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    Yes, You Can Get Covid-19 Twice

    We may be living with this virus...forever
    by Adam Taggart

    Friday, July 10, 2020, 7:39 AM

As we covered in a recent video, herd immunity is getting to look like a more elusive goal than originally hoped.

In fact, we are now seeing convincing evidence of people contracting covid-19 more than once. If indeed the case, that suggests we may never be able to reach herd immunity.

In today’s video, Chris talks with the spouse of a patient still recovering from a second case of covid-19. Hearing of this family’s harrowing experience with the virus gives a very personal proof that this virus is not “just the flu”.

It’s time we start emotionally preparing for the potential that we may be living with covid-19…forever:

Anyone who would like to contribute to Cheri’s GoFundme page can do so by clicking here.

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41 Comments

  • Fri, Jul 10, 2020 - 8:02am

    #1

    dtrammel

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    Could This Be ADE During A Second Illness?

    Saw this report. I wonder if this could be the result of ADE, during a second exposure to Covid?

    Kazakhstan: Chinese officials warn of new 'unknown pneumonia' that is deadlier than coronavirus

     

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  • Fri, Jul 10, 2020 - 9:02am

    #2
    RM11

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    Was it Covid-19? If so, was it never fully cleared the first time?

    Was she tested both times for Covid-19? Did she test negative for Covid-19 after her first illness? Did she test positive for Covid-19 antibodies after either illness? If Covid-19, could the first infection have never fully cleared and reemerged a second time?

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  • Fri, Jul 10, 2020 - 9:16am

    #3
    Mohammed Mast

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    Hate to say it

    The last two vids have been disappointing. No info on Ivermectin as promised. As RM11 mentioned there were a lot of questions that could/should have been asked of Adam Hegi.

    The vids are coming across as more agenda driven than data driven.

    As I said I hate to say it since the whole pandemic series of vids has been very good.

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  • Fri, Jul 10, 2020 - 9:56am

    #4
    Helix

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    There're are 3rd and 4th ways...

    Regarding Dr. Martenson's comment in the video that there are only two ways to get this virus behind us, a vaccine or herd immunity...

    Forgive me for being ghoulish, but there is a 3rd way:  the virus eventually claims everyone who is susceptible, leaving those with natural resistance to the disease.  Perhaps this is a variant of "herd immunity", but not a variant that is pleasant to entertain.  If present figures are any indication, the disease would claim about 3 million people in the US, and about 75 million people worldwide.

    Unfortunately, I think this is at least as likely as either of the other two.  I have absolutely no doubt that this affliction is here to stay.

    That being the case, I think there's potentially a 4th way as well -- hydroxychloroquine + zinc (or ivermectin) taken as a prophylactic.  Teachers and school children, please line up at the door for your daily dose before entering.  Parents, if you object to your children taking this preventive measure, please be prepared to home school them.

    I am dismayed and discouraged that the official medical community seems determined to thwart any studies of this treatment option.  To the point that I am suspicious of its motives.  We are clearly on our own here, so I think it's time to take matters into our own hands.

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  • Fri, Jul 10, 2020 - 10:14am

    Island girl

    Island girl

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    Videos not as good?

    Perhaps it is difficult to prepare them with the same degree of thoroughness when there is so much work being done on the homestead? He also does podcasts on other topics. Perhaps he should reduce frequency of videos again.

    I sometimes give presentations and I know how many hours I spend for each minute of airtime. Dr. Martenson may be overextended.

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  • Fri, Jul 10, 2020 - 10:30am

    #6
    Korak291

    Korak291

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    Cheri video

    Chris, There wasn’t any factual info except their opinion or belief of what happened. We don’t even know if it was COVID and you sent info about their “go fund me page”. I’m sorry for what they are going through. But, I need to see facts. Is it a thing??? If the Honey Badger is so resourceful. How did no one else get it? Why didn’t they get a PCR test? An AB test after recovery vs. it’s a second infection. I’m disappointed in this video. It does not seem up and down. My view.

     

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  • Fri, Jul 10, 2020 - 11:30am

    DaveDD

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    Re: Could This Be ADE During A Second Illness?

    Hi dtrammel,

    Exactly my thought! An friend of a friend died in after a second infection with a different strain he got in Austria. En route to the hospital his lungs collapsed and he died of brain damage. He was very healthy: my own conclusion could be ADE. Which is suspected to be the main driver behind the second wave of the Spanish flu. I think it is very wise to assume that ADE could occur this fall and winter (maybe buy some extra vitamine C, D, NAC?).

    grts, Dave

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  • Fri, Jul 10, 2020 - 12:51pm

    #8
    James Wright

    James Wright

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    Magical Vaccine Unicorn

    Chris, could you look more into the assumption that we will get an effective vaccine? Right now it feels like a blind spot in your analysis. Given that vaccination history is replete with mistakes, errors, and damaged health of people taking them, what is the likelihood that we will get one that is both safe and effective? From what I read, it seems that coronaviruses are especially difficult to make vaccinations for (which is the reason we don't have a vaccination for the common cold).

    Thanks,

    James

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  • Fri, Jul 10, 2020 - 1:53pm

    DaveDD

    DaveDD

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    Vaccins

    Hi James,

    Why, Chris mentioned this seversl times? There have never been lasting vaccins against corona virusses, let alone against RNA virusses. Additionally, if the possibility of ADE is not excluded, I would be really, really wary of what Big Pharma, sorry, I mean our politicians, lobbyist, ehh, I mean journalists, and scientists, claim. As long as words like “could” and “may” appear you want to think about antifragile actions, especially in the light of local mutations and the current travel season (in Europe that is).

    https://www.nature.com/articles/d41587-020-00016-w

    https://advances.massgeneral.org/research-and-innovation/article.aspx?id=1186

    https://covid19.nj.gov/faqs/coronavirus-information/about-novel-coronavirus-2019/if-you-are-infected-again-would-the-second-infection-be-more-serious

    https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/journal-of-clinical-and-translational-science/article/potential-for-antibodydependent-enhancement-of-sarscov2-infection-translational-implications-for-vaccine-development/504FE38E2475590EFE93872BC6D67D3D

    Grts, Dave

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  • Fri, Jul 10, 2020 - 3:37pm

    #10
    jn20

    jn20

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    Second infections, could the D614G mutation be to blame?

    Do we have any information indicating if people are being infected by the same variant of the virus or if it is a new variant? As Chris has already mentioned multiple times, a mutation has occured in SARS-COV-2 which increase the infectivity of the virus. Perhaps an immune response against the original variant, is insuficient to prevent reinfection by the new one?

    If not we are screwed, unless we get a functional and safe vaccine. At least then we can keep immunizing at short intervals to keep people immunity high.

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  • Fri, Jul 10, 2020 - 4:02pm

    Mohammed Mast

    Mohammed Mast

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    Videos not as good?

    Sorry but you do not have to defend him or offer excuses.

    My philosophy is if you are going to do something do it well, or don't do it at all.

    Joshua Green made some criticisms earlier that had some validity. The latest videos offered assertions with no data. The interview functioned more as a platform for Chris to expound on his point of view. (not totally but more than enough). I did not pay for it so I am not up in arms by any means just noting some slippage from the previous excellent work. As noted important details were not talked about. Also the previous video mentioned Ivermectin works in the title yet was not addressed then ignored in the next one. Constructive criticism is important. My best friends are the ones who tell me when I am screwing up.

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  • Fri, Jul 10, 2020 - 5:50pm

    #12
    JWhite

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    2nd infections

    In addition to the idea that if one develops immunity, it doesn't last very long, and doesn't offer immunity to other clades / mutations of the virus, I'm wondering if it's possible that the virus can remain dormant after an infection, and become reactivated in future.  A while ago I posted this article from the SCMP which describes a peer reviewed study published in Cell Research, describing residual virus being found deep in the lungs of recovered patients, and some patients testing positive again after recovery:

    https://www.scmp.com/news/china/society/article/3082200/coronavirus-may-lurk-deep-lungs-after-patients-recover-study

     

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  • Fri, Jul 10, 2020 - 8:13pm

    Island girl

    Island girl

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    Not making excuses exactly, but putting a suggestion in context

    I understand all your points, MM, and I generally concur. My main point is that perhaps Dr. Martenson might be over-extended so it might be better to do the videos at a lower frequency. Just a suggestion to alter the approach so as to maintain the quality.

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  • Fri, Jul 10, 2020 - 8:20pm

    Island girl

    Island girl

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    @ JWhite regarding residual virus

    To your point, I seem to recall a gentleman on the Diamond Princess cruise ship who was quarantined in isolation for 40 odd days with no symptoms because evidently he kept shedding virus?

    I can't remember how I heard this, so I can find the source.

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  • Sat, Jul 11, 2020 - 3:14am

    #15

    sofistek

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    Cheri and Covid

    I'd like to echo Korak291's points that the info about Cheri didn't seem to go beyond opinion. As bad as the illness was, there was no mention of any test for Covid-19, nor was there more information about why the hospital thought her symptoms were not entirely genuine. Of course, there's no reason to think any of it is lies but we also don't know for certain that either of the two episodes was Covid-19, even though that seems to be the most likely explanation. Very odd that hubby and kids didn't appear to become ill, and that they weren't tested for Covid-19 either time. I would have thought that close contacts would be tested automatically (unless they refuse).

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  • Sat, Jul 11, 2020 - 8:03am

    Helix

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    Anecdotal, but all medical inquiry starts with anecdotal

    I've been following the conversation on Cheri's illness and whether Dr. Martenson was justified in devoting such a large portion of his video on it.  Here are my own views...

    First, regarding Cheri's case being anecdotal.  Well, yes, but almost all medical inquiries begin with anecdotal evidence.  How does one know what to look for without anecdotal evidence?  Double-blind, randomized, placebo-controlled trials are taken as the gold standard, but the fact of the matter is that all humans are different and such trials can only give statistical data, so even these don't necessarily apply to any individual.  Given this situation, I'm of the opinion that anecdotal evidence is of great medical value.

    Regarding the lack of a Covid-19 test in this case, this points up to me the disgraceful neglect that plagues our sick-care system.  The potential for this virus to spread to pandemic proportions has been known since at least last December, and we still don't have enough tests -- or unwilling to pay for them -- in June?  Perhaps Cheri didn't have medical insurance, and so diagnosis and treatment was denied?  This is a national disgrace, and the fact that the same people who allowed this to happen are still in charge is an even greater disgrace.  I see this neglect and malfeasance at all levels and in nearly all spheres of American life.  Literally, this country does not deserve to survive, and in its present form, it may not.

    Having said that, Cheri displayed the classic symptoms of Covid-19, and so I think it's safe to assume that she had this illness.  It's only one case, but it shows you what can happen, which should serve as an antidote to complacency.  For that reason, I thought the video was valuable.

     

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  • Sat, Jul 11, 2020 - 8:15am

    #17
    Gerrit de Wit

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    second infection or dormant first infection?

    Just wondered after watching the video whether this is a second infection, another strain, or the same infection that was dormant for some time. Some illnesses, like malaria, lyme, lupus are dormant for some time and then flare up again. And guess what, the treatment for lupus and malaria is hydroxychloroquine and in case of lyme there has been ilads guidelines where hcq was used in combination with azithromycine. Could not find the English version of the ILADS guidelines, this is  the Dutch version http://www.lymemed.nl/protocollen/schema.pdf

     

     

     

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  • Sat, Jul 11, 2020 - 9:16am

    #18

    Eannao

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    Herd Immunity - Dave or Chris... who's right?

    The question of herd immunity is a critical one. Chris seems to still be of the opinion that 60-70% seroprevalence is needed, whereas DaveFairtex put forward a strong case that only 15-20% is needed. I'd love to know Chris's take on this theory and perhaps some discourse between the two great men on the topic!!

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  • Sat, Jul 11, 2020 - 9:16am

    TurquoiseRose

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    2nd infection or dormant first infection

    All scenarios are possible.

    1. Second infection, antibodies or memory cells not able to fight off infection.

    2. First infection was a different strain from second

    3. Tissue sequestration of infection not sampled by swabs or blood, virus contues to replicate and reinfect other tissues.

    Does viral load play a part in this?

    ILADS 2014 treatment guidelines (English)

    https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1586/14787210.2014.940900

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  • Sat, Jul 11, 2020 - 9:25am

    TurquoiseRose

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    Herd Immunnity

    Both THEORIES are from MODELING.  And we know how well that has been going.

    1. 70% comes from vaccine model of pandemic cure

    2. 20-25% Comes from the theory with model that diffuse population variables reduces the number that is needed for herd immunity.  Superspreaders get out and infect everyone and as their contacts get sick and everybody else is social distancing, wearing masks, improving their health, etc

    "

    Individual variation in susceptibility or exposure to SARS-CoV-2 lowers the herd immunity threshold"

    https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.04.27.20081893v1.full.pdf

    • As SARS-CoV-2 spreads, susceptible subpopulations are depleted causing the rate of new cases to decline.
    • Variation in individual susceptibility or exposure to infection exacerbates this effect.
    • Frailer individuals + more susceptible or more exposed, have higher probabilities of infection. Depleting the susceptible, intensifies the deceleration in occurrence of new cases.
    • Eventually, susceptible numbers become low enough to prevent epidemic growth or, in other words, herd immunity is attained.
    • It is currently believed that herd immunity to SARS-CoV-2 requires 60-70% of the population to be immune.
    • Variation in susceptibility or exposure to infection can reduce these estimates.

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  • Sat, Jul 11, 2020 - 11:33am

    Grover

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    This Article Supports DaveFairtex's view.

    Eannao wrote:

    The question of herd immunity is a critical one. Chris seems to still be of the opinion that 60-70% seroprevalence is needed, whereas DaveFairtex put forward a strong case that only 15-20% is needed. I'd love to know Chris's take on this theory and perhaps some discourse between the two great men on the topic!!

    Here's an article on Zerohedge authored by Mike Whitney via The Unz Review: https://www.zerohedge.com/political/whitney-looks-sweden-was-right-after-all

    The author is obviously in DaveFairtex's camp. He points out several examples to support his thesis. The one that struck a chord with me was about The Diamond Princess cruise ship. Remember that it had early infections and was a floating human scale Petri dish. In a way, it was the first real test of the virus' infective capabilities in a controlled environment. Yet, only about 17% of the passengers (and crew) became infected. (Remember that cruise liners cater to older people so the majority were older and theoretically more susceptible.) With air circulation systems sharing ventilation and pushing the virus into every cabin, why didn't more people get infected?

    He also says that we shouldn't be concerned as much with increasing cases of Covid. Instead, we should be focusing on deaths due to Covid as that is a better barometer of the future trend. It's good for herd immunity if the number of cases increase. It shouldn't be as big of a deal if the death rate decreases. He said, "The trajectory of infections was mapped out long ago by UK epidemiologist and statistician, William Farr." Then he included this snippet from another source (bolding his.)

    “Farr shows us that once peak infection has been reached then it will roughly follow the same symmetrical pattern on the downward slope. However, under testing and variations in testing regimes means we have no way of knowing when the peak of infections occurred. In this situation, we should use the data on deaths to predict the peak. There is a predicted time lag from infection to COVID deaths of approximately 21 to 28 days.

    Once peak deaths have been reached we should be working on the assumption that the infection has already started falling in the same progressive steps. …

    Farr, also illustrated that those who are the most ‘mortal die out’, and in a pandemic are those in most need of shielding….(So, Farr saw the wisdom of the Swedish approach a full 180 years ago!)

    In the midst of a pandemic, it is easy to forget Farr’s Law, and think the number infected will just keep rising, it will not. Just as quick as measures were introduced to prevent the spread of infection we need to recognize the point at which to open up society and also the special measures due to ‘density’ that require special considerations. But most of all we must remember the message Farr left us: what goes up must come down.”

    (“COVID-19: William Farr’s way out of the Pandemic”, The Centre for Evidence-Based Medicine)

    Viruses have to infect living creatures in order to survive and propagate. Once a living creature (with a functioning immune system) becomes immune to the virus, the virus has lost a potential host ... unless it can mutate enough to bypass the immune system. As such, we may be subject to continuous infections from mutated coronavirus. If the body doesn't recognize the virus, it is essentially a new infective agent - even though it is closely related to the original virus.

    Will the original virus cause a second wave of infections once herd immunity has been established? That is highly doubtful. It is more likely that we'll get another wave from a copy of the original virus that has changed enough to be unrecognized by the immune system. Once about 15-20% of the herd have been subjected to this virus version, it too will need to mutate or die out.

    Grover

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  • Sat, Jul 11, 2020 - 12:02pm

    #22
    MKI

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    It’s time we start emotionally preparing we may be living with covid-19…forever:

    I've never understood why people have such a hard time groking we cannot fix all risk. Fact: We get old. We get weak. We die. So what?

    But if you are worried: what CAN we do? We can eat zero processed foods & lost of wild meat & organic vegs. We can have a waist-to-height ratio of 0.45. We can sleep 8+ hrs. We can get lots of sun. We can Squat/Bench Press/Deadlift 500#. We can run 2 miles in 15 min. And we can do all these even at 70 yo. This sure beats the hell out of stressing about a virus! Focus on health, and then quit living in fear.

    In fact, we are now seeing convincing evidence of people contracting covid-19 more than once. If indeed the case, that suggests we may never be able to reach herd immunity.

    This is where the "it's just the flu, bro" guys are dead right. It is just like the flu in that there will probably never be much of a vaccine, and the best defense is NOT to hole up or wear masks or panic. Rather, the best defense is to be VERY FIT and learn to live with this new reality. If it's not C19, it will be something else. And the best test? To make sure you are healthy enough that you NEVER get the flu, no matter how many hands you shake or which party you go to. YMMV.

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  • Sat, Jul 11, 2020 - 12:35pm

    #23
    Lineman7

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    How to Clean N95 Masks by the Inventor

    These recommendations are slightly different than I last saw on PP. Sorry if its already been posted. Note section on keeping masks 6" from hot metal.

    https://www.jem-journal.com/article/S0736-4679(20)30369-3/fulltext

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  • Sat, Jul 11, 2020 - 1:33pm

    Kathy

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    Kathy said:

    I have considered that Covid 19 might be the new common cold.  Since kids either don’t get it or don’t get sick from it, is it possible they are building immunity?  Just like we all did when we were five to the existing cold viruses.   Once the young people grow up will this be just another cold virus floating around.

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  • Sun, Jul 12, 2020 - 7:46pm

    #25
    MayS

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    Ivermectin was again mentioned briefly

    I really want to know more about Ivermectin, which was in the previous video's title yet only mentioned once. In this video, again, it was mentioned once, but no info at all. Please tell us what you know about Ivermectin! Thanks.

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  • Sun, Jul 12, 2020 - 9:54pm

    Rootman

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    Ivermectin = pseudo vax?

    I 'd like to think so!

    So I have adopted the protocol used in 3rd world countries for prophylaxis against parasitic infections: a yearly 150 mg dose of ivermectin (in my country drops from the on line vet store).

    I still were a mask in crowded places, but am much more confident when someone bursts out coughing or suddenly collapses in front of me in the store (both have happened the past months).

    There needs to be big time research into this method, as HCQ, ivermectin and Artemisia protocols could enable society to start function near normally.

    I could be wrong of course, but feel I gained many more opportunities to function socially in a relatively smart way.

     

    If I would be infected anyway, I would likely get only a very mild form. I was reluctant to take the ivermectin for a few months, because I was afraid it would prevent me from becoming immune. But since the antibodies don't seem to last I worry about that less.

    I might even continue this E 13.-/ year prophylaxis indefinitely for the rest of my life, as there are zero side effects. Of course I keep my D and zinc levels topped up and have a small home pharmacy with vitamins, minerals and herbal extracts like elder and artemisia annua and absinthum (still growing strong, young plants) .

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  • Mon, Jul 13, 2020 - 1:09am

    #27
    garrymorrow

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    Relapse?

    Hi Chris:

    The reinfection MAY be the relapse of the initial infection. More proper science needs to be done.

    Some people are immune/near immune, others (increacing with age) less immune.

    There are other pathways to immunity other than just antibodies, the cellular responce LEARNS from the antibody responce.....(no need to waste energy forever producing antibodies.)

    Keep topping up your immune system...this is the honey badger virus after all. It has a natural ability to attack nearly every system in our body.

    A rushed virus cultured in animal tissue could make things worse....

    ANTIBODIES are only part of our beautiful immune system....keep taking the vitamin C, especially if you have any health concerns.

     

    good luck

     

    Garry

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  • Mon, Jul 13, 2020 - 3:25am

    #28

    sofistek

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    Immunity could be lost in months

    Another study suggests that most cases could lose immunity within two or three months. It's becoming likely that herd immunity can't be reached or that a continual vaccine booster would be needed (if a vaccine is ever found).

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  • Mon, Jul 13, 2020 - 5:34am

    #29
    Chris Martenson

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    Re: Relapse?

    As was true in January and February, we're having to operate here in July on incomplete information concerning re-infections.  Why?  Simple numbers.  If it takes 3-6 months for one's antibodies to wane enough for re-infection to be 'a thing' AND someone has to be exposed again (when a low percentage of the population is infected at all), then we're scraping around in a very shallow barrel of possible subjects.

    Consider that in March 23rd there were only 100k that had 'recovered.'

    No, there's nothing special about March 23rd, I was just trying to find out when 100k people had recovered so we could start the clock for the pool of people who might be candidates for re-infection here ~4 months later.

    Presumably that 100k cohort is much less susceptible to being re-infected.  First because some number of them have long(er) lasting immunity.  Second because we might guess they'd be a bit more careful like this person:

    That poor person!  Took a rare chance and rolled snake eyes.

    So if we estimate that anybody's odds of being infected at all during a 4 month window are in the vicinity of 5% (Spain's numbers), and that at least 50% of the formerly infected are immune (probably higher, but I'm being conservative) and that the formerly infected are a further 50% more careful than the average person, the math says 100k x 0.05 x 0.5 x 0.5 = 1250.

    We're going to be searching for a relatively small group of people here in the US.

    Those stories are surprisingly easy to find.  Here's one, with testing.

    My patient caught Covid-19 twice. So long to herd immunity hopes.

    Emerging cases of Covid-19 reinfection suggest herd immunity is wishful thinking.

    By D. Clay Ackerly  Jul 12, 2020

    “Wait. I can catch Covid twice?” my 50-year-old patient asked in disbelief. It was the beginning of July, and he had just tested positive for SARS-CoV-2, the virus that causes Covid-19, for a second time — three months after a previous infection.

    While there’s still much we don’t understand about immunity to this new illness, a small but growing number of cases like his suggest the answer is “yes.”

    Covid-19 may also be much worse the second time around. During his first infection, my patient experienced a mild cough and sore throat. His second infection, in contrast, was marked by a high fever, shortness of breath, and hypoxia, resulting in multiple trips to the hospital.

    Recent reports and conversations with physician colleagues suggest my patient is not alone. Two patients in New Jersey, for instance, appear to have contracted Covid-19 a second time almost two months after fully recovering from their first infection. Daniel Griffin, a physician and researcher at Columbia in New York, recently described a case of presumed reinfection on the This Week in Virology podcast.

    It is possible, but unlikely, that my patient had a single infection that lasted three months. Some Covid-19 patients (now dubbed “long haulers”) do appear to suffer persistent infections and symptoms.

    My patient, however, cleared his infection — he had two negative PCR tests after his first infection — and felt healthy for nearly six weeks.

    The emerging long-term complications of Covid-19, explained
    I believe it is far more likely that my patient fully recovered from his first infection, then caught Covid-19 a second time after being exposed to a young adult family member with the virus. He was unable to get an antibody test after his first infection, so we do not know whether his immune system mounted an effective antibody response or not.

    Regardless, the limited research so far on recovered Covid-19 patients shows that not all patients develop antibodies after infection. Some patients, and particularly those who never develop symptoms, mount an antibody response immediately after infection only to have it wane quickly afterward — an issue of increasing scientific concern.

    What’s more, repeat infections in a short time period are a feature of many viruses, including other coronaviruses. So if some Covid-19 patients are getting reinfected after a second exposure, it would not be particularly unusual.

    In general, the unknowns of immune responses to SARS-CoV-2 currently outweigh the knowns. We do not know how much immunity to expect once someone is infected with the virus, we do not know how long that immunity may last, and we do not know how many antibodies are needed to mount an effective response. And although there is some hope regarding cellular immunity (including T-cell responses) in the absence of a durable antibody response, the early evidence of reinfections puts the effectiveness of these immune responses in question as well.

    Also troubling is that my patient’s case, and others like his, may dim the hope for natural herd immunity. Herd immunity depends on the theory that our immune systems, once exposed to a pathogen, will collectively protect us as a community from reinfection and further spread.

    So, yes, a second infection is 'a thing.'

    However I am, again, operating on thin information and making my best assessment of what's available to analyze.  Such is the nature of the honey badger virus.

    One of these days I'll get something big wrong, but so far my ability to parse the early data has been accurate.

    The reason this is so important is because of the fact that my country has gone bonkers and is unable to process the logic behind masks or 'endure' a proper lockdown period.  You know, gray hair roots, and the need to attend a buffet or a Disney ride and all that.

    Which means herd immunity is the only way out of this nightmare.  And reinfections imply that herd immunity isn't going to be 'a thing' which then implies that we either live with the nightmare possibility of being laid out by a super flu that can whollop us 2 times per year with the potential for life-long damage, or we actually go hard and lockdown for long enough to beat this thing (like China, Taiwan, Hong Kong, and so many other countries have actually done).

    Either way, the hit to the economy hasn't really begun.  If what I've laid out for reinfections is actually 'a thing.'  Which I think it is.

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  • Mon, Jul 13, 2020 - 6:29am

    Mohammed Mast

    Mohammed Mast

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    Spot on

    I just had this conversation with a family member. He said (hopefully) that we may have immunity from having had a cold. I told him anything and I mean anything we say about this thing right now is largely speculation.

    " get back with me in a year or two and we will know a lot more"

    People just do not realize we are in the 2nd inning of a game that just might go into extra innings.

    As far as your country going bonkers it should be remembered that Amerikaans are the only people on the planet who will stand in front of a microwave and scream at it because it takes too long.

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  • Mon, Jul 13, 2020 - 6:35am

    #31

    davefairtex

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    living with SC2 forever

    We probably are just starting out with this SC2 thing.  Then again, HIV used to be a death sentence back in the 1980s.  It isn't anymore.  Neither will SC2 be, for the most part, a year or so down the road.  We have so many hints about great treatments.  They will - probably - be well known by then.  Standard of care will nail it quickly in the outpatient setting.  "COVID kits" might sell for $50.

    Definitely, avoid getting it now if you have risk; it also looks thoroughly beatable if you treat it early.  Terrain matters.  It is too soon to tell if herd immunity (which I believe is 10-20%, depending on the population configuration) lasts forever, or just for this iteration.

    Even in this first year of cluelessness, SC2 isn't cancer, and its not heart disease.  And in a year or two, it will drop below the radar because we'll know how to treat it by then.  "Oh yeah, that was bad initially.  I remember - everyone was scared.  And the news even told us that hydroxycholoroquine would kill you!"

    And FWIW, "big data" tells us that reinfections aren't the standard thing.  If it were common, we wouldn't have declining cases and deaths in so many places.  Especially Sweden.  Can anyone tell me why the decline in both cases and especially deaths if "reinfections" were common?  Especially with such a high R0?

     

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  • Mon, Jul 13, 2020 - 7:05am

    #32
    Rootman

    Rootman

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    So pseudo- immunity might be the solution!

    The efforts in Bangladesh, India, Madagascar and some Latin countries might lead to some near fool proof prophylaxis protocols: Off- patent drugs, complemented with some common OTC supplements or some traditional as well as new innovative herbal preparations. This goes beyond preparing the terrain; if the rumors are even slightly true, protocols could be developed which might lower the R-0, the morbidity, and the mortality in a spectacular fashion!

     

    If it holds true, completely new models or scenarios would have to be written, and policy as well.

     

    I think lots of research needs to be dedicated to evaluate the possibility of this pseudo-vax/ 'immunity'.  Even if it would be only partial, it still looks like a silver bullet to me.

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  • Mon, Jul 13, 2020 - 7:25am

    #33
    DanielleW

    DanielleW

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    Joined: Aug 16 2016

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    I loved this video!!

    Chris,

    I loved this video and especially that you interviewed the husband (Adam). I don’t trust the media at all but I trust you because I know how throughly you research everything. You have also been spot on with everything right along and what you are saying just makes sense.  If you think about basic PPE from a medical perspective, masks for everyone is a no brainer. Pretty straight forward.
    At any rate, it was very interesting to see the interview - you could see the pain in his eyes and worry on his face. In my opinion, Cheri was the picture of health before getting infected, so the fact that she’s had such a horrible time with the disease is very scary. They will definitely be in my prayers!

    Thanks again for shaking it up.... I think we need to see the human side sometimes and not just the data all the time.
    thanks!

    danielle

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  • Mon, Jul 13, 2020 - 8:01am

    #34
    kunga

    kunga

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    Posts: 342

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    Victim mode

    Yes, more information is coming out about second infections.  But also, everyday more information in the alternative medical media about prevention and treatment is coming out.  Dr. Mercola, Dr. Rhonda Patrick, Medcram, etc.

    Are any of these second infection patients doing anything to boost their immune systems or treat the infection?  Nothing is ever mentioned.  It would even be nice if their doctors would even get a clue and treat them with HCQ and zinc, for gosh sakes.  I bet these people are just following their old bad lifestyles, eating bad fats and carbs, etc. And not addressing their deficiencies of Zn, vitamin C, vitamin D, glutathion, omega 3 fats, etc.

    If you continue to repeat the same habits that lead to you getting infected, the first time,  then expect a different outcome, you are a fool.

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  • Mon, Jul 13, 2020 - 8:36am

    #35
    DLWELD

    DLWELD

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    4+

    the WHO comes around

    I see the WHO (Dr. Tedros) has just been quoted:

    “If basics are not followed, the only way this pandemic is going to go, it is going to get worse and worse and worse. But it does not have to be this way.”

    That last phrase - where have I heard that before? Take a bow Chris.

     

     

     

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  • Mon, Jul 13, 2020 - 9:08am

    #36
    Mary59

    Mary59

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    I liked the video also

    Good Morning to All,

    I am most grateful for all of PP videos and articles.  To me, both hard evidence and story - telling/anecdotal are important.  Story telling is even perhaps inherent within humanity.

    The science based information is wonderful as that is what is so lacking in the general arena, and also what is needed to make a case to others, for writing an article as references and so on.    Thus it is absolutely vital.   (Assuming the numbers are generated with integrity based on logic etc otherwise it is garbage in-garbage out.)

    To me, the anecdotal, story telling-  showing what happens to real people with faces,  speaks to my heart and mind together simultaneously.

    It also makes me more fully realize that this can happen to me, to my family to my friends too.  Hits closer to home for me anyhow.  Get's me moving faster too. Seems somehow more real.

    Of all the things I have read and viewed over months, the things which haunt me are a UK nurse crying on video, the young Chinese man telling us how serious it all was at the outset, risking his life if caught perhaps,  the Italian hospital wards when it was terrible there and the other videos from real people.

    All the other graphs and numbers even though I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that they are representing critical information in the best way possible,  seem way down in the recesses of my mind jumbled together like overcooked spaghetti.

    Thank you.

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  • Mon, Jul 13, 2020 - 9:44am

    #37
    Mohammed Mast

    Mohammed Mast

    Status: Silver Member

    Joined: May 17 2017

    Posts: 632

    1+

    Ivermectin in Peru

    https://www.trialsitenews.com/how-a-grass-roots-health-movement-led-to-acceptance-of-ivermectin-as-a-covid-19-therapy-in-peru/

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  • Wed, Jul 15, 2020 - 8:39am

    MKI

    MKI

    Status: Member

    Joined: Jan 12 2009

    Posts: 194

    One heck of an interview!

    I want to comment on how good Chris' interview was. If only we had a news media that could interview people like this!

    I learned more about how C19 is effecting people in the real world from this interview than all the other news media combined. A really skilled interview. Thanks again.

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  • Thu, Jul 16, 2020 - 6:45pm

    MayS

    MayS

    Status: Member

    Joined: Mar 17 2020

    Posts: 8

    MayS said:

    What is the dosage of Ivermectin that you're taking?

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  • Fri, Jul 17, 2020 - 8:23am

    #40
    tbp

    tbp

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    Joined: Apr 12 2020

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    tbp said:

    I might be wrong but this (the case of the 41yo woman with a "very healthy" lifestyle) looks like a case of veganism malnutrition. The hint I'm going by is the "clean proteins".

    The belief that a vegan diet is "very healthy" comes from a loving mindset in most cases, but in most cases our bodies will have a hard time staying healthy after long-term veganism. You can witness this yourself by following the vegan Youtube scene, where vegans get sicker and sicker and they can't figure out why until they finally give in and eat meat, and then their health radically improves within a single day. It's because the body is being starved of usable/absorbable protein and saturated fat (the latter can be largely corrected by consuming coconut oil). "Clean protein" might mean unabsorbable or unusable plant proteins; it's "clean" only in the sense that a large animal wasn't killed (but small ones were unless it was grown in your own garden or local small farm without pesticides).

    The other big question would be her vitamin D levels... They had "locked down in their bubble" for a week before she got symptoms, but before that she had presumably been getting significant sunshine exposure... or maybe she believes you should stay away from the Sun as it can cause skin cancer? Crazy as that is, many people still believe it. Same with avoiding saturated fat and cholesterol. Who knows, without providing more detailed information, we can only guess.

    Another important question is whether she recently injected herself with aluminum and other ingredients contained in vaccines, such as a flu shot.

    He says they "took every precaution", but they don't mention vitamin D among them, nor zinc or zinc+ionophore, nor vitamin C... If you don't take those, and especially if you're vitamin D deficient (which you'll likely be if you've been locked inside for weeks), then you should frankly expect to remain vulnerable to the virus. You can't really build any immunity if your vitamin D level is below ~30ng/ml. If it's >40ng/ml, that's where it seems the asymptomatics start. Optimal health is 60-80ng/ml.

    Apparently American adults get 2-4 colds a year on average, and children 6-8 colds per year -- that's insane, easily preventable in most cases with basic supplementation and vaccine adjuvants avoidance.

    Why is Chris still saying "No, we don't know why some people have tough run with SARS2 while others have practically no ill effects at all."? How is it even a mystery? It seems that to Chris, vitamin D is an afterthought like HCQ is to Big Pharma and their minion "health authorities"...

    Chris says: "If - and that's a very big IF - antibodies don't confer long-lasting protection, we'll be dealing with SARS2 forever as an endemic disease." - Having or not having antibodies is not what protects you. It's nutrient (building blocks) sufficiency and lack of toxins (such as injected aluminum) status that does, whether antibodies are produced or not. Why would asymptomatic or mild cases even necessarily need to develop antibodies? Why shouldn't other defenses (such as T lymphocytes, interferons, natural killer cells, ROS) suffice? In many cases, when the building blocks (nutrients) are lacking, it should be expected that antibodies were never developed due to immunoincompetence, so testing negative is not by itself an indication of a rapid loss of antibodies. And regarding testing positive for antibodies then testing negative weeks later... Should antibodies be floating around the blood in the body indefinitely? Isn't it more about cellular memory being able to more easily produce such antibodies if needed again?

    We even have pre-existing immunity to some degree from exposure to other coronaviruses: STUDIES: 60% of people naturally RESISTANT to SARS-COV2 - They “found that Sars-Cov-2-specific antibodies only appear in the most severe cases, or about 1 out of 5.”

    Maybe you will be one of the people who still hasn't figured out how vitamin D (and glutathione/NAC and vitamin C) protects you when/if a 2nd wave hits, and you're taking an almost useless 1000 IU/day dose, but then it'll be primarily on YOU, not on the virus or some perceived "health authority"'s bad or lacking recommendations.

    Maybe Chris or someone could forward this post, or these ideas, to Adam and Cheri?

    Anyway, if you learned one important thing, that's to not trust doctors or hospital protocols or presumed "health authorities", and to do your own research!

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  • Sat, Jul 18, 2020 - 8:52am

    #41
    nexus

    nexus

    Status: Member

    Joined: Jul 18 2020

    Posts: 1

    nexus said:

    One possibility that is occuring to me regarding re-infection is I am lead to wonder if they are genuinely being re-infected, or have they possibly been infected only once, the infection has receded but maintained a low viral load for awhile, and then flared up again?

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