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    Suicide By Pesticide

    What the honey bee die-off means for humanity
    by Chris Martenson

    Friday, May 22, 2015, 3:18 PM

This article was originally published for PeakProsperity.com's enrolled subscribers on 5/18/15. Given its importance, so many of them contacted us to make this post public that we are doing so today. ~ Adam

As you are aware, honey bees have been suffering from something called Colony Collapse Disorder. In practice, what this means is that the bees simply vanish from their hives, leaving behind their most precious worldly possessions: honey and larvae.

What causes these mysterious vanishing acts has been something of a mystery. But because the phenomenon began really ramping up in 2006, we can focus in on some suspects.

While it’s always possible that the bees are suffering ‘death from a thousand cuts’ — where it’s no one specific thing but rather a wide range of minor insults, ranging from loss of forage to herbicides to fungicides to pesticides — there’s actually quite strong evidence pointing to a specific class of pesticides called neonicotinoids.

This class of pesticides is massively and indiscriminately toxic. More specific to our investigation here, it was only introduced into widespread use shortly before the massive bee die-offs began.

Biocide = Suicide

Actually, it’s not really proper to call neonicotinoids ‘pesticides’ because they don't solely target pests. They should more accurately be called ‘biocides’ because they kill all insects equally and indiscriminately.

How toxic are they?

The neonics are so toxic that it's sufficient to simply lightly coat a seed with it before planting. When the seed grows to maturity, the plant will still have enough absorbed toxin circulating within its system to kill any insect that munches on it or sucks on its sap.

Think about that for a minute. Coat a kernel of corn with a neonic, sow it, and the mature plant will still be lethal to a corn borer when the corn ears develop several months later.

But not just to insects:

"A single corn kernel coated with a neonicotinoid can kill a song bird." As a long time environmental lawyer and campaigner, I should not have been stunned by that fact but I was. Shaking my head in dismay, I read on, "Even a tiny grain of wheat or canola treated with the …neonicotinoid… can fatally poison a bird."

(Source)

Ugh. Boy, that depresses me — thinking of the mentality in play that allows one to conceive of and then use such powerful poisons simply because one wants to engage in lazy farming. Hard farming requires knowing how to rotate crops, use beneficial natural relationships, and work intimately with the land on which you farm so as to minimize pest losses while maximizing the abundance of both your crops and the local ecosystem.

Sadly, the indiscriminate neonic killers are being used very widely. The mentality at play might as well be kill them all and let god sort them out.  And therefore we are literally taking out whole swaths of life; both observed as in the case of the honey bee, and unobserved in the case of the many, many organisms not commercially or recreationally important enough to us to notice and track.

Killing off organisms in an ecosystem using indiscriminate biocides is quite literally a slow form of suicide for us humans. As within, so without.  You cannot poison and kill of the world around you without poisoning and killing yourself.

Simply put: We are killing ourselves. And the data is literally horrifying.

The Birds and the Bees

If the thesis that neonics are harmful to both pests and other life forms alike is correct, then we should be able to detect those effects both with direct studies and indirect measurements.

Here’s where the horrifying part comes in. All of the data agrees: neonics are stone cold killers.

Insecticides Linked To Farmland Bird Population Declines

July 10, 2014

A new study in the journal Nature has found that use of neonicotinoids is linked to a decline in the populations of farmland birds across Europe.

For the study, scientists from Radboud University in the Netherlands and the Dutch Centre for Field Ornithology and Birdlife Netherlands (SOVON) analyzed long-term data for both farmland bird populations and chemical amounts in surface water. They discovered that in locations where water held high amounts of imidacloprid, a standard neonicotinoid, bird populations were known to decrease by an average of 3.5 percent on a yearly basis.

“In ten years it’s a 35 percent reduction in the local population, it’s really huge,” study author Hans de Kroon from Radboud University told Matt McGrath of BBC News. “It means the alarm bells are on straight away.”

The study team said the insecticide is probably coating seeds that the birds like to eat – as well as leaching into both water and soil around the sprayed areas. They added that neonicotinoids can persist in the environment for up to three years.

(Source)

Here we have a study that shows huge and dramatic negative impacts on bird life. A massive culling of more than a third of the bird populations in ten years is a really disturbing figure. In places where the water held high concentrations of neonics, bird populations were hit hardest.

The other interesting finding in the above the study was that the neonics were found in the water supply.  They are not supposed to end up there, but they do, as we now know:

Bee-Killing Pesticides Found in Midwest Rivers

Aug 4, 2014

PESTICIDES LINKED TO declining bee and bird populations have been found in streams across the upper Midwest, raising yet more concerns about these chemicals’ environmental effects.

Researchers from the United States Geological Survey tested waters at nine sites in Iowa and Nebraska. They found neonicotinoids in each, frequently at levels that may harm insects and the life that depends on them.

“This wasn’t a toxicity study, but there’s research out there indicating that these concentrations could be of concern,” said USGS chemist Michelle Hladik, lead author of the paper describing the survey in the journal Environmental Pollution.

(Source)

Given just how toxic the neonics are, I have to wonder what the effect of them are on all the insect life that has water in its life stage: the mayflies, stoneflies and caddis flies. If these insects are killed, then you will find big declines in the bird populations that depend on those same insects for their food supply.

And/or if the insects are carrying sub-lethal levels of the neonic biocides in them, then the birds may be bio-concentrating the toxin to detrimental if not lethal levels in their own bodies.

I have to ask: What sort of a so-called ‘civilized’ nation, in this day and age, allows toxic levels of pesticides (or biocides as the case may be) to build up at hazardous levels in surface water in the first place?

What’s so important about selling a few bucks more to enable giant chemical firms and certain farmers to practice lazy farming that we’re willing to sacrifice the complete loss of critical elements of key ecosystems?

We may not tend to appreciate insects, but they are utterly and fabulously essential to everything we hold dear.  You cannot just kill them all without upsetting the myriad finely-tuned systems of which both they and we are components.

While we have a lot of data on honey bees because they are commercially kept and tracked, the wild bees are not really tracked all that carefully. But we know enough to conclude that they, too, are suffering:

Neonicotinoid pesticides dramatically harm wild bees, study finds

APR 22, 2015

A common type of pesticide is dramatically harming wild bees, according to a new in-the-field study that outside experts say may help shift the way the U.S. government looks at a controversial class of chemicals.

But in the study published by the journal Nature on Wednesday, honeybees — which get trucked from place to place to pollinate major crops like almonds— didn't show the significant ill effects that wild cousins like bumblebees did. This is a finding some experts found surprising. A second study published in the same journal showed that in lab tests bees are not repelled by the pesticides and in fact may even prefer pesticide coated crops, making the problem worse.

Scientists in Sweden were able to conduct a study that was in the wild, but still had the in-the-lab qualities of having control groups that researchers covet. They used 16 patches of landscape, eight where canola seeds were coated with the pesticide and eight where they weren't, and compared the two areas.

When the first results came in, "I was quite, 'Oh my God,'" said study lead author Maj Rundlof of Lund University. She said the reduction in bee health was "much more dramatic than I ever expected."

In areas treated with the pesticide, there were half as many wild bees per square meter than there were in areas not treated, Rundlof said. In the pesticide patches, bumblebee colonies had "almost no weight gain" compared to the normal colonies that gained about a pound, she said.

(Source)

The bumblebees are essential to the overall state of the ecosystems of the world because they pollinate things that honeybees don’t. There is some overlap, but the bumblebees are able to reach deeper into certain flowers and have different platn preferences than honeybees, so they are not replaceable.  They are unique contributors. If they go away, so will the many plants that depend on them for their life cycle.

And it gets worse:

Beyond Honeybees: Now Wild Bees and Butterflies May Be in Trouble

MAY 6, 2014

Among other pollinators, iconic monarch butterfly declines are well documented: Their numbers are now at a small fraction of historical levels. And entomologist Art Shapiro of the University of California, Davis spent most of the last four decades counting butterflies across central California, and found declines in every region

These declines don’t just involve butterflies that require very specific habitats or food sources, and might be expected to be fragile, but so-called generalist species thought to be highly adaptable. Many other entomologists have told Black the same thing.

“Species that used to be in all our yards are dropping out, but nobody’s monitoring them,” Black said.

(Source)

It’s the butterflies, too. Certainly in my own personal experience, I’ve noticed a lot fewer butterflies in my backyard over the past several years. We plant flowers specifically for bees and butterflies, so I'm something of a casual tracker of their types and numbers.

Even more recently, we have solid data showing a dose-response where the heaviest neonic use correlates with the heaviest honeybee die-offs:

Bee Die-Offs Are Worst Where Pesticide Use Is Heaviest

May 14, 2015

The nation’s honeybee crisis has deepened, with colony die-offs rising sharply over last year’s levels, the latest survey from the US Department of Agriculture-funded Bee Informed Partnership shows. A decade or so ago, a mysterious winter-season phenomenon known as colony-collapse disorder emerged, in which bee populations would abandon their hives en masse. These heavy winter-season losses have tapered off somewhat, but now researchers are finding substantial summer-season losses, too. 

And here’s a map a map depicting where losses are heaviest:

(Source)

The article goes on to cite much of the direct as well as circumstantial evidence we have that these biocides are the culprits for much of the damage cited above.  Take a look at both where the usage of the neonics is heaviest and when they began to be used in earnest (charts below) and then recall that the bee, butterfly, and bird declines all began around 2006 and have gotten measurably and drastically worse in the last few years.

Hmmmm….seems to me that in any court of law, and in the mind of any reasonable person, there’s enough evidence here to say that there’s a very big problem and the neonics are the likely culprits.

One bird that I’ve always loved in the Sparrow Hawk, or American Kestrel as it is now more properly called.  The smallest of the hawks it is brightly colored and was a very prominent bird of my childhood. They used to be everywhere.

Now they are quite scarce in my area. And because nobody makes any money off of them, only a few ‘birders’ seem to notice or care.

But these mainly insect-eating birds are in serious decline:

American Kestrel Population Drops Dramatically, And Without Fanfare

Jul 29, 2014

On a national level, the American kestrel (Falco sparverius) population has been plummeting. Records from the North American Breeding Bird Survey, a massive annual data collection effort for more than 400 bird species overseen by the U.S. Geological Survey (USGS) and the Canadian Wildlife Service, show the kestrels have declined by an estimated one and a half percent each year between 1966 and 2010. The long-term loss is almost 50 percent of the population. That’s a big drop for a bird considered abundant in North America.

A handful of things could be causing the lower kestrel numbers, bird biologists say, including increased predation by Cooper’s hawks, continued exposure to pesticides, and competition at nesting sites by European starlings.

(Source)

Every biologist struggles to explain the massive losses in their chosen area of study due to ‘natural causes.’  But the easier and more obvious choice is ‘humans are doing something, and it’s killing off this thing I am studying.’ 

So when we put all of the above together, it's obvious that Rachel Carson’s Silent Spring has taught the US EPA and businesses nothing at all.

You would think that in the wake of the DDT disaster that we’d be more careful. But that’s just not the case.  The exact same mistakes are being made here again. And it is beyond a tragedy because this time it’s being done with our full awareness.

Obviously, the sorts of environmental impact and toxicity studies that were supposed to be done were either forgone, or done fraudulently.

The Response

After a lot of hue and cry, and years and years of solid studies and accumulating evidence, the EPA finally took a stand and issued new firm rules for the neonics.

However, don't just scan the headlines because you’ll end up with the wrong impression.

Read more carefully:

EPA Restricts Use of Pesticides Suspected of Killing Bees

Apr 2, 2015

The EPA has issued a moratorium on use of a type of pesticide theorized to be responsible for plummeting bee populations. Neonicotinoids are a class of common pesticides that recent research has pointed to as being harmful to birds, bees and other animals.

The EPA previously approved their use, but outcry over the damage being done has caused the agency to reverse course while more studies are done. On Thursday, the EPA sent letters to people and companies that have applied for outdoor use of the pesticide, saying that new use permits won’t be issued.

New uses of neonicotinoids will no long be approved “until the data on pollinator health have been received and appropriate risk assessments completed,” the EPA letter reads. Existing permits to use them, however, will not be rescinded — something wildlife and environmental advocacy groups are unhappy with.

(Source)

The headline implies that the EPA is now limiting the amount of neonic being used but that's not the case at all.  As a result of their 'ruling' even more could be used in the near future, or maybe less, but the ruling itself does nothing to restrict how neonics are currently being used because it only applies to 'new' uses. 

Are you kidding me? This represents the ‘middle ground’ the EPA sought?

Every single current use of neonics will continue.  By the way, one “use” is using neonics to treat corn.  Or wheat, or any other already approved “use.”  Those use maps above will continue unabated while the EPA 'studies' the issue, a process that could take a decade or more.

The ruling means that farmers newly considering using these biocides will not be blocked in any way shape or form as long as they are going to use them in a way that's already approved.

So, the exceptional and mounting damage will continue.

This is pathetic, and it is an outrage. It represents everything that is wrong with America today.

There is both economic damage being done to beekeepers and everybody who depends on their services, and there is massive environmental and ecosystem damage being done. The EPA has ruled that a few hundred million dollars of sales for major chemical companies outweigh every other right in this story, including the basic right of all life to simply live.

[Note for subscribers, this is a new set of paragraphs inserted to keep up with recent developments]

More recently, the Obama administration has unveiled the results of a task force meant to study the plight of the pollinators and make recommendations on how to support them.

How the White House plans to help the humble bee maintain its buzz

May 9, 2015

On Tuesday, the Obama administration will announce the first National Strategy to Promote the Health of Honey Bees and Other Pollinators, a bureaucratic title for a plan to save the bee, other small winged animals and their breeding grounds.

The strategy, a copy of which was obtained by The Washington Post, will seek to manage the way forests burned by wildfire are replanted, the way offices are landscaped and the way roadside habitats where bees feed are preserved.

“What are we doing on bees?” Obama asked Holdren as they prepared to wrap up an Oval Office meeting in the summer of 2013. “Are we doing enough?”

That discussion led to the launch of the White House Pollinator Health Task Force, whose recommendations are being unveiled Tuesday.

CropLife America chief executive Jay Vroom, whose group represents pesticide manufacturers and participated in the task force, said that while his members might disagree with the EPA at times, they’ve “continued to be science-based and balanced” at the agency.

Not at all surprisingly, given the fact that we have 8 years of increasing and highly obvious evidence of neonicotinoid inflicted damage, the Obama task force came out with recommendations to study pesticides for a few more years and then devote a couple of nickels and a lot of lip service to increasing ‘habitat.’

I know that the task force came up with diddly squat because the main pesticide promoting trade association representing the manufacturers of pesticides and other agricultural chemicals, the ill-named CropLife America, loved the resulting recommendations.

That’s all I need to know that this task force was a joke, came up with nothing useful, and ended up protecting narrow economic interests as opposed to protecting broad life supportive aims.

The very idea that it’s habitat that’s at fault here, rather than the chemicals is just another insult to everyone of reasonable intelligence.

The American Way

I find it increasingly difficult to believe in the things the country in which I live stands for.

In Germany, where the various interests are more carefully balanced, and where people and beekeepers actually have some say, things are very different.

From 2008:

Germany bans chemicals linked to honeybee devastation

Germany has banned a family of pesticides that are blamed for the deaths of millions of honeybees. The German Federal Office of Consumer Protection and Food Safety (BVL) has suspended the registration for eight pesticide seed treatment products used in rapeseed oil and sweetcorn.

The move follows reports from German beekeepers in the Baden-Württemberg region that two thirds of their bees died earlier this month following the application of a pesticide called clothianidin.

"It's a real bee emergency," said Manfred Hederer, president of the German Professional Beekeepers' Association. "50-60% of the bees have died on average and some beekeepers have lost all their hives."

Tests on dead bees showed that 99% of those examined had a build-up of clothianidin. The chemical, produced by Bayer CropScience, a subsidiary of the German chemical giant Bayer, is sold in Europe under the trade name Poncho.

(Source)

Several things are fascinating here.  First, the neonic clothianidin is actually manufactured by a German company, and it’s the same company that sells the stuff in the US. You’d think that, if anything, the German government would work harder to protect the economic interests of its own companies more than the US EPA. But you’d be wrong.

Second, this was way back in 2008. German beekeepers had one very bad incident with the chemical, the appropriate tests were run, the risk was deemed unacceptable and the pesticide was yanked from the market.

That’s how these things are supposed to work.

Yet in the US, it is now seven years after that and the EPA has only gotten around to nixing new uses for the compounds that are now widely used and destroying insects and birds across a huge swath of the country.

Even if it would cost somebody a whole lot of money, and maybe even make farming a touch less lazy and require more effort, I would personally favor banning every and any pesticide and herbicide and fungicide until all of the appropriate long-term toxicological studies had been carried out.  They are not that difficult to run, they just cost money and take time.

No ‘grandfathered’ uses. No exceptions. Prove the stuff is safe or else it cannot be sold or used.

But that’s because I would choose life over money. And that’s apparently where I part ways with my country, at least as far as the US government is concerned.

Unintended consequences

The prediction here is easy enough to make. The law of unintended consequences is going to rear up and bite us. Again.

One cannot simply wipe out entire swaths of insect and bird populations without causing eventual and massive difficulties.

One day we’ll wake up and wonder why some pest has gotten totally and uncontrollably out of hand. And if we chase it down, we’ll discover some beautifully complex natural cycle that involved a host species, a predator, a plant and animal and a few other creatures that used to dance to a song that had been written and perfected over a hundred million years of evolution.

Break the dance, and you break the web of life. 

Mark my words, ‘insects’ is going to become a very hot topic over the next few years. And my sincere hope is that we do not destroy too much and that we figure this out before it’s too late.

For now, all I can say is: Shame on you, EPA.  Deep, and lasting shame on all of you.

Conclusion

All of this leads me here: We desperately need a new narrative.

The old one not only allows but encourages the neonic story, and a hundred others just like it, to take root and flourish.

We cannot begin to fight each battle — neonics and fracking waste water disposal and leaking Gulf of Mexico wells and money in politics – and hope for anything more than a slight delay of the arrival of our miserable end.

Instead we have to have a new narrative where it is emotionally impossible for an EPA staffer to approve neonics because they would be too horrified to do so.  I could not use them, but that's because I have an internal narrative that values all life.

While I certainly think people should fight these battles, those skirmishes are for naught if another crew (that’s us) is not paving the way for that new narrative at the same time.

If we were to have a new Declaration of Independence, it might start with these words (from our group effort):

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all people are created equal and that all life is sacred.  That all people are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights and Responsibilities.  That among these Rights are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness, and among these Responsibilities are to live in Harmony with Nature, to be Stewards for the Natural World, and to leave a World Worth Inheriting to our Posterity."

I am sickened by the damage being done by the neonics and I am dismayed by the pathetic and weak response by the so-called regulators at the EPA.

In a healthy culture these people would be packed off to new jobs, and they would be shunned by thoughtful people until they had atoned for their ridiculous actions.

But that is not yet the world in which we live.

A more subtle point to be made here is that each of us needs to prepare for the fact that the people in authority, even when confronted with compelling and obvious data, will choose to put profits over life and favor doing nothing over something.

In short, stories like this one cement my view that we face a future that will be shaped more by disaster than design, and that we each need to prepare for that as best we can.

~ Chris Martenson

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94 Comments

  • Tue, May 19, 2015 - 4:34am

    #1

    davefairtex

    Status Diamond Member (Offline)

    Joined: Sep 03 2008

    Posts: 3322

    disconnected

    I'm with you on the "horrified" reaction.  Your example of Germany's reaction underscores our failure.  And your highlight of a failed overall societal narrative as the source of the problem feels exactly right.

    We can point the finger at shadowy interest groups, but they will always exist.  If we as a society/culture felt more connected with everything, this sort of thing just wouldn't happen, and the shadowy, monied interest groups would scuttle right back under the rocks from which they emerged.

    Years ago I recall reading an article about a farmer who grew one set of crops for the market treated with pesticides, and another "organic" set to be eaten by his own family.  That's our society in microcosm: a feeling of total disconnection, and in the US it seems to be particularly bad.

     

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  • Tue, May 19, 2015 - 5:29am

    #2

    HughK

    Status Gold Member (Offline)

    Joined: Mar 06 2012

    Posts: 571

    Thanks for this, Chris

    Thanks for this article, Chris.  While I know that you need to make a living, if you later make this one free-access, then I'll link it on my Facebook page, as I have before with other articles, and share it with some colleagues.

    We are surviving and producing plenty of food without DDT and we can certainly do the same without neonics.

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  • Tue, May 19, 2015 - 6:33am

    #3

    sand_puppy

    Status Platinum Member (Offline)

    Joined: Apr 13 2011

    Posts: 2083

    Very discouraged

    Thanks for telling this story so clearly, Chris.  Again, I see your gift at sifting through a large body of information and retelling a story from the perspective of one who personally cares for Life.

    Tonight especially I am feeling terribly discouraged.  It seems that we have hundreds of individual disasters going on.  Neonics, the defeat of the "Architects" resolution to re-examine WTC7, fracking, depleting aquifers, fraking waste-water contaminated aquifers, drought, the outlawing of cash, bail-in, riots, manufactured riots, covert operations by soldiers in other nations, overt raids into other nations, the use of military domestic, lying to start wars, lying to make the wars bigger……   The list seems very, very long tonight.

    I am coming to think that you and treebeard and the many others here are right.  What we need is an entirely new story.

     

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  • Tue, May 19, 2015 - 8:03am

    #4

    Arthur Robey

    Status Platinum Member (Offline)

    Joined: Feb 03 2010

    Posts: 1814

    Dirty Deals, Done Dirt Cheap.

    As long as companies are mandated to maximise shareholder profit they are compelled by law to disregard Externalities.  

    Your founders had great reservations about the formation of companies. Their fears were well considered. Companies are now supranational and their latest gambit is to codify their superiority to elected governments with the TPP abomination. 

    https://www.getup.org.au/campaigns/tpp/tpp/the-dirtiest-deal-youve-never-heard-of

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  • Tue, May 19, 2015 - 10:12am

    #5

    blackeagle

    Status Bronze Member (Offline)

    Joined: May 16 2013

    Posts: 233

    Greed vs. culture

    I know several greedy persons. Some of them are rich, other not. They share one thing: lack of culture.

    When money is the goal instead of a tool, then we know the result.

    Culture opens the eyes and helps build a respectful behavior. By culture I don't mean go see a play, or the latest movie, or have a conversation about the last Justin's stupidity.

    Promoting culture, as wide as possible, is certainly an excellent tool for PP to share and spread its message.

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  • Tue, May 19, 2015 - 2:04pm

    #6
    Time2help

    Time2help

    Status Platinum Member (Offline)

    Joined: Jun 08 2011

    Posts: 2307

    Next

    It truly amazes me how much there is to learn about how people's minds work in all of this. How the hell can people not see?

    Between the AIA vote, the subject matter of this article (great one by the way, still sucks to hear it), and a friend dropping dead over the weekend of a heart attack (myopic, but I'm allowing myself), well – yesterday kinda sucked folks. 

    So to heck with yesterday.  Let's do whatever is next today.

    Ken

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  • Tue, May 19, 2015 - 2:53pm

    #7

    pyranablade

    Status Member (Offline)

    Joined: Nov 08 2010

    Posts: 219

    Time for a Boycott

    My neighbor was just recommending that I purchase a Bayer product for an ailing tree that I have. Well, I'm not going to support Bayer.

    This death of bees and other insects is a really big deal and I think that Chris is spot-on about the causes. Chris is a scientist, but in reading the sources he provides in the post, not too much genius is needed to conclude that agricultural chemicals are the source of the problem. In the mainstream media I've only seen statements that cover for the EPA, saying that we don't know what is causing these mysterious deaths ("maybe pesticides" but they always give other possibilities).

    A new narrative. Yeah, that is good. But let's also do whatever specific work we can to stop neonicotinoids ASAP.

    Boycotting Bayer is one thing. Eating as little commercially produced food as possible is another. Help me think of what else can be done.

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  • Tue, May 19, 2015 - 3:23pm

    Reply to #3

    Chris Martenson

    Status Platinum Member (Offline)

    Joined: Jun 07 2007

    Posts: 4969

    On the bright side we have...

    [quote=sand_puppy]

    Thanks for telling this story so clearly, Chris.  Again, I see your gift at sifting through a large body of information and retelling a story from the perspective of one who personally cares for Life.

    Tonight especially I am feeling terribly discouraged.  It seems that we have hundreds of individual disasters going on.  Neonics, the defeat of the "Architects" resolution to re-examine WTC7, fracking, depleting aquifers, fraking waste-water contaminated aquifers, drought, the outlawing of cash, bail-in, riots, manufactured riots, covert operations by soldiers in other nations, overt raids into other nations, the use of military domestic, lying to start wars, lying to make the wars bigger……   The list seems very, very long tonight.

    I am coming to think that you and treebeard and the many others here are right.  What we need is an entirely new story.

    [/quote]

    Sandpuppy, I am with you.  

    First, I guess if I ever am in the position of seeking an architect for a steel framed building I will know how to select one.  I will avoid those who cannot understand basic physics as I consider that to be something of an important part of the profession.

    Second, I h.a.t.e. writing reports like this one.  I wish I could balance these out with more positive reports but it seems that every direction I turn there's an assault on common sense, basic decency and my intelligence.

    Every single day the stock ""market"" is jammed higher on good news, or bad news, or no news, while gold and silver are capped and slammed in what are obviously price manipulating ways, is another day I shake my head at human folly.

    Hey neonics cannot be all that bad because the S&P is at a new record, right?  that seems to be the thinking, or lack thereof, that infects and informs the American experiment right now.

    Surprisingly, I think the ethos of our times in America was brilliantly captured in a song in the Lego movie:

    "Everything is awesome! Everything is cool when you are part of the team!"

    As long as people are kept fed, entertained, and told that everything is awesome, then practically nobody bothers to lift their head and look around.

    Architects included.

    But for anybody tracking the trends, there's a lot we should be quite concerned about and paying attention to…

    Because of all this, what we need is a new story, one with a lot of new elements.  

     

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  • Tue, May 19, 2015 - 3:45pm

    #8

    Snydeman

    Status Member (Offline)

    Joined: Feb 06 2013

    Posts: 588

    We just need to pedal harder.

    And faster. I mean, our current civilization model must be able to fly, right? The ground is moving closer to us at a high rate of speed, but surely we'll take off soon….right?

     

    Alas, the world was not made for man, nor for beast, but for all of us. Were that we would realize that.

     

    (All credit for the ideas in this post go to Daniel Quinn, author of Ishmael)

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  • Tue, May 19, 2015 - 3:54pm

    #9
    jandeligans

    jandeligans

    Status Member (Offline)

    Joined: Dec 21 2011

    Posts: 27

    Personal purchasing choices

    This is a great article Chris. I have been watching the evil of the neonics for a while but this article clarified the situation for me as I didn't realize the potency of that little pink coating. The corn seeds sold in my local farm supply store used by nearly everyone here are "treated". I used them myself several years ago not knowing what it meant. Before reading this article I had no idea that the small coating was so long lasting and powerful. It is sickening that the EPA is no longer trustworthy and the government protects the corporations over the people or planet. The role of government should be in protection of people and planet – sadly no longer the case. But what is also discouraging to me is that even among people who care – like myself – we aren't given enough information to make good choices or we aren't willing to spend the extra money required to make the right choice. An example is my local food co-op which is a small and struggling enterprise but we are hanging in there providing local and organic food in an area dominated by Wal-Mart. But we have 3 egg providers all of whom feed their hens GMO and pesticide laced Purina type feed. Although we have a fabulous local grower of organic chicken feeds (which I use for my home hens) none of the 3 co-op providers are willing to spend the extra money to use healthy feed and are enabling the chemical abuses by their choice. So the people at our co-op aren't given a choice to eat organic eggs. These are people who are conscientious and concerned about the world – but can't overcome their training that frugality is the determining factor. Part of the problem is that all of the information we read out there in the MSM always prints both sides of every issue – whether there is a legitimate other side or not. So the concerned person is always left with the idea that it is still an open issue. Or like the headline that Chris quoted that something is being done about it already when in reality it isn't. My point is that even concerned people are supporting neonics when they purchase anything that contains corn that is not organic. People do not realize that if we all continue to buy these products that we are supporting this. If you buy anything that contains corn that is not organic, you are actively supporting neonics and actively supporting the die-off of bees and birds. People are not associating their actions with the results. I hope you will release this article to the public Chris as I support that you are printing the facts here which need to be published more clearly without the industrial conflict of interest. How do we get people to see the real facts here and vote with their dollars?

    (I am not saying that people's purchasing choices is to be blamed for the situation – only that it is one thing we can control now and a sufficient boycott to cut into profits would wake up the Big Ag industry)

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  • Tue, May 19, 2015 - 6:01pm

    Reply to #9

    Chris Martenson

    Status Platinum Member (Offline)

    Joined: Jun 07 2007

    Posts: 4969

    Do Not Buy These Seeds

    [quote=jandeligans]

    This is a great article Chris. I have been watching the evil of the neonics for a while but this article clarified the situation for me as I didn't realize the potency of that little pink coating. The corn seeds sold in my local farm supply store used by nearly everyone here are "treated". I used them myself several years ago not knowing what it meant. Before reading this article I had no idea that the small coating was so long lasting and powerful.

    (…)

    [/quote]

    And how could you realize the potency of the toxin that came from your local, friendly farm store?

    It's not like there's any information provided…and I have planted those seeds in the past myself, long before I became aware of such things.  You buy package of seeds with a picture of healthy, fresh corn on the front, open it up and note, hey, these are pink.

    So for anybody out there with a garden, please take note.  Neonicotinoid coated seeds are colored:

    And it could be any color at all, it doesn't have to be pink.  Just avoid coated seeds if you can.

    Interestingly, Lowe's has decided to end its relationship with Neonics (but won't complete the 'phase out' until 2019.

    Lowe's To Stop Selling Neonicotinoid Pesticides That May Be Harmful To Bees

    Home Depot is taking a softer route and just going with 'labeling.'

    Home Depot to Require Neonicotinoids Labeling

    Why labeling?  Shouldn't pesticides already be indicated on packaging?  The answer is yes…but…plants that have been treated with neonics are sold to consumers, such as flowering plants, and those are both not labeled and dangerous to insects.  

    So people have been buying potted plants and bringing them home unaware that those plants were highly toxic to insects and other life.  

    Really, to your point Jan, we should not have to work this hard to keep toxic crap out of our lives.  If the EPA cannot manage proper testing, education and labeling then it might as well be disbanded.

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  • Tue, May 19, 2015 - 6:23pm

    #10
    Time2help

    Time2help

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    Joined: Jun 08 2011

    Posts: 2307

    Is organic food worth the higher price? Many experts say no

    The system really is a crock of you-know-what…

    Is organic food worth the higher price? Many experts say no

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  • Tue, May 19, 2015 - 6:32pm

    #11
    jennifersam07

    jennifersam07

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    Posts: 116

    Obama to the rescue

    This announced today: How the White House Plans to Help the Humble Bee…

     

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  • Tue, May 19, 2015 - 6:43pm

    #12
    Time2help

    Time2help

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    Joined: Jun 08 2011

    Posts: 2307

    Re: Obama to the Rescue

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  • Tue, May 19, 2015 - 6:51pm

    Reply to #7

    Adam Taggart

    Status Platinum Member (Offline)

    Joined: May 25 2009

    Posts: 2840

    Start beekeeping!

    [quote=pyranablade]

    Boycotting Bayer is one thing. Eating as little commercially produced food as possible is another. Help me think of what else can be done.

    [/quote]

    I started keeping honey bees in 2012 after learning about CCD. Some years the bees have done well, other years I've lost entire hives (last year, sadly, all of them). But, each Spring, if necessary, I buy (or capture, if I can) more bees.

    I do this for many reasons. But most important, I see this as my participation in the fight to keep our pollinators, and thus our food system, intact. The army of small beekeepers is playing an important role in supporting bee populations in our local areas through this period of neonic assault. With our efforts and a little luck, we can hopefully sustain the bees long enough to make it to a ramp-down or full ban on these biocides, and then help rebuild populations to their natural levels.

    I've posted several times on how manageable it is for nearly anyone to become a beekeeper, no matter where you live.

    If Chris' article above has moved you, consider becoming a backyard beekeeper. Or at least, intentionally planting pollinator-friendly plants where you live.

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  • Tue, May 19, 2015 - 6:52pm

    Reply to #11

    Chris Martenson

    Status Platinum Member (Offline)

    Joined: Jun 07 2007

    Posts: 4969

    Re: Obama To The Rescue

    [quote=jennifersam07]

    This announced today: How the White House Plans to Help the Humble Bee…

    [/quote]

    Sweet!   A task force!

    :/

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  • Tue, May 19, 2015 - 6:58pm

    #13
    Time2help

    Time2help

    Status Platinum Member (Offline)

    Joined: Jun 08 2011

    Posts: 2307

    Or at least...

    [quote=AdamTaggart]Or at least, intentionally planting pollinator-friendly plants where you live.[/quote]

    Yep.

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  • Tue, May 19, 2015 - 7:06pm

    Reply to #11
    jennifersam07

    jennifersam07

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    Posts: 116

    Yeah, right.

    Should fix everything, as long as the EPA doesn't 'unduly focus on pesticide's impact".

     

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  • Tue, May 19, 2015 - 7:17pm

    #14

    Quercus bicolor

    Status Bronze Member (Offline)

    Joined: Mar 19 2008

    Posts: 288

    Monarchs

    On the Friday before Columbus Day weekend 1994, an unusually warm day for October in upstate New York, I drove up the Northway (interstate 87) from Albany to a beautiful mostly un-trailed wilderness in the eastern high peaks of the Adirondacks.  I was co-leading what was to be the first of many wilderness skills programs.  To get our new business off the ground, we stacked the deck with several low or no paying participants – a couple of friends, my partner's wife, our future 3rd partner, etc so the program would run with one full price participant.  On that warm Columbus day, in 100 miles of highway we encountered perhaps close to 1000 Monarch Butterflies, all of them heading southwest towards their wintering grounds.  It was a sight to behold, noticeable even at highway speeds. 

    Later in the journey, we realized that there were dead monarchs on the shoulder of the highway, perhaps as many as 10 per mile just on our side of the road.  We were seeing about as many dead butterflies as live ones.  Depending on how long the migration had been going, this was a small, but not insignificant death toll on just one not-very-busy highway! 

    Then I realized that we were hitting butterflies too!  This upset me terribly, I was nearly crying in the driver's seat.  I slowed down to a bit below the speed limit and found that I could slow further or slightly shift in my lane to avoid a collision when I saw a butterfly ahead.  Even so, we still hit an occasional one.

    On that day, I made a personal commitment that I would do everything I could to help build a world where humans loved and respected their fellow creatures enough to build a way of life that didn't threaten to bring everything down including themselves.

    Now, over 20 years later, I've lived that commitment as best I could.  There have been compromises and weeks or months of forgetfulness, but also many successes.  Reading this piece by Chris is saddening.  The monarch population has visibly crashed to anyone who pays even a bit of attention.  The wholesale spraying of tens of millions acres with potent biocides is a threat orders of magnitude greater than highway collisions, yet it is orders of magnitude easier to change.  How numb does a society have to be to let the poisoning continue? 

    Yet it's also inspiring.  People are waking up to the folly of the old story and they're ready for a new one.  A new narrative is slowly being born, partly by our own work to craft and spread it.  As the story gains traction, we will be motivated to live differently to take bolder and more wide-reaching actions.  That is why the discussion was so lively on Saturday night at Rowe and then again in the thread Chris linked to.  We need that new narrative to provide the foundation on which we can take bolder steps and deepen our commitment to creating a world worth inheriting.  It's the new story that will help us to bring our actions more fully in line with our values.

    To living fully and boldly,

    Steve

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  • Tue, May 19, 2015 - 7:46pm

    Reply to #13

    Dogs_In_A_Pile

    Status Platinum Member (Offline)

    Joined: Jan 04 2009

    Posts: 820

    Watermelon Sage

    5 years ago we planted watermelon sage and tangerine marigold as pollinator attractors to complement the indigenous wisteria and globe wisteria.  In addition to real live no kidding honeybees, we got numerous species of butterflies and moths.  You can hear (and feel) the buzz as you walk from box to box in the backyard.  Mixed emotions with the black swallowtails as that means our fennel and dill are short lived experiments that are typically field stripped in a day.  I mean were………

    Still trying to sort out exactly how the hummingbird moth has any aerodynamic capabilities at all.

    The watermelon sage explodes to about 7 feet high and 8 feet wide each spring after being aggressively trimmed back to 2 x 2 each fall.  While the flowers of watermelon sage (salvia microphylla) are very edible, the leaves should be avoided as they contain the same diterpenoid kappa opioid agonists found in salvia divinorum (albeit in lower concentrations).  Do not ask me how I know this…..

    One of the more enjoyable activities this time of year is watching the hummingbirds line up like planes into O'Hare.  Our highest count is 14 in a holding pattern.
     

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  • Tue, May 19, 2015 - 8:23pm

    #15
    Shamba

    Shamba

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    Posts: 6

    thanks for this article

    But it is so sad but comforting that i am not the only one wo feels this way not just about the bee situation but the way our government does everything these days. Its like the power that be have decided to speed up their destructiveness of nature and human beings in all ways possible.  The last 3 to5 yrs seem like like the destructiveness is twice as fast as the previous 10 yrs. Do "they" have some deadline they're trying to make?  Financial destruction, human destruction, destruction of all living things and generally scorched earth policy on the whole earth.   What do they win for doing all this?  He/she who has the most money and most destroyed lives wins?

    I have been moderate Democrat all my adult life but now even they sicken me with their support of eternal war  and their dishonesty. 

    This is one sane place to come so thank, you, Chris and others.   

     

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  • Tue, May 19, 2015 - 8:43pm

    #16
    robie robinson

    robie robinson

    Status Gold Member (Offline)

    Joined: Aug 25 2009

    Posts: 925

    not all seed coatings are neonics!

    most are fungicides to cover the A$$ of the gardener/farmer who plants in too cool soil.

    robie,husband,father,farmer,optometrist

    ps, i've lost no hives since going to natural cell, foundationless, and only feeding honey from their own hive back to them if neccessary. ie. we rob only after spring flowv (end of May in northern hemisphere zone 7A) if too few stores are realized by the hives during summer/fall then will feed their own honey back to 'em. (only had to do that once) each hive should weigh about 80lbs at first frost to get thru winter without concern.

     

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  • Tue, May 19, 2015 - 10:41pm

    #17

    Rector

    Status Bronze Member (Offline)

    Joined: Feb 07 2010

    Posts: 348

    The Next CCD

    We will be the next colony to collapse.  

     

    This is what "the collapse" looks like, BTW.  A whole series of stupid and entirely avoidable self imposed hardships that utterly screw our civilization.  Between economic, social, cultural, environmental, energy, and political decline – we are doomed.  Pick your favorite self-imposed hardship – it's all part of the national suicide that is the USA today.broken heart

    Rector

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  • Tue, May 19, 2015 - 10:44pm

    Reply to #17
    Time2help

    Time2help

    Status Platinum Member (Offline)

    Joined: Jun 08 2011

    Posts: 2307

    Yep, we're livin' it

    [quote=Rector]

    This is what "the collapse" looks like, BTW.  A whole series of stupid and entirely avoidable self imposed hardships that utterly screw our civilization.  Between economic, social, cultural, environmental, energy, and political decline – we are doomed.  Pick your favorite self-imposed hardship – it's all part of the national suicide that is the USA today.broken heart

    Rector

    [/quote]

    And I thought I was cheerful crying.

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  • Tue, May 19, 2015 - 10:52pm

    #18

    Arthur Robey

    Status Platinum Member (Offline)

    Joined: Feb 03 2010

    Posts: 1814

    Sexual Vector.

    Date palms developed large spines as a defense against ardent dinosaur herbivores. They are useless against rats. 

    Date palms are also sexual. (The delicately prudent may turn away now.) The thing is, how do I get the pollen from my boy flowers to my girl flowers without blushing?

    It appears as though whatever vector used to do this act is nature is absent, and I have to climb up amongst those dinosaur killing spines and do the deed myself. Who knew that sex could be so painful?

    More dirty deeds

    http://www.discovery.com/tv-shows/dirty-jobs/videos/date-palm-pollinator/

     

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  • Tue, May 19, 2015 - 11:38pm

    Reply to #11

    LesPhelps

    Status Silver Member (Offline)

    Joined: Apr 30 2009

    Posts: 505

    cmartenson wrote:Sweet!   A

    [quote=cmartenson]

    Sweet!   A task force!

    [/quote]

    A government task force that's going to spend government money on habitat, rather than addressing the pesticide issue immediately.  Pesticides will conveniently be left for the next administration to deal with.

    I was really hoping for a honey bee czar to be appointed.

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  • Wed, May 20, 2015 - 12:26am

    #19

    Mark Cochrane

    Status Platinum Member (Offline)

    Joined: May 24 2011

    Posts: 863

    Why are we using this stuff?

    You'd think with the widespread use of the neonicotinoid seed treatments that there must be great benefits to the industrial farmers using the stuff. Well is turns out that the EPA has actually studied the 'benefits' of using this stuff (they apparently don't believe in costs) for soybean production. Note in Chris' article that the Imidacloprid graph soybean (green) shoots up in 2010-2012. Well here are the results quantifying our massive returns for gutting our nation's ecosystems…

    Benefits of Neonicotinoid Seed Treatments to Soybean Production

    EPA analyzed the use of the neonicotinoid seed treatments for insect control in United States soybean production. This report provides the analysis and EPA’s conclusions based on the analysis. It discusses how the treatments are used, available alternatives, and costs.

    EPA concludes that these seed treatments provide little or no overall benefits to soybean production in most situations. Published data indicate that in most cases there is no difference in soybean yield when soybean seed was treated with neonicotinoids versus not receiving any insect control treatment. (link)

    The whole report is on the linked webpage.

    Note, if this stuff kills birds then it is also going to be toxic to us too. We are literally killing ourselves for nothing….

    Mark

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  • Wed, May 20, 2015 - 12:47am

    #20

    Arthur Robey

    Status Platinum Member (Offline)

    Joined: Feb 03 2010

    Posts: 1814

    A fit of giggles.

    Mark, your factette has done me in . I am a fit of incoherent giggles. Killing the planet for digits on a computer? 

    Can it get any more absurd? Please no. I am not offering a challenge to the gods.

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  • Wed, May 20, 2015 - 12:48am

    #21

    blackeagle

    Status Bronze Member (Offline)

    Joined: May 16 2013

    Posts: 233

    a small test...

    I am starting beekeeping this year. I ordered two nucs. It is possible that I get two Caucasian queens – very gentle, winterize in smaller clusters, well adapted to cold climate.

    I did a small experiment this week-end: Put some honey on the patio table and see how does the competition to my future bees looks like. Guess what? In three days nothing. Not a single bee. We have seen some small wasps, but no bee. It could be that it is still early in the Laurentians. Will see in the next weeks…

    We live at more than 10 miles from agricultural zones. We expect that our bees will have a healthy diet. We hope that there is enough nectar supply in the area.

    We also planted a lot of wild flowers around the house and along the street. Not sure if the seeds are coated. There are so small…

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  • Wed, May 20, 2015 - 1:00am

    Reply to #19

    Quercus bicolor

    Status Bronze Member (Offline)

    Joined: Mar 19 2008

    Posts: 288

    Mark Cochrane wrote:Note, if

    [quote=Mark Cochrane]

    Note, if this stuff kills birds then it is also going to be toxic to us too. We are literally killing ourselves for nothing….

    Mark

    [/quote]

    Ah, but Mark – you forgot the profits for the neonicotinoid's manufacturer and created jobs!

    I believe one of the manufacturers – or at least a competitor from the same country also made some good profits manufacturing nerve gas for the Nazi death camps.  Those camps created jobs too!

    Think of all of the profits to be made and jobs to be created from destroying the biosphere and each other! (is there an emoticon for irony and sarcasm? – consider this it)

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  • Wed, May 20, 2015 - 1:01am

    Reply to #19

    Quercus bicolor

    Status Bronze Member (Offline)

    Joined: Mar 19 2008

    Posts: 288

    Mark Cochrane wrote:Note, if

    [quote=Mark Cochrane]

    Note, if this stuff kills birds then it is also going to be toxic to us too. We are literally killing ourselves for nothing….

    Mark

    [/quote]

    Ah, but Mark – you forgot the profits for the neonicotinoid's manufacturer and the jobs created!

    I believe one of the manufacturers of neonics – or at least a competitor from the same country also made some good profits manufacturing nerve gas for the Nazi death camps.  Those camps created jobs too!

    Think of all of the profits to be made and jobs to be created from destroying the biosphere and each other! (is there an emoticon for irony and sarcasm? – consider this it)

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  • Wed, May 20, 2015 - 1:05am

    #22

    blackeagle

    Status Bronze Member (Offline)

    Joined: May 16 2013

    Posts: 233

    A question

    Considering the widespread soil degradation, is it possible to feed the entire world population using natural and sustainable methods? If everyone on this planet decides now (hmmm… Utopia) to walk in the right direction, can we achieve this goal?

    My guess is no. But I could be wrong.

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  • Wed, May 20, 2015 - 1:07am

    Reply to #21
    robie robinson

    robie robinson

    Status Gold Member (Offline)

    Joined: Aug 25 2009

    Posts: 925

    Blackeagle? please,Please,PLEASE

    devour this:  http://www.bushfarms.com/

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  • Wed, May 20, 2015 - 2:36am

    #23
    Philip Anderson

    Philip Anderson

    Status Member (Offline)

    Joined: Mar 01 2009

    Posts: 32

    thanks

    Another amazingly good expression of the truth. Thanks.

    Chris, have you ever looked at the ecological costs of the meat diet /it's unsustainability and destruction of the natural world.  The costs in dollars, in health and suffering of all life are also astronomical. I would like to see your articulation of this truth and expression of your heart in this wise.  The helpless and innocent need champions like you.

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  • Wed, May 20, 2015 - 3:14am

    #24

    LesPhelps

    Status Silver Member (Offline)

    Joined: Apr 30 2009

    Posts: 505

    All levity aside....

    this is just sickening.

    I was ruminating on the majority who, with their heads in the sand, make it possible for abuses like this to continue.  The popular TV show "Walking Dead" came to mind.

    We live in a society of self inflicted walking deadheads.

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  • Wed, May 20, 2015 - 3:50am

    Reply to #24
    Time2help

    Time2help

    Status Platinum Member (Offline)

    Joined: Jun 08 2011

    Posts: 2307

    Deadheads

    [quote=LesPhelps]

    We live in a society of self inflicted walking deadheads.

    [/quote]

    #winning!

    (Edit: Some call it a zombie apocalypse.)

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  • Wed, May 20, 2015 - 4:20am

    Reply to #24
    Time2help

    Time2help

    Status Platinum Member (Offline)

    Joined: Jun 08 2011

    Posts: 2307

    _

    _

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  • Wed, May 20, 2015 - 5:17am

    #25

    Sterling Cornaby

    Status Bronze Member (Offline)

    Joined: Sep 05 2012

    Posts: 150

    Unpleasantness

    Unpleasantness extreme.

    Yet another really quite extreme example of "Man against nature" ideal in our society

    Us killing off insects, such as bees is really pure idiocracy…this terrible movie clip comes to mind

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Vw2CrY9Igs

    I really wish this terrible movie was a bit less prophetic… (Maybe this is similar to the discussion Obama and his advisers are having)

    In more individualistic news, I have found four peach borer larva in my one of my peach tree this week, and slugs ate my cucumber plants this week as well.  I have killed the peach borers and I need to keep them from coming back;  I promised my peach trees I would protect them.   I need to learn to live with the slugs.  I have decided that need more centipedes and beetles to eat the slugs, but I don't know how to do that yet.

    Most information about how to deal with insects is how to poison them.  Kill the all…  

    We really need to learn to work with nature, I am trying but the mindset of "man against nature" is so pervasive.  I read this crazy article and I can see this bad attitude or belief system reflected in me with slugs.  

    Unpleasantness extreme.

    Sterling

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  • Wed, May 20, 2015 - 6:51am

    #26
    Bellinghamster

    Bellinghamster

    Status Member (Offline)

    Joined: Feb 19 2012

    Posts: 26

    Topics not allowed t discuss

    I have always respected this site as one that will step out and discuss topics that mainstream will not give a notable mention to. The chemical soup that we find our selfs in presently is astounding. I think that it is very obvious that we have past the tipping point of climate change and chemical saturation.. I've studied everything I have been able to find and I've done it with an open mind.

    The policies that are in place allow the corruption that runs so deep to repeat all of their lies until they are somewhat accepted in the populace as fact (gagging me with a spoon). It has been extremely hard to listen to friends and family repeat talking points with little to no real education on the subjects.

    We find our selfs in a situation that runs way past the danger point. If we are to leave this planet in any habitual form for our kids or our grand kids we are going to have to make serious sacrifices and complete some very serious civil disobedience.

    The BIG problems come systemically from the entire system we all inhabit. We are attacking climate change and chemical pollution problems not in a progressive way but in a push for more capitalism (carbon tax…ect) rather than less.. The bullshit components of the two party system use either side of the argument only to further an agenda.

    There seems no real effort to find solutions. The government agencies are obviously tied up so thick with bureaucracy they simply cannot do the job in which they were originated to do. The EPA is largely a pawn of industry, a waste of money and a joke. There is no data available for at least 80% of chemicals in commerce. The federal gov National Toxicology Program only tests about 10-20 chemicals a year for carcinogenicity (nothing else), meanwhile 500-1000 new chemicals enter commerce annually, so our knowledge base steadily declines.

    Take a look at the picture for my profile. That was taken on a sunny day above Bellingham bay. Does that look like a natural cloud? It is very upsetting that we cannot even have a conversation about SRMs, stratospheric aerosols, or geoengineering as it is clearly happening everyday, all over the world at least with UN doctrines.

    This is a very good article but we are wasting the very little time we have left pissing in the wind if we do not look up and ask wtf is happening to our sky's. Maybe we need the chemo maybe we don't but I'm loosing my mind watching it happen and watching very little discussion about it because people don't want to be marginalized. 

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  • Wed, May 20, 2015 - 7:03am

    #27

    Mark Cochrane

    Status Platinum Member (Offline)

    Joined: May 24 2011

    Posts: 863

    Synopsis

    All,

    If you want more to read on this subject there is a report "The Impact of the Nation's Most Widely Used Insecticides an Birds". I have snipped out some relative bits below.

    Depending on the specific insecticide, we have found that EPA underestimates toxicity by 1.5 -10 fold if the intent of the exercise is to protect most potentially exposed bird species, and not merely mallards and bobwhites, the two test species.

    The chronic/reproductive toxicity of neonicotinoids to birds is high.

    Indeed, we believe that imidacloprid is too acutely toxic to be used as a seed treatment insecticide on any seed type based on our assessment of its use in cereals and oilseeds.

    A publication currently in press advances the hypothesis that the neonicotinoids are a contributory factor to many wildlife diseases through immune suppression.

    Unfortunately, North American regulators have greatly underestimated the toxicity of imidacloprid and other neonicotinoids to aquatic invertebrates.

    European regulators acknowledge that acute effects are likely at levels exceeding 0.5 ug/l. In contrast, the EPA’s regulatory and non-regulatory reference levels are set at 35 ug/l.

    the mode of action of neonicotinoids, which entails a cumulative irreversible action and delayed effects in invertebrates, as well as their persistence in the environment, makes them particularly worrisome.

    Does anyone else find it concerning that the EPA's regulatory levels for acute toxicity in waterborne imidacloprid (the most common neonocotinoid) is 70 times higher than what is acceptable in Europe? Incidentally, in the report they recommend 0.2 ug/l which is 2.5 times lower than Europe's standard (170 times lower than the US). I sure am glad the EPA is looking out for my health… 

    Mark

     

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  • Wed, May 20, 2015 - 1:08pm

    Reply to #25

    Quercus bicolor

    Status Bronze Member (Offline)

    Joined: Mar 19 2008

    Posts: 288

    Sterling Cornaby wrote:Us

    [quote=Sterling Cornaby]

    Us killing off insects, such as bees is really pure idiocracy…this terrible movie clip comes to mind

    I really wish this terrible movie was a bit less prophetic… (Maybe this is similar to the discussion Obama and his advisers are having)

    In more individualistic news, I have found four peach borer larva in my one of my peach tree this week, and slugs ate my cucumber plants this week as well.  I have killed the peach borers and I need to keep them from coming back;  I promised my peach trees I would protect them.   I need to learn to live with the slugs.  I have decided that need more centipedes and beetles to eat the slugs, but I don't know how to do that yet.

    [/quote]

    It's sad that this clip is so funny.  It would just seem plain old idiotic if there weren't so many people with just such an approach to discussion all around us.

    As for slugs, I hear that Eliot Coleman sets ducks loose in the garden in the fall to control slugs.  I don't know if you can  have them on your property, but maybe you could borrow some each autumn.

    Steve

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  • Wed, May 20, 2015 - 1:28pm

    Reply to #27

    Quercus bicolor

    Status Bronze Member (Offline)

    Joined: Mar 19 2008

    Posts: 288

    Mark Cochrane wrote:European

    [quote=Mark Cochrane]

    European regulators acknowledge that acute effects are likely at levels exceeding 0.5 ug/l. In contrast, the EPA’s regulatory and non-regulatory reference levels are set at 35 ug/l.

    in the report they recommend 0.2 ug/l

    [/quote]

    I certainly do.  Let's find a way to get exactly what 0.5 ug/l. is.  That's 0.5 micrograms per liter or one 2 millionth of a gram per liter or 0.5 parts per billion. Imagine a 1 liter water bottle.  Now, let's assume that imidacloprid is about as dense as water.  A half a microgram would fill a little box 0.1 millimeters on two sides and 0.05 millimeters on the third.  0.05 millimeters, or 50 microns or about the diameter of a human hair.  So take that box that is 2 hair diameters by 2 hair diameters by one hair diameter and dump it into the 1 liter of water.  Can your fingers manage something so small?  Imagine how quickly it disappears in the water.  To get 0.2 ug/l. we have 1 hair diameter by 1 hair diameter by 1.6 hair diameters.  Maybe the size of a speck of dust.  Anything more than that in your water bottle is dangerous!

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  • Wed, May 20, 2015 - 2:45pm

    Reply to #24

    Dogs_In_A_Pile

    Status Platinum Member (Offline)

    Joined: Jan 04 2009

    Posts: 820

    Some levity reinjected....

    YtBHs[quote=LesPhelps]

    We live in a society of self inflicted walking deadheads.

    [/quote]

    By 'deadheads', I'm assuming (hoping) you don't mean 'Dead heads'

    Although some of them are some of them….skip ahead to 3:38 for Exhibit A

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fLeGuHzs5WE

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  • Wed, May 20, 2015 - 3:10pm

    Reply to #26

    Dogs_In_A_Pile

    Status Platinum Member (Offline)

    Joined: Jan 04 2009

    Posts: 820

    Holler for Bellinghamster...

    Bellinghamster – WA state I'm assuming?  We loved it out there….was stationed over on the Kitsap side in Silverdale while my submarine was going through a refueling overhaul in Bremerton…I digress.

    There are a few threads floating around that have broached the topic of your concern.

    As you would expect, some posts are short on fact and long on belief/emotion.  You've probably seen the video clip of the plane "spraying something" from the trailing edge of its wings.  Even after a pilot came in and explained that it was wingtip vortices from that flaps he was dismissed as being on the dark side.  People see what they want to see.

    As long as the discussion and exchanges are respectful and reasonably polite, I wouldn't worry about being marginalized.  Many end up in an "agree to disagree" status.

    To answer your question, looking at your profile pic, I see what happens when the water vapor in jet exhaust mixes with -60 degree air at 34,000 feet.  From that standpoint it is not a "natural" cirrus cloud, but it is, simply, ice.

     

     

    The following links to a NASA site showing where conditions are favorable for contrail formation.

    http://cloudsgate2.larc.nasa.gov/cgi-bin/site/showdoc?docid=33&cmd=latest

    This link goes to a NOAA site showing satellite water vapor imagery.

    http://contrailscience.com/contrail-forecast/

    Combining the two you can see that the Kansas-Oklahoma-Missouri-Arkansas region has conditions favoring contrail formation between 225-150 mb, which is an altitude range of 36,200 – 44,300 feet.  Add in the water vapor map and what you end up with is favorable conditions for formation of contrails that will linger and spread due to higher water vapor in the air and cooling from the formation of cirrus clouds (ice) from the water in the jet exhaust.

    Here are the links to the existing threads….you may find them helpful.  There's an expected mix of science, psuedoscience, fact and belief/emotion.

    https://www.peakprosperity.com/forum/what-world-are-they-spraying/39897

    https://www.peakprosperity.com/forum/84763/chemtrails-real

    I'm off the grid for the rest of the week, but will check back when I return.  Nothing like a week in the Shenandoahs to reflect on Memorial Day and my fellow brothers and sisters in arms who didn't come home.

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  • Wed, May 20, 2015 - 3:53pm

    #28
    jandeligans

    jandeligans

    Status Member (Offline)

    Joined: Dec 21 2011

    Posts: 27

    Why is Europe so much more advanced than the US?

    An excellent article in the Guardian that echoes Chris' article:

    http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2015/may/19/white-house-plan-honeybees-pollinators-pesticides

    It bluntly states:

    "But the plan announced on Tuesday falls short in one capacity that has environmental groups up in arms. It does not ban the use of any form of toxic pesticides, despite a large body of scientific research showing many of them – specifically neonicotinoids, or “neonics” – to be closely linked to widespread bee life loss."

    And notice that the only support for Obama's plan comes from the chemical industry:

    "the Associated Press reported that CropLife America, a trade association representing the pesticide industry, had praised the strategy for its “multi-pronged coordinated approach”."

    And notably the article singles out treated or coated seeds as an important hidden danger:

    "A recent study published in Environmental Science and Technology suggested pesticide prevalence, specifically of the neonicotinoid kind, had been grossly underestimated because previous counts (including those undertaken by governmental agencies) failed to include seed treatment – a new prophylactic method introduced at the beginning of last decade that ensures seeds are sprayed before they are even planted.

    At least 79% of American maize fields have been planted with preemptively treated seeds, the study found.

    Traditional farmers who are conscious to the survival of bees and who want to avoid neonics are finding it difficult to obtain uncoated seeds in the marketplace, Tiffany Finck-Haynes, a food futures campaigner with Friends of the Earth, said."

    All the articles I saw in the US press just gave one anti paragraph followed by one pro paragraph creating absolutely no clarity at all. This is the false fairness issue that supposedly gives each side of a controversy equal weight – no matter which side has the facts on their side. Facts and opinions are equal in America. Europeans give more weight to the facts. 

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  • Wed, May 20, 2015 - 5:27pm

    #29

    Mark Cochrane

    Status Platinum Member (Offline)

    Joined: May 24 2011

    Posts: 863

    Worth repeating!

    Jandeligans said:

    Facts and opinions are equal in America.

    You have put your finger on the very nature of so many problems that are emanating from the United States. When exactly did reality go out of vogue? Who are you going to believe, the corporate/government propaganda or your lying eyes? We are sleepwalking into oblivion…

    Mark

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  • Wed, May 20, 2015 - 7:29pm

    #30
    jgritter

    jgritter

    Status Bronze Member (Offline)

    Joined: Dec 13 2011

    Posts: 161

    Could it be worse then reported?

    The article refers to "bees per square meter".  Last year, with 2 hives on my 1/2 acre parcel, you might see a dozen bees representing 3 different species in a one meter square of flowering plants on a warm, sunny day.  This year, with both hives having failed to over winter, I have seen 2 bees on the 1/2 acre, so far this spring.  One honey bee, one bumble bee, no mason bees.  I have a large Lilac out side my back door.  Last year, with 2 active hives, the thing literally hummed with activity, this year, no bees at all. 

    Obviously my observations are anecdotal and not scientific, but it is unsettling to think that all the bees I've gotten used to seeing over the past several years may have been my own.  I never occurred to me that there might not be any more wild bees in my area.

    From my middle of North America perspective, the collapse of ocean ecosystems is sort of academic.  To realize that the ecosystems in my own back yard my be collapsing makes it very real.

    John G

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  • Thu, May 21, 2015 - 12:48am

    #31
    robie robinson

    robie robinson

    Status Gold Member (Offline)

    Joined: Aug 25 2009

    Posts: 925

    I love it, Mark

    "Sleep walking into oblivion!"

    obtw, "not this white boy"  my mare is being settled

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  • Thu, May 21, 2015 - 2:08pm

    #32

    pyranablade

    Status Member (Offline)

    Joined: Nov 08 2010

    Posts: 219

    I still have lots of bumblebees

    I'm seeing lots of bumblebees this spring on my city lot in Wisconsin. They love all the perennials. I suppose we're now in a Kunslterian world where the farms are a monocultural-industrial complex, the suburbs are Monsanto-friendly districts, and the last refuges for birds and butterflies are within city blocks. I'm exaggerating, of course. But the powers that be are paving the way for it.

     

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  • Thu, May 21, 2015 - 4:04pm

    #33

    herewego

    Status Bronze Member (Offline)

    Joined: Aug 11 2010

    Posts: 132

    One bumblebee so far

    This year I have seen one bumble bee, two other bees and one hummingbird.  Four pollinators.  It has been unseasonably warm and sunny with blossoms of all kinds everywhere.  The silence is horrifying.  Even the wasp nest over my door, whose inhabitants were so gentle I had not brought myself to destroy their nest, has gone lifeless.  I think they are gone for good. 

    I am still mostly working on building enough soil to garden and other infrastructure projects.  I thought I'd figure out how to support pollinators later.  Looks like later is already gone.  Will my baby fruit trees (loaded with blossoms this year) be able to set anything? 

    Mason bees next spring.  Bee-food plants now, if I can find any annuals that will flower starting so late.

    Good to be in such company as yourselves, with people who will let the pain of this register within us and provoke deeper insight and action.

    Susan

     

     

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  • Fri, May 22, 2015 - 2:41am

    #34

    Mark Cochrane

    Status Platinum Member (Offline)

    Joined: May 24 2011

    Posts: 863

    One bumble bee today and one swallowtail this spring

    Loads of lilacs and other flowers but a dearth of insects even on the warm days so far. I planted the tomatoes in the garden today but I am wondering if we will have to hand pollinate this year…

    One of the hardest hit birds is the ring-necked pheasant. In my county the numbers were down 80% over the 10 year average in 2013 and 'recovered' to be only 70% down last year. I wonder what this year will bring?

    Mark

     

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  • Fri, May 22, 2015 - 2:01pm

    #35

    pyranablade

    Status Member (Offline)

    Joined: Nov 08 2010

    Posts: 219

    Censorship of Scientists on this Issue?

    This was posted on Google+ by Barb MacMaster

     

    Are Scientists Exposing Bee Death Epidemic Facing Censorship and Threats? http://b4in.org/tKlo

    A formal letter to the United States Department of Agriculture reports that scientists are being harassed and their research on bee-killing pesticides is being censored or suppressed by the Monsanto-infiltrated agency (the USDA). Surprised, anyone?

    At least we are organizing formally against a scourge that has been painfully obvious for years now. A broad coalition of farmers, environmentalists, fisheries and food-safety organizations (over 25 citizens’ groups) urged an investigation into the USDA’s support of the chemical industry over the American public in a May 5 letter sent to Phyllis K. Fong, USDA Inspector General.

    It states:

    “The possibility that the USDA is prioritizing the interests of the chemical industry over those of the American public is unacceptable.”

    Hear. Hear. (“Hear, all ye good people, hear what this brilliant and eloquent speaker has to say!” )

    The group is concerned that a forthcoming report by the White House Task Force on Pollinator Health, which is co-chaired by the USDA, is compromised. The signatories of the letter to the USDA include the American Bird Conservancy, Avaaz, Center for Biological Diversity, Center for Food Safety, Farmworkers Association of Florida, Food and Water Watch, Friends of the Earth, Green America, Organic Consumers Association and Sierra Club.

    Could it be? Yes, it certainly could be – here’s why:

    More ttp://b4in.org/tKlo

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  • Fri, May 22, 2015 - 5:47pm

    #36

    blackeagle

    Status Bronze Member (Offline)

    Joined: May 16 2013

    Posts: 233

    A world without bees?

    We will never be as efficient as the bees… They deserve our commitment to protect them.

    (Image source here)

    And when scientists are muzzled… CBC News… population in general is misinformed by the crooks who can speak.

     

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  • Fri, May 22, 2015 - 6:34pm

    #37
    Time2help

    Time2help

    Status Platinum Member (Offline)

    Joined: Jun 08 2011

    Posts: 2307

    To bee or not to bee

    [quote]Pollinators are what ecologists call keystone species. You know how an arch has a keystone. It's the one stone that keeps the two halves of the arch together. […] If you remove the keystone, the whole arch collapses.[/quote]

        -May Berenbaum, PhD, Entomologist. From Silence of the Bees, PBS Nature.

    [quote]“If the bee disappeared off the surface of the globe, then man would have only four years of life left. No more bees, no more pollination, no more plants, no more animals, no more man.”[/quote]

        -Albert Einstein

    [quote]To a Honey Bee Who Hath Drunk Too Much Wine and Drowned

    Thou born to sip the lake or spring,
    Or quaff the waters of the stream,
    Why hither come on vagrant wing?—
    Does Bacchus tempting seem—
    Did he, for you, the glass prepare?—
    Will I admit you to a share?
    Did storms harass or foes perplex,
    Did wasps or king-birds bring dismay—
    Did wars distress, or labours vex,
    Or did you miss your way?—
    A better seat you could not take
    Than on the margin of this lake.[/quote]

        -Philip Morin Freneau, 1806 

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  • Sat, May 23, 2015 - 3:16am

    Reply to #35

    Arthur Robey

    Status Platinum Member (Offline)

    Joined: Feb 03 2010

    Posts: 1814

    Was Pol Pot a futurist?

    A formal letter to the United States Department of Agriculture reports that scientists are being harassed and their research on bee-killing pesticides is being censored or suppressed by the Monsanto-infiltrated agency.

    A hard stone forms in my heart chakra on reading your words, Blade. I do hope the pasty faced desk jockeys who are driving the harassment have considered all the consequences carefully.

    Pol Pot may have been a bit ahead of his time when he emptied the cities and consigned the bureaucrats to till the fields. The Limits to Growth curves imply that he was.

    Do they wish to add "pollen vector" to their resumes?

    EDIT: You don't like the question? I don't like having to pose it.

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  • Sat, May 23, 2015 - 3:46am

    #38

    Arthur Robey

    Status Platinum Member (Offline)

    Joined: Feb 03 2010

    Posts: 1814

    The Ligurian Bee's Last Stand.

    On Kangaroo Island.

     

    The Ligurian bees on Kangaroo Island are believed to be the last remaining pure stock of this bee found anywhere in the world.
     
     In the early 1880's Ligurian bees were imported by the South Australian Chamber of Manufacturers. The Ligurian bee was named for its origin in the Ligurian Alps in the days of the Roman Empire. Roman historians praised its docility and productivity. The scientific name of this species is Apis mellifera ligustica.
     
    Better get yours now before "you know who" sees a $10 profit over there.

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  • Sat, May 23, 2015 - 5:04pm

    Reply to #19

    Mark_BC

    Status Bronze Member (Offline)

    Joined: Apr 30 2010

    Posts: 341

    Just wait till eating organic

    Just wait till eating organic is made illegal and deemed a terrorist act for being antisocial to the Borg collective. That'll probably come about the same time using cash will be made illegal.

    On a positive note I arrived at my mom's house on Vancouver Island yesterday in the Pacific Northwest and right away saw 2 honeybees on the raspberries! I guess an ocean of weather from the west tends to clean out the pesticides a bit.

    [quote=Quercus bicolor]

    Think of all of the profits to be made and jobs to be created from destroying the biosphere and each other! 

    [/quote]

    Just another example of the failure of modern economics to deal with the most basic of challenges. I always harp on this, but at its root all money (and thus profit) is a claim on ecological production. It is illogical to destroy the ecosystem in the pursuit of profit which is actually just a claim on that very ecosystem's functions. There is a parallel with the imminent demise of the US dollar. Soon any dollar profits you make won't buy you much of anything because the ecosystem they currently lay claim to is being (has been) destroyed.

    But according to mainstream economics there is no ecosystem, just "producers" and "consumers". The ecosystem is deemed to be an "externality", an afterthought that some person in power might take pity on and decide to tweak things a little bit to protect in the interests of Smokey the Bear and summer vacationers desiring a pretty place to go camping. Mainstream economics has barely advanced in a century and any advances it has made have taken us in the wrong direction, further entrenching the Keynesian model's denial of the real world outside of textbooks.

    At least in ecological economics there is an ecosystem that provides essential services to the economy but it's still separate from the economy. In thermo-economics the economy is actually a part of the ecosystem. It is so obvious that when you destroy the ecosystem you inevitably destroy the economy; I don't understand how any moderately awake person could deny this. Money is a social construct and without a functioning ecosystem money and people will cease to exist; seems to be the way we're headed. When the dollar dies so too will the USA. Both are now inevitable.

    I like following Dave Kranzler of Investment Research Dynamics because back in the 90's he was also a Wall Street scumbag and he admits it and openly talks about how money corrupts. But he realized it, got out, and now criticizes it.

    [quote=Chris Martenson]

    As long as people are kept fed, entertained, and told that everything is awesome, then practically nobody bothers to lift their head and look around.

    [/quote]

    And that's only made possible because of the US trade deficit and reserve status of the dollar. You can understand why TPTB fight so hard to prop this system up since when the dollar goes a lot of people aren't going to be fed anymore or be entertained with the latest gadgets from China and then questions might start being asked by the average Joe.

    It's been lamented by so many here, but it is truly amazing to see in people I know, nice intelligent people who want to do the right thing, the pathological resistance to even looking at evidence or narratives that might call into question their faith in the mainstream. It is just so addictive to them, I guess you could say comforting, they just will not open up to the possibility. One of my best friends thinks I'm a crazy about 9/11. For years they've told me I'm crazy yet they refuse to look at the evidence, but they're certain I'm wrong. He suggested I watch the Southpark episode which he believes debunks the 9/11 truthers… I of course did that and yet months later now he refuses to spend half an hour looking at a basic youtube video on 9/11. He always comes up with an excuse: "not today". I suggest that it's because he's afraid the evidence will be undeniable and he'll have to change his world view, which he then vehemently denies. Then why won't you spend half an hour, Mike? I did it for you. It's because deep down he knows I'm right but doesn't want to admit it, plus he'd rather go on denying the sky is blue than admit that I was right all along regardless of what I'm saying… No one likes a told'ya so.

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  • Sat, May 23, 2015 - 9:30pm

    #39

    CleanEnergyFan

    Status Member (Offline)

    Joined: Jan 29 2012

    Posts: 107

    Where ARE the documented economic and health benefits of organic

    To Time2Helps link above as well as Chris' comments, why IS it so hard to simply get factual information on these very important issues?  The Organics article in LA Times is one example (why is it so hard to quantify the benefits of Organics)?  If we were to prioritize our food budget (and holistically consider the potential savings in medical costs), which foods should we preferentially focus on to buy the organic version?  What in the world is wrong with our media and our government agencies and our educational institutions?   Producing fact based info should be their primary product/benefit to society (ie simply insure we have accurate unbiased info so we can make rational informed decisions AND insure we have incentives aligned with the common good). Clearly we have to make the effort to educate ourselves as it's obvious our educational system and media and govt will not do that for us. I personally rely on the private sector (folks like Chris and PP and other sources I trust) to help ferritt through all the noise and BS to pull together fact based info in a meaningful way. Maybe instead of relying on the EPA and USDA etc to "protect" our health interests, some type of private rating agencies might evolve based on a market need for holistic factual info that can give us guidance about what products/services to buy or avoid.   

    P.S.  Love the idea of a new narrative and a new Constitution Chris….our money & value systems are clearly not oriented toward "Peak Prosperity" or a world worth inheriting.  Sorry I missed that part of the side conversation at Rowe but hope to be part of the next one. 

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  • Sun, May 24, 2015 - 11:45am

    Reply to #39

    Oliveoilguy

    Status Silver Member (Offline)

    Joined: Jun 29 2012

    Posts: 580

    Health Benefits of Organic

    [quote=CleanEnergyFan]

     (why is it so hard to quantify the benefits of Organics)?  If we were to prioritize our food budget (and holistically consider the potential savings in medical costs), which foods should we preferentially focus on to buy the organic version?  

    [/quote]

    Here is some info from "The Organic Center". They have scientists on staff and are trying to present factual info about the benefits of Organic Foods. https://www.organic-center.org/organic-fact-sheets/top-12-reasons-to-go-organic/

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  • Sun, May 24, 2015 - 1:18pm

    #40

    Rodney7777

    Status Member (Offline)

    Joined: Jul 16 2012

    Posts: 20

    disaster or design

        I just finished a 3 month on line permaculture course.  

        On page 57 of Bill Mollison's ( the person that coined the word permaculture ) permaculture design, manual, he says that as future designers, that are attempting to care for the planet, "we can do no worse than the designs around us". 

         I see some positive changes coming up.  Here are the first three.

        I am now convinced that we can "design"  a path that will lead us away from disaster by following permaculture principles.

        As to energy, over 2 years ago, Ray Kurzweil, chief engineer for Google, was saying that almost 1% of the worlds solar electrical energy was then coming from the sun and it that number doubles every 2 years.  It is now 2 years since I first heard that and I have found out that output is now at about 2%. meaning that his prediction is right on track.  Doing a little math then in 2027 we will have 128% of the worlds energy supplied by solar.   All remaining metals, factories, financing and fuels should be put to work to achieve this end.  Cheap, clean, local, and abundant energy will change the world for the better.

        We are going to need hemp production to be allowed again in the U S.  With way over 50% of the     U S population in favor of repealing the crazy marijuanna and industrial hemp laws, so I see a time ahead when people can grow their own houses (industrial hemp can be used to make structural members, basement blocks, insulation and roofing) and grow their own fuel ( up to 200 gallons of hemp oil per acre) to fuel anything with a diesel engine.

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  • Sun, May 24, 2015 - 2:17pm

    Reply to #22

    Rodney7777

    Status Member (Offline)

    Joined: Jul 16 2012

    Posts: 20

    yes you can feed the world

    The answer to your question is yes.   Not only that systems can be designed to produce abundant foods for generations to come.

    Permaculture instructors have said this and they have said that we will only need 4% of the land currently under cultivation to produce the same amount of nutrition as 100% of our current production.

    Check out youtube for     Geoff Lawton greening an oasis and watch him turn a desert into a garden in just 4 years.

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  • Sun, May 24, 2015 - 2:36pm

    Reply to #39
    jandeligans

    jandeligans

    Status Member (Offline)

    Joined: Dec 21 2011

    Posts: 27

    Look at the problem holistically....

    "If we were to prioritize our food budget (and holistically consider the potential savings in medical costs), which foods should we preferentially focus on to buy the organic version?"

    You are right to point out that whether or not organic food is worth the extra cost is a holistic issue. I think you can get all the data you want at The Rodale Institute which has been studying this comparison for years and clearly points out the superior health value of the organic not to mention the presence of extremely untested chemicals present in the not organic. And their current studies are pointing out that GMO has no advantage at all.

    But even if the health value was still in debate – holistically thinking we are subsidizing and encouraging the disastrous ecological effects and social effects of Big Ag chemical monocropping when we buy it. We might as well send a check directly to Monsanto and say "Good Work!". We vote with our dollars.  When we buy the Big Ag food, we are supporting all those practices which are hurting the bees, polluting water, destroying soil, creating massive international cartels of destroying farmer's rights to control their own seeds, etc etc etc. So step one, everyone who is even remotely awake – be determined that your money will not go to support this damage.

    So my point is that looking at it holistically you have to look beyond your budget and even your own health and look at how these Big Ag products are produced in a way that is so harmful to the ecology and the jobs situation that it is not advisable to support it. Then get creative and do the work to find sources that are growing healthy food and healthy lives and support that. That way, the market grows and young people starting out in holistic healthy growing practices will have a market. We who came through adulthood with much greater opportunities to create good retirement incomes (I'm 67) I think owe the young people of today that we won't support damaging Big Ag and will instead buy our food from the Farmers Markets, the Co-ops, directly from farms and at the very least the Organic certified. That way a transition to truly healthy farming becomes possible. 

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  • Sun, May 24, 2015 - 2:43pm

    Reply to #40

    Chris Martenson

    Status Platinum Member (Offline)

    Joined: Jun 07 2007

    Posts: 4969

    Watch the numbers...

    [quote=Rodney7777]

        As to energy, over 2 years ago, Ray Kurzweil, chief engineer for Google, was saying that almost 1% of the worlds solar electrical energy was then coming from the sun and it that number doubles every 2 years.  It is now 2 years since I first heard that and I have found out that output is now at about 2%. meaning that his prediction is right on track.  Doing a little math then in 2027 we will have 128% of the worlds energy supplied by solar.   All remaining metals, factories, financing and fuels should be put to work to achieve this end.  Cheap, clean, local, and abundant energy will change the world for the better.

    [/quote]

    Rodney, I agree with the other parts of what you wrote, but be careful following the extravagant claims of Kurzweil…he has a habit of mixing things up for people in ways that end up seeming purposely confusing and overly optimistic.

    To begin, there is a huuUUUuuuge difference between getting 100% of your electricity needs from renewables vs getting 100% of your energy needs.

    Electricity is roughly 1/2 of our total primary energy consumption, with the other half being petroleum and natgas used for transportation and other industrial purposes.

    Renewables do not yet make any sort of a dent in those uses.  At all.  As in essentially zero.

    You can double solar and wind farms to your heart's content and not change a thing in that equation.

    Next,  the idea that one can simply continue to double difficult-to-scale industrial manufacturing and installation processes forever and without any difficulties is incredibly unrealistic.  Mr Kurzweil has not spent enough time in manufacturing processes, I suspect, to appreciate the realities involved.

    There are many considerations that pop up at scale and we do ourselves no favors by ignoring them including manufacturing capacity, rare element scarcity, lack of appropriate electricity storage at scale, and capital requirements just to name a few.  

    Just for wind, consider this:

    Worldwide, 32,850 wind turbines with 70 to 100 meter blades generating 1.65 MW built every year for the next 50 years, or 1,642,000 total would be needed to replace the oil we burn in one year at a cost of 3.3 trillion dollars.

    The limits to growth due to lack of material resources, such as shortages of steel, rare earth metals, cement, and so on would be reached long before then.

    The DOE estimates there are 18,000 square miles of good wind sites in the USA, which could produce 20% of America’s electricity in total. This would require over 140,000 1.5 MW towers costing at least $300 billion dollars, and innumerable natural gas peaking plants to balance the load when the wind isn’t blowing. Natural gas production is likely to peak as soon as 2018 and we don’t have the LNG facilities to import NG from other countries, and NG is finite, even LNG imports are temporary.

    There isn’t enough dispatchable renewable power from pumped hydro storage, biomass, or Compressed Air Energy storage to provide peak power and bulk storage either.

    (Source)

    I'm not saying it cannot be done, or that it shouldn't be done, just that I am allergic to the oft-repeated Kurzweil claim that repeatedly doubling renewables installations is somehow akin to doubling transistors on a micro chip.

    Moore's law cannot and should not be extended to large scale, real-world energy issues.  It's inappropriate on a lot of levels but perhaps the most insidious is that it tends to provide some individuals with an 'escape hatch' from the possibility that we cannot maintain and extend our comfortable, easy lifestyles without some serious efforts, prioritizations, and difficult trade-offs.

    I'm all for having the conversation(s), but we need to be realistic…and Kurzweil is anything but in this regard.

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  • Sun, May 24, 2015 - 4:10pm

    #41

    davefairtex

    Status Diamond Member (Offline)

    Joined: Sep 03 2008

    Posts: 3322

    cheap electricity

    So while I agree electricity on its own can't replace liquid fuel, and that there are resource limits (silver, for one, likely silicon for another) that would probably cap the growth rate after a few more doublings, there are a number of processes that, under conditions of almost-free electricity, would be able to generate liquid fuel.

    Take hydrogen, for one.  If electricity were almost-free, a hydrogen economy might well be practical.   There are significant energy losses in changing from electricity to hydrogen, but if electricity is almost free, nobody really cares.  That might fix the ground transport problem.

    Or some other processes, which require electricity to split off carbon from oxygen to construct synthetic crude.  Syncrude fixes the air and sea travel problem.

    I think if electric power (via solar, or other intermittent power sources) ever does become "too cheap to meter" we will figure out ways to economically generate liquid fuels from that ultra-cheap electric power.  It will need time to be ramped up, so it might not happen in time to retain our current lifestyle (a la Hirsch report) but it might end up making a big difference 10-20 years out.

    Just my thought.

    Here's a chart of the growth in electrical generation in the US, run through a 12 point MA (w/o the MA, its pretty choppy).  Even with the MA, its not particularly steady, and it probably requires finance to remain in place to keep moving higher, at least at the current payoff rates.

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  • Mon, May 25, 2015 - 12:20am

    #42

    blackeagle

    Status Bronze Member (Offline)

    Joined: May 16 2013

    Posts: 233

    The world after humans...

    For a smile (with a touch of cynicism)

    This is a conversation between two flies, in a world dominated by flies:

    – Flie 1: Okay… we are now very intelligent. We are perfecting everything. We evolve….Heated homes and lighting all night, we got accustomed quickly… but, I am starting asking myself if we will stop on time…  in clear, I an afraid that we are making the same mistakes as Them. Everyone knows that it is Their progress that finally destroyed Them, those idiots! 

    – Flie 2: Ho! Hey! Don't insult Them… think about all those nice cities They left us…

    Cartoon by Franquin.

    Worth getting the book (It is in French. The English version was never printed). A lot of its content is so true.

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  • Mon, May 25, 2015 - 2:20am

    Reply to #26
    Bellinghamster

    Bellinghamster

    Status Member (Offline)

    Joined: Feb 19 2012

    Posts: 26

    Connect your dots..

    .. And I will continue to connect mine. I've read a great number of your posts and replies on this site and first of I respect your level of integrity and specialized knowledge of certain subjects. My brother is a chief in the navy and get the same reactions and replies from him as well. As for the nasa explanations of the subject they can go in a pile with the rest of the bs crap that been handed down by all the rest of anyone funded by government. If you are giving me a holler to passively suggest that spraying does not occur then ok. Your entitled to your 'educated' opinion. I have been a pilot long enough, have enough pilot friends that fly commercially and militarily, to know better than water vapor. I'm assuming you think the rise in aluminum, strontium and barium in the snow pack in mt. Shasta is natural ? Or the fact that the water vapor trails shut off and on suddenly in the same path in abrupt lines is natural as well. One of our greatest problems today is in accepting that the entire narrative and core beliefs we have in authority will be challenged like never before. I know with your background that will be extremely difficult to swallow. There are already patents for this material and patents for the methods of injection. If we are so trusting in the powers that we believe they will ask us if, when and how they can do something well… We have already lost. It is very clear to me what is happening on a daily basis as it is to a great number of people all across the world. There is no doubt in my mind that we ( UN ) are spraying.  You have got to accept the fact that the military wishes to own the weather patterns for a number of different reasons. You also must accept that the military industrial complex that ultimately rules our world is not there for the benefit of society but rather it's ultimate and unadulterated control. Do we now doubt the use of operations not declared by our trusted governments? 

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  • Mon, May 25, 2015 - 6:46am

    Reply to #26
    Bellinghamster

    Bellinghamster

    Status Member (Offline)

    Joined: Feb 19 2012

    Posts: 26

    Once you go forward...

    You never go back. I'm assuming that you are telling me that there is no "stratospheric aerosol program" or such a thing as the conspiracy ridden label of chemtrails..? What was Iran's latest discussion on the floor of the United Nations openly describing weather manipulation about? I am defiantly not worried about being marginalized, the comment was directed at this sites, as well as many others, ability to discuss a topic without becoming marginalized. I was not in fact complaining, yet explaining my understanding. The cloud you see in my profile picture was not more than 2000 feet above sea level. There is an astounding break in one of the clouds, as If the conditions you describe required for persistent contrails seems to be in the shape of a wall, then abruptly starts again. Look the problem here is that your clear 'factually' stated explanations of what these 'phenomenon' are, are the most openly stated rebuttal of the argument. The truth is in fact that our sky's are clouded in this crap daily. You speak to me as if I've seen one video and a couple pictures and I 'see what I want to believe'. I guess I don't see the sky go from blue to hazy white with my own eyes on a massive amount of days here in the Pacific Northwest. This is not something I wanted to believe. The thing I've realized is once someone decides to do their proper research without the constraints of a failed belief system maybe they will find the truth. Maybe they won't. The point is we need massive change and that change is not the political crap that Obama or the like speak of. It's a barn fire. Or else we are [email protected]&d. This article is about pesticides. climate engineering is the most powerful and utilized weapon of the western power structure to destabilize and topple governments and countries around the globe. This military industrial complex has always sought to control the weather. To say this is not happening is absurd. Pesticides are bad yes, but this chemical dump that is used to control weather patterns and God knows what else is the worse crime against humanity ever perpetuated. You never find anyone that finds out this is a real issue and goes back the other way to say, wait.. Wait your right, chemtrails don't exist. I was wrong… 

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  • Mon, May 25, 2015 - 2:51pm

    #43

    Mark_BC

    Status Bronze Member (Offline)

    Joined: Apr 30 2010

    Posts: 341

    Help with funding ad at

    Help with funding ad at Bayer's meeting in Germany.

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  • Mon, May 25, 2015 - 3:35pm

    Reply to #26

    Mark_BC

    Status Bronze Member (Offline)

    Joined: Apr 30 2010

    Posts: 341

    Chemtrails

    [quote=Bellinghamster]

    I'm assuming that you are telling me that there is no "stratospheric aerosol program" or such a thing as the conspiracy ridden label of chemtrails..? 

    [/quote]

    I've spent a lot of time on Youtube, the home of all conspiracy theories from the whacko to the well supported rational ones, and I haven't been able to find any evidence supporting the existence of chemtrails, nor of any plausible motive or mechanism of action explaining why the government is supposedly doing this.

    There are two general lines of "evidence" presented in support of chemtrails. One is all the contrails planes leave behind, which they have been doing ever since planes took to the air… These are actually just trails of water condensation from the engines' combustion, like the cloud that is left by your car on a cold morning, or your breath. The reason they linger around longer in the sky is because the air is so thin up there that it takes a while for the ice crystals to sublimate. Some videos show jets clearly turning their chemtrail makers on and off, or as you observe, the chemtrails just stopping as if hitting a wall. But this is due to encountering different atmospheric conditions and closer inspection reveals that this supposed turning on and off coincides exactly with the different turbulent clouds that the plane is flying through, meaning that the plane experiences areas of high and low humidity, and in high humidity in the clouds, the exhaust creates condensation and when not in the cloud the humidity is lower and the water vapour from the exhaust does not condense out.

    The other line of "evidence" supporting chemtrails is all the heavy metal contaminants scientists are now measuring and increased rates of Alzeimer's. Well it's a pretty big leap in logic to observe heavy metals in the environment and then use that to conclude that the government is spraying us all with contaminants in an effort to control our minds or give us cancer or change the weather or what have you! Firstly, I did a basic calculation using aluminum concentrations (50 ug/l) given by a scientist at a panel in Sacramento I think it was, talking about all the aluminum and barium nanoparticles in the environment at Mt Shasta, and to get those levels you are looking at the entire world's industrial production of aluminum sprayed over just the western US, needing millions of flights a year given a typical jet's payload. Furthermore, where is the evidence for all these jets modified with these special tanks required to haul thousands of gallons of stuff up there? You'd think that with all the tens of thousands of airplane mechanics in the world tending to these millions of flights that someone would have seen something and posted it to Youtube? But nothing… Actually, all jets do have big tanks for hauling thousands of gallons, they are in their wings and they carry jet fuel…

    What's actually happening is probably smog drifting over from China, weather moves west to east, from all their coal power plants and other industrial pollution. But that rational explanation is never put forward, only crazy conspiracy theories purporting the government is doing secret ops to manipulate the environment for some unknown reason, to control our minds and do experiments on us for some other unknown reason, using unknown mechanisms, without any evidence or whistleblowers other than white lines in the skies.

    Is the government involved in weather modification schemes? Well given the droughts much of the world is experiencing, I'd be surprise if they weren't, and there is lots of evidence that rain can be seeded with spraying certain things in the atmosphere but not at anywhere near the concentrations people are observing, and they don't use aluminum and barium "nanoparticles" for this, they use trace amounts of silver iodide. And I've even heard it purported that these chemtrails are responsible for the climate change we are experiencing, that the droughts are being caused intentionally by the government to reduce the population! Well, ummm, maybe the climate is changing because of the billions of tons of CO2 and other greenhouse gases being dumped in the atmosphere, just like scientists have been warning for decades! But that explanation would just be too rational.

    These chemtrail conspiracy theories IMO do damage to the alternative movement because they discredit the legitimate conspiracy theories by alienating a lot of people who might otherwise look at evidence supporting the real conspiracies going on out there. Then automatically everyone who believes in any conspiracy is branded a tinfoil hat whacko. But me, I follow where the evidence leads me, wherever that goes. There is heaps of evidence supporting the existence of financial conspiracies that go to the top leadership of the world, you'd have to be in complete denial to argue against that, but there is no evidence supporting chemtrails and only solid science explaining the existence of contrails.

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  • Mon, May 25, 2015 - 3:42pm

    #44

    sand_puppy

    Status Platinum Member (Offline)

    Joined: Apr 13 2011

    Posts: 2083

    Local Climate Engineering by Humans

    Bellinghamster,  I just want to reassure you that you are not the only one here with these impressions and suspicions–that climate is being modified locally by atmospheric spraying, and that those doing it are not interested in helping the common person.  And I understand that once one's conclusions "gel" around the reality of atmospheric spaying for power and profit, it is very reasonable to be outraged.

    Historically, discussion this topic has been so full of vitriol and so light on science (and perhaps because they were not championed by an "authority") that discussion has come to little benefit.  Kind of like debating abortion.  Lots of sparks, nothing beneficial.  Mostly just drives people away from the website. I have also found that a post on geoengineering will bring out trolls–people who never post here on any topic but that one.  (I have the impression of an organized PR team for hire.) 

    Cognitive Dissonance, a very smart guy, thinks your concerns are correct.

    You are not alone.  And outrage sounds right.

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  • Mon, May 25, 2015 - 5:46pm

    Reply to #44

    Mark_BC

    Status Bronze Member (Offline)

    Joined: Apr 30 2010

    Posts: 341

    sand_puppy

    [quote=sand_puppy]

    Historically, discussion this topic has been so full of vitriol and so light on science (and perhaps because they were not championed by an "authority") that discussion has come to little benefit.  Kind of like debating abortion.

    [/quote]

    But it's nothing like abortion, abortion is a moral debate. Chemtrails is a scientific debate that has only one real answer — right or wrong. Either the government is spraying millions of tons of toxins into the air (a physically and economically impossible task) for the purposes of harming us or changing the climate or whatever other reason… or it isn't. Where is the evidence? That's all I ask for. Not opinion, I've seen enough of that on Youtube — I want evidence.

    Edit: Here, look, China's smog pollutes the western US.

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  • Tue, May 26, 2015 - 12:30pm

    Reply to #26

    Chris Martenson

    Status Platinum Member (Offline)

    Joined: Jun 07 2007

    Posts: 4969

    On the subject of Chemtrails...

    [quote=Mark_BC]

    (…)

    These chemtrail conspiracy theories IMO do damage to the alternative movement because they discredit the legitimate conspiracy theories by alienating a lot of people who might otherwise look at evidence supporting the real conspiracies going on out there. Then automatically everyone who believes in any conspiracy is branded a tinfoil hat whacko. But me, I follow where the evidence leads me, wherever that goes. There is heaps of evidence supporting the existence of financial conspiracies that go to the top leadership of the world, you'd have to be in complete denial to argue against that, but there is no evidence supporting chemtrails and only solid science explaining the existence of contrails.

    [/quote]

    Mark, I am sympathetic to the idea that the government might be conducting some sort of atmospheric spraying program, mainly because I could imagine that if you were somewhat worried about global warming but did not want to admit that for political reasons but you also wanted to test out if geoengineering might work, then the whole thing would be done and kept hush hush.

    However, I cringe when people post videos of jets dumping fuel and exclaim that it's chemtrail spraying,  That fails on so many levels (e.g. why would 'they' use passenger jets when the weight limits are already mainly used up hauling humans?) and it's extremely easy to locate exactly where the fuel dump nozzle is on any given plane and then match that to the video.

    Or when a condensation vortex is created by planes landing in high humidity conditions…I've seen people excitedly claim that's a chemtrail sprayer in action…again which just fails on a lot of levels the biggest one being that the phenomenon is quite easily investigated and understood to be caused by the low pressure zones that full-flap wings are specifically designed to create.

    All of these and other such pieces of 'evidence' do a heck of a lot to discredit the entire movement of people who think something is happening up there.  I cannot discount that some of these are actually 'poison well' efforts meant to distract and discredit the movement, and those who would promote the idea of chemtrails should be hyper vigilant to themselves discredit these silly theories on their own.  And vigorously.

    So what about the evidence that does exist?  The one thing that has bothered me a lot is that it seems to me that the precise test that would either prove or disprove the theory of chemtrails would be both relatively easy to perform, repeatable, and conclusive.

    We already know the photon absorption spectrum of the sun in very high detail.  Briefly, each element has a unique 'fingerprint' of specific photon frequencies that they absorb creating dark lines on an otherwise perfect white-light spectrum.

    The sun's unique fingerprint is formed by the relative amounts of each element that it has and the resulting image looks like this:

    Yes, there are a lot of elements in the sun!

    Now the test I propose is to get yourself one of these machines that can read such lines with an appropriate level of sensitivity, wait for a chemtrail to pass over the sun, take a reading, and then see what sorts of extra elements appear.

    If you get big spikes in aluminum and boron and such, there's your proof.  All done.  Anybody anywhere with similar equipment should be able to repeat the test.  

    Now it's possible that such a test would lack the requisite sensitivity but given the extraordinarily sensitive readings that astronomers regularly make using ridiculously small amounts of light, I am going to guess that having the sun's full power blazing through a dense cloud of barium and aluminum (so dense that it creates very high ground level concentrations according to the chemtrail community) should be child's play for today's instruments.

    To my knowledge nobody in the chemtrail community has proposed or ran such a test, and I am confused as to why.  Data is a wonderful thing and this data seems very easy to collect, and it would be definitive and conclusive.

    I have neither ruled chemtrails in or out, but I have ruled out much of the so-called 'evidence' because it's just bogus.  

    I am interested in the elevated levels of metals on western snowpacks and would be very interested to know how those got there and, whatever the answer, we should really know.

    As a final note, I am equally allergic, on the other side, of people who dismiss chemtrails on the basis of "it would be too big too hide, somebody would have talked."  History proves that's reasoning as equally faulty as mistaking a fuel dump for a chemtrail.  Both can be dispelled with a tiny bit of open minded inquiry.

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  • Tue, May 26, 2015 - 1:00pm

    #45
    Denny Johnson

    Denny Johnson

    Status Bronze Member (Offline)

    Joined: Aug 14 2008

    Posts: 119

    EU dropped pesticide laws due

    EU dropped pesticide laws due to US pressure over TTIP, documents reveal

    EU moves to regulate hormone-damaging chemicals linked to cancer and male infertility were shelved following pressure from US trade officials over the Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership (TTIP) free trade deal, newly released documents show.

    Draft EU criteria could have banned 31 pesticides containing endocrine disrupting chemicals (EDCs). But these were dumped amid fears of a trade backlash stoked by an aggressive US lobby push, access to information documents obtained by Pesticides Action Network (PAN) Europe show.

    On 26 June 2013, a high-level delegation from the American Chambers of Commerce (AmCham) visited EU trade officials to insist that the bloc drop its planned criteria for identifying EDCs in favour of a new impact study.

    http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2015/may/22/eu-dropped-pesticide-laws-due-to-us-pressure-over-ttip-documents-reveal

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  • Tue, May 26, 2015 - 1:19pm

    #46
    jcusick

    jcusick

    Status Member (Offline)

    Joined: Apr 25 2011

    Posts: 5

    Bayer is fighting back

    Bayer is one of the big producers and sellers of neonicotinoids. They recently popped up a poster on their PR site that states that Bee Colonies are 'stable or increasing".

    https://www.bayercropscience.us/news/blog/2015/may/050615-good-news-on-bee-health

    Here is a direct link to the poster

    https://www.bayercropscience.us/~/media/Bayer%20CropScience/Country-United-States-Internet/Documents/Our%20Commitment/Bee/Good%20News%20on%20Bee%20Health.ashx

    Ain't Corporate Propaganda wonderful?

     

     

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  • Tue, May 26, 2015 - 3:58pm

    Reply to #26

    Jim H

    Status Diamond Member (Offline)

    Joined: Jun 08 2009

    Posts: 1798

    Addressing Chemtrails

    Thank you for addressing Chemtrails Chris.  I remain a skeptic due to lack of solid data.  Of photon absorbance analysis you said,

    Now the test I propose is to get yourself one of these machines that can read such lines with an appropriate level of sensitivity, wait for a chemtrail to pass over the sun, take a reading, and then see what sorts of extra elements appear.

    If you get big spikes in aluminum and boron and such, there's your proof.  All done.  Anybody anywhere with similar equipment should be able to repeat the test.

    The answer is, it's complicated.  It's complicated mainly because we don't know the particle size range we are dealing with.. if indeed these metals are being seeded into the atmosphere, either as oxides or salts.  For sure, they would have to exist as particles, even if they were being delivered as a soluble starting material in the fuel itself (one theory I have seen mentioned).  The particles, if they were not sprayed directly as dry powder, would form as nonvolatile residue, as the fuel droplets become combusted.  The problem analytically is that particle size effects scattering modes;

    Before radiation used for remote sensing reaches the Earth's surface it has to travel through some distance of the Earth's atmosphere. Particles and gases in the atmosphere can affect the incoming light and radiation. These effects are caused by the mechanisms of scattering and absorption.

    Earth's atmosphere

    Scattering occurs when particles or large gas molecules present in the atmosphere interact with and cause the electromagnetic radiation to be redirected from its original path. How much scattering takes place depends on several factors including the wavelength of the radiation, the abundance of particles or gases, and the distance the radiation travels through the atmosphere. There are three (3) types of scattering which take place.

    Scattering

         

    Sunrise and SunsetRayleigh scattering occurs when particles are very small compared to the wavelength of the radiation. These could be particles such as small specks of dust or nitrogen and oxygen molecules. Rayleigh scattering causes shorter wavelengths of energy to be scattered much more than longer wavelengths. Rayleigh scattering is the dominant scattering mechanism in the upper atmosphere. The fact that the sky appears "blue" during the day is because of this phenomenon. As sunlight passes through the atmosphere, the shorter wavelengths (i.e. blue) of the visible spectrum are scattered more than the other (longer) visible wavelengths. At sunrise and sunset the light has to travel farther through the atmosphere than at midday and the scattering of the shorter wavelengths is more complete; this leaves a greater proportion of the longer wavelengths to penetrate the atmosphere.

    Mie scattering occurs when the particles are just about the same size as the wavelength of the radiation. Dust, pollen, smoke and water vapour are common causes of Mie scattering which tends to affect longer wavelengths than those affected by Rayleigh scattering. Mie scattering occurs mostly in the lower portions of the atmosphere where larger particles are more abundant, and dominates when cloud conditions are overcast.

    Nonselective Scattering The final scattering mechanism of importance is called nonselective scattering. This occurs when the particles are much larger than the wavelength of the radiation. Water droplets and large dust particles can cause this type of scattering. Nonselective scattering gets its name from the fact that all wavelengths are scattered about equally. This type of scattering causes fog and clouds to appear white to our eyes because blue, green, and red light are all scattered in approximately equal quantities (blue+green+red light = white light)

    continued here;   http://www.nrcan.gc.ca/earth-sciences/geomatics/satellite-imagery-air-photos/satellite-imagery-products/educational-resources/14635

    Not saying absorbance testing could not be done.. just that there would probably need to be a number of assumptions made about the size and refractive index of the particles… does not sound simple. 

    If it were me, I would want to interrogate air sampled from up high directly for the particles.  Commercial jets generally run 50:50 mix of cabin recirc. and outside bleed air, and one high tech filter company (http://www.pall.com/main/aerospace-defense-marine/how-cabin-air-systems-work.page) suggests having a separate filter on the bleed air.  Now THAT would be an interesting thing to sample (suggest doing an acid extraction on the filter element) to see what's what, though you would be looking at a time average of course.

    What snow melt results are you referring to Chris… this?

    https://www.metabunk.org/debunked-shasta-snow-and-water-aluminum-tests.t137/

     

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  • Tue, May 26, 2015 - 4:24pm

    #47

    Mark Cochrane

    Status Platinum Member (Offline)

    Joined: May 24 2011

    Posts: 863

    Known climate impact of contrails

    I am unsure what the chemtrail community thinks the climate impacts of observed contrails are supposed to be but the fact of the matter is that those contrails are generally up high, forming cirrus clouds that warm the climate – they don't cool it like low elevation clouds would. The effects on temperature may not be what you expect. From the three day hiatus of flights over the US after 9/11, we learned that the day time temperatures rose when the contrails had all dissipated but the night time temperatures cooled even more since those cirrus-contrail clouds weren't trapping in the heat. The current prevalence of contrails isn't some geoengineering test unless it is one to make climate matters worse. The current warming effect of cirrus-contrails is larger than all of the warming caused by all of the cumulative carbon dioxide emissions to date.

    Aviation makes a significant contribution to anthropogenic climate forcing. The impacts arise from emissions of greenhouse gases, aerosols and nitrogen oxides, and from changes in cloudiness in the upper troposphere. (link)

    Those linear contrails can persist and spread when the atmosphere is supersaturated with ice crystals to form regional coverage of cirrus clouds.

    The sheer number of contrails can be astounding in their impact when atmospheric conditions are right to yield cirrus cloud formation.

     

    Overall, and despite their short lifetime, contrails may have more radiative impact at any one time than all of the aviation-emitted carbon dioxide that has accumulated in the atmosphere since the beginning of commercial aviation. It is important to note, however, that the emitted carbon dioxide would continue to exert a warming influence for much longer than contrails, should all aircraft be grounded indefinitely. (link)

    Although the impact of contrails is larger than that from the greenhouse gases from aviation at present, if we grounded planes (like after 9/11) that effect would disappear within hours/days. The CO2 effects would continue to last for hundreds of years. So, ultimately, it is still the emissions that are the larger problem for global climate.

    This neither proves nor disproves the idea of chemtrails but Mark_BC raises a lot of important reality check questions about the physical constraints on what could actually be done assuming something was doable. Physics still matters. Chris' idea for some relatively simple tests to detect possible contaminants within contrails is a good idea. For that matter, some simple sampling of those contrails could be done by flying through them with the right equipment.

    Curiously, if chemtrails do exist, I think that the contrails that are assumed to be the evidence are probably a red herring that would mislead you as to where to look. If you were being nefarious about this you wouldn't want to dump this stuff in a way everyone could see. You could better dump it all along the flight path where contrails are not forming…

    Mark

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  • Tue, May 26, 2015 - 4:38pm

    #48

    sand_puppy

    Status Platinum Member (Offline)

    Joined: Apr 13 2011

    Posts: 2083

    Chemtrails: I just want to know what is true

    I also agree that either they are spraying or they are not, and that this is a physical event.  Eventually, we will probably all know "The Truth."  The Warren Commission findings will be unsealed after 75 years, so we'll know about that too.

    But in the mean time, here we are.  Sitting in the middle of incomplete information and (for me) a strong impression that there is a geopolitical chess game afoot.

    I personally do NOT have a background in physical chemistry or atmospheric science.  I will pretty much be at the mercy of intelligent people that I trust to help explain to me how things work.  And I would like to know more about this topic. I am soliciting information and synthesis by those with sufficient background.

    ——-

    Philosophy of Science

    Scientific understandings begin as ideas that initially have little supporting data and are unproven.  Many of the ideas falter and are abandoned.  Some grow. Over decades, some become regarded as "true" and some, so "true" as to be dogma.  The point I am trying to make here is that unproven ideas form one of the legitimate stages of "science." 

    Scientists, as a group, move much like a herd.  It takes time to get the herd moving a new directions.  It is not just the information itself.  It is a sociological phenomenon where a group of human beings shifts their consensus understanding.  Decades are needed for big paradigm shifts.

    ——-

    On "being certain"

    One of the stages of understanding is "being certain."  This means that one's view has "gelled" on a certain cognitive model and one's identity has linked to the model.  At this stage information gathering shuts down or is significantly curtailed.  On the good side, certainty offers stability and a foundation to move on to the next area of exploration.  On the bad side, when we become certain of something that it turns out is not true, it is very, very hard to catch on to the error.

    Hence the famous Carl Sagan quote:

    “One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we’ve been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We’re no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It’s simply too painful to acknowledge, even to ourselves, that we’ve been taken.”

    And Mark Twain:

    “It's not what you don't know that kills you, it's what you know for sure that ain't true.”

    And last, the late Zen teacher, Shunryu Suzuki, from San Francisco:

    “If your mind is empty … it is open to everything. In the beginner's mind there are many possibilities, but in the expert's mind there are few. ” 

    I am requesting here is that everyone stay curious and willing to learn.  And I personally would like the assistance of those in the group with enough basic science background to help evaluate merits this field.

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  • Tue, May 26, 2015 - 4:51pm

    Reply to #48
    Time2help

    Time2help

    Status Platinum Member (Offline)

    Joined: Jun 08 2011

    Posts: 2307

    Peeved

    [quote=sand_puppy]

    Hence the famous Carl Sagan quote:

    “One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we’ve been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We’re no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It’s simply too painful to acknowledge, even to ourselves, that we’ve been taken.”

    And Mark Twain:

    “It's not what you don't know that kills you, it's what you know for sure that ain't true.”

    [/quote]

    Sand_puppy, you are responsible for the genesis of a rant. Cogitation initiated.

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  • Tue, May 26, 2015 - 5:20pm

    Reply to #26

    Chris Martenson

    Status Platinum Member (Offline)

    Joined: Jun 07 2007

    Posts: 4969

    This made me think it's doable

    [quote=Jim H]

    (…)

    Not saying absorbance testing could not be done.. just that there would probably need to be a number of assumptions made about the size and refractive index of the particles… does not sound simple. 

    [/quote]

    Not knowing anything about atmospheric absorption testing, I read a few things and  found this publication which made it all seem very doable, especially since they are using the same tests to measure smog particulate concentrations (which are a range of sizes).

    http://www.iup.uni-bremen.de/doas/paper/spec_euro_06_richter.pdf

     

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  • Tue, May 26, 2015 - 7:12pm

    Reply to #26

    Jim H

    Status Diamond Member (Offline)

    Joined: Jun 08 2009

    Posts: 1798

    Analysis of Aerosol particles

    Thank you for the reference Chris.  You will notice that all of the species referenced in the article are molecular gases; 

    Examples of applications
    A number of relevant atmospheric species can be measured from space using the DOAS method. They include pollutants such as ozone, nitrogen dioxide (NO2), sulphur dioxide (SO2), formaldehyde (CHCHO), carbon monoxide(CO), methane (CH4) and several other
    trace gases (see Figure 4). For the lower atmosphere (the troposphere), determination of nitrogen dioxide amounts is the most mature application.
    I don't think this method would be appropriate to identify absorbances due to particles.  The paper talks about dealing the the scattering due to aerosols, but only in the sense that this is one (major) component of the overall (sun photon) signal attenuation that must be dealt with in deriving useful spectroscopic information.  Intuitively, you can imagine how the molecules of a gas species are uniformly distributed.. and they present themselves in a manner that allows for efficient, chemical bond level molecular absorbance.  In the case of particles, large numbers of the metal salt or metal oxide molecules are agglomerated.. and these particles will tend to act more as scattering centers than they do efficient absorbers.  The well dispersed gaseous contaminant will have much higher probability of interacting with a photon from the sun vs. the condensed, but equally rare (on a molecules/cu ft., or other volumetric) basis metallic compound in particle form.  At least that's how I see it.         
     
    I remain convinced that you have to go old school here.. capture the particles by some means and analyze;

    Measuring airborne particles

    Many different instruments were used to collect the aerosol samples at several sites: one, a Davis Rotating Drum, captured particles of three different sizes on Teflon tapes; another, a Time Resolved Aerosol Impactor, collected single particles. In situ measurements were made with an Aerosol Time-of-Flight Mass Spectrometer (ATOFMS), which sucked particles into a vacuum chamber, determined their size, and analyzed the mass spectra of their constituent chemicals on the fly, by zapping each with a laser pulse.

    This is why I imagined that one could devise a study based on some form of analysis on airplane air filters, especially if there is a separate filter used for the outside make-up air.  One would need to control for virgin filter makeup (background) then, miles flown with a new filter, etc.. but it could be done.   

     

        
     
     
     
     
     

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  • Tue, May 26, 2015 - 7:23pm

    #49

    blackeagle

    Status Bronze Member (Offline)

    Joined: May 16 2013

    Posts: 233

    From an egg to a bee in 63 seconds

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lMtFYt7ko_o

     

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  • Wed, May 27, 2015 - 7:59am

    #50
    Bellinghamster

    Bellinghamster

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    Joined: Feb 19 2012

    Posts: 26

    Two big thumbs up

    This article above is some of the best evidence of certain pesticides directly involved with the colony collapse disorder. It shows what I had suspected all along as nothing seems more devastating to the insect community as the very thing designed to kill them, or their cousins. By going on a different chemical dump tangent I had no intention of steering the discussion.  I felt it equally important to bring up a subject that becomes a great controversy and stirs emotion, I will admit. In fact I had no interest in the geoengineering phenom until I had my son. As a concerned parent and a person watching this world clearly in self destruct I began to investigate. The amount of evidence I see with my own eyes and have acquired through my own experiences is compelling to me. For instance the Climate Impact of Contrails discussion that Marc C brings is a very good example. I know as I almost became a commercial pilot and have commercial pilot friends that the flight patterns are something very intently planned and followed by the airlines, cargo, military and all aviation for a number a reasons, efficiency and fuel the biggest, barring the military. I have seen patterns that are clearly not flight patterns. That vexes me. The model is also compiled by NOAAH. Who in turn uses Ratheon (a defense contractor) to form the models. More vexing.. The lack of funding and physical presence hummm. The pentagon alone was responsible (or irresponsible) for loosing track of at least 8 trillion dollars since 1993. The corruption runs so deep in every corner of our lives that I'm not sure throwing anything off the table is warranted. There is a vast list of conspiracy theories that have been deemed true after passing through the three steps outlined by Arthur Schopenhauer. I have time lapse of the pacific coast going from contrails to grey haze in a clear fashion. That, if it's truly just exhaust and contrails, has to be very bad. It's just to obvious to me. I hope more wake up to looking at things with an open mind. Looking at data from NOAAH and NASA, was the old trusting way of doing things. From my view it seems to be a bit short of the truth. Thank you guys for the intelligent discussion.  When I found this site it truly resonated with my changing thought process and above everything else I admire the intelligence and diversity it provides in all of its discussion.

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  • Wed, May 27, 2015 - 1:21pm

    #51
    robie robinson

    robie robinson

    Status Gold Member (Offline)

    Joined: Aug 25 2009

    Posts: 925

    another dis-ease vector

    Honeybee Collapse is the Result of Their Enslavement in Industrial Monocultures

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  • Thu, May 28, 2015 - 6:38pm

    #52

    Chris Martenson

    Status Platinum Member (Offline)

    Joined: Jun 07 2007

    Posts: 4969

    Massive Herbicide Mis-Useage

    Another place where massive amounts of herbicides are used are on forests. Somebody somewhere has decided you can squeak a few extra lazy dollars out of a clear cut if you spray it down liberally with herbicides so that the replanted trees can get a better, faster start.

    Unsurprisingly, this is done on a massive scale with few effective safeguards:

    Whistleblower videos reveal helicopter spraying workers with weed killers

    May 22, 2015

    Exposed atop the barren clearcut in Oregon's coastal mountains, he hid in the only place he could.

    A helicopter circled overhead, spraying a fine mist of toxic weed killers. Darryl Ivy took refuge inside his pickup: Windows up, doors shut.

    The scene was captured on camera, one of more than 200 videos Ivy recorded on his smartphone.

    Again and again, herbicides rained down. The milky chemical mix stained Ivy's windshield white and turned his phlegm red.

    Ivy, a truck driver, spent 17 days this spring on a spray crew in Douglas County, the heart of Oregon's timber country.

    He got sprayed so often it became routine.

    Don't worry about it, Ivy said the pilot told him.It won't hurt you.

    In one video, a pilot sprays in conditions that are "way too windy," the other driver tells Ivy.

    Ivy asks in another video about neighbors who complained. "Pansies," a driver says. Deer in the way? "They all get sprayed," a forester says.

    Ivy is a tough guy, a 45-year-old gym rat with a barrel chest. He assumed he would get used to it.

    "I knew I was getting sprayed every day," Ivy said. "But I thought I was resilient."

    But after just a few days on the crew, he started coughing blood. It came in hacking fits, up from his chest and then down from his sinuses. He broke out in red welts that still dotted his arms and neck two weeks later.

    Each year, helicopters spray weed killers on more than 165 square miles of Oregon timberland, an area larger than the city of Portland. They do it under the West Coast's weakest regulations.

    The practices are governed by the Agriculture and Forestry departments. They oversee laws that give companies far more discretion to decide how and where to spray than in neighboring states.

    Seriously, we are a very sick culture…

     

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  • Fri, May 29, 2015 - 12:02am

    #53

    blackeagle

    Status Bronze Member (Offline)

    Joined: May 16 2013

    Posts: 233

    No, worse... much worse...

    Chris wrote:

    Seriously, we are a very sick culture…

    We are worse… everywhere we see depletion and destruction.
    A few examples:
    – Shark fins for soup (The rest of the shark is thrown).
    – Coral for jewelry
    – Whaling
    – Elephants for their ivory
    – Gazelle as decoration trophy
    – Ground rhino horns as an aphrodisiac
    – Boreal deforestation for making toilet paper.
    – and on, and on…

    This happens everywhere. All cultures have similar behavior since very long time. The difference is that now the earth is overpopulated. We overshoot almost all the "little excesses" of the past. Adding that money is now king (It is no more a mean. it is the goal) the result is horrible.

    Depressing…

     

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  • Fri, Jun 12, 2015 - 1:35am

    #54

    Arthur Robey

    Status Platinum Member (Offline)

    Joined: Feb 03 2010

    Posts: 1814

    Another approach to Pesticides

    Paul Stammets thinks that we can do a lot better with Mycelia. 

    All Natural, Mushroom-Based Pesticide Could Revolutionize Agriculture

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  • Fri, Jun 12, 2015 - 10:00am

    Reply to #54
    robie robinson

    robie robinson

    Status Gold Member (Offline)

    Joined: Aug 25 2009

    Posts: 925

    good find

    Arthur

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  • Mon, Jun 15, 2015 - 2:56pm

    #55
    jgritter

    jgritter

    Status Bronze Member (Offline)

    Joined: Dec 13 2011

    Posts: 161

    mosquitos

    A couple of more anecdotal observations from the pucker brush.

    Despite a historically wet spring here in the middle of North America, the mosquito numbers seem to be way down.  Any correlation to the bee numbers?

    Also, I have noticed a very small ( about the size of a house fly ),  dark brown bee with very faint stripes, among the clover blossoms that I don't think I've ever seen before.  With active hives, the clover should be literally crawling with honey bees.  With my hives dead, I see no honey bees at all.  The appearance of this little brown wild bee (albeit, in very low numbers) that I've never seen before has me wondering if this is nature abhorring a vacuum, or has this little brown bee been there all the whole time, just lost in the noise.

    I dearly wish it were possible to check in with the biosphere every hundred years or so for the next ten thousand years or so to see how this all shakes out, fascinating.

    John G.

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  • Tue, Jun 30, 2015 - 10:09pm

    #56
    jgritter

    jgritter

    Status Bronze Member (Offline)

    Joined: Dec 13 2011

    Posts: 161

    Joy and Praise

    Wild/feral honey bees have moved into one of my empty hives.  I give thanks and praise to the Mother Goddess for her gifts and for letting me be a part of her divine plan.

    John G.

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  • Wed, Jul 01, 2015 - 1:13am

    #57

    pinecarr

    Status Gold Member (Offline)

    Joined: Apr 13 2008

    Posts: 1107

    Very cool, JGritter; very cool!!

    That is happy news!

    P.S., in response to your post before that: I had also noticed a different type of small bee that I'd never noticed before in the flowers this spring.  They were very small, not much bigger than big ants.  I thought at first maybe they were flying ants or carpenter ants, but when I looked closer, they had the stripes on their abdomen (which I think is unique to bees?), and looked like miniature bees.  But I also wondered if they were filling up a gap made by the reduction in honeybees (or if I'd just never noticed them before because of the honeybees).

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  • Wed, Jul 01, 2015 - 1:42am

    #58

    pinecarr

    Status Gold Member (Offline)

    Joined: Apr 13 2008

    Posts: 1107

    Neonicotinoids on retail blueberry plants...

    So I was checking out one of the local franchise home-lumber-garden stores this last weekend, trying to find some fruit trees or plants on sale for the end-of-the-planting-season.  And I was excited to find some nice looking blueberry bushes, hardy to Zone 4, for sale for less than $10 each.  So I took my time and picked out a couple of the nicest ones, feeling happy to have found them. 

    Then I noticed a white plastic tab sticking out of the dirt saying something about how these blueberries were resistant to aphids and some other nasty bugs.  Cool!  I thought I'd gotten some kind of resistant breed of blueberries to boot!  But as I focused in and read more closely, I see that it says "protected from aphids [etc.] by neonicotinoids".  Oh.  Not so cool.  And up went the blueberry bushes back on their display shelf.

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  • Wed, Jul 01, 2015 - 10:54pm

    #59

    pinecarr

    Status Gold Member (Offline)

    Joined: Apr 13 2008

    Posts: 1107

    Bee-friendly plant buyers beware!

    I found an article related to my post (#91) above entitled "Lowe's To Stop Selling Neonicotinoid Pesticides That May Be Harmful To Bees", http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/04/09/lowes-pesticides-bees_n_7035208.html .

    Of interest:

    Lowe's said it will phase out neonics in shelf products and plants by the spring of 2019, as suitable alternatives become available.

    A study released by environment group Friends of the Earth and Pesticide Research Institute in 2014 showed that 51 percent of garden plants purchased at Lowe's, Home Depot and Walmart in 18 cities in the United States and Canada contained neonicotinoid pesticides at levels that could harm or even kill bees. [bold mine]

    And:

    Last year, BJ's Wholesale Club, a warehouse retailer said it was asking all of its vendors to provide plants free of neonics by the end of 2014 or to label such products.

    Home Depot, the largest U.S. home improvement chain, also asked its suppliers to start labeling any plants treated with neonics and that it was running tests in several states to see if suppliers can eliminate neonics in their plant production without hurting plant health. [bold mine]

    Oh!  There's that little white tag I was talking about in #91!  Its in a 2nd article, "I want Home Depot to stop selling plants that have been treated with Neonicotinoids pesticide", @ https://www.change.org/p/home-depot-i-want-home-depot-to-stop-selling-plants-that-have-been-treated-with-neonicotinoids-pesticide

    Petitioning Home Depot

    I want Home Depot to stop selling plants that have been treated with Neonicotinoids pesticide.

    Neonicotinoids pesticide have been linked to the collapse of honey bee populations, that pollinate foods we need to eat. As such Home Depot's selling plants treated with the pesticide amounts to seeking profits above the public good.

    Neonicotiniods were used to treat flowers, which will kill bees that visit them, but equally disturbing food bedding plants also have been treated with the Neonicotinoids: squash, tomatoes, eggplants, summer savoury, and even cabbage and leaf lettuce that were treated. Studies have indicated that the Neonicotinoids also effect human health.

    Please sign my petition, to tell Home Depot to get plants treated with Neonicotinoidslants out of their garden centers..

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  • Mon, Jul 06, 2015 - 2:33pm

    #60

    Arthur Robey

    Status Platinum Member (Offline)

    Joined: Feb 03 2010

    Posts: 1814

    intersex humans on the increase.

    We had better get used to relating to people who are neither male nor female. Environmental Issues are increasing their number.Get used to it.

    This may be the "solution" to the population problem. Not with a Bang but a whimper. 

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  • Fri, Jul 17, 2015 - 7:13pm

    #61

    herewego

    Status Bronze Member (Offline)

    Joined: Aug 11 2010

    Posts: 132

    More Joy and Praise!

    Things have changed since my last post in May, when there were lots of blossoms but no pollinators.  At that time I decided to leave alone all the weeds on my property that bees feed on.  The "lawn" is full of milkweed, fireweed and dandelion and all the cultivated blossoms are now constantly buzzing with various pollinators.  Bumblebees, wild bees, wasps, hummingbirds and even monarch butterflies are all there when I step outside.  I've learned to be amongst them calmly even after I accidentally disturbed an underground nest of little brown wild bees in a new bed and got stung a few times.  The wasp nest over my door did get rebuilt so they are also swooping about.  I will kill them if they start going after me but I enjoy the challenge of coexisting with all the busy little creatures. There is a new understanding of their importance, and heartfelt interest in their wellbeing.  Mason bees and wildflowers next year….

    Cheers,

    Susan

    PS The peach tree did get pollinated and is overloaded with fuzzy green babies.

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