from the DC Holocaust museum," Racial Hygiene: Medicine Under The Nazis" by Robert Proctor.  He clearly demonstrated how the medical profession was used not only to shape the public's perception, but craft laws to make inhumane acts acceptable. Know where they began? Assisted suicide/euthanasia for the terminally ill. A seemingly humane answer to suffering. Sound familiar?

    They filled the 40% physician vacancy left by removing Jews and used home grown party members as the new MDs. One got a free education and a good job for allegiance. This indoctrination was excellent as killing bus loads of Downs children with carbon monoxide was good for the state and didn't conflict with their professional ethics.

    Here is an example of politically driven ideology guiding the actions of medical personnel to what many consider an extreme. Sadly, makes me wonder about the current state of affairs.

     

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  • Sun, Mar 22, 2020 - 2:53am

    sofistek

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    Can Homo Sapiens change its characterstic species behaviour?

    Chris expressed a lot of hope at the end of this update (almost made it sound like his last update!) but I don't think there is much evidence that humans can become the first species to willingly change its characteristic behaviour. However, if we are in for a drastic change in our societies, I guess some may become "better" than others but the most successful will probably propagate eventually. Just which type of society that will be is anyone's guess, but there is no guarantee that it will start off benign.

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  • Sun, Mar 22, 2020 - 5:47am

    Optimus

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    Theory - Hypertension and Diabetes angiotensin (ACE or ARB) Medications may increase risk for COVID-19 infection

    This is where that theory comes from some drs in china looking at case statistics. Chris at 25 minute mark mentioned in podcast, he was not sure where concern over ibuprofen came from in relation to COVID-19

    Human pathogenic coronaviruses (severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus [SARS-CoV] and SARS-CoV-2) bind to their target cells through angiotensin-converting enzyme 2 (ACE2), which is expressed by epithelial cells of the lung, intestine, kidney, and blood vessels. The expression of ACE2 is substantially increased in patients with type 1 or type 2 diabetes, who are treated with ACE inhibitors and angiotensin II type-I receptor blockers (ARBs). Hypertension is also treated with ACE inhibitors and ARBs, which results in an upregulation of ACE2  ACE2 can also be increased by thiazolidinediones and ibuprofen

    https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanres/article/PIIS2213-2600(20)30116-8/fulltext

    This is two seemingly credible dr's in austraila discussing their perspective on ACE/ARBS

    https://www1.racgp.org.au/newsgp/clinical/ace-inhibitors-arbs-and-covid-19-what-gps-need-to

    On the theory of blood pressure medicines, further research is needed, it is interesting to look at people on blood pressure medicines as people age.

    https://www.heart.org/idc/groups/heart-public/@wcm/@sop/@smd/documents/downloadable/ucm_319574.pdf

     

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  • Sun, Mar 22, 2020 - 6:04am

    KugsCheese

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    Pitt Neurobiology Prof Explains CoronaVirus Was Lab Engineered

    Must Watch.

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  • Sun, Mar 22, 2020 - 7:54am

    drbrucedale

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    Where to get and how to use hydroxychloroquine and Azithromycin

    Hi AKTED:

    I sent this PDF to our kids this morning. I think it answers your questions.  I got a pretty quick email in response from our youngest daughter gently reaming me out for promoting "hysteria".  So don't you go hysterical on me. I can't handle any more guilt.  🙂

    Not really, most of our kids haven't paid attention to me in years. Par for the course, I think.

    HOW TO GET AND USE THE CORONAVIRUS MEDS

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  • Sun, Mar 22, 2020 - 8:18am

    Mipharm

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    Vitamin A and ACE2 receptor

    I haven't read all the comments on this thread so my apologies if its already been talked about.  Just watching Adam's podcast on Lockdown Survival and he talked about Vitamin A as helpful against the virus.  I just read a paper from Chris Masterjohn (PhD) and he said if you are taking extra Vitamin A you should stop until the danger has past as it increases the ACE2 receptor that the Virus attaches.  His paper is $10 but its well worth it. https://chrismasterjohnphd.com/

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  • Sun, Mar 22, 2020 - 10:25am

    Mipharm

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    Meds

    drbrucedale - I don't think you can get these here if you are a US resident.  I tried to check out and couldn't ??  the bank page wouldn't even come up.

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  • Sun, Mar 22, 2020 - 10:26am

    centroid

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    centroid said:

    WATCH THIS CHRIS OR ADAM!. i’m an Australian and this is “a national press club” interview with “experts” in epidemiology etc and in particular at around the 36 minute mark where 2-3 of these experts say masks don’t matter:

    https://iview.abc.net.au/show/national-press-club-address

    all i can say is Wow!. thanks for your material which overwhelming supports mask usage

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  • Sun, Mar 22, 2020 - 10:28am

    RebelYell

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    Bailouts while everyone panics

    The Fed already printed trillions.  Now the government gets to have a turn.  More trillions will be handed out to crooked shysters.  When the government prints money, they don't create any wealth - they are just moving the wealth around.  So the only actual winner from all the bailouts will be whoever gets the most.  Hint - it won't be you or me.  We might get $1,000 if we're lucky.  Get yourself a lobbyist though and hand out some bribes and you could get $1 million, or $1 billion, or $1 trillion.

    To the crooks in Washington (both parties) this is not a tragedy, it's an opportunity.  And they will take the opportunity to steal as much as they can.

    https://www.zerohedge.com/markets/stop-coronavirus-corporate-coup-here-list-everyone-demanding-bail-out

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  • Sun, Mar 22, 2020 - 10:42am

    viraltruth

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    Widely viewed article on Chloroquine by James Todaro MD is a hoax

    The report attributed to James Todaro, MD, and claiming to be done "in consulstation with Stanford University School of Medicine" is a hoax.

    Stanford unequivocally denies any part in it.  "Stanford Medicine was not involved in a widely circulating Google document or research paper suggesting that chloroquine is a potential treatment for COVID-19. Claims that we were involved are false. Please refer to this site for accurate information about COVID-19, and please consult a physician before taking any sort of prescription medication."  (https://med.stanford.edu/covid19.html)

    Further, James Todaro, MD, is primarily a bitcoin promoter, not an epedemiologist or infectious diseases expert.  Todaro's Tweet comaining he had Didie Raoult's permission to publish the work of Raoul, was taken down by Twitter.  The first place Todaro's article was published, in Google docs, was taken down by Google.

    There are other links to use of Chloroquine in China and South Korea as a treatment for Coronavirus, but the article getitng all the attnetion is clearly bogus.

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  • Sun, Mar 22, 2020 - 12:29pm

    drbrucedale

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    Try River Pharmacy in Canada

    Hi Mipharm:

    I am a resident of Michigan. I have ordered lots of medicines from River Pharmacy in Canada over the years.

    https://www.riverpharmacy.ca/

    It is very easy and smooth. They use your bank routing information via Genie to pay electronically with a check. If you are a US resident you can use this Canadian site. US residents cannot use the UnitedPharmacies site, if I understand correctly. (I have never used them.)

    Call them at 888-848-1945 if you have questions or trouble.

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  • Sun, Mar 22, 2020 - 1:38pm

    alanrgreenland

    alanrgreenland

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    Please Be Careful if you try to Self-medicate using Chloroquine

    Story of two Nigerian deaths due to use of chloroquine:

    https://www.theglobeandmail.com/world/article-at-least-two-cases-of-chloroquine-poisoning-in-nigeria-after-trump/

    On another thread (can't find it now), someone (sandpuppy??) explained that chloroquine is counter-indicated for individuals with certain conditions.  (In other words, it could be dangerous for those people to use it.)

    Just be careful out there!

     

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  • Sun, Mar 22, 2020 - 1:50pm

    alanrgreenland

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    RebelYell, I'm with you on testing

    I totally agree we should be testing, testing, testing.  This absolutely *has* been bungled, but I'm afraid at this point that the exponential curve of infection will outpace our ability to field accurate tests.  (So you go to war with the # of tests you have, not the # of tests you wish you had...)  Heads should roll for this, for sure.

    So, yes, everyone should give their government representatives the what-for about the lack tests, if for no other reason than to ensure this problem doesn't happen again (for the next pandemic).

    Another thing (while I'm at it):  Tell your representatives to stop with the "mask-shaming", telling everyone they shouldn't wear a mask -- because (they say) we're taking it away from some healthcare worker who could use it.  Really?  If I prevent the spread of the disease by *correctly* using one mask (and re-using it, by the way), how many masks can I save the HCWs from needing to use to treat the cases that don't occur?  Another way to say this:  If we could have magically given every person in the country a mask two weeks ago, and forced them to use it (properly), how many fewer new cases would be presenting now?  The mask-shaming is hogwash.  (My wife and I are seriously thinking about how to hide our real masks under some home-made "masks".)

     

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  • Sun, Mar 22, 2020 - 1:53pm

    TurquoiseRose

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    Gilead suspends access to COvid -19 drug, REMDESIVIR due to overwhelming demand

    https://www.statnews.com/2020/03/22/gilead-suspends-access-to-experimental-covid-19-drug-remdesivir/ 

    The company said in a statement that it is focused on processing previously approved requests, and that it is developing a new system that it says will allow patients to get the drug in a similar timeframe to what it would have taken to work through the requests it has received.

    It will make exceptions for pregnant women and children under 18 years of age with confirmed Covid-19 and “severe manifestations” of the disease.

    Remdesivir is being studied in five large clinical trials, two of which could read out results in early April. Up until now, Gilead has made it possible for patients who want the drug to get it through a process called “compassionate use.” To date, the company said, it has provided emergency access to several hundred patients in the United States, Europe, and Japan.

    The company said in its statement that “enrollment in clinical trials is the primary way to access remdesivir to generate critical data that inform the appropriate use of this investigational medicine.”

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  • Sun, Mar 22, 2020 - 1:55pm

    Jim H

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    Mask shaming

    I find I am not the only person in the store with a mask anymore.  I think this shaming will fade into the background.. not like I care in the least.  My wife gets all rattled by the idea that people are looking at us or talking about us... but again, that's up to you to care or not.

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  • Sun, Mar 22, 2020 - 2:11pm

    centroid

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    centroid said:

    anoculum. is there such a word? i cant find it on google

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  • Sun, Mar 22, 2020 - 2:19pm

    Dutch Boomer

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    Chloroquine not effective against Corona when taken orally

    Dutch human tests phase started with Chloroquine as inhalor. If succeeded it will get approved within about 3 months. Researchers said when taken orally the stuff is not really effective, it needs input directly in the lungs by inhalation

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  • Sun, Mar 22, 2020 - 2:26pm

    sofistek

    Status: Platinum Member

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    Recognition

    Well, don't worry about what people think about your wearing a mask, they probably can't recognise you, if you did

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  • Sun, Mar 22, 2020 - 2:28pm

    Eannao

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    Re: Chloroquines not effective against Corona when taken orally

    Can you reference your source please? Thanks.

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  • Sun, Mar 22, 2020 - 2:32pm

    matfax

    matfax

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    matfax said:

    There is no evidence if it is the ARB itself or the cause/reason for taking the ARB that increases the risk so significantly. We know that hypertension and Diabetes is a problem regardless of ARB intake. Taking no ARBs would even enhance hypertension. Correlation isn't always proof of a direct causal relation.

    Even if you consider the Angiotensin metabolic mechanism behind, I don't see ARBs as a problem. The real risk from Angiotensins derives from a dysbalance of Angiotensin 1, 2, and 1-7. In most chronic inflammatory diseases such as Diabetes 2, it's a low Angiotensin 1-7/Angiotensin 2 ratio that mediates the subsequent problems (such as Aldosterone-mediated hypertension). The low ratio derives from a low activity/expression of ACE2 enzymes (it might sound confusing that ACE2 transforms Angiotensin 1-7 from 2). Angiotensin 2 is transformed from ACE enzymes. Depending on the agent, it's either the ACE enzyme or a precursing metabolite that is inhibited. The medication should be dosed in such a way that ACE and ACE2 activity keep the whole metabolism in balance. The virus will reduce ACE2 expression (similar to Diabetes 2 or smoking). That means Angiotensin 2/1-7 ratio will increase (there are other inefficient pathways luckily that will try to compensate this in a limited manner). And now let's imagine that the ARB treatment is stopped. The Angiotensin 2/1-7 ratio will increase even further.

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  • Sun, Mar 22, 2020 - 2:35pm

    sofistek

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    Germany's Covid-19 death rate

    Germany's numbers seem out of whack with other countries' numbers. An apparent death rate of about 0.3% (using the simple calculation) and only 2 serious unresolved cases seems absurd, compared to other countries. I've heard some speculation as to why this is but it's just speculation to date.

    However, using Chris's calculation of number of deaths over number of resolved cases, the ratio is 25%. With so many unresolved cases (98.5% of cases), I guess it's more of a "watch this space".

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  • Sun, Mar 22, 2020 - 2:57pm

    Dutch Boomer

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    Dutch Boomer said:

    a dutch senator who is also active member in the health research dept of the Universaty of Amsterdam told this on TV. I will post the Youtube link later, however it is in Dutch language.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fftV4FhVGBE&utm_source=Forum+voor+Democratie&utm_campaign=708a94f289-EMAIL_CAMPAIGN_2020_03_21_07_32&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_9b4acd8f60-708a94f289-361014065&mc_cid=708a94f289&mc_eid=00f925bea5

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  • Sun, Mar 22, 2020 - 2:57pm

    nordicjack

    nordicjack

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    Rebel, things are looking bad

    I know you are not so keen on how serious this .. but soon you will understand, via someone you know.. sadly.

    "If we don't get more ventilators in the next 10 days people will die who don't have to die," said Mayor Bill de Blasio, as the nation's most populous city saw COVID-19 cases top 9,600 and deaths climbed to 63.

    I think we havent cracked anything.. its going to start to get ugly .. and we cant stop it even with lockdown

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  • Sun, Mar 22, 2020 - 3:09pm

    drbrucedale

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    the word is probably "inoculum"

    I am not sure what post you are referring to, but in the context of this virus the correct word is probably "inoculum" and refers to the initial dose of the virus you get in your body...how many virus particles per pound of body weight would be a typical way of expressing this number.

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  • Sun, Mar 22, 2020 - 3:13pm

    Jim H

    Status: Bronze Member

    Joined: Jun 08 2009

    Posts: 1206

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    Germany, US East Coast vs West Coast, and other conundrums

    Comparing different countries data, and even US East vs West Coast data, causes one to scratch their head.  We saw from Sandpuppy earlier that the East Coast version of Covid-19 is starting to sound more like Italy than, shall we say, South Korea.

    As well, where I sit, about 200 miles South of Seattle, in the Southern border of WA in Clark County, the stat's being generated in the county thus far are actually kind of promising given the fact that we are already all but shut down;

    From the local paper, The Columbian, today;

    A Sunday morning update from Clark County Public Health shows a 10th local person has been confirmed to be suffering from COVID-19, the novel coronavirus.

    The patient is a man in his 70s who has had contact with one of the nine other confirmed local cases. He has been quarantined, and is recovering at home.

    So far, 10 people locally have been confirmed to have the virus. Three have died. In addition, another 219 local tests have returned negative for COVID-19,

    Although the number appears to be very low, health authorities believe that many more people are suffering from the disease, but have not been able to be tested due to the high volume of requests.

    So, quite a few negative tests.  Is the problem high false negatives?  No doubt there are infected folks out there spreading it around.. but still.. it feels like maybe we are going to get ahead of it locally.  There are no reports of any young folks requiring hospitalization for Covid-19 here.

    So what is going on?  Does the East Coast literally have a different, dominant strain that is more virulent to the young?  You may recall that my home state, WA, had maybe the first known cluster in Kirkland, near Seattle, so it's not like we didn't have a head start.

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  • Sun, Mar 22, 2020 - 3:15pm

    drbrucedale

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    Right about overdosing

    Yes, that is correct. You can overdose on any medicine, thinking that if 1X is good, then 5x is five times as good.  Nope!! The dosages I gave were those referenced in the Chinese study. Hopefully people will use their heads and the best information they can find. In an ideal world and "normal" times, we could go to our local doctor and have him/her prescribe the right dosage for us. These are not normal times and this is not an ideal world. Still, try to see your doctor if you can...but that might end up being difficult or impossible under our current conditions. We will have to do the best we can and see how things unfold/unravel from here.

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  • Sun, Mar 22, 2020 - 3:20pm

    drbrucedale

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    Method of administering chloroquine

    I am not a doctor, but the Chinese study I referenced appear to administer the chloroquine orally...and certainly the antibiotic would be taken orally.  The blood circulates right up to the surface of lung tissue, so I don't understand why a blood-born anti-malarial wouldn't reach the virus in the lungs.

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  • Sun, Mar 22, 2020 - 3:26pm

    nordicjack

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    After serous discussion, I have had 2 revelations about the origins of and CFR of covid

    I was speaking with my wife and we have come to a conclusion about several things not adding up that do not make sense with this virus.   First,  I think this does have a CFR of 15-18% ( per francis boyle )  The serious case rate is between 18-28%.. and studies the best we have and from china have confirmed this.  Also, though many people seemed to disregard a lot of the studies coming from china early on - I believe all of them have proved to be consistent with findings with other countries now - or soon will be.

    But for me ,  it got me thinking - perhaps this is really a bioweapon that was leaked.  It is very very odd in its ability to kill and who.   The kid thing is such an odd anomaly, that it cant really be over-looked.  There are only two things that possibly make sense here.  One, there is an ADE effect at play.  People who are older are more likely to have been sensitized to another or similar virus that will cause the ADE actions where is this is less likely or at able to cause the effect when you are very young.   The only other possible way to explain this is troubling.  Perhaps this is actually a bioweapon, and there is a vaccine for it.   Something that the Big Pharma has been sneaked into the Vaccines and the kids in the last 20 years have received.

    The later would have some significant implications.   The one thing that would make this more reasonable than lets say the ADE effect,  is that we know the more vaccinating you do, the less able your body is capable of mounting a proper response to a "novel" virus.  This has been proven time and time and study-after-study.    So it would make no sense that kids are unaffected by a novel virus that can kill a middle age person without even causing a single child to die.    I have a hard time with this ..  We do know kids and young people have stronger immune systems - but not when you are under 5 years..  So,  its not like no kids have died 5-19  . its no kids..  So.. that is my block that says heck this is not just immune system weak.. that causes this thing to kill.   It has to be ADE or some protective thing in Vaccines..  However, kids get very few vaccines the first year.. so, why are these kids not impacted.  if we are talking 2-5 its different.  But , I am struggling with this.. I think the answer to why people are dying, lies in who are dying..

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  • Sun, Mar 22, 2020 - 3:39pm

    nordicjack

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    Germany's crazy CFR serious numbers

    If these numbers are even close to accurate - something is going on in Germany far outside of genetics.   I know personally via my wife's research as a nutritionist,  that Germany is very progressive , probably the most progressive in the world, in common use of nutrition/herbal supplementation for disease.   I wonder if there is something commonly prescribed for cold or flu that is protective.

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  • Sun, Mar 22, 2020 - 3:47pm

    ao

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    nordicjack, kids do get vaccines early on

    My grandson is well under a year old and has had several already but my daughter has had them spread out to avoid the risk of autism or other potential adverse effects.  Her doctor is good about this but other doctors want the kids to have even more and my daughter vetoed some of them.

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  • Sun, Mar 22, 2020 - 4:02pm

    nordicjack

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    Loss of sense of taste and smell - covid symptom

    Its being reported that this could be early symptom useful in isolating before people are symptomatic.     Germany seems to have the highest percent reporting this - again, with the mildest cases.

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  • Sun, Mar 22, 2020 - 4:03pm

    ao

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    nordicjack, i've wondered the same thing about Germany

    Did you see Poet's post earlier about autopsies and pneumonia?  But you're right about the Germans being very advanced with nutritional/herbal medicine.  They have all the major herbs standardized for medical prescription.  I have a number of German textbooks in various areas of neuromusculoskeletal medicine and they are more precise and advanced than what I've read in the US or in the Commonwealth country literature.

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  • Sun, Mar 22, 2020 - 4:05pm

    nordicjack

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    thanks AO

    Yeah , they really hammer out the kids today.  its just wrong.. My school wants my daughter vaccinated for hep b and hep a --  Hep B , per CDC site, cannot get it from kissing, touching , sharing utensils.. etc..    but is transmitted by sexual intercourse , sharing needles, surgery etc..    Why the heck does a 5 year old need this??. "NO RISK REWARD HERE"  same with Hep A the risk is way tooo small for the reward of these vaccines.

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  • Sun, Mar 22, 2020 - 5:01pm

    dtrammel

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    Good Article / Scary Story

    Nice article that tells how the virus progresses in your body

    https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2020/03/the-story-of-a-coronavirus-infection.html

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  • Sun, Mar 22, 2020 - 5:15pm

    RebelYell

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    Don't think I've ever suggested it's not serious

    It's clearly serious.

    Please don't confuse my suggestion that the CFR is currently overstated, with the suggestion that this isn't any more serious than 'flu.  Purely in terms of deaths, I believe it is at a minimum 10x more serious than 'flu, and quite possibly 40x as serious.

    And if our hospitals get overwhelmed, that could rise to 80x as serious or more.  And yes, I do expect that people I know will die.  And that makes me sad.

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  • Sun, Mar 22, 2020 - 5:16pm

    sofistek

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    German numbers

    There's definitely something wrong with Germany's numbers. On the worldometer page, yesterday's numbers show 84 dead and 2 serious cases. Today's numbers show 94 dead and still 2 serious cases. That can't be right. I think we can ignore Germany's numbers for now, except, perhaps, the known cases.

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  • Sun, Mar 22, 2020 - 5:28pm

    yogmonster

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    Happy ending?

    Could have at least giving us a happy ending.

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  • Sun, Mar 22, 2020 - 5:39pm

    RebelYell

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    Article from FT on Germany

    https://www.ft.com/content/c0755b30-69bb-11ea-800d-da70cff6e4d3

    I usually get blocked from FT articles by the paywall, but for some reason I could see this one.

    FT doesn't want me to cut and paste as it's a copyright violation apparently, so I will paraphrase:

    Germany running 160,000 test per week and increasing - more even than South Korea.

    Germany detecting many infections with few or no symptoms with much higher rates of survical which explains low fatality rate.

    Also notes that more than 80 per cent of all people infected are younger than 60 - which does seem to match what we are seeing in US so I may have been wrong to reject that as bad data.

    End of paraphrasing.

    It has crossed my mind that if countries run huge numbers of tests on completely asymptomatic people (e.g. Singapore and maybe now Germany) they may also suffer from a false positive problem.  Let's say a single test is 93% accurate (no idea how accurate this test is - just guessing), and it is run twice with two positive results being required for a confirmed case - so the double test is 99.5% accurate.  Then if Germany runs 1,000 tests and gets ten positive results 5 of those will be real cases and 5 will be false positive results.  So the number of reported cases will be twice as high as the actual number, which would make the fatality rate appear to be artifically lower.

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  • Sun, Mar 22, 2020 - 7:01pm

    RebelYell

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    Case count in Ohio

    This article (https://www.news5cleveland.com/news/continuing-coverage/coronavirus/ohio-department-of-health-says-100-000-ohioans-are-carrying-coronavirus) from 3/12 suggests that Ohio had at least 117,000 cases at that time despite reporting only 5 positive test results.

    "We know now, just the fact of community spread says that at least 1%, at the very least 1% of our population is carrying this virus in Ohio today," said Dr. Amy Acton, Director of ODH. "We have 11.7 million people."

    According to the Governor Mike DeWine’s Office and the ODH, cases are expected to double every six days.

    "Whenever you know of 2 people that have it due to community spread, then you can assume that 1% of your population has it," said ODH Press Secretary Melanie Amato, citing a 2017 Morbidity and Mortality Weekly Report from the CDC.

    I think the conclusion drawn by the newspaper is false, because it has arbitrarily decided that the "community" is the entire state.  It feels more logical to me that we should assume that 1% of the community (township?/city?/county?) where the community spread occurred might be infected, but generalizing to the whole state is probably a stretch.

    Still the implication is that there were hundreds of times more cases than were reported at that time.

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  • Sun, Mar 22, 2020 - 11:30pm

    sofistek

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    Partial explanation

    That explanation only partly potentially explains the German numbers. Why was the serious/critical number static, despite ongoing deaths?

    Update: the serious/critical number just increased to 23 (from 2) but it still doesn't seem right. The Vo study implied that there aren't huge numbers of asymptomatic carriers and other countries that have aggressive testing do not see such a low rate of death and serious, relative to overall cases.

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  • Mon, Mar 23, 2020 - 12:22am

    Dutch Boomer

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    Germany

    If any country can be trusted for statistics it would be Germany. They are known through the years as perfectionists. My best guess is that they test a lot lot lot more than other countries. In Holland they only test if you are symptomatic AND older than 70 years... So, shown fatality rate will be high automaticly

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  • Mon, Mar 23, 2020 - 8:16am

    matfax

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    matfax said:

    Guys, the German numbers aren't wrong. It's because we only have relatively few old infected people and because of the best ICU system in the world. We have so few old infected since most of our infections have been imported from Italy or were spread during Carnival.

    BTW, only because Quinines might be useful for acute cases, that doesn't mean that it has any use as a daily supplement. The use of Quinine is risky and taking it too early might even inhibit the normal healthy immune response. This has been shown in a mouse model [1]. Check this post about the false information that is spread on the topic.

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  • Mon, Mar 23, 2020 - 1:29pm

    sofistek

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    Germany numbers

    The numbers, as reported by worldometer, are definitely not correct. Last change was an increase of 24 deaths but the previous day, there were only 23 serious cases. Today, there are still 23 serious cases.

    Testing doesn't seem to be the whole story, particularly in light of the limited studies that have been done so far (one of which suggests the case count might only be 73% higher than official numbers).

    However, the death numbers do seem to be increasing, so the reports may change.

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  • Mon, Mar 23, 2020 - 10:22pm

    RebelYell

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    Test cases by country

    Found this chart.  Really good data.

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  • Mon, Mar 23, 2020 - 11:37pm

    Linda T

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    US East Coast vs West Coast, and other conundrums

    Jim  H,

    I am also perplexed by case counts on the East coast versus West Coast, as well as different countries, and maybe there are different strains in different areas... More than the S and L  strains? Approx 3 weeks ago when I first learned of the worldometersinfo website, I have been checking it daily and out of curiousity I created a Word document for myself after someone here had asked if anyone knew when cases first started showing in the U.S., so I scrolled all the way to the bottom of the site, copying and pasting as I went. Bits about what states had how many new cases and deaths. Now the U.S. has so many new cases (and it's in third place, and soon will bypass China by the looks of it) it only shows the total number of new cases and deaths. In the beginning Washington cases had started showing up pretty regularly, going boom, but now New York's has gone boom. Somewhere, here maybe?, I read initially that WA was our version of Wuhan, but now New York state has a LOT more cases than Washington. Today I was curious about case counts in each of the states and out of curiousity I clicked on the link "US". Wow, New York now has 23,230 cases compared to Washington's 2,221. I'll post the chart showing the states below, but I don't know what it will look like after pasting it.

    Earlier tonight I read this online:

    "Texas Lt. Gov. Dan Patrick (R) seems to think that if given the choice, Americans 70 and over would be willing to risk getting coronavirus and possibly dying if it means stores re-open and the economy rebounds.

    On Fox News Monday night, Patrick lamented not being asked how he would balance protecting some of the people most at-risk for contracting coronavirus — adults 65 and over — while keeping businesses up and running. "No one reached out to me and said, as a senior citizen, are you willing to take a chance on your survival in exchange for keeping the America that all America loves for your children and grandchildren?" he said. "If that's the exchange, I'm all in." He's completely disregarding the fact that 20-40's are getting infected and seriously ill s well, in addition to a few even younger than that... Idiot.

    USA
    State

    Total
    Cases

    New
    Cases

    Total
    Deaths

    New
    Deaths

    Active
    Cases

    New York
    23,230
    +2,355
    183
    +26
    22,939

    New Jersey
    2,844

    27

    2,817

    Washington
    2,221

    110

    1,987

    California
    2,162
    +29
    43
    +3
    2,113

    Michigan
    1,328

    15

    1,313

    Illinois
    1,285

    12

    1,271

    Florida
    1,227

    18

    1,209

    Louisiana
    1,172

    35

    1,137

    Texas
    806

    9

    786

    Georgia
    803

    26

    777

    Massachusetts
    777

    9

    767

    Colorado
    720

    7

    713

    Pennsylvania
    644

    6

    638

    Tennessee
    615

    2

    613

    Ohio
    442

    6

    436

    Wisconsin
    416

    5

    410

    Connecticut
    415

    10

    405

    North Carolina
    410

    410

    South Carolina
    299

    5

    294

    Maryland
    288

    3

    281

    Indiana
    259

    7

    252

    Utah
    257

    1

    256

    Virginia
    254

    7

    246

    Mississippi
    249

    1

    248

    Nevada
    245

    4

    241

    Minnesota
    235

    1

    210

    Arizona
    234

    2

    231

    Arkansas
    197

    197

    Missouri
    196

    5

    191

    Alabama
    196

    196

    Oregon
    191

    5

    186

    District of Columbia
    137

    2

    135

    Kentucky
    124

    4

    118

    Maine
    107

    104

    Rhode Island
    106

    106

    Iowa
    105

    105

    New Hampshire
    101

    1

    100

    Delaware
    87
    +19

    87

    New Mexico
    83

    83

    Kansas
    82

    2

    80

    Oklahoma
    81

    2

    78

    Hawaii
    77

    77

    Vermont
    75

    5

    70

    Nebraska
    50

    50

    Idaho
    47

    47

    Montana
    45

    45

    Alaska
    36
    +4

    36

    North Dakota
    32

    32

    South Dakota
    28

    1

    21

    Wyoming
    26

    26

    West Virginia
    20
    +4

    20

    Diamond Princess Cruise
    49

    49

    Grand Princess Cruise
    30

    1

    29

    Total:
    46,145
    2,411
    582
    29
    45,268

     

    Linda

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  • Tue, Mar 24, 2020 - 12:07am

    AKGrannyWGrit

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    I Feel Ill But It’s Not The Virus

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