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    Why Covid-19 Demands Our Full Attention

    This is an unprecedented moment for our hyper-connected planet
    by Chris Martenson

    Friday, February 14, 2020, 2:44 PM

There’s a reason we’ve re-directed so much of our attention towards reporting on and trying to understand the novel coronavirus (covid-19) that originated in Wuhan, China in December.

The heart of our approach is to be “systems thinkers.”

“Learn how to see.  Realize that everything connects to everything else”

~ Leonardo Davinci

We don’t see the economy as a closed ecosystem to be analyzed and understood all on its own.  It’s connected to energy flows, especially oil.  So we investigate those, too, with an eye towards working out how fossil fuels’ eventual dwindling will impact an economic system that is utterly dependent on perpetual growth.

Without a healthy planet, without intact and functioning ecological systems, nothing matters in either the economy or the energy markets.  Both impact the ecological world And vice versa.  So we analyze and report on the environment, too.

Which is why we’re confident in claiming that humanity is now facing its greatest threat.  Our current path of depleting our essential resources at an accelerating rate in the pursuit of “more growth” is both unsustainable and self-destructive.

So here we are, with a global economy that’s very cost-efficient but not resilient.  It’s wonderful that Walmart has worked out how to order a new tube of toothpaste from China the second one is pulled off a shelf in Topeka, KS. But that means there is no deep storage to draw upon in times of disruption to the status quo.  No warehouses stocked with 12 months of future goods.  Just a brilliantly-complicated supply chain thousands of miles long that has to work perfectly for things to keep running.

As an example that drives home this point: we learned during the 2011 earthquake in Japan that there was just one single factory making a necessary polymer gel for the odd-shaped lithium batteries used in smartphones and iPods.  There was no backup factory.

We watched closely during that enormous crisis (which also spawned the Fukushima nuclear disaster) as electronics companies scrambled to triage their remaining supplies and attempt to find new sources.  It was very touch and go.  Vast portions of the battery-fueled electronic industry came within a whisker of simply shutting down production — all for want of an esoteric polymer gel.

Yes, the most cost-effective way to make that gel was to house it all in a single plant.  But it made no sense from a redundancy and resilience standpoint.

And did ‘we’ learn from that experience?  Nope.

Supply Chain Armageddon

The global economy is more interdependent than ever. Its supply chains are built on a huge network of dependencies with many ‘single points of failure’ strung along its many branches.

Can anybody predict what will happen next?  No.

But we’re already seeing early failures as Chinese plants, factories and ports sit idle from the country’s massive quarantine efforts:

China set to lose out on production of 1M vehicles as coronavirus closes car plants

China exports about $70 billion worth of car parts and accessories globally, with roughly 20 percent going to the U.S.

Feb. 5, 2020, 4:32 PM EST

By Paul A. Eisenstein

China could suffer the loss of a million vehicles worth of production as factories in its crucial automotive industry remain shuttered until at least next week — and likely longer in Wuhan, the “motor city” at the center of the coronavirus outbreak.

With more than 24,000 people infected, the impact of the highly contagious disease is also beginning to be felt by automakers in other parts of the world. Hyundai is suspending production in its South Korean plants because of a shortage of Chinese-made parts, and even European car manufacturers could be hit: Volkswagen and BMW could see a dip of 5 percent in their earnings for the first half of 2020, according to research firm Bernstein.

(Source – NBC)

We’re predicting that these auto shutdowns are just beginning.  All it takes is a single component to be unavailable and the entire line has to be shut down.

Is China the sole source for many critical components in the auto industry?  Absolutely.

Here’s an inside view:

On Monday, Steve Banker and I had the opportunity to speak with Razat Gaurav, CEO of Llamasoft. Razat had some interesting takes on the outbreak, especially as it relates to the automotive and pharmaceutical supply chains. On average it takes 30,000 parts to make a finished automobile.

Due to the virus, production facilities have already indicated that they will have lower than normal parts volumes. This has left companies scrambling to make contingency plans. During my conversation with Razat, he mentioned that inventories for most of these automotive parts are managed on a lean just-in-time basis.

This means that, on average, companies have anywhere between two and twelve weeks of buffer inventory on-hand for automotive parts. As production volumes are decreasing, this has the potential to cause quite the global shortage of parts. The buffer inventory will only last so long, and once the pre-holiday supply runs dry, the industry is going to be in serious trouble. According to Gaurav: “Most OEMs single source components for new vehicles and China is a large supplier of those.”

(Source – Logistics Viewpoints)

“Single sourcing” is exactly what it implies.  There’s a single factory somewhere churning out a single component that is absolutely vital to make a motorized vehicle.  If that factory goes away for any length of time, a new source has to be identified or – worse, from a time and cost standpoint – built from scratch.

But this vulnerability to China-dependent supply chains is by no means unique to the auto industry:

Last month, the U.S.-China Economic and Security Review Commission held a hearing on the United States’ growing reliance on China’s pharmaceutical products. The topic reminded me of a spirited discussion described in Bob Woodward’s book, Fear: Trump in the White House.

In the discussion, Gary Cohn, then chief economic advisor to President Trump, argued against a trade war with China by invoking a Department of Commerce study that found that 97 percent of all antibiotics in the United States came from China.

(Source – CFR)

That’s as close to a ‘sole source’ as you can get.

And to put the cherry on top: guess the name of the region in China responsible for producing all if these antibiotics?  Yep, Hubei province.  With Wuhan its most important production hub.

Can we find another source for our generic drugs and antibiotics?  India, possibly.  But here again we run into the same global interdependency issue:

Another industry that is feeling the impact of the coronavirus is the pharmaceutical industry. The average buffer inventory for the pharmaceutical industry is between three and six months. However, this does not tell the full story. Gaurav mentioned that China is responsible for producing 40 percent of the active pharmaceutical ingredients (APIs) for the pharmaceutical world.

Additionally, China supplies 80 percent of key starting materials (KSM’s), which are the chemicals in APIs, to India. Put together, this represents 70 percent of all APIs across the world.

(Source – Logistics Viewpoints)

India’s production is directly tied to uninterrupted supply from China:

Indian generic drugmakers may face supply shortages from China if coronavirus drags on

Feb 13 (Reuters) – Shortages and potential price increases of generic drugs from India loom if the coronavirus outbreak disrupts suppliers of pharmaceutical ingredients in China past April, according to industry experts.

An important supplier of generic drugs to the world, Indian companies procure almost 70% of the active pharmaceutical ingredients (APIs) for their medicines from China.

India’s generic drugmakers say they currently have enough API supplies from China to cover their operations for up to about three months.

“We are comfortably placed with eight to 10 weeks of key inventory in place,” said Debabrata Chakravorty, head of global sourcing and supply chain for Lupin Ltd, adding that the company does have some local suppliers for ingredients.

Sun Pharmaceuticals Industries Ltd said it has sufficient inventory of API and raw materials for the short term and has not seen any major disruption in supplies at the moment.

The Indian drugmaker, however, said supply has been impacted for a few API products and the company is closely monitoring the situation. It did not identify the products.

India supplies nearly a third of medicines sold in the United States, the world’s largest and most lucrative healthcare market.

(Source)

Is this a huge concern?  Of course it is.

If you’re dependent in any way on prescription drugs, it would be entirely rational to chase down whether those come from China or India and, if they are, begin talks with your doctor about alternatives or what to do if supplies get pinched.

A Fast-Moving Situation

Look, we entirely get why the authorities and media are downplaying the covid-19 pandemic.  We really do.  They feel the need to manage the crisis, which means managing the public narrative.

But c’mon. Does it make any sense for Apple’s stock price to be up while its main Foxconn manufacturing facility is all but completely shuttered?

Fewer iPhones and Airpods being made should equate with lower future earnings and thus a lower stock price. But no, AAPL is up handily over the past month:

And this is even crazier. Does it make ANY sense for Boeing’s stock to be up $12 over the past month? As it reported its first year (2019) of NEGATIVE orders and a completely order-free January (2020)?  No, of course not.

But those are the sorts of ‘signals’ that the officials believe have to be sent in order to keep the masses from catching on that something really concerning is happening.

Unfortunately, such signals work on the masses.  Higher stock prices send a powerful comforting message that “all is well”.

But prudent critical thinkers, which defines those in the Peak Prosperity tribe, can readily see through the ruse and get busy preparing themselves for what’s coming.

It’s Time For Action

The situation with covid-19 is fluid, and fast-moving.  Staying on top of the breaking developments and making sense of them for you is our primary job.

But information without informed action is useless.

After all, knowing something concerning but then doing nothing about it is merely cause for anxiety if not alarm.

The only ways to remain calm and protect your loved ones from the threat of this pandemic are rooted in taking smart action.

Yes, we can all hope this blows over.  We sincerely wish the macro-planners all the best in shaping the narrative and keeping the macro economy somehow functioning and glued together.

But we’re going to prepare as best we can, here at our micro level because that’s our duty to ourselves, to our families, and to our communities.

Creating A Resilient Defense Against The Coronavirus

This is a huge moment in history.  The first global pandemic at a time when the world economy is sole-sourced and completely interdependent.

Nobody can predict what will happen next.  Autos, drugs…who knows what the next industry to stumble will be?

Given the ridiculously high rate of infectivity of covid-19 there’s really no chance of stopping its spread.  The rate is now just a equation of time, luck, and official actions to aggressively isolate and quarantine infected individuals and communities.

Our position affords us many experienced contacts with experts throughout the world, and those we know with deep medical training are preparing the most aggressively right now. This outbreak has their full attention; and that informs us that it should have ours, too.

Which is why our advice is to get busy preparing yourself now.

Last week we issued the guide How We’re Personally Preparing For The Coronavirus to our premium subscribers. It’s a great resource providing specific recommendations for prevention and treatment.

Today, we’re releasing an expanded companion guide A Resilient Defense Against The Coronavirus, again for our premium members.

Particularly useful for those who have recently found their way to PeakProsperity.com, it offers both a valuable framework to use in preparing for any disaster (including pandemics) and then details out specific action steps to take today across all aspects of your life (i.e., not just health & hygiene) against a coronavirus outbreak in your local area.

Click here to read this report (free executive summary, enrollment required for full access).

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302 Comments

  • Fri, Feb 14, 2020 - 2:52pm

    #1
    Truth9834

    Truth9834

    Status: Member

    Joined: Feb 05 2020

    Posts: 29

    4+

    If this virus gets bad

    If it gets bad ->

    It is not only the previous drugs (that you took to help cure you when you were infected the first time) that kill you when or if you are reinfected, its the weakened heart from the first infection.  A symptom of this virus is a beating heart rate at a very rapid pace for many days. This damages the heart. This is why a US doctor working with a coronavirus patient, administered medication to help the heart (slow it down) though it in theory this prolonged the recovery period. Better to be sick longer than get well quicker and destroy your heart in the process. This second infection, if common, means a much higher fatality rate.
    www.youtube.com/watch?v=ApT_7nlsY4M

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  • Fri, Feb 14, 2020 - 3:07pm

    #2
    Sparky1

    Sparky1

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    Chis' latest YT video premiering now: You Can Catch Covid-2019 More Than Once, And The 2nd Time May Be Deadlier

     

    You Can Catch The Coronavirus More Than Once, And The 2nd Time May Be Deadlier

    https://youtu.be/MwJ5thwr4C8

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  • Fri, Feb 14, 2020 - 3:19pm

    #3
    Matties

    Matties

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    Posts: 160

    5+

    This is a economic disaster

    I agree with Chris. This will be a financial disaster.

    Start stocking up...

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  • Fri, Feb 14, 2020 - 3:36pm

    #4
    Wolfbay

    Wolfbay

    Status: Member

    Joined: Oct 16 2011

    Posts: 10

    Ethnic group susceptibility

    Is there any more evidence that Asians might have a higher mortality rate than other groups? I don’t want anyone to get sick but if the Ace2 receptor theory turns out to be correct it might help to mitigate the severity of the pandemic in America.

    I also wonder about the pipes spreading the virus in an apartment. If there is a common entrance and staircases and elevators isn’t it much more likely that the spread was from direct contact?

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  • Fri, Feb 14, 2020 - 3:48pm

    Sparky1

    Sparky1

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    1+

    Chris' latest video: intense and full of info; a lot of trolls

    Whew, that was intense and disconcerting information! 8,000+ viewers live. Some difficulties in getting the trolls under control by the moderator (Adam?) but got better over time. One especially troubling comment: "I wore a mask to my doctor's office visit and they asked me to remove it because it was scaring the other patients." WTH! :-/

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  • Fri, Feb 14, 2020 - 4:49pm

    #6

    ktruddymd

    Status: Member

    Joined: Nov 12 2010

    Posts: 15

    6+

    Something to think about: Scientific Name of COVID-19 is actually SARS-Corona Virus-2.

    Chris (or anyone who may be familiar with the subject),

    Scientists have given COVID-19 the official (technical) name, SARS-Corona Virus-2.  SARS-Corona Virus-1 was the agent responsible for "SARS" of 2002/3 fame.   Does the name "SARS-Corona Virus-2" imply that COVID-19 shares a genetic lineage with SARS?

    If so, what might that tell us about COVID-19, and what else might we infer from its scientific nomenclature?

    Besides, of course, that developing a safe and effective vaccine to SARS-Corona virus-2 might be as tricky as making one against SARS-Corona virus-1; that is, impossible - at least in time to fix this problem.

    Thanks,  Doc

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  • Fri, Feb 14, 2020 - 4:53pm

    ktruddymd

    Status: Member

    Joined: Nov 12 2010

    Posts: 15

    1+

    ACE inhibitor

    A common and, I presume, cheap anti-hypertensive medication in widespread use.

    Would it help patients with cardiac complications of COVID-19?

    Time for a study?

    Doc

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  • Fri, Feb 14, 2020 - 5:12pm

    #8
    westcoastjan

    westcoastjan

    Status: Silver Member

    Joined: Jun 04 2012

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    1+

    BC update

    B.C. identifies 5th presumptive case of COVID-19, woman who travelled near Shanghai

    As per the article it appears this person travelled to the interior of BC so a potential spread risk outside of the Vancouver/lower mainland region

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  • Fri, Feb 14, 2020 - 5:23pm

    #9
    Wayne Swanson

    Wayne Swanson

    Status: Member

    Joined: Nov 29 2014

    Posts: 10

    3+

    Stock up on meds

    I think that it might be prudent to stock up on as much of one's necessary meds as possible. I was able to obtain an additional 3 months of a med that I must take simply by not running it through insurance and paying cash instead, not that it was high-priced at all. As Chris mentioned, so many pharmaceuticals are produced in China, that even if they are still produced elsewhere, there are liable to be shortages. Time re be proactive in this regard.

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  • Fri, Feb 14, 2020 - 5:26pm

    #10

    AKGrannyWGrit

    Status: Silver Member

    Joined: Feb 06 2011

    Posts: 1019

    1+

    BC Update

    Hope you are diligent with hand-washing and avoiding public places Jan.

    Keep us posted and stay well!

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  • Fri, Feb 14, 2020 - 5:26pm

    #11
    Ollagri

    Ollagri

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    Ollagri said:

    Looks like plant based diet it’s a solution to contain the covid 2019 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5857604/?fbclid=IwAR2XRtqcXxFT2TDAq-UbAk8R68O-uoGbvxiww2GoxJKe7XW8uBcVFBVdB9s

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  • Fri, Feb 14, 2020 - 5:37pm

    MKI

    MKI

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    If this virus gets bad

    One of the things that amaze me about people is the inability to weigh individual risk if it gets bad. This coronavirus is a classic example.

    I've personally had two bosses, both under 60, die of heart disease with little warning. Neither were very much overweight, nor were visibly unhealthy. I also know many young folk with autoimmune diseases, slipped disks, , pre-diabetic, and/or are overweight. And then there is driving and lack of daily exercise. It goes on and on, massive known, serious risks, that most of us engage in daily without a thought.

    Yet strangely these massive risks to life (and quality of life) attract little concern. I'll never understand this.

    OTOH, consider this virus. What are the odds of it killing any person under 65 who eats lots of organic veggies/meat with no processed food, has a waist/height ratio <0.45, and lifts daily? Basically, none. Far, far less than 0.1%. There is even an easy to make verify such a negligible risk: If one hasn't been sick in years. If so, have little fear of the coronavirus (or any other) until it's killing over 20% of our extremely unhealthy nation.

    Summary: People would be far more effective in virus risk management by working hard to stay solidly healthy, rather than working very hard to avoid sickness, which is like living behind the Maginot Line . And there are simple metrics to target in order to test one's preparedness: weight/height ratio <0.45.  A health/lifestyle that never gets the regular flu, year after year. Be able to bench/squat/deadlift body weight 10 reps.

    I would put the odds <0.1% of anyone, any age, who can meet the above metrics from perishing from any virus until over 1/4 of the US population has already died from it. But sadly, preparing by just living healthy will never be as sexy as a fleeing a pandemic. Risk management and the human brain are rarely on speaking terms.

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  • Fri, Feb 14, 2020 - 5:41pm

    westcoastjan

    westcoastjan

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    Joined: Jun 04 2012

    Posts: 439

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    Thanks Granny!

    I am doing my due diligence and using all this great info to try to stay healthy and prepared for any eventuality! My poor hands are so dried out from all the washing and hand sanitizer use. And to think rough hands from gardening has not even started yet!! [Note to self, supply of good hand cream needed to get through this... 😉 ]

    Jan

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  • Fri, Feb 14, 2020 - 5:43pm

    #14
    nordicjack

    nordicjack

    Status: Silver Member

    Joined: Feb 03 2020

    Posts: 590

    just trying to get last minute prep - i did some earlier

    but its seems too late.. I dont have the right masks - now its airborne.   cant get masks from uline unless previous buyer before jan 1.  does anyone know one?     also, bought sanitizing uv light from amazon a week or so ago.. seems most are unavailable now.. or with future arrival date..  - i think the window is closing.. or almost closed.. its happening.

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  • Fri, Feb 14, 2020 - 5:46pm

    centroid

    centroid

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    centroid said:

    a financial disaster, which could be a good thing. when the fraud of the fiat money system is exposed then maybe we will return to hard money

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  • Fri, Feb 14, 2020 - 6:01pm

    #16
    ezlxq1949

    ezlxq1949

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    Poor quality control of antibiotics

    If 97% of the USA's antibiotics come from Hubei province and are affected by poor quality control issues, then current death rates in the US reflect that already. Maybe fewer people would get sick and die if they went off antibiotics?

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  • Fri, Feb 14, 2020 - 6:05pm

    #17
    greendoc

    greendoc

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    Answers to some questions if this thread.

    Sorry for redundancy, I am simply cutting and pasting previous posts from other threads here to help answer folks questions so Chris and Adam do not need to do so

    The Asian male ACE2 expression has been disproven. ACE II is not ACE2

    The stickler in me keeps wanting to correct these incorrect comments that appear here. Let’s get our facts straight. Read post #59 in this thread https://www.peakprosperity.com/coronavirus-what-we-can-say-publicly-what-we-cant/ for a deeper explanation.

    In fact, a just published (not peer reviewed paper) of many more lung tissue samples from Asians and Caucausians saw no difference in ACE2 expression between the two groups. They did however see that smokers had higher expression.

    Thank you David (post #63) for posting the link to this paper
    https://www.preprints.org/manuscript/202002.0051/v1

    Published by Guoshuai Cai, Professor
    Department of Environmental Health Sciences, Arnold School of Public Health, University of South Carolina, Columbia, SC

    These methodologies and conclusions seem legitimate. This is the kind of replication studies that are needed to reinforce or disprove the observation seen in one tissue sample from a single Asian male. This larger study disproves that theory. This is how science is supposed to work. come up with a hypothesis, test it, report observations, keep repeating in larger samples and see if you get the same/different result, as in keep testing your hypothesis. I would say this is a very opposite result from the paper that only looked at 8 samples, one being asian male.  So that is a failed hypothesis.

    ACE II stands for ACE Insertion/Insertion…it is a very common mutation in the ACE gene….it has absolutely nothing to do with ACE2.  ACE and ACE2 are two different genes entirely.

    ACE Angiotensin-converting enzyme is on chromosome 17

    ACE2 Angiotensin converting enzyme 2 in on the X chromosome (so potentially women who have two X chromosomes may have more expression of ACE2 than men, who have only one X chromosome).

    SARS severity in Asians does not appear to be related to genetic variants of ACE2.

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15331509

    ACE2 gene polymorphisms do not affect outcome of severe acute respiratory syndrome.

    We therefore conclude that although ACE2 serves functionally as the receptor for entry of the SARS coronavirus into human host cells, the evidence provided by this study does not support an association between its common genetic variants and SARS susceptibility or outcome. Despite its X-chromosome location, poor outcomes in male SARS patients do not appear to be related to genetic variants of ACE2.

    ARBs and ACE inhibitors won’t help

    There seems to be alot of confusion/confounding here of ACE and ACE2.  It is easy to confuse for sure, science does a crappy job naming things (they all sound so alike but they are different!)  which creates these misunderstandings.  Maybe this can help.

    ACE is a gene called Angiotensin I Converting Enzyme.  This gene encodes an enzyme involved in catalyzing the conversion of angiotensin I into a physiologically active peptide angiotensin II. Angiotensin II is a potent vasopressor and aldosterone-stimulating peptide that controls blood pressure and fluid-electrolyte balance. This enzyme plays a key role in the renin-angiotensin system. Many studies have associated the presence or absence of a 287 bp Alu repeat element in this gene with the levels of circulating enzyme or cardiovascular pathophysiologies.  This mutation is commonly referred to as the ACE insertion/deletion or, more simply ACE I/D.  The relative frequency of this mutation in various ethnic populations worldwide has been of interest to scientists (As are the population frequencies of many other mutations in hundreds of genes) as they have bearing on diseases, medications, etc.  ACE is NOT related to 2019 novel CoV or SARS at all.

    ACE inhibitors produce vasodilation by inhibiting the formation of angiotensin II. (Which is NOT ACE2) This molecule is a potent vasoconstrictor  formed by the proteolytic action of renin (released by the kidneys) acting on circulating angiotensinogen to form angiotensin I.

    ACE inhibitors end with -pril: benazepril (Lotensin, Lotensin Hct); captopril (Capoten); enalapril (Vasotec); fosinopril (Monopril); lisinopril (Prinivil, Zestril). These medications have nothing to do with Coronaviruses.

    Much has been made about the non-peer reviewed study that ACE2 is the putative (considered to be based on available evidence)receptor for the spike protein of novel CoV (and likely this seems true)  but even more has been said here by commenters that Asian males are more susceptible because they hav higher expression of ACE2 in lung cells.

    https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.01.26.919985v1

    I want to say that study was done on EIGHT samples from a tissue bank of lung tissue from healthy donors.  ONE of those samples came from a Asian male and in this tissue sample ACE2 expression was found to be much higher than in other samples, and ACE2 was also being expressed in more cell types. The authors SPECULATE that this observation may underlie the virulence for novel CoV in Asians.

    First:  this sample size is ridiculously small, it is NOT established fact. It is a very interesting observation that needs to be replicated by another research group in a much larger cohort.  I am not a statistician, but there are guidelines for sample size needed in order to obtain results that can be statistically significant.  That sample size of EIGHT was insufficiently powered.  You can read more here: https://www.statisticsdonewrong.com/power.html

    So, if someone looked at tissue samples from 1000 people, 250 each: Africans, Caucasians, Asians and Latinos of roughly half male/female you might get a better idea of the actual ACE2 expression pattern as it varies by ethnicity.  BTW: I am not a statistician, so 1000 might not be sufficiently powered (or may be overpowered) …but you get the idea.

    Also, when you read the comments associated with this study, several people (way smarter than me, who work in this area of science) point out some problems with the methodologies used in the research. I cannot comment on this, as I am not a subject matter expert in this area, but I am very clear this happens alot…..it is only people who work in these highly specialized niche areas of research who can understand these subtleties.

    But what about ACE2?  https://www.genecards.org/cgi-bin/carddisp.pl?gene=ACE2&keywords=ACE2

    First, it is not ACE, it is also not angiotensin II.

    ACE2 (Angiotensin I Converting Enzyme 2) is a gene that encodes an enzyme which converts angiotensin I to angiotensin 1-9, a peptide of unknown function, and angiotensin II to angiotensin 1-7, a vasodilator (PubMed:10969042, PubMed:10924499, PubMed:11815627). Also able to hydrolyze apelin-13 and dynorphin-13 with high efficiency (PubMed:11815627). By cleavage of angiotensin II, may be an important regulator of heart function (PubMed:10969042, PubMed:10924499). By cleavage of angiotensin II, may also have a protective role in acute lung injury (By similarity). Plays an important role in amino acid transport by acting as binding partner of amino acid transporter SL6A19 in intestine, regulating trafficking, expression on the cell surface, and its catalytic activity (PubMed:18424768, PubMed:19185582). ACE2_HUMAN,Q9BYF1

    ACE2 also acts as a receptor for SARS coronavirus/SARS-CoV. ACE2_HUMAN,Q9BYF1

    What apparently makes novel CoV so serious for some is this surface expression of ACE2 protein on lung alveolar epithelial cells.  ACE2 is poorly expressed in the upper respiratory tract: nose, sinus tissue, throat, but gets expressed in the lung.  Hence, many people develop a fever and shortness of breathe, pneumonia and never really get a “cold” prior: sneezing, sore throat.

    In short high/upregulated ACE is bad: think high blood pressure. Hence ACE inhibitors to block it.

    ACE2 is good. An upregulated ACE2 (not angiotensin II)  is actually regarded beneficial in cardiovascular and kidney disease.  Perhaps having alot of ACE2 expressed in lung tissue ends up being bad for CoV infection though…and the result of that infection is the down regulation/inhibition of ACE2’s positive effects.

    Stephen Buhner mentions in his book, page 55: “SARS viruses attach to ACE-2 on the surface of lung, lymph, and spleen epithelial cells. (Licorice, Chinese skullcap, luteolin, horse chestnut, Polygonum spp., Rheum officinale, and plants high in pro- cyanidins and lectins such as elder and cinnamon block attachment to varying degrees.)”.   Unfortunately the research supporting this statement tends to be highly technical in-vitro experiments with purified constituents, not real life/in vivo clinical trials involving 2019 novel coronavirus.  But hey, it is something to look at seriously.  Herbs are powerful used correctly.

    And what about using ARBs? These drugs end in -sartan.  Azilsartan (Edarbi); candesartan (Atacand), valsartan (Diovan); losartan (Cozaar); olmesartan (Benicar).

    ARB stands for AT1R blockers and they represent a major class of antihypertensive medications.

    Angiotensin-II (not ACE2) activates two major types of receptors, angiotensin II type one (AT1R) and type two (AT2R) receptors. While AT1R is widely expressed and mediates most inflammatory Ang-II effects (bad), AT2R, is less expressed and has opposite effects, promoting vasodilation and anti-inflammatory effects [1] . Physiologically, AT2R actions are usually masked by the more abundant AT1R. It has been suggested that ARBs can mediate their action through increasing angiotensin II (Ang II) availability to bind to the beneficial angiotensin type 2 receptor (AT2R), thus leading to unopposed AT2R stimulation.

    So long story short, ARBs do not block the gene or the enzyme ACE2.  They block the receptor for Angiotensin 2 (AT1R: which is produced by ACE, not ACE2).

    I know, it is crazy to sort out. But trust me, ACE inhibitors and ARBs have nothing to do with fighting coronavirus infection.  What is needed are antiviral meds or herbs that work on multiple levels:

    1. Block the receptor on ACE2 so the spike protein of novel CoA cannot attach
    2. Stop the endocytosis of the virus into the cell
    3. Stop/slow viral replication with in the cell.
    4. Activation of host defense systems
    5. Many other strategies: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25108320

    Claire, yes, I am a doctor, a naturopathic physician, 8 years of postgraduate schooling and 5 years as a research scientist.

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  • Fri, Feb 14, 2020 - 6:05pm

    ezlxq1949

    ezlxq1949

    Status: Bronze Member

    Joined: Apr 29 2009

    Posts: 364

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    Unusual source of respirators

    Yesterday I bought a box of 12, Vietnamese-made respirators in a lighting shop of all places.

    "What prompted you to stock these?", I asked.

    "Oh, we were having quite a lot of customers inquire about them during the bushfires and all that smoke, so we thought we might as well make them available." Some of their customers would be tradesmen working outside on bad air days.

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  • Fri, Feb 14, 2020 - 6:15pm

    #19
    nordicjack

    nordicjack

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    Yes this is a game changer - our lives will changed forever.

    There is one thing I am certain.  This is game changer, never will our world be the same.  I am not certain of what changes there will be, But remember HIV and how that changed how we do things in the medical setting and other settings.   Remember the world trade centers and how they changed how we travel.. Well, this will certainly change the way we do things in the future and it will change things now.   For sure this is a game changer.

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  • Fri, Feb 14, 2020 - 6:18pm

    Snow Eater

    Snow Eater

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    BC case

    Oh well that's just terrific. I happen to live in the interior of BC. It sure would be bloody handy to know where exactly she went!

    I will take it as good news that she wore a mask on the flight. But how realistic is that really? Flights from China to Vancouver must be very very long. She must have eaten and had a drink of water at least once. It can't be comfortable to wear a mask that long. It would become very wet, for one thing.

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  • Fri, Feb 14, 2020 - 6:21pm

    Nairobi

    Nairobi

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    Hate to pop the gold bubble but....

    The one notable financial feature of this epidemic is that it makes people fearful of touching paper money. So I doubt the outcome will be a return to an older physical money like gold and silver coins. What will follow instead is a comprehensive  digital currency regime. People will demand it given the level of fear we are seeing in China already. The shift to a fully digitized payment system is just around the corner anyway. It's already been in development and discussed for some time already and I suspect it could be ready for swift deployment if the authorities put their minds too it. Mr Xi will not likely miss this opportunity since it is the ultimate population control mechanism.

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  • Fri, Feb 14, 2020 - 6:22pm

    Redreamer

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    Redreamer said:

    While i commend your approach to living healthy - you do not seem to understand why people die from NOVEL new virus like this one.

    The issue here that matters is the bodies response to a virus that has not been seen before. The IMMUNE RESPONSE ITSELF is what kills people. The response kills healthy tissue as well as the invading virus. This over active response 'cytokine storm' is in fact the trigger for death. A cytokine response - varies in individuals. Those that mount an over the top response biologically eventually succumb. Plenty of evidence in peer reviewed literature that supports this.

    You might want to dig a little deeper.

    https://www.sinobiological.com/cytokine-storm-cytokine-storms-a-5800.html

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  • Fri, Feb 14, 2020 - 6:23pm

    #23

    dtrammel

    Status: Silver Member

    Joined: May 03 2011

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    UV Light Sanitizers - My Choices

    Haven't bought one yet but I'm leaning towards these two:

    https://www.amazon.com/Sterilizer-Sanitiser-Hospital-Strength-Sterilizes/dp/B07W7HSDPZ/

    This is a larger capacity model that I could do masks, tools, EDC components, stuff that I bring in.

    https://www.amazon.com/UPGRADED-Sterilizer-Machine-Ultraviolet-Professional/dp/B07WWLD1JF/

    This is a smaller capacity model that would handle cell phones and keys.

    Both get high ratings. I'll be buying both this weekend, hopefully I'll get in before they go out of stock.

    Unfortunately I have to stock food and equip two locations, my home and my sisters at the start of this thing. She's not quite convinced to go all in on preparing, so I'm acquiring supplies and food, that I can shift over there in the event this worsens.

    For those that haven't been in the discussion on this, ultra violet light can kill virus and germs. You would set this up at your entrance then when you come home, put the hard items you carried with you outside, like cell phone, keys, pens, or glasses into this and sterilize them before using them in your home.

    Shoes would be taken off and set into a shallow tub of bleach and water to disinfect the soles.

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  • Fri, Feb 14, 2020 - 6:27pm

    dtrammel

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    Joined: May 03 2011

    Posts: 800

    7+

    Don't Forget Getting 8 Hours Of Sleep

    Dr Seheult on Medcram has been going over the proven medical benefits of good sleep habits and how they can help your immune system. Good videos that compliment what Chris here is posting.

    This one first: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wlbM6VVkVZM&t=1s

    Then this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vE4pBkslqS4

     

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  • Fri, Feb 14, 2020 - 6:50pm

    #25
    Nate

    Nate

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    demographics of peak prosperity

    My view from 30 thousand feet is that 80% of the general population will not be affected by Covid-19.   Individuals of compromised health and over 60 will bear the brunt of this virus.  The average poster on peak prosperity is a white male in his 60's.  The average member on this website is at greater risk than the general population.  The thought of losing long time members - folks I really like and respect - is hard to deal with.  Really don't want to think about it.

    The past week an elderly couple at church were no shows.  I was talking with my pastor and he said they were on one of the cruise ships that was quarantined.  Both individuals have been moved to a Japanese hospital.  Status - the male has tested positive for Covid-19 and is probably not going to make it.  His children are still in the states and can't say their good-byes in person.  My biggest concern is for the kids <5 years old (like my grandson).  My prayer life has been moved up a couple of notches.

     

     

     

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  • Fri, Feb 14, 2020 - 6:52pm

    westcoastjan

    westcoastjan

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    Joined: Jun 04 2012

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    Agreed, and it is not just about the flight

    She drove to the interior so potentially infected gas station, restaurant, or rest stop personnel & other customers, used washrooms and so on. So even if she is not in your community she may have infected someone along the way who is, and that someone is totally oblivious as they go about their life. It well illustrates why containment is not possible.

    The authorities are doing their utmost to minimize panic by not giving much detail but in doing so fomenting distrust. All a person can do is pay attention and prepare according to perceived risk. I think it is prudent to assume it will at some point arrive in your community. If you know that and use that info to plan your strategies you are, at this stage, miles ahead of most everyone else. Information is power but only if you use it to your benefit. Be well and good luck!

    Jan

     

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  • Fri, Feb 14, 2020 - 6:57pm

    westcoastjan

    westcoastjan

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    Joined: Jun 04 2012

    Posts: 439

    3+

    Oh that sucks...

    So sorry to hear that Nate! You have highlighted unforseen consequences... so many eventualities to ponder with this thing!  Geez...

    Stay well,

    Jan

     

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  • Fri, Feb 14, 2020 - 7:28pm

    #28
    Ben Burke

    Ben Burke

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    Joined: Aug 17 2019

    Posts: 14

    walking the fine line in terms of news sources

    I guess the last coupe of decades of MSM lockstep has prepared us in some ways to be a bit more discerning. While I can't vouch for the veracity of this, I've found Simone Gao's Zooming In channel to be valuable (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCVWMVBg1RPrDlakdmbyTKBA)

    Simone is clearly taken seriously by media, getting opportunities to ask questions at CDC press conferences.

    Sadly, I won't be mentioning this in conversation with my Chinese friends, where mention of Falun Gong will spark all kinds of agitation.

    Check out today's show and decide for yourself https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5-nv7j9HEgY

     

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  • Fri, Feb 14, 2020 - 7:28pm

    #29

    dtrammel

    Status: Silver Member

    Joined: May 03 2011

    Posts: 800

    12+

    Preparations By Category - Revised 2/14

    This is a repost of something I did last week, with some revisions and additions. Hopefully it will help those of you thinking about preparing a deep pantry for the first time with suggestions on how and what to get, as well as point out a few places you forgot for those of you who already have a deep pantry.

    ----

    Several of you have asked for suggestions and recommendations on what to buy to fill out your deep pantry and hopefully help get you though this crisis.

    Rather than give a list of specific supplies for those of you new to preparing and stockpiling a deep pantry, I want to offer a list of supplies by categories, in the hopes this will make you think about your own personal situation and choose wisely, as well as see where you have overlooked a needed supply.

    Very few of us can go out and spend thousands of dollars just before an emergency to create a deep pantry. That is why we recommend you do it in stages and over the course of months before a crisis hits. Unfortunately this isn't the case now.

    In this case, given the rapidly growing threat of a global pandemic, you will need to prioritize what you stockpile, and consider how quickly you can do it. Not all of us are in the same danger as others.

    Pandemics go through a time progression which looks something like this:

    1) Localized Outbreak:
    2) Small Regional Spread
    4) Large Regional Outbreak
    4) Trans-Regional Spread
    5) Mass Infections Across National Boundaries
    6) Hot House State/Global Infection
    7) Outbreak Burnout (either within regions or globally)
    8) Post Outbreak Aftermath

    9) Possible Second Wave - More Severe Than The First?

    Each of these phases has preparation that you need to do, progressing and building on the ones before it.

    They also are not universal. Not everyone is going to need to go completely bonkers yet stocking up.

    The Large Regional outbreak in China, which is now progressing into a Trans-Regional Outbreak in the Asian Rim requires certain drastic preparations that for someone in the rural portions of the United States does not yet need. They can take their time and acquire supplies over a much longer prep time than someone in China right now.

    And yet, China is the manufacturing center of the global economy. So someone in a phase that doesn’t need a measure of preparation later phases do, like that rural person, may still need to up their own preparation because resources are going to be scarce soon.

    But you should remember, YOU HAVE AT LEAST A LITTLE TIME TO GET READY.

    Let's look at some categories then.

    ---

    1) Life Critical Medicines:

    These are supplies you need to keep yourself alive normally, ignoring the current crisis. As Chris has pointed out, China is the World's medicine chest. They supply raw materials and finished products which are rapidly running out. This will effect everyone.

    Are you diabetic? Do you take medicines on a regular basis? Does any of your family take them? If so, then you need to schedule an appointment with your doctor or pharmacist and talk to them about prescribing a larger supply of your current medications. Also stockpile any equipment you need to give those meds, like syringes, or test strips.

    Importantly, are you or your partner pregnant?

    Giving birth in a pandemic can be particularly challenging. Consider how you might stockpile if you think you may have to do a home birth during a period of self quarantine. Rather than a hospital deliver, investigate midwife services. Consider birth control and stockpile for it. Its a given that any self quarantine may be boring, and people bored sometimes choose to entertain themselves in a more personal nature. Seek additional supplies of birth control pills or a supply of condoms.

    Think not just about yourself but also any elderly family members who don't live with you. You may decide to bring them into your home with you for protection. They may not see the current crisis as worrisome, and ignore or downplay the need to stockpile but you can always address it as a supply problem. Imports from China, including medicines are being impacted by their national quarantine. Important medications may not be there if they wait.

    ---

    2) Children and Their Needs:
    I'm not a parent, nor do I have children, so I'm going to offer this section from an outsider's perspective.

    Children and their needs depends a lot on their ages. Those who are pre-kindergarten, have different requirements from those who are in grade school, as do those from children in their teens.

    While children, like any of us needs food, to me children in particular have a need for distraction. That is, they may have varying levels of understanding of the crisis and the reason they must stay inside and not go out. Entertainment and educational resources will go a long way to keeping young children happy and distracted.

    Older children with an honest discussion between you and them can and will help out if given the opportunity, if you explain the importance to them. Consider devoting in the opening phases of your stockpiling, a portion to buy supplies that keep your children busy and entertained. Look to what books, games or DVDs you have on hand.

    Don't forget educational supplies. If conditions worsen schools will be one of the first things closed. Take some time to speak with your children's teachers and ask them if there are plans to address school closures. I doubt there are but your questions may prompt teachers and school administrators to put plans in place.

    Get a library card from your local public library. Most have online catalogs and allow you to request books that way. You can then walk straight in, pick up your requests and walk out with minimal exposure. This also allows for variety in your childrens' entertainment and education.

    ---

    3) Pets:
    Don't forget your non-human companions. Stockpile meds if needed. You might think that you could just give them table scraps in a dire situation, but their health will suffer. Look for pet food on discount if money is tight but be aware changing foods can cause diarrhea and digestion problems. Make food changes slowly. Pets can help tremendously in lowing stress and providing comfort. Don't neglect their welfare.

    Don't have a pet? Consider volunteering at a nearby shelter. People will get sick and be unable to help out. Nothing more sad than to imagine animals slowly dieing for lack of food or water because no one is there. Consider being a foster too. Having a new animal in the house can provide distraction and help with boredom and stress. And as a foster, after the crisis passes, you can return the animal.

    AND NO: Animals do not carry or transmit this virus, unless someone infected sneezes on their fur and you stick your face in it right afterwards.

    ---

    4) Transportation:
    Beginning tomorrow, fill you car's gasoline tank at 3/4. Yes, that means you will be stopping to fill a lot. Get used to it.

    Transportation is your lifeline to supplies and support. In a city wide lock down, there will be no ambulances, no mass transit. While I don't expect electrical service will be disrupted beyond minor blackouts, remember both ATMs and gas pumps don't work without electricity. If you have the money, consider stockpiling one tank's worth of gasoline with your deep pantry. Remember you will need to use and rotate any stored fuel if kept more than a few months.

    Consider too cooking fuels. You may at some point need to consider cooking on an alternative method that your normal one. A small barbecue with a bag of stored charcoal, or something bigger like a small camp stove with propane or liquid fuel may need to be factored into your prep.

    ---
    5) Water and the Toilet:

    Begin by putting a large plastic tote in the shower and fill it. This can provide a small source of usable water to flush with if needed and can be stepped around to take a shower. Be careful, falls and slips can injure you as easily as the virus can.

    Remember, you have 20-30 gallons in your water heater, which you can access if you need to. Do a Youtube search and watch how to open and drain your water heater. In many cases domestic water heaters have a build up in mineral scalings, which may drain with the water. Best consider this a source of water for flushing your toilet and not for drinking.

    If the water does temporally shut off, remember to conserve. Many people forget that, and flush as they would normally, wasting precious water. Put a bottle of common bleach in the bathroom. After you use the toilet, pour a small amount into the soiled water and only flush when waste becomes a problem. Just because it smells a little doesn't mean it can't sit for a bit.

    Pick up a few bottles of toilet cleaner too, then before you go to bed, flush and pour some in the bowl to help sanitize and keep bacteria from growing.

    Something else, buy lots of toilet paper. You can go hungry but if you can't wipe your butt, you are not going to be happy. Stock up on feminine hygiene products too if needed.

    Consider buying at least some sealed drinkable water containers. Humans need about a gallon a day, either through food, juices or water. Plan for that. Most grocery stores have fillable water jugs and it runs about $1 per gallon. Remember though, water is heavy. Don't stack too much in one place in your home.

    1 gallon milk jug size water containers, prefilled and sanitized are available at the grocery store. Personally I went a size larger. My store has 2 1/2 gallon prefilled containers, which each have a spout for use. I like them because they are not too heavy to carry and if needed can be traded or given to an off site family member or friend. At a minimum, I would stockpile 20 gallons a person.

    If you have the money pick up one or two plastic 55 gallon drums and fill them with drinkable water. Remember water weighs about 9lbs per gallon, a 55 gallon drum weights around 450lbs. Put them in your basement, garage or where the weight won't matter.

    ---
    6) Heat, Cooling and Lighting:
    For those of us in North America, we are headed out of the Winter. Heating except in an unexpected cold snap will be less of a problem, one that heavy blankets on the bed and a sweater worn inside may solve. For those of you in the South Hemisphere, you need to consider what the approaching Winter will do to your home and preparations, if power and fuel is interrupted. We can actually live in unheated environments, and our ancestors did so.

    Same with cooling, though its likely that the Corona virus will decrease when warmer weathers become common.

    For lighting in a electrical disruption, candles may seem romantic but there are many newer led camp lights which last a long time on batteries. Get one, and get at least one replacement of batteries. Get half a dozen small flashlights too. Put them at doors, bathroom especially and have everyone in the household keep one on their person.

    Don't forget getting some matches and a few lighters.

    IMPORTANT: Buy a couple of fire extinguishers if you don't have one. Put one in the kitchen and another next to each person's bed. Talk about how you will exit the house in an emergency and where you will all meet up with your family.

    Change the batteries in your smoke detectors this week. Stock up on replacement batteries for your common devices. Consider rechargeable batteries and a solar charger too.

    ---
    7) Money and Capital Resources:
    A lot of us have several credit cards, and they should be considered a usable resource if needed. Don't hesitate to rack up some debt if you have to in this crisis. Just be wise about it, remember you are going to have to pay it back eventually.

    Consider putting at least a few hundred dollars in cash at home, in small denomination bills. If you can, up that to $500 or more. While I doubt it might happen, a very serious crisis could cause bank runs or government interventions which make your savings and financial resources unreachable.

    Its quite possible that during this crisis there will be computer disruptions and your cards, both credit and debit, may be declined. Have with you an amount of cash will allow you to buy needed supplies. An yet, be careful and don't flash large amounts of easily stolen cash. Put a smaller amount ($20-30) in a pocket that you can access, and the rest safely hidden.

    Also consider paying your utilities and monthly bills in advance at least one month. I'm not sure how this crisis will effect billing and such things. I would hope that services would make allowances for people in need but then they may not. More and more, computers are in charge of who gets their services turned off. Don't let a illness put you in the dark or sends the sheriff to your door to evict you.

    If you haven't move yet, your 401K or other investments into cash options NOW. This crisis will probably bring on a recession and cause a serious correction in the Market. Don't survive and end up poor because you were focused on the real world and ignored the financial one.

    ---

    8) Security and Protection:
    If you own a firearm, check it, clean it and put it somewhere you can get at it. If you don't own one, consider putting some sort of protection where its handy. Also have something with you if you go out.

    I remember when I worked as a security guard in college, the police instructor who trained us said this, that carrying a billy club was illegal, but one of the longer and heavy flashlights wasn't. If we had to use that for protection then it was ok. Likewise, I have in my car as 4 way tire iron, for changing tires. I also have a hollow steel pipe which fits over one arm of that, to provide leverage to unstick frozen wheel nuts. That four foot pipe can be just as easily used to defend myself.

    If your family members are uneasy with firearms, then consider non lethal means like pepper spray. Hang one or two on the back of any entrance door so that if there is someone trying to force their way into your home, its handy. Put a baseball bat at the door too.

    Don't forget your car either. Put a can of pepper spray inside where each occupant can use it thru the window if need be.

    No, I don't think we will see roving bands of MadMaxian thieves assaulting our homes. And yet, in many Third World countries you can be attacked and robbed in the few feet from your car to your front door. Become situational aware. Watch your environment. Crises like these bring out the best in people but also bring out the worst.

    ---
    9) Virus Related Medicinals:

    We covered life critical medicines in section one. A second section must be those medicinals related to the crisis.

    You may not be able to cure the underlying illness but often being able to handle the symptoms can go a long way to keeping you alive. Look at the symptoms that this virus has, cough, fever, diarrhea and find over the counter medicines to address each of them. Stock up, its going to be rough. Don't forget simply instruments.  A good thermometer and oximeter can tell you when its time to brave the line at the local hospital or end up dead.

    Buy some comfort foods for the sick, like frozen popsicles or ice cream. This virus causes sore throats and coughs. Being able to just sit and eat something cold and tasty will go a long way to making the ill comfortable.

    Attitude is going to be critical in recovering from this virus.

    Consider your self quarantine measures as well. One of your household is certainly going to be sick. Your job is to see that all of you don't. Personal protection equipment (PPE) to prevent the virus from spreading inside your home and to protect you when you have to go out for supplies, is critical. Buy what you can but don't hoard. Others out there will need supplies too. Read up here on how you can extend the life of your PPE and masks. Protect yourself and don't put yourself and your family at risk if you can help it.

    Don't over look less traditional medicinals, like herbals and supplements. You need to strengthen your bodies immune system and stay healthy and well. Read where you can. Knowledge is your friend.

    Also don't over look the way that a good 8 hours of sleep can increase your resistance to infection and boost your immune system.

    Dr Seheult on the Medcram Youtube channel has a host of good detailed and informative videos that compliment Chris's here on Peak Prosperity. He has a series on how sleep helps too.

    Part 1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wlbM6VVkVZM&t=1s

    Part 2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vE4pBkslqS4

    ---

    10) Food:
    I put food at the end of this list because it is often the first thing people think of when they begin to prepare and it is probably one of the least important things to stockpile. I know most people will take issue with this, but its true. You can survive a long while on little food. You can't if you are diabetic and don't have insulin.

    Food is important but you must approach it with some smarts. Food is a supply you can easy go overboard on and waste your money.

    Lets consider some key points to outfitting your deep pantry with food.

    10a) Buy what You Eat:
    Too many new people to stockpiling will see the ads for survival food and buy into a bulk purchase of foods which do provide the needed nutrition but which are completely useless as additions to their deep pantries.

    Simply this, if you don't eat rice or beans on a regular basis, buying 20 pounds of either as a basis for your deep pantry is wrong. Either of those staples may keep you alive, but you aren't going to enjoy it.

    Purchase the food which you eat in your pre-crisis life. Deep pantries aren't something you buy and then store in the basement never to touch unless it gets bad. Deep pantries are really just buying your normal groceries that you eat from day to day, but buying them a few months out. One hint, as you buy stuff and build up your deep pantry, date each item with a magic marker, then try and choose the oldest food item in the pantry when you need to eat.

    That also means deep pantries aren't static. You need to set up a schedule of weekly menus so that you don't end up with supplies that are years old. Second hint, buy and put up a small white board in your kitchen, both to plan a menu and to remind yourself of any needed additions.

    This virus outbreak isn't going to cut off our access to food. Some things may get out of stock. There may be food runs too, where local stores empty out. You though, know enough to plan ahead and not let panic dictate your actions.

    10b) Consider How Its Stored:
    Most of your deep pantry will need to be stored for a while, at least weeks if not months. When you purchase and fill out your deep pantry, be aware of that fact.

    The majority of the food you buy will be in cans or packaging which allows room temperature, dry storage. If its one thing modern grocers have perfected, its making food that lasts. That's good.

    Some things may require electrical cold storage. I own a 7 cubic foot freezer and its almost always filled to the top. If power goes out though, that food will quickly turn to unusable garbage unless I cook it and eat it. Electrical cold storage though is very useful and as I've pointed out, at least in the US, during this crisis, electrical supplies of power should be constant.

    Try though to buy those foods that store at room temperature.

    10c) Plan For Foods While You Are Sick:

    A portion of your food prep should be foods that are easy to make (think 2 minutes in the microway), can be eaten cold (most soups or canned meat), or are nutritious and easily digested (think teas, broths, juices). Don't forget electrolyte replenishers like Gatoraid.

    Diarrhea can be a symptom of this virus, which will deplete important minerals, salts and sugars from your body. If we can't cure the virus, then we have to survive the symptoms.

    10d) Buy A Few Comfort Foods:
    Nothing cuts stress like a couple of cookies.

    Its tempting when you first outfit a deep pantry to focus just on the basics and the core supplies. That is a mistake. We aren't just animals eating that which we need. We are emotional beings that sometimes just want to have a hot cup of coffee and some chocolate. Remember that when things are hard, its helpful to be able to step back, recenter our thoughts and let the stress go for a moment, before getting back into the fight is critical to your survival.

    10e) Start Growing Something:

    Even if its just a few sprouts. Or a bucket of microgreens. Start now to gain at least a small amount of control on where your food comes from.

    You can check out this tutorial on the forum here on how to make a low cost ($10) self watering planter for patios or balconies.

    https://www.peakprosperity.com/forum-topic/self-watering-garden-containers/

    Growing some of your own food is also a great way to keep children focused and entertained. The act of caring for a plant and watching it grow, to then harvest from it and see it on the table is a powerful way to help your children through this trying event.

    ---

    Optional: 11) Things That You Can Trade:

    Unfortunately, for every one of you reading Peak Prosperity and preparing for an emergency, there are 99 who don't. Some of them may be your friends and neighbors.

    Think about what you can spare and where you need to say no. And what you might have extra in the case you have forgotten something, or need more of an important supply, like medicines, that you can use in trade. Be careful to only trade with people you know and then to guard yourself. Never let on that you are a juicy target that someone desperate might want to rob. Trade small and walk away.

    ---

    Note on where to get supplies: Don't over look non-conventional sources. Its natural to think grocery stores or big box retailers, but places which sell to retailers and businesses often have a larger supply of goods, and a lower price. I recently stopped by a restaurant supplier looking for a 55 gallon drum. They didn't have them but they had a box of rubber gloves which I had just paid $9 at a hardware store for $5. And they had another 50 boxes of those gloves on the shelf. Think outside of the box.

    ---

    Ok, that's some thoughts and suggestions.

    I suspect I'm missing a whole lot of things but at least it gets you thinking. Remember, developing a deep pantry and preparing for hard times isn't just going out and buying a whole lot of canned food.

    For every dollar you have to supply a deep pantry, unfortunately you are going to have 3-4 things that you think you need to buy. Take your time, think though your options and even if you later think you chose wrong, don't worry about it too much. You will make mistakes. This isn't a situation with right or wrong but a situation where you can only choose what is best for you.

    Be safe.

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  • Fri, Feb 14, 2020 - 7:33pm

    #30
    bigpig1

    bigpig1

    Status: Member

    Joined: Sep 09 2008

    Posts: 11

    Steam?

    Do steamers work to kill this virus?

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  • Fri, Feb 14, 2020 - 7:35pm

    Montana Native

    Status: Member

    Joined: Mar 17 2009

    Posts: 117

    5+

    Gold Bubble....

    I've been here for 11 years, not 11 days. Gold's history as money spans millennia and although digital currencies are popular, I'm fairly certain hard currency will retain it's value long after most digital currencies hit the dust bin. Take a look at the buying tendencies of Russia and China in the precious metals sector over the last decade. Those with the gold make the rules.....FYI. Tangible wealth is going nowhere except into stronger hands.

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  • Fri, Feb 14, 2020 - 7:40pm

    #32
    Nairobi

    Nairobi

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    Joined: Feb 05 2020

    Posts: 289

    3+

    Don't panic.

    If we are learning anything from the experience of those suffering over in China (both the sick and the healthy) it is that keeping a level head in the face of adversity is strongly advised.

    There are so many panic type videos coming out of China lately.  The behavior verges on primitive in some of them.  And it must feel like being inside a boiling pressure cooker for those that were not ready nor prepared to shelter in place at home while this illness gripped entire neighborhoods or cities.

    Shopping itself can jeopardize your life in China if you are caught without a mask or the correct responses for the police. So much fear.

    The worst I saw was that policeman beating a dog to death while it was tied to a tree. For what? Because people have been conditioned in a very short time by remarks from their leaders to fear animals as a possible disease vector.

    Where do peoples minds go under duress? We need to pause and learn from this. When our turn comes we can all do better I hope. Like poverty, fear is a state of mind. It can be overcome if we choose.

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  • Fri, Feb 14, 2020 - 7:44pm

    #33

    dtrammel

    Status: Silver Member

    Joined: May 03 2011

    Posts: 800

    1+

    New Verification Procedures?

    When I went to post I was just sent to a CloudFair verification (I am not a robot). Is that a new thing?

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  • Fri, Feb 14, 2020 - 7:51pm

    Nairobi

    Nairobi

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    Joined: Feb 05 2020

    Posts: 289

    Gold is not money

    I agree with you Montana. Gold will always have value and indeed it will outlive every paper currency we might name.

    But it's not money if you can't spend it. And the powers that be in this world have no intention of bringing it back.

    (See you on the daily gold page if you want to talk about it).

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  • Fri, Feb 14, 2020 - 7:58pm

    kunga

    kunga

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    Joined: Feb 26 2017

    Posts: 342

    4+

    Deep pantry, etc.

    Get your taxes done.  A lot can be done and paid online, now.  I sent all my stuff to accountant in Jan. and everything will be completed by next week.  Think about all the bills you can pay ahead and things that can be paid by credit card and over the net.  Get your credit cards paid down so you have some flexibility.  When is your vehicle registration due?  Can you pay it ahead?  Property taxes,here, can now be paid by credit card over the net.  Do US Census online.  Starting April 1.  Don't delay or someone will show up at your door.  Drive and act prudently, carefully, calmly and responsibly from now on.  Incur no fines.  Do not put a target on your back.  No inflamitory Tshirts, masks, bumper stickers.  Go grey.

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  • Fri, Feb 14, 2020 - 8:48pm

    #36
    Sparky1

    Sparky1

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    Joined: Jul 21 2016

    Posts: 736

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    David & Sally Abel, Life on the Diamond Princess ship appeal to Richard Branson for rescue of Brits.

    David & Sally Abel, Life on the Diamond Princess Cruise Ship (2/14/20)

    The Abels make a direct appeal to Richard Branson to rescue Brits from the ship, to fly them to UK medical facilities for screening and treatment. David reviews a friend's experience with flawed Covid-2019 tests, giving both positive and negative results. Passengers are "in revolt", refusing to see doctors due to unreliable medical testing and communication issues due to language differences. "People are going through Hell."

    https://youtu.be/rI-iFiV1jns

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  • Fri, Feb 14, 2020 - 8:57pm

    #37
    SteveW

    SteveW

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    Joined: Jan 21 2010

    Posts: 159

    Soluble ACE2

    I was looking at Chris' latest video where he states that soluble ACE2 blocks the viral receptor. This goes back to a Nature report that is behind their paywall. Anyway the gist is that soluble ACE2 protects against infection with SARS in cell cultures.

    The easiest way to make soluble ACE2 (better than the previous methods discussed here) is to simply take the human gene and truncate the transmembrane domain. The extracellular component is normally found on cell surfaces and transfused as a soluble protein would be expected to escape immune rejection.

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  • Fri, Feb 14, 2020 - 9:18pm

    #38
    Sparky1

    Sparky1

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    Joined: Jul 21 2016

    Posts: 736

    2+

    Terrifying Quarantine, Not For the Claustrophobic

    Video of Chinese woman being taking for quarantine, loaded into a small box on the back of a truck. Heartbreaking and terrifying.

    https://youtu.be/P3yH-X-IfVQ

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  • Fri, Feb 14, 2020 - 9:21pm

    #39
    aggrivated

    aggrivated

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    Posts: 469

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    Use of UV light

    Uv light boxes such as those used for baby bottle sterilizing could make reuse of hard to get face masks and other items doable. I saw one article where UV light was used to sterilize blood plasma in MERS patients.  I would love to hear an opinion on this approach  from anyone with medical training

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  • Fri, Feb 14, 2020 - 9:23pm

    dtrammel

    Status: Silver Member

    Joined: May 03 2011

    Posts: 800

    14+

    Protective Camouflage Is Now Needed - Getting Serious!

    Kunga said: "Drive and act prudently, carefully, calmly and responsibly from now on.  Incur no fines.  Do not put a target on your back.  No inflamitory Tshirts, masks, bumper stickers.  Go grey."

    ---

    I would bet that the majority of regular members of this forum know what Kunga meant when they said "Go Grey" and what I mean by being "The Grey Man".

    For those of you who don't and for the people who have just found Peak Prosperity, "The Grey Man" refers to a set of actions and lifestyle changes which you do, when you are in a situation or environment which may be dangerous.

    The best camouflage is not standing out.

    I lived for a while in in Los Angeles, in a area of town that was a bit rough and the sound of the occasional gunfire would sound at night, a place that a older white male like myself was an oddity. And yet I walked to the store and the local market, did laundry and interacted with all the diverse people in my neighborhood without fear. I did this while working in the movie industry and making $80K a year because I never flaunted my money. I never looked like prey.

    To be a "Grey Man" (or Grey Woman) is to adopt the clothing style and daily habits of those around you, while never appearing to be someone the many predators in that neighborhood would think was worth the trouble to attack and rob. It also means not showing fear. If you need to, do a search of the term. Many prepper and survival sites have good articles on the term and concept.

    Why do I bring this up in the current crisis?

    Many of you are just finding out that to take care of yourself and your family means preparing now, instead of when its too late. To stock up now on food, water, medical supplies and all the other stuff that may be in short supply if this situation gets as bad as we all hope it doesn't. And supplies for even a small family can be a large amount of stuff.

    Even if the over all situation doesn't get very bad regionally or nationally, local conditions at times may. A large cluster of infections, a over loaded hospital and inept city government can all cause a chaotic and possibly lawless environment to appear for days or even weeks until the national government can reestablish control.

    Those kindly neighbors, those parents who go to your church with you or whose kids go to school with yours, when faced with their loved ones starving or getting ill and dying, won't hesitate for a second in forcing you, who has prepared, to give up what you have.

    Just like putting the empty box from your new 72" flat screen TV out with the trash, tells thieves you have something to steal, unloading from your car several dozen grocery bags piled high with food and supplies, carrying in a few 5 gallon cans of gasoline, or buying a new generator tells your neighbors you have stuff they may need when SHTF.

    They might not think about it now, but someone will later when they open the last can of soup in their cabinet.

    Be a bit stealthy as you stock up and prepare. Go to the grocery store on the way home every night this coming week (and maybe next week) and buy just enough that you can get out and walk right in to your home. Maybe take an early nap and go out in the middle of the night, or early morning before work to pick up stuff.

    Hide what you can in your basement, under your bed or in closets, so your kitchen doesn't appear over full. Be careful who you allow in your house for now. Lie and tell people your wife or kid isn't feeling well (or yourself). Don't be unfriendly but by the same token, don't go being the one flaunting wealth.

    When you talk to casual neighbors to see if they are concerned about the Corona virus and if they are thinking of preparing, be discreet.  If they ask you, lie and tell them you aren't concerned and don't plan to. See who appears to get the danger and who doesn't. Those that do, might be ones to talk to privately later.

    I remember years ago, when nuclear war seemed a possibility, one guy said rather flippantly, "Well if it happens, I'll just come to your house." He might not have liked the reception he would have gotten, but too many people don't hesitate to take what they need anymore.

    If it does develop that people start getting ill, don't socialize. Definitely don't have a big barbecue on your back porch. Don't leave your house with your mask on, instead don it once you've driven away. If people come to your door, don't hide behind the door but talk to them in a guarded but friendly way.

    If you feel unease, just start coughing a bit. People will think you might be sick and leave you be. Dishonest yes, but then you are protecting yourself and your family.

    Sit down with your family and especially your children and bring them into the loop. Level with them about why you are preparing and why its important not to talk to their friends about it.

    Adopt the attitude of the Grey Man.

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  • Fri, Feb 14, 2020 - 10:33pm

    nordicjack

    nordicjack

    Status: Silver Member

    Joined: Feb 03 2020

    Posts: 590

    1+

    Yeah, its time to be very inconspicuous

    I have spoken about this with my wife - and how we may deal with this.  She thinks we can get a few neigbors or neighborhood watch together when the looters come with picktruck and a gang of armed bandits.. even if you are locked and loaded - you dont stand a chance of several envasions of 10-14 armed bandits.. per day.. looking for as much as a gallon of gas and a can of soup and what ever gold and jewelry you have.. I am trying to think of what kind of mass weapon I can devise for such an attack..  I am thinking of booby trapping the property.. think of anything from some homemade grenades to acid bombs etc..   I know this seems like it may be premature - but i think its inevitable,  its not if - its when.

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  • Fri, Feb 14, 2020 - 11:46pm

    Nairobi

    Nairobi

    Status: Bronze Member

    Joined: Feb 05 2020

    Posts: 289

    10+

    Nairobi said:

    Deep breathes Nordicjack. Nobody is coming for your soup. Especially not pickup trucks full several times a day.

    I can tell you have never been to Nairobi. Getting robbed there is just a normal day to day thing. Kind of like a bothersome rash that never goes away.

    But you get used to it. Stuff is not really that important. If you want your freedom, just give everything away. You won't need to defend anything after that.

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  • Sat, Feb 15, 2020 - 12:57am

    chrissie.sugden

    chrissie.sugden

    Status: Member

    Joined: Jan 26 2015

    Posts: 11

    1+

    ACE receptors in the small intestine

    Very interesting new video from Chris. As well as the significance for the heart, I wonder if the fact that there are ACE 2 receptors in the small intestine explain the possible association of infection spread and buffets mentioned in one thread.

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  • Sat, Feb 15, 2020 - 2:11am

    #44
    Ister

    Ister

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    Joined: Jul 03 2008

    Posts: 3

    6+

    Plot % of infected population for most likely new secondary disease destinations

    Second try to post, 1st one didn't come through (?)

     

    The numbers should track the population.

    We know that the risk of new secondary infection clusters (self-sustaining) is a function of infected travellers coming in from the primary infection area (Wuhan). Ref: https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.02.12.20022426v1

    We know what the most probable / most dense traveller flow destinations of such infected travellers. Ref: https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.02.04.20020479v1

    So, the actual number of infected as a percentage of the population should track this with a delay. Most people are now only tracking the absolute number, not the population %. Example: https://bnonews.com/index.php/2020/02/the-latest-coronavirus-cases/

    We know that it is highly likely, that a great number of infected are asymptomatic and ONLY symptomatic are screened in destination countries . Ref: https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.02.13.20022707v1.full.pdf

    And we know that it is likely that the disease can spread in asymptomatic stage. Ref: https://www.who.int/docs/default-source/coronaviruse/situation-reports/20200214-sitrep-25-covid-19.pdf?sfvrsn=61dda7d_2

    So, looking at the EpiCurve, we should anticipate a rise in new infections after the period of asymptomatic infection + incubation, in the new cases, as a function of incoming travellers from infected areas. Compare:

    And, to gauge the relevance of that, we should track:

    1. The highest number of infected travellers list

    2. Calculate % of infected in population

    3. Estimate % of asymptomatic (and other non-diagnosed, low-symptom) infected

    According the the world's top virological epidemologist, Marc Lipsitch (from Harvard), it is more likely this will develop into a global pandemic, with a global infection rate estimate currently between 40% to 70% of world population becoming infected. Ref: https://twitter.com/mlipsitch/status/1228373884027592704

    ----

    BTW, as a curious side-note posted elsewhere on your youtube comments:

    China is using Sandia Labs developed disifection/decontamination agent D7 that was engineered against biological warfare to disinfect Wuhan areas from SARS-CoV-2 virus (that's the name of the virus, COVID-19 is the name of the epidemic). D7 is patented and marketed by Decon7 Systems and China has bought all their production capacity.
    Links below, Please dig into it:

     

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  • Sat, Feb 15, 2020 - 2:11am

    #45

    cheapseats

    Status: Member

    Joined: Jan 27 2019

    Posts: 25

    4+

    Food packaging source?

    does food packaging come from China?  Who makes the plastic cups that yogurt comes in, or the peanut butter jars?  How about the plastic wrap for toilet paper, toothpaste tubes or soup cans?

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  • Sat, Feb 15, 2020 - 2:16am

    #46
    Ister

    Ister

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    Joined: Jul 03 2008

    Posts: 3

    2+

    Chinese may be more likely to be more vulnerable to SARS-COV-2 / new study

    According to: Profiling the immune vulnerability landscape of the 2019 Novel Coronavirus, James Zhu1,*, Jiwoong Kim1,*, Xue Xiao1,*, Yunguan Wang1,*, Danni Luo1, Ran Chen1, Lin Xu1, He Zhang1, Guanghua Xiao1,2, Xiaowei Zhan1,3, Tao Wang1,3,+, Yang Xie1,2+

    The Chinese may be more likely to be more vulnerable.

    Direct quote from the paper:

    "Interestingly, the T cell epitope intensities (number of binders weighted by allele frequency) are higher overall in the European population than the Chinese population, suggesting that the Chinese population may be more vulnerable to 2019-nCoV infection."

    Ref: https://www.preprints.org/manuscript/202002.0167/v1

     

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  • Sat, Feb 15, 2020 - 2:41am

    #47

    cheapseats

    Status: Member

    Joined: Jan 27 2019

    Posts: 25

    4+

    Disaster preparedness

    There are a lot of worried people here.  I want to reassure you that the USA has a very advanced, redundant and capable disaster  response system.   It starts with the local government:  county Office of Emergency Management (OEM).  There are the sheriff, paramedics, health department, fire and ambulance and local hospitals.  They are the front line. They all have websites and I suggest you read up on the local preparedness plans already in place.  Then the state has their OEM, state police, health department, national guard.  They can support the locals when they get overwhelmed, or take over the response when several counties are impacted.  Then the federal gov has FEMA, DHS, CDC, etc.  They have enormous capabilities and can support the state if it gets overwhelmed, or take over response if several states are affected.  Likely all these levels will be invoked and working together.  I know this audience is skeptical of the .gov, but I hope the response of these public servants over the next few weeks and months can restore some of your faith.  Don’t be scared, don’t panic.  Prepare responsibly.  Have some essential supplies on hand and be ready to be more self sufficient for awhile.  If your workplace has a continuity of operations plan (COOP) read it.  You may need to self quarantine or telecommute.  Test your passwords and RSA token. Kept your phone charged and on your person to receive any alerts.  If your state has an emergency notification system, sign up for it.  If you haven’t introduced yourself to your neighbors, go say hi.

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  • Sat, Feb 15, 2020 - 5:03am

    Chris Martenson

    Chris Martenson

    Status: Platinum Member

    Joined: Jun 07 2007

    Posts: 5219

    8+

    Re: Verification

    When I went to post I was just sent to a CloudFair verification (I am not a robot). Is that a new thing?

    Nope.  Happened to me 2x yesterday.  It's something we're working on to fine tune as we battle the spammers and bots.

    Nothing personal!  🙂

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  • Sat, Feb 15, 2020 - 5:58am

    signalfire

    signalfire

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    Joined: May 18 2009

    Posts: 17

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    Spanish flu proves you wrong - Reply to MKI

    What about the risks of exposure if you're going to the gym to 'lift' every day? Athletic people are generally also social and more likely to be out and about, not semi-quarantined living alone and being sedentary. And if people would read this: birdflubook.org (click on chapter headings to read) they'd get a good historical overview of how the Spanish flu killed off the young and vigorous more than the old because of the cytokine storm their healthy immune systems produced.  And ALL of the young adults as well as everyone else was eating a non-GMO organic diet back then. Almost no one except a percentage of the grannies were fat. Smokers tended to be pipe (intermittent) smokers rather than constant cigarette smokers. Look at pictures from back then; everyone did far more physical exercise and routine walking. What you're doing is whistling in the dark - hoping your lifestyle protects you from something that in the end will be random and unfathomable.

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  • Sat, Feb 15, 2020 - 6:07am

    Rector

    Status: Bronze Member

    Joined: Feb 07 2010

    Posts: 376

    Lots of weight

    Point taken - and I agree.  But I don't know too many women who can bench/squat/deadlift their body weight 10X.  Pretty high standards!  I bet our forefathers were able to do these things.

    Rector

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  • Sat, Feb 15, 2020 - 6:12am

    #51

    dtrammel

    Status: Silver Member

    Joined: May 03 2011

    Posts: 800

    Remember There Are Other Threats Too

    With all the focus on Covid19, its easy to forget there are other threats too. This year a second variety of common flu has begun circulating.

    https://www.oregonlive.com/news/2020/02/amid-coronavirus-fears-a-second-wave-of-flu-hits-us-kids.html

    A second wave of flu is hitting the U.S., turning this into one of the nastiest seasons for children in a decade.

    The number of child deaths and the hospitalization rate for youngsters are the highest seen at this point in any season since the severe flu outbreak of 2009-10, health officials said Friday. And the wave is expected to keep going for weeks.

    In Oregon, one child has died from the flu so far this season. The overall flu trend is downward, with a precipitous drop in ER flu cases in late 2019. After a modest resurgence in late January, flu cases dropped again in the week ending Feb. 8, Oregon Health Authority data show.

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  • Sat, Feb 15, 2020 - 6:20am

    #52
    Nate

    Nate

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    Joined: May 05 2009

    Posts: 430

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    food for thought

    We live in an agricultural area, surrounded by farms and food processors.  A large walnut shelling operation is nearby.  Walnuts are cracked and meats removed, inspected to remove shells, packaged and sold.  Unlike almonds which are normally roasted, walnuts are sold raw.

    A Grade B dairy sits about 2 miles from where we live.  Grade B milk is more susceptible to bacterial contamination and used for things like butter, cheese, and yogart.  (Grade A milk is 'cleaner' and used for the milk we drink).

    Is there a risk of Covid-19 entering the food chain and getting transmitted in this fashion?  With the consumer preferring less processed food, the potential risk of the virus spreading seems high (higher than I want).

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  • Sat, Feb 15, 2020 - 6:29am

    dtrammel

    Status: Silver Member

    Joined: May 03 2011

    Posts: 800

    6+

    Not That Confident In Federal/State or Local Preparedness

    While that is a lovely sentiment cheapseats, I have to point out the response from those groups and agencies in the past dozen natural disasters.  History doesn't offer much confidence in their help either near term or long term.

    This isn't going to be something that sweeps in for week and then sweeps out. No hoard of reporters to descend like locust to file a report from a conveniently deep pothole. Its something that will take place over months and affect the entire nation. Government agencies aren't prepared nor equipped to handle something like this if it goes sideways.

    As Chris has said, prepare for yourself means you take your welfare in your own hands, shifting you from the negative of needed government help, to the plus, where you can help others. I'd rather that, than wait for the President to toss me a roll of paper towels at a photo op.

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  • Sat, Feb 15, 2020 - 6:35am

    signalfire

    signalfire

    Status: Member

    Joined: May 18 2009

    Posts: 17

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    Re Government Preparedness

    While members of the local and national government concerned with public health may have our best interests at heart and even be heroic at times (think about wildfire fighters), the fact that we have a raving maniac and proven psychopath at the top doesn't exactly fill me with confidence. People aren't going to be working at whatever their job is, if they're at home prostrate in bed and half of their family members are also. Medical personnel will at some point either become infected themselves, or make the decision to not go to work in order to protect their own families from exposure (even though at the point they make that decision, it may be too late).  Medical personnel aren't angels, nor are they martyrs. You learn early on that sometimes you have to 'call' it when the situation is hopeless and save yourself.

    If our government were prepared, we wouldn't be getting the vast majority of our important medications from China and India in the first place, especially in an economy where a lot of people aren't working that could be. (Labor participation rate is actually quite low, with lots of older middle aged workers who have given up looking for work, and lots of younger workers doing jobs that they didn't need their expensive college educations to train for).  It's too bad the billionaires haven't set their sights on starting companies that produce USA-made medications.

    Now I see that Richard Branson is being asked to finance moving British nationals off the cruise ship and bringing them home to the UK for quarantine or treatment. It'll be interesting if this actually happens - I was on the front lines after the hurricane decimated his private island, as well as the shacks of his laborers on nearby islands; he actually had the gall (as a billionaire!) to ask the general public for donations to rebuild his own employee's housing and infrastructure. One wonders if they are rebuilt yet...

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  • Sat, Feb 15, 2020 - 6:39am

    Rector

    Status: Bronze Member

    Joined: Feb 07 2010

    Posts: 376

    13+

    Thank you - I believe in government

    I appreciate your perspective and I agree that we have a sophisticated bureaucracy.  They will mobilize many "EOCs", purchase loads of unnecessary supplies, give many powerpoint presentations, and make many requests for emergency funding.  What they cannot do is increase the number of ICU beds, prevent infection, or solve supply chain problems on a large scale.  Government is reactive - FEMA shows up after the flood.  Government is incompetent - depending on it is a risk I'm not willing to take.

    If your not a little "worried" about the possibility of many people becoming ill, dying, or losing their jobs in a recession, then you aren't thinking about the problem hard enough.  Secondly, what's wrong with "worried" anyway?  What is the downside that you must soothe away with comforting words?  What data are you presenting to ameliorate my worry?  I like to worry - when it's warranted and supported by facts.  It keeps me focused.

    Rector

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  • Sat, Feb 15, 2020 - 6:41am

    #56

    dtrammel

    Status: Silver Member

    Joined: May 03 2011

    Posts: 800

    1+

    Cell Phone Chargers - Recommendations?

    One thing that is almost essential now is your cell phone but how long does your battery last? I have an old flip phone so my battery typically lasts several days.

    I'm struck remembering all the photos from black outs or natural disasters where people are huddled over any available power outlet trying to get a charge.

    There is a variety of cell phone chargers on Amazon, some with solar panels. Any experiences or recommendations for something in the $50 or less range? I'm leaning towards a multipanel unit like this

    https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07HRHYYL8/

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  • Sat, Feb 15, 2020 - 6:51am

    Copper’s Hu-mom

    Copper’s Hu-mom

    Status: Member

    Joined: Feb 01 2020

    Posts: 42

    11+

    Libraries online

    Thank you, Dtrammel, for your very thoughtful and helpful posts. As a librarian, a special thanks for encouraging people to get a library card.  In addition to using the catalog online for a quick question in-out library visit, Cardholders can use library digital resources like Overdrive and Hoopla to download and read ebooks and e-audiobooks on your device without ever leaving your home.  For free.  Now’s a great time to get that card. It’s priceless.  That and a Netflix subscription should help keep you well entertained during isolation.

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  • Sat, Feb 15, 2020 - 6:53am

    VeganDB12

    VeganDB12

    Status: Silver Member

    Joined: Jul 18 2008

    Posts: 217

    steamers

    My understanding on this is that it depends.  A steamer at high temperatures (boiling water) will clean hard surfaces but steaming is not good for masks.  Food and other gunk on stuff will not be sterilized it has to be washed off.

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  • Sat, Feb 15, 2020 - 6:55am

    davefairtex

    Status: Member

    Joined: Sep 03 2008

    Posts: 2088

    19+

    clues from wuflu; my plan

    ... the Spanish flu killed off the young and vigorous more than the old because of the cytokine storm their healthy immune systems produced.  And ALL of the young adults as well as everyone else was eating a non-GMO organic diet back then. Almost no one except a percentage of the grannies were fat. Smokers tended to be pipe (intermittent) smokers rather than constant cigarette smokers...

    Well, I'm going to go with the odds.  Sometimes it is the young and healthy that get nailed, but most of the time it is those with underlying conditions - as explained to us by the reports from Wuhan - who end up dying.

    So given the evidence to date on this virus, staying healthy, active, fit, and happy is really my favored approach.  [I'm not going to take up smoking, put on 30 pounds, become diabetic, give myself hypertension, etc].

    And I get a vote in how things turn out internally.  As we know -- or as many of us know -- you can help your immune system by avoiding a stress response.  Put differently, the happier you are, the better your immune system works.

    Why is that?  Well, a "happy" brain releases one set of chemicals into the body that tells it "all is well, it is safe to throw all the energy into immune, regeneration, and reproduction."  A scared or angry brain ("holy shit I got THE VIRUS!!") generates another set of chemicals, telling the body "it is time to fight the attacking tiger", and to shift energy into muscles.  After all, if the tiger eats you, there's no need to have an immune response.  Your disease will be the tiger's problem, not yours.

    But the body doesn't know the difference between the "holy shit, a virus!" fear-response, and the "holy shit, an attacking tiger!" fear-response.  Both responses shut down the immune system.  So - a fear-response is something to be avoided.

    So I'm assuming I'll probably be exposed to this thing, and the experience I'd like to create is this: I want to be one of those people who don't even notice the infection.  There have been LOTS of those people.  That's the experience I want.  In order to maximize the odds of this happening, it means exercise, a reasonable diet, reasonable amounts of sleep, not drinking too much, taking my NAC, and remaining happy.  The last bit is the hardest.  I get to read news for every daily report I write, and there's nothing that makes me crankier than ... reading the news.

    But happy is key.  I want my brain to release all the chemicals that tell my immune system it is safe to use maximum resources to fight off any invaders.  The trick, though, is not to "avoid fear", it is to focus on happiness.  Focus on what you want, not on what you don't want.

    Meanwhile, I've got my supplies, I've honed my ability to make rice porridge (best thing ever when you aren't feeling well - nothing like good food to make a guy happy), I've set my intent (remember: I've dealt with tougher situations than this in the past), and we will see how it all plays out.

    And I will trust myself to follow any bread crumb clues that might appear if there is any need to alter my current plan.

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  • Sat, Feb 15, 2020 - 6:56am

    BillL

    BillL

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    Joined: Jan 15 2020

    Posts: 115

    BillL said:

    "Gold is money, everything else is credit."   J P Morgan.

    The NY Fed dictates the money supply.  They have since 1913.  An extension of the Bank of England/Rothschild family.  I think we heard a few weeks ago that the FED is not federal.  It is a private bank.  The irs is the collection arm for BOE via federal income tax, also instituted in 1913-14.

    "Secrets of the Federal Reserve"  Eustace Mullins.  There are other well researched books out there but Mullins imo was the best.  Creature from Jekyll Island by G. Edward Griffin another.

     

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  • Sat, Feb 15, 2020 - 6:57am

    #61
    pat the rat

    pat the rat

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    clamp

    How long can China keep the clamps on a 100,000,000 people ? Clamp slips,break or are removed!We will not know if China has pull this till then,but it don't look good.

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  • Sat, Feb 15, 2020 - 7:08am

    BillL

    BillL

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    Joined: Jan 15 2020

    Posts: 115

    "Those with the gold make the rules."

    I hope that is not completely the case.

    If you owned a majority of the world's current wealth (and I am not talking about countries), what would your gold vault look like?  If you owned a printing press and had the ability to print money out of thin air?

    The moneychangers are still alive and well on the earth.  For now.

     

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  • Sat, Feb 15, 2020 - 7:30am

    kleymo

    kleymo

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    Posts: 37

    7+

    great list

    Thank you for taking the time to make and share this list of excellent advice with everyone. It has been helpful to me in focusing my thinking.

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  • Sat, Feb 15, 2020 - 7:32am

    #64
    tonysmyth

    tonysmyth

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    6+

    tonysmyth said:

    I've been reading PP for year now and it is incredibly informative and useful. This current post is excellent. I live in Tokyo and am VERY concerned about this virus getting onto the subways in such a crowded city.

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  • Sat, Feb 15, 2020 - 7:47am

    #65
    Steve

    Steve

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    ACE 2 vs. ACE 2 receptor vs. Covid-19

    After watching your new video "You can catch the Coronavirus more than once," my wife helped me realize we are confused about ACE 2 and ACE 2 receptors.  In addition are there two things occurring, the unbalancing of the ACE 2 function as well as the symptoms caused by the virus itself?

    1. Please explain the difference between ACE 2 and ACE 2 receptors.
    2. Is one concern that the virus couples with the ACE 2 receptor which blocks the ACE 2 from coupling and performing its function and causes the unbalancing?  Please help us understand this mechanism.
    3. Is the action of the virus on the ACE 2 receptor site or on the ACE 2 molecule itself?
    4. What is the additional destruction caused by the multiplication of the virus cells within the body.

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  • Sat, Feb 15, 2020 - 7:55am

    #66
    Desogames

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    Westerdam cruise ship just went viral

    https://www.scmp.com/news/asia/southeast-asia/article/3050814/coronavirus-us-passenger-westerdam-cruise-ship-infected

    This has turned into the worst case scenario just now. They found an infected passenger - AFTER she flew to Malaysia.

    Meaning there *have* to be more on that ship, many more even, without anybody showing symptoms so there is no way to tell who has what and where they ended up spreading it.

    This is a disaster.

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  • Sat, Feb 15, 2020 - 8:05am

    #67

    dtrammel

    Status: Silver Member

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    Posts: 800

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    ACE2 Explanations and Good Video

    Steve, I suspect Chris and the Peak Prosperity crew is getting set up for the live cast scheduled for today, so he might not be able to get back to you soon.

    That said, I found this video to be very good at explaining the specifics of ACE2, the immune system of our bodies and how the virus affects the lungs.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GT3_A1bf9pU

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  • Sat, Feb 15, 2020 - 8:18am

    Nairobi

    Nairobi

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    Portable solar lamps that charge phone batteries

    Oh yes  dtrammel, by all means get a couple of those solar powered lights that include an option to recharge your mobile phone.

    Be sure the set includes the multi-plug charger adapter that will have an option to charge more than one style of phone.

    They are indispensable.

    I lived for many years in rural parts of Africa where power was intermittent and unreliable and could not have managed without them.

    Spring for the better quality styles that run about 50 to 60 dollars since those usually have a pair of double AA rechargeable batteries inside that you can replace when the originals wear down.

    The cheap models are junk when they stop working or are inaccessible so you cannot maintain them yourself. Over in Kenya we might pay 20 bucks for the same made in China units but here it just costs more.

    I had a pair (always buy at least two units) and they worked brilliantly for more than seven years without trouble. So quality pays. And they give a surprising amount of light when the power goes out.

    I am a veteran of living the prepper lifestyle although I would never have referred to myself that way. But you do learn a lot living in an environment where resources are scarce and few homes are well supplied.

    Besides a few good lamps and an ability to keep your phone alive,  your most important resource is going to be your ability to cooperate with neighbors and build social alliances.

    Some of the guys I am reading here lately are putting far too much emphasis on defensive moats and personal protection. But I can tell you what you REALLY need when the chips are down and the stress is high are friends (and lots of them).

    Much more can be accomplished by sharing and trading resources than in defending a limited pile of supplies.

    I mean, don't you ever wonder why African societies can function and even thrive in spite of grinding poverty? Its because they adapt and start trading at the local level which builds community and thus safety.

    It is not a breakdown in our systems that worries me most. It's the emergence of some excessively independent (and armed) personality types that actually makes life dangerous when the lights go out.

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  • Sat, Feb 15, 2020 - 8:18am

    Sabemenos

    Sabemenos

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    Westerdam passenger long incubation asymptomatic

    the case of the passenger who tested positive After she left the Westerdam proves Chris right about long incubation period and contagious while asymptomatic.  No one on the Westerdam displayed any symptoms during that 14 day period. She had to have been infected by an asymptomatic person on board and as Desogames just pointed out correctly there have to be others on board also infected. Chris caught a lot of flak a couple weeks back for reporting long incubation and asymptomatic transmission but facts have shown he knew what he was talking about

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  • Sat, Feb 15, 2020 - 8:32am

    #70

    saxplayer00o1

    Status: Silver Member

    Joined: Jul 30 2009

    Posts: 3134

    3+

    5 U.S. cities to start testing patients with flu-like symptoms for coronavirus

    How COVID-19 Kills: The New Coronavirus Disease Can Take A Deadly Turn
    "Because our body senses all of those viruses as basically foreign invaders, that triggers our immune system to sweep in and try to contain and control the virus and stop it from making more and more copies of itself," she says.

    But Furuya says that this immune system response to this invader can also destroy lung tissue and cause inflammation. The end result can be pneumonia. That means the air sacs in the lungs become inflamed and filled with fluid, making it harder to breathe.

    https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2020/02/14/805289669/how-covid-19-kills-the-new-coronavirus-disease-can-take-a-deadly-turn

    ============================
    5 U.S. cities to start testing patients with flu-like symptoms for coronavirus

    "This is just the starting point," Dr. Nancy Messonnier, director of the CDC's National Center for Immunization and Respiratory Diseases, said during a press briefing Friday. "We plan to expand to more sites in the coming weeks."

    Messonnier said the increased testing is part of an effort to determine whether the virus is spreading in communities across the U.S. "The results would be an early warning signal to trigger a change in our response strategy," she said.

    https://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-news/5-u-s-cities-start-testing-patients-flu-symptoms-coronavirus-n1136941

    ===================================

    Facebook cancels global marketing conference due to the coronavirus outbreak

    There were 4,000 people expected to attend

    https://www.theverge.com/2020/2/14/21138480/facebook-global-marketing-conference-canceled-coronavirus

    ============================
    Coronavirus impact spreads to European auto plant and could hit GM truck production

    Vehicles that could be impacted if the plants were to be idled include the Chevrolet Silverado and GMC Sierra pickup trucks and Chevrolet Tahoe, Chevrolet Suburban, GMC Yukon and Cadillac Escalade SUVs.

    =======================
    University of Florida: Professors Can’t Make Sick Kids Leave Class
    https://www.nbcmiami.com/news/local/university-of-florida-professors-cant-make-sick-kids-leave-class/2191422/

    ===========================
    3 in Western Japan Confirmed Infected with New Coronavirus
    The Wakayama prefectural government said Saturday that three more people related to a local hospital have been confirmed infected with the new coronavirus.

    One is a doctor in his 50s working at Saiseikai Arida Hospital in the Wakayama town of Yuasa, western Japan. Among those related to the hospital, a surgeon in his 50s was confirmed infected with the virus originating in China's Wuhan on Thursday.

    Wakayama Governor Yoshinobu Nisaka said the possibility of in-hospital infection "can't be denied."

    The other two are the wife in her 50s of the doctor whose infection has just been confirmed and an inpatient at the hospital in his 60s.

    https://www.nippon.com/en/news/yjj2020021500391/3-in-western-japan-confirmed-infected-with-new-coronavirus.html

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  • Sat, Feb 15, 2020 - 8:43am

    #71
    Kathy

    Kathy

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    Are the tests to be trusted any more?

    China has added the CT scan as a way to confirm whether positive or not for the virus.  And we have read there are many, many false positives and false negatives.  Could it be that many who are asympotamatic and test positive are really negative?  The Chinese may be onto something. Would the CT scan only find those who are showing symptoms?  It gets to be very confusing and not very sure of what we know.

     

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  • Sat, Feb 15, 2020 - 9:00am

    #72
    bethgreenwood

    bethgreenwood

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    Joined: May 19 2011

    Posts: 11

    5+

    Consider an Advanced Directive

    Repost from "Resilient Preparations": This is a topic I haven’t seen mentioned in the various discussions regarding preparation, so I thought I would bring it up. Whether in a pandemic situation or for other reasons (think stroke, head injury or mental illness), we all run the risk of becoming unable to make our own decisions. As an RN, I have seen many instances in which families become divided over the issue of how to handle health care and who makes the decisions. Please give consideration to creating both an advanced directive and a durable power of attorney for health care. They are not the same thing. An advanced directive outlines your wishes regarding your health care if you become mentally or physically incapacitated. For example, if you have a heart attack, do you want to be resuscitated? If you sustain a serious head injury and EEGs indicate brain death, at what point would you want someone to pull the plug or stop the heroics and let nature take its course? A durable power of attorney designates a specific agent (a backup person is also a good idea) who can make decisions for you if you become incapacitated. While this typically includes health care decisions, it also may include financial or legal decisions. The advance directive defines what you want done while the durable power of attorney identifies who will actually make the decisions and how much power they have – you need both.

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  • Sat, Feb 15, 2020 - 9:21am

    #73
    John Duval

    John Duval

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    Can we get some info on an angle of health?

    Chris I appreciate all you're doing to report on patterns and data you can find to us.

    I think it's interesting we're not getting any info about how to increase immune function, bolster natural defenses and health - or what populations are not getting the virus. For example, I haven't heard anything about children or infants contracting the disease?

    I realize you're going for macro trends and economic impacts, but our species has weathered major viruses in the past, and will in the future - do you have any information specific to bolstering health, populations that don't seem to be affected, etc.?

    Thanks

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  • Sat, Feb 15, 2020 - 9:25am

    #74

    saxplayer00o1

    Status: Silver Member

    Joined: Jul 30 2009

    Posts: 3134

    1+

    Videos

    Videos posted on Youtube, so a high amount of scepticism is recommended:
    All the crematoriums of Hubei are backed up & cannot take bodies
    Pulitzer Prize-winning science writer Laurie Garrett, an expert on epidemics and currently, a columnist for Foreign Policy. She breaks down the current COVID-19 outbreak, preventative measures, and why she will be looking closely at Singapore and Hong Kong in the coming weeks to determine if this will develop into a global pandemic.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y-EkQ5CXVcM

    ===========================
    Corona Virus | Wuhan China real leaked live video footage*1
    Please excuse the conspiracy theory stuff at the beginning. Seeing how many people are just dropping in the streets should show that you don't want to catch this virus:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=efRTlWKSlx0

    These videos have been posted since late January:

    =======================
    The hospital built in 5 days leaks! And not a little...a lot! Exclusive insider's look!!!
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KSTYPYZDtH4

     

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  • Sat, Feb 15, 2020 - 9:32am

    Mr Curious

    Mr Curious

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    Plant based diet

    Pushing a vegetarian diet is not the major point of the article you posted. Nonetheless, now that you brought it up I've switched to a (mostly) vegetarian diet and have done extremely well on it. I highly recommend such a diet for myself. There's a good documentary called Game Changers on Netflix dealing with this topic for those interested. Interestingly,  an analysis of the bones from Roman gladiators showed they subsisted mainly on a plant based diet.

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  • Sat, Feb 15, 2020 - 9:37am

    #76
    westcoastjan

    westcoastjan

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    Posts: 439

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    More trickle down economic effects

    https://www.nationthailand.com/business/30382150?utm_source=slide_relate&utm_medium=internal_referral

    Evidence of Covid-19 triggering more financial stresses on an already over burdened and over indebted financial system. The trickle down collateral damage on local economies will be unfathomable. This kind of support cannot possibly be done without continued massive money printing, which lends more credibility to the idea that this is the triggering Black Swan event.

    I feel like the guy on the Titanic who saw the iceberg but knew it was too late to turn. An apt pun would be I have a deep sinking feeling. Lordy, this is not good..... 😳

    Jan

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  • Sat, Feb 15, 2020 - 9:41am

    #77
    Nairobi

    Nairobi

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    Send that executive back to the mail room

    Getting back to the main  topic of this thread for a second, I think we are belatedly discovering we in the West have an excessive reliance on China for a multitude of critical manufactured goods.

    Board rooms had better start waking up because shareholder value is about to crater in some industries because too many eggs were put in the same unstable basket.

    The next time some clever young executive tries to convince management that moving all its production to China is a great idea he should be promptly demoted.

    Or just duct tape his mouth shut and ask the strategic thinkers in the room what better options exist.

    I don't mean to be too blunt here but what is happening now is no different than what would happen in a war and you lose ALL your critical supply lines at once.

    Obviously we just got caught unprepared. Too many are assuming production will restart within weeks. But that thinking is clearly flawed.

    The hawks in Washington who have been leading the charge to repatriate manufacturing production domestically have been right all along.

    We need a new domestic strategic industrial policy and it's going to need a lot of support and heavy incentives to unwind years of our hollowed out manufacturing centers.

    Lets get it done. Globalization has now taught us it's a double edged sword and the risks are very real to highly developed economies.

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  • Sat, Feb 15, 2020 - 9:43am

    Mr Curious

    Mr Curious

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    Antibiotics

    I know a person with severe gluten intolerance (Celiac) who is otherwise extremely fit, eats almost the best exclusively organic diet that one can etc... But once exposed to wheat, here comes a sinus infectious which invariably turns immediately into something that requires Zithromax. To make matters worse, this seems to happen now with corn based products as well. My theory it's anything that has to do with glyphosate....Anyway, I'm wondering if there's a legal way to stockpile on some of these antibiotics.

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  • Sat, Feb 15, 2020 - 9:56am

    Mr Curious

    Mr Curious

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    American Prepper

    Nairobi, totally agree with you on the importance of community. I think there are some rural areas in the US that are going to do fairly well. On the other hand, like you said it's a shame that so much of the American prepper community is based on the model of holing up in a fortress with some supplies and shooting anyone that comes near.

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  • Sat, Feb 15, 2020 - 9:58am

    mntnhousepermi

    mntnhousepermi

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    charging your electronics

    remember that your car already is a generator.  Keep your car filled up with gas.  Have an adapter to charge the devices in your car.  If it is just a cell phone, well that doesn't take much charge, you can charge that in your turned off, parked car many times.  Eventually, you will want to start the car and let it idle to recharge your car battery.  So, to me, if you own a car, just recharge your rechargable lantern, cell phone, flashlight and radio  batteries from the car and no need to buy extra equipment that may not be robust.  You already maintain and keep the car in good working order

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  • Sat, Feb 15, 2020 - 10:04am

    saxplayer00o1

    Status: Silver Member

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    Posts: 3134

    8+

    Diet

    As someone who has tried a lot of diets (not for weight, since that has been no problem) I can't say enough about how great I have felt since giving up sugar, grains and processed foods (including those with the cheap oils). This is why so many people have done well on a "paleo diet".

    As one who is never afraid to experiment on myself I have been going zero carb and have not had one single serving of fruit or veggies for over a year. How do people do on a diet like this? Scurvy? Malnutrition from no vitamins and minerals? Sickness? We're up to 47 pages: https://meatrx.com/category/success-stories/

    Fitness guru Jack LaLanne used to say: “If man made it, don't eat it."

    Vegan, carnivore or anywhere in between: we just need to drop the junk!

    We need a good immune system during this potential pandemic.

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  • Sat, Feb 15, 2020 - 10:33am

    #82
    Lineman7

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    4 to 1 Ratio Symtomatic to Asymtomatic Cases

    With the published ratio of 80% (or 4 to 1) symptomatic to asymptomatic cases the estimated number of asymptomatic cases in a country can be calculated. Thus the US has 15 symptomatic cases identified so 15X4=60 estimated asymptomatic cases in public. Singapore has 56X4= 224 estimated cases in public.

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  • Sat, Feb 15, 2020 - 10:37am

    #83
    Tom Sammy

    Tom Sammy

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    More media suppression? Can someone start an official list of timely/non filtered sources?

    I continue to be flabbergasted at the lack of good updates available when searching for Coronavirus updates on traditional search engines.   In my latest search I was looking for the new number of infected on the cruise ship.
    You would think this would be front and center when doing a “coronavirus cruise ship” search, but alas more digging was needed to find the current count of 286 on a random news report.   I think the powers that be said “hey this cruise ship keeps getting worse, let’s see what we can do to minimize negative coverage”

     

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  • Sat, Feb 15, 2020 - 10:46am

    Thrivalista

    Thrivalista

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    Posts: 56

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    Masks are to protect *against* each of us, too.

    Dr. John Campbell points out we should all assume we're superspreaders, and therefore wear masks out in public to protect others. Because once you *know* you've got it, it's likely too late.

    I can imagine masks with the text "it's not you, it's me" to help put others at ease. 😉

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  • Sat, Feb 15, 2020 - 11:20am

    Awka72

    Awka72

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    Posts: 10

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    Antiobiotics

    If you do a bit of research, Fishmox, as an example, is widely available.

    Of course in normal times, I would consult a veterinarian, but in a true emergency? Alternatives would be nice to have.

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  • Sat, Feb 15, 2020 - 11:21am

    #86
    Alexis

    Alexis

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    Joined: Jan 26 2020

    Posts: 65

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    Estrogen, cardioprotective?

    -Somewhere along my nursing career, I learned estrogen was cardio protective which is typically why females have less heart attacks then men (from what I recall at least, could be wrong). I have not stopped to verify this but *wondering* if phytoestrogens foods would be good against viruses that attack the heart if estrogen is protective. Wondering out loud if someone else had any input on that.

    -agreed with above, fact finding getting harder. Def being censored. Also, the link above to the U.K. couple on the princess cruise ship, both now have mild coughs or other symptoms that set my RN triage skills Off... I will not be surprised if everyone on that ship is infected, but just not tested yet.

    - has anyone thought that the test kits are getting false negatives due to the specimen location? If ace2 is not typically in the upper respiratory tract, they should be doing lower respiratory tract specimens (bronchial lavage, or “deep cough” sputum samples- impossible if not symptomatic). I wonder if they should start testing fecal specimens for more accurate testing. Also, if I recall correctly SARS ended up having significant transmission via feces as well. Maybe the air plumes from sewage and pipes are more the transmission source vs sneezing.

    - lastly, if GI ends up being the more transmissible source, does anyone know how activated charcoal absorbs viruses in the GI tract? I understand charcoal is supposed to absorb viruses from air, I’ve read some info about activated charcoal absorbing bacterial endotoxins in the GI tract. Looking into having some charcoal on hand to try if we get sick  maybe it will help absorb some virus from gi lining and reduce overall viral load? My kids and I us charcoal toothpaste due to one with dairy and corn allergy, so we already know they tolerate the charcoal fine.

     

    just some random thoughts interested to see if anyone had any ideas about!

     

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  • Sat, Feb 15, 2020 - 11:42am

    #87
    Matties

    Matties

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    Joined: Jan 30 2020

    Posts: 160

    ACE2 have not seen this chart yet

    https://www.zerohedge.com/health/hubei-doctors-warn-even-deadlier-coronavirus-reinfection-causing-sudden-heart-attacks

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  • Sat, Feb 15, 2020 - 11:46am

    #88
    Tom Sammy

    Tom Sammy

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    Posts: 135

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    We always knew cash was filthy!

    Even cash is quarantined in China!

    Many of us don’t use cash but think about this when shopping....also any other forms of paper (ticketing/passes).

    Other thoughts:

    Even when not using cash think about all the filthy touchcreens/buttons at the registers

    Sometimes you are asked to hand a card or Id to someone .  I just picked up an online order I had to show my id, sometimes they want to hold ur Id then hand it back, I try to keep hold and not let them touch it.

    https://www.novinite.com/articles/203178/China+is+Cleaning+and+Quarantining+Banknotes+due+to+the+Coronavirus

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  • Sat, Feb 15, 2020 - 12:00pm

    SteveW

    SteveW

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    Posts: 159

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    ACE2 and ACE2 receptors

    Steve, the video from post 36 is a pretty good but let me have a go at your questions.

    1. ACE2 is the gene that ultimately produces a protein, called ACE2, inside the endoplasmic reticulum of the cell, which is the protein factory that produces and transports proteins. It is a type of protein that is transported to the cell surface and pushed through the cell membrane, so its receptor sits outside the cell but is anchored inside the cell.

    2. The virus spike protein binds to the ACE2 receptor which is necessary to transport the virus into the cell where it does its nasty work. The normal function of the ACE2 receptor which is a carboxypeptidase (meaning it removes amino acids from the carboxyl end of the chain) is to convert angiotensin I and angiotensin II to peptide hormones of 9 (nonapeptide) and 7 aminoacids.

    Angiotensin I  Asp - Arg - Val - Tyr - Ile - His - Pro - Phe - His - ( cleaves here)– Leu

    Angiotensin II Asp - Arg - Val - Tyr - Ile - His - Pro - (cleaves here) - Phe

    It is a good question whether viral binding blocks normal function. I'm inclined to think that the normal function is physiologically regulated, possibly by the cleavage of angiotensinogen, which is an even bigger peptide that is the source of the angiotensins and that there are still plenty of receptors for normal function.

    3. The virus binds at the ACE2 receptor site on the ACE2 molecule.

    4. The lifestyle of the virus is to enter cells, take over the machinery and produce new virus that is continually released from infected cells.

    The video contrasted using an antibody to block the viral spike protein or soluble ACE2 to to overwhelm the cellular ACE2 and therefore block the spike protein. Given the known results with SARS antibodies, where secondary challenge of immunized animals caused severe lung pathology, it is to be hoped that tests of soluble ACE2 are ongoing. I doubt that this important hormone system is regulated by the number of receptors but more likely by the amount of angiotensins.

    Hope that's not too boring and probably way more than you wanted to know.

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  • Sat, Feb 15, 2020 - 12:04pm

    #90
    MariaDWhite

    MariaDWhite

    Status: Member

    Joined: Feb 10 2020

    Posts: 8

    5+

    Update on Brighton UK

    A cleaning expert has looked at the photos released on the cleaning of one of the affected surgeries, and he's not impressed:

    https://www.theargus.co.uk/news/18237356.coronavirus-brighton-bosss-fears-county-oak-clean-up/

    This reminds me that one of the new cases of the virus was somebody who inspected the cruise ship with COVID-19 cases, who was presumably wearing what he thought was the correct protective equipment.

    One thing that was discovered with Ebola was how important was to have the correct protective equipment and knowing how to put it on, and more importantly, take it off. People were blaming the low education of African nurses, which always sounded to me a little racist, until nurses in Europe and the USA started catching it as well. That's when people figured out that a lot of protective equipment was unsuitable.

    One of the key discoveries was that it was no good to be protected if, at the time of taking it off, you then touched with your bare hands the potentially contaminated surface of the coverings. That's the point of wearing two pairs of gloves: It isn't that a single pair won't protect you, it's that's pretty much impossible to take off a single pair of gloves without touching the outside of the gloves with your bare hands at some point.

    It would be really interesting if we get information about what equipment is being used in Wuhan right now, and how effective it's being in protecting healthcare workers.

     

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  • Sat, Feb 15, 2020 - 12:06pm

    #91
    westcoastjan

    westcoastjan

    Status: Silver Member

    Joined: Jun 04 2012

    Posts: 439

    2+

    Natural antibiotics

    https://www.foodmatters.com/article/5-powerful-antibiotics-that-dont-require-a-prescription

     

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  • Sat, Feb 15, 2020 - 12:55pm

    chrissie.sugden

    chrissie.sugden

    Status: Member

    Joined: Jan 26 2015

    Posts: 11

    2+

    Legally buy antibiotics

    You dont say which country you are in, but check out the Doom and Bloom website. They list Fish and Bird antibiotics which are pharmaceutical grade (so suitable for humans too) which you can buy online for an emergency stash.

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  • Sat, Feb 15, 2020 - 1:25pm

    #93
    Matties

    Matties

    Status: Member

    Joined: Jan 30 2020

    Posts: 160

    2+

    A song for the afraid

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  • Sat, Feb 15, 2020 - 1:30pm

    dtrammel

    Status: Silver Member

    Joined: May 03 2011

    Posts: 800

    3+

    Remove Glove Last and in a Bleach/Water Bath

    Good points Maria. Yes its next to impossible to remove a complete hazmat setup without accidentally contaminating previously clean parts of your body. The advantage has always been that a little bit of carelessness didn't matter. Probably still doesn't given that a bit of virus laden droplets on your pants is probably going to die in the few hours before you touch it. That's if you aren't immediately hitting the shower after degowning.

    Your observation about gloves seems to me to have a simple solution though. Once you are to the point of removing them, do so in a deep pitcher of at least 1% bleach. So submerge your hands and forearms, remove the gloves under water and then while your hands are wet, toss the soiled gloves in the trash. This disinfects them and you.

    I should mention something about Lysol/other disinfectants. If you read the bottle it says to spray the surface AND leave for 10 minutes wet. Not immediately wipe up like too many people do. You have to let the active ingredients have the time to kill the virus, otherwise you are wasting your effort.

    So you would deglove in bleach/water and then allow your hands to air dry.

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  • Sat, Feb 15, 2020 - 2:17pm

    #95
    kunga

    kunga

    Status: Bronze Member

    Joined: Feb 26 2017

    Posts: 342

    Summer projects and supplies, etc.

    I live rural and had some fairly simple projects planned for this year.  Main one was wind/ privacy screens.  Got my lumber last year but needed screening materials I bet come from China.  Also, I feel the Chinese do make good solar yard lights. So I have ordered these things to keep me busy, not bored as I stay home this year.    Also, paper products like computer/typing paper and paper bank checks, maybe stamps, envelopes and boxes, too. Also plastics like blanks for credit/debit cards, driver's license.  Plastic sheeting, garbage bags, ziploks.  Plastic string for the string trimmer.

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  • Sat, Feb 15, 2020 - 2:28pm

    #96

    saxplayer00o1

    Status: Silver Member

    Joined: Jul 30 2009

    Posts: 3134

    1+

    Now over 69,000

    Deaths:

    1,666
    Recovered:

    9,200

    Country,
    Territory

    Total Cases
    New
    Cases
    Total
    Deaths
    New
    Deaths
    Total
    Recovered
    Serious,
    Critical

    China
    68,341
    +4,490
    1,662
    +282
    9,081
    11,053

    Japan
    338
    +79
    1

    12
    9

    Singapore
    72
    +5

    18
    6

    Hong Kong
    56

    1

    1
    7

    Thailand
    34
    +1

    14
    2

    S. Korea
    28

    9

    Malaysia
    22
    +3

    7

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  • Sat, Feb 15, 2020 - 2:52pm

    Thors Hammer

    Thors Hammer

    Status: Member

    Joined: Feb 13 2020

    Posts: 31

    6+

    Diagnostic methods

    I wonder if the possibility that dogs may have the capability of identifying the Coronavirus 19 virus has been explored?  Dogs have one of the world's most sophisticated sensory organs, capable of locating bodies under water and identifying the presence of cancer.  Perhaps trained dogs could outperform the unreliable lab tests now being used?  And give instant results.

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  • Sat, Feb 15, 2020 - 2:57pm

    #98
    Matties

    Matties

    Status: Member

    Joined: Jan 30 2020

    Posts: 160

    Some positive...

    https://www.pravdareport.com/news/health/144330-coronavirus_russia/

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  • Sat, Feb 15, 2020 - 3:05pm

    #99
    kunga

    kunga

    Status: Bronze Member

    Joined: Feb 26 2017

    Posts: 342

    Super spreader on Diamond Princess

    In Matties post #47, above, below the ACE2 chart, he posted an article about sudden heart attacks from SARS CoV19 re infection.  Hidden in that article was info. I seem to have missed.  Evidently, a European woman has been identified on the cruise ship, victim Rebecca Frasure, as a super spreader.

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  • Sat, Feb 15, 2020 - 3:09pm

    Thors Hammer

    Thors Hammer

    Status: Member

    Joined: Feb 13 2020

    Posts: 31

    Face Diapers

    In the videos emerging from China the vast majority of people are wearing masks they are accustomed to use to counteract the air pollution that plagues their cities.  These have almost no protective capacity against airborne viruses --they are mere fashion statements AKA "face diapers".  No wonder the Corvid-19 bio weapon has brought the Chinese economy to a standstill in a few weeks.

    By contrast, N95  style masks fully seal the mouth and nose, and are about 95 % effective.

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  • Sat, Feb 15, 2020 - 3:28pm

    Matties

    Matties

    Status: Member

    Joined: Jan 30 2020

    Posts: 160

    Re : Super spreader

    Yes, if it doesn't make you sick, it will chill a while in you.

    With SARS they found the virus stayed with the cured up to 80 days... Super.

    But with SARS they were lucky. It started 2003 March, if i remember correctly.

    And went out with summer. But this one started begin December.

    And an outdated political structure.

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  • Sat, Feb 15, 2020 - 3:33pm

    Coronaphobe

    Coronaphobe

    Status: Member

    Joined: Mar 07 2011

    Posts: 3

    2+

    Anecdotal evidence of cremated numbers being grossly underreported

    This is dated and about a week old, but here's an interesting investigative journalist interview with a Wuhan crematorium manager:

    Some data points gathered from the video:

    • After people die, hospitals are ordered to disinfect and pack the bodies within 30 minutes (though this may not be possible)
    • A single crematorium received 127 bodies in one day
      • 8 of these 127 bodies were confirmed pneumonia [CORVID-19?] based on their birth certificates [only 6.3% reported confirmed pneumonia]
      • 116 corpses cremated that day
      • 48 suspected [CORVID-19] cases as written on their death certificates
      • 38% corpses were from hospitals
      • 61% died at home

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  • Sat, Feb 15, 2020 - 3:49pm

    Mr Curious

    Mr Curious

    Status: Member

    Joined: Feb 03 2020

    Posts: 78

    6+

    Availability of Antibiotics

    Good advice, except that my wife kicks me to the couch after I eat garlic 🙂 Essential oils could be on your list as well. we should all become less dependent on antibiotics, but holy cow, when you need some, say for a UTI or something, you really need it.

    I am a bit freaked on this issue after information came out that 97% of antibiotics in the US are from Hubei province. According to CIDRAP (center for infectious disease research and policy), US farmers use 6 million kilograms of "medically important" antibiotics in the meat and poultry industry. What happens here with supply lines I am curious.

     

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  • Sat, Feb 15, 2020 - 3:49pm

    thc0655

    Status: Platinum Member

    Joined: Apr 27 2010

    Posts: 2025

    2+

    Interesting questions about sanitizing city streets in China

    https://www.americanpartisan.org/2020/02/but-where-did-the-spray-trucks-come-from/

    Where did the spray trucks come from? How were they built in roughly a month’s time? What is the solution they are spraying and concentration of said solution? What is the second and third order effects of these chemicals? How were they mobilized this fast?

    All uncomfortable questions with probably less convenient answers. I wonder if they filled out their EPA environmental impact survey forms?

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  • Sat, Feb 15, 2020 - 4:05pm

    CrisisMode

    CrisisMode

    Status: Member

    Joined: Dec 21 2011

    Posts: 34

    New Info on Covid-19

    Here's an astounding analysis from Zero Hedge on the latest scenario analysis:

     

    https://www.zerohedge.com/health/four-coronavirus-scenarios-bad-worse-ugly-and-unthinkable

     

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  • Sat, Feb 15, 2020 - 4:05pm

    nordicjack

    nordicjack

    Status: Silver Member

    Joined: Feb 03 2020

    Posts: 590

    3+

    I might change my strategy

    I was thinking this would upset the economic climate - sure.. I thought it would overwhelm the hospital and medical systems ..  But the more I am thinking of the big picture with this thing more deadly in a second or 3rd wave.,  I am considering investing a really nice lawn chair - stock of beer.. some cigars..  and take a front row seat to Armageddon.

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  • Sat, Feb 15, 2020 - 4:08pm

    Mr Curious

    Mr Curious

    Status: Member

    Joined: Feb 03 2020

    Posts: 78

    1+

    keto diet

    Hey Sax, I've done the keto diet more or less and felt great. If I went too hardcore (close to zero carbs), I would get dizzy and lost some muscle along with the fat. In your comment, you say something about no vegetables, which I wouldn't recommend. You can have a massive amount of keto friendly vegetable matter (broccoli, cauliflower, cabbage yum yum) and still stay pretty low carbs. Avoid vegetables drenched in Roundup if you can. It seems like the processed sugar and bleached white bread/pastries are the main thing to avoid.

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  • Sat, Feb 15, 2020 - 4:14pm

    dtrammel

    Status: Silver Member

    Joined: May 03 2011

    Posts: 800

    6+

    Sharon Astyk on this Virus - Part 1: Preparations

    For those, like me, who have been looking at resource depletion, peak oil, income inequality and off grid living for a long while, the name Sharon Astyk will be familiar. For those that don't know her, here is a brief bio:

    https://www.resilience.org/resilience-author/sharon-astyk/

    Someone sent me what she posted on FB recently about this crisis, and I thought people here would be interested. It was in two parts, the first on her suggestions for preparations. (Which I will post to this comment).

    The second part is her estimate of how the crisis will affect the American national election. She's clearly a Democratic supporter, and gets a ding or two in on Trump, but I did find her thoughts on the various effects to a line closely with what I think may happen.

    ---

    Sharon Astyk
    February 12 - On Preparations:

    Not looking to freak people out, but since preparedness is what I do (or used to, anyhow) I did want to talk about the ways that Coronavirus could alter things if it is NOT effectively contained in China.

    At this moment, honestly, China's level of containment is pretty impressive, and it is important. While I am certain the Chinese state is engaging in all sorts of human rights violations, in a sense the rest of the world is complicit in them - very few states are authoritarian enough to be able to shut down a virus rapidly at this stage. The fact that almost all cases are in China, and contained mostly to limited areas is hella impressive, even as it is also often appalling.

    If and when coronavirus begins to spread substantively (something we probably won't know for weeks, there's a substantial lag time in the models) it is very UNLIKELY that the US, for example, would be able to contain it. Enacting the kind of travel and personal activity restrictions that China has would be much more difficult here. Independence and personal rights are the way to go most of the time, but they are a two-edged sword in a situation like this.

    It is worth noting that you don't need a lot of cases of coronavirus to effectively shut things down. Vietnam closed its schools with fewer than a dozen cases. Hong Kong has cases in the double digits still, but shortages and bare supermarket shelves are already a problem. The actuality of the situation and the anxiety level are only tangentially related. And it works the other way around - the Chinese central government announced that it was expecting workers in other cities to return to work. Economic pressures can reduce other precautions as authorities weigh costs and benefits.

    If I were a betting woman, my guess is that the global spread would really take off from Singapore, which yesterday announced its first "untraceable" case - ie, someone who go the disease ambiently, rather than by travelling to China or close contact with any known carrier. That's just a guess, but there are no travel restrictions from Singapore, and it is central hub.

    A lot of people are circulating various pieces of internet wisdom designed to remind them that for most of the world Flu is a bigger risk than coronavirus at this point, and that's absolutely true, but a little misleading. Yes, you should worry more about flu than coronavirus for today. Yes you should get a flu shot. But it is a an apples and oranges comparison too. This year's flus have been circulating since October, the first cases of Coronavirus emerged in early-to-mid-December. A flu carrier on average will transmit flu to 2 other people, while coronavirus seems to be more like 4 - which is very high.

    Annual influenza has a death rate of 0.1-0.2 % of infected individuals. Coronavirus has a death rate of about 2-3 % of infected individuals. Moreover, the death rate is higher in cities with very high rates of infection, suggesting that when the medical system is overwhelmed the rate could be greater. Another concern is that a recent study suggested that it is very hard to keep the disease from spreading within hospitals in ways we don't entirely understand - which is concerning for two reasons. First, if medical personnel are sickened, that affects the capacity of the system to care for everyone. Second, it means that people dealing with other medical concerns need to worry about transmission, and may delay or avoid medical treatment which ups the overall risks.

    My guess is we'll know whether coronavirus is going to circulate globally by mid-April, but if it starts soon, it could be widespread before that. Or, it could end up being contained. No one is sure. Even if it does become endemic, it isn't likely to be an endless thing - most coronaviruses don't like warm humid weather. SARS and other similar viruses mostly petered out in early summer. The odds are good that we are talking about a limited period of time for this outbreak.

    So what should you do? Well, not panic is the first thing. It isn't time to panic. Trust me, I'll tell you ;-). I can't give medical advice, but I can tell you what I think and what my family will do.

    1. If you have medical care you've been putting off, get it done soon if you can. If you can't or don't want to, ask if you can wait a while, maybe to summer. Don't actually risk harm to yourself by doing this, though. Be smart.

    2. I would recommend people give up optional international travel at this point. Stay off cruise ships and out of Disney and water parks in case of fecal-oral transmission (likely but not confirmed.) No one needs to go on a cruise. Plan local vacations and buy trip insurance.

    3. Get a flu shot if you haven't, take a multivitamin, get some exercise and generally take care of your health. Wash hands a lot. It may not prevent coronavirus (except for the hand washing) but you'll be a lot happier if you aren't weakened by flu or other winter illness first.

    4. Don't buy all the fucking masks. Seriously, the masks don't work that well anyway, even the good ones. They are best for people who are sick and don't want to transmit things to others. The masks lose efficacy quickly, and there's a shortage. So if you do buy some, buy only enough for you to wear in places where there's a real risk of exposure. Save them for others - no hoarding.

    5. If coronavirus starts to spread and you have the option STAY HOME. Especially keep kids, who may be asymptomatic carriers home from venues with lots of older people. Visit the grandparents for passover and easter by skype, not in person. Not everyone can stay home, but if you can, help out by not putting others at risk.

    6. If you have any power in this system, use it to help reduce transmission. If you are the boss, give your employees sick time and close down when it seems prudent. Pay them and help them out. If you are in charge of an organization, find ways to reduce social crowds while still keeping connected - teach your classes over the internet, let people call in to meetings, help people engaged in religious and community support from a distance. If you provide support for those who struggle, find ways to continue that support without risk - organize food pantry drop offs, or meal drop offs in safe ways. Leaders, teachers and community organizers should be planning NOW.

    7. Support healthcare professionals in your community who will bear a heavy burden in a crisis. They may need meals, childcare, transportation, someone to give a hand if they are sleeping at the hospital or working double and triple shifts. Be a friend and bring coffee. Help them do their jobs.

    8. If you have extra money, do some preparing - have extra food and supplies in case you are quarantined. But don't just buy for yourself - if you are fortunate enough to have extra, plan to share. Up your donations to local community organizations that serve the vulnerable so they have extra to give. Organize with your nieghbors now to plan for mutual support and to make sure everyone has what they need. Know your neighbors and be there for each other.

    9. If you end up quarantined, life is likely to be more boring than scary. Make some plans for what to do. Learn a new thing. read a new book. Have some fun stuff to do with kids. Make sure you get outside for a bit every day.

    10. Do not obsessively read all the news and work yourself into a total frenzy. It won't help. Trust me ;-). Honestly, we will probably all mostly die of something much more boring anyway, hopefully MUCH MUCH LATER ;-).

    I'll have some more thoughts on planning later, but for the moment the main rule is use your brain, not your adrenal glands to prepare.

     

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  • Sat, Feb 15, 2020 - 4:16pm

    dtrammel

    Status: Silver Member

    Joined: May 03 2011

    Posts: 800

    4+

    Sharon Astyk on this Virus - Part 2: The American Election

    Sharon Astyk
    February 12 at 9:48 AM ·

    One thing I should have included in my "guidelines for responding to coronavirus" is "don't be a racist asshole." If you are pulling your kids away when Asian kids come near them, avoiding sitting near Asian folks, bad mouthing Asian cultures, cuisines, and making jokes and stereotypical assumptions about China and this disease you are not making yourself or anyone else safer, but you are showing us you are a moron. And if fear makes you racist, you always were and deserve what you get.

    ---

    So last time I wrote about Coronavirus it was about how to prepare personally. Today I want to think about how, if it is not stopped, Coronavirus might affect the US Presidential elections, because I think that's a really interesting topic. I will add my usual caveat to any predictions I might make here which is "I do not believe everything I pull out of my ass is the divine truth, so neither should you. This is speculation and hopefully worth a little more than the nothing you are paying for it, but don't go overboard."

    It is worth noting that at the moment, new cases are declining day over day in China, although deaths are at their highest rate. This, of course, makes sense, because most people that die from the disease would do so two to three weeks after contracting the illness.

    It is possible that this is a sign it will be successfully contained in China. It is also possible that this is a sign China is running out of testing supplies or manpower to to identify new mild cases. We shall see. Even if it is contained within China, it is also possible that new clusters in Hong Kong and Singapore will result in substantive global spread. As WHO officials have announced several times, if it gets loose in a country without the capacity to deal with it, it could spread for a very long time. It seems not implausible that there are countries already having outbreaks that we just don't know about - or we could get lucky. We just don't know. I am not speaking today about how likely I find this particular outcome, just exploring how it might play out if it did happen.

    So let us skip over the likelihood issue and ask what would happen if a significant outbreak occurred in the US, similar to what is happening now in a number of countries. And more specifically, what would happen POLITICALLY in a highly contested election year.

    Remember, up to 40% of people infected with coronavirus have no or minimal symptoms. A woman interviewed from a hospital in Japan who tested positive noted that she had fewer symptoms than with the last cold she'd had. Almost no children have tested positive for this disease - which suggests either that children are unlikely to be infected, or that they are likely to have few or no symptoms and thus only be tested after someone else in the family shows symptoms.

    A significant outbreak in the US is likely to begin with only a few cases, but with people who have travelled internationally returning home and interacting in the community for some time before the first cases emerge. This is, for example, how the British man who attended a conference in Singapore unintentionally infected 10 people and three countries.

    The first effect of a substantive outbreak in the US when detected is likely to be panic and anxiety, and a lot of economic disruption. Areas where cases are active will close schools and workplaces. America lacks strong social supports and strong pressures on employers to keep checks coming, so a great deal of economic hardship is likely to hit.

    Trump's basic isolationism is likely to get played up here, as he closes down flights from one country after another. But this will be a "shutting the barn door after the horses are out" thing most likely, and is going to be challenging if the world is dealing with outbreaks in a large number of places at once. But while Trump will be good at political gestures like blaming non-white people for spreading disease and shutting down flights, he's also going to be engaging in a very delicate balancing act, since he's essentially running for re-election on the economy - shutdowns in China are already having effects on businesses and supply chains. The economy could easily stop being an asset for Trump.

    I think it is a safe bet that Trump will respond by running up racist rhetoric and attacking non-white people and countries that he doesn't depend on economically. And I think it is a safe bet that when people are frightened, that kind of rhetoric will gain some real traction. I expect us to see some serious discrimination, and could certainly imagine the King of "kids in cages" ordering all members of particular national groups out of public schools or public discourse (even if he can't enact it). If coronavirus begins to spread in the US I would expect our already extremist and nasty public discourse to get a lot nastier.

    I would also expect, if the US is not successful in containing an outbreak (which I think we will find very difficult given the high spread rate of the disease) that Trump would find his overall position weakened by this. He is, after all, where the buck stops, and his political choices not to fill or actively strip agencies that would work to control the disease are likely to come back to bite him. Moreover, unless the disease is contained, an economic slowdown and high costs to quarantined populations seems all but inevitable. Coronavirus is not a good thing for Trump.

    This will affect the Democratic Primary as well, but how and how much depends heavily on timing. If coronavirus hits the US fairly soon, I could imagine it substantively affecting the delegate count.

    All Democrats will be racing to answer questions and formulate a better plan than Trump's for handling a pandemic. My money is on Elizabeth Warren (who is not currently doing all that well) to have formulated a coherent and practical plan and list of actions ready to go, and I think the contrast might serve her well if things happened early. I also see Bernie, the health care maven doing well with this, and probably Mayor Pete whose team is very good at leveraging technology compensating well for reductions in in-person events, as well. Basically any Democratic candidate is going to have a better plan than Trump because a. they don't actually have to enact it, just describe it and b. they mostly aren't fools.

    I would expect some bickering over whose plan is better, but mostly solidarity among the candidates, because a pandemic outbreak will be an actual national emergency. Where this gets complicated is in the timing and the actual practical realities of life in a an outbreak. First thing to be cancelled will be handshaking events, arm in arm selfies and rallies. The Democrats may have to shift to mostly campaigning by media, often to people trapped at home with plenty of time to watch things. This favors the candidates with the largest war chests - Bloomberg and Sanders and possibly Steyer if he's still around.

    It will depend on when this happens. I doubt an outbreak could reach critical mass in the US before early March at this point, which means we will probably be after super Tuesday. If someone, probably front-runner Sanders gets a decisive number of delegates in that election, it might not matter hugely - his momentum and money would carry him through, especially if he gets the endorsement of Yang and Warren. If Biden tanks in SC or on Super Tuesday, Biden has been making noises that he'd rather support Bernie than Pete. That might be decisive. If, however, the outbreak waits until April or May it may not matter much

    On the other hand, If no one seems in line to to get a delegate majority, that's a different story and it certainly gives other candidates openings. I'd say that in the net, an outbreak is good for Bloomberg and Warren, neutral to good for Sanders (who could be outspent by Bloomberg) and bad for everyone else unless Klobuchar knocks Pete out content and gains Biden's southern support- which I find unlikely.

    The economic effects of quarantine and a global outbreak are likely to be good for the left-wing of the party. They are the ones focused on ensuring health care to everyone. They are the ones who want to be sure everyone eats and no one gets kicked out because they can't pay rent. In a crisis, Democratic socialism and its near neighbor Warrenism are likely to look extremely good. The moderates will be arguing that only they can get the economy back on track afterwards, but most people will care more about now. Moreover the mild strain of isolationism of the "we're all in this together and let's prioritize American needs" that underlies Sanders and Warren's rhetoric is likely to play well whether it should or not when anxieties about the contaminated "other" are a factor.

    But there's another issue here besides the political implications in general. And that's the actual disease. All politicians spend their time shaking hands and getting close to people. They spend their time and energy at large public gatherings doing precisely the things that are most likely to get someone infected. The disease can float around with minimal evidence for a while, so the other question of how this could affect things is by actual candidates becoming ill and either unable to campaign or incapacitated.

    Any candidate will have to suspend campaigning for several weeks if they get sick. That could be critical in March and April depending on delegate counts. Any candidate is vulnerable as long as they are actively campaigning. Moreover, Biden, Bloomberg, Sanders, Warren and Klobuchar (ok, she's 59, but close enough) are all in the age range of over-60 folks who have a much higher risk of a severe or critical or even fatal case, and at a minimum, longer recovery times. Only Mayor Pete, of the major candidates is young enough that the odds are in his favor of shaking it off (and we should remember that the disease has been critical in some younger people, this is just about odds.)

    If coronavirus is widespread and candidates get sick, this could literally shake things up. All the older candidates are going to want to select a much-younger VP and early on. Sanders and Biden are probably the most at-risk (although Warren isn't that much younger the critical cases are disproportionately male.) It is also worth noting that Trump and Pence are both in the critical age range, but they simply do a lot less hand shaking. Still a lot of things could happen if a candidate gets sick, and all of them have a higher than average risk. This is a wild-card.

    It should be obvious that no one wants to see coronavirus widespread in the US. It should also be obvious that it is a hard disease to contain. My guess is that an outbreak will ultimately make it more likely that a Democratic candidate will win, but also make it much harder to have a conventional election. I would watch for a lot of spoilers and some new precedents to be set. I will go out on a limb here and say that if a significant outbreak happened soon, I could imagine it revitalizing Warren's campaign. Sick people want a Mom to take care of them, and Warren is both practical and motherly in that respect.(I should say this is not a partisan statement, I currently think there's little hope for Warren.) At a minimum, we will be living in interesting times.

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  • Sat, Feb 15, 2020 - 4:20pm

    Coronaphobe

    Coronaphobe

    Status: Member

    Joined: Mar 07 2011

    Posts: 3

    4+

    Pesticide spray vehicles and machinery

    thc0655, I don't have a link handy, but I was watching a YouTube video on ADVChina's channel (https://www.youtube.com/user/churchillcustoms) and they were suggesting that the spraying was actually a common scene in much of China (including Wuhan) and they typically are spraying some kind of pesticide meant to kill roaches and rats (a big problem in many parts).

    There's no way to know if they are spraying their usual pesticide or actually some kind of antiviral agent, but in the same video they shared a clip showing cockroaches coming into an apartment from the water/sewer pipes and dying in the apartment immediately after a heavy neighborhood spraying.

    My take on it is that, chances are, they are just throwing everything at the problem that they have at their disposal at this point with or without any evidence it will actually result in suppressing the virus spread.

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  • Sat, Feb 15, 2020 - 4:25pm

    CrisisMode

    CrisisMode

    Status: Member

    Joined: Dec 21 2011

    Posts: 34

    1+

    No, No, veggies . . FEAR the carbs . . .

    No Carrots,

    or Beets,

    or Potatoes,

    or Onions,

    or Jicama,

    or Rice,

    or Corn,

    or Apples

    or Mangoes,

    or Oats,

    or Quinoa,

    or Wild Rice,

    or Squash,

    or Sweet Potatoes,

    or Bananas,

    or Peas,

    or Beans,

    or Lentils,

    or Chickpeas,

    or Amaranth,

    or . . . or . . . or . . .

    ANY of that good healthy vegetable/fruit thing, you know,

    it's all got those DEADLY CARBS in them, so

    don't kill yourself eating those healthy fruits & vegetables,

    you know.

     

     

     

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  • Sat, Feb 15, 2020 - 4:28pm

    Mr Curious

    Mr Curious

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    Posts: 78

    3+

    Be happy

    Hi Dave, good advice about staying happy if possible. I would point out though, there are plenty examples of cranky pissed off old bastards with whiskey and cigars living into their 90's and beyond. In the end, your genetics either suck or they don't. Many of us will have to walk through the fire and some of us will die right next to our useless bottles of vitamins and elderberry syrup.

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  • Sat, Feb 15, 2020 - 4:29pm

    HappyCamper

    Status: Member

    Joined: Apr 16 2018

    Posts: 21

    1+

    N95 mask

    Disposable Respirators & Masks
    https://www.mscdirect.com/browse/tn/Safety/Disposable-Respirators-Masks?navid=4287922739+4288189794&searchterm=n95+mask

    Supplies are getting expensive

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  • Sat, Feb 15, 2020 - 4:48pm

    kunga

    kunga

    Status: Bronze Member

    Joined: Feb 26 2017

    Posts: 342

    2+

    Twist ties and rubber bands

    I was born BP, that is, before plastics.  My parents were adults in the 1930s.  Recycle or go without. I remember my Mom rinsing out plastic bags from the grocery store and hanging them to dry on the clothesline, flapping in the breeze. There was the rubber band later twist tie, drawer in the kitchen.  Later in life, used to laugh with friends about absurd parental habits.  Well, what goes around comes around.  Youall got some space for a clothesline?

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  • Sat, Feb 15, 2020 - 4:49pm

    wyrldtraveler

    wyrldtraveler

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    Joined: Feb 04 2020

    Posts: 65

    3+

    food not important?

    There are looming global food shortages.  The price of beans (in a country which grows them) has rocketed 10% in the past 3 months.  USDA is reporting corn harvest as 'viable' under feet of snow, with no guarantee if it could be harvested this spring.  Or if it is any good.  Some corn is not even acceptable to the grain buyers.

    Given that this is a perfect pretext for martial law, I suspect that there may not be a 2020 US election for public health reasons (virus) or public safety reasons (food riots).

    Hopefully I watch too many apocalypse videos and am wrong.

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  • Sat, Feb 15, 2020 - 4:49pm

    dtrammel

    Status: Silver Member

    Joined: May 03 2011

    Posts: 800

    What's in the trucks - D7

    I couldn't find the post, but someone mentioned that what they are spraying is the disinfectant "D7"

    https://www.allsafeindustries.com/d7-multi-use-disinfectant-decontaminant-30-gallon-kit.aspx

    Apparently China bought the entire output of the company and has been spraying it there.

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  • Sat, Feb 15, 2020 - 4:59pm

    kunga

    kunga

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    Joined: Feb 26 2017

    Posts: 342

    1+

    No carbs

    You forgot Wheat, the most evil of all ( excepting high fructose corn syrup.)

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  • Sat, Feb 15, 2020 - 5:02pm

    kunga

    kunga

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    Joined: Feb 26 2017

    Posts: 342

    D7 disinfectant spray

    Reading the articles, it appears this has hydrogen peroxide, H2O2 as the base ingredient.

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  • Sat, Feb 15, 2020 - 5:05pm

    Snow Eater

    Snow Eater

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    Posts: 28

    1+

    Snow Eater said:

    I'm AP (after plastics) but I totally do those things! I have a big twist tie and rubber band collection. I reuse plastic bags until they are too gross to keep.  Why would I pay for Saran Wrap?

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  • Sat, Feb 15, 2020 - 5:16pm

    dtrammel

    Status: Silver Member

    Joined: May 03 2011

    Posts: 800

    3+

    Wax Paper and Aluminum Foil?

    Anyone else pre-microwave?

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  • Sat, Feb 15, 2020 - 5:18pm

    dtrammel

    Status: Silver Member

    Joined: May 03 2011

    Posts: 800

    D7 Mix

    D7 is based on a patented, multi-part aqueous solution including hydrogen peroxide and an advanced four-chain quaternary ammonia formulation developed by Sandia National Laboratories.

    Part One
    Part Two
    Part Three*

    Blend of Quaternary Ammonium Compounds and Surfactants
    Hydrogen Peroxide 7.9%
    Diacetin (Required for CBW decon)

    49% of mixed formula
    49% of mixed formula
    2% of mixed formula

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  • Sat, Feb 15, 2020 - 5:27pm

    dtrammel

    Status: Silver Member

    Joined: May 03 2011

    Posts: 800

    2+

    2/15 PP Youtube Video Now Out

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KWJHXTnodS0

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  • Sat, Feb 15, 2020 - 5:40pm

    Gus Spreen

    Gus Spreen

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    Joined: Feb 14 2020

    Posts: 13

    Old School Treatments to Best Tough it Out?

    Possible to get some Homeopathic info/expertise to help sort out...

    My take away is aspirin (maybe other treatment) bad and best to strengthen the body while the virus runs its course.

    References:

    https://www.organicconsumers.org/news/homeopathy-successfully-treated-flu-epidemic-1918

    https://heine.familiedeelstra.com/sites/heine.familiedeelstra.com/files/Dewey_Homeopathy_in_Influenza.pdf.pdf

    https://www.homeopathyforwomen.org/pneumonia.htm

    https://www.1-800homeopathy.com/blog/what-potency-should-you-take/

    https://www.boironusa.com/info/

     

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  • Sat, Feb 15, 2020 - 6:04pm

    Rajkumarijay

    Rajkumarijay

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    Joined: Feb 08 2020

    Posts: 50

    1+

    Kefir?

    Maybe Kefir is the way to go right now to help stay healthy...

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  • Sat, Feb 15, 2020 - 6:08pm

    dtrammel

    Status: Silver Member

    Joined: May 03 2011

    Posts: 800

    3+

    Top Universities May Be In Trouble - No Chinese Students

    On the economic side, many of the top universities around the World depend on Chinese students, paying big bucks to attend.

    https://www.cnn.com/2020/02/15/asia/chinese-students-universities-intl-hnk/index.html

    I would expect the universities to weather a semester of loss, but if they end up having to close completely they may see some stress. Still that's a lot of money.

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  • Sat, Feb 15, 2020 - 6:12pm

    Rajkumarijay

    Rajkumarijay

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    Joined: Feb 08 2020

    Posts: 50

    7+

    On that note...

    I live in a rural community in northern NH. I stopped to buy a wok at a local cook shop and got to go talking to the proprietress about mixer stands. She indicated that it would be a good idea to buy one soon if I wanted one because she has been receiving notices from the manufacturers that parts were expected to be in short supply soon and she wasn’t sure how many she would be receiving. I thought that was rather interesting. So many parts are manufactured in China and we never really stop to think about that. And so it begins...

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  • Sat, Feb 15, 2020 - 6:41pm

    Mr Curious

    Mr Curious

    Status: Member

    Joined: Feb 03 2020

    Posts: 78

    spray stuff

    Thankfully, a relatively benign formulation

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  • Sat, Feb 15, 2020 - 6:52pm

    mch

    mch

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    Posts: 13

    3+

    H2O2 for inactivating virus

    according to this article H2O2 is useful for inactivating viruses (also cheap and not as harsh as bleach) :  https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/203115

    “H2O2 in a 3 percent concentration inactivated all the viruses under study within 1–30 min. Coronavirus and influenza viruses were found to be most sensitive.”

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  • Sat, Feb 15, 2020 - 7:04pm

    mntnhousepermi

    mntnhousepermi

    Status: Bronze Member

    Joined: Feb 19 2016

    Posts: 308

    3+

    For us non-chemists going shopping, that is hydrogen peroxide

    And, yes, that is what I use as I am allergic to chlorine bleach, the fumes are pretty harsh even for others from chlorine.

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  • Sat, Feb 15, 2020 - 7:16pm

    dtrammel

    Status: Silver Member

    Joined: May 03 2011

    Posts: 800

    1+

    Its Also Good For Plants

    Hydrogen Peroxide's extra oxygen atom is good for plant roots. They need a bit from the air to grow. I sometimes make a mix with water and pour on my container plants.

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  • Sat, Feb 15, 2020 - 7:33pm

    Tom Sammy

    Tom Sammy

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    Joined: Jan 30 2020

    Posts: 135

    3+

    New cruise ship cases - 355 total

    The infection rate is now close to 10% of the total original ship count (3,711)

    https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2020/02/16/national/science-health/japan-70-new-cases-covid19-diamond-princess-cruise-ship/#.Xki2Dy9OmhA

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  • Sat, Feb 15, 2020 - 8:30pm

    Mark_BC

    Status: Bronze Member

    Joined: Apr 30 2010

    Posts: 386

    2+

    Mark_BC said:

    I got a small backpacking type solar charger from harbor freight that charges all my small electronics great. I took it on a 2 week trip in the wilderness last summer. I'm thinking I should get another.

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  • Sat, Feb 15, 2020 - 8:37pm

    davefairtex

    Status: Member

    Joined: Sep 03 2008

    Posts: 2088

    5+

    genetics are not destiny

    Curious-

    Well, for me, genetics are not destiny.  Genes require activation - they don't just go off and activate themselves.  Signals from outside the cells (chemical, and energetic) cause genes to activate [c.f. "epigenetics"].  My intent is to do my best to make these signals as positive as possible given the circumstances.

    There are lots of tricks to remaining happy.  Lots of tricks.  I've been through fire before.  That will help.

    I remember reading one line in the "staying healthy" guideline from my HMO, Kaiser Permanente.  "It helps to believe in the efficacy of your cure."  Did they really say that?  Yes.  Kaiser was all in favor of the placebo effect.

    I have a certain amount of free will.  I plan to use every bit of it to set things up as favorably as possible.

    Let's call my strategy "maximizing my genetic potential."  You may be content with leaving things to fate, chance, or destiny, but that's just not my way.  I want to load the dice, mark the cards, and fix the game, as best I can.  Oh, sure, it still might not work.  But I will have done my best, and really - that's all anyone can do, yes?

     

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  • Sat, Feb 15, 2020 - 8:49pm

    wyrldtraveler

    wyrldtraveler

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    Joined: Feb 04 2020

    Posts: 65

    Kaiser and HMOs in general

    I've seen very sick people fighting transportation to the hospital because they believed in "Thinking positively".

    Sorry, your positive attitude and optimistic thinking ain't doing nothing to help your multiple fractures....

    HMOs are often part of the insurance game.  They get paid even if you don't show up.

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  • Sat, Feb 15, 2020 - 8:49pm

    kunga

    kunga

    Status: Bronze Member

    Joined: Feb 26 2017

    Posts: 342

    1+

    Old school remedies

    Gus, I am totally with you on using homeopathic remedies.  But most folks should see a qualified homeopathic practitioner.  You can learn this wonderful healing art, but it takes study.

    Be very careful with aspirin or any product containing salicylic acid for flu like symptoms.  Can cause Reyes Syndrome.  This killed a lot of patients in the 1918 flu.

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  • Sat, Feb 15, 2020 - 9:19pm

    ao

    ao

    Status: Platinum Member

    Joined: Feb 04 2009

    Posts: 1243

    6+

    breaking news

    Jeffrey Epstein did not kill himself.  He was killed by the Corona Virus.

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  • Sat, Feb 15, 2020 - 9:25pm

    mntnhousepermi

    mntnhousepermi

    Status: Bronze Member

    Joined: Feb 19 2016

    Posts: 308

    1+

    no connection with adults though

    It is only children and teens who shouldnt take asprin when having the flu or chicken pox because of a link with reyes syndrom

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  • Sat, Feb 15, 2020 - 9:32pm

    davefairtex

    Status: Member

    Joined: Sep 03 2008

    Posts: 2088

    7+

    not multiple fractures discussion

    wrldtraveler-

    I’ve seen very sick people fighting transportation to the hospital because they believed in “Thinking positively”.

    Sorry, your positive attitude and optimistic thinking ain’t doing nothing to help your multiple fractures….

    HMOs are often part of the insurance game.  They get paid even if you don’t show up.

    As we used to say in grade school: "well, duh."

    However, the issue in front of us today isn't multiple fractures, so your observation, while accurate, is irrelevant to this discussion.

    Our resident ED doctor, sand_puppy, has told us that the ED will be absolutely overwhelmed during a pandemic, and it is the very last place we should go.  In such a situation, we should do our absolute best to handle things on our own.  [Additionally, if we aren't infected, we risk getting infected while waiting endlessly for care.]  I'm guessing you probably didn't see his post, but it was in that context - a pandemic, with an overwhelmed ED, doing my best to handle things on my own - that I made my comments.

    Hope that helps.

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  • Sat, Feb 15, 2020 - 9:49pm

    ao

    ao

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    Posts: 1243

    3+

    you are right on the mark

    "Genetic are not destiny".  I like that phrase.  As correct as it is, it unfortunately goes counter to popular belief and as such, is not very widely embraced.  I always tried to educate people about the concept of "substrate determines expression" and the concept of "genetic nutritioneering" but often it was an uphill battle.  The problem is Dave they need your attitude, which I find is not all that common among the masses.  The people who derive some sort of perverse pleasure from suffering and/or from wallowing in their victimhood typically will keep on doing what they always did before which is obviously a guaranteed pathway to failure, or they will try to make some changes but of such a minuscule or inconsequential and compromised nature that these pitiful efforts also virtually guarantee failure.  Especially problematic for themselves (and others) are the ones who are "black holes of emotional need".  Whether that need is about getting attention or wanting someone to feel sorry for them or wanting someone to help them (in the total absence of them doing anything at all to help themselves), that need seems to be insatiable and whatever is done for them is never enough.  They never get better, at least as long as they stick with that type of attitude and mindset.   There's a large (and growing) percentage of people who just don't want to take personal responsibility for their actions and what befalls them (or doesn't, as the case may be).

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  • Sat, Feb 15, 2020 - 9:50pm

    Mr Curious

    Mr Curious

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    Posts: 78

    2+

    Happiness

    Dave, I wish you the best. we're all in this together. Along those lines, many times I've felt a cold or some illness coming on and I go sleep for 10 hours straight if I can. This helps immensely. Another thing that I believe has helped me fend off colds  is the sauna. I've heard that it may boost leukocyte production by simulating a fever.

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  • Sat, Feb 15, 2020 - 10:11pm

    Sparky1

    Sparky1

    Status: Bronze Member

    Joined: Jul 21 2016

    Posts: 736

    4+

    Very direct, informative FFS video re: OTC meds, equipment for home care during Covid-2019 pandemic

    Note:  I'm placing this video here instead of behind the paywall article "What We're doing to Prepare" as more viewers will be able to access it.

    Brad Harris of Full Spectrum Survival (FSS) mentions in this video that it is illegal in China to buy some of these meds (e.g., Ibuprofen), or that they are simply unavailable due to supply shortages. This forces people to go to fever centers or hospitals, or go without meds to treat Covid-2019 symptoms. In this video, he reviews 20 OTC meds and equipment currently available in the US that may be in short supply or unavailable if/when the virus spreads such that the authorities place cities, regions or states under quarantine.

    CDC WARNING: BUY THESE 20 HEALTHCARE ITEMS BEFORE THEY ARE GONE AND WHY

    https://youtu.be/nN1dpEgmmYM

    Background:  Brad Harris is not a medical professional, but a citizen researcher with a computer/software tech background which he's leveraged to write programs/algos that track geopolitical, environmental, health/medical and other events and content across the internet and through other sources. His videos are apolitical and focus on preparedness and building resilience through practical, affordable, actionable steps for the common person. Some of his video titles might be considered a bit alarmist by some people, but his content is based on cited research and recommendations from recognized resources.

    Disclosure:  I have no personal or financial interests in FFS or its personnel.

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  • Sat, Feb 15, 2020 - 10:14pm

    ao

    ao

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    Joined: Feb 04 2009

    Posts: 1243

    5+

    let's look at fractures

    Let's say you fracture your tibia and it's a non-displaced fracture.  Conventional medical wisdom says put a cast on it for 6-8 weeks and be non-weightbearing.  So when you get your cast off, you'll have atrophy, joint stiffness, and possibly other problems at the level of involvement as well as farther up the kinetic chain from disuse and misuse.  If you're very worried about the outcome, the resulting neurophysiologically induced biochemical changes often result in a self-fulfilling prophecy of delayed healing and the development of secondary complications.  If your nutrition is poor, bone healing is even slower.  If you're a smoker, it's even slower.  In short, you're fuxored.

    Now let's look at another individual.  They have the same fracture.  But their nutrition is good and they're not a smoker.  And because of their positive belief system, they up their nutrition game even more with nutrients including Vitamin D3, Vitamin K2, folate, strontium, silicon, boron, magnesium,  calcium, etc.  They also use herbs like boneset and homeopathic remedies like symphytum.  And very importantly, they don't use a cast and don't stay completely non-weight-bearing.  In fact, they use a progressive axial sinusoidal loading program to just barely pain tolerance and they repeat this program again and again in multiple sets and reps prescribed by their more enlightened health care practitioner.  They may use an herbal wrap but no hard cast.  Acupuncture may even come into play to direct more life energy to the area.  They do this day after day with the introduction of very slow motion, Tai Chi type, multi-angular weight shifting exercises to tolerance and then gait to tolerance.  And their positive mindset keeps them motivated and disciplined to be consistent in their program and induces a neurophysiological biochemical state in the body maximally conducive to healing and minimally conducive to problems ranging from bone infections to reflex sympathetic dystrophy.  And guess what, when you do an X-ray, you'll find that individual is healing in half the time or less.  So yes, mindset will come into play even with something as tangible as a fracture.

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  • Sat, Feb 15, 2020 - 10:17pm

    Mark_BC

    Status: Bronze Member

    Joined: Apr 30 2010

    Posts: 386

    Mark_BC said:

    If the People's Bank of China didn't artificially suppress the value of the Chinese currency and if the Fed didn't artificially inflate the value of the dollar, corporations wouldn't have an incentive to sole source their manufacturing in China.

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  • Sat, Feb 15, 2020 - 10:41pm

    Mr Curious

    Mr Curious

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    Joined: Feb 03 2020

    Posts: 78

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    outsourcing

    Hi Mark, corporations moved manufacturing to China to enjoy the cheap labor and poor environmental protections. Since the cost of bunker fuel driven transport was negligible, this wage arbitrage worked well for them. Those days are numbered in my opinion.

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  • Sat, Feb 15, 2020 - 11:29pm

    Mark_BC

    Status: Bronze Member

    Joined: Apr 30 2010

    Posts: 386

    Mark_BC said:

    Their currency should have risen as a result which was prevented from happening.

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  • Sun, Feb 16, 2020 - 2:06am

    Sparky1

    Sparky1

    Status: Bronze Member

    Joined: Jul 21 2016

    Posts: 736

    3+

    FSS: Improvised PPE and decontamintion

    Full Spectrum Survival video with practical steps and improvised inexpensive personal protective equipment (PPE) when commercial PPE is not available or affordable.

    QUARANTINE. FOLLOW THIS STEP TO STAY ALIVE DURING AN OUTBREAK.

    https://youtu.be/oeH6r_SHloc

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  • Sun, Feb 16, 2020 - 2:44am

    TreePlanter

    TreePlanter

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    Posts: 5

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    Smoker/non-smoker from PP youtube video

    Here a comment on the video from 15 feb where there was a table with smokers/ex-smokers/current smokers.

    I would like to suggest what the data means:

    Of the non-smokers: 85% non-severe, 15% severe

    of the ex-smokers: 50% non-severe, 50% severe.

    of the current smokers: 70% non-severe, 30% severe.

    I am glad I don't smoke.

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  • Sun, Feb 16, 2020 - 3:13am

    saxplayer00o1

    Status: Silver Member

    Joined: Jul 30 2009

    Posts: 3134

    2+

    ‘Black swan’ coronavirus casts its shadow over the global economy

    ‘Black swan’ coronavirus casts its shadow over the global economy

    Factory shutdowns

    Data company Dun & Bradstreet say an estimated 5 million companies have Chinese suppliers – from Apple, whose supplier Foxconn postponed the reopening of its Shenzhen factory, to food companies Kraft Heinz and PepsiCo, which have closed Chinese factories.

    The outbreak could barely have come at a worse time for struggling carmakers. Wuhan is a major centre of automotive manufacturing. France’s Renault and Peugeot, Germany’s Volkswagen and BMW, as well as Jaguar Land Rover, Britain’s largest carmaker, have still not reopened factories run with Chinese partners. Honda yesterday postponed the reopening of its Wuhan plant for another week, while Hyundai has shut its huge factory in Ulsan, South Korea, for lack of parts.

    https://www.theguardian.com/business/2020/feb/15/coronavirus-black-swan-shadow-global-economy

    ===========================
    Forget Sars, the new coronavirus threatens a meltdown in China’s economy
    In a survey of 995 SMEs by academics from Tsinghua and Peking universities, 85 per cent said they would be unable to survive for more than three months under the current conditions. If the disruption goes on long enough, it could trigger a wave of bankruptcy among SMEs, which contribute more than 60 per cent of China’s GDP, 70 per cent of its patents and account for 80 per cent of jobs nationwide.

    https://www.scmp.com/week-asia/opinion/article/3050629/forget-sars-new-coronavirus-threatens-meltdown-chinas-economy

    ============================
    China Vows More Fiscal Support as Virus Roils a Slowing Economy
    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-02-16/china-vows-more-fiscal-support-as-virus-roils-a-slowing-economy

    ===========================

    Singapore plans massive budget stimulus to counter virus threat
    https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2020/02/16/business/singapore-budget-stimulus-coronavirus-covid19/#.XkkgqI7YrnE
    ======================
    Coronavirus: Hong Kong may see biggest ever budget deficit next financial year amid ‘tsunami-scale blow’ caused by public health crisis, finance chief warns
    https://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/hong-kong-economy/article/3050860/coronavirus-hong-kong-may-see-biggest-ever-budget
    ===================

    Cost of China's anti-virus fight rises with workers idle
    https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2020/02/16/business/china-coronavirus-covid19-fight-cost-workers/#.Xkkhbo7YrnE
    =====================

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  • Sun, Feb 16, 2020 - 4:37am

    Matties

    Matties

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    Joined: Jan 30 2020

    Posts: 160

    1000 genomes project

    1000 Genomes Project

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  • Sun, Feb 16, 2020 - 5:32am

    Matties

    Matties

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    Posts: 160

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    Chris : Meme will burn itself out in summer has no evidence in Singapore current data

    This meme is based on solid SARS research.

    Hong Kong SARS Graph daily SARS cases - daily mean temperature

    But airconditioning could be interfering.

    In countries such as Singapore and Hong Kong where there is a intensive use of air-conditioning, transmission largely occurred in well-air-conditioned environments such as hospitals or hotels. Further, a separate study has shown that during the epidemic, the risk of increased daily incidence of SARS was 18.18-fold higher in days with a lower air temperature than in days with a higher temperature in Hong Kong [24] and
    other regions [15–17]. Taken together, these observations may explain why some Asian countries in tropical area (with high temperature at high relative humidity) such as Malaysia, Indonesia, and Thailand did not have nosocomial outbreaks of SARS (Tables 1 and 2(a)–2(c)). It may also explain why Singapore, which is also in tropical area (Table 2(d)), had most of its SARS outbreaks in hospitals (air-conditioned environment). Interestingly, during the outbreak of SARS in Guangzhou, clinicians kept the windows of patient rooms open and well ventilated and these may well have reduced
    virus survival and this reduced nosocomial transmission.

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  • Sun, Feb 16, 2020 - 5:33am

    mandrake99

    mandrake99

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    Joined: Aug 21 2008

    Posts: 2

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    On the smoking data that Chris presented

    In the latest video that Chris presented he shows some smoking data that appears to show that smoking has little effect on the severity of the disease.

    If you look at the data 85% of patients claim to be non smokers.

    However, there is ample evidence that 60% of Chinese males smoke and 2-3% of Chinese women smoke. ( Various sources easily obtainable online).

    So either smoking is protective or the subjects are lying about their smoking.

    Why lie? Who knows but maybe they thought they would get better treatment if they were non smokers???

    So I think we can ignore that study and be open to the possibility that smoking is a significant risk factor for contracting the disease. At this stage, we do not know.

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  • Sun, Feb 16, 2020 - 6:32am

    MariaDWhite

    MariaDWhite

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    Joined: Feb 10 2020

    Posts: 8

    1+

    Update on Brighton UK

    The whole Brighton cluster of cases, including the ones in France, have recovered after all of them having only mild symptoms:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-51514628

    No new cases have been reported in Brighton, though it will take at least a couple of weeks to be completely sure that the virus hasn't spread further.

    This said, there are complaints about the handling of contact tracing and advice. It looks like different NHS services have been given different advice:

    https://www.theargus.co.uk/news/18237402.coronavirus-clinician-slams-shambolic-handling-outbreak-brighton/

    And since some of the people with the virus were healthcare workers that were in contact with sick people, I'd find it surprising if none of those patients were found to have caught the virus. Surely sick people would be more vulnerable. It would be strong evidence in favour of the idea that this virus has a strong preference for Asian Han ethnicity - which is head-scratching, to say the least.

     

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  • Sun, Feb 16, 2020 - 7:38am

    Desogames

    Desogames

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    Joined: Feb 03 2020

    Posts: 210

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    Just a reminder

    For everybody who lives in the city in apartment buildings to put some plastic or other cover over whatever air ducts / ventilation system you already have. Go with opening a window from now on if you need ventilation.

    I was reminded by this because i did so recently myself. The ventilation pumps are broken here (or turned off i don't know) so it's just idle air in those shafts. And now that it's windy outside, every time i hear a gust of wind, i can also hear the plastic expanding, then contracting again when the gust's past.

    That's the shit that'll get you in the city, no matter how careful you are about everything else. And considering i've got 2 of those openings, 1 in the bathroom but also one in the living room hidden behind the boiler (the one i keep hearing), it's very easy to forget these exist.

    Close them now, because by the time they find a virus case in your building it'll be too late.

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  • Sun, Feb 16, 2020 - 7:40am

    Andy_S

    Andy_S

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    Joined: Jan 27 2020

    Posts: 61

    Yes -ASIAN MALES Are More At-Risk - '1000 Genomes Project' Statistics

     

    According to the "1000 Genomes Project", which has released data to the public on this, we see that the ACE-2 cells do seem to make East Asian males more vulnerable. Here is the chart below-

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  • Sun, Feb 16, 2020 - 7:51am

    Myrto Ashe

    Myrto Ashe

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    Joined: Jan 25 2010

    Posts: 92

    Smoking possible connection to cytokine storm

    I agree with the posters who point out that the data show increased likelihood of being a severe case if you are a current smoker.

    I am reading Stephen Buhner‘s Herbal Antivirals book, and he mentioned that smoking has counterintuitively been linked to a lower chance of a cytokine storm. There are also some herbs that can help here, but no medications have been found to have this effect.

    If so, that may explain why prior smokers have the greatest risk of being severe cases (they might have some degree of damage but no benefit from fresh reduction of cytokine-storm-related cytokines). However, their numbers are small in that sample which introduces statistical uncertainty.

    I also agree that it’s strange that so many  symptomatic patients are non-smokers (I also thought rates of smoking in China were higher than is reflected by the people in that study). They might have been lying, but it’s not so easy to hide that you’re a smoker because your clothes smell like smoke.

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  • Sun, Feb 16, 2020 - 7:54am

    CrLaan

    CrLaan

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    CrLaan said:

    https://economics.rabobank.com/publications/2020/february/coronavirus-outbreak-of-uncertainty/

    RABO : from bad to unthinkable

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  • Sun, Feb 16, 2020 - 8:25am

    BillL

    BillL

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    Joined: Jan 15 2020

    Posts: 115

    4+

    Lol!!!...

    I find myself doing a bit of that these days.

    We always had a root cellar at Grandma's.  Everything you can imagine stored in there.  Bulb's, potatoes, carrots, cabbage, etc.  Dirt floors, under the house, kind of high tech for something built a century ago.

    So I built one for our use.  North side of house,  multi-vented, shelving, wide variety of racks, semi-underground, compartmentalized to manage temp/humidity, earthen floor as that is the key.

    It to will be around for centuries.  Just updated construction based on a model built around 1900.

     

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  • Sun, Feb 16, 2020 - 8:29am

    Mark_BC

    Status: Bronze Member

    Joined: Apr 30 2010

    Posts: 386

    3+

    Mark_BC said:

    Since it can't be contained I suspect governments will just end the futile quarantine restrictions. It is the quarantine that is destroying China's economy, not the deaths which are insignificant in the grand scheme of things.

    1-2% death rate, while terrible for those that die, isn't going to end the world and it seems non asians are less susceptible. At this point I'd say the quarantine hysteria has done more damage and disruption than the actual virus has.

    Once factories start to reopen this will provide good news to the markets. Money printing will have done its job and it will be back to BAU, for now, as the elites clearly dont want the crash to happen yet. The world will just lose maybe 1% of its population which economically is much less impact than shutting everything down for quarantine, which wouldn't be effective anyways.

    All that pent up money from the stimulus will flood the markets with the good news and AAPL will soon be back on its track to $400, $500 and beyond. I predict new highs early next week.

    But of course I could be wrong.

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  • Sun, Feb 16, 2020 - 8:31am

    Quercus bicolor

    Status: Silver Member

    Joined: Mar 19 2008

    Posts: 350

    Singapore doubling time (from Saturady's youtube video)

    Let's try this:

    • January 5 - 4 cases.
    • February 14: ~64 cases (4 doublings)

    20 days/ 4 doublings = 5 days/doubling.

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  • Sun, Feb 16, 2020 - 8:39am

    greendoc

    greendoc

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    Posts: 166

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    That ACE2 chart is meaningless!

    The ACE2 1000 Genome chart, I can only find on Pinterest with no reference. Data making up the chart appears to be from the 1000 Genome database, that is real thing (and highly useful database I use almost daily).  I tried searching Google Scholar with the 6 rsid#s numbers mentioned and did not get a single hit for all six appearing together in a paper.  That is highly unusual. Normally google scholar returns hundreds to tens of thousands of papers in a keyword search with rsid#s.   This search was nada, zilch, zero. These rsid#s indeed represent mutations in the ACE2 gene (that codes for receptor for the nCoV spike protein). These mutations may represent some alteration in how ACE2 is expressed, but no one has systematically studied them as to how they effect the functionality and expression of ACE2 across all populations.  This kind of research is what I spend every working day with: and this chart is meaningless in presenting any risk as based on ethnicity and a percentage of people who possess 6 mutations in a gene…….

    …..Because:  it is very clear from auick review of the literature that there does not exist even a single putative functional variant in ACE2 at this time.   Basically that means scientists don’t understand how mutations in this gene effect its activity and/or expressions: either through altered mRNA, deletion of a transcription or repression site, changes to enzyme stability, changes to its catalytic site or Km, etc.  In short, mutations effect enzymes in many different ways.  The vast majority of mutations to do not effect enzymes at all.  At this stage of research, it is more about genome wide association studies  (bias eye view of all chromosomes to find areas of interest) to fine mapping of a gene locus (zooming in a gene to look at it alone, not the whole human genome) to start finding what are called “tag” single nucleotide polymorphisms or SNPs, that tag/or are connected to the true underlying functional variant.  Even then, there can be more than one functional variant, and understanding how these in combination effect an enzyme is studied through haplotype analysis.  The science for this and ACE2 is in its infancy.  That Pinterest chart is meaningless in my opinion, as a population frequency chart compliled by adding up alleles from 6 mutations gives you no idea how they are effecting the activity (gain or loss or no change) to an enzyme.

    I understand there would be interest in ACE2 mutations given its connection to SARS.  Chinese researchers investigated that already after the SARS outbreak and concluded: ACE2 gene polymorphisms do not affect outcome of severe acute respiratory syndrome.https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15331509

    We therefore conclude that although ACE2 serves functionally as the receptor for entry of the SARS coronavirus into human host cells, the evidence provided by this study does not support an association between its common genetic variants and SARS susceptibility or outcome. Despite its X-chromosome location, poor outcomes in male SARS patients do not appear to be related to genetic variants of ACE2.

    Chinese researchers did look at other mutations in other genes that might effect susceptibility/severity of SARS and found both negative and positive associations (SNPs that increased risk or seem to offer to offer protection) with SNPs in

    Interferon gamma: https://bmcinfectdis.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1471-2334-6-82

    Human-leukocyte antigen classes   https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21958371

    Il-18 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16652313

    IL-1A  PMID : 21958371

    RelB (reticuloendotheliosis viral oncogene homolog B) PMID : 21958371

    FGL2 (fibrinogen-like protein 2) PMID : 21958371

    That is all the research I could find on SARS and genetic mutations, but not an exhaustive search.

    It is too early to say if these same associations will hold true for Covid 19.  It only shares 80% of genetic similarity with SARS. That 20% of difference could turn out too be hugely important it how it interacts with our immune system.  Already doctors in China have made the observation that COvid provokes a different cytokine storm than SARS. Meaning, the cascade of inflammatory chemokine, interleukins, etc is made up of different molecules.  For example: “Interleukin 17 blockade might benefit those patients who have a 2019-nCoV infection and increased plasma concentration of interleukin 17.  Source: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/32035018

    Asians do have a increased incidence (30ish %) well known functional SNP in the IL-gene that dramatically unregulated IL-17 as compared to Caucasians (12ish%) so this would be an obvious angle to investigate, IMO.

    There has been just published a non peer reviewed paper (Profiling the Immune Vulnerability Landscape of the 2019 Novel Coronavirus) and authors concluded Asians may be at increased risk due to T and B cell epitope differences.  https://www.preprints.org/manuscript/202002.0167/v1

    Only time and more research will tell if there are some genetic mutations that make more people/ethnicities that help or harm in regards to Covid 19.

     

    Claire

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  • Sun, Feb 16, 2020 - 8:41am

    Quercus bicolor

    Status: Silver Member

    Joined: Mar 19 2008

    Posts: 350

    Chinese percentage of severe cases) (from Saturady's youtube video)

    By age:

    • 0-14: 1 severe case out of 9 in that age bracket (11%)
    • 15-49: 67/557: 12%
    • 50-64: 51/292: 17.5%
    • 65+: 73/459: 16% (< 50-64 group despite large sample- raises question).

    50+ is at about 50% greater risk of hospitalization compared to under 50.

    By smoking history:

    • nonsmoker: 134/927: 14.5%
    • ex-smoker: 9/21: 43% (small sample)
    • smoker: 29/137: 21%

    So smoking increases your risk of being severe by ~50% compared to nonsmokers - not huge, but significant.

    It's interesting that the severe case rates are higher in Wuhan - perhaps because these patients were infected earlier or maybe because the initial infection involves a larger load of virus?  Any data on when each group was infected?

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  • Sun, Feb 16, 2020 - 9:03am

    Narr

    Narr

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    Joined: Mar 29 2012

    Posts: 5

    More on the ACE2-Related Asian COVID-19 Susceptibility Hypothesis

    I would be interested in an interview with Dr. Weiler https://jameslyonsweiler.com/2020/02/16/more-on-the-ace2-related-asian-covid-19-susceptibility-hypothesis/

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  • Sun, Feb 16, 2020 - 9:55am

    Mr Curious

    Mr Curious

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    Joined: Feb 03 2020

    Posts: 78

    interview with jameslyonsweiler

    Yeah, Chris would you be willing to interview this guy?

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  • Sun, Feb 16, 2020 - 10:09am

    nordicjack

    nordicjack

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    Joined: Feb 03 2020

    Posts: 590

    3+

    Asian Susceptibility

    I think we need to put this one to rest.   There are Caucasians with this.  I do not see how, we should concerns ourselves with this - because even if a modest difference,  its not going to stop Caucasians from getting sick or dying.   The smoking thing has also been disproved.   lets stop saying this only kills old people or sick people, or it only attacks on race - blah blah..   This is crazy..  of course people with health issues can be more vulnerable,  but actually the older population did better with the H1N1.   we did not see a great difference in deaths among age groups except children seem to do slightly better.  but for adults its all the same.  and what they call an underlying health condition is not really anything.. if you have osteoporisis it wont effect this, if you have diabetes sure.. it affects the immunity.   But id guess it have to be type 1.    asthma or allergies shouldnt kill you as the flu doesnt make you allergic.. Id guess you would have to have one heck of issue with that to affect your lungs - more likely the steroidal inhalers compromised immunity.   heart disease can be an issue , but it would have to be a lot more than common hypertension..  My grandmother had one of those genetic super hypertensions like 300 over 160 type if untreated.  She was never sick a day in her life.  she lived till 92 and never got an infection or dyed of infection subsequent to her burned out valves.   There are direct causes of health issues that cause problems here but , id say the vast majority do not cause problems with this.  someone is just wanting to feel good why they should not get it , or if they do , they are not the one who can die.

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  • Sun, Feb 16, 2020 - 10:20am

    Matties

    Matties

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    Posts: 160

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    Watch your bat... Eh cat.

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  • Sun, Feb 16, 2020 - 10:37am

    Nairobi

    Nairobi

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    Posts: 289

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    Much ado about ACE 2 but we can't change it.

    All this talk about ACE 2 receptors just makes my head swim. Once everyone can agree on if they matter or not is there anything we can even do about it?

    If someone here wrote, Dear Mr Nairobi, just drink more milk or take vitamin K and your ACE 2 will become resistant to the Wuhan Virus, then I could be much more focused on the subject.

    I did quit smoking after Chris's second to last video though only to learn today that ex-smokers are actually in the highest risk category. LOL!!

    Ha ha, does that not just figure? This Covid19 is going to kill me for sure unless I can tune up my ACE receptors fast.

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  • Sun, Feb 16, 2020 - 11:04am

    George Karpouzis

    Status: Silver Member

    Joined: Feb 17 2009

    Posts: 189

    6+

    My conversations with MDs

    Spoke with 2 doctors that I know

    my cousin spoke with a biologist from U of Montana

    heres the results

    2 MDs, one is a oncologist the other ENT

    Both said it’s nothing to worry about. Don’t go to China. It’s just the flu.

    The biologist from U of Montana said “the flu has Killed more people”

     

    have people completely lost the ability to think for themselves? There’s a thing called a DENOMINATOR

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  • Sun, Feb 16, 2020 - 11:28am

    SagerXX

    Status: Gold Member

    Joined: Feb 11 2009

    Posts: 451

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    I concur, MarkBC

    Especially in countries where (for whatever reason) the virus is less deadly (ie [so far] non-Asian countries), the response will be no quarantine, take the (acceptable?) losses and move on.  I'm cynical enough to believe that somewhere in the Deep State there are meetings going on where an actuary is touting the whole idea of letting 2-3% of the elderly population catch COVID-19 and perish -- "It'll save us $X billion dollars in entitlements [sic] this year alone, and $17X over the next decade!  Think how many cruise missiles that'll buy!"

    Even if people voluntarily hunker down out of fear, the gov won't let the economy slow.  Stimulus here, stimulus there (heck, it's an election year, maybe UBI [special pandemic "limited-edition"] gets a test run for a few months?), keep things propped up.  What's that old expression from Saudi about the camel's nose and the tent?

    As we saw from WHO's early response, damn the human cost, the ECONOMY's the thing to protect.

    If real helicopter money comes, better have some shiny metal tucked away.  Or your cryptocurrency of choice.  Or both...

    VIVA anyway! -- Sager

     

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  • Sun, Feb 16, 2020 - 11:33am

    Andy_S

    Andy_S

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    Joined: Jan 27 2020

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    The "ECONOMY" is YOU And ME

     

    If it goes - we all go with it. 

    Millions die if the Economy goes. MILLIONS.

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  • Sun, Feb 16, 2020 - 11:36am

    dtrammel

    Status: Silver Member

    Joined: May 03 2011

    Posts: 800

    1+

    Good For A LOL - How To Sanitize Your Cruise Ship Cabin

    https://www.usatoday.com/picture-gallery/travel/cruises/2020/02/06/coronavirus-concerns-how-sanitize-your-cruise-ship-cabin/4669279002/

    Ok that works until the first housekeeping person enters the room, or you exit and go out onto the rest of the ship.

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  • Sun, Feb 16, 2020 - 11:58am

    pinecarr

    Status: Gold Member

    Joined: Apr 13 2008

    Posts: 1141

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    Question about echinacea

    Hi Sparky1, thanks for the link to the video about "20 items to get" while you still can.  There were a couple of good reminders in there (I still need a humidifier!)

    In reading through the video's comments, there was one in particular that caught my attention: "...echinacea, when taken everyday will reek havoc on the liver".  (They also said elderberry at first, but someone else discounted that).

    I know I -and maybe others here?- have started drinking echinacea tea once or twice a day to boost my immune system.  But if drinking it for too long can be harmful, that's certainly something to be aware of.

    I did a quick search, and saw some mentions linking echinacea and liver problems.  Here's one thing I found on it :

    Using echinacea for longer than 8 weeks at a time might damage your liver or suppress your immune system. Herbalists recommend not to take echinacea if you are taking medicines known to affect your liver. ...

    Then the same article seems to somewhat contradict itself, saying:

    Some herbalists say you shouldn’t take echinacea for longer than 8 weeks. This is due to possible side effects. But a study in Cardiff in 2012 seemed to show that it is safe to take for up to 4 months.

    However, most articles on echinacea don't mention this at all.  So there seems to be some lack of clarity on the issue.  I'm hoping some of our folks here who are knowledgeable in herbal medicine can help weigh in on this?

     

     

     

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  • Sun, Feb 16, 2020 - 12:06pm

    ao

    ao

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    Posts: 1243

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    smokers can't hide

    Not only do your clothes smell but your breath and skin smell as well.  And the smell doesn't go away quickly once you stop smoking.  I remember a patient who reported in her medical history that she was a non-smoker.  Yet each time I worked with her, I smelled the smell of a smoker.  Since smoking was relevant to her problem, I asked her directly if she was a smoker.  She replied that she was not.  I then asked her if she lived or worked with smokers and she also denied that.  Since I kept smelling the smell, I asked her about it on several subsequent occasions to the point where I could tell she was beginning to get annoyed.  Finally though, she admitted that she had been a smoker in the past but stopped a few years previously.  Her body was still out-gassing the smell years later.  If you're a smoker of any significance, you can't hide it from someone with an acute sense of smell.  And if you smoked for any significant length of time, especially if you are a woman (with a normally higher pitched voice than a male), your voice will most likely tell the tale as well.

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  • Sun, Feb 16, 2020 - 12:16pm

    wyrldtraveler

    wyrldtraveler

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    Posts: 65

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    Echinacea

    What I have read is that Echinacea, 3x/day for 3 days is most effective.  After that, a 'cooling off period' of at least 3 days as the body begins to down-regulate the immune response after that.

    That's hearsay; I have no studies.  Logical, however.

    The Cancer Research webpage link has the standard language we-officially-don't-know-one-way-or-another (implying that you should listen to your allopathic physician and take their poison pills because-they-said-so and not because they are actually better for you than herbal approaches) like all other charities accepting government funding.  Too much drinking water is bad for your kidneys, too.

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  • Sun, Feb 16, 2020 - 12:51pm

    Zana Hart

    Zana Hart

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    Joined: Dec 23 2011

    Posts: 32

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    Peter M. Sandman risk commnunication website

    Just discovered this thoughtful website. Here's a link to his current stuff pertinent to our discussions:
    http://psandman.com/index-infec.htm?__s=zx8abnfaxcgegsmbdukr#corona

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  • Sun, Feb 16, 2020 - 1:00pm

    Tom Sammy

    Tom Sammy

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    Posts: 135

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    Opinion on why Coronavirus Outbreak in China is worse than reported

    Nice summary here:

    https://www.foxnews.com/opinion/lew-olowski-coronavirus-worse-than-reported-heres-how-china-is-making-the-situation-worse

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  • Sun, Feb 16, 2020 - 1:02pm

    agitating prop

    agitating prop

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    Joined: May 28 2009

    Posts: 355

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    Pulitzer Prize Winning Journalist--The Coming Plague

    Laurie Garrett---There are several youtube videos and text interivews online featuring Ms. Garrett. They are well worth watching and reading. The youtube video doesn't get into bio-engineering until the last part of the video. She highlights the benefits of human directed evolution and then discusses the downside....lab leaks, bio-terrorism, etc...

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  • Sun, Feb 16, 2020 - 1:17pm

    Tom Sammy

    Tom Sammy

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    Joined: Jan 30 2020

    Posts: 135

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    China funeral home situation and coverup of mass infection at Banquet

    Funeral homes looking for help:

    https://www.naturalnews.com/2020-02-16-chinese-funeral-homes-offering-workers-143-an-hour-stack-dead-bodies.html

    Coverup of group infections at banquet gathering

    https://www.theepochtimes.com/wuhan-neighborhood-infected-with-coronavirus-after-families-attend-banquet_3238635.html

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  • Sun, Feb 16, 2020 - 2:23pm

    Copper’s Hu-mom

    Copper’s Hu-mom

    Status: Member

    Joined: Feb 01 2020

    Posts: 42

    How to sanitize your cabin

    No thanks! I don’t think paying for the privilege of having to do that is worth it at all.  My house, yes. But no cabins!

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  • Sun, Feb 16, 2020 - 2:29pm

    Mr Curious

    Mr Curious

    Status: Member

    Joined: Feb 03 2020

    Posts: 78

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    let it burn

    Speaking of actuaries, have you guys read Gail Tverberg's take on the virus over there on our Finite world? Basically, she says let it burn, clean out the deadwood, the elderly, the weak. This is nature's way of cleaning house. Don't fight it, don't even worry that much about masks, the response to the outbreak could cause more problems that the actual virus. Ouch!

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  • Sun, Feb 16, 2020 - 2:32pm

    agitating prop

    agitating prop

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    Joined: May 28 2009

    Posts: 355

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    agitating prop said:

    Epoch Times is the propaganda vehicle for Falun Gong.. They managed to convince many people that the Chinese round up Falun Gong and harvest their organs vivisection style. Whether you love or hate China, surely you want information that isn't bogus. It was the harvesting of organs before the prisoner was dead that made me suspicous, some years ago. I mean, in terms of sheer difficulty, you'd want to grab organs out of somebody that wasn't screaming and writhing around...correct?

    From Global Research:

    But just as is the case with Tibet, there is more to the Falun Gong case than simple persecution. Outside political forces and corporate interests can be found pushing Falun Gong into increasingly political activities, including well-funded, well-organized, and ubiquitous worldwide protests against the Chinese Communist Party.

    Among the foreign (predominantly Western) Friends of Falun Gong, we find the likes of Mark Palmer of Freedom House. Freedom House is a quasi-intelligence front created by the CIA-connected Open Society Institute of elite George Soros. In addition to Palmer, Freedom House has counted among its top management the former CIA Director James Woolsey, neocons Bernie Aronson and Diana Negroponte, super elite Zbigniew Brzezinski, former Clinton National Security Advisor Anthony Lake, Clinton Commerce Secretary Stuart Eizenstat, and the late Congressman Tom Lantos and his wife.

    Freedom House is backed by the National Endowment for Democracy (NED), which former CIA agent Philip Agee, and many others have amply documented, is a US intelligence apparatus that has been a driving force behind opposition forces (“democracy revolutions”) in many countries.

    Is the CIA behind the China-bashing Olympics protests?

    From the New Republic:

    Albrecht got was a rare look into the strange and secretive world of the newspaper, which was founded by practitioners of the Falun Gong spiritual discipline that originated in China. The Times’ staff members Albrecht met in the Berlin office were all devotees of Falun Gong. Every day at 6 p.m., a bell rang, and everyone in the newsroom stopped what they were doing, sat at their desks, and meditated.

    https://newrepublic.com/article/155076/obscure-newspaper-fueling-far-right-europe

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  • Sun, Feb 16, 2020 - 2:57pm

    Desogames

    Desogames

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    Joined: Feb 03 2020

    Posts: 210

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    China warns no bailouts!

    https://www.zerohedge.com/economics/beijing-crashes-party-chinese-media-warns-austerity-coming-after-finmin-says-proactive

    The language the Chinese are using indicates they will not be printing massive amounts of money as the US markets currently expect them to. Sure, they'll print some, but constrained by decreasing revenues due to the virus and an already $40 trillion big debt mountain, they can't do much.

    There's even mention of "cut unnecessary government expenses." which, considering the government practically is China, you can read as "letting the bad stuff fail because we can't afford not to".

    The Federal Reserve has also already been slowing down the amount they're putting in each daily/overnight repo, with the last 3 repos being extremely oversubscribed. This is all building up to a huge shock and when it happens, there will not be buyers!

    Remember! To sell, you need to have a buyer! otherwise you're left "holding the bag".

    If you're not already.... get out of the stock market ASAP.

    Edit: oh i forgot to add; the market is still likely to go up on monday because bloomberg said "china vows stimulus" and that's all the algos

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  • Sun, Feb 16, 2020 - 3:15pm

    thc0655

    Status: Platinum Member

    Joined: Apr 27 2010

    Posts: 2025

    9+

    Gail Tverberg on responses to Wuhu Flu

    https://ourfiniteworld.com/2020/01/29/it-is-easy-to-overreact-to-the-chinese-coronavirus/#more-44737

    [6] The best approach might just be to let the Chinese coronavirus run its course. Authorities might also discourage stories about how awful the illness is.

    Today, we seem to think that we can fix all problems. Unfortunately, this medical problem doesn’t seem to be fixable in the near-term. We should probably do as governments through the ages have done, which is not very much. We should not publicize the disease as being a whole lot worse than flu viruses in general, for example.

    We should certainly look for inexpensive treatments for the disease. For example, there seems to be an effort to examine the possibility of using existing antiviral drugs as a treatment. It seems like an effort could be made to look into ways of treating the disease at home, perhaps using supplemental oxygen for a period. In time, perhaps a vaccine can be developed.

    Individuals around the world should be encouraged to get themselves in as good health as possible, so that their own immune systems can fight off pathogens of all types, not just this particular virus. Common sense should be used in washing hands and in avoiding being with sick people. I doubt that it makes sense to encourage the use of masks, goggles and other protective devices.

    We, as individuals, cannot live forever on this earth. We also cannot spend an unlimited percentage of GDP on health care: It becomes too high-cost for most citizens. At some point, we need to call a halt to the expectation that we can fix all problems. We live in a world with limited resources. We need to start lowering our expectations, if we don’t want to make our problems worse.

    That ought to be popular.

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  • Sun, Feb 16, 2020 - 3:23pm

    VeganDB12

    VeganDB12

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    Joined: Jul 18 2008

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    3+

    Dead wood?

    Seriously, do you believe that?  I read the article. She thinks the median age of the dying is 72 which is not really consistent with the data I have seen here.  Secondly, perhaps she should consider that China will have a problem if they carelessly allow this thing to go widespread to places like North Korea which possibly might retaliate.

    Slowing the progression of the illness allows us to develop treatments.  There are many older, weak and ill people of value in the world (Warren Buffett is no spring chicken).  She has the underlying assumption that people are interchangeable widgets and that anyone can be replaced at any time.   Anyone who has gone through a downsizing/reorganization may understand that theory doesn't always work.  Yes people can suffer and die from consequences of a catastrophic economic depression.  Still, China wouldn't be doing this unless the alternative was worse for them.   On this I trust their judgment.

    Frankly I am mortified by her cavalier approach to a possible loss of life in the hundreds of millions and my guess is she believes she will be a survivor.  Thank you for highlighting the article. Frightening but good to know how others may see this.

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  • Sun, Feb 16, 2020 - 4:09pm

    David Webb

    David Webb

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    Joined: Feb 07 2020

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    "Japan health minister urges public to avoid crowds" ?

    Quote:

    Japan's health minister on Sunday urged the public to avoid crowds and "non-essential gatherings", including notoriously packed commuter trains, to prevent the new coronavirus from spreading in the country.

    Katsunobu Kato warned the nation was "entering a new phase" in the outbreak of the virus, which has infected nearly 60 people in Japan so far.

    "We want to ask the public to avoid non-urgent, non-essential gatherings. We want elderly and those with pre-existing conditions to avoid crowded places," Kato said after a meeting of a panel of experts.

    https://www.news18.com/news/world/japan-health-minister-urges-public-to-avoid-non-essential-gatherings-stay-away-from-crowds-trains-2503299.html

     

    --although I wonder about the validity of this article. This would be momentous, but it was not mentioned here:

    https://www.straitstimes.com/asia/east-asia/coronavirus-japan-grapples-with-spread-on-land-and-at-sea

     

    I thought this recent interview from Japan, which includes the idea of "entering a new phase," might have been the source. But it does not mention the other key elements.

    https://www3.nhk.or.jp/nhkworld/en/news/videos/20200214191220967/

    Also see https://www3.nhk.or.jp/nhkworld/en/news/backstories/878/

     

     

     

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  • Sun, Feb 16, 2020 - 4:40pm

    Nairobi

    Nairobi

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    Joined: Feb 05 2020

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    The term "deadwood" gives her away.

    Gail Tverberg was not clever enough to disguise her personal agenda and belief system. She is no doubt part of that group who thinks anyone not "producing" is a waste of skin.

    Such thinking brought us leaders like Stalin, Pol Pot and Mao. She might consider that she herself would be seen as worthless by such regimes who are typically threatened by writers ( a useless occupation...just ask President for life, Xi who has devoted so much time to shutting up his own people).

    I am going to guess she despises her own parents or stands in line for a fat inheritance if the virus takes them out.

    Seriously, how many people think of their own Mother and Father as deadwood after they retire?

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  • Sun, Feb 16, 2020 - 4:48pm

    Nairobi

    Nairobi

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    Joined: Feb 05 2020

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    So many Americans infected aboard a cruise ship.

    The rapid spread of coronavirus among Americans on board that cruise ship should finally put an end to the silly meme that Westerners are more immune to this virus than Chinese.

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  • Sun, Feb 16, 2020 - 5:26pm

    Nairobi

    Nairobi

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    Joined: Feb 05 2020

    Posts: 289

    5+

    Bill Gates Africa mortality estimates are optimistic

    This past Friday Bill Gates warned that Africa may see ten million fatalities due to the corona virus. That is likely a very optimistic estimate. The UN Aids data for 2018 shows as many as 26 million Africans are currently infected with HIV. It does not need to be stated but that group is particularly high risk due to having compromised immune systems which may not be able to withstand a virus which nobody has immunity against. But HIV is just the tip of the iceberg. In 2017, WHO estimated Africans suffered more than 200 million cases of malaria. Compound those numbers with water borne illnesses, poor sanitation and other mosquito infections and you will agree Africans present with significant preexisting medical conditions that will likely increase the populations mortality rate above most other regions in the world.

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  • Sun, Feb 16, 2020 - 5:45pm

    Copper’s Hu-mom

    Copper’s Hu-mom

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    That actuary has spoken.

    Her name is Gail Tverberg. And that is what she said.  There are  a few posts here about her comments.

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  • Sun, Feb 16, 2020 - 5:54pm

    Nairobi

    Nairobi

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    2+

    Corona can devastate asset prices but debt endures.

    And finally, with both production and consumption numbers poised to start coming in lower over the next few quarters as commodities prices plummet and the only thing still rising being debt then perhaps we can finally put to rest the notion that we will see a near term future of rising inflation. Asset prices for example do not usually keep inflating as corporate revenues and profits crater and neither do employment numbers tend to keep rising. As we should all know by now, asset prices rise and fall but debt remains. Which brings us to an interesting problem and one the world has certainly seen before as entire nations can face default along with their companies and overdrawn banks. A couple quarters of low or negative growth are going to prove just how deflationary debt repayment really is as consumers and business retrench and try to pay down past obligations. And I probably don't need to add that the hit taken to the economy at the margin from withdrawn investment and consumption lost to debt payments is going to accelerate the decline. But I will say it anyway in case you don't know how the mechanics of massive indebtedness function in an overleveraged economy that stops growing abruptly. And since I did say it then we should also wonder aloud if this Wuhan virus is not merely the pretext for an economic war where the West gets squashed because it's not really productive anymore.

    Wow. Nobody saw that coming.

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  • Sun, Feb 16, 2020 - 6:00pm

    Christina Watkins

    Christina Watkins

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    People really need to pay attention. Worth listening to.

    Words of wisdom from the Professor Boyle. (Biological Warfare Expert)

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8JfKwiolUX8&feature=emb_share&fbclid=IwAR2hu48nDnD43SyzuUspHjbskzhIzwtDj9qbEgtkevox9R-jIqC--s-8qPE

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  • Sun, Feb 16, 2020 - 6:05pm

    davefairtex

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    ... sat at their desks and meditated

    agitating prop-

    Albrecht got was a rare look into the strange and secretive world of the newspaper, which was founded by practitioners of the Falun Gong spiritual discipline that originated in China. The Times’ staff members Albrecht met in the Berlin office were all devotees of Falun Gong. Every day at 6 p.m., a bell rang, and everyone in the newsroom stopped what they were doing, sat at their desks, and meditated.

    Well now.  That's scary indeed.  Meditation.  A sign of the apocalypse.

    I'm not Falun Gong, and I don't have any inclination to join, but surely someone can come up with something more sinister than a daily meditation.  [Full disclosure; I meditate.]

    As for organ harvesting, that's pretty well documented stuff.  Go down that rabbit hole if you care to look.  The CCP has a massive organ transplant "tourist" business, and no discernable voluntary organ donation program.  As a transplant tourist, you can schedule your heart transplant in advance.  This is only available in China, and there is only one possible explanation for how that can work out.

    "How to turn political prisoners into a profit center."

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  • Sun, Feb 16, 2020 - 6:09pm

    Alexis

    Alexis

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    New York- buffalo area hiding cases?

    I admit I peruse twitter looking for news Since this whole ncov started... it is how I solidified my weird feelings about this while coronavirus thing to begin with, which lead me to PP. Point being, Twitter let’s people get info out quickly although takes time to verify I admit.

    I just came across what appears to be a man saying his wife works at one of the hospitals in Buffalo, NY and he says they are and have tested many Chinese students, from Hubei he states (but sure how does he know that right?). He says the medical and police staff have been served gag orders to not discuss the true situation. I have been highly suspect if USA only having 15 confirmed cases. I’m also very suspicious about why we never get follow ups... whatever happened to the couple in Cali who were taken to the hospital after worsening? The little girl that was taken back to the hospital for more testing... anyway. I do believe, where there is smoke there is fire. I keep hearing about how bad our flu season is, yet there are people saying they have flu like symptoms but no one will test for ncov and flu/strep are coming back negative. Too many of these happening in different social media accounts. I thinking I’m drawing my red line to the end of this week and the we are going on lockdown here. Ordering the last of my supplies tonight!

    here is one of the videos of the man talking, there is another thread saying this same thing is happening somewhere in Pa. I’m in Houston with rows upon rows of hospitals and international community. I’m sure it’s here as well. 🙁 I’ve tried searching in my local group forums but oddly, there is 00000 info on Facebook about it. Info Suppression for sure.

    another note, someone shipped a bit from an event 201 talk and the lady at the podium says something to the degree about needing to only be “1 voice” during this sort of (epidemic) situation and they should suppress other sources of news. So i think we should all beef up on the suggestions from the event 201 outcome. Oddly enough, I saw bill gates just places an order for another mega yacht.....

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  • Sun, Feb 16, 2020 - 7:04pm

    Tom Sammy

    Tom Sammy

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    Posts: 135

    China’s “Quarantine” Strategy??

    I’ve seen a lot of disturbing footage from China with folks being dragged away against their will, entire apartment complexes being sealed shut, and quarantine “hospitals” (with no medical care, no sanitary practices, yet lots of window bars and locks).  How likely is it that with these “quarantines” the government is expecting the virus to run its course and not have many people ever actually walk out or get better?  In the process by locking everyone in, this reduces the stress on the hospital systems. Also, since to those infected cannot leave their home they can’t be counted..... things “look” better as daily counts should slow down.

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  • Sun, Feb 16, 2020 - 7:25pm

    BillL

    BillL

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    @ 0655...

    Probably not popular, but the truth.

    Lots of people today seem to think they are going to live forever.

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  • Sun, Feb 16, 2020 - 7:28pm

    Tom Sammy

    Tom Sammy

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    Joined: Jan 30 2020

    Posts: 135

    Senator Tom Cotton says no more lies China!!!!

    Senator Tom back again..........Go get’em  Tom!

    Maria Baritromo - is that an Owl on your shirt?

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  • Sun, Feb 16, 2020 - 7:55pm

    Sparky1

    Sparky1

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    Joined: Jul 21 2016

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    Gail T., "Chinese coronavirus" as nature's intergenerational economic equalizer

    Wow! This is the first time I've seen this sentiment expressed so bluntly. Occasionally I've seen it buried in the comments section of some YT video or MSM article.

    Excerpt:

    "...the operation of the Chinese coronavirus might even be considered a benefit to society as a whole. The world has overcome the impact of measles, typhoid, polio, and many other diseases. In some sense, it “needs” a new disease added to its portfolio, to replace the ones that have been mostly taken care of by modern medicine. In this way, pensions and other payments targeting the old and weak don’t become too great a burden on the young."

    So, nature came up with the "Chinese coronavirus" as a means of reducing the numbers of old and weak depending on pensions and other payments?? The World Health (and Trade) Organization might find her economic imperative argument persuasive. However, they won't be happy with her referring to Covid-2019 as the "Chinese coronavirus"--potentially racist. (But not a problem being ageist?)

     

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  • Sun, Feb 16, 2020 - 8:02pm

    Matties

    Matties

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    Posts: 160

    Risk calculation

    What i see from 2003 is SARS dying out in May in Hong Kong. Important is temperature, humidity and sunlight (UV).
    So i made up an table in which i added these numbers. When the total arise above 45 corona starts to be seriously hampered.

    Then i did the same for New York. They only get there late in June, July and August.

    risk calculation SARS

    You can do this for your own city.

    Ex claimer : This is my personal way of seeing things.

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  • Sun, Feb 16, 2020 - 8:16pm

    pat the rat

    pat the rat

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    Joined: Nov 01 2011

    Posts: 148

    cool aid

    I almost bought the cool aid,this fight is not in big city. This fight is in the small towns and villages. If China looses in the country nothing they do in the big city will help.What China has done in the big city is very impressive,but it is the cool aid,only time will tell the real story here.

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  • Sun, Feb 16, 2020 - 10:10pm

    nordicjack

    nordicjack

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    It seems the there is a major conspiracy going on to hide this virus and suppress and Censor information media

    I think it obvious between facebook , google etc.. and accounts by persons with direct knowledge that there is severe suppression of information and censorship going on.  I never believed this could be so pervasive ,  throughout .. I am aware of corruption in politics.. but google and facebook?  comon..   local govts.. drs, health care workers.. city planners, health commissioners?   really!!?

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  • Sun, Feb 16, 2020 - 11:17pm

    nordicjack

    nordicjack

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    Joined: Feb 03 2020

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    Window to prep is about closed. You have 4-5 days max,

    I think we are a about 4 weeks from chaos.   Our govt has no ability to handle this.   Luckily, thanks to the govt we have a few more days . but why are they hiding to so much?  their incompetence.  What would you do ?  say its time to start looting pillaging, raping at 5pm ?      Maybe that is why they are just lying..

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  • Sun, Feb 16, 2020 - 11:36pm

    Ben Burke

    Ben Burke

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    Channel News Asia

    I think I'm becoming a bit desensitised to the apparent blanket 'keep calm' message from MSM.

    CNA is mainstream, and hardly apolitical.... this report had me sit up and take notice. Two Singaporean Drs, both involved in infectious diseases, talking openly about R0 of 6... Dr Leong Hoe Nam suggesting the infection rate maybe 40 times the figures.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X3HI8aM0ELY

    Yet, I still don't feel I can share this with anyone outside of PP. Everyone I know, almost no exceptions, is in the 'just the flu' camp. Oh well.

     

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  • Sun, Feb 16, 2020 - 11:49pm

    Sparky1

    Sparky1

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    Alexis, check-out PP forum re: discussion on NY Covid-2019 suspected cases; information blackout

    There's a PP forum started today re: NYS Covid-2019.

    It is literally unbelievable that NYS is not yet reporting even a single confirmed case of Covid-2019 infection.

    The CDC defers to state and local health departments as to whether and how much information to make public re: Covid-2019 suspected, confirmed, recovered, or deceased cases. Universities, with their substantial international and highly mobile student populations living in close quarters, are hot spots for viral and bacterial spread. Universities and their teaching hospitals have tended to provide little, if any information, citing patient confidentiality. So people in those regions need to rely on informal reports from insiders, who are often health care workers and their immediate families. In addition to the elevated risk of exposure and infection from working on the front lines of the hospital/medical facilities, these workers could be fired for breach of patient confidentiality if it is discovered that they told others about suspected/confirmed Covid-2019 patients at their facility.

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  • Mon, Feb 17, 2020 - 3:08am

    Sabemenos

    Sabemenos

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    40-70% of earth’s population infected in one year

    thats the estimate the Wall Street Journal gave yesterday.  Wow.  If even a conservative paper like the WSJ is reporting numbers like that then there isn’t any doubt that this is unstoppable. I understand most cases are mild.  Does anyone know what % of cases require medical treatment?  Because if it’s even 5% that will bring the global health system and a lot of other systems to their knees and the impact this thing won’t be over in a few weeks

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  • Mon, Feb 17, 2020 - 3:48am

    Sparky1

    Sparky1

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    The MoneyGPS on China's damaged economy due to Covid-2019 and global economic impact

    Two new videos from The MoneyGPS shed light on China and the global economy during this coronavirus pandemic. His videos tend to be about 10-12 minutes long, are well-researched and very informative.

    China Economy Grinds To A HALT! Important Indicators Prove Unprecedented STOP.

    https://youtu.be/YjrKUmME8nw

    If China’s Economy Falls, the Global Economic Collapse Will Follow

    https://youtu.be/ZPAzhhNqLuQ

    Background:  David Quintieri from The MoneyGPS goes through in clear, concise and well-researched detail indicators of China's damaged economy from the coronavirus, and the resulting impact on the global economy. He generally produces one video per day, and always posts a link in the video description to all the charts and resources used in his presentations.

    Along with his quirky "thumbnail" graphics in which he cameos and rapid fire presentations, David is well-known for his signature phrase: "You came here for the truth, so let me unveil that for you." The "7 Shares of Amazon" meme is his tongue-in-cheek reference to those who believe stock ""market"" signals that the economy is doing well (e.g., "I own 7 shares of Amazon, which always goes up."; "My 401k has never been higher!"). Based in Toronto, Canada, David has a worldwide following.

    Disclosure:  I have no financial or personal interest in The MoneyGPS or its personnel.

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  • Mon, Feb 17, 2020 - 4:05am

    Sparky1

    Sparky1

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    Sabemenos, I think about 20% of infected are categorized as "severe"

    Peppered throughout these threads are data, studies and comments that suggest about 20% of the Covid-2019 infected are categorized as "severe" and needing intense medical monitoring and treatment. Perhaps one of the other PP members can correct me if that figure isn't right and/or add a link to a source. Caveat: this case severity estimate is based on data from China, which is pretty universally viewed as incomplete and/or suspect.

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  • Mon, Feb 17, 2020 - 4:45am

    Rajkumarijay

    Rajkumarijay

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    The older people have much wisdom...

    A fact that this “Gail” doesn’t want to recognize. Being 61 myself, and having worked hard my whole life, I certainly would like to experience a few years of retirement. I think that would be fair. In her scenario, it will be mainly the rich who can afford to have healthcare and live longer lives. Money shouldn’t determine who gets to live and who gets to die.

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  • Mon, Feb 17, 2020 - 5:49am

    Oliveoilguy

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    Posts: 753

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    14 new infections discovered after leaving cruise ship

    https://www.foxnews.com/health/coronavirus-quarantine-diamond-princess-cruise-ship-chartered-flights

    This emphasizes the difficulty of diagnosis. While the world is watching 14 people who tested negative were allowed to disembark and en route to the air transport, and then some test results came in that changed their status to infected. This seems poorly managed or nefarious. But who knows.....just struggling to get facts.

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  • Mon, Feb 17, 2020 - 5:57am

    saxplayer00o1

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    Posts: 3134

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    NIH official says coronavirus 'on the verge' of becoming global pandemic unless containment becomes 'more successful'

    NIH official says coronavirus 'on the verge' of becoming global pandemic unless containment becomes 'more successful'
    A top official at the National Institutes of Health (NIH) said Sunday that the coronavirus outbreak is “on the verge” of becoming a global pandemic unless containment of the deadly disease becomes “more successful.”

    Anthony Fauci, the director of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases, told CBS’s “Face The Nation” that multiple person-to-person transmissions need to occur in multiple countries in order to reach the pandemic threshold.

    https://thehill.com/homenews/sunday-talk-shows/483294-nih-official-says-coronavirus-on-the-verge-of-reaching-global

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  • Mon, Feb 17, 2020 - 6:21am

    sand_puppy

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    Posts: 2368

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    Number of Cases Outside of China

    Taken from a post at ZH, no specific source is listed.

    A fellow American ED doc closely connected with Asia advises that of the 50 infected in Singapore 8 require ICU level care (giving about 16% serous complication rate).

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  • Mon, Feb 17, 2020 - 6:24am

    El777

    El777

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    Economy vs Human Lives

    What do they mean that they prioritize economy over human lives? How does the economy benefit if tons of people die?

    Less people = less customers/buyers = less demands = less business

    Less people = less human capital, value creators & production?

    Like, how does economy even exist without the existence of healthy, living, productive human beings? Didn't we invent money & economy to improve our lives in the first place?

    So yeah, I'm at loss as to what top officials mean that the focus should be on saving the economy instead of people when there IS no economy without people...isn't this kind of like saying the focus should be on saving the ecosystem instead of trees?

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  • Mon, Feb 17, 2020 - 6:25am

    rermen

    rermen

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    rermen said:

    The situation is much worse  I think most Westerners really do not have an idea just what the government in China is capable of.

    https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/violent-aftermath-of-coronavirus/

    I don't blame the Chinese people, but I do blame their government, the Chinese Communist Party. Communism is bad, m'kay. Just like the former Soviet Union with Chernobyl, you can trust nothing from official sources. They will say and do whatever is necessary to save face.

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  • Mon, Feb 17, 2020 - 6:27am

    Tom Sammy

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    Increase in quarantine time, and a potential case from Nov. with long incubation?

    Interesting info in this article -

    China increases quarantine period to 21 days (hopefully US does the same !)

    Also - not confirmed but a *potential* case from Novemberthat may have transferred with 94 day incubation.

    “The county government announced it would extend the home quarantine period from 14 to 21 days for residents who had been to Hubei or had contact with people who had been there.

    It also reported a case that was confirmed 94 days after the patient’s contact with a relative from Hubei. The patient had taken care of his father-in-law, who arrived from Wuhan on November 13 and died days later. The son-in-law continued to stay in the father-in-law’s house until January 31. However, the government statement said the origin of the son-in-law’s infection had yet to be identified.”

    https://www.scmp.com/news/china/society/article/3050893/coronavirus-death-toll-rises-1770-china-reports-100-new

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  • Mon, Feb 17, 2020 - 6:31am

    mountainsteps

    mountainsteps

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    mountainsteps said:

    Couldn't have worded it better! Your last sentence summarizes why people are preoccupied with this idea perfectly.

    ------------------------------------------------

    Here Comes The Plague song:

    Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/track/5ryNrZLhCcDq92dEP0wLlh

    YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=loiFUWKF8LY

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  • Mon, Feb 17, 2020 - 6:36am

    dtrammel

    Status: Silver Member

    Joined: May 03 2011

    Posts: 800

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    Japanese Should Be Worried

    I've read that some of the people from the ship didn't want to fly back because of the additional 14 day quarantine. That they would be getting off the ship in a few days if they stayed in Japan.

    https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/14-cruise-ship-evacuees-landing-at-travis-air-force-base-test-positive-for-coronavirus/ar-BB104JjP

    14 people who were on board the ship, who are flying back have now tested positive. Makes me wonder if any of the ones that stayed, may be positive.

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  • Mon, Feb 17, 2020 - 6:38am

    mountainsteps

    mountainsteps

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    mountainsteps said:

    Funny how people like Gail are fine with these abhorrent beliefs as long as they are the ones defining what and who qualifies as "deadwood". I doubt she would like it if she was classified as deadwood!

    ------------------------------------------------

    Here Comes The Plague song:

    Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/track/5ryNrZLhCcDq92dEP0wLlh

    YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=loiFUWKF8LY

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  • Mon, Feb 17, 2020 - 6:42am

    Zana Hart

    Zana Hart

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    Photos and comments from people on the cruise ship where there is coronavirus

    Interesting...

    https://www.boredpanda.com/coronavirus-diamond-princess-cruise-ship/

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  • Mon, Feb 17, 2020 - 6:46am

    thc0655

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    Everybody knows

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  • Mon, Feb 17, 2020 - 6:48am

    Tom Sammy

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    Nothing ever escapes from Viralogy Study Labs, right?

    Severe acute respiratory syndrome, or SARS, had an outbreak in 2003. Since then it hasn’t reoccurred in the wild, but there have been six separate incidents of it escaping the lab: one in Singapore, one in Taiwan, and four times at one lab in Beijing.

    Nice history article here of  leaks over time:

    https://www.vox.com/future-perfect/2019/3/20/18260669/deadly-pathogens-escape-lab-smallpox-bird-flu

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  • Mon, Feb 17, 2020 - 6:48am

    Zana Hart

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    Haven't owned a microwave in over 25 years

    After I read that microwaves alter the fats in food. Frankly haven't missed it.

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  • Mon, Feb 17, 2020 - 7:00am

    Awka72

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    Attitudes of those who remained

    If the intent was to head straight to self quarantine, I might be sympathetic. The one receiving the most publicity wants to go out exploring & shopping in Japan, and who knows where else....

    I can't speak to their situation obviously, and it must suck, but I think we should consider them all potentially infected, and this quarantine a failure.

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  • Mon, Feb 17, 2020 - 7:09am

    dtrammel

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    Good To Heat Up Tea or Coffee

    I'm not sure I trust myself with an open flame on the stove Zana if I'm really sick. At least a microwave has a timer and is quick.

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  • Mon, Feb 17, 2020 - 7:42am

    Sabemenos

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    If 20% of cases are severe-!!!!!

    Sparky, that number is horrifying. If 20% is close to  correct, then 4 hundred million people will need hospital treatment for Covid 19 this year.  Even if the correct number is only 5% then we are still talking about 100 million people needing hospital beds

    That means that the medical system will be overwhelmed, hospital care won’t be available for most and as a result the case fatality rate will skyrocket.   I know you PP folks have been saying this for weeks, but once you look at the actual numbers, the impact is staggering

    and that means  There’s no way we are going to see the V shaped recovery Bloomberg news is talking about.

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  • Mon, Feb 17, 2020 - 7:46am

    Tom Sammy

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    Coronavirus in the US - The fact is we can’t effectively identify cases

    One of the  biggest challenges in controlling spread of the virus.....we don’t have the means to sufficiently find it...........

    The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) states that the novel coronavirus (COVID-19) is "NOT currently spreading in the community in the United States," but that it is an "emerging, rapidly evolving situation."

    "It is impossible to be sure that the virus is not spreading without more extensive testing," stated Jane M. Orient, M.D., president of Doctors for Disaster Preparedness. Testing for COVID-19 has been restricted to "persons under suspicion" (PUIs), that is persons with fever, signs of a lower respiratory infection, and a history of travel to China or exposure to a person known to have COVID-19 or travel to China within 14 days of symptom onset.

    The CDC has now liberalized the criteria: "For severely ill individuals, testing can be considered when exposure history is equivocal (e.g., uncertain travel or exposure, or no known exposure) and another etiology has not been identified." The availability of test kits is limited, and "performance issues" were identified in the manufacturing of one of the reagents, so these will need to be replaced.

    "With all laboratory tests, there are both false positives and false negatives," Dr. Orient warned.

    On social media, people with cough and fever are posting their concerns that hospitals will not test them for COVID-19 even if they are negative for influenza—

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  • Mon, Feb 17, 2020 - 8:06am

    Tom Sammy

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    Wuhan Center for Disease control - 300yds from wet market could have been origin

    A new bombshell paper from the Beijing-sponsored South China University of Technology says that the Wuhan Center for Disease Control (WHCDC) could have spawned the contagion in Hubei province.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8009669/Did-coronavirus-originate-Chinese-government-laboratory.html

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  • Mon, Feb 17, 2020 - 8:07am

    rabbitami

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    rabbitami said:

    Hong Kong health department due to the shortage of N95 Medical Mask released this process for making your own DYI health mask, about 80% effective so would not want to use in hospital environment.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aNjpH5lBZ8w

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  • Mon, Feb 17, 2020 - 8:09am

    Mark_BC

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    Mark_BC said:

    I’m at loss as to what top officials mean that the focus should be on saving the economy instead of people…isn’t this kind of like saying the focus should be on saving the ecosystem instead of trees?

    You're new here so maybe you are unaware of the economic background to all this developed on sites like this over the last 12 years since the 2008 crisis.

    Essentially, the economy died back in 2008 and what we perceive as "markets" since has been the resurrected zombies made to appear alive like Weekend at Bernies.

    The consensus is that "the economy" has morphed into a gigantic ponzi scheme, an unprecedented bubble supported only by central bank money printing directed to where it needs to go to offset the deflationary crash that is always waiting to happen with hyperinflation from the inherent worthlessness of the dollar since so much of it has been printed into existence out of nothing and thrown into the "markets".

    The reasons behind this are fascinating and well covered here. Fundamentally, the reason for this is that the economy can no longer grow organically due to resource constraints. This then throws all conventional economics out the window.

    Without growth, half the population in jobs today associated with growth would be unemployed. Furthermore, robots have taken so many of our jobs so that adds additional pressure on the system. Thirdly, our manufacturing based has been outsourced to China because it is cheaper there due to currency manipulation.

    The only thing holding this together is consumer spending which provides enough GDP and jobs for everyone in the service sector to avert disaster. That is why interest rates have been continually reduced and personal debt levels soared.

    When the inevitable crash eventually comes, expect a mad max type scenario to emerge which will be unavoidable when unemployment jumps to 80% and the government no longer has the means to print money to support people due to a currency crash and huperinflation.

    Clearly such a crash would claim more than the measly 1% death rate of this virus so if authorities let draconian quarantine measures interfere with consumer spending and manufacturing in China then the results would be catastrophic if this managed to topple the ponzi scheme financial system.

    Personally, I think they will use the virus as a good news story, just like a war. Supposedly wars stimulate GDP as spending and activity ramps up. They'll do something similar here to provide a response to the virus. Combine this with lower interest rates and it's a good news story for the economy, provided they lift quarantine restrictions.

    On the other hand, maybe they'll just let the system go and bring in a reset. It's a possibility but I doubt it based on how they have been behaving so far.

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  • Mon, Feb 17, 2020 - 8:15am

    Chris Martenson

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    Nursing Yourself At Home

    I came across this on Reddit this morning.  Looked useful so I am reposting it here:

    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    Nursing 101: Caring for your loved ones at home

    Your goal as a home healthcare provider is to build and support the immune system, limit the progression of the disease, and effectively communicate with local healthcare providers to determine if additional care or hospitalization is needed.

    Start a medical folder or chart for each person while everyone is still healthy if possible. Have this on hand during phone calls with medical providers and for medical care/hospitalizations.

    • Birthday

    • Height and Weight

    • Medical history: diagnoses, surgeries, hospitalizations

    • Medications-prescription and herbal supplements: name, dose, frequency. For as needed medications like Tylenol or Tums, note the date and time taken.

    • Normal vital signs: Pulse beats per minute. Temperature. Respirations per minute. Blood Oxygen Level % (pulse oximeters can be purchased online and in drug stores inexpensively). Pain level on a scale of 0-10 including: location, duration, description. Tracking for seven to ten days at different times should be sufficient to establish a baseline. *Blood pressure readings at home can be inaccurate and cause alarm so unless you have a loved one with bp issues, I might skip bp. To double check an at home bp reading, you can visit your local pharmacy. You may also want to purchase a stethoscope and take an online crash course on listening to the various breath sounds.

    • Include: a chart with normal vital signs by age group, charts for proper Tylenol and Ibuprofen doses by age/weight. These can be given at the same time. Tylenol every 4 hours, Ibuprofen every 6. Some doctors recommend alternating every 3 hours to have continuous coverage.

    • Copy of ID and insurance card if you have one.

    • Research your medical system/insurance. Find out who your primary care doctor is, if your insurance covers telephone nurses or doctors, in home visits, urgent care centers, and emergency rooms. Keep these names, numbers, and locations in each folder.

    When illness begins:

    • Note onset date, symptoms, and vital signs every 4-8 hours depending on severity.

    • Note calls to physicians and their advice.

    • Note interventions. As symptoms become more severe also document vital signs before and after to see if what you are doing is working.

    Caring for someone with viral respiratory symptoms:

    • Wash your hands with soap and water before and after each contact. Wear a protective mask if available.

    • Keep the windows of the room open if temperature permits or air out room several times a day.

    • Encourage patient to spend time outside daily in the sunshine in the yard, porch, or on a patio if possible to limit exposure to others.

    • Change bedding daily, clothing twice daily.

    • Morning and night showers with steam.

    • Drink 2 liters of water per day (includes soups and teas). Urine should be slightly yellow in color, darker urine indicates dehydration.

    • Caffeine in green tea or coffee can help to open the airways.

    • Saline nebulizer or saltwater steam inhalation every 4 hours to coat the lungs with antimicrobial properties.

    • Incentive spirometer or deep breathing exercises every 2 hours except when sleeping.

    • Allow fever up to 102 if they can stand it. Your body raises the temperature to assist the immune system.

    • Warm herbal teas to soothe the throat from coughing (peppermint, eucalyptus, fenugreek, ginger, licorice).

    • Salt water gargle (children under 6 and elderly may not be able to do this safely)

    • Elderberry syrup, Vitamin C, and garlic (1-2 raw cloves/day) as antivirals-Begin within 48 hours of symptom onset for best results.

    • Multivitamins twice daily

    • Chest percussion/postural draining of the lungs twice daily if the patient is young, elderly, not coughing well, or oxygen saturations are below their normal reading. https://www.cff.org/Life-With-CF/Treatments-and-Therapies/Airway-Clearance/Basics-of-Postural-Drainage-and-Percussion/

    To reduce a fever without medication or while you’re waiting: Strip clothes down to a T-shirt and underwear, limit bedding to a flat sheet. Turn on a room fan. Use warm washcloths to wipe down the patient’s arms, legs, back, face. (You are simulating sweating.) Ice packs wrapped in towels can be placed under armpits, behind the neck, at the lower back or groin, and behind knees. Cool water, ice chips, or popsicles can be given.*Do not submerge the patient in water. You can cause shock. The goal is to slowly lower the temperature and reverse the feedback loop.Temperature should normalize, but may return in a few hours. This cycle is okay and normal. Fever helps the immune system, but you do want to treat it if the fever is making the patient uncomfortable or if the temperature rises to 102.

    “Hospitals are only an intermediate stage of civilization, never intended … to take in the whole sick population. May we hope that the day will come … when every poor sick person will have the opportunity of a share in a district sick-nurse at home.” – Florence Nightingale

    ***Please note: You should review your medical plan with your physician before illness sets in. Make sure that the herbal remedies, medications, and medical plan for your family is appropriate for their age, medical history, and medical conditions and that nothing listed here is contraindicated. Encourage and ask your healthcare provider for other ideas or interventions to best prepare. Note also that in an emergency internet access may not be available, so it is important to have a paper record.

    (Source)

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  • Mon, Feb 17, 2020 - 8:34am

    Tom Sammy

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    Cruise ship update - 454 cases

    posting as I have found it increasingly difficult to get timely updates on the cruise ship.....

    99 new cases.  This makes 454 cases out of 3700......~ 12% infection rate...

    which will likely continue to rise as they said all passengers will eventually be tested

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/feb/17/coronavirus-japan-braces-for-hundreds-more-cases-as-another-china-city-locked-down

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  • Mon, Feb 17, 2020 - 8:52am

    saxplayer00o1

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    Coronavirus could impact 5 million companies worldwide, new research shows

    Coronavirus could impact 5 million companies worldwide, new research shows
    Dun & Bradstreet researchers found that at least 51,000 companies worldwide, 163 of which are in the Fortune 1000, have one or more direct or “tier 1” suppliers in the impacted region, while at least 5 million — and 938 in the Fortune 1000 — have one or more “tier 2″ suppliers.

    https://www.cnbc.com/2020/02/17/coronavirus-could-impact-5-million-companies-worldwide-research-shows.html

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  • Mon, Feb 17, 2020 - 9:08am

    Time2help

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    Re: Nursing 101

    Would a dedicated thread for home care be possible? Would be nice to have Sandpuppy's and the Nursing Reddit thread recommendations in one location along with similar content. Something to bookmark versus searching for. Apologies if this has already been developed.

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  • Mon, Feb 17, 2020 - 9:37am

    Bheithir

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    Hand Washing!

    My hands are cracking too and I live in the South with high humidity and warmer weather. Just remember that those cracked hands are an opening for bacteria and virus intrusion. Get some hand cream to mitigate the cracking. (I need to take my own advice. LOL)

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  • Mon, Feb 17, 2020 - 9:42am

    Gus Spreen

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    Homeopathic Treatments?

    https://www.organicconsumers.org/news/homeopathy-successfully-treated-flu-epidemic-1918

    https://heine.familiedeelstra.com/sites/heine.familiedeelstra.com/files/Dewey_Homeopathy_in_Influenza.pdf.pdf

    https://atomictherapy.org/novel-coronavirus-2019-homeopathic-treatment/

    Only experience with homeopathic treatment is recommend dosing for serious problems with poison ivy reaction.  Not a magic bullet, but did significantly reduce the problems.

    From 1918 flu account, it seems that the use of aspirin (fever breaker?) was a negative impact on the outcome.  The major benefit of the homeopathic treatment may have been just to prevent the use of aspirin and its apparent negative effect on the body's natural immune system and feedback loop to prevent unnecessary/out of control inflammation.

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  • Mon, Feb 17, 2020 - 9:55am

    SteveW

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    Difficulty of Diagnosis

    While it is understood that there are diagnostic problems, the tone of your post verges on dis-information or perhaps you did not read your source?

    "During the evacuation process, after passengers had disembarked the ship and initiated transport to the airport, U.S. officials received notice that 14 passengers, who had been tested 2-3 days earlier, had tested positive for COVID-19. These individuals were moved in the most expeditious and safe manner to a specialized containment area on the evacuation aircraft to isolate them in accordance with standard protocols," the U.S. Department of State said in a release."

    https://www.foxnews.com/health/coronavirus-quarantine-diamond-princess-cruise-ship-chartered-flights

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  • Mon, Feb 17, 2020 - 10:31am

    Awka72

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    Drinking green tea? Gargle with it as well.

    There is some evidence green tea may help with viral sore throat when gargled. Sounds weird, but I've tried it & it's much more pleasant than peroxide or salt water, and seems beneficial.

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  • Mon, Feb 17, 2020 - 10:48am

    thejacksonteam

    thejacksonteam

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    at home care

    Chris...would you recommend an at-home oxygen generator (which can be had for $600 +/-) to bolster at home treatment?

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  • Mon, Feb 17, 2020 - 10:51am

    BillL

    BillL

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    Normalcy bias everyday, all day with the majority Ben.

    All we can do is make the attempt to educate people about this.

    We have a rather small circle that we hang with and everyone has been informed and on board.  Our group reasonably lives a sustainable lifestyle.  We are not perfect but we strive to help one another and improve our position daily.

     

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  • Mon, Feb 17, 2020 - 11:07am

    BillL

    BillL

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    U of M...

    I wouldn't put much value on that biologist opinion, they will tow the government line to the end of the earth.  I used to date a gal that when to school there...long time ago.

    Even then it was a progressive, grant-sucking, close-minded, sportball-loving institution (for Alum donations) of lower learning for the most part.  Any research out of there imo is self-serving and aimed at grabbing another bundle of taxpayer funds in a last ditch effort to keep the doors open.

    I may have missed something but I doubt it.

     

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  • Mon, Feb 17, 2020 - 11:08am

    Mr Curious

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    Ridin the storm out

    Hey Ben and BilL I still have some hope that 'it won't be that bad'. However, if it is bad, we can rest assured that most people won't admit it until it is too late. Just like the markets, we should have fixed that crap a long time ago but even to this day, very few of the thinking class sees any problem with our living arrangements

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  • Mon, Feb 17, 2020 - 11:24am

    dtrammel

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    Coming Up In The Forums - List of Comments

    Re: Nursing 101: Would a dedicated thread for home care be possible? Would be nice to have Sandpuppy’s and the Nursing Reddit thread recommendations in one location along with similar content. Something to bookmark versus searching for. Apologies if this has already been developed.

    I have some megathreads of past comments going up in the Forums. So far I have them for January. That's about as far as I've gotten. It takes a huge amount of time to go back and manually read, sort and link the comments. February's comments will be up later in the week as I can get them sorted.

    First two are up. The third will be as soon as PP unfreezes me. The antispam software locked me out just now, lol. Guess I posted too much/too big.

    First two are here:

    Coronavirus: Medicinals, Herbals and Supplements Megathread for January 2020

    Coronavirus: Sanitation, PPE and Self Quarantine Megathread for January 2020

    ADDED: Third post is up now.

    Coronavirus: Home Prep, Deep Pantry & Gardening Megathread for January 2020

     

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  • Mon, Feb 17, 2020 - 11:26am

    Wallpaper

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    Wallpaper said:

    just wondering how long before the WHO uses the propaganda watchdogs.... FB Twitter, YouTube etc. to shut down ANY discussion about how to prepare for this bioweapon as it rampages across the world (and their precious stock markets).

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  • Mon, Feb 17, 2020 - 11:30am

    MarkM

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    Not long

    https://www.zerohedge.com/technology/who-holds-secret-talks-tech-giants-stop-spread-coronavirus-misinformation

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  • Mon, Feb 17, 2020 - 11:38am

    Alexis

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    Home care: Nebulized hypertonic saline Solution

    https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/a98e/d5c8672f420a7592c50497eaad96e31063f5.pdf

    I’ve been scouring for alternative treatments for ARDS and randomly came upon some products sold for RSV and Bronchiolitis in children and infants. Anyway, found the above linked article which seems to support using hypertonic saline nebulizer. Which I interpret to mean using saline in a humidifier may be good as well lol (not medical advice, I need to research that subject next lol ;). I do have a home nebulizer and will purchase the hypertonic nebs just in case.

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  • Mon, Feb 17, 2020 - 11:56am

    dtrammel

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    Natural DIY Vapor Rub

    Might be of help relieving congestion.

    https://wellnessmama.com/3527/vapor-rub/

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  • Mon, Feb 17, 2020 - 12:36pm

    George Karpouzis

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    Joined: Feb 17 2009

    Posts: 189

    Anyone here feeling better about this situation?

    For me, the turning point came with the travel bans. Once all the flights were stopped from China I felt much more relieved. Growth outside of China has been very slow (at least reported). In addition, 896 cases outside of China, 5 deaths, CFR of .5%. I've been following this story since January 25th. Its been 3 weeks and I'm not seeing any outbreaks anywhere other than Hubei Province.

    China is about to start ordering people to get back to work. It wouldnt surprise me that the lockdown efforts will end up being more harmful than the virus itself as people are losing access to basic necessities.

    Call me optimistic or naive, but I'm feeling better about this situation.

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  • Mon, Feb 17, 2020 - 12:55pm

    SteveW

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    Jan 2 directive from Wuhan Inst. Virology (BSL4) lab Director

    At the very least it appears that the novel pneumonia was known at the highest level on January 2. Jennifer Zeng has been following the COVID-19 story and I consider her to be a reliable source.

    In addition the Daily Mail also reports that Botao Xiao and Lei Xiao of the South China University of Technology suggest that the Wuhan Centre for Disease Control (which is not the BSL4 lab) could have spawned the outbreak. I cannot find this original report but the mere fact that it exists and was allowed to be published suggests that the narrative in changing.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8009669/Did-coronavirus-originate-Chinese-government-laboratory.html

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  • Mon, Feb 17, 2020 - 12:58pm

    Hugh

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    Looking over your shoulder not a bad thing

    Spent a career on the tip of the spear as a fighter pilot.  Always prepare for the worst, in order to allow yourselves to hope for the best.

    Passive deception in the game too   I bought biohazard quarantine signs  for example

     

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  • Mon, Feb 17, 2020 - 1:17pm

    Tom Sammy

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    Re: Slow growth

    I don’t know what to make of China data since it’s a bunch of crap (also maybe the millions locked in their homes cant get out to be tested).

    I posted the data below outside of China...

    In less than 1 month cases went from 9 to 781 ( an 8,578% increase). That seems fairly fast to me....  I take with grain of salt because it does include the cruise ship #s.   I’d like to see how the Singapore cases rise in next few weeks to make better guess on spread rate outside of China.

     

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  • Mon, Feb 17, 2020 - 1:59pm

    AKGrannyWGrit

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    What to tell your patient?

    Was just on the phone with a friend who is a nurse. Her info and mine/yours is different

    Coronavirus: How to Address Your Patients’ Concerns

    Interesting: Article tells nurses - “Masks give a false sense of protection and cronovirus is NOT airborne.”

    Good thing that fake news is heavily censored.(sarcasm)

    AKGrannyWGrit

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  • Mon, Feb 17, 2020 - 2:10pm

    Mark_BC

    Status: Bronze Member

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    Mark_BC said:

    How long before WordPress shuts down this site

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  • Mon, Feb 17, 2020 - 2:35pm

    Mary59

    Mary59

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    Follow the Math

    Hello

    I worked out the numbers in response to a friend from Toronto being so self assured in her confidence that the great city of Toronto, province of Ontario in the vast land of Canada would provide sound guidance and care for all for COVID-19.  Not so fast say the unbiased numbers.  Ontario has a population of 14.5 million.  If only one percent get infected, then 145,000 are the number of cases.  If only one percent of the one percent need ICU support, then than means 1450 patients need respirators etc.  The total number of respirator assisted bed in Ontario is 1057.  So at a vastly underestimated scenario, the Province of Ontario is 393 beds short.  Today.

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  • Mon, Feb 17, 2020 - 2:42pm

    Haiku4U

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    Love the REO video...

    RIP Gary Richrath.

    I'm sure he is playing his awesome guitar Rifs and watching out for us from above.

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  • Mon, Feb 17, 2020 - 2:51pm

    wyrldtraveler

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    Los Alamos Labs data projection = scary

    Reading the article, it carefully dances around the issue of the data inputs being insufficient, which PP has been talking about for weeks:

    Disease modelers gaze into their computers to see the future of Covid-19, and it isn’t good

     

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  • Mon, Feb 17, 2020 - 3:27pm

    Nairobi

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    Who is swimming naked now?

    What surprises me most about this current story about the Novel Corona Virus is how shallow a story this is through the lens of Chinese censorship and their domestic media control.

    It has no substance, it has no depth, it lacks the character that comes with honest facts and genuine solutions.

    I am unimpressed by how one dimensional the state and media apparatus over there appears to us now that they have the floor all to themselves now that everything industrial has been silenced.

    Like a barren desert.

    Like a cartoon cut-out.

    That is what you get with crony leadership that does not tolerate any arguments or dissent. And that should be obvious to all onlookers as the Chinese economy has ground to a halt.

    And what remains?

    The only thing that country is exporting right now are lies, propaganda and disease. The tide went out and we all see the CCP is swimming naked.

    Way to go Mr Xi.

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  • Mon, Feb 17, 2020 - 3:36pm

    El777

    El777

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    Joined: Feb 01 2020

    Posts: 12

    El777 said:

    The only thing holding this together is consumer spending which provides enough GDP and jobs for everyone in the service sector to avert disaster. That is why interest rates have been continually reduced and personal debt levels soared.

     

    VERY INTERESTING BACKGROUND! Really got me thinking!

    I know some of the problems with the current economy, like value shifting instead of value creation, drastic job loss from automation. That's why I've been such an avid supporter of Andrew Yang for the 2020 presidential run. He wrote a book which specially addressed the extreme outcomes we've experienced, like sky rocketing debts, creating exotic formulas which led to the mortgage crisis, fed interest policies etc.,.

    So if I understand what you are saying correctly, everything boils down to consumer spending. Then wouldn't consumer spending suffer massively if the "consumers" have died from the virus, and the consumers' family unit broke down and/or thrown into poverty due deaths and/or getting disabled from the virus.

    I feel consumer spending depends on consumers being prosperous, thriving and thus having the ability to spend. I just  don'tsee how enabling the virus to kill millions of people (aka consumers), and having millions more deal with the resulting trauma/despair/dysfunctions would help with that...

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  • Mon, Feb 17, 2020 - 3:37pm

    Matties

    Matties

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    Joined: Jan 30 2020

    Posts: 160

    Connection with HIV and Hepatitis C (link to topic)

    Covid-19 created in lab?

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  • Mon, Feb 17, 2020 - 4:35pm

    sand_puppy

    Status: Platinum Member

    Joined: Apr 13 2011

    Posts: 2368

    12+

    Passengers Removed from the S.S. PetriDish

    File this under the "I'm shocked.  Absolutely shocked, I say"

    "The Process Failed": US Breaks Cruise Ship Quarantine, Flies 13 Infected Americans To Omaha Facility

    Dr. Anthony Fauci, director of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases at the National Institutes of Health, told the USA TODAY editorial board and reporters Monday that the original idea to keep people safely quarantined on the ship wasn't unreasonable.  [My snarky comment:  Really?  Locking well people in ultra-close contact with the infected?]    Yet where the entire story falls on its face is that even with the quarantine process on the ship, virus transmission still occurred. One can only hope that there are proper precaution pathways in place to prevent transmission now that at least 13 infected cruise passengers are now on US soil.

    "The quarantine process failed," Fauci said. "I'd like to sugarcoat it and try to be diplomatic about it, but it failed. People were getting infected on that ship. Something went awry in the process of the quarantining on that ship. I don't know what it was, but a lot of people got infected on that ship."

    What might have gotten awry is that the virus is airborne and spread via the air conditioning system. ....

    Unfortunately, since the Diamond Princess was the single biggest incubator of coronavirus cases outside of Wuhan, and since nobody still seems to have a full grasp on how to contain the infection, we have a nagging feeling that this breach of quarantine will come back to haunt the US

     

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  • Mon, Feb 17, 2020 - 4:40pm

    wyrldtraveler

    wyrldtraveler

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    Joined: Feb 04 2020

    Posts: 65

    2+

    it's just a distraction

    Given the current situation, consider the possibilities that all of the below are merely distractions:

    • politics
    • entertainment
    • white collar crime
    • economics
    • finance
    • news
    • sports
    • technology

    The real issue is food.  Starving people are difficult to rule.  This is a community centered around wealth and economic prosperity, among other things.  Notice the crop losses, the culling of the pig population, the chicken population, the poisoning of the seas with plastic and radiation.

    Consider the dystopian possibility that the main events of our world are already scripted.  "All the world a stage..." wrote Shakespeare.  Was this what he really meant?

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  • Mon, Feb 17, 2020 - 4:42pm

    Myrto Ashe

    Myrto Ashe

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    Joined: Jan 25 2010

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    6+

    The economy crashes faster if people change their habits all at once than if a few die down the road

    Basically: if people start believing that disaster is around the corner, they stop doing much of what they are doing now, which leaves many people who provide these things out of a job: restaurants, tourism, a new car you may not be able to pay off, frivolous clothes and shoes, and gadgets, higher education perhaps, and so many more consumer items. It is best to keep everything going for as long as possible so people don't lose their jobs unnecessarily (after all, we've narrowly avoided other pandemics before). Of course if people started planning for "powerdown" - a way of life that honors the finite nature of our planet - slowly over time, or if there was an organized powerdown with retraining and reskilling for those who lose their jobs - we wouldn't be here now.

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  • Mon, Feb 17, 2020 - 4:56pm

    Barbara

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    Joined: Dec 15 2009

    Posts: 160

    1+

    What Japan is saying - it doesn't look good

    Here's what NHK (Japan news) is saying.  https://www3.nhk.or.jp/nhkworld/en/news/tags/82/  click coronavirus tab

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  • Mon, Feb 17, 2020 - 5:09pm

    vitalvision

    vitalvision

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    Joined: Dec 08 2015

    Posts: 12

    3+

    My Thanks and My Plan

    First I want to reiterate what most of us feel which is deep gratitude to Chris and Adam for their integrity, hard work, courage, willingness to lead us through this maze.

    And then thanks also to all the members who are sharing invaluable information from around the globe.

    I worked in dentistry (hygienist) for decades including when we used no masks or gloves.  I am in a FB group for dental hygienists and a hygienist from Canada said today they are already in shortage for masks and made some suggestions for working around it.  So much for calling my previous employer and trying to buy some masks!.  

    Today I went to our local Lowe's to get some masks after the suggestion from Chris on the Q and A call.  They were almost sold out.  The ones I was able to get are not even good enough for painting although it does say they are OK for dust mites (I thought those critters are extremely small- not sure how this adds up).

    I have seen posts here about using elderberry, colloidal silver, and homeopathy as well as some other things.  I investigated homeopathy in the 90's and found the exact problem mentioned.  It is very effective, but getting it right is very complicated.

    What I did find that is very effective, safe and easy to use are essential oils.  I have studied and used them since 1999,  I became certified as a Clinical Aromatherapist. I use essential oils every single day and credit my very good health and youthful looks to them.  I had my 75th birthday in December.  I made a new saying to celebrate copying from the "60 is the new 40" idea I came up with "75 is the new 25"!  Of course, its a joke but most people put me at about 60.  Thank you oils.

    So why all the background? I have used essential oils inside and out for, like I said, more than 20 years.  Did you know that it was plant oils that wiped out the Black Plague in the middle ages? Thieves admitted they rubbed certain spices on themselves so they could rob bodies and not get sick.  Marseilles Vinegar was created with spices soaked in vinegar and then given out to for gargling. That is credited by many for ending the plague. And of course, the history of plants as medicine goes back thousands of years.

    I am going to remain FDA compliant and not make any claims.  But there is plenty of qualified research to back up the effectiveness of essential oils for many situations.

    How will I use them? Diffuse in the air, gargle, ingest appropriately. Of yes, and those crappy masks I got at Lowe's?  I will make a spray of the oils I know certain creatures hate (but my body loves) and spray those masks so they become personal walking diffusers of potent plant oils,

    One caveat with essential oils.  Quality is everything.

    Dr. Dainel Peneol, a French medical doctor and co-author of the first modern reference book of essential oils, L'aromatherapie Exactment, is quoted as saying, "I'd rather have a single drop of genuine essential oil than a 55-gallon drum of junk product." So buyer beware. There is plenty of junk out there.  It is the wild west.

    If you know a reputable vendor/distributor of quality essential oils you may want to talk to them about EO's. If you want to know from me my website is www.HealthyImagesLLC.com.

    My belief; there is hope.

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  • Mon, Feb 17, 2020 - 5:28pm

    wyrldtraveler

    wyrldtraveler

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    Joined: Feb 04 2020

    Posts: 65

    new drug cocktail looks promising

    Remdesivir and chloroquine.

    For those who aren't drinkers, Gin was reportedly invented to help kill the taste of quinine, which was mixed in soda water for the British occupiers of colonial India.  Chloroquine is the anti-malarial patented to keep us all from becoming alcoholics in the jungle.

    https://www.newsy.com/stories/mix-of-new-and-old-drugs-could-help-treat-coronavirus/

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  • Mon, Feb 17, 2020 - 5:32pm

    Shuns

    Shuns

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    Joined: Feb 02 2020

    Posts: 3

    1+

    Safety mask resource

    I placed an order for N95 and P100 masks from safety company. They are likely to have plenty of stock.

    Disposable Particulate

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  • Mon, Feb 17, 2020 - 5:54pm

    TechGuy

    TechGuy

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    Joined: Oct 13 2008

    Posts: 308

    1+

    Stocking up on anti-viral meds?

    I see from Chris's video tonight that China is prescribing Arbidol (anti-viral agent) to suspected Covid-19 patients. This isn't available in the US (not FDA approved). Tamiflu is FDA approved but I have no idea if it would be effective since it for treating the Flu. Hopefully a Physician here can reply.  Or if Tamiflu isn't appropriate would would you recommend? This would be kept at home & only used if I get infected. I figure its would be best to avoid hospitals or any Medical centers when this breaks out. I would very like contact a physician at home via phone before taking it (presuming I can get in contact with a Physician if this is a full crisis).

    Presuming I do get infected, probably my only real option is to self-isolate & treatment at home, presuming that hospitals\med Centers would already be overwhelmed and probably useless for any treatment.

    That said, I have been stocking up on some OTC meds: Cough medicine, NSAIDs & Tylenol (Fever relief), Decongestants, presuming Medical care is overwhelmed and bascially in accessible to new patients.  I realize these would only treat the symptoms, and would not be a cure. Nor would an anti-viral drug be a cure either.

    I could possible do some basic tests at home Blood Oxygen levels via a Pulse Oximeter and a WBC via refractometer. Is there are any other tests I can perform at home that would be useful?

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  • Mon, Feb 17, 2020 - 6:13pm

    Tom Sammy

    Tom Sammy

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    Joined: Jan 30 2020

    Posts: 135

    2+

    what’s the chance that US cases are being covered up now?

    Theory on cover-up of case in NY.   Nothing really verifiable here, I am very skeptical.  What are the chances that this type of thing is actually occurring?

     

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  • Mon, Feb 17, 2020 - 6:17pm

    Sparky1

    Sparky1

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    Joined: Jul 21 2016

    Posts: 736

    3+

    Pandemic waves: "seeding" Covid-2019 via travelers, military; then self-sustaining community transmissions

    The CDC reported the first human-to-human (H2H) Covid-2019 transmission in the US on Jan. 30th. I wonder how many of the 15 confirmed US cases to date are from H2H transmission vs. "imported" from travelers passing through China or other Asian countries. Dr. Gabriel Leung's research projected the global infection rate would increase exponentially as the virus became self-spreading after initially being "seeded" in countries by Covid-2019 imported from travelers from China.

    We should expect the numbers of "seed" Covid-2019 cases to increase with the influx of repatriated US citizens from other countries and cruise ships, as well as from the military given that they've quarantined their at-risk personnel and their families/close contacts effective Feb. 2nd. These "seed" cases from travelers might be considered the first wave of infections. I think that first wave of "seed" infections is well underway, but is being minimized by the "authorities".

    A second, much larger wave is likely to be among close contacts with those "seed" travelers. I think that second wave has already begun and the public is being kept in the dark for the most part about these cases. Thereafter, I think a third wave of infections will come from incidental contacts among the general public. This wave will result in massive numbers of cases as the virus spreads throughout small to large geographic regions.

    For approximately 12 weeks from the estimated start date of the first Covid-2019 case (mid-Nov. 2019 - Feb. 1, 2020) there was no attempt to curtail exposure of thousands of military personnel, contractors, and their families from the coronavirus abroad. As of Feb. 2, those troops and close contacts that were potentially exposed in Covid-2019 hotspots were to be quarantined for 14 days here in the US and abroad. Regardless of whether 14 days is a sufficient time for quarantine, these asymptomatic and/or test negative military personnel and their contacts would be scheduled for release this week or soon after.

    I believe there's an information blackout concerning military Covid-2019 cases that would have already started presenting by now. This blackout would be imposed so as not to alert enemies of potential US military vulnerability, as well as to not alarm the public. Note that 14 military bases (that we know of) and other facilities are being used to quarantine repatriated US citizens.

    So along with universities, we might add military bases and communities in which they are located to the growing list of potential Covid-2019 hotspots. We should be on the lookout for reports from military insiders such as family members and health care workers in the days and weeks ahead as this virus spreads.

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  • Mon, Feb 17, 2020 - 6:38pm

    thc0655

    Status: Platinum Member

    Joined: Apr 27 2010

    Posts: 2025

    9+

    Police are routinely ordered to NOT reveal the truth about certain issues

    As a retired big city east coast police Sergeant I can tell you police are routinely ordered not to reveal to the public the truth about certain issues. It would not surprise me in the least if New York State, counties and cities are ordering police, fire and medical personnel to not reveal any facts or experiences related to the Wuhu Flu.

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  • Mon, Feb 17, 2020 - 6:53pm

    kunga

    kunga

    Status: Bronze Member

    Joined: Feb 26 2017

    Posts: 342

    Essential oils

    Hi, vital vision (MB),  I went to your website and you surely do not look 75;, I will be getting back to you about that 🐱

    Two things you probably already know: 1) Homeopathic remedies are often antidoted by volatile substances such as gasoline vapors, this includes volatile essential oils.  2)The plague was a bacterial, not a viral disease.  Essential oils could potentially strengthen the immune system, but I do not know if they would inactivate a virus already in the body.  Perhaps they inactivate viruses on surfaces.

    Please, can you include some more documented information or anecdotes ref. to clariy these points.  Thank you.

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  • Mon, Feb 17, 2020 - 6:55pm

    NotQuiteReady

    NotQuiteReady

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    Joined: Jan 29 2020

    Posts: 5

    3+

    Blanket censorship should be one of those red lines...

    If I start to see a generalised absence of updates from the truth tellers that I follow, then I'm taking it to mean that things are far worse than I thought and will immediately hit high alert.

    This is based on the basic premise that the censorship is designed to prevent me from gaining access to a broader body of knowledge which I use to develop my own understanding of what's happening. There's only one reason they would want that for me. High alert.

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  • Mon, Feb 17, 2020 - 7:09pm

    BillL

    BillL

    Status: Member

    Joined: Jan 15 2020

    Posts: 115

    You go gal!...

    Thanks for your post lady VV.

    For years we also have enjoyed the benefit's of EO's.

    One of my favorites is Eucalyptus, or Breathe oils mixed with water and ladled onto the lava rocks in our wood-fired sauna.  Extremely relaxing and cleansing.  I passed your site info on to my wife.  Perhaps she will be in touch.  Take care.

     

     

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  • Mon, Feb 17, 2020 - 7:16pm

    agitating prop

    agitating prop

    Status: Silver Member

    Joined: May 28 2009

    Posts: 355

    More on Epoch Times

    Trump administration

    According to BuzzFeed News, The Epoch Times is known as "one of the staunchest defenders of Donald Trump's presidency."[4] The paper has championed Trump's Spygate conspiracy theory in its news coverage and advertising, and the Epoch Media Group's Edge of Wonder videos on YouTube have spread the right-wing, pro-Trump QAnon conspiracy theory.[7]

    The Edge of Wonder hosts, according to The Daily Dot, "embrace QAnon completely" even though "almost nothing QAnon has foretold has actually taken place."[64] An NBC News report found that the Edge of Wonder hosts have been creative director and chief photo editor at The Epoch Times, and the newspaper promoted Edge of Wonder videos in dozens of Facebook posts through 2019.[7] The hosts and the newspaper's publisher deny that they are currently affiliated.[7][65][66]

    In a response to a BuzzFeed report about The Epoch Times' coverage of Trump, The Epoch Times editor-in-chief Jasper Fakkert wrote in a letter to readers: "We see the Trump administration's efforts to change socialist policies in America, as well as set policies to counter infiltration and subversion by China, as remarkable reversals from past policies, and sincere efforts that, if fully realized, will benefit America and the world as a whole."[4][5]

    In April 2018, The Epoch Times publisher Stephen Gregory and editor-in-chief Jasper Fakkert reported a third-hand claim that Donald Trump reads The Epoch Times every day and "it's the one newspaper that he believes to be a truthful and correct paper."[4][67]

    In September 2018, The Epoch Times photographer Samira Bouaou broke White House protocol and handed Trump a folder during an official event.

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  • Mon, Feb 17, 2020 - 7:27pm

    Sparky1

    Sparky1

    Status: Bronze Member

    Joined: Jul 21 2016

    Posts: 736

    2+

    What are the chances of a NY cover-up of Covid-2019 cases? My unscientific guess: near 100%

    Given the shear population numbers, diversity and travel habits of NYC, let alone the rest of the state, I think it is extremely unlikely that there are NO confirmed Covid-2019 cases and only about 16 tested cases in total. These figures make no sense and run counter to statistical probability even given what little we know about this virus.

    I think it is entirely plausible that emergency and medical personnel have been advised not to report or share information about potential or confirmed Covid-2019 cases.  That approach would be completely consistent with the controlled drip-drip-drip flow of information from WHO, CDC, government and other health "authorities" who seem to fear potential panic spread (which threatens global trade) more than pandemic spread (which threatens global lives). These authorities have consistently downplayed and outright denied viable information and research until it becomes so obvious to the masses that they reluctantly, belatedly and only partially modify their positions and guidance.

     

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  • Mon, Feb 17, 2020 - 7:30pm

    agitating prop

    agitating prop

    Status: Silver Member

    Joined: May 28 2009

    Posts: 355

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    Reread Dave Fairtex.

    Among the foreign (predominantly Western) Friends of Falun Gong, we find the likes of Mark Palmer of Freedom House. Freedom House is a quasi-intelligence front created by the CIA-connected Open Society Institute of elite George Soros. In addition to Palmer, Freedom House has counted among its top management the former CIA Director James Woolsey, neocons Bernie Aronson and Diana Negroponte, super elite Zbigniew Brzezinski, former Clinton National Security Advisor Anthony Lake, Clinton Commerce Secretary Stuart Eizenstat, and the late Congressman Tom Lantos and his wife.

    This is what I was referring to. Falun Gong and Epoch Times are spooky as Hell. They support and push Q-anon! LOL. That's hilarious. They are pro Yankee militarist deep state. And, btw, I have been down rabbit holes you can't begin to imagine. Have been trying to get the scoop on Falun Gong for years. Felt there was something hinkey about them.

    I have no love at all for the Chinese government. It doesn't mean that I appreciate crap information about them. You are entitled to your opinions, Dave...but not your facts.

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  • Mon, Feb 17, 2020 - 8:18pm

    chloecasey

    chloecasey

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    Joined: Dec 25 2008

    Posts: 26

    1+

    SAS Masks

    I don't need any more masks but I went to their site out of curiosity. If you go to their online store, all their particulate masks are "out of stock".

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  • Mon, Feb 17, 2020 - 8:32pm

    ao

    ao

    Status: Platinum Member

    Joined: Feb 04 2009

    Posts: 1243

    political implications of the corona virus

    Could the coronavirus pandemic drastically alter the 2020 election? Democrat cities are the most likely outbreak hubs

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  • Mon, Feb 17, 2020 - 9:14pm

    wyrldtraveler

    wyrldtraveler

    Status: Member

    Joined: Feb 04 2020

    Posts: 65

    1+

    Reply To: political implications of the corona virus

    Given that elections are mass-gatherings, they could be 'delayed' until the end of the 'current emergency' on public health and safety grounds.

    The last time the USA had a crisis of this possible magnitude was 1933.  That 'emergency' has never ended, nor has the 'emergency' which started what we call the Korean War, nor has what we call WWII.  The last time I looked, there were at least 4 active 'emergencies' in the US to justify extraordinary actions taken by the Executive branch of the government.

    Electronic voting will either be hacked or disallowed based on the debacle in the Iowa primary.

    The 2020 election may well be the Election That Never Was.

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  • Mon, Feb 17, 2020 - 9:18pm

    davefairtex

    Status: Member

    Joined: Sep 03 2008

    Posts: 2088

    7+

    more falun gong

    I haven't done a deep dive into falun gong, but I have to say, they don't sound like horrible people.

    Independently of who their "friends" are (that you find objectionable), do you have actual evidence of core beliefs they hold that you find spooky?  They are pretty up front about what they believe, as I recall.  Their leader gives all sorts of speeches as to what their core beliefs are.  I scanned a few of them.  That's why I'm not a joiner.  But I don't think they deserve to get tossed into prisons and have their organs harvested.  Same with the Muslims in Xinjiang.  No interest in being a Muslim either, but - again - not right to toss them into camps by the millions.  [If you find it spooky that FG does a group meditation when a bell rings at 6pm, what must you feel when Muslims pray 5 times a day to the sounding of a horn?]

    If you're going to do a Falun Gong takedown, providing a List-O-Friends doesn't do it for me.  After all, KKK leaders like Trump.  Communists like Bernie, and Osama Bin Laden worshipped Mohammed.  That doesn't mean Trump is a KKK member, or that Bernie is a Communist, or that everyone that worships Mohammed is like Osama Bin Laden.

    Gasping about Spygate doesn't do it for me either.  Its pretty clear that's roughly what happened - the 4 FISA warrants were used against Papadapolous to get two-hop electronic information (emails, texts, both historical and real time - everything NSA collects, or has ever collected) from everyone in Trump's campaign - by the Obama admin.  That's using our intel agencies to spy on a rival campaign under the guise of "investigating russian collusion".  Human spies are a red herring.  Its the NSA feed they wanted.  And got.  That's Spygate.

    Q-anon, I'm not familiar.  Heard the world, but - perhaps that's a rabbit hole you went down that I didn't.  You'd have to provide me with specifics as to what Falun Gong supports about q-anon, rather than just the general statement.

    And also - getting down to specifics again - which information about the CCP do you find to be crap?  Organ harvesting/transplant tourism?  Xinjiang concentration camps?  Repression of Falun Gong?  Lying about the corona virus - causes, infections, and deaths?

    If you get the sense I'm looking for specific evidence rather than general statements of "they have bad friends and are spooky people", well, you'd be right on target.

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  • Mon, Feb 17, 2020 - 11:01pm

    agitating prop

    agitating prop

    Status: Silver Member

    Joined: May 28 2009

    Posts: 355

    Dave Fairtax

    Its important to get info on the virus from persons and institutes who don't have an axe to grind.

    I am sure many of the Falung Gong are lovely people -- but that's immaterial.

    Though I wouldn't call Chris apolitical, the information he provides about the virus is. I have a sense he can spot conflict of interest in mainstream and alternative media as well.

    If you would like to lard on more contempt please contact me through a pm.

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  • Mon, Feb 17, 2020 - 11:03pm

    dtrammel

    Status: Silver Member

    Joined: May 03 2011

    Posts: 800

    1+

    Ice - No Not The Border Patrol

    I keep a bag of ice in my top loading freezer but that's just for odd occasions. It strikes me that ice will be very important if you need to cool down an infected person's fever. Either in cold packs applied to their body, or ice baths in the tub. Its a resource that is easily made in a freezer and stored if you plan for a bit of space.

    Something else, if all you have is a standard refrigerator, with a small upper freezer unit, now might be the time to buy a small top loading freezer (5-7 cubic foot is ideal). They can be bought for less than $175. You can save a bunch of money with buying food when on sale or in large units if you have one. I regularly buy large roasts when they are on sale, and carve them up into stew meat to freeze for later. Ice too.

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  • Mon, Feb 17, 2020 - 11:11pm

    dtrammel

    Status: Silver Member

    Joined: May 03 2011

    Posts: 800

    Upthread - Sharon Astyk on the election

    Sharon's FB post on the election is up thread. Good analysis of the Democratic side.

    https://www.peakprosperity.com/why-covid-19-demands-our-full-attention/#comment-340355

    I worry what Trump might do if he looks like he is going to lose the election and the virus is doing a lot of chaos to the economy. If he declares an emergency, who could stop him?

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  • Mon, Feb 17, 2020 - 11:37pm

    Nairobi

    Nairobi

    Status: Bronze Member

    Joined: Feb 05 2020

    Posts: 289

    2+

    "Out of Stock" notices on products

    I am trying to dig into what kinds of items have gone out of stock in the US already as a result of the industrial closures in China.

    We know for example that N95 facemasks are almost impossible to find. And there have been a few anecdotal stories about auto parts, electronics and fabrics that are causing plant shut downs outside of China.

    But what else is disappearing due to the nature of just-in-time delivery and how critical are the shortages? There seem to be a few companies producing data but I don't see any information that is freely accessible.

    The reason I got curious was because the affordable blood Oximeter I bought last week is now out of stock so I could not get a second one for my sister.

    Wow, things are moving fast.

    Chris was right. Preparations needed to be done yesterday before everyone else caught on and some important items vanished from the shelves.

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  • Mon, Feb 17, 2020 - 11:47pm

    dtrammel

    Status: Silver Member

    Joined: May 03 2011

    Posts: 800

    1+

    Speaking of Out of Stock - Quarantine Gowns

    Speaking of Out of Stock items. I hadn’t really thought what I was going to use if I had to quarantine someone. I happened to catch some tv last night and saw a medical gown that tied in the back and had sleeves. Thought that would work.

    https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07G7HMCLD/

    I noticed a lot of them are out of stock, across most of Amazon. Got the last two boxes of these. Seems like you’ll pay between $1 to 2 per unit.

    Get your stuff quickly. Along with gowns I grabbed a uv light sterilizer and an oximeter. Not sure how long they will be there.

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  • Tue, Feb 18, 2020 - 12:17am

    Nairobi

    Nairobi

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    Joined: Feb 05 2020

    Posts: 289

    3+

    Loathing of the words "Made in China"

    Thanks dtrammel. We will likely be hearing a lot of stories like yours in the coming days and some of the items we think of as ordinary might surprise us. Like toilet paper shortages. Feels like Venezuela all of a sudden. I was also trying to buy an old fashioned thermometer. The kind that does not need a battery. Four pharmacies later and I still don't have one.

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  • Tue, Feb 18, 2020 - 12:30am

    dtrammel

    Status: Silver Member

    Joined: May 03 2011

    Posts: 800

    4+

    We Have No Idea

    The last job I worked, I ran a high capacity saw. It was made by a French company. Every time it broke a part, we had to have it flown next day air from Europe. Not sure if the guy who authorized to buy that machine realized that, lol.

    I think we are about to find just how many products under their label have "Parts Made in China". Its not going to be pretty.

    Wall Street is praying this gets resolved in one, maybe two business quarters, and then its back to looting the World for profit. I don't think its going to happen.Maybe this puts a spike into Amazon and Walmart. Maybe more local and American made products will reappear. I can hope can't I?

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  • Tue, Feb 18, 2020 - 1:55am

    Matties

    Matties

    Status: Member

    Joined: Jan 30 2020

    Posts: 160

    1+

    COVIR 2019 = SARS

    A simple reading is enough to not be surprised.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_the_SARS_outbreak

    Hitting the health-care workers.
    reporting 305 cases including 105 health-care workers

    super-spreaders
    The first super-spreader, Zhou Zuofen, a fishmonger, checked-in to the Sun Yat-sen Memorial Hospital in Guangzhou on January 31, where he infected 30 nurses and doctors. The virus soon spread to nearby hospitals.[5]

    health-care workers spreading the virus.
    Dr. Liu is believed to have been a SARS super-spreader: twenty-three other Metropole guests developed SARS, including seven from the ninth floor.

    Going vertical
    - twenty-three other Metropole guests developed SARS, including seven from the ninth floor.
    - On state E of the Amoy Gardens housing estate. One theory speculated that the virus was spread by airborne transmission, through dried up U-shaped P-traps in the drainage system which a maritime breeze blew into the estate's balconies and stairwell ventilation. It was confirmed that the virus spread via droplets, but this later outbreak made officials question the possibility that the virus could be spread through the air.

    SARS spreading by airplane
    the World Health Organization issued a global health alert for SARS as it became clear the disease was being spread by global air travel.

    Chinese silence
    - A Chinese health specialist admitted at a press conference of not informing the public early enough about the outbreak.
    - In the news conference chaired by Gao Qiang several hours earlier, the PRC admitted that in Beijing there were more than 300 cases, as opposed to the previous figure of only 37. One day later the figure had increased to 407. Chinese officials also admitted to major underreporting of cases, which were attributed to bureaucratic ineptitude.

    Chinese firing high placed people:
    eijing's mayor Meng Xuenong and the health minister of the PRC Zhang Wenkang were replaced respectively by Wang Qishan from Hainan and the former deputy health minister Gao Qiang. They were the first two high-rank officials in the PRC to be dismissed because of the fallout of the epidemic

    Warnings it will stay
    Hong Kong health officials warned that SARS had spread so far domestically and abroad that it was here to stay.

    Global alerts
    On April 11, the World Health Organization issued a global health alert for SARS

    Causing heart attacks
    On March 29, Dr. Urbani died in Bangkok of a massive heart attack.

    Not seen yet but to expected:
    Poor hygiene and a lack of adequate trash disposal seemed to have hastened the spread of the deadly disease.
    SARS retreating in Asia but a flare up in Canada.

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  • Tue, Feb 18, 2020 - 2:14am

    davefairtex

    Status: Member

    Joined: Sep 03 2008

    Posts: 2088

    4+

    axes to grind

    agitating prop-

    Literally everyone has an axe to grind.  I learned that in undergrad history.  For instance, what you call "larding on contempt" I call "responding to your previous post."  Axes, axes everywhere.  Another word is: perspective.  Everyone has their own perspective.

    I read articles from SCMP, even though its 50% in the bag for the CCP.  I also read articles from HKFP, which may well be a CIA-funded organization.  Heck, I even read WAPO articles, now and then, even though it is funded by Amazon/Bezos, and thus - indirectly - by the CIA again.

    Everyone has an axe to grind.  It also doesn't mean they are wrong.  You just have to adjust for the perspective.

    As for FG members being lovely people - I haven't a clue.  I don't know anyone who is in FG.

    Last thing: if you want a PM response, feel free to initiate by sending me one first.

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  • Tue, Feb 18, 2020 - 5:14am

    Matties

    Matties

    Status: Member

    Joined: Jan 30 2020

    Posts: 160

    1+

    Matties said:

    曾錚 Jennifer Zeng
    @jenniferatntd
    Yanyi Wang(also Wang Yanyi), director of #Wuhan Institute of Virology, issued a notice to researchers on Jan. 2 to pass on telephone message by #China's Nation Health Commission, forbidding anyone to release info of #COVID19. Original and English translation here. #Coronavirus

    Image

    Image

    4:10 PM · Feb 17, 2020·Twitter Web App

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  • Tue, Feb 18, 2020 - 5:28am

    Dwight Walker

    Dwight Walker

    Status: Member

    Joined: Feb 01 2020

    Posts: 1

    1+

    Naming

    I've seen elsewhere a statement that SARS-COV-2 is the name of the virus and COVID-19 the name of the disease. Similar to HIV and Aids.

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  • Tue, Feb 18, 2020 - 7:20am

    wyrldtraveler

    wyrldtraveler

    Status: Member

    Joined: Feb 04 2020

    Posts: 65

    1+

    re Bill Gates Africa mortality estimates are optimistic

    The question nobody seems to be asking themselves is why the guy who became mega-rich selling computer software is suddenly an authority on pandemics.

    I might be a great lawyer, but that doesn't mean I should be commenting on brain surgery.  Or that anyone should listen to me.

    Tinfoil hat wearing participants may suggest that he had a hand in the current outbreak.

    We may never know, but we might want to start looking that direction.

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  • Tue, Feb 18, 2020 - 11:06am

    dtrammel

    Status: Silver Member

    Joined: May 03 2011

    Posts: 800

    Welcome Dwight

    I’ve seen elsewhere a statement that SARS-COV-2 is the name of the virus and COVID-19 the name of the disease. Similar to HIV and Aids.

    Welcome to the community Dwight. Yes, we caught that right after they announced it, though many of us have been following this since the beginning and sometimes tend to go with older names for both. You'll get used to it.

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  • Tue, Feb 18, 2020 - 12:03pm

    agitating prop

    agitating prop

    Status: Silver Member

    Joined: May 28 2009

    Posts: 355

    1+

    to Dave Fairtax

    Dave,

    Thank you for your respectful response.

    I understand the axe to grind so I end up reading a lot -- and between the lines. I trust one mainstream source in Canada...sort of and that's the Toronto Star. I have a subscription to the Globe and Mail and am regularly astounded by the lack of depth and the narrow ideological range expressed there. They do give commenters free rein though, so I get a better overview.

    Right now, I think it is best to avoid publications whose main purpose is to demonize China as that angle is going to affect the science behind the coverage of the pandemic. And if Epoch Times is a front for American neo-cons and neo-liberals, we should be particularly guarded.

    We are in an era, where the Anglo-American axis of power is in the process of undermining democracy in Europe and Asia to gain geo-strategic advantage.  There is propaganda serving this purpose everywhere, particularly online.

    I understand very well the suspicion of China and think it's warranted but I want my information about the technicalities as clean as possible.

     

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  • Wed, Feb 19, 2020 - 1:13pm

    Tina S

    Status: Member

    Joined: Mar 25 2015

    Posts: 15

    Another perspective on essentail oils

    I understand that many people use and like essential oils but there are some reasons to be cautious regardless of the quality of the product.  I tend to agree with the perspective of a highly experienced herbalist in NE Oregon, April Graham, who has a post on her website - wildwoodapothecary.com - about the down sides of EOs.  She is more interested in seeing people use tinctures which use the whole plant (when appropriate) and mostly importantly the extraction process is slow, allowing all the properties of the plant material into the tincture.  Not to speak of the tremendous amount of waste that goes into making EOs.  Just putting this out there as it's good to see pros and cons of any potential remedy.  And the point that EOs may deactivate any homeopathic remedies.

    Just occurred to me to wonder how traditional Chinese medicine docs are addressing this outbreak?  Anyone heard anything about that?  Thanks all for such great info and discussion.  Learning a lot!

     

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  • Wed, Feb 19, 2020 - 2:21pm

    pawch

    pawch

    Status: Member

    Joined: Feb 06 2020

    Posts: 25

    ACE Inhibitors

    I think an ARB might be slightly better. That’s what my post was all about.

    COVID News You Can Use

    Time for a study?

    This has been known since 2005 and yet there’s been no study on either the blockers or the inhibitors. I think Dr. Martenson might like the diagram in the below article.

    https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Joseph_S_Peiris/publication/7679870_Good_ACE_bad_ACE_do_battle_in_lung_injury_SARS/links/54aa33ec0cf256bf8bb96451/Good-ACE-bad-ACE-do-battle-in-lung-injury-SARS.pdf?origin=publication_detail

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  • Wed, Feb 19, 2020 - 2:53pm

    pawch

    pawch

    Status: Member

    Joined: Feb 06 2020

    Posts: 25

    pawch said:

    "It has been suggested that ARBs can mediate their action through increasing angiotensin II (Ang II) availability to bind to the beneficial angiotensin type 2 receptor (AT2R), thus leading to unopposed AT2R stimulation.

    So long story short, ARBs do not block the gene or the enzyme ACE2.  They block the receptor for Angiotensin 2 (AT1R: which is produced by ACE, not ACE2).

    I know, it is crazy to sort out. But trust me, ACE inhibitors and ARBs have nothing to do with fighting coronavirus infection."

    Response:

    They have everything to do with avoiding a fatal outcome from SARS or the ninja virus. ARBs block angiotensin II at AT1s, decreasing the likelihood of a cytokine storm. These two viruses saturate the surface sites of circulating angiotensin II type 2 receptors (ACE2) thereby blocking their beneficial effect of inactivating Angiotensin II. Everything else you post is correct.

    https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Joseph_S_Peiris/publication/7679870_Good_ACE_bad_ACE_do_battle_in_lung_injury_SARS/links/54aa33ec0cf256bf8bb96451/Good-ACE-bad-ACE-do-battle-in-lung-injury-SARS.pdf?origin=publication_detail

    COVID News You Can Use

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  • Wed, Feb 19, 2020 - 3:53pm

    pawch

    pawch

    Status: Member

    Joined: Feb 06 2020

    Posts: 25

    ACE2

    Aloha Greendoc,

    You and the Claire have posted a web link to a 2004 study showing no ethnic variation in ACE2.

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15331509

    There are other more recent studies on this that support a stronger expression in Han Chinese

    https://www.intechopen.com/books/hla-and-associated-important-diseases/association-between-hla-gene-polymorphism-and-the-genetic-susceptibility-of-sars-infection

    https://bmcinfectdis.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1471-2334-6-106

    It would certainly explain the SARS 1 and 2 (ninja virus) ethnic case breakdown

     

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  • Wed, Feb 19, 2020 - 7:13pm

    David Gardner

    David Gardner

    Status: Member

    Joined: Feb 15 2020

    Posts: 3

    Products from China

    When stocking up our homes for the future, aside from the obvious that we already know like Toilet paper and prescriptions, does anyone have a comprehensive list of items that will run out on shelves in a month or two?

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  • Wed, Feb 19, 2020 - 7:30pm

    kunga

    kunga

    Status: Bronze Member

    Joined: Feb 26 2017

    Posts: 342

    1+

    Affected products

    David, basically everything.  One video mentioned plastics, this includes many food products that won't have packaging available.

    theorganicprepper.com/tariff-war-will-these-items

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  • Thu, Feb 20, 2020 - 3:56pm

    dude59

    Status: Member

    Joined: Feb 22 2009

    Posts: 17

    USA Cases

    Here in Las Vegas we had five people isolated two weeks ago. ALL information since then has been embargoed, using HIPPA (prevention of disclosure of patient information). I strongly suspect that important information is being withheld based on 'personal' information.

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  • Thu, Feb 20, 2020 - 5:31pm

    Pandabonium

    Pandabonium

    Status: Bronze Member

    Joined: Aug 30 2008

    Posts: 42

    Shocked

    Yet another "Cursed Liner"...

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  • Thu, Feb 20, 2020 - 6:43pm

    Pandabonium

    Pandabonium

    Status: Bronze Member

    Joined: Aug 30 2008

    Posts: 42

    Heart rate

    Yes, I met with a cardiologist yesterday on  business unrelated to this pandemic, and he checked my pulse right off.  The current medical training says a resting heart rate between 60 and 100 bpm is OK, but that is based on very, very old thinking.  Much lower - like down to  60 is better.  Sorry no time to look up supporting data for you.  Mine is usually around mid 70s and it may take months to get it to 60, but I'll keep working at it.

    My way of getting it lower has been a plant based diet and lots of exercise - I do a very minimum of 40 minutes of aerobic exercise every day, usually 60 minutes, and working toward a goal of 90 minutes a day which the peer reviewed literature shows is the actual optimal amount.   Why is only 20 to 30 minutes a day recommended by MDs?   Because, as with diet, they are recommending what they believe people are actually willing to do rather than what the science shows is what should be done.  Trials with heart rate slowing meds (which also may lower blood pressure which might not be what a person wants to do) actually show added life expectancy with lower heart rates.  Being thrifty,  I'll keep riding the bike and walking 🙂    Cheers.

     

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  • Thu, Feb 20, 2020 - 9:11pm

    ao

    ao

    Status: Platinum Member

    Joined: Feb 04 2009

    Posts: 1243

    1+

    some comments with regards to heart rate

    I've always been amused by Neil Armstrong's quote:

    "I believe that every human has a finite number of heartbeats. I don't intend to waste any of mine running around doing exercises."

    That being said, while Neil may have had a point from one perspective (that of having a finite number of heart beats, to be used judiciously), I also think this was his way of jokingly protesting the mandatory exercise required of astronauts.

    The benefits of exercise not only taxing the aerobic mechanisms but also the anaerobic/lactic acid mechanisms and the phosphocreatine/ATP mechanisms as well as other systems ranging from the myofascial to lymphatic to autonomic nervous system, etc. are undeniable.  That being said, while the absence of training is definitely to be avoided, over-training has multiple risks as well.  Excessive aerobic training can have a variety of subtle detrimental effects including lowering immune system function and overproduction of free radicals that can increase one's risk for cancers.

    I don't necessarily agree that peer reviewed literature shows that 90 minutes daily is the optimal amount.  Optimum levels will vary according to genetics, muscle fiber ratios, lung capacity to body size/weight ratios, VO2 max, heart size to body size/weight ratios, cardiac efficiency, training intensity, training periodicity, micro-, meso-, and macro-cycles of training, recovery capacity, etc., etc., etc.  Training correctly does serve the purpose of lowering your resting heart rate and since one spends a considerably greater period of time not exercising intensely as compared to exercising intensely, the net effect should be to lower the number of heart beats per year and thereby, hopefully add to one's life span, at least from a cardiac "engine" perspective.  My resting pulse is in the 50s and will get as low as the upper 40s in a down-regulated, resting state and I'm 66.  Physical training will lower it but adjunctive psycho-energetic training including breathing meditation and qi gung will lower it even further.

    But just as important as a lower heart rate is a uniform, coherent heart rate.  This state can be achieved with other types of training such as Heart Math  (https://www.heartmath.com/).   In fact, given the noticeably up-regulated state of a number of posters on this site related to the corona virus issue, it would probably behoove some of them to pursue this type of training.  Too much work and not enough play is not good for PPers.  Crankiness typically reflects a stressed state of the body-mind.

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  • Sun, Feb 23, 2020 - 10:39pm

    Gscarb01

    Gscarb01

    Status: Member

    Joined: Feb 24 2020

    Posts: 1

    Solutions to preventing worse case scenario

    In addition to looking at blocking the virus - we could also look at solutions to immunomodulation and lessening the cytokine storm. What are your thoughts on this? I saw a report that IL2 and IL6 are the two cytokines which were seen most elevated in critical cases in a Chinese study (small sample). I am wondering about the potential for use of one of the most popular natural remedies at the moment - CBD - to potentially suppress the cytokine storm. There are numerous papers showing CBD effects on multiple cytokines (some using Animal asthma models) - and what about prophylactic high dose vitamin C and Vitamin D?

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  • Fri, Apr 17, 2020 - 5:28am

    PamelaParker

    PamelaParker

    Status: Member

    Joined: Apr 17 2020

    Posts: 2

    Responding to the current COVID-19 pandemic

    Pandemic is revealing that benevolence may, in some cases, have a place in commercial business without the government needing to exercise its compulsory licensing rights. FDA releases a statement saying it's now received a total of 127 reports of seizure or other neurological symptoms, such as fainting or tremors, that occurred after vaping between 2010 and 2019. https://www.addictionrehabcenters.com/eating-disorders/

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