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    • Thu, Sep 29, 2011 - 09:27pm

      #15
      heffe

      heffe

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      Rebuttal to tictac and plato

    I will say, your opinion of "rags to riches" being the exception is completely bogus, based on my experience.  My parents lived in Compton.  I’ve lived in a couple ghettos.  My mom flipped burgers to pay for our school books, and the IRS confiscated our vehicles.  My father has lived in poverty almost his entire life.  Yet I make more money than I need, as does my brother.  My uncle, who dropped out of high school (and from the same dirt-poor family as my dad) worked his way to being the president of a large corporation.  Yeah, dude, we won the lottery, it had nothing to do with our work ethic.  That’s just insulting.  What we DID was work harder AND smarter than the people around us.  And we didn’t pay attention to nay-sayers.  We did this WITHOUT screwing people over.

     

    Wow, anything you forget to consider?  Maybe the economic situation?  All these people, including yourself and your brother, got wealthy during economic expansion.  You also havent considered the occurences required for all the success stories you had listed to happen. Im trying, Im trying hard, yet no opportunities have arisen. Your assumptions can be termed as ‘blaiming the victim’. 

    Among my fellow employees, there are MANY people that came from poor families.  Some of the guys have relatives in Appalachia living in plywood shacks.  The difference isn’t circumstance or birth right, it’s vision, sacrifice, and plain old hard work.

    More self serving rhetoric. Im sure you have a very specified range of choices, ignoring those examples where someone working hard doesn’t get anywhere. The last sentence is insulting, what a douche.  [Moderator’s note: *ahem*]  I know without a doubt my abilities far exceed 99% of the population, I am far smarter and far more motivated to better this world, yet those opportunities are far and few in between.  All your success stories neglect the era in which they occured, forgetting the ease of economic access of those times.

    You got rich friends?  Why aren’t you building relationships with them?  Find out what makes them tick, what businesses they’re in, and then make yourself into someone they want to bring in.  PROVE yourself indespensible, someone they need to help their businesses be successful.  Stop spending time with people that are going no where in life.  That one thing made a huge difference for me, as misery loves company.

    Well, one rich friend about went to jail for intent to sell cocaine, but his momma could afford a lawyer to get him out. Then his momma bought a building, payed for her son to go to school, and then gave that building to her son to run a bike shop. All of these are circumstancial occurences. I am more capable then this rich boy and yet he’s got the access I dont.  Im not trying to play the blame game, Im presenting the events as they unfold. And as far as working with them, I’d rather work with the local produce stand.  Rich folk tend to have a snobby disposition of which I cannot stand. 

       In fact, poverty brings a certain freedom, I know this from personal experience.

    Oh really?? Try having temporal lobe epilepsy with over $10,000 in medical bills with no help financially. I dont have very much freedom in poverty. I want to see my family, though I dont have the money to do so.  I try to save money to afford a trip, but with no medical insurance and a constant array of medical needs, I have never been able to ‘get my head out of water’.  My freedom is very limited due to this monetary economic paradigm.

    PS- "Greed and competition are not immutable human temperament; they are in fact, created and maintained by the kind of money we are using…."  This is flat-out wrong.  Greed and competition are evidence of the human condition, and pre-date any sort of money system.

    Wow, you have never studied anything regarding archeological evidence, or anthropology, or psychology?  The majority of hominid existence has been in the form of egalitarian, foraging tribes. Its only been in the last 1% of our existence that we developed city-states, monetary exchange, and organized group violence.

    Your still ignoring the statement by Lietier.  What he is describing is known as ‘artifical scarcity’ and this is a reference to plato’s uncritical analysis, as well.   Grocery stores throw away millions of pounds of food every year, simply because it spoils from not being purchased. There are approx. 5 million homeless in the US, while we have about 19 million vacant homes. We already have abundance of resources, but our monetary-market systems require scarcity to exist, even if its artifical scarcity.

    Lastly, whats most amusing about all this is my expertise in free market economics. I produce a high demand commodity that is a closer approximation of free markets than anyone here. I know about maintaining cost efficiency, managing time and resource allocation, managing distribution and communication, and everything about business fundamentals. I also know what its like to have ‘moochers’; non-producers that want what you have even though they contributed nothing. What I have learned is that fighting the non-producers will get you no where.  Locking up your goods and defending them is backwards, it will never work in the long run.

    So what worked?  Sharing, open discussion, and motivating them to produce for themselves.  Not hoarding, not being greedy, but sharing, and helping them to realize their wrongs. Being kind and generous, a newly found characteristic of much more intelligent generations.

    • Wed, Sep 28, 2011 - 10:40pm

      #9
      heffe

      heffe

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      Joined: Dec 26 2009

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      Not supporting the systems your born into….

    If we abstain from buying gold because someone, somewhere might kill someone over the price of it, and that reasoning causes my family to go bankrupt, which is the greater evil?  Using the same logic, should I not buy food grown unsustainably, meat produced in unethical conditions, gasoline that surely funds terrorism at some level?  Because of the system I was born into, I cannot survive without these things.

    I never said we shouldn’t buy gold. My post was a thought on phrases like ‘haves’ and have nots’.  I see divisionary terminology within people’s thinking. We tend to seperate ourselves from others with a governing syntax, unknown to ourselves as we do it.  I do recognize we all support this destructive system whether we want to or not, but making small steps to avoid doing so will add up.  Buy local produce, eliminate unneeded purchases, drive less, etc. 

    What if I discovered a new element, located only in the jungles of South America, that somehow made fusion economically viable?  Is my discovery evil because some people down there decide to kill each other over it?  Hell, people in Oakland will kill each other over a BEER, should we bring back prohibition?  Oh wait, prohibition caused crime too.

    I dont like the term ‘evil’, as it doesn’t address the issue;  the root cause of these problems.  These people killing each other has its causes, and to generalize a primary cause;  scarcity, or more accurately, horrible mismanagement of scarce resources.  As for the beer example, prohibition is a backwards approach, the real goal is to eliminate the stressful societal conditions that create such despondent individuals. Better education, less demeaning social structures, and ease of access to resources will reduce crime. 

    We are all responsible for our OWN actions.  Humans have a severe problem accepting this.  Buying gold is not an INHERENTLY evil act, murder and robbery are.  In fact, it could be argued that using fiat money is inherently evil!  No one here will argue that fiat money, by itself, does not cause enormous damage, especially to the poor.

    ‘We are responsible for our own actions’ is an interesting phrase, another governing syntax that people use to establish the certainty of their position.  What few consider is how the framework of responsibility, and actions to engage in are predetermined. Is a Mayan Chief evil for sacrificing a virgin girl to the gods?  What about cannibals?  These are beliefs, conditioned onto them through environment.  The same with fiat currency; it is a belief system, as is the monetary-market system.  We aren’t evil for supporting these systems, we are conditioned into unsustainable, destructive systems. The goal for us all is to ‘break down the wall’ as Pink Floyd would say, and seek truly objective methods of resource managment that don’t hurt others, ourselves, or our planet. Evil is meaningless to me, what I seek is root causes, and true solutions of mediation.

    What you are saying is that free will does not exist, we are merely animals.  If this is truly what you believe, then you have a victim mentality, and cannot expect your life to get any better.

    No I never said that ‘free will’ does not exist. In fact, ‘free will’ is yet another governing term used to sway beliefs and confirmations. Just what the hell is ‘free will’?  The word FREE means ‘of no influence’ or ‘without control or limitations’, both of which are ridiculous considering the realm of human existence. Yes, we have a certain range of variables to chose from that are predetermined through our understandings, cultural value systems, and economic structures, but free will is very limited.  What does a starving individual do when they cant get a job? 

    Your free will is nothing more than purchasing power and a small framework of options. As for the claim that I ‘have a victim mentality’, yet again we see another use of terminology which governs the contemporary belief structures.  I am grateful for what I have, I work harder than anyone I know, yet I still have nothing compared to the ‘rich kids’ of my class. The ‘lottery of chance’ I was referring to is an empirically demonstrated characteristic of monetary society. If you are born poor, your chances of escaping poverty are already behind those who are born with well educated, well funded parents. And before you go rushing to throw examples of ‘rags to riches’ at me, I know it is possible, but likely when evaluated on the large scale of things?  No, not even close, a small percentage of ‘lucky winners’.

    The love of money is the root of many evils, there is no doubt about that.  But you can’t single out one or two commodities, they can ALL be pursued to the point of destruction.  Remember the housing bubble?  Pursuit of gold did not cause that.  Yet how many bankruptcies, divorces, murders, thefts, etc. could be linked to the economic flop that the pursuit of "things we couldn’t afford" caused

    Yet another phrase that fails to address root causes. Its not money, or the love of money thats the issue. Its how money, and more specifically, market systems are inherently destructive by their modus operandi. There are many angles to assess this self destructiveness from, as you can look at the necessity of scarce currency, the gaming strategies of business and how maintaining cost efficiency means making cuts to either human standards or environment, or how the processes monetary economies affect psychology.

    To quote, Bernard Lietier, designer of the Euro Currency system, "Greed and competition are not immutable human temperament; they are in fact, created and maintained by the kind of money we are using. We can produce more than enough food to feed the world, yet there is not enough money to pay for it all. The result is that we have to fight each other to survive."

    • Wed, Sep 28, 2011 - 06:32pm

      #5
      heffe

      heffe

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      Joined: Dec 26 2009

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      Have’s/have’s not = false outdated dichotomy

    [quote=TNdancer]

    People get killed in inner cities for their overpriced tennis shoes or leather jacket.

    What’s your point ?  That have nots will kill haves ? 

    Welcome to the earth, 3rd rock from the sun.

    [/quote]

     

    This to me, demonstrates the lack of critical thinking within the older generations.  It is a common phrase used as an explanatory excuse for the miserable state of the world.

    There is no difference between a have and have not, there are both humans, the only thing seperating them is the lottery of chance and the circumstances of your life, especially in the first 2 decades. 

    If you are a ‘have’ you probably pride yourself in the idea that your wealth has only arisen from your ‘hard work’, forgetting that the circumstances in which you are born into shape your access to values and understandings.  Im 24, have been in poverty all my life, and have watched my mother work her ass off, just to be broke and unemployed with a MA in business.

    I work harder than anyone I know, yet I still find myself sinking into debt quicksand that will never go away. I am a have not compared to many, I am a have compared to more, but overall I recognize that these false dichotomies are nothing but destructive beliefs.

    My grandparents, nor my parents knew better, my generation will. My generation will forever look back on the insidious monetary-market religion as ‘the most bizarre thought delusion in all human history."

     

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