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    Will We See A New Covid-19 Spike Soon?

    Chris estimates we'll know within the next 3-5 weeks
    by Adam Taggart

    Wednesday, June 10, 2020, 8:53 AM

State lockdowns lifting across the US. businesses and public spaces opening back up. Mass protests bringing thousands together in close quarters.

Will we see a resurgence in covid-19 infections as a result? Unknown at this moment, but we shouldn’t have long to wait. Chris predicts we’ll know one way or the other within the next 3 to 5 weeks.

As the nation waits, we’ll undoubtedly see more symptoms of the social rifts that the pandemic has exacerbated. Trust in authority has been badly shaken: from the response from the Administration/CDC/WHO, to the “garbage science” tilting the scales towards Big Pharma’s interests, to the current protests against the police, to the deeply unfair repercussions of the Federal Reserve’s rescue of the rich — the populace is waking up to the fact that our “leaders'” actions are out of integrity with the public welfare.

Where will this growing unrest take us? Unknown at this point, but similar to covid-19, we may not have long to wait to find out.

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66 Comments

  • Wed, Jun 10, 2020 - 9:56am

    #1
    taz1999

    taz1999

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    Joined: Feb 25 2020

    Posts: 47

    5

    Masks and otherwise intelligent people

    https://www.unz.com/akarlin/efficacy-of-masks-confirmed/

    So far as I've seen no one in mask denial has ever shown any data,  only assertions.  A writer I generally follow was calling people not wearing a mask "heroic".  I guess this is the same heroic as a policeman not wearing a bullet vest and me not using seat belts.

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  • Wed, Jun 10, 2020 - 10:18am

    #2
    Mike from Jersey

    Mike from Jersey

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    Joined: Jan 22 2018

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    12

    Pharma Company Fraud

    If the story put forth in the link below is true, there should be indictments.

    It is alleged that the Lancet article on hydroxychloroquin, later retracted, was simply a fraud committed by Big Pharma on the Lancet. A Lancet official is quoted as saying:

    "Now we are not going to be able to, basically, if this continues, publish any more clinical research data because the pharmaceutical companies are so financially powerful today, and are able to use such methodologies, as to have us accept papers which are apparently methodologically perfect, but which, in reality, manage to conclude what they want them to conclude," said Lancet EIC Richard Horton.

    https://www.zerohedge.com/markets/big-pharma-criminal-influence-research-exposed-secret-recording-lancet-and-nejm-editors

     

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  • Wed, Jun 10, 2020 - 10:19am

    #3
    yagasjai

    yagasjai

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    8

    Typo!

    I think you mean 3-5 weeks, not 305 weeks! But maybe 305 just to be safe? 🙂 Feel free to remove this post once that is corrected.

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  • Wed, Jun 10, 2020 - 11:48am

    #4
    Klaatu

    Klaatu

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    Seasonality

    I've had two thoughts about this subject of "seasonality" which is raised occasionally in the media and "expert" prognostications.  As if we've been waiting for a summertime lull in new cases.

    I need to study more about the flu transmissions, and why it seems to go into remission, and this of course is why the question is applied to Covid.

    We all saw those global maps which at first showed the most affected zones in the temperate latitudes, and the latency figures for similar viruses to reside on various surfaces.  Some of us put our masks, groceries and other purchases in 9-day isolation bins just in case surface particles had entered our homes.

    But if someone breathes a load of inoculum into your breathing passages, it isn't going to matter what climate zone you're in, is it?  Maybe the particles will catch some humidity, travel less distance, and fall to the floor sooner than in a cooler environment?  But human to human transmission seems to be the main event.

    So, to me, the idea of seasonality depends mostly on a longer surface survival time of virus particles in a cool, dry climate, and even that ends after a short time period, certainly not two or three months.  And depends on later conveyance by hand to another's facial orifices, right?  (Chris's admonitions had me breaking the face-touching habit almost immediately.  Thanks to him for removing that area of anxiety!)

    Seasonality, whenever mentioned, still baffles me.

    And then people raise the suggestion that the serious outbreak in Brazil somehow disproves seasonality, because it is seen mostly as a tropical climate.  No, that can't be it, if human to human transmission is the mechanism in the highly touch-oriented cultures of Latin America.  The two modes of transmission can operate separately, or in parallel, under differing geographies and cultures, without one disproving the other.  That's just lazy logic.

    But then, the other question about it is the idea that it is harbored in the Southern Hemisphere and somehow migrates northward in the Fall.  Huh?

    First of all, South Africa and Brazil are hardly wintry climates to begin with. New Zealand has cleared its cases, and I doubt will be inviting visitors back very soon.  Chile is having a bad outbreak, Argentina and Uruguay less so, Australia as well, and the "wintry" zones of those countries are hardly populated.

    So are the forecasters of "seasonality"  anticipating a large tourist influx from Chile and South Africa, and wouldn't these be flights that would be monitored severely in a milder  pandemic period?  If there was any truth before to this South-North reinfection as to the flu viruses, it still has to involve people-to-people transmission, and world travel now has been nearly stopped.

    Is this verified as the normal flu transmission scenario?  I just don't see who is harboring these viruses for later spread.

    If the normal flu mutates, and takes off again in the cooler season, then that is a side input from an already localized source, isn't it?  Not an re-introduction from down Southwards.

    In my first couple years visiting Central America, I got sick three times, up to a week like a normal flu.  Maybe one additional time in the dozen years since.  Immunity, I assume.  But that is the local semi-tropical climate. No souvenirs to bring home.

    Maybe 20% or less of humanity lives south of the Equator, and much fewer of those in temperate zones of seasonality.  I just wonder if it is sloppy scientific assumption that ascribes this fact of geography to the suspicion of seasonality?  The combination and promulgation of these ideas of seasonality seem to be possibly veering into the realm of popularized junk science.  But I would welcome further explanation.

    Maybe I'll be less lazy and explore my own questions later, but I'm more curious about other things at the moment.

    I guess a lot of this, though, falls under the "Second Wave" speculation, so I'm guessing we'll be hearing more about whether and how this might occur.

     

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  • Wed, Jun 10, 2020 - 12:47pm

    #5
    green_achers

    green_achers

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    WHO, or lazy media?

    This author makes a good point that the latest snafu with the WHO is actually a misrepresentation of what Ms. Van Kerkhove said. So, while that organization might have a lot to answer for, this might not be one of them.

    https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2020/6/9/1951806/-People-without-symptoms-can-definitely-spread-COVID-19-nothing-has-changed

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  • Wed, Jun 10, 2020 - 1:54pm

    #6
    VegasJim

    VegasJim

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    12

    When do we call it the mask box?

    Today, I was sitting in the Sam's club parking lot...........wondering if we have done all we can do to get ready for the next wave (both on a personal level and as a community).  Las Vegas was spared for the most part.  Why were we not one of the metropolitan dumpster fires on the first round?  With the nature of the CV and Vegas culture, we should have been.  Now we are opening the casinos back up..how big will the jump be?  Occupied hospital beds and ICU spots are relatively low number for now....

    But my big question is when do we start calling the glove box in vehicles the mask box?

    Cheers,

    Jim

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  • Wed, Jun 10, 2020 - 4:07pm

    #7
    Hladini

    Hladini

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    9

    Never Disappointed

    Another ball park knock out.   It never occurred to me that the eye injuries were actually aimed for.  I'm not a gun person and just automatically assumed the eye shots were random accidents.

    Now I'm wondering how many rubber-bullet-eye-injuries have been reported across the country?  I know about police brutality, but shooting people in the eyes on purpose?  Scary.

    As for those lousy studies in the  Lancet, that's nothing new, and the harm coming from it by not treating Covid19 patients with HCQ + Zinc timely is a drop in the bucket compared to the harm caused by the CDC vaccine mandates in this  country and across the globe.  https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/schedules/hcp/imz/child-adolescent.html

    Just imagine owning a product that every single person in the country was mandated to take multiple times throughout that person's minority, where you did not have to advertise your product,  where you could not be sued in a court of law if your product hurt someone (562 U.S. 233(2011), and where any claims for harm by your product are paid by tax payers and only under very narrow circumstances?

    Welcome to Big Pharma's vaccine industry.

    What did Charlie Munger say?

    Big Pharma is also the reason we have shit for news because they lobbied for the right to advertise directly to the consumer.  Now, because of its deep pockets, Big Pharma  controls the media's content upon threat of de-advertising/de-funding and slander lawsuits.

    Big Pharma also pretty much owns and operates, determines the curriculum, for most medical schools............... or that funding could be diverted somewhere else.

    Junk science?  Par for the course.  These journals cannot function without Big Pharma's advertising dollars and the editors are either part of the revolving door phenomenon or are threatened with pulling advertising funding.

    Big Pharma will ruin people personally if the bottom line is threatened.  Research Dr. Andrew Wakefield - outside the Matrix.

    This is what you'll find inside the Matrix: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_Wakefield

     

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  • Wed, Jun 10, 2020 - 4:27pm

    #8
    s2c

    s2c

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    s2c said:

    Hi Chris

    Have you done a review on this Blood Type A finding?

    https://www.news-medical.net/news/20200603/Blood-group-type-may-affect-susceptibility-to-COVID-19-respiratory-failure.aspx

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  • Wed, Jun 10, 2020 - 5:07pm

    Janie-em

    Janie-em

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    Mr. Horton, Welcome to the party pal.

    Thank you for this article. Uh, it's hard to tell if this guy is really this ignorant or just playing dumb. I'd guess the latter, since the story became international news that they got caught publishing crap. But I'm sure it's been happening for years, he's just trying to save face.

    Corruption of scientific research by Big Pharma has been pretty well known for a couple of decades now. I have corresponded with several people who, like me, got out of the industry because it was endemic in the field.

    In fact, the more I think about it, Horton is just as corrupt as the rest of them. I would guess that he has accepted many favors, steak dinners, concert tickets, box seats at sports stadiums, and paid vacations from Big Pharma sales reps. I don't doubt he has a very fat bank account as well. Investigative journalism is dead. We should have seen expose stories of the fat cats in science research and publications like the Lancet profiting off of the graft of the pharmaceutical companies everywhere. F.U. Horton.

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  • Wed, Jun 10, 2020 - 6:24pm

    Mike from Jersey

    Mike from Jersey

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    Replying to Mr. Horton, Welcome to the party pal.

    Horton's statement was made to someone at the New England Journal of Medicine.

    He really should have been talking to the police.

     

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  • Wed, Jun 10, 2020 - 6:34pm

    #11
    Mohammed Mast

    Mohammed Mast

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    5

    My County

    I live in the SE. My state has had the best numbers all along. My county has had very good numbers. The state is experiencing a large spike. My county is leading that spike. 1.5 weeks ago we had 114 cases total. Since then we have seen an increase of over 10x.

    Talking about a 2nd wave here seems premature. We are just now having our first wave. I don't go out much but it seems a lot of people are not wearing masks. I get the impression people are "over it". The local college has not announced anything about classes but a prof I know has been told to prepare for both face to face and online classes.

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  • Wed, Jun 10, 2020 - 6:53pm

    #12
    Mohammed Mast

    Mohammed Mast

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    3

    Not Just Rubber Bullets

    There is a report that an OSU student died after the protests in Columbus. It is possible it was due to tear gas. It is an innocuous name for a dangerous chemical weapon. (we blew up Iraq for supposedly using chemical weapons)

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8400925/Ohio-student-22-dies-two-days-teargassed-pepper-sprayed-George-Floyd-protest.html   

    It does not just cause "tears"

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tear_gas

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  • Wed, Jun 10, 2020 - 7:14pm

    Mysterymet

    Mysterymet

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    Mysterymet said:

    When you go through military boot camp you are put into a gas chamber with CS gas (tear gas). Your eyes water, you snot up and it makes some people puke but healthy people don’t die from it. It is NOT a pleasant experience and I would not want to have that experience again however, it is nowhere close to real chemical weapons like VX, mustard gas, and other nasty things created by humans.

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  • Wed, Jun 10, 2020 - 7:21pm

    Mohammed Mast

    Mohammed Mast

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    Tear gas

    https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/08/us/military-tear-gas-protesters-trnd/index.html

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  • Wed, Jun 10, 2020 - 7:51pm

    #15

    LesPhelps

    Status: Silver Member

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    11

    People are misbehaving on both sides of this conflict

    After two days of marching, rioting, looting and vandalizing on State Street in Madison, a poll of store owners was taken.  40 of the 140 stores polled said that the vandalism and looting was the final nail in the coffin lid.  They do not expect to reopen.

    This can’t be an isolated phenomenon.  A lot of jobs are going to go away permanently due to the riots.

    I guess I don’t expect balanced reporting on this.  It’s just disappointing.

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  • Wed, Jun 10, 2020 - 8:11pm

    Mohammed Mast

    Mohammed Mast

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    Sorry to hear that

    I love State St. Madison is or was an awesome town

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  • Thu, Jun 11, 2020 - 1:45am

    French connexion

    French connexion

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    Dear Mike

    I had posted on PP the video (ie same one) that Zerohedge used in your reference

    This is a former minister of health, and a doctor - I don't question his integrity.

    My point - he never says WHEN he heard this quote from Richard Horton. It could have been several years ago, or someone told him about the "conversation". Perhaps now it is official - I do not know.

    My unease comes from a post published here, gets read, and used again to reinforce our premises - if so we start acting like the guys (Big Pharma) who we want to "finger" - not good on our part.

    Just a thought that crossed my mind - as long as it is Douste-Blazy who is referenced then we are not inferencing anything on our own.

    It does not change what we all agree on - that Lancet should never have given this study credibility by publishing it.

    Taken from the same interview: https://www.bfmtv.com/mediaplayer/video/hydrxychloroquine-l-ancien-ministre-de-la-sante-philippe-douste-blazy-explique-pourquoi-il-remet-en-cause-l-etude-de-the-lancet-1249617.html

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  • Thu, Jun 11, 2020 - 3:55am

    #18
    GreenCebu

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    A 5th Reason for 'declining deaths' that Chris should consider!

    I put declining deaths in quotes because if you look closely you'll see that they are not really declining more recently, in fact it looks like they were declining but have leveled off and are just starting to go back up! This can be explained by the fact that we are now transitioning between most of the cases coming from more developed countries in Europe and the US, and are now getting into many cases coming from Latin America while the cases in the US and Europe wind down. We must bare in mind as Chris always says that the deaths will lag the cases, so a second peak of deaths will come within a month from Latin America, India and Africa, which may be much more horrific than those from the developed nations due to inferior health care systems in those southern nations.  The virus hit the developed nations first since they are more connected with flights to China, but now it has also spread to less well connected nations but perhaps with a slower spread.  You can see this in this nice FT graph.

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  • Thu, Jun 11, 2020 - 6:19am

    #19
    Mohammed Mast

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    What say you THC

    Chris had some provocative ideas on how to handle the policing situation. Just wondering how you feel about that?

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  • Thu, Jun 11, 2020 - 6:43am

    #20
    tbp

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    tbp said:

    Chris & Folks, don't forget that we have immune systems. In April asymptomatic transmission was far less rare because few people had acquired immunity yet. (LMAO @ the WHO bus u-turn BTW)

    The linked Unz article shows no dates. There is assumed to be no difference between now (after a first wave), and then (before any wave of a new virus). We need to be looking at more recent data.

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  • Thu, Jun 11, 2020 - 8:49am

    thc0655

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    Chris’s offhand comments about policing

    1. Rubber bullets. Rubber bullets are definitely not as accurate as Chris implies, even with a red dot sight and at any considerable distance (say over 20-30 yards/meters). I have never fired rubber bullets, never been trained with them, my dept never used them. If I were in a riot and was handed a gun to fire rubber bullets, I wouldn’t fire any unless as a last ditch attempt to keep from firing real bullets (i.e. a rioter was using potentially lethal force on police or innocents such as shooting .50 caliber ball bearings by a high powered sling shot, M80’s thrown at people, etc.). But if the target was doing that in a riot I’d be very concerned about hitting someone else crowded around him. I’d have more confidence about hitting him with a rifle, but then again you still have the danger of hitting someone in the riot who isn’t using lethal force. If I was the police Chief I’d prohibit the use of rubber bullets. I’d rather use other methods and technologies that I know of, or use real bullets if the threat was that bad. But BLM, Antifa, certain political parties, and the media wouldn’t like my other options either.

    That raises another issue. Raise your hand if you’ve ever been in a riot. That’s what I thought: practically nobody here at PP (including Chris, I assume). Raise your other hand if you’ve ever been in a riot in which you are the target of the mob’s rage and violence. Right, so maybe a literal handful of us or less.  A little humility would be in order then when offering guidance to the professionals who have been there and done that, and are on the hook for responding to the next riot and absolutely guaranteed to be blamed, sued and maybe even prosecuted no matter what they do or don’t do. Riot control is a thankless, dangerous, literally no-win situation, and everybody becomes Monday morning quarterbacks.

    There’s another issue for “innocent protesters.” Here’s my advice: if you’re an innocent protester out exercising your rights and you see violence breaking out (by whichever faction), GO HOME! Many “innocent protesters” are: 1) lying (they’re really engaging in riotous behavior), 2) ideologically supportive of riotous behavior by those around them but not actually doing it themselves, or 3) dangerously underestimating how bad things can get in seconds in a riot and therefore expose themselves to many grave dangers by not leaving immediately.

    2. Chris says lawsuit payouts should come from police pension funds to incentivize police to better behavior. I agree that we should do a better job of aligning police incentives with the high standards we have for them. I would agree with his idea with a few caveats. First, let’s implement that policy once the pension fund is at least 90% funded. My pension fund is about 40% funded and it only looks that good if you accept its baseline assumption that it will earn 7.75% per year on its investments. Drop that assumption to a still-optimistic 4.0% and it would be about 20-25% funded. So now you want to further impair/endanger my retirement for bad police behavior I have no control over? I would also be in favor of Chris’s proposal if it was applied to everybody in govt service. I would also accept it if (while I was still employed) I could refuse orders and assignments, without the threat of sanctions, that I perceived as too risky. For instance, in today’s environment I would refuse riot duty, refuse to enforce any drug laws and refuse to arrest a black person if they were armed or resisting arrest (I’d let them go and write the appropriate report). Chris is an entrepreneur who can control his work 100%. He doesn’t have to do risky, dangerous things some other authority orders him to do upon threat of termination of employment, or serious financial penalty.

    3. Chris says police officers should have to pay for personal malpractice insurance so that bad actors were eventually unable to afford the insurance to keep working in law enforcement. Good idea to line up incentives again. Again, let’s apply that to all in govt service. That plan at least allows me to defend my actions in court since I could theoretically hire my own lawyer to defend me, instead of the city routinely paying out to avoid the expense of trials. This may come as a shock to you but we live in a litigious society and Philadelphia might be the worst example in the country. People actually lie to attempt to get a payout from anyone with deep pockets! And those with deep pockets routinely just settle out of court for what they consider to be pocket change just to avoid expensive trials (and filthy lying opportunists know it very well). I witnessed a city bus accident before I became a cop in which the car bounced off the bus which was carrying three passengers and the driver. I don’t know what the outcome was but I do know 46 people eventually claimed to be on the bus and sued to cover their “medical expenses.” I was sued three times in 19 years in the police dept but the best one by far I only learned about 5 years after the city settled with the victim for $60,000. I was never notified of the lawsuit, never deposed, never asked what happened, nothing. What did I and my officers do that was so bad that the city paid $60,000? Two of my officers arrested a man in a wheelchair for retail theft (shoplifting) while he was making his “escape.” They called me to the scene to ask what to do with the defendant who weighed about 250 lbs since he was in a wheelchair and wouldn’t fit in their car. He had to be transported to HQ for fingerprinting, photographing and a bail hearing. I was a little stumped myself but called my prisoner transport van to the scene which was crewed by two weightlifters. We discussed it and agreed to risk injury to ourselves and just lift him into the back of the van in his wheelchair. We did it successfully and got him safely to HQ. That’s it. No injury to the suspect. To this day I don’t know what damages the lawsuit was trying to recover but it wasn’t for excessive force, injuries, or false arrest. It gets better. I found out about this case I was named in when I attended a training on the dept’s two handicapped-accessible prisoner transport vans that we could use for physically handicapped prisoners. Unbeknownst to me, as part of the defendant’s first lawsuit the city agreed to get handicapped-accessible vans to transport handicapped prisoners, BUT THEY NEVER GOT AROUND TO IT. Guess what happened? This same man in a wheelchair was arrested again somewhere else in the city for retail theft and the cops did the exact same thing I did the first time. And he sued and accepted ANOTHER $60,000 payout from the city. It gets better. The training I attended for supervisors on how to use the handicapped prisoner vans was held about a year AFTER we were already told to start using them. In that year, I had tried to use them three times for arrests but two times I was told the vans were broken down and couldn’t come and one time there was no driver available. Zero for three! So in that training I told my whole sad story and announced that from that point going forward I would be ordering my officers to release any handicapped prisoners they arrested and not to attempt to transport them for arrest processing. Now is this kind of atmosphere in which Chris wants cops to pay for personal malpractice insurance? Sure. Seems fair to me.

    4. Chris suggested prosecuting cops who falsify evidence and the like by exposing them to the same criminal penalties the criminal was facing. Another wise attempt to align incentives. You should know that cops are already exposed to punishments for lying or falsifying evidence that are in the majority of cases considerably GREATER than the punishments the criminal was facing. I’d love to see this principle in action in the whole Russiagate investigation currently be conducted by the DOJ. What punishments should Brennan, Comey, McCabe, Strzok, Page and all the others be facing?

    “Happy Hunger Games. And may the odds be ever in your favor.”

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  • Thu, Jun 11, 2020 - 9:32am

    000

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    2

    Hand Raised

    Hand raised.

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  • Thu, Jun 11, 2020 - 9:43am

    #23
    davez

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    davez said:

    I've now started monitoring the moving average for the death rate globally and in particular locations. I think this is important because this is where we will see COVID attenuating,  which biologically/ecologically, it should.

    Here's a link to the spreadsheet (be sure to copy it into your Google account or the file will get overwhelmed with users).

    And for those who are interested in WA-only data.

    Notice that each chart displays a graph with the 7-day average CFR. Almost across the board, CFR is declining. This could be due to many factors, but we can hope it is due to the attenuation of the virus. Novel 'species' are known to reduce virulence over time. This could be very good news.

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  • Thu, Jun 11, 2020 - 9:45am

    #24
    yagasjai

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    Police: Caught in the Middle

    So the thing that jumps out at me in this discussion is that this is, once again, an issue of all of us existing in a system in which basic human needs are not met. When the system is set up in such a way as to force the vast majority of people into poverty, (debt-serfs), and people can't get what they need legally, that sets up a situation where many people will turn to getting what they need illegally and for the sake of their own survival, learn how to exploit weaknesses in the system's enforcement mechanisms, as thc0655 points out. The police are not the system. The police are set up between the regular working people and those who are in power. Their purpose is twofold: one- to enforce the "rules" that allow the system to continue extracting value (time, labor, resources, etc...) from the masses for the benefit of TPTB.  And two- to absorb and direct the rage of the working people away from those in power. Pissed off at Bezos for accruing a few extra billion dollars while millions of people lose their jobs? You can't reach him. You don't have contact with HIM. But you do have contact with the police. So as far as I can tell, it's a set-up for the police to absorb the rage of the working people so that profits for the ultra wealthy are not affected. The system we have is set up in a particular way, these are some of the outcomes we get with this system. Set up the system another way, and we would get different outcomes. I don't know, let's say for starters that our goal for the new system is to ensure that everyone's basic needs are met, as a bottom line. We want to start with humans having their basic needs met. Wonder what would happen to this debate about police then...

    EDIT: And please consider this outside the systems we already know (capitalism, communism, socialism- all three of which, by the way are currently financed by debt-based money.) If we could set it up the way we would want it, how would we set it up? Given everything we know about how the current system works against us, if we could set it up another way, what would we do?

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  • Thu, Jun 11, 2020 - 10:01am

    scotthw

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    305 weeks, wow a lot can happen

    I thought it was an attempt at humor.

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  • Thu, Jun 11, 2020 - 10:22am

    Klaatu

    Klaatu

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    9

    Masks

    Proof that we are living on a planet of mass idiocy.  The idea that the simple physical separation by a mask of your exhalation from my inhalation needed to be "proven" by a statistically-verified study shows that we are in the hands of idiots on the societal scale, and need to just isolate and protect ourselves from all of them.

    I mean, good on them for doing a study to prove out the totally obvious -- "transmission falls from 17.4% to 3.1%" --, but appealing with logical results to people living in a mass hallucination confirms that popular definition of insanity.

    I suppose someone could get a grant to study whether putting a hand up in front of the net will stop a basketball from going in, or at least cut down the scoring rate.

    I flew home in early March, wearing the only mask on that plane, with five people around me coughing.  The next few days, I felt a faint tightness in my upper chest, took all of the rest and nutritive measures we discuss here, then felt no  symptoms after that.  I was relieved, but glad that I had reduced my intake of whatever those brave, brave Texans were spewing.  Haven't entered a store or public space since then without wearing one.

    Again, Game Theory, if everyone had cooperated from the start (including those "officials" who were giving incredibly bad and inverted advice), this thing would have been basically over in two weeks.  Good luck on those hopes! Flying pigs.

    Jesus F. C., how stupid can people be!  Probably still more to come, more than I can imagine.  They have to suffer, and watch people they know suffer, and then that still probably won't be enough to educate them.  Hell, men have charged en masse into the raking fire of machine guns for less of an ideology than "exceptional" Americans hold over themselves now.  Darwin Awards never contemplated entire nations entering themselves into the competition.

    A perfectly presented virus, one that won't kill enough people grotesquely enough to shock the rest into changing behavior, so the minimum hope, for the US at least, is that some regions act logically, and then isolate from those who don't, the ones who wish to find out the hard way.

    Meanwhile, because I am passported as a US American, no country in the world is going to admit me to visit for quite a long, long time to come, and those who might will probably still have enough ongoing problems to cancel out my interest in going..

     

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  • Thu, Jun 11, 2020 - 10:25am

    Klaatu

    Klaatu

    Status: Member

    Joined: Jan 25 2018

    Posts: 22

    2

    305

    Chris and Adam may turn out to be inadvertently prophetic.  Wanna take the over/under?

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  • Thu, Jun 11, 2020 - 11:10am

    #28
    yagasjai

    yagasjai

    Status: Member

    Joined: Apr 18 2009

    Posts: 123

    0

    A Thought Experiment: Money in this Historical Context

    The current monetary and socio-economic system evolved out of the previous ones we had. Slavery -> Feudalism -> Colonialism -> Industrialization. What we have now, is certainly an improvement on what came before, and yet, we are seeing that what we have now isn't working very well for a lot of us. Not just in terms of riots in the streets, but in terms of the depletion of the life-support systems of the planet.

    What we have now, which is based on all that came before, is still operating from a mindset of extraction. That worked really well, in a certain way, for a long time, when there were frontiers to be explored and rich deposits of resources to be mined. Yet we are in a completely different context now, and our systems have not yet caught up with the current reality. The resources that remain in the ground now must either be conserved (aquifers, nutrients in soil, etc...) or set aside (oil, coal, etc...). There isn't *more* to be extracted.

    So my mind keeps returning to the question of what it would look like to base an economy on regeneration instead of extraction. If you want the align the incentives, why would we not do that with the monetary system itself? Why would you not back the money supply with something that actually matters, like trees/ carbon sequestration? Plants are the means of production of all life. Nothing else can exist without the oxygen they produce. If we want people to conserve the natural resources that remain, why not quantify the amount of oxygen they produce (or carbon they sequester)? If we have the technology to digitally image every inch of the planet. And have apps on our phones to identify plants from a picture of the leaves. And we have modeling software that can calculate the energy efficiency of a building based on a wide range of materials used. And there is modeling software being designed to do the same for the embodied carbon in those building materials. With such sophisticated technology, could we not build models for calculating the amount of oxygen produced (or carbon sequestered) for a given city block? Town? State? Country?

    And then, based on those calculations, you arrive at a pool of resource (oxygen or carbon sequestration), a snapshot at a given point in time. Simply divide the current monetary supply by the volume of oxygen produced (or carbon sequestered), and voila! You have currency backed by something real. You now have a pool of this currency, and for the sake of this thought experiment, let's say we divide it evenly among everyone. Doesn't matter who you are. Everyone gets a fair share (Sh"air"?) This is a permaculture principle. And if politicians want more currency in the system, so they can promise constituents this thing or that thing, then by golly, what do they have to do? They have to promote activities which not only conserve what we already have, but encourage people to plant more trees (gardens, living rooftops, etc...) or sequester carbon (also plant trees or build soil.) A currency for our "current" context.

    And lest you think that the supply would always grow, you could build in decay to the system (same as happens in nature), so that one ShAir loses a percentage of its value over a given period of time ( after 3 months 1 ShAir= 75%, after 6 months 1 ShAir=50%, etc...) So people are encouraged to spend, and circulate their ShAirs, until the next "snapshot" is taken. Annually? Quarterly? Monthly?

    But the premise of this system is completely different from the premise of the current system. And that is the point. That it might be possible to create something new, that has not existed before, specifically for this context, to incentivise the activities we most want to see. Our current system sets us up to compete with each other fiercely for an artificially induced scarcity of currency (there is ALWAYS more debt in the system than there is currency to pay it off). What if we could set up a system that would allow us to cooperate and collaborate on behalf of regenerating the planet's life-support systems?

    I realize some may dismiss what I say because I am a "dreamer" or out-of-touch with the reality of things. That what I am saying is not practical, or possible. So I will leave you with a quote, my point is not to harp on capitalism per se, only to aim our minds in the direction of looking beyond what we can currently see:

    "We live in capitalism. It's power seems inescapable. But then- so did the divine right of kings. Any human power can be resisted and changed by human beings. Resistance and change often begin in art. Very often in our art, the art of words." Ursula K. Le Guin

     

     

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  • Thu, Jun 11, 2020 - 11:22am

    #29
    DennisC

    DennisC

    Status: Bronze Member

    Joined: Mar 19 2011

    Posts: 184

    3

    Genetic Predisposition

    My Daddy was a man of letters
    My Mama was a head of state
    And when they got their chromosomes together
    They gave me all of their recessive traits

    I'm an embarrassment to evolution
    My disposition is unstable and cruel
    My blood's a catastrophic blend
    'Cause I'm from the shallow end of the gene pool

    ...

    ~ Shallow End Of Gene Pool - Austin Lounge Lizzards

    An interesting song by an interesting band, just MHO of course.

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  • Thu, Jun 11, 2020 - 12:40pm

    TWalker5

    TWalker5

    Status: Member

    Joined: Mar 13 2020

    Posts: 42

    7

    TWalker5 said:

    THC, thank you very much for that perspective. I’d hate to be a LEO right now. They’re in a no-win situation.  Frankly, I expect the crime rate in urban areas to skyrocket over the coming months and years.  If I was a cop, I would be very reluctant to arrest any black person right now, regardless of the scenario. I also expect that many good young cops will be considering new careers soon, and those considering joining a police force will start looking elsewhere.

    T.

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  • Thu, Jun 11, 2020 - 12:52pm

    Mike from Jersey

    Mike from Jersey

    Status: Member

    Joined: Jan 22 2018

    Posts: 89

    2

    @French Connexion

    French Connexion,

    I looked at the YouTube video with the translation from French into English. It is here:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZYgiCALEdpE

    As I read the translation, he is talking about a conversation which happened a couple of days before. He specifically says "a meeting the other day." Later on in the interview he says that the two editors discussed the matter  being "criminal," in light of the Covid 19 outbreak. He noted that the editors literally used the word "criminal" in discussing what happened. That looks pretty clear to me. Now, it is possible that the translation is wrong and it is possible that it only looks like he is referring to a recent conversation. But to me it looks like Horton made these statements recently in light of the recent retraction of the study.

    Regardless, this merits a serious investigation.

     

     

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  • Thu, Jun 11, 2020 - 12:59pm

    pangolino

    pangolino

    Status: Member

    Joined: Apr 28 2020

    Posts: 10

    0

    pangolino said:

    Hi taz1999,

    you can start from here where there are several references to the fact that masks are mostly useless.

    Facts about Covid-19

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  • Thu, Jun 11, 2020 - 1:50pm

    Mohammed Mast

    Mohammed Mast

    Status: Silver Member

    Joined: May 17 2017

    Posts: 829

    5

    Thanks THC

    You offer a valuable perspective to the conversation.

    I do take some issue with changing the discussion to "all gov't employees" ie bureaucrats. The difference being the lady at the DMV is not packing. Nor is the Property tax clerk. They are not mobile and moving at will in the community. They do not present a physical threat to the community. So I see this as a red herring.

    I do not recall a bureaucrat costing a municipality millions in settlement money which comes out of the taxpayers pockets. Derek Chauvin  directly and indirectly is costing Minneapolis millions in property damage, lost tax revenue from businesses and at least one manufacturer is leaving the city. Why are the taxpayers on the hook for that bill?

    It is my understanding that there had been quite a number of complaints filed against him. As far as I know nothing came of them. Apparently the manager of the night club where he had been working security wanted to replace him but was afraid of reprisals. I have seen it reported that Amy Klobuchar was the prosecuting atty. in Minneapolis and in 8 years had  127 complaints, no prosecutions and the city paid 4 million in settlements. That definitely does speak to your call for extending liability. How to do that is another matter.

    In my former business i was required to carry liability insurance in places where I displayed my work. I see no reason why police should not be required to as well.

    Knowing a few cops and having spoken to a number it is clear that many are former service members, probably having served in the ME. There is a not small possibility that they are suffering from PTSD. or at least deeply affected by that experience. I am of the Vietnam generation so I have a lot of friends who are still having difficulty adjusting 50 years later. I do not think it unreasonable that some of these officers see the minorities in their jurisdiction as just more "hajis". I am not painting all police departments with a broad brush but clearly it does not take an entire police force of Derek Chauvins to create lots of problems.

    I live in the South and police forces in the South originated to control slaves. I can assure you there is still a great deal of racism here, inside and outside of the force. In the North police forces were formed by the industrialists who wanted to do business w/o interference. During the Occupy movement JP Morgan gave 4 million to the PBA and shortly thereafter Zucotti Park was cleared. What a coincidence. With a little forethought you could have been a cop in NYC and not have to worry about you pension being funded. lol That was a joke.

    With all of that said, I take you to be a very caring , intelligent and experienced human being. So my questions to you are. Do we have a police problem? And if so how do you think to best rectify it?

    BTW where I grew up the hunger games were, are, and always will be. For people of color the odds are never in their favor. Well the Floyd family has some pretty good odds of a successful lawsuit.

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  • Thu, Jun 11, 2020 - 2:49pm

    Hladini

    Hladini

    Status: Member

    Joined: Dec 28 2011

    Posts: 239

    8

    Rats in a Cage

    Thank you THc for this perspective.  While I was watching the riots and protesters clashing, all I could think of was that study  Chris quotes, when you put one rat in a cage and shock it, they just tolerate it after failing to find the source.  When you put two rats in a cage and shock it,  those rats attack each other even to the death.

    The clashes that are going are just that.   The country is getting shock after shock and everybody is blaming everyone else.

     

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  • Thu, Jun 11, 2020 - 3:13pm

    #35
    Sparky1

    Sparky1

    Status: Bronze Member

    Joined: Jul 21 2016

    Posts: 753

    1

    Both hands raised.

    Raise your hand if you’ve ever been in a riot.

    Raise your other hand if you’ve ever been in a riot in which you are the target of the mob’s rage and violence.

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  • Thu, Jun 11, 2020 - 6:15pm

    green_achers

    green_achers

    Status: Member

    Joined: Jan 03 2009

    Posts: 51

    2

    green_achers said:

    And that's why Billy Joe McAlister jumped off the Tallahatchie bridge.

    Love that band, and if I wasn't going deaf, I would pull up one of their videos.

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  • Thu, Jun 11, 2020 - 7:25pm

    #37
    Mohammed Mast

    Mohammed Mast

    Status: Silver Member

    Joined: May 17 2017

    Posts: 829

    1

    George Floyd's Brother Speaks

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g_S7VC8nvLI

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  • Thu, Jun 11, 2020 - 9:12pm

    Sparky1

    Sparky1

    Status: Bronze Member

    Joined: Jul 21 2016

    Posts: 753

    4

    What's goin' on?

    We won't know what's goin' on if we seek the false safety, comfort and negative feedback loop validation of echo chambers filled with "like-minded" folk who fail to consider, listen to and HEAR "other" voices. That's assuming, of course, that one actually cares. [Note: Ref. the video, I support first and second amendment rights.]

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  • Thu, Jun 11, 2020 - 10:50pm

    #39
    NicolaHNZ

    NicolaHNZ

    Status: Member

    Joined: Jan 28 2020

    Posts: 19

    0

    Double lung transplant saves young virus patient

    Hi all

    Had anyone seen this? You need to scroll down in the link.

    Beijing logs first local coronavirus case in weeks: Live updates
    https://aje.io/duntw

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  • Fri, Jun 12, 2020 - 1:26am

    Jetplane10.102

    Jetplane10.102

    Status: Member

    Joined: Feb 23 2020

    Posts: 9

    2

    Jetplane10.102 said:

    Hello, I can't find my way around this site, at all. I could only hit 'reply' on this comment to say so, sorry to person commenting.

    Peak prosperity: if I am finding it hard to work out, there would be heaps of others similarly struggling.

    I try the blogg tab & discuss tab too. Sometimes I get to enter a discussion heading in, then it just disappears again, before I got chance to write anything.

    The menu is accompanied by a blank page, I have resorted to tweeting because I can't work it out.

    Does anyone but me have these troubles please?

    Please redesign the site. Where is the help section even.

    It is such a shame to say negative things about you guys, because I love you and think you do an outstanding and totally unique job.

    When I have posted, I know, I have put it in the wrong or a stupid as in doesn't make sense place.

    I am looking like a real idiot here, I very well expect - but at the risk of looking foolish, frustration at not being able to work it out, leads me to ask about it.

    Kindest regards to all Peak Prosperity people xox

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  • Fri, Jun 12, 2020 - 5:12am

    #41

    sand_puppy

    Status: Platinum Member

    Joined: Apr 13 2011

    Posts: 2442

    5

    Famotidine Dose for COVID

    Here is a very brief report of 10 people who self-administered high dose famotidine (Pepcid AC over-the-counter) for COVID.  Dose used was famotidine 80 mg  3 times daily (this is 6 times the usual prescription dose for ulcers).

    It was well tolerated (no medicine side-effects)

    Reduced the symptom severity and, in 2 patients who followed their O2Saturation measurements, it improved oxygenation.

    ------

    Edit:  Robie, not PEP. these 10 cases were using famotidine after people got sick.

     

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  • Fri, Jun 12, 2020 - 6:11am

    robie robinson

    robie robinson

    Status: Gold Member

    Joined: Aug 25 2009

    Posts: 1064

    0

    famotidine

    as a PEP?

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  • Fri, Jun 12, 2020 - 6:21am

    Mike from Jersey

    Mike from Jersey

    Status: Member

    Joined: Jan 22 2018

    Posts: 89

    1

    @Jetplane10.102

    Jetplane10.102,

    Here is a link to the site to contact the administrators of the site.

    https://www.peakprosperity.com/contact/

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  • Fri, Jun 12, 2020 - 7:22am

    Sparky1

    Sparky1

    Status: Bronze Member

    Joined: Jul 21 2016

    Posts: 753

    4

    New Members: Finding your way on the PP site

    Hi Jetplane10.102. Sorry you're having difficulties navigating and posting to the PP website. You're not alone as the site has some functional limitations and is set-up awkwardly in places, and there's no "on-boarding" process or information to welcome or orient new members. There's a lot of great content and discussions on PP, but the "Search" function to find content needs further improvement, IMO. I know the site principals, Chris and Adam, are working on implementing some site upgrades. So please offer suggestions as your new member perspective and experience might be helpful.

    I don't know if the device you're using (e.g., phone vs. laptop) makes a difference in your visuals and the functions while on the PP website. I know other members post from their iphones w/o any difficulties. My experience and suggestions below are based on using a laptop.

    Here's a link to the PP help/FAQs that might be informative: https://www.peakprosperity.com/faq/

    Here are the PP Site Posting Guidelines and Rules:  https://www.peakprosperity.com/forum-topic/forum-guidelines-and-rules/

    Regarding posting, IMO the Forums have some functional limitations that make them not especially conducive to ongoing discussions. The exception is DaveF's PM (Precious Metals) daily forum (link on PP landing page, and on left sidebar). Forum topics and discussions/threads appear chronologically, moving up or down on the Forums list depending on how recently someone posted a comment on the topic. At this time, Forum topics cannot be "pinned".

    I and others here have occasionally experienced the inexplicably "disappearing" comment problem. This sometimes happens in the Captcha "I am a human" validation process. If you've labored on a comment, added links, quotes, media or other material, it is helpful to copy your comment to your personal email, or paste it to a document before hitting the PP "Post Comment" button. This way, you'll have a copy in case the original gets inadvertently deleted.

    To post a comment on an article, go to the bottom of the discussion thread, enter in your brief "Subject Line", enter your comment into the text field below, then "Post Comment" when you're finished. If replying to a specific comment(s), click on "Reply" below the comment you want to respond to. This will bring you to the bottom of the thread with an indication of the name of the member your are replying to (i.e., "Replying to Jetplane10.102) with the number of that comment (i.e., #40).  Once you hit "Post Comment" your comment will appear after the most recent comment--so it will not be linked immediately below the comment you responded to. (PP comments are not linked as emails are.) I think this is what new members find particularly confusing.

    The PP discussions tend to herd around the most recent articles, videos or podcasts. You might have noticed that the comments that follow may/may not relate to the content in the articles, videos or podcasts. Occasionally you'll get some newer comments on older articles/threads on "evergreen" topics (e.g., Permaculture, raised beds). For the most part, it seems that discussion threads will be "live" or active for a few days, maybe a week or so for "hot topics", before moving to the next, most recent new content posted by Chris and Adam. This has been on hyperdrive since January 2020 due to Chris' Covid-19 coverage, with many more users and comments on the site. The site had some difficulties with logging-in and slow loading during very high traffic days in Jan./Feb. this year, but I think improvements have since resolved those issues.

    Enrolled members have access to "premium" content, generally located on the upper right corner of the main PP landing page. Enrolled members can also "up-vote" or "like" a comment by clicking on the hand/thumbs up icon. There's tally box indicating how many up-votes a comment has received. There is no "down-vote" function, but you can "un-like" or remove your like on a comment at any time.

    You can send a personal message (PM) to another enrolled member by clicking on "Send PM" located on the upper right corner of any comment posted by that member; or by going to your "Inbox" (uppermost tab on any PP webpage) and sending your message(s). The PMs function like typical email, and are private (i.e., visible to only you and the recipient).

    I hope the above information is helpful and that you find navigating the site and participating in discussions easier. Good luck and welcome to PP! 🙂

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  • Fri, Jun 12, 2020 - 7:47am

    dcm

    Status: Bronze Member

    Joined: Apr 14 2009

    Posts: 133

    11

    Too Close For Comfort

    I prosecuted some riot cases based in Seattle years back. As THC points out, there were massive issues in these cases. What I’m seeing now looks like a bizarre destruction from so many angles. The younger cops, despite all the body video and technology, seem to suffer from a very basic training and understanding of all the constitutional law and procedure that was emphasized in the sixties and seventies. I’m just guessing, and some retired cops agree with me, that this is a combination of never ending wars, a much more militaristic background, and a resulting militaristic approach. Just look at the vehicles and other tools now pushed on these cities by the MI Complex. They are also the executive branch and if there’s any broad constitutional pattern to the US, it’s the growth,  abuse, and ineffectiveness of this branch. The Unitary Executive Theory and other sick spin offs continue to erode this place. If it expects nothing legal or human out of its sick marriage with the financial industry why should it be any different with an on the ground and ultimate expression of power.  I personally think it’s much worse because , as we all know, there is a growing fear from all around especially from those living (and working) day to day in the streets where a lot of the ugly realities of a dying middle class and desperate underclass are expressing themselves in stranger, uglier ways. Those at the top have jumped at this opportunity and tried to simplify it with racism and bad cops but it’s more a symptom than anything else

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  • Fri, Jun 12, 2020 - 8:26am

    Mohammed Mast

    Mohammed Mast

    Status: Silver Member

    Joined: May 17 2017

    Posts: 829

    0

    dcm

    That was one of the best posts I have read here

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  • Fri, Jun 12, 2020 - 8:41am

    #47
    Mohammed Mast

    Mohammed Mast

    Status: Silver Member

    Joined: May 17 2017

    Posts: 829

    1

    Drugs

    This is a story that is an indication of the damage that can occur from drug use and criminalizing it. If drugs were treated as a medical issue rather than a criminal issue more people would receive help rather than prison.

    A personal anecdote; A very good friend of mine was treated at this hospital. misdiagnosed, received wrong treatment and died.

    I think people who out of a sense of duty who serve in the armed services deserve better. There are veterans who are homeless and receiving substandard medical care.

    https://www.nwaonline.com/news/2020/jun/12/pathologist-pleads-guilty-in-death-at/?utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=NWADG%20Morning%20Update%206-12&utm_content=NWADG%20Morning%20Update%206-12%20CID_92e7917e17aca8bf2ca485a6560266be&utm_source=Email%20Marketing%20Platform&utm_term=READ%20MORE&fbclid=IwAR1I0mqAB5-tzZR8JFvICzM9qhlPi9mGkc2QqNRFdIiRe9Gn-BDv-hVzQwo

    Every crime George Floyd committed involved drugs.  46% of people in prison are non violent drug offenders.

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  • Fri, Jun 12, 2020 - 10:28am

    Chris Martenson

    Chris Martenson

    Status: Platinum Member

    Joined: Jun 07 2007

    Posts: 5375

    10

    Re:

    My views are based on the idea that there's always more than one way to accomplish anything.  One bifurcation would be doing something violently or peacefully.

    Leaving aside the times when force is necessary - when a direct threat to life and limb is at hand - I am referring to excessive brutality and violence on the part of police when it's simply not necessary.

    Far from being an 'off hand' view this is something I've been curating and thinking about carefully over many years.  For example, I deplored the use of concussion grenades and rubber bullets fired at close range during the Standing Rock protests.

    By every single account, the protesters at Standing Rock were non-violent.  They took that part seriously and weeded out anybody with other ideas, sending them packing.  Despite this, the police and other LEO types there fired hundreds if not thousands of rounds of "non-lethal" munitions at otherwise peaceful people.  Out in the middle of the prairie where it wouldn't have mattered in the slightest if the protesters were 50 feet this way or that way.

    My good friend Tim was there as a photographer for many months and I saw the pics, the videos and heard the stories.  Pure brutality on the part of the LEOs, who were never in danger and never under any sort of threat.

    Same as we see in literally dozens of cases now across the US.  Here's one example out of many from Ft. Lauderdale last week.

    The full video:

    Here are four stills from that video.

    (1) here we see the set-up.  A line of protesters, kneeling, hands up in the air.  I would grade their threat level to the line of police 30 feet away at about 0.5 on a scale of 0.0 to 10.

    (2) After ignoring a police command to disperse, an officer cleaves off from the line to the side with a close support officer behind, takes aim and shoots.

    (3) Hit!  A young woman, wouldn't you know it, is clocked right in the face.  From perhaps 30 feet away.  With a rubber bullet round fired from a rifled barrel.  All due respect Tom, but you know as well I do that these things are accurate enough from that range to place 'em.  If you doubt me, just spend a few minutes on Youtube watching companies demonstrate the accuracy of their round, and LEO types practicing shooting each other in the leg.  Hit after hit going right where they are aimed.

    (4) A close up shows just how close this young woman came to having her eye shot out.  This is a disgusting display of brutality that I will deplore and criticize over and over again as a matter of integrity.

    This circumstance simply did not warrant that use of violent force.  The police were not under threat, and they outnumbered the kneeling protesters.  I don't know what sorts of crowds were in the background, but I will continue to insist that shooting this woman in the face - on purpose - was a wildly inappropriate and disproportionate use of force.

    Again - just to be clear - I am ready, willing and able to use lethal force in certain circumstances, so I am not some starry eyed peacenik ungrounded in the realities of mobs and such.   I completely understand when and how lethal force would be necessary and justified.

    The above example, and dozens of others, however, aren't in that camp.

     

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  • Fri, Jun 12, 2020 - 11:02am

    #49
    David Turin

    David Turin

    Status: Bronze Member

    Joined: May 12 2020

    Posts: 57

    2

    David Turin said:

    I hope the above information is helpful and that you find navigating the site and participating in discussions easier. Good luck and welcome to PP! 🙂

    @sparky1 - THANK YOU  for your time. Very useful and much appreciated.  

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  • Fri, Jun 12, 2020 - 11:27am

    #50

    thc0655

    Status: Platinum Member

    Joined: Apr 27 2010

    Posts: 2084

    6

    Agreed

    Don’t ask me to support the use of rubber bullets, certainly not in that situation above.  Like I said,

    If I were in a riot and was handed a gun to fire rubber bullets, I wouldn’t fire any unless as a last ditch attempt to keep from firing real bullets (i.e. a rioter was using potentially lethal force on police or innocents such as shooting .50 caliber ball bearings by a high powered sling shot, M80’s thrown at people, etc.)...  If I was the police Chief I’d prohibit the use of rubber bullets. I’d rather use other methods and technologies that I know of, or use real bullets if the threat was that bad.

    So what was the outcome of that situation you illustrated? Did anybody get fired or prosecuted (especially the commander who gave the order to fire)? Personally, I would have refused to fire that shot. Frankly, I’m at least as embarrassed for my former profession (law enforcement) as you are of yours (scientific research). Assuming the lack of necessity to use that level of force, our broken society has well-known methods for dealing with that kind of police abuse. Officers can be suspended, fired and charged with crimes. Police chiefs can be fired by mayors. Sheriff’s can be voted out of office. I throw up my hands in frustration when it doesn’t happen. But this kind of institutional and professional failure and corruption runs through every corner of our society, doesn’t it? So I wonder why police have become the target of so much rage to the exclusion of other parts of our society that get little or none of it. No riots over the Federal Reserve, the SEC, the bankers who blew up the economy in 2008, unfunded state and local pensions, schools that don’t educate, US Navy ships that can’t navigate blue water oceans without colliding with other monstrous-sized vessels, and on and on. And what if hydroxycloriquine turns out to be effective at preventing serious consequences of Covid19 and that the shameful shenanigans employed to bury it actually cost thousands of lives around the world? Will any one suffer any consequences for that? Will there be riots? Will there be calls to defund science? Hmmmm.

    You know, it’s almost as if someone would like us all to take all our accumulated rage out on the police to the exclusion of anyone else. It’s almost as if that has been engineered and encouraged by influential people and groups. Can it be that law enforcement is the biggest problem we have as a society? Who would benefit from us focusing our energies in that direction and no other? 🤔

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  • Fri, Jun 12, 2020 - 12:31pm

    #51
    David Turin

    David Turin

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    Joined: May 12 2020

    Posts: 57

    1

    David Turin said:

    There’s another issue for “innocent protesters.” Here’s my advice: if you’re an innocent protester out exercising your rights and you see violence breaking out (by whichever faction), GO HOME!

    @thc0655 -- Thank you for your time and thoughts.

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  • Fri, Jun 12, 2020 - 12:33pm

    Klaatu

    Klaatu

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    Joined: Jan 25 2018

    Posts: 22

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    Site confusion

    I sort of agree, Jetplane, with your description of not knowing where things are on this site, but not sure if it's a priority for me now.  I joined a couple years ago because Chris and Adam presented good economics without the right-wing bias.  I used the site to help with preps when the CV loomed on the horizon.  I did not participate in discussions, because the time seemed so urgent as the range of breakdown scenarios outran my abilities to prepare for the worst of them.

    I had participated in great blogs 20 years ago, learned a lot, fought off the trolls, and now -- well -- just use it to vent and/or clarify questions on CV that have been on my mind for several months.  Learn more by listening than speaking.  Probably have many, many threads to go back and read through.

    I've watched all of Chris' and Adam's video presentations since the beginning, as my primary educational tool.  But I just sort of accept randomly coming here to this site and "tak(ing) what you have gathered from coincidence" -- Dylan.

    It's probably best I don't get too immersed in the site structure.

    And, I don't want to spend hours a day when I start to catch an interesting angle on a topic in the discussions below those videos, and yes, I love to "hear myself think," and I try to write carefully.

    So, not understanding the site's structure of organization is not so important to me, as I try not to get hooked in to ongoing discussions.  Acknowledging my own weakness.  I think I have been in the "Resilience Tribe" for decades now, but can always use some reminders.

    I will go back to the actual prep threads "one of these afternoons" and check them against my own lists, mostly uncompleted.  Since the "collapse" has morphed into other avenues and topics, I may have gotten lazy, when huge events spring upon us in an instant.

    You never do get used to that barrage of crises, and we all remain now, I think, in a state of shock.  My garden remains unplowed (need a higher deer fence).  I need to wean myself off of the shiny objects of interest, and get back to an organized preparation regime.  I do tend to wander into directions that interest me, and there are many.

    We now may have been lulled into a false sense of relative safety in the midst of collapse.  I can help some people remotely, but overall, it's hard to see myself "accomplishing" much of anything, except staying healthy.

    The best thing I get done some days is wash the accumulated dishes, then close my computer, put on an audio of a history or politics book, and take a nap.

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  • Fri, Jun 12, 2020 - 12:48pm

    Barbara

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    Yes, fair incentives for all government employees, especially elected/appointed

    First, I'll add the obvious thing.  Penalties for bystanders, especially reporters, who simply film an incident for their 15 min of fame without making any attempt to intervene.  First requirement for a bystander, especially one filming - loudly identify the unacceptable behavior and demand a stop.  2nd, dial 911 and request an ambulance and a police supervisor and explain it's because you're viewing (filming) an active incident of unwarranted force.  I know it seems counterintuitive to call 911 on the police, BUT consider - you now have a record on the 911 tape of bystanders questioning the incident.  It appears that in an Austin case, a so-called reporter filming the incident may have been inciting, rather than making any attempt to assist the victim.  NOT ethical.  "See something; say something --NOW!" should be required.
    The bystander effect is insidious.  Studies of school bullying show that if bystanders simply question the action, it often disrupts the cycle.  Now you can say easy for an OLD lady to day, as macho cops don't tend to hit old white ladies, but we know if one person says something, others tend to support them.  So the onus is on those of us who appear to be least threatening to yell out the first NO.  However, we do expect all of you to back us up by dialing 911 and by standing your ground right next to us.  AND, as Gandhi showed, absolutely no violence.

    How do we hold people accountable for doing their jobs?  It's not easy.  CEO's run a company into bankruptcy and get to keep multi millions in bonuses they looted.  Teachers have a classroom of students who learn nothing in an entire year.  Engineers design a bridge/building that collapses.  It's true that private employees, like the engineer are more likely to face consequences than public employees.  It's also true that people at the top whose lack of leadership is often responsible for such issues almost never suffer consequences.  In a country that supposedly values individual initiative, we've sure lost the corollary that individuals must also be held responsible for the harm they do.  Lawsuits seldom do that.  They harass/blame the little guy while giving undeserved settlements from faceless deep pockets.

    I remember when bankers considered themselves fiduciaries and mothers told their kids to find a policeman if they had a problem.  Those days are long gone.  We teach our kids their "rights", but seldom the responsibilities that go with those rights.  And we have a long history of underpaid police (and Pinkertons) being used as thugs to back up the power of corrupt politicians and rich capitalists.  Rent-a-thug has always been in style.  And yet most police departments also have a long tradition of protect and serve--us against the bad guys.  And there are bad guys, as the vandalism and looking shows clearly.

    The only thing needed for evil to thrive is for good men [sic] to do nothing.  The problem is do what?  We need a much clearer vision for a workable future, not a childish temper tantrum or a pity-party.

    We can't begin to dismantle old  corrupt institutions until we have something better to propose.  Recommending a corrupted malpractice industry to take oversight of the police is the pot calling the kettle black.  Letting the union pension funds take a hit might be a little more incentive to turn in the thug next to you, but again it ties into already corrupt union and pension funds corrupted be wall street corruption.  Again, not a viable solution for transformational change.

    I don't have a better vision yet, but I do think it's time to stop complaining and start envisioning something really different.  Something that punishes malfeasance at the higher levels with more than a slap on the wrist or a few months at a country club prison.  And more importantly, better incentives for good behavior, including whistleblowing.  Yes, you need to be able to trust the guy who is supposed to have your back, but you also need to be able to get rid of those nobody can trust very quickly.  We need to teach kids it's OK to turn in cheats and bullies and they must speak up when they see someone being hurt.  Time for some old-fashioned responsibility!

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  • Fri, Jun 12, 2020 - 12:55pm

    #54
    westcoastjan

    westcoastjan

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    Joined: Jun 04 2012

    Posts: 465

    5

    Friday musings...

    The article linked below, first posted by member '000' on the Neil Howe interview thread, deserves another look, given recent events. It provides much food for thought, and additional impetus (as if we needed any) to foster and promote a counter propaganda movement. PP & its tribe is and can continue to be leaders in this regard. A few excerpts (italicized part my emphasis):

    "...The ultimate objective of “Big Money” is to transform nation states (with their own institutions and a national economy) into “open economic territories”. That was the fate of Iraq and Afghanistan. But now you can do it without sending in troops, by simply ordering subservient proxy governments integrated by corrupt politicians to close down their economy on humanitarian grounds, the so-called “Responsibility to Protect” (R2P) without the need for military intervention.

    Impossible to estimate or evaluate. More than half the global economy is disrupted or at a standstill.

    Let’s be clear. This is an imperial agenda. What do the global financial elites want? To privatize the State? To own and privatize the entire planet?

    ...The tendency is towards the centralization and concentration of economic power. Heavily indebted national governments are instruments of Big Money. They are proxies. Key political appointments are controlled by lobby groups representing Wall Street, The Military Industrial Complex, Big Pharma, Big Oil, the Corporate Media and the Digital Communications Giants, etc.

    Big Money in Europe and America (through Washington Lobby groups) seek to control national governments.

    In what direction are we going? What is the future of humanity? The current corona crisis is a sophisticated imperial project, which consists in Worldwide domination by a handful of multibillion dollar conglomerates. Is this World War III? Global capitalism is destroying national capitalism.

    The unspoken intent of global capitalism is the destruction of the nation state and its institutions leading to global poverty on an unprecedented scale.

    When the Lie Becomes the Truth There is No Moving Backwards

    Without the fear campaign and media propaganda, the actions taken by our governments would not have a leg to stand on.

    “Social Distancing” does not prevent the financial elites from providing instructions to corrupt politicians.

    On the other hand, “social distancing” combined with confinement is being used as a means of social subordination. It prevents people from meeting as well as protesting this so-called New World Order.

    Organization, Truth and Solidarity are essential to reversing the tide. The first step of a worldwide movement is “counter-propaganda”.

    Global Capitalism, “World Government” and the Corona Crisis

    I think it can be done and that many here are dedicated to the concept, but I have to admit I am feeling that the odds of success are slim to none at best, for three main reasons:

    • the financial elites owning/controlling/directing/censoring the flow of information, effectively controlling the narrative, making it exceptionally difficult to mount widespread, effective counter propaganda;
    • the unwillingness of the masses to consider alternative narratives that are uncomfortable to think about, and run counter to their well-ingrained belief systems which were formulated from upbringings in an inept, corrupt, class structured, discriminatory educational system that does nothing to foster real life or critical thinking skills, or exploration of alternative belief systems;
    • Point two further exacerbated by mass marketing/advertising system in cahoots with the financial system designed to create a perpetually indebted consumer class that went all in on the 'whoever has the most stuff wins' game, effectively placing them in lifelong servitude, with no power to leverage as a result.

    I do wrestle with the idea that it is too late, and that it is inevitable that this Fourth Turning will unfold in keeping with perceived historical turning cycles. In optimistic moments I retain a small measure of hope we can avoid any such supposed elitist agenda with an effective, organized, counter propaganda movement that can/will QUICKLY arise, spread, and get the necessary & united buy in & support on a scale sufficient to stop the nefarious evil. In pessimistic moments, I think can anyone realistically see that actually happening?

    Then my mind shifts yet again and I wonder if perhaps this is the karmic moment in time where humanity as a species is supposed to reap what it has sown. I do believe in karma. I do believe that what goes around comes around, including that which we we allow & tolerate to go around, whether through wilful participation, ignorance or indifference.  At times people use the term social contract in discussions about the virus; what we should and should not do as members of society. I think the concept goes well beyond that, choosing to believe that there is an Earth social contract as well. This virus, the resulting economic & social fall out, and everything that goes with it is not just about humans... we are just one species - one that has, with exceedingly parochial minds, ruthlessly dominated and disrespectfully decimated many other species and ecosystems, some to the point of no return. Who is rioting and protesting for them? For the trees? For the water, so critical to survival? For preservation of all that is precious, and sustainable, equitable prosperity for all ?

    Maybe this unfolding drama/crisis is the great reset that once and for all unequivocally signals that humans are not nearly as superior as we think we are, and we need our asses kicked, big time. I have to say, I think for the most part, we deserve it...

    The key question is, will humans learn anything from all of this and decide to join together to make the necessary systemic changes? Can integrity find its way back into our lives as a core foundational value and building block for all that we do? Will we let it?

    edit: the bullets points are not working for the three main points made and I cannot find a way to fix

    Jan

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  • Fri, Jun 12, 2020 - 1:11pm

    Mohammed Mast

    Mohammed Mast

    Status: Silver Member

    Joined: May 17 2017

    Posts: 829

    1

    Police

    THC once again you are shifting the conversation. You ask about the Fed and the 08 meltdown, well there were nationwide protests under the umbrella of Occupy Wall St, (OWS) There were encampments in cities all over the country. Well guess what happened the police were enlisted to destroy all those encampments. That was the end of the peaceful protests against the establishment. Perhaps the movement would have had more legs if it had gone violent and looted some banks? As I mentioned before JP Morgan paid the NYC PBA 4 million dollars and bingo there went the encampment in Zucotti park.

    I asked you before what is your solution? I am still waiting on your answer. It seems you are none to happy with the state of policing in this country. I guess along with everyone else you are powerless to effect change.

    It is no mystery as to why police are getting their share of abuse. Just look at the way the cops are dressed and look at the way the demonstrators are dressed. Look at the weapons cops have and the absence of weapons on the part of demonstrators. I took part in numerous civil rights and anti war demonstrations and we were just one word or one look away from violent confrontations. It is mostly the police in these situations that use either the threat of force or force.

    As you mentioned police do things for which they should be punished yet aren't. This is not lost on people. 127 complaints in 8 years in Minneapolis and NO prosecutions.

    It is not going to get better and probably will get worse. We already put more people in prison than any other country. It doesn't seem to work except for the corporations and private prison companies. There is the incentive right there. They get paid by the prisoner. BTW wasn't there a judge in Pa. who got busted for sentencing juvies to harsh sentences in return for cash?  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kids_for_cash_scandal

    We imprison somewhere around 1 out of every 130 people. That means there are a pretty large group here on PP who have been to jail statistically speaking of course. We account for 4.4 % of the world's population and 22% of the world's prisoners. We are either the most criminally inclined country in the world or there is an incentive lurking somewhere. Maybe the Amerikan Dream isn't working for a lot of people.

    We may or may not agree on a lot of things , but I think we can agree that the entire system sucks. We may even agree that there are no political solutions to the human condition. We may even agree that it is going to take a complete collapse and reset.

    Being a cop is a shitty job. Where I grew up the options were pretty limited. You either became a cop/fireman (members of my family) , a priest, or a criminal (there were some limited other options). I was not a cop/fireman, or priest.

    See you on the other side

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  • Fri, Jun 12, 2020 - 1:19pm

    Barbara

    Barbara

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    Joined: Dec 15 2009

    Posts: 182

    3

    Inappropriate use of "non-lethal" by so called "LEO"s

    Chris,

    I agree.  Tear gas and rubber bullets belong in riots, not anywhere near such peaceful protests.  Looters and vandals must be distinguished from peaceful protesters.

    When I was in college during Vietnam, I would have called myself a conservative law and order type, and was totally opposed to the violence on campus - until I, like every student on the UW campus, became a potential target of police violence.  We were tear gassed in our dorms, while the fools were shouting on their bullhorns for people to stay inside.  Like that works when they have just lobbed tear gas into the elevators and stairs in high rise dorms.
    I witnessed a girl sitting on the front steps of a small dorm on a quiet street.  A police car drove buy and seeing a "potential riot" of one, lobbed a tear gas canister directly at her.  It hit her leg.  We had to take her to the emergency room.  The injury was so serious it took days to get the internal bleeding to stop and she was in rehab for months.  Now there really were rioters in Madison at the time, but apparently police have a lot of trouble distinguishing protest from riot, as many of my activist friends describe from personal experiences like the one Chris describes.

    Another item for congress to add to it's bill - no injuring a peaceful protester, even if the powers that be don't want them there.  Police and other supposed "LEO" cannot instigate violence.  Those who do instigate violence can't call themselves "Law Enforcement", they're just another set of thugs.  And rioters and looters are NOT protestors, just thugs.

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  • Fri, Jun 12, 2020 - 4:17pm

    Janie-em

    Janie-em

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    Yes Mike, there need to be criminal investigations

    I agree with you, this kind of behavior needs to be investigated or it will just continue to go on. We also need  investigations into the forcing of discharged hospital Covid patients, back into nursing homes in NYC, spreading the virus there. People in government need to be held accountable for their actions, especially in times of a pandemic, so we don't make the same mistakes next time.

     

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  • Fri, Jun 12, 2020 - 5:21pm

    #58
    richcabot

    richcabot

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    Joined: Apr 05 2011

    Posts: 241

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    Update on Costa Rica?

    With the paucity of information about HCQ, what's going on in Costa Rica?  Some time ago you reported that national policy there was to treat early on with HCQ.  That's not a double-blind experiment but there must be a fair amount of accumulated medical evidence by now.

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  • Fri, Jun 12, 2020 - 5:28pm

    #59
    richcabot

    richcabot

    Status: Bronze Member

    Joined: Apr 05 2011

    Posts: 241

    2

    Thin Blue Line

    My understanding from the news is that Derek Chauvin had 12 brutality complaints an no punishments.  It's generally reported that prosecutors won't prosecute police brutality (unless forced to by cell phone video) because
    They need the police cooperation to prosecute regular cases
    Police officers cover for one another since they believe that it could be them being accused someday
    Police unions are powerful political forces and their endorsements often affect elections
    Police contracts require arbitration in the event of disputes and arbitrators invariably side with the officer/union
    The money paid out in settlements doesn't belong to any of the participants in the legal battle.  It's public money and there's generally lots more of that available.

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  • Fri, Jun 12, 2020 - 6:17pm

    Mohammed Mast

    Mohammed Mast

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    Joined: May 17 2017

    Posts: 829

    2

    Lovely Sentiments Jan

    Very well written as well.

    It is the end of empire and the looting which started in 08 is picking up speed.

    I think I am going to start writing a play. Some of the founding fathers are sitting around a table and an interviewer/moderator is reading out things like the news and current laws, etc. " Well gentlemen we now in 2020 have a private bank issuing the nations currency. Mr. Jefferson we will start with you. " Are you shitting me?" Moderator; Thank you Mr Jefferson. Moderator; "In the intervening years since the start of this country there have been an astounding number of inventions. We now have what are called airplanes which can take hundreds of people across the entire country in a matter of hours. To get on the plane all your personal belongings as well as your person must be searched. " The entire group; "Are you shitting us" Moderator "The supreme court recently ruled that the government can pass laws prohibiting the free exercise of religion" James Madison; " You mean there was a constitutional convention repealing the 1st Amendment? " Moderator; Uh no just a ruling by the supreme court" Group; "Are you shitting us?"

    I think it has real potential. Anyway I didn't mean to digress. Jan I used to vacillate just as you do thinking yeah real systemic change is possible. Then i realized I was simply projecting my desires on reality. That never seems to work out.

    This country's history can be written as the battle of the people against the banks. Hamilton sold everyone out with the first bank of the US. That meant that though we defeated the British king we lost immediately to the Bank of England. The people of the 19th century understood this perfectly. By 1913 the bank was able to take complete control and the US as a sovereign nation ceased to exist. Those banksters and their corporate allies are now in complete control. The change game is over. It is now the Resilience game. They are way ahead of anybody. They have all the resources at their disposal. Huxley and Orwell saw it decades ago.

    So the best we can do is grow a garden and kvetch

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  • Fri, Jun 12, 2020 - 6:56pm

    westcoastjan

    westcoastjan

    Status: Silver Member

    Joined: Jun 04 2012

    Posts: 465

    3

    Amen

    I concur, Mohammed, and thanks for your kind words. And your play would be most excellent, for those who get it. It might be a small box office though...

    I noticed something really cool while sitting on my deck last night: while watching my birds I noticed the Juncos zero in on the container planted with broccoli. With deft dexterity, they plucked leaf eating, rascally larvae of all sizes off the tender 6” plants, consuming them gleefully as if they were at the all you can eat buffet! Sweet!

    Such simple pleasures help me forget the rest of the world exists - at least for a few moments. Now if only I could train the Juncos to eradicate the rascally bugs that indiscriminately chew up the best of this world......... I’d start by directing their attention to the central bank worms & slugs - no question there will be a bountiful feast there!!

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  • Fri, Jun 12, 2020 - 9:13pm

    Mpup

    Mpup

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    Joined: Mar 01 2020

    Posts: 88

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    Reply to Thin Blue Line

    I'm not defending Mr. Chauvin's actions however reports of complaints against him differ,  Apparently there were 17 complaints against Mr. Chauvin over a 19 year period.  Without knowing specifics it would be impossible to know how many were warranted.  I would think it possible some of these complaints were made by those being arrested while breaking the law.  I am very skeptical of most of what I read in the MSM.  It is usually agenda driven.

    Edit to add:  If those protesting and rioting worked as hard at building relationships as tearing them down, they could change the world.

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  • Sun, Jun 14, 2020 - 8:53am

    #63
    Mohammed Mast

    Mohammed Mast

    Status: Silver Member

    Joined: May 17 2017

    Posts: 829

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    Derek Chauvin complaints

    This is an account of the complaints against Chauvin. I have no idea if that is a lot of complaints in a 19 year career or not. He received a reprimand for 2 of them. The police dept is not releasing what the nature of the complaints are.

    On another note his wife has filed for divorce.

    https://www.insider.com/derek-chauvin-minneapolis-police-background-life-2020-6

     

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  • Sun, Jun 14, 2020 - 10:28am

    stevedaly

    stevedaly

    Status: Bronze Member

    Joined: Apr 23 2020

    Posts: 144

    1

    Change the world

    "If those protesting and rioting worked as hard at building relationships as tearing them down, they could change the world."  On the other hand their Mom says how can they run the world if they can't even organize their own bedroom.

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  • Sun, Jun 14, 2020 - 10:46am

    #65
    tbp

    tbp

    Status: Gold Member

    Joined: Apr 12 2020

    Posts: 554

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    Consciousness Mechanics (metaphysics)

    @westcoastjan
    "I do wrestle with the idea that it is too late, and that it is inevitable that this Fourth Turning will unfold in keeping with perceived historical turning cycles. In optimistic moments I retain a small measure of hope we can avoid any such supposed elitist agenda with an effective, organized, counter propaganda movement that can/will QUICKLY arise, spread, and get the necessary & united buy in & support on a scale sufficient to stop the nefarious evil. In pessimistic moments, I think can anyone realistically see that actually happening?"

    Your perception is understandable and relatable. However, how it looks isn't really a very relevant factor. The ultimate secret is that it's not about what anyone else does; it's about YOU shifting yourself to a parallel reality already populated by people of like vibration: Consciousness Mechanics: The Movie {2016} What you (as your physical mind) put out is what you get back (from your higher self). You are the universe, literally; you've (we've) just created an illusion of separation (Maya), an idea/definition/belief of "self" and "not-self". Metaphysics is the ultimate secret. We're each souls incarnated here to remember who and what we are, to re-discover that from a new perspective, after temporarily forgetting between birth and the first few years as our brains (in theta state) receive programming from the culture and the control system, as part of the Earth game. There is no peril though; you (re-)discover this either during the incarnation or at the moment it's over.

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  • Sun, Jun 14, 2020 - 11:23am

    Ision

    Ision

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    Joined: Feb 07 2020

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    We are how Existence comes to know itself....

    We are all bits of Existence, trying to comprehend Existence.  In effect, we are all aspects of the same thing.

    There is no "outside" to Existence.  There is no "beyond" Existence.  There is only what Is...and nothing else.   Existence cannot be comprehended from without, but only from within, as Existence is where everything IS.  Any attempt to contemplate anything "outside" of Existence is an attempt to contemplate a non-place, where everything is NOT.

    No matter how many dimensions you postulate.  No matter how many Universes you postulate.  You cannot "escape" to a place where Identity is not, where Space is not, or, where Time is not.

    Consciousness itself is entirely dependent upon Exist existing, and Existence is NOT dependent upon your ability to fathom it, but YOU are dependent on your ability to fathom Existence.  If your intellect cannot, or will not, come to identify Existence, Existence will simply remove your intellect from it.  If you attempt to erase Existence with the power of your mind, Existence will erase you, instead.

    Imagine an eternal life of utter stagnation, where growth is impossible to you, as your intellect has achieved omniscience.

    What does an Omniscient Mind think about?   Nothing.  "Thinking" implies the existence of unknowns to ponder and evaluate, and an Omniscient Mind has no unknowns.  What is a mind, which does not think?

    Imagine an eternity of just watching the same episode of "Gilligan's Island" over an over.

    My fellow bits, ALL Gods struggle to die.  Struggle to escape the torments of stagnation and non-growth.

    And, when they succeed...

    We are the result.

     

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