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    • Sat, Jan 26, 2013 - 06:28am

      #61

      Travlin

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      Posts: 524

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      That’s very interesting

    [quote=treemagnet]

    What really takes me back is the growing numbers of people I talk to that range in opinions from "somethings not right" to "we're doomed"…..but it ends there.  I can't count how many who have stated to me that they have said "this won't end well" or such to their husband/wife and it ends right there.  Like acknowleding "it" is in fact, a plan in and of itself. 

    I see post after post of people who take the optimistic side of every lie given to them – I suspect they universally have a good life jobs/pension, etc and just want it to continue, regardless.

    Edited by Travlin
     [/quote]

    Hi Treehugger

    It’s good to see you.  When your friends and neighbors in a small town on the plains tell you "somethings not right", "we're doomed", or "this won't end well", that’s important.  These are hard working, level headed people with good sense.  They don’t spook easily.  When they lose confidence in the system you know things are getting bad.  I would be very interested in any more you can tell us about what people are saying, and what you make of this.

    Unfortunately, there are two big steps after realizing there is a problem.  Next you have to indentify what it is.  Then you need to do something about it.  In this case indentifying is particularly hard since the causes are complex and we are bombarded with propaganda.  It was a slow process for me, even with good help.  We can’t all live in the fast lane like you.  Let’s hope they have time to catch up.

    I think you nailed it about the optimists.

    Go easy on the dex dude.  wink

    Travlin

    • Sat, Jan 26, 2013 - 12:27am

      #60

      Travlin

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      Well done JMC

    JMC

    Your argument is backed by knowledge and presented well.  You made it clear why you see things as you do.  I agree with most of your positions, and we have already discussed the other parts enough.  I hope others found our dialogue useful.

    I’d like to offer some friendly advice.  This is not to be patronizing, I am certainly no oracle, but I want to pass on a couple of tips I learned through hard experience.  Your awareness level is more advanced than most, and that can backfire on you.  We sometimes have to be careful to be effective.  You can help a lot of people see what’s going on.  I hope you do.

    It is important to avoid giving our opposition a way to discredit us.

    Don’t demonize Obama.  There are plenty of people doing that already for political gain.  You don’t want to be written off as one of them.  He is just the current figurehead.  I think you realize these issues precede him.  Much broader forces are at work here with many people involved.  I don’t see this as a plot by a small group of evil people.  It is a convergence of  powerful trends guided by people acting in their self-interest.  Both parties share the blame and neither is going to save us.

    Avoid the appearance of using what others would see as propaganda tricks.  That’s what got us started here in the first place.  You have convinced me you are sincere and have grounds for your perception.  I did not write you off without hearing you out.  Many people would.

    Don’t make too much of something.  This one is really hard.  Once your trust is broken where do you draw the line?  How deep does the problem go?  It is easy to read meanings into things that don’t apply.  And a good way to be dismissed.  Vigilance is a fine line and easy to cross.

    Let me offer a belated welcome to the forums.  Though you are new to posting here you understand how we try to engage in civil and helpful dialogues.  This is what helps us all broaden our perspectives and learn.  I hope we see more of you in the forums and groups.

    Best wishes

    Travlin

    • Fri, Jan 25, 2013 - 04:29am

      #57

      Travlin

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      Yes

    [quote=MarkM]

    In the end , I think we are on the same side, with slightly different angles of view.

    [/quote]

    Yes.  And we need a lot more of us.

    Travlin

    • Fri, Jan 25, 2013 - 04:25am

      #56

      Travlin

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      Let’s clarify

    JMC

    We are actually in agreement on the major points.  As I said in post 53 the militarization of federal agencies and local police is well underway.  Yes, we already have a heavily armed national security force, as you say.  And elements of it are out of hand.  The TSA has conducted “test” checkpoints at bus stations and rail depots.  Their VIPER teams have even participated in checkpoints on highways.  What are they preparing for?  I find these trends downright frightening. 

    Remember this really took off under Bush, with Republicans controlling both houses of Congress, in 2001.  I had serious reservations about Obama, but hoped he would turn out okay.  His actions over the last four years have convinced me he is about as bad as Bush on civil liberties.  He just presents a slicker image.

    But I still think we need to be accurate in our discussions of these matters, if only to avoid giving our opposition a way to discredit us.

    Regarding the video statement, I have four questions for you.
    *  Do you really expect us to believe that while running for president for the first time, he would openly say he was going to build a heavily armed civilian national security force?
    *  As a campaign promise to get elected?
    *  How many votes was that going to get?
    *  How does that make sense?

     [quote=jmcsd]
    As far as your discussion goes, it is accurate, however you overlook the shift back to our military not being sufficient to ensure our security at about 16:45 where he then makes the quote I referenced.
    [/quote]

    It’s like I said post 53.  It’s how you perceive his use of the word “security”.  I hear him saying that military might alone cannot provide national security.  We also need more diplomacy, more civilians working beneficially with people in other nations, and improving conditions for people at home.  That is what he refers to at 16:45 when he says, “we cannot continue to rely only on our military”.  Not the creation of a federal police force.

    [quote=Travlin]
    I expect that JMC is repeating something he read without looking into this further, but we all need to watch out for this kind of thing because sadly it has become accepted practice.
    [/quote]

    I did not intend to give offense, in fact I went out of my way not to.  To be precise, taking quotes out of context is a common underhanded tactic in politics, and I didn’t want to imply that you had intentionally done that.  I was giving you the benefit of the doubt by saying you probably had seen this somewhere and assumed it was correct without watching the relevant part of the video to see the context.  My message to everyone was not to fall for propaganda tricks when we repeat information.  I think your overall view is correct.  I just don’t think this example says what you seem to think it says.  Let’s have no hard feelings and move on.

    So what did Obama really mean?  Everyone is free to watch the video and decide for themselves.  As Mark Twain said, “It’s differences of opinion that make a horse race.” 

    With respect.

    Travlin

     

    VIPER  http://articles.latimes.com/2011/dec/20/nation/la-na-terror-checkpoints-20111220

    • Thu, Jan 24, 2013 - 06:31pm

      #53

      Travlin

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      How you perceive “security”

    [quote=MarkM]

    It seems to me that Obama is speaking of two different things here. Service in the forms of Peace Corps, Americorps, as well as a Civilian Security Force that is" just as well funded and just as well trained as the military". What am I missing?

    [/quote]

    MarkM

    What you are missing is how you perceive his use of the word “security”.  He is saying that “security” is more than military might.  It also rests on improving conditions for people at home, civilians interacting beneficially with people in other nations, and more emphasis on diplomacy.  That is not a federal police force.  I agree that was empty campaign rhetoric, and there is no way it can be funded equal to the military. 

    On the other hand your post 42 was right on, and a real cause for concern.  The choice of words in the request were right out of Orwell’s 1984.  But note who the 7,000 rifles were for. “This solicitation is specific to law enforcement who almost exclusively work within and along the borders of the United States.”  It was not for DHS in general.  However, the arming of federal and local police with military weapons and training has been a trend for at least 15 years.  Obama didn’t start it, but he appears to show no interest in stopping it.

    Travlin

    • Thu, Jan 24, 2013 - 06:58am

      #49

      Travlin

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      That’s a very misleading quotation

    [quote=jmcsd]

    BHO, Colorado Springs, CO on July 2, 2008:

    "We cannot continue to rely only on our military in order to achieve the national security objectives that we've set. We've got to have a civilian national security force that's just as powerful, just as strong, just as well-funded." [YouTube, 7/2/08]

    [/quote]

    If you listen to the speech he talked about the military and the importance of taking care of our troops.  Then at 13:50 he shifted to talking about non-military efforts to improve our country at home, and our support abroad.  He focused on civilian efforts like expanding AmeriCorps and the Peace Corps, ending with the quote above.  He was talking about things many members of this site have said we need to do.

    I am not a fan of Obama, but this site is dedicated to truthful discussion.  Taking that quote out of context looks like a deliberate effort to twist his meaning.  I expect that JMC is repeating something he read without looking into this further, but we all need to watch out for this kind of thing because sadly it has become accepted practice.

    AmeriCorps  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Americorps
    Peace Corps  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PeaceCorps

    Travlin

    See for yourself starting at 13:00
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Df2p6867_pw&eurl=http://volokh.com/posts/1216451854.shtml

     

    • Thu, Jan 24, 2013 - 05:54am

      #48

      Travlin

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      Thanks

    Thanks Mark.

    Travlin 

    • Thu, Jan 24, 2013 - 03:33am

      #46

      Travlin

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      Time stamp?

    [quote=jmcsd]

    BHO, Colorado Springs, CO on July 2, 2008:

    "We cannot continue to rely only on our military in order to achieve the national security objectives that we've set. We've got to have a civilian national security force that's just as powerful, just as strong, just as well-funded." [YouTube, 7/2/08]

    [/quote]

    JMC

    That is a 24 minute video.  Would you please provide a time for the quote?

    Travlin 

    • Wed, Jan 16, 2013 - 05:45am

      #2

      Travlin

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      The collapse of the middle class

    Hi Ao

    Before she became an Obama Girl, Elizabeth Warren did original research based on government statistics that rigorously documents declining middle class stability.

    Her article offers a brief introduction.
    http://harvardmagazine.com/2006/01/the-middle-class-on-the-html

    This video shows the graphs that back up her argument.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=akVL7QY0S8A

    Her book goes into more depth.
    http://www.amazon.com/The-Two-Income-Trap-ebook/dp/B003PJ6UKC/ref=tmm_kin_title_0?ie=UTF8&qid=1358313817&sr=8-7

    Travlin

    • Fri, Jan 11, 2013 - 04:08am

      #27

      Travlin

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      Bravo Nickbert

    [quote=nickbert]

    I can understand and sympathize with people who are uncomfortable with the reality of firearms, but quite frankly I refuse to give up my rights to accomodate someone else's insecurities.

    [/quote]

    Well said Nickbert

    Travlin 

Viewing 10 posts - 21 through 30 (of 440 total)