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    Suddenly Fear Of Social Unrest Is Everywhere

    So, how can we protect ourselves?
    by Adam Taggart

    Friday, August 28, 2020, 8:26 PM

In a year that has experienced a global pandemic, Depression-level job losses, a bevy of large-scale natural disasters from wildfires to Cat 4 hurricanes to derechos, the #1 current concern we’re now hearing from our readers isn’t any of these.

Instead, it’s the danger of social unrest breaking out in their local community.

Anyone with eyes can see that the mercury is rising across America. The riots that follow the deaths of folks like George Floyd and now Jacob Blake, the current violence in Kenosha, Seattle’s lawless autonomous zone, the movement to ‘defund the police’, the anger behind the surge of ‘cancel culture’ — the nation’s social fabric is suddenly stretched taut and starting to tear at the seams.

Is it any surprise that gun sales are up 72%(!) vs last year, with first-time buyers driving a material percentage of that increase:

According to a report by the Washington Post, the National Sports Shooting Foundation says that first-time gun buyers played a heavy role in the increase.  Women and black Americans have also shown interest in arming themselves this year.

Nearly 5 million Americans purchased a firearm for the very first time in 2020NSSF surveyed firearm retailers which reported that 40% of sales were conducted to purchasers who have never previously owned a firearm,” the organization said in its analysis, which tracked background checks associated with the sale of a firearm reported by the FBI’s National Instant Background Check System.

“This is a tectonic shift in the firearm and ammunition industry marketplace and complete transformation of today’s gun-owning community,” said Lawrence G. Keane, a senior vice president at the foundation. “These first-time buyers represent a group of people who, until now, were agnostic regarding firearm ownership. That’s rapidly changing…

(Source)

This rise in public ire is something we’ve been warning of for years here at PeakProsperity.com. While there are many serious injustices that exist in today’s society, we believe the root cause for the majority of them lies in the misguided and frequently immoral policies perpetrated by the Federal Reserve and Congress — policies that reward the already-rich at the expense of the general public.

2020 has revealed this truth clearly in the response to the covid-19 pandemic. With the $5+ trillion unleashed between the monetary and fiscal “rescue” stimulus efforts, the battle cry from our “leaders” has been: Defend the rich! 

Despite an unprecedented decline in economic activity, asset prices have more than recovered their losses and many are now back at all-time-highs in what has been the shortest-lived bear market history:

Bear market comparison chart

We have been referring to these detrimental policies as the Leave No Billionaire Behind (#LNBB) program, as they’ve resulted in a massive boom for the uber-wealthy, while the rest of America has lost tens of millions of jobs and received meager to no assistance.

To get a sense of the gargantuan disparity between the haves and the have-nots, watch this 2-minute video:

And these policies aren’t going away. In fact, as Fed Chairman Jerome Powell stated yesterday, our leaders are doubling- and tripling-down on them.

In my recent interview with former Fed insider Danielle DiMartino-Booth, she interprets Powell’s comments yesterday as nothing less than a public commitment to “do even more” of what the Fed has been doing since 2009.

So if you think creating a zombie economy that enriches the elites while screwing the rest of us has been bad, boy, you ain’t seen nothin’ yet…

This is why my fellow co-founder Chris Martenson and I share this quote by Plutarch so often. If we continue the status quo trajectory, history is extremely clear on what will follow:

Plutarch quote

There is a line of intolerance that, once crossed, will turn the desperate masses against the small few benefitting so vastly from today’s system.

Skeptical it could happen? History begs to differ. Its list of social revolutions, uprisings and rebellions is so long it makes your head spin. Even the number that have happened just within the past decade is staggeringly large

And with an upcoming US Presidential election as divisive as this one? Not only will a large part of America be angry at the outcome, whomever wins, imagine what would happen should the results be contested in a protracted dispute (as has already been hinted at by both parties)? It would be the equivalent of tossing a grenade into the already-overstuffed powder keg.

So, are there steps you can today to reduce your vulnerability should unrest and the threat of violence/looting come to your community?

The answer is fortunately: yes.

In Part 2: Protecting Yourself, Your Loved Ones, Your Home & Your Money From Social Unrest, we’ve compiled the most effective, practical actions and best practices for you to consider taking now to safeguard your loved ones, your home, and your wealth from “mob threat”.

If you’re as concerned about social unrest as many of our readers, you need to assess your biggest areas of vulnerability and actively decide which are worth taking action on today.

Because only those preparations you’ve already put in place are the ones available once crisis hits.

Click here to read Part 2 of this report (free executive summary, enrollment required for full access).

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300 Comments

  • Fri, Aug 28, 2020 - 8:41pm

    #1
    kitsinu

    kitsinu

    Status: Member

    Joined: Apr 01 2020

    Posts: 12

    12

    These are Marxists seeking to wrest control of the nation

    This isn't about the divide between the rich and the poor, this is about total control by Marxists.  Either continue to appease them in hopes that they will eventually be satisfied, rather than emboldened, or bring the hammer down on them.

    We are not China or Russia, in which the populace was unarmed.  We are armed.  One way or another, the hammer will fall down upon these wicked communists.

    These riots only stand where there is appeasement.  Such appeasement is only in Democrat run cities and states.  The voters are taking note.  Expect a seriously red wave this fall.  Whether they are merely sympathetic to the supposed racial justice cause of the rioters, or whether they are willing disciples of communism, these false leaders are being noted.

    As has been said, it didn't have to be this way.

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  • Fri, Aug 28, 2020 - 8:54pm

    #2
    nordicjack

    nordicjack

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    Joined: Feb 03 2020

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    0

    All ahead of schedule

    The powers that be have done a perfect job in causing divide.   Thrown in some mass wealth disparity, mix it with a bit civil or criminal injustice,  stir and kaboom.   Pretty simple formula.

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  • Fri, Aug 28, 2020 - 11:21pm

    Rootman

    Rootman

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    Posts: 80

    10

    not Marxists...

    Nasty people for sure, but not Marxists or even left wing.

    Anything sponsored by the likes of Soros cannot be left wing (even if they think so themselves), because per definition, billionaires cannot be, neither the causes they support.

    Sure, plenty of fake left identity politics around, but pushed only to distract the people from real issues, like endless wars, increasing inequality and universal health care, but instead putting them against each other.

     

     

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  • Sat, Aug 29, 2020 - 1:01am

    stevedaly

    stevedaly

    Status: Bronze Member

    Joined: Apr 23 2020

    Posts: 161

    14

    Seattle 'riot kitchen' radicals who travelled to Kenosha

    were arrested after filling multiple gas cans. Helmets, gas masks, protective vests, illegal fireworks" were found inside their vehicles.

    https://nypost.com/2020/08/28/activists-arrested-in-kenosha-after-filling-up-gas-cans-police/

    Should the FBI be investigating terrorist organizations that travel out of state to commit arson and criminal battery crimes?  Should they investigate the claims of Senator Rand Paul claims that some organization was financing protestors in DC, paying their air travel, lodging and food.  Oh wait a minute the FBI is still busy trying to plant a spy in the white house to frame Trump for Russia collusion.  And they still can't figure out what the heck happened at that darned Mandalay Bay massacre.  They don't have time to investigate domestic terrorists except for those pesky white supremacists.

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  • Sat, Aug 29, 2020 - 4:12am

    #5

    sand_puppy

    Status: Platinum Member

    Joined: Apr 13 2011

    Posts: 2470

    21

    The 4 groups of protestors

    I can't find it, but, thc0655 posted and article several months ago about the multiple groups that come together in a protest/riot/arson/looting event.  (Can you find that again thc0655?)

    1.  The idealistic people who seek fairness and truly want justice for everyone.  This group is the most important as it is the public face of the event and the positive idealogical faction that allows normal people to tolerate the protests.  They are kind and have friends of all races, and are empathetic to those who are downtrodden.  Many are white.

    2.  Those bursting with rage.  They long to burn, smash and destroy.  Treated badly for so long that there is no way forward but to destroy.  Maybe slavery, maybe the growing gap between the rich and the poor--but they completely understanding that there is no way to get ahead for them.

    3.  Those that want free stuff.  "Protests" Providence, RI were fueled by social media advertisements that they were going to break into Macys, and other high end department stores at a certain time and to "be there and get shit."

    4.  Organizers, whose goals are to reshape society using violence as a tool.  Have scouts, radios, deliver bricks and gasoline ahead of time.  Direct the flow of the riots to unguarded streets.  Order the buses to bring in protestors from OOT.   Helps to have insiders in the city government who can direct police to stand down for a bit while the fires catch and spread.

    It is no wonder that our understanding of what is happening is so cloudy and our responses so disjointed.

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  • Sat, Aug 29, 2020 - 4:33am

    #6
    stubby1122

    stubby1122

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    Joined: Jan 24 2015

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    6

    Not as big as media makes it

    There are less than 1 tenth of 1 percent of the population involved in this.

    Media is really good at making it seem that this is bigger than it is.

    If Biden were to win this will all go away in a heart beat. It's all about politics and control.

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  • Sat, Aug 29, 2020 - 4:41am

    Oliveoilguy

    Status: Gold Member

    Joined: Jun 29 2012

    Posts: 853

    2

    How many are involved in the civil unrest?

    You said.....”There are less than 1 tenth of 1 percent of the population involved in this.”

    Would that mean there are 328,200 people active in trying to destroy my country? That seems like a lot.

    okay ......less than 328,200......so maybe 328,199?  Now I feel better.

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  • Sat, Aug 29, 2020 - 4:56am

    ao

    ao

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    19

    yes Marxists and yes left wing

    Sorry Rootman but being sponsored by a billionaire or billionaires or anyone with great wealth, power, and influence does NOT preclude an individual, group, or movement from being Marxist.  Did you forget that the Marxists in the Soviet Union were ultimately funded by New York bankers?  This isn't fake identity politics.  Identity politics are but one of their tools.  Political correctness is another.  No, it is exactly what was predicted by people like Yuri Bezmenov and Stanislav Lunev, individuals who knew exactly how things worked from their insider perspectives.  But you are correct about them being nasty people.  The left has had a long standing monopoly on the nastiest people doing the nastiest things.  Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, and Ceaucescu are but a few examples.  As bad as the fascists Hitler, Mussolini, and Franco were, in terms of total body count, they didn't even come close to the Marxists.  The Marxists have brought more misery to this world than any other group in history, bar none.

    That being said, I fully agree with you that there is plenty of distraction going on.  Witness the fact that neither the left nor the right has launched any kind of protest or substantive resistance or opposition to central banking policies, one of the root causes of much evil in the world.  The mainstream media, which is almost exclusively left wing at this time, also remains totally silent on the issue.  That's not by accident.

     

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  • Sat, Aug 29, 2020 - 5:32am

    #9
    Mysterymet

    Mysterymet

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    Joined: May 23 2020

    Posts: 108

    7

    How to stay safe in civil unrest...Firearms and body cams

    Firearms to defend yourself, your family and your property. Body cams to wear while doing it so some stooge doesn’t show the last 5 seconds only of the encounter to the news making you look like a murderer. Have your own footage to back up your actions. I have cameras outside my house, a dash cam in case I need to drive into a city and am thinking about getting a small body cam. People now are crazy and you don’t want a selectively edited video making you look like a monster... it didn’t have to be like this indeed.

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  • Sat, Aug 29, 2020 - 5:49am

    #10
    brushhog

    brushhog

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    Joined: Oct 06 2015

    Posts: 102

    9

    These are left wing terrorists. Period

    These are groups of people who have been propagandized by left wing media [ and the far left "education" system ], enabled by left wing leaders, funded and organized by George Soros and company [ those hard line left wing fanatics who believe in an "Open society" aka global world communist regime ].

    America is under attack by the left. How do we protect ourselves? We vote against the left, we arm ourselves, we pressure our leaders to maintain law and order, we support police, and we never EVER back down.

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  • Sat, Aug 29, 2020 - 6:31am

    davefairtex

    Status: Member

    Joined: Sep 03 2008

    Posts: 2251

    6

    remember nick sandman

    Firearms to defend yourself, your family and your property. Body cams to wear while doing it so some stooge doesn’t show the last 5 seconds only of the encounter to the news making you look like a murderer...

    Yes, brilliant.  While I don't wear the MAGA hat myself (I don't look very good in red), if Nick Sandman had his own body cam footage, he could have short-circuited the whole affair all on his own.  He got lucky other people recorded it for him.

    And a body cam is a whole lot harder to spot than you holding out your phone in front of your face - practically inviting someone else to rip it out of your hands.

    The whole recording-things-on-a-phone process seems ... fraught with difficulty.

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  • Sat, Aug 29, 2020 - 6:41am

    #12

    Oliveoilguy

    Status: Gold Member

    Joined: Jun 29 2012

    Posts: 853

    4

    Here’s what is driving the push to Globalism

    https://youtu.be/sb9jRqgDOJ8

    This video connects a lot of dots. Davos....Gates....HCQ ....vaccines..

    Well worth your time.

     

     

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  • Sat, Aug 29, 2020 - 7:38am

    #13

    000

    Status: Bronze Member

    Joined: Dec 10 2013

    Posts: 247

    2

    The Chill of Fear: Dread requires only a tenth of a second to take root

    https://hms.harvard.edu/magazine/science-emotion/chill-fear

    But it sure "...is good for CBS..." and sadly, paradoxically, PP even though the the mission is to:
    Build understanding, encourage small actions, then align with solutions.
    The Harvard medicine article is worth a read, say, over some reactionary right-wing sociological sounding "theory" or dystopian novel. It's your brain do with it what you want. It used to be my favorite organ...until I realized who it was telling me this.

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  • Sat, Aug 29, 2020 - 7:50am

    000

    Status: Bronze Member

    Joined: Dec 10 2013

    Posts: 247

    0

    Many are white...

    Why is it that you only qualified number 1?

    Right-wing reactionary's Unite!

    Speech and Slavery in the West Indies

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  • Sat, Aug 29, 2020 - 8:11am

    #15
    Mohammed Mast

    Mohammed Mast

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    Joined: May 17 2017

    Posts: 1017

    14

    Observation

    The Occupy movement was a totally peaceful protest against the big banks, the Fed and the oligarchs who own/run this country.

    In one weekend the Obomba DOJ shut it down nationwide.

    Just an observation

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  • Sat, Aug 29, 2020 - 8:20am

    #16
    Hans

    Hans

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    1

    Hans said:

    https://twitter.com/chrismartenson/status/1270669952010334214/photo/1

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  • Sat, Aug 29, 2020 - 8:57am

    000

    Status: Bronze Member

    Joined: Dec 10 2013

    Posts: 247

    0

    Sandman won't you dance for us?

    Some Lawyers Think Covington Catholic’s Nick Sandmann Walked Away from Media Lawsuits with Peanuts

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  • Sat, Aug 29, 2020 - 9:48am

    #18
    Redneck Engineer

    Redneck Engineer

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    15

    Riots Push Marxism

    One goal of Marxists for decades has been undermining the local police as an institution. Local cops are generally very patriotic and less supportive of Big Brother from Washington issuing edicts. If Washington moved for a big power grab (bigger than they have now), in a violent confrontation between Washington and citizens, I'd bet on local cops defending the small towns and cities. This makes them a large obstacle to a fast jump to tyranny. (The gradual course we've been on for 100 years is another story, driven by the indirect efforts in psychology, economics, and philosophy rather than overt displays of force.)

    Marxists challenge the moral authority of police by generalizing every bad individual cop and incident to entire departments or law enforcement in general ("systemic racism" etc.). They tie up their legal authority with lawsuits, regulations, and rules of engagement. Going after their funding is another strategy that not only undermines their capability but also demoralizes cops to the point that they walk away from their careers.

    BLM provides cover for the defunding effort as a "social justice" or anti-racism effort. The casual observer sides with them because the vast majority of people are not racists, and buys into the narrative that those who oppose the Marxists must therefore be racists. It's convenient and very effective.

    Could the police defunding effort be a legitimate strategy for improving police? Hardly. Bad apples get into departments, but better screening of applicants would help diminish that. Longer training, including training in better tactics for handling violent confrontations, would help reduce violence. Better pay and incentives would attract more and better applicants, and encourage better officers to stay on the force.

    So the stated goal of better policing is better served by increasing funding to police, not defunding them.

    For real reform, I would go after the unions that make it hard to properly punish bad cops. Either disband the unions or reform their rules. (Sidebar: it's the same argument conservatives make against public school teachers' unions.  Funny how I don't hear conservatives go after police unions the same way. And the union defense is the same: going after police unions is somehow anti-police and anti-law enforcement, and going after teacher unions is somehow anti-teacher and anti-education. It's the same bad argument, selectively applied from partisan echo chambers.)

    One aim discussed among some is to federalize the police. That's a dangerous centralization of power. Given the nature of bureaucracy, the economic and psychological/social incentives will gradually encourage cops to become more loyal to Washington than their local constituents.

    In sum: the riots are not at root about racism or police reform. That's the cover for Marxist push for power. The attack on police can further Marxism in many ways, from demoralizing cops to undermining their authority to an outright Federal takeover with institutional reform pushed from Washington on down.

    In addition, the "mostly peaceful" riots (what a neologism!) serve as a distraction and create chaos and instability. The distraction allows more subtle actions to take place - such as new laws and regulations in Washington, or action from the Fed, or consumer price volatility, or massive job loss. The chaos and instability undermine confidence in the American system, opening the way for massive change.

    I'm sympathetic to the Fourth Turning viewpoint, and see the current period as one of upheaval and dramatic change. Maybe revolution, but at least a big jump. As a libertarian, I see every (yes, literally every) political issue as one: does this promote or infringe on individual liberty? So in the current political chaos, the push for change can be either pro-liberty or anti-liberty. Where is the energy and momentum? Clearly with the leftists pushing for more government control of everything. The libertarian wing of the right is a shadow of what it was in the time of Reagan or the Tea Party; free speech is openly denounced as cover for hate speech; Big Tech silences dissent (even on medical topics); saying "All Lives Matter" is viewed as racist code; CA is seriously looking at a retroactive wealth tax on emigrants; etc.

    Despite his significant flaws, Trump has done a few things to liberate the country: lower taxes; "Right to try" laws; tele-medicine; etc. These are good things and not insignificant. In Texas, the governor has pushed and continues to push efforts to reduce regulations and taxes, from loosening building codes to capping increases in property taxes.

    So there are some efforts and successes toward liberty, but the bigger energy is strongly against it. As has been said before, in chaos, people surrender liberty for the illusion of security.

    So not only do the riots serve to push openly Marxist ideas, but the riots distract from other actions and encourage people to seek the false security of greater government power. The Marxists gain in multiple ways from the riots.

    I'll refrain from discussing the political benefits to the presidential candidates in an election year, other than to note that that is an interesting twist on top of everything else, and may be the one big way in which the Marxists don't gain from this.

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  • Sat, Aug 29, 2020 - 10:18am

    #19
    Mysterymet

    Mysterymet

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    1

    Occupy wasn’t completely Non violent but better than this.

    the occupy movement was not completely without violence but it was not anything close to the cluster F we find ourselves in now... the marxists are getting bolder. If they set off John and Jane Q Public anymore this could get Very Ugly , Very Quickly. I fear for the future of my country.

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  • Sat, Aug 29, 2020 - 10:31am

    Janie-em

    Janie-em

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    Joined: Mar 05 2020

    Posts: 47

    7

    Kamala Harris says:

    If Biden were to win, this will not go away in a heart beat

    Biden's running mate, the Democratic candidate for Vice President says so:

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  • Sat, Aug 29, 2020 - 10:48am

    #21

    thc0655

    Status: Platinum Member

    Joined: Apr 27 2010

    Posts: 2130

    7

    Marxist Angela Davis sees the riots as a necessary precursor to communist revolution

    https://freepressers.com/articles/marxist-angela-davis-riots-are-rehearsals-for-revolution

    The mayhem unleashed on America's cities by Black Lives Matter, Antifa and other anarchists is laying the groundwork for a larger "revolution" to bring about "radical change" to the capitalist system, Marxist activist Angela Davis said."Sometimes we assume the most important work is the dramatic work — the street demonstrations. I like the term that [Marxist cultural critic] John Berger used: Demonstrations are 'rehearsals for revolution,' " Davis told filmmaker Ava DuVernay in a Vanity Fair interview.The Black Lives Matter riots and “defund the police” movement represent the culmination of decades of radical left-wing activism, Davis said.Davis is a tenured professor (retired) at the University of California, Santa Cruz.

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  • Sat, Aug 29, 2020 - 11:06am

    ao

    ao

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    8

    yes, this video clip is very revealing

    Studying Kamala Harris and her book over the years, I've long asserted that this woman is dangerous, not only because of her ideas but especially because of her psychology.  She loves and craves power, not so much for helping people but for furthering her personal political ambitions and particularly for punishing her enemies and those with ideologies differing from hers.  As someone noted, she visibly lights up when discussing this topic and flashes what I call "the sociopath smile".  Most noteworthy is her statement," ... and everyone beware ..." (the bold is mine).  If that statement doesn't chill you to the bone, perhaps you have no ears to hear.  We ALL fall into the EVERYONE category.

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  • Sat, Aug 29, 2020 - 12:43pm

    #23
    centroid

    centroid

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    1

    centroid said:

    set yourself free America!. get rid of your guns!. educate yourself on classical economics and the power of hard money. bring on the Gold standard or the bitcoin standard! the pen is mightier than the sword!

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  • Sat, Aug 29, 2020 - 12:47pm

    #24

    Jim H

    Status: Bronze Member

    Joined: Jun 08 2009

    Posts: 1219

    9

    Lawlessness is having an effect on the electorate

    The female immigrant citizen who speaks starting at around 6:45 speaks for me... she says, "If my life has to be given up for it, I will do it" speaking of preserving our Freedom against the Marxist onslaught.  Powerful testimonials from callers to C-SPAN.  Michigan just flipped in the polls.

    This is not a political post.. This is not about political points of view.  This is about preserving the constitution vs. globalist deep state lies and subterfuge, and I am very, very glad that more are waking up.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GuD3eqPLh3c

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  • Sat, Aug 29, 2020 - 1:02pm

    robtompkins

    robtompkins

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    Posts: 22

    13

    robtompkins said:

    Marxists?, marxists?, marxists?  God what a bunch of blithering morons exist in this country, and post comments on this great website.  First of all, most all of the people talking about "marxists" here don't actually know what it means.  It does NOT mean communists.  Marxism refers to Karl Marx's analysis of the problems with capitalism, not to what came about in the Soviet Union and other such countries.  And what came about in those countries is best described as Vladimir Lenin did a year before he died.  He described what had been achieved at that point in the Soviet Union as "State Capitalism".  And unfortunately despite whatever efforts Stalin made, it NEVER got beyond that.  It was left as a horribly authoritarian, STATE controlled economy and country as a whole.  Which was NOT what Marx and other "communists" were aiming for.  And to somehow equate the protests going on now over the disgusting, seemingly never-ending racist treatment of blacks and other "people of color" by a certain percentage of whites (who I completely despise) as part of a "marxist" movement is truly stupid.  Wake up all of you simplistic thinkers who cannot understand the history of ongoing, violent racism in this country, nor understand what "marxism" is, nor understand the various types of "socialism", and especially do not understand the growing 21st century, bottom-up form of socialism consisting of the creation of democratic worker coops by people who see these as the way forward, and not involving any mandates or top down government authority to force their creation.  Grow up, wake up.  Fascism is what is growing in this country at the present time.  The short video below by Prof. Richard Wolff explains this very simply.  I would encourage all of the readers of Peak Prosperity to read and listen to what Prof. Richard Wolff has to say, and to learn about the BOTTOM UP approach to creating worker self directed enterprises, which is one of the very important solutions to the problems our country and all others around the world face.

     

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  • Sat, Aug 29, 2020 - 1:49pm

    Rootman

    Rootman

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    Posts: 80

    2

    Rootman said:

    Soros and his open society is not left wing.

    Instead, he has done more damage to it than anyone on earth by hollowing it out from within, by applying post modern identity politics originated in the Frankfurter schule.

     

    Although called cultural marxism, is has almost completely poisoned what used to be the left.  Big banks, like Goldman Sachs are already supporting BLM. That ought to be enough to indicate that this movement is completely pseudo.

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  • Sat, Aug 29, 2020 - 2:25pm

    Pipyman

    Status: Member

    Joined: Apr 24 2011

    Posts: 120

    10

    Thanks

    Yes, I too tire of hearing;

    communism, Marxism and a socialism as if they’re synonyms.

    What they are in contemporary USA, it seems to an outsider, is nothing but amorphous curse words.

     

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  • Sat, Aug 29, 2020 - 3:53pm

    #28
    dryam2000

    dryam2000

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    Joined: Sep 06 2009

    Posts: 417

    2

    Communication networking

    American Contingency is about a national communication network providing real-time intel on any type of unruly activity.  The website provides a lot of information. There is widespread intel providing local reports.  The mission is for law abiding folks to maximize their ability for self-defense.  No fee to join.  They do accept donations.  100% spam free.  Just join already.

    Podcast from 2 weeks ago...

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  • Sat, Aug 29, 2020 - 4:01pm

    #29

    Quercus bicolor

    Status: Silver Member

    Joined: Mar 19 2008

    Posts: 445

    15

    Neither left nor right

    Wow is the political intensity heating up from all directions.  Friends on the left are worried about Trump heading towards fascism - and they make a pretty good case for it.  (I know there is at least some exaggeration in this link, but there's truth in it too).  Friends on the right say we're heading for something just as sinister from the left (I won't use Marxism or Communism to refer to it per above discussion) - and they make a pretty good case for it.  I even have one friend who was always kind of new age woo woo fall for Q and suddenly turn into what seems like a Trump promoting robot.

    So definitely neither left nor right seem to be viable solutions right now.  At this point, the both seem to lead to pretty dark places.  As Chris has said integrity vs. ideological rigidity is a far more important axis.  Unfortunately, it seems we're going to get one or the other in November.

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  • Sat, Aug 29, 2020 - 4:32pm

    #30
    ezlxq1949

    ezlxq1949

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    Confusion of politics

    I echo robtompkins and pipyman: as another outside observer (in Oz), it seems to me that the labelling of political concepts in the US is very different to what I am used to. More US exceptionalism?

    For instance, in this country parties of the right and hard right are the ones who favour authoritarian regimes, an unregulated corporatocracy, neoliberalism, destruction of the biosphere for profit, ignorance of science, no billionaire left behind, and so on. Parties of the left, best described as socialist but never communist or Marxist, once upon a time stood for workers' rights and unions, environmental responsibility, a measure of redistributive taxation, housing for the poor, and the like. Like many other people, I grew up voting right but in my early 20s developed a conscience and voted left.

    I recall on some of my trips many years ago to the US encountering people waffling on about "the evils of socialised medicine." I don't think any of them had the faintest idea what they were talking about, except to parrot some journalist or politician or lobbyist. It was the Labor (leftish) government of Whitlam that introduced Medicare into this country, and obviated many of the problems chronically besetting the US sickcare system. Amazingly, our Medicare still exists and has widespread popular support, even while the hard right works steadily to undermine and destroy it. Profits before people.

    Sadly, parties of the left here have almost completely lost their way and now sound and act more and more like the wretched wastrel right. One party with two heads. Voting for any of them only encourages them. Sigh. Now, that is where we and the US surely must be in agreement!

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  • Sat, Aug 29, 2020 - 5:11pm

    Mohammed Mast

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    Occupy was Non Violent

    OWS was non violent on the part of the protesters. The violence came from police.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occupy_Wall_Street#:~:text=It%20was%20revealed%20that%20an,%2C%20commercial%2C%20and%20government%20services%2C

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  • Sat, Aug 29, 2020 - 5:16pm

    ao

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    I always wonder about folks like Richard Wolff

    He decries the capitalist system and espouses Marxian economics.  One would assume from his declarations that he believes a Marxist system is to be preferred over a capitalist system.  That being the case, why would he choose to live in a capitalist system as compared to a Marxist system?  What would his choice be as to the most successful Marxist system we've seen on the planet?  And if he demurs that there is no pure Marxist system operating on the planet, my question would be, why is that?  If it is the ideal (in his mind), why has it apparently never succeeded?

    I'm open to learning from any of the more knowledgeable posters on the practical application of Marxist theory who would care to expound on this issue.

    P.S. I would appreciate if robtompkins would avoid ad hominems such as "bunch of blithering morons" and keep the discussion civil.  I daresay some of those blithering morons may well possess IQs and levels of wisdom superior to yours (and so consider how you may be judging yourself).

     

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  • Sat, Aug 29, 2020 - 5:43pm

    ao

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    ezlxq1949, I regularly communicate with a friend in Australia

    His definition of the left and the right in Australia is decidedly different from yours and would take the opposite tack of your unabashedly "right is bad", "left is good" biased description of the two.  Of course, while you, from your post obviously favor the left, he favors just right of center.  He was an orphan, an immigrant, served in Vietnam in the Australian Defence Force (including fighting in the Battle of Long Tan), worked in both the public and private sectors and is a successful self-made man, is very scientifically minded, is opposed to authoritarian rule, is opposed to the corporatocracy, is opposed to government support of the billionaire elite, both values and protects the environment, supports traditional values, and is an agnostic but respectful of those with religious beliefs.  I value our friendship because he is a kind,  caring, respectful, highly intelligent and aware man of honor and integrity who, in every way shape and form, has made the world a better place because of his presence here.  My sense from him is that there is really very little difference between the left/right polarization in Australia as compared to the left/right polarization in the U.S.  It would seem it's all a matter of one's perspective.

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  • Sat, Aug 29, 2020 - 6:01pm

    Quercus bicolor

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    how can you be sure what their intentions were

    From the post article:

    Several members of the group were still in police custody Thursday, the Washington Post reports. Scheurle disputed accusations that the activists were going to use the gas for anything illegal.

    “It’s two giant vehicle and generators,” she told the newspaper. “We don’t have guns, we don’t have weapons. We’re there to feed people. That’s it.”

    One of the vehicles was a food truck.  Many food trucks use a generator.  They had generators.  Gas cans filled with gas a required to fuel a generator.  Sounds plausible to me.  Of course we can't be absolutely sure what their intentions were, but it sure is a leap just to assume they were arsonists.

    My I suggest this is a case of confirmation bias where you made unfounded assumptions to align with your beliefs?

     

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  • Sat, Aug 29, 2020 - 6:51pm

    Torii

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    Courteous Pushback

    The evidence of the last three miserable years credibly suggests that the foremost “willing disciple of communism,” in kitsinu’s words, is the useful idiot whose own motives and machinations—if you think he is clever enough to have a plan, which I doubt—are ripped from the pages of So Much Winning: An Aspiring Autocrat’s Guide to Destroying Democracy for Selfish Gain, V. Putin, 3rd ed. See chapter 8: “Divide and conquer to create totallie-tarry-o-tism.”

    A while back, I indicated in a comment how I plan to vote, and folks jumped on me for being “political.” Today commenters rabidly denounced American citizens seeking reason and reform and competent leadership as Marxists. Way to keep your own powder dry there, fellas. Thanks to commenters who offered courteous pushback to these specious political claims.

     

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  • Sat, Aug 29, 2020 - 7:09pm

    kitsinu

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    Make examples out of the rioters and those who aid and abet them.

    They also had illegal incendiary devices in their possessions.  Yes, fireworks.  The police will get their chance to prove that the gasoline was intended for nefarious purposes.  Simple if the gasoline was not in approved containers, such as glass bottles.

    And if it turns out they were feeding the rioters during the riots, that is aiding and abetting.  I want these monsters put away for decades, and I am far from alone.

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  • Sat, Aug 29, 2020 - 7:12pm

    kitsinu

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    2.3m views on that video

    And yes, it was well worth my time.

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  • Sat, Aug 29, 2020 - 7:45pm

    geevee

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    geevee said:

    I think we can acknowledge that things are changing, and that the old definitions don't need to apply. China is communist, but also capitalist. That doesn't work, does it?  Marx himself was funded by rich friends, so actually, it makes perfect sense.

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  • Sat, Aug 29, 2020 - 8:11pm

    ao

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    Torii, I'm still trying to gain some understanding here

    One of your sentences included the phrase "...American citizens seeking reason and reform and competent leadership as Marxists."  I'm not sure what this means.  Are you saying Marxists will provide reason, reform, and competent leadership?  If so, can you please give me a historical example where this occurred?  If not, could you please clarify?  Thank you.

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  • Sat, Aug 29, 2020 - 8:21pm

    Redneck Engineer

    Redneck Engineer

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    China: Capitalist or Communist?

    The best answer I've seen is in this video from George Gammon.

    https://youtu.be/MfX_GXPEUBQ

    The whole video is a good overview of Marxist economic and political theory, but jump to 23:10 to get the portion specifically about China, from Jeff Snider.

    China is, and has been, communist since Mao. They changed tactics after the fall of the USSR in order to (in their view) make their communist state last. We in the west didn't understand their apparent capitalism was a state-run transition phase. We saw it, mistakenly, as a rejection of communism.

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  • Sat, Aug 29, 2020 - 9:46pm

    Mysterymet

    Mysterymet

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    Wikipedia is NOT a reliable source

    https://www.foxnews.com/us/occupy-protests-plagued-by-reports-of-sex-attacks-violent-crime
    https://abcnews.go.com/us/sexual-assaults-occupy-wall-street-camps/story?id=14873014
    unless you don’t consider sexual assaults crimes

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  • Sun, Aug 30, 2020 - 3:39am

    #42

    sand_puppy

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    Last night in Charleston, SC

    The local news station and several insiders on the police force reported a variation on the protest/loot/burn/destroy pattern seen recently.

    Where as the police last time were admonished to stand back and for God's sake don't hurt anybody, yesterday their instructions were different:  Don't let them destroy the stores and properties.

    Something changed and the people of Charleston decided that they did not like having their stores burnt down.

    Protesters were smaller in number, about 100, and were outnumbered by police.  Police did not let protestors walk in the streets, only on the side-walks.  Arrests started immediately when protesters blocked traffic.  The whole thing was shut down and people sent home.  It sounds like the riot control techniques were pretty effective--isolating small groups and arresting them, turning the mob towards other streets, releasing people in groups of 2s and 3s to go to their cars and leave.

     

     

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  • Sun, Aug 30, 2020 - 6:38am

    davefairtex

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    neither left nor right?

    I'm a simple guy; I'm going to vote against the group lighting fires to stores, and beating people up in the streets, who tell us they want the police defunded.  You know, the gang wearing all black, and acting a whole lot like storm troopers, ruling by fear.  They say they are 'anti-fascist', but they act exactly like Stormtroopers - Team Hitler.

    So if someone condemns Antifa, I'm voting for them.  If someone fails to condemn Antifa, I'm voting against them.  That's pretty much it.

    Antifa = Nazi Stormtroopers.  If it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck - its a duck.

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  • Sun, Aug 30, 2020 - 8:30am

    robtompkins

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    robtompkins said:

    What Richard Wolff is promoting is growing an alternative sector of the economy consisting of Democratic Worker Coops, or as he calls them, Worker Self Directed Enterprises.  He is not talking about capturing the government and forcing changes upon existing enterprises, or preventing anyone from starting a capitalist-structured business.  While I may not agree with him on everything, he is doing a great service in waking people up to the inherent problems of capitalist structures and pointing to an alternative that can be grown from the bottom up.  And these types of enterprises already exist in many places all over the world.  So it is not some theoretical proposal.

    As far as the rather blunt terms and phrases I use to describe those claiming that people engaged in protests against the ongoing violent racism perpetuated by some police officers and others is somehow "marxist" or "communist", that is just being damn honest.  Come on, this is representative of the ridiculously simplistic, idiotic thinking that allowed Trump to become president in the first place.  Don't get me wrong, most all Democraps nowadays have drifted so far from being concerned about the working people of this country, small businesses, and the 90% in general, that I find myself now having to decide which candidate is the lesser of two evils every four years.  But what has happened to the Repugnantcan party over the last few decades is truly frightening, and Trump and his supporters are the latest and most extreme example of this far right move which relies on racism and fear to maintain support.  So it seems quite easy for those who do not want to learn about the continuing problems with our economy and racism to just equate BLM with "Marxism".  And that is just plain stupid.

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  • Sun, Aug 30, 2020 - 8:45am

    kitsinu

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    Marxist terrorists

    This is how the Marxists work.  They proclaim that they are fighting against some form of oppression, such as Fascism or Racism or both as we see today.  If you oppose them, they declare that you must be a Fascist or a Racist or both as we also see today.  Then they send out their supporters to declare that no, this isn't Marxist at all.  Then they proclaim that their opponents are ignorant of what real Marxism is, following by a distracting "what-about-ism".

    Tim Pool reported on these persons during Occupy Wall Street.  He says at one point, his tent with "Tim Pool" prominently marked in large letters, was stolen.  He tracked the tent down and was told that it had been given to the current owners by the leader of the Occupy Wall Street movement.  Speaking with the leader, he found this to be true and that the leader had confiscated the tent to redistribute to other persons in need, specifically that leader's friends.  That is what Marxists want.  They want to take the property of others and redistribute it to themselves and their supporters.  If they cannot do that, then they will spread destruction and fear until society capitulates to their demands.

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  • Sun, Aug 30, 2020 - 9:26am

    Quercus bicolor

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    Dave and others ...

    Dave, with all due respect, I've followed you long enough around here to know you are not a simple guy.

    Here is a template for what I see in many of the posts above:

    "I see one side (or the other) doing these bad things.  (present evidence: true, exaggerated, not true or a mix).  I hereby label them as (pick bad name).  I throw my support to the other side that opposes them (usually with no questions asked)."

    IMHO, this is exactly the kind of black or white bipolar thinking that I see as one of the major roots of the dangerous and growing divide I see out there.  Isn't the universe (and human society) a complex and nuanced place with multiple variables that interact in unpredictable ways?  This kind of thinking narrows it down to a single line that measures "leftness and rightness" and then strips out the middle ground leaving only the two extreme endpoints.  This kind of thinking can bring nothing but trouble.

    And finally, even if the world has divided this way and even if one side appears very bad to you because of your own personal constitution, that absolutely does not mean the other side is good even if they oppose the side you see as bad.

    Can we get some nuance and complexity into this discussion, please?

     

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  • Sun, Aug 30, 2020 - 9:34am

    stevedaly

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    Questions from Quercus #29

    Don't know how you Bar-B-Q where you come from.  Around here we use propane tanks attached to a grill for cooking food.  So why would you need that much gasoline for a small generator for lights?  As for the "illegal" commercial fireworks they found, here for your review is a bodycam video of police under attack in Seattle:

    UPDATED: Officers Injured, 18 Arrested During Riot in SODO

     

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  • Sun, Aug 30, 2020 - 10:07am

    Quercus bicolor

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    stevedaly ...

    Food trucks that are going to be preparing food over several days need significant electricity for refrigeration and to a lesser extent other uses (lighting, electric kitchen tools).  It would be interesting to see just what electrical equipment was in the food truck and how much power/gasoline it required compared to how much they had as well as the size of the generators relative to the amount of gasoline.

    As for the fireworks, that sounds more suspicious.  Of course, knowing how big they were and how many they had would tell us more.

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  • Sun, Aug 30, 2020 - 10:51am

    ao

    ao

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    robtompkins, I have no problem with worker coops

    Some of them have been successful and some have not.  Personally, I have long thought the idea had some merit.  In fact, one of the last places my father worked at tried to go that route.  However, it was unsuccessful for a variety of reasons.  Nevertheless, if they are a viable idea in the long term, they should proliferate and spread.  So far though, that has not happened to any large extent.  But one can remain hopeful.

    I do have a problem with ideological subversion tactics and strategies which are what BLM and Antifa are largely propagating, whether the majority of its members are aware of it or not (and perhaps functioning unknowingly as the classic "useful idiots").  It's interesting that now, when you look into the backgrounds of the 3 founders of BLM, their Marxist beliefs and declarations have largely been scrubbed from the media most commonly read by the public.  Hmm ... isn't that curious?  So now they are apparently hiding what they freely spoke and wrote about not too long ago.  The reason for that change is not difficult to discern.

    If you've looked into ideological subversion, it should be clear to you that the agendas of BLM and Antifa fit it to a 'T'.  If subversion is not at the core of what they are doing, doesn't it seem to be a remarkable coincidence?  However, I've long found confirmation of the statement made by the CIA that, in such matters, "There are NO coincidences".

    Here's another interesting coincidence.  A majority of the leaders of the black civil rights movement of the 1960s were church leaders who were operating out of a moral imperative that they felt came from God.  In stark contrast, the BLM movement of 2020 is vocally anti-God and, in fact, certain members of both BLM and Antifa have actually desecrated houses of worship and religious symbols.  Please tell me what that violent and destructive anti-God stance has to do with fighting against racism, unjustified police violence, etc.

    I agree with you that both American political parties have drifted from what they were at one time.  I also agree that being forced to choose the lesser of two evils is not much of a choice.  But I do know the fingerprints of Marxism when I see them and I can assure you that my thinking on this matter is neither simplistic nor idiotic nor stupid.

    By the way, if you want to get past the widely embraced but simplistic thinking on racism, watch the 1:03:54 long video by the Sandia National Labs electrical engineer, Casey Peterson, on critical race theory and his data driven conclusions.

    https://www.zerohedge.com/political/sandia-labs-goes-nuclear-employee-who-sparked-internal-revolt-over-critical-race-theory

    The question is, do people just want to go by emotionally driven popular but specious opinions and beliefs on the issue or are they willing to put in the time and effort to do the hard mental work and look at actual facts and data on the issue that are largely at odds with the politically correct but false prevailing narrative.

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  • Sun, Aug 30, 2020 - 11:23am

    #50

    Quercus bicolor

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    BLM and Antifa

    I agree that there is strong evidence that they both have Marxist aims that individual members may or may not be aware of or aligned with.

    There is another issue:  BLM and Antifa seem to have attracted a fairly large following who have neither found a place within, nor feel warm and fuzzy about the mainstream of America.  Why?  Are there real problems there? If so, how long have these problems been around?  How are they impacted by them?  What has driven them to join such a radical aggressive and even violent movement?  Of course, some of the same questions could be asked about the far right as well.

    And from a larger picture, why extremism now?  What has gone wrong?

    I think we all might have similar thoughts on these questions.  I also think they have gotten lost in the fray of choosing sides.

    I'll just articulate the questions from now.  Maybe later, I'll detail what I've heard from some younger friends who are aligned to greater or lesser degrees with the peaceful side of this movement and I'll elaborate on what parts of their opinions I agree with and to what extent.

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  • Sun, Aug 30, 2020 - 12:38pm

    agitating prop

    agitating prop

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    agitating prop said:

    "I think we can acknowledge that things are changing, and that the old definitions don't need to apply. China is communist, but also capitalist. That doesn't work, does it? Marx himself was funded by rich friends, so actually, it makes perfect sense."

    The U.S., China and Russia are crony capitalist fascist countries. Russia gave up it's totalitarian form of 'communism' and suffered intense neo-liberal abuse, as a result. Their oligarchs were born out of that wreckage. They now have more open markets but operate within a totalitarian structure.

    China played a long game, gave up communism, merged key industries with government but did not give up totalitarianism.  The perfect merging of state with an open economy under a dictatorship is textbook fascism.

    The republicans, through Trump, amassed terrific control through the use of social media, early on. They had the jump on the neo-liberals in that realm and appealed to rightful indignation of the underclass and the greed  of the super wealthy to great effect. Steve Bannon, Cambridge Analytica, etc...They have relied on atrocity propaganda, the same type that ushered Jews into gas chambers.  They ramped up fear of rampant pedophila, Hillary's abuse of children. Why, they even played the cannibal card, with 'evidence' that Podesta, an Obama official, engaged in blood rituals and human sacrifice. This is identical to the historical 'blood libel' nonsense that tarred Jews, for centuries, in Europe.

    I can't even believe I am writing this, in the modern era, it is so profoundly ridiculous. But, there you go. The alt right is  helping the neo-cons double down on fascism and it is very likely to take the form of a theocratic state. This isn't about freedom, it is about subterfuge, articulating the inarticulate in the minds of the dispossessed. It's what populists do. That's how they get in. By the time their adherents realize they have been snookered, it's too late. They have a lock on power. What is crucial is that they have a significant faction of the military behind them and local police forces. Sound familiar?

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  • Sun, Aug 30, 2020 - 12:50pm

    agitating prop

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    agitating prop said:

    IMHO, this is exactly the kind of black or white bipolar thinking that I see as one of the major roots of the dangerous and growing divide I see out there. Isn't the universe (and human society) a complex and nuanced place with multiple variables that interact in unpredictable ways? This kind of thinking narrows it down to a single line that measures "leftness and rightness" and then strips out the middle ground leaving only the two extreme endpoints. This kind of thinking can bring nothing but trouble.

    And finally, even if the world has divided this way and even if one side appears very bad to you because of your own personal constitution, that absolutely does not mean the other side is good even if they oppose the side you see as bad.

    Can we get some nuance and complexity into this discussion, please?

    People will reliably revert to fundamentalist thinking when they feel threatened. Human nature can be manipulated in any number of ways in times like these. Black and white thinking has survival advantage when you have to do a rapid threat assessment of what might harm you. It's best and will preserve your own sanity to understand that when people are this stressed out, they will not be able think clearly. In other words, speak your mind but don't expect to get far.

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  • Sun, Aug 30, 2020 - 12:51pm

    davefairtex

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    Antifa- the deniable enforcement arm

    A whole bunch of my friends are Democrats.  I used to be one too.  To a greater or lesser extent, they tacitly support Antifa.  That's where they just lose me.  Some force has whipped them into a frenzy over Trump.  This force desperately wanted HRC in 2016, and it has never been able to overcome the electoral loss to the Bad Orange Man.

    From the 50,000 foot view, I wonder: why can't we just have an election and accept the results without violence?  The nation will survive Trump, like it survived Obama, and Bush II, and Clinton, and Bush I, and even Reagan.

    But for some reason, this force finds this to be unacceptable.

    Try on this thought experiment.  Imagine for a moment, large groups of white people in red MAGA hats and shirts and gear, setting up checkpoints, forcing people to say the right slogans, beating them up if they don't, killing one every now and then to underline the point, looting stores, burning down buildings, all the while demanding that we defund the police - presumably, so mob rule would become that much easier.

    This environment would look a whole lot like Nazi Germany in 1932.  These would be red-shirted red-hatted fascists, because that's how fascism operates - through organized violence and intimidation, and ultimately, by killing people who disagree with their plan.

    If I saw Team Trump doing that, I'd want the police to come and throw them all in prison.  That's because they would be acting like fascists.  Like Nazis.  Like the KKK.  Like every evil organization in the world that we all loathe.

    Of course, Team Trump isn't doing that.  It's Antifa and BLM that are using organized violence and intimidation, winked at and tacitly supported by the Democrats, as the "enforcement arm" of the party - kept at arms length, of course.  But the understood theme is, "Trump is a bad man, and so we all secretly like it when Antifa or BLM beats up or even kills someone wearing a MAGA hat."  After all, "Trump is a racist."  Even though he apparently has a number of very loyal black friends.  Impossible to prove a negative, of course.  If I call you a racist, how exactly do you prove you aren't one?

    And so that's where we are.  No way I support this effort.  This is black and white to me.  I feel like I have seen this game play out before - in 1932 Germany - and I will oppose it happening in America in 2020 with everything I've got.

    Some evil force has hijacked Team Blue.  I can't point at individuals - I mean, maybe HRC is in there somewhere - but I can see the general thrust of things, and it has an evil core at its center that is manifesting in organized violence and intimidation very reminiscent of what the Jews had to endure in Germany in 1932.

    Team Blue needs to lose this election, so they stop pulling this crap and winking at the violence.  Violence cannot be rewarded.  If it is rewarded, it will become normalized and grow in strength the next time around.

    Maybe after such a loss, it would allow a reasonable candidate to appear - I liked Tulsi Gabbard a whole lot - who I could enthusiastically support.

    [And for the record I'm for national healthcare, stopping endless war, higher wages for US workers, amnesty for snowden, dismantling the "war on terror" machine starting with the NSA, busting the monopolies & trusts - all the stuff the "old-timey" Democrats used to be for, but don't seem to care about any longer.]

    But in 2020, it really is black and white.  For me anyways.

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  • Sun, Aug 30, 2020 - 1:07pm

    Quercus bicolor

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    Hmm.

    That's interesting Dave.  You see the left as the facsist/descent into darkness and violence risk, but not the right.  I see them both that way.  I'd love for you to read this article that portrays Trump as a fascist and debunk it for me.  I can see at least some exaggeration in there, but some of it rings true to me.  Maybe I'm falling victim to some subtle game that reaches into my long-ago liberal roots.

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  • Sun, Aug 30, 2020 - 1:14pm

    thc0655

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    It’s the 2020 witch trials!

    And we think we’re so advanced and sophisticated.

      If I call you a racist, how exactly do you prove you aren't one?

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  • Sun, Aug 30, 2020 - 1:21pm

    #56

    000

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    The Convention for People

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  • Sun, Aug 30, 2020 - 2:17pm

    davefairtex

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    12

    tweets vs organized violence

    QB-

    Trump tweets a lot.  They don't like that, because he's able to get around the media and talk directly to his base.  They also didn't like his convention.   He is always violating one convention or other.  "He looks like a tinpot dictator."   He probably tweets like one too.  He may talk about a Trump Army.  Just what is the Trump Army doing?  I don't see one in action.  I suspect CNN would cover it 24/7 if one appeared.

    Remember his "racist" travel ban?  Got overruled by the Supremes.  Sometimes he wins, sometimes he loses.  Is that Hitler?  I studied the period.  It never happened to Hitler. "OMG he used the White House as a campaign platform!"  Yep.  Hitler for sure.  Just one step removed from setting up concentration camps.

    Trump dispatching federal police to protect federal buildings?  That's bad too.  The locals would apparently prefer the federal buildings to be burned down, hopefully with the federal workers inside, so that Trump looks bad (and/or powerless) and loses in 2020.  Right after they defund their own police.  While keeping their own public-funded armed security teams.  If I lived in that city, I'd be furious at my safety being sacrificed on the altar of the 2020 campaign, while the weasels at the top continue to get armed police protection.

    On the other side, you have large organized groups of people using actual intimidation and violence on a scale that far surpasses the cases brought up - that one protest in Michigan (with no masks or social distancing!) and some pretty obnoxious tweets - vs the months of BLM protests which resulted in the actual looting and burning of mom & pop stores across America, hundreds of injured cops, and hundreds of dead civilians.

    Body-count-wise and property-destruction-wise, who wins?  BLM/Antifa, hands down.  Just do the math.

    MAGA hat wearers run boat parades.  BLM/Antifa?  They are establishing checkpoints, terrorizing anyone who won't say the right things, threatening mob violence against attendees of the RNC, beating up or killing people who wear the wrong hats.  It turns out, scale really matters.  And BLM and Antifa are totally winning the "scale" war.  It is lop-sided, because the violence is being winked at by Team Blue leadership, and well funded by ... somebody.

    I am not surprised that armed Trump supporters are finally appearing after months and months of organized BLM/Antifa violence.  But a violent reaction to a sustained campaign of organized violence does not equate to fascism.  In western legal thought, "who started it" really does matter.  It separates self defense from manslaughter and murder.

    Doesn't it strike you as odd that "the fascists" (wearing the wrong hats) are the ones being beaten up and killed?  And that's ok.  The guy wore the wrong hat.  Just like that kid from that Catholic school.  The nerve of him, wearing that hat.  And standing there.

    I'm still a Democrat.  I really do line up more with them - where they used to be anyway - I just wish the party would wake up and become reasonable again.

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  • Sun, Aug 30, 2020 - 2:31pm

    Oliveoilguy

    Status: Gold Member

    Joined: Jun 29 2012

    Posts: 853

    12

    Quercus and Dave

    Without getting into the weeds of your discussion, I have an observation. I think we are all programmed Beyond our rational understanding by the media we watch.
    I am building a house for a very intelligent and wealthy man who has worked at high levels of government in Pennsylvania and Texas. He is a fiscal conservative and disagrees with 90% of the democratic platform. He also hates trump with a passion. Although being intelligent he takes newscasts at face value (he watches NBC) every night. He often tells me stuff that is factually inaccurate and clearly has left spin on it. I don’t rebut his politics but interject facts whenever possible.

    It amazes me how the same factual event can be portrayed in polar opposite frames. I think honest people on both sides of the aisle are being lied to By the media and that We are probably less divided than we think.

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  • Sun, Aug 30, 2020 - 2:40pm

    #59

    davefairtex

    Status: Member

    Joined: Sep 03 2008

    Posts: 2251

    5

    training for organized violence

    While she calls it being a "trained organizer", by looking at the end product, it sure looks more like training for organized violence and intimidation to me.

    https://nypost.com/2020/06/25/blm-co-founder-describes-herself-as-trained-marxist/

    “The first thing, I think, is that we actually do have an ideological frame. Myself and Alicia in particular are trained organizers,” she said, referring to BLM co-founder Alicia Garza.

    “We are trained Marxists. We are super-versed on, sort of, ideological theories. And I think that what we really tried to do is build a movement that could be utilized by many, many black folk,” Cullors added in the interview with Jared Ball of The Real News Network.

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  • Sun, Aug 30, 2020 - 3:00pm

    davefairtex

    Status: Member

    Joined: Sep 03 2008

    Posts: 2251

    9

    less divided than we think

    OOG-

    It amazes me how the same factual event can be portrayed in polar opposite frames. I think honest people on both sides of the aisle are being lied to By the media and that We are probably less divided than we think.

    I agree.  And that's probably why we are being deliberately divided and lied to.  Otherwise, we might notice how much we agree, get together, and put an end to the harvesting, the endless war, and the constant surveillance, and that just wouldn't do.

    So all the media lets us talk about is "Defund the Police" and whether or not looting and burning is considered "mostly peaceful", instead of, say, national healthcare.

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  • Sun, Aug 30, 2020 - 3:29pm

    Susan7

    Susan7

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    17

    The Left and agitprop

    Agitated, it’s you that has been whipped into a frenzy of fear and loathing. It reminds me of that piece I read in 2016, where shortly after the election, a left wing man expressed fear that the plumber he had hired would attack him physically. It was appalling. But you can’t seem to acknowledge that the ACTUAL violence is coming from the left. I’m sorry to say this but you are the fascists you fear. You are the ones shutting down any speech you find doesn’t suit you. You justify this by claiming “error has no rights”. This is a totalitarian principle. You think nothing of destroying people’s livelihoods and promise more of the same after the election. In many areas, to wear a particular red hat is to invite assault and injury. Is this the kind of society you want? If anyone is in danger of being targeted these days, it’s not the Jews. It will be those who refuse to fall in with this destructive groupthink, critical race theory, phony oppression narratives and other non-reality-based dogmas. I’m sad for my country and I dread what I see coming. But this is the time to gather and strengthen what remains, to encourage all people of goodwill of whatever race or economic background to resist these totalitarian impulses from either camp.

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  • Sun, Aug 30, 2020 - 3:48pm

    #62
    ao

    ao

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    these beliefs boggle the mind

    Author Vicky Osterwell writes a book, "In Defense of Looting" and NPR interviews her as if she has just written a trendy new cookbook.

    https://www.npr.org/sections/codeswitch/2020/08/27/906642178/one-authors-argument-in-defense-of-looting

    It reminds me of Jonathan Swift's satire, A Modest Proposal, in which he proposes preventing the children of poor people from being a burden to their parents or country and for making them beneficial to the public ... by eating them!

    The sad thing is Swift's book was satire but this young woman actually believes what she has written!  What I've noted is that when you dig into the background of most people of this ilk, one very often finds deep dysfunction.  Unfortunately, this dysfunction is rarely addressed and resolved but finds expression in adulthood in perverse and/or distorted behavior.  We are collectively reaping what we as a society have sown.

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  • Sun, Aug 30, 2020 - 4:14pm

    #63
    Redneck Engineer

    Redneck Engineer

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    Posts: 134

    10

    Risk of Social Unrest

    Adam began his post by reporting how readers are significantly concerned about social unrest breaking out in their local community. Estimating the odds requires understanding the root cause of social unrest.

    The general concern has to do with unrest arising from extreme economic hardship brought about by unjust policies, e.g., government choosing to reward its cronyist patrons at the expense of unconnected citizens, or Federal Reserve policies punishing savers at the expense of debtors, or bailouts of the well-connected following massive losses of risky investments.

    I'm not seeing that anywhere, and I've been looking for it since March.

    The well-covered "protests" since George Floyd's death have a different character. Groups like BLM and Antifa are prominent; police are often directed by politicians (mayors, governors) to not interfere or are at least restrained from shutting them down; etc.

    These latter events are not random. They occur, and persist, in locations where there is some level of political support for them. The rioters moving into rural or suburban areas which do not support them are quickly challenged by local residents, or shut down by police.

    Are there examples of these riots taking place in Republican-majority towns and cities, and persisting? I don't know of any, but I welcome correction if I am wrong here.

    The importance here is understanding what these current riots are and are not, and what larger meaning they have. They may be the start of a SHTF, TEOTWAWKI social collapse - or (as I see it) they are a milder social upheaval than was seen in the 60s, but deliberately co-opted by political groups for political ends, with media and government providing cover.

    Understanding the difference is key to seeing what one's personal level of risk is. If I lived near downtown Seattle, I'd be far more concerned than if I lived in, say, an upscale suburb in TX.

    At least for now, I don't see this escalating further, and I don't see this as an immediate threat to most of the country.

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  • Sun, Aug 30, 2020 - 4:18pm

    #64
    DennisC

    DennisC

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    Posts: 195

    2

    Fresh Fruit for Rotting Vegetables

    Efficiency and progress is ours once more
    Now that we have the Neutron bomb
    It's nice and quick and clean and gets things done
    Away with excess enemy
    But no less value to property
    No sense in war but perfect sense at home

    The sun beams down on a brand new day
    No more welfare tax to pay
    Unsightly slums gone up in flashing light
    Jobless millions whisked away
    At last we have more room to play
    All systems go to kill the poor tonight

    Kill the Poor - by Dead Kennedys

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  • Sun, Aug 30, 2020 - 4:43pm

    #65
    Barbara

    Barbara

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    Joined: Dec 15 2009

    Posts: 190

    3

    Covid Brain from reliable source

     

    https://www.amenclinics.com/blog/covid-brain-the-lasting-impacts-you-havent-heard-about/?trk_msg=T3AO086DLHO4P91D62E3M8VNV0&trk_contact=JQ9MKMNF47JMOIUNIUNIKEA1PC&trk_module=new&trk_sid=NG2NFELDVVD7D6F54EEM290GMG&utm_source=ACI-Listrak&utm_medium=Email&utm_term=Read+More&utm_campaign=Newsletter&utm_content=Blog

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  • Sun, Aug 30, 2020 - 5:39pm

    agitating prop

    agitating prop

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    3

    agitating prop said:

    Well Susan7, I was perfectly calm when I wrote that and most of your criticisms don't apply to me. So let's keep this civil, shall we? Propaganda is an emotional exercise and I simply don't care to indulge.

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  • Sun, Aug 30, 2020 - 5:42pm

    #67
    Barbara

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    2

    To the RNC and DNC - a plague on both your houses

    I think from the comments above, many of us are seeing the same thing - neither party has escaped the depths of corruption.  We really can't again hold our noses and vote for the lesser of two evils.  When IS the last time you voted FOR someone running for national office instead of voting against the biggest jerk on the ticket.

    Bret Weinstein thinks he's going to put a shot across the bows of the corrupt washington duo-opoly.  I'm not at all sure he's not a day late and a dollar short -- OK a year late and a billion $ short, but perhaps we need to look at every organized attempt to reject candidates we can't support from obviously corrupt primary processes.  I mean really, the computer system the DNC installed to record Iowa caucuses (grass roots democracy in action) just happened to not work and now the DNC says no more caucuses. Ad-nauseum.

    Take a look at what they're doing.  If the fuss gets big enough and broadly based, perhaps the 60-70% of Americans that don't agree with either extreme nutcases might have an influence on politics again.   Somebody above calculated 300,000 terrorists causing the leftist anarchy and violent right isn't any bigger.  You know, we could all just say H*** NO!

    A short summary of what they’re trying to do now.

    An interesting discussion of why we trust some people, while we find other abrasive people not useful.  This is the best place to start your thinking on the topic of civil discourse in the search for the truth.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XxlVAbc1Vjo

    This is where they are in Aug.

    Here’s the Unity website.  https://articlesofunity.org/the-vision/

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  • Sun, Aug 30, 2020 - 6:21pm

    Quercus bicolor

    Status: Silver Member

    Joined: Mar 19 2008

    Posts: 445

    1

    media

    I agree about media.  I must say that I rarely read any mainstream media.  Lately, I've been in communication with people from both sides of the divide and am trying to read whatever they present to me.

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  • Sun, Aug 30, 2020 - 6:27pm

    Quercus bicolor

    Status: Silver Member

    Joined: Mar 19 2008

    Posts: 445

    5

    Why?

    I don't get why the democrats would tacitly support the violence.  Don't they know that the law and order backlash from it, easily exploited by the Trump campaign, is a powerful tool for the Republicans to gain in the polls?

    Possible explanations:

    1. They've lost touch with reality.
    2. They can't bring themselves to come down hard on it or can't find a way to oppose the violence without losing vote.
    3. They intend to instigate a fascist coup.
    4. There's some bigger agenda than getting a democrat in the White House.

    What do you think Dave?

     

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  • Sun, Aug 30, 2020 - 7:06pm

    Nate

    Nate

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    Joined: May 05 2009

    Posts: 479

    7

    Dems & violence

    1. They've lost touch with reality.
    2. They can't bring themselves to come down hard on it or can't find a way to oppose the violence without losing vote.
    3. They intend to instigate a fascist coup.
    4. There's some bigger agenda than getting a democrat in the White House.

    Four out of four.  Home run.  Glad you get it.

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  • Sun, Aug 30, 2020 - 7:07pm

    stevedaly

    stevedaly

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    6

    Barbara #65, This was an amazing link

    I started the HCQ treatment because of sore throat I couldn't shake and dramatic drop in my coordination which may have been attributed to COVID damaging my nerve cells that produce dopamine as related to my Parkinsons.  The article you provided us discusses this:

    Other scientific findings suggest the virus may disrupt the production of neurotransmitters, such as dopamine and serotonin.

    One problem with deciding to start treatment is that by the time symptoms are severe enough to confirm COVID you may already have permanent damage.  Thank you to the absolutely brilliant Dr. Mayer for being on top of the many ways COVID can accomplish infection.

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  • Sun, Aug 30, 2020 - 10:13pm

    davefairtex

    Status: Member

    Joined: Sep 03 2008

    Posts: 2251

    18

    the ticking clock

    QB-

    1. They've lost touch with reality.
    2. They can't bring themselves to come down hard on it or can't find a way to oppose the violence without losing vote.
    3. They intend to instigate a fascist coup.
    4. There's some bigger agenda than getting a democrat in the White House.

    When the violence first started, I suspected that these violent Antifa people might just be undercover Team Red operatives, because I thought it was just that stupid of an idea for exactly the reason you mention.  But - I tell you - my friends on facebook really do wink at the violence.  Some initially supported it, to my shock.  The unspoken conclusion is that people who support Trump and wear that Red Hat are so horrible, they deserve whatever happens to them, and Antifa is a sort of one-degree-separated karma.

    And as Chris points out, it just requires a single degree of separation for normal people to be ok with something happening that they wouldn't do themselves - poisoning groundwater, smashing Jewish businesses, etc.

    Again, my observation is that Team Blue "normals" have been deliberately whipped into a frenzy of hatred by a "Mockingbird" operation from the controlled media.  If your information source is poisoned ("HCQ doesn't work - IT WILL KILL YOU"), then you don't act rationally.  So #1: yes, for the normals.

    But why?  That's the part I don't know.  Some group (the leadership?) is desperate to regain power.  Its as if there were a ticking clock.  Maybe if Trump is in there too long, he'll find out some secret that will blow the place up, and they need him removed before he can discover it.  I'm making stuff up because - while I don't have evidence for what it might be, the sense of urgency is palpable.  Someone needs Trump gone now.  They just can't wait 4 years.  They've bent the entire media to that end.  Fair and balanced is just gone.  Fox is still annoying, but in just four years, CNN has become unwatchable.

    Was there this level of urgency with Reagan?  No.  Clinton?  A little bit.  The horrible Bush II (and the actual president, Cheney)?  No.  But Trump is allegedly just that awful.

    Watching him govern, and having studied both history and political science, I really don't see any reason for the urgency.  His nuttier things are corralled by the courts, and some of his stuff is actually pretty reasonable.  Watching him in office, it appears as though our system of government, with its checks and balances, really does seem to work.

    So I don't get the urgency.  He's certainly no worse than Bush II - arguably better, actually.  He didn't destroy any new countries - contrast vs Obama, whom I voted for - and who destroyed three, who got that peace prize for not-being-Bush II, and let every banker go free.  So there is something seriously afoot re 4), but I can't tell you what it is, or why.

    So that's 1) yes, normals have been brainwashed by the CNN/mockingbird op, and 2) leadership appears to be desperate, and is facing a ticking clock of some sort, so they feel they have no choice, and 3) HRC: "don't concede", and my guess is, Antifa/BLM will go nuts on Nov 4th if Biden doesn't win outright, and 4) most definitely, yes.

    The big mystery is the ticking clock.  Someone appears to be under some serious time pressure.  What the pressure is, I can't say.  But there is a ticking clock at work here.  If Trump isn't escorted out of the Oval soon, "something" will come to an end, so leadership in my old party is now acting irrationally.

    One possible example: Fauci is an operative, been in place for decades, and he is working overtime making sure we have no "standard of care" that really works for our current virus.  I can't say why he is doing this.  But that's what is happening.  Until very recently, I didn't realize how badly he behaved during the AIDS crisis in the 80s.  He's been an evil operator for a very long time.  To my shame, I didn't notice, because it wasn't affecting me.

    https://www.huffpost.com/entry/whitewashing-aids-history_b_4762295

    How many other treatments has he torpedoed that we don't know about?  HCQ, perhaps artemisia, and maybe ivermectin could be generic anti-viral medications.  Clioquinol + zinc might just be a universal cancer treatment.  Yet no studies get funded.  Why do we think that is?

    In early 2000s, there were more-than-hints that HCQ could be an HIV medication.  It worked in vitro, as it did with SC2.  So - any Fauci-funded studies on that?  I encourage you to go and look.  There was a Gates-funded study too, on CQ with HIV, in Africa.  Go look and see how that one went - although that one is a bit harder to find - Gates removed his name from it ex post facto.  There are a lot of bodies that have been buried over the years.

    Fauci is very charming - and an example of Team Blue leadership that just needs to be swapped out for someone less sociopathic.  I expect Trump will do just that, if re-elected.  Perhaps this prospect, among others, is the reason for the urgency.

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  • Mon, Aug 31, 2020 - 3:59am

    VTGothic

    VTGothic

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    Joined: Jan 05 2020

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    9

    RE "Ticking Clock": The why might not be too mysterious

    I think it could be as easy as: the international statist-leaning cabal of governors - that crowd who believe the underlying theme of the World Economic Forum (WEF), and who meet regularly in Davos to advance it, and who think expert leaders both can run the world better than us ragamuffins who think we should vote on everything affecting our lives, and who think they must run the world better, at a lower standard of living for the hoi polloi, because resources are running out - want to reset the global economy.

    This pandemic (whether intentional or not is functionally irrelevant) is, for that crowd, the perfect opportunity that must not be wasted, as WEF founder Klaus has said (see link, and rummage around the site a bit). HRC was already bought and would have cooperated. Trump - clearly to all of us, of whatever political persuasion - doesn't cooperate; it's not in his genes and he can't be bullied, blackmailed, or bought. But as US president he is the one force, really the one man, capable of frustrating the opportunity.

    We know he is perfectly willing to stand against the world's current level of good order; he is surely prepared to frustrate plans for advanced harmonization of world governments and economies for the good of the planet...and of those who want to manage both. Get rid of Trump and the opportunity can be realized - next year's economic reset would then face no effective opposition. So: all stops out; multi-pronged attack engaged.

    It could be that simple.

    https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2020/06/now-is-the-time-for-a-great-reset/

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  • Mon, Aug 31, 2020 - 9:31am

    #74
    dreutter

    dreutter

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    Posts: 2

    1

    Revenge of the Snowflakes

    New gun buyers? Gee wonder who would be buying guns for the first time. History tells us that we should fear the Left. They were the power behind the French Revolution. When they got done with the aristocracy they went at each other. They are slow to rouse, and hell to stop. The protesters in Kenosha would have killed boy Hitler, if hadn't fired his weapon into a crowd. The police should have disarmed him for his own safety.  Self Defense, get it? Here's your voting choices. Vote Biden and he will paper over all the problems, (circa 2008) including wealth disparity, and corporate control of all aspects of your life, like vaccinations. Status quo. Or you can vote Trump and support the revolution. Trump is a fat lazy foul mouth who can't hit a golf ball without falling over.  It's a tough choice. No winners. Take care of your own neighborhood, and turn the other cheek, and you will do fine.

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  • Mon, Aug 31, 2020 - 9:57am

    Doug

    Doug

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    Posts: 1474

    2

    Doug said:

    I'm not Dave, but let me briefly respond:

    "I don't get why the democrats would tacitly support the violence."

    The fifth option of your possibilities, is that they don't.  Biden/Harris and as far as I've seen, the entire Democrat establishment, is vociferously and repeatedly objecting to the violence and urging protesters to rid them from their ranks (to the extent they exist at all in those ranks).  I don't understand why commenters here think otherwise.  Perhaps if those commenters paid a little attention to the msm, they would know better.

    Another point, as I have pointed out repeatedly in this forum, there is no organization called Antifa.  There are no incorporation papers, no command structure, no board meetings, none of the trappings of a real organization.  Antifa is an abbreviation for anti-fascist.  So, apparently anyone who shares that belief can be thought of as member in good standing.  I don't know why anyone wouldn't share that particular belief.

    A third point.  I've found it curious how little notice has been paid to Trump's rhetoric.  He and his band of warriors, many of whom share his last name, have been loudly proclaiming that the kind of violence we are seeing today will be seen in a Biden administration.  They apparently don't see the irony in the fact that it is already being seen in the Trump administration.  A little hard to blame that on Biden as he hasn't been employed by the government for four years.

    Doug

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  • Mon, Aug 31, 2020 - 10:54am

    davefairtex

    Status: Member

    Joined: Sep 03 2008

    Posts: 2251

    6

    received: an official denial

    The fifth option of your possibilities, is that they don't.

    Well this is what I've been waiting for - it is as close to an official denial as we are likely to get.  Doug, the representative of the Team Blue inner circle here at PP, has spoken.

    Another point, as I have pointed out repeatedly in this forum, there is no organization called Antifa.

    Antifa doesn't exist?  Those people dressed in black, beating people up?  They don't exist?  Whoa.  I am just so confused.

    https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/gaslighting

    Gaslighting is a form of psychological abuse where a person or group makes someone question their sanity, perception of reality, or memories.

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  • Mon, Aug 31, 2020 - 11:16am

    #77

    davefairtex

    Status: Member

    Joined: Sep 03 2008

    Posts: 2251

    4

    Mr Gates: normalcy only returns when...

    You know what comes next.

    "Normalcy only returns when we have largely vaccinated the entire global population."

    Sounds like a pretty good profit opportunity for someone who develops a vaccine.  Or two.  7.5 billion customers.  And you'll need one every year.  Maybe even two per year.  And they won't provide immunity, either.  They'll just reduce symptoms.  And they largely won't work for fat people, or old people.  So we are told by the Assistant to Mr Vaccine, Anthony Fauci.

    https://youtu.be/BE518ans5dM

    When you watch this video, how do you feel?

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  • Mon, Aug 31, 2020 - 12:08pm

    MarkM

    MarkM

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    3

    LLC or S corp?

    I've been looking for the incorporation papers for the KKK, SDS and the Black Panthers.

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  • Mon, Aug 31, 2020 - 12:23pm

    travissidelinger

    Status: Member

    Joined: Nov 17 2010

    Posts: 186

    2

    Road to Fascism

    Robtompkins,

    Your Prof. Richard Wolff's video.  Wow, that was really good.  I'm going to see what else he's posted.

    I'm still reading through all the comments here.  But as we watch the fracturing of this country it seems we have a number of distinct paths forming before us.

    Did anyone else here watch this video?

    https://youtu.be/zyNW9nlFDBk

    It came out on Zerohedge last week.  I have watched it twice now.  It seems very well put together with an analyst backed by data and scientific methodology.  This is kinda scary stuff that's happening.

    -Travis

     

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  • Mon, Aug 31, 2020 - 12:30pm

    Doug

    Doug

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    Posts: 1474

    1

    Doug said:

    I can't speak about the SDS or Black Panthers, but the KKK is a real organization.  Else, it couldn't have lost its property to lawsuits:

    Forty Years Ago, They Changed How Hate Groups Are Sued

    https://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/11/12/klan.sued/index.html

    "In 2000, for example, the center won a $6.3 million jury verdict that forced Aryan Nations leader Richard Butler to give up the group's Idaho compound. In 1987, a $7 million verdict in Mobile, Alabama, targeted the United Klans of America."

    You can't sue an entity that doesn't exist.

    Doug

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  • Mon, Aug 31, 2020 - 12:39pm

    Grover

    Grover

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    Joined: Feb 15 2011

    Posts: 795

    3

    Time Marches Onward

    davefairtex wrote:

    The big mystery is the ticking clock.  Someone appears to be under some serious time pressure.  What the pressure is, I can't say.  But there is a ticking clock at work here.  If Trump isn't escorted out of the Oval soon, "something" will come to an end, so leadership in my old party is now acting irrationally.

    Dave,

    It really isn't a mystery to me. I see social security, medicare, promised government pensions, horribly underfunded. With the rapid aging of the populace, there will be more expenditures and less income (taxes.) All the social security and medicare taxes that have been collected over the years have been spent on pork barrel projects so politicians could gain favor from their constituents. Those tax moneys have been replaced by irredeemable bonds.

    As of 8/26/2020, https://www.treasurydirect.gov/govt/reports/pd/pd_debttothepenny.htm

    • Intragovernmental Holdings: $5,909,612,962,437.01

    • Public Debt: $20,706,040,194,248.80

    • Total Debt: $26,615,653,156,685.81

    Those bonds are the Intragovernmental Holdings listed above. We could completely wipe those off the books and it wouldn't change what we owe one iota. Think of it as having cash in your pocket, but you want to spend it. So, you write yourself an IOU that you put in your other pocket to justify spending the cash. Now that the money has been spent, do you have the cash? If your phony IOU to yourself got lost or destroyed, would you be any richer or less broke?

    At least the federal government can still figure out how to borrow as much as needed with no intention of ever paying it off - thanks to the federal reserve. The States/counties/cities don't have that option. At some point, investors in that debt will demand higher interest rates to compensate for the risk that they may not be able to repay the debt. Higher interest rates mean higher debt costs. Unless taxes go up, their public expenditures need to decrease to compensate for the shortage of tax money. Unfortunately, citizens of those States/counties/cities have allowed fiscal mismanagement to balloon in order to keep taxes lower than needed to fund the promises.

    Lots of the liberal States are essentially bankrupt. Their options are extremely limited. As they raise taxes beyond already punishing levels, their productive citizens will leave for greener pastures. If the States don't raise taxes or cut spending, borrowing costs will eat up all their revenue. They'll have their Minsky Moment.

    What would solve this dilemma? If the federal government were to bail out all the bankrupt States/counties/cities. As long as Trump is president, that won't happen. What about the dire predictions made by AOC, et al. in 2018 that we only have 12 years to implement the Green New Deal? Now, we only have a decade left before everything blows up. If Trump gets reelected, there's another 4 years gone. I'm sure there are more reasons for Team Blue to feel the pressure.

    Grover

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  • Mon, Aug 31, 2020 - 12:51pm

    #82
    agitating prop

    agitating prop

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    agitating prop said:

    In Portland the protests started out somewhat peacefully and were kind of petering out when the military showed up. And of course, human nature being pretty reliable, the protest became truly violent afterwards.  Rather then let the embers die out, sending the military in whipped them up. This was no mistake. It's a well known, well defined pattern.

    Some people are on the streets battling for freedom, some are on the streets battling because they are young and it's exciting, some are there to "get stuff."  I wouldn't minimize or discount some negative intent there. But, ultimately, who benefits and who are the "hidden" donating agencies funding BLM? Varying agendas there as well, but I don't doubt that some of them are funding protests in the hopes they DO become violent because it furthers their hard right fascist desires.

    Republicans funded Ralph Nader in 2000.  Just sayin'. You may think you're enlightened because you don't watch MSM, so good on you!  You've removed the first layer of the onion!  You get a gold star!  Now, your next assignment is to approach YouTube videos and alternative media the same way.  Understand that social media is as much or more compromised, not just by political forces but with a lot of unsubstantiated nonsense. It's a crazy gossip mill on steroids.

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  • Mon, Aug 31, 2020 - 1:03pm

    agitating prop

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    agitating prop said:

    The democrats are war mongers who are supported by limo-liberals who can't see through the b.s. As far as black lives mattering, it was Clinton who passed the three strikes law that incarcerated and virtually enslaved a huge percentage of the young black and male population.

    The first order of the day for any truly fair government in the U.S. should be to outlaw for-profit prisons, and bring alignment of sentencing for blacks and whites for the same offences.

    Then policing has to demilitarize and change and people have to realize that is what 'defunding' means.  It means eliminating the techniques and mindset of warfare, within the departments and teaching deescalation.

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  • Mon, Aug 31, 2020 - 1:16pm

    VTGothic

    VTGothic

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    Antifa: 'cause a bad idea seems to never die

    Doug said:

    there is no organization called Antifa

    Really? But they have a flag. And decals. And a listing in Wikipedia. (Did you bother to Google them?) I guess if they don't file papers with the government they don't really exist. Or, Doug, that argument's a canard.

    The original Antifa was a direct action crowd active in Germany in the early 1930s. Same flag. Just reversed direction, and today 2 colors rather than just one. Huh. Curious coincidence for an organization that doesn't exist.

    Here's the kicker: the German Antifa was organized by the German Communist Party, the International version - which means, the one taking orders from Stalin. It's purpose was to battle with Hitler's Brown Shirts for control of Germany.

    Mr. Stalin was not happy that Mr. Hitler was a national socialist rather than international socialist. Mr. Stalin considered that unacceptable residual bourgeois sentimentality, hence hopelessly "right wing." He hoped his German goons could wrest control on the streets. Sadly for him, Germany's international socialists lost that battle and were purged and persecuted by Mr. Hitler.

    However, Mr. Stalin lived to advocate another day by joining the Allies to defeat Mr. Hitler. After the War, a great many intellectual and influential Western Europeans and Americans waxed euphoric about Mr. Stalin's progressive, scientific approach to government...while millions were starved and oppressed.

    Meanwhile, German international communists wandered across the pond and took up residence in various American universities, where they dutifully advanced the image of Stalin's advanced, communist culture through publications, public education institutions, and popular media. As a result, as late as today we have properly educated Democrat leaders advocating for the elimination of borders. After all, every worker should be free to travel to any country to work.

    You know: "workers of the world unite." International socialism.

    Apparently they brought Antifa with them. Or, Mr. Putin has resurrected it. Or, a bunch of scruffy post-adolescents really know their obscure German history and thought they'd model themselves after the first Antifa, right down to the thuggery and emblematic flag. Or, maybe it's all just a big fat coincidence.

    'Cause whodathunkit? I mean, other than people who pick up history books written before PC made critical thinking a racist and elitist form of oppression against the poor, disadvantaged, distracted, and gullible.

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  • Mon, Aug 31, 2020 - 1:18pm

    travissidelinger

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    "real organization"

    You can't sue an entity that doesn't exist.

    What if they just don't have any land or quantifiable resources to go after?  I see your point, but perhaps correlation is not causation?

    -Travis

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  • Mon, Aug 31, 2020 - 1:54pm

    Doug

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    Doug said:

    If they don't exist in a legal sense, they can't own property.  Also, if a real entity doesn't own anything, they are "judgment proof.". They can be sued, but you won't get anything.

    VTgothic.  Ok, sue them.  See how far you get.

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  • Mon, Aug 31, 2020 - 2:16pm

    Quercus bicolor

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    Sueing them isn't the point

    If they are not incorporated as a legal entity they can't be sued.

    But, if they effectively act like a actual entity with significant influence and impact and real leaders who can communicate directly or indirectly with other organizations, why does the fact that they aren't incorporated matter?  To the individuals who have been taunted and beaten up as well as to the businesses that have been vandalized and looted, it sure doesn't.  Except that they have no recourse to sue anyone other than the individuals involved.

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  • Mon, Aug 31, 2020 - 2:32pm

    #88

    Quercus bicolor

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    Best information on the two Kenosha shooting incedents

    The police shooting: https://www.nationalreview.com/2020/08/what-we-know-about-the-jacob-blake-shooting/

    What is known: Jacob Blake had arrest warrants, he resisted arrest including an attempted tasing.  He was reaching into his car when shot.  There was a knife on the driver's side floor.  The officers mentioned the knife as he was walking around the car.

    What is not known: Was he in possession of the knife before he reached his car?

    Likely outcome: The officers involved will be acquitted.  This was justifiable self defense.  Of course, this case, like others should be examined to learn about making safer arrests and what we can do to create a society where everyone is better supported in living more functional and productive lives. We have a lot to learn in those areas.

    Kyle Rittenhouse shooting: https://www.nationalreview.com/2020/08/does-kyle-rittenhouse-have-a-self-defense-claim/?utm_source=recirc-desktop&utm_medium=blog-post&utm_campaign=river&utm_content=more-in&utm_term=first

    What is known: Rittenhouse, 17, was driven to the scene by his mom with his rifle.  He was apparently involved in some effort to protect a car dealership.  He freely offered medical assistance to anyone.  He was chased twice.  The first chase ended when he shot the first person.  He fell in the second chase and shot the 2nd murder victim as he was being rushed.

    What is not known: What prompted the chases?  Was he taunting or threatening those who chased him?  Were they trying to hurt him or simply disarm him.

    Likely outcome: He will likely be convicted of underage firearms possession and reckless-endangerment.  Depending on what is learned about the events leading up to the shooting, he could be acquitted of murder on self defense grounds or convicted of 2nd degree murder.  1st degree murder is a stretch.

    Lots of crazy stuff - like rioting to protest what is likely a justifiable homicide in self defense.  But of course, allowing our country to degenerate to a point that there is so much rage or despair is an issue too.  Then driving what is possibly a well-intentioned, but overenthusiastic and certainly inexperienced 17-year old to the scene of a likely riot armed with a rifle is perhaps the most serious parenting mistake I've come across.

     

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  • Mon, Aug 31, 2020 - 3:12pm

    #89

    000

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    Robert F Kennedy Jr in Berlin 28 aug 2020

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  • Mon, Aug 31, 2020 - 3:15pm

    000

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    So Glad we're making progress

    7 shots in the back is better than 42. Real progress.

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  • Mon, Aug 31, 2020 - 4:05pm

    #91
    nordicjack

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    Regarding the two shootings

    Shooting someone in retreat or egress is murder.  Even if someone robbed or raped you in your home and then was leaving and running out the front with his back towards you, and you got your gun and fired,  its not self-defense..  You are cooked.   you can't do it after the fact.  The same is with blake.   I dont care who he was , and what he did.   You don't fire 7 times into ones back because he might or might not do somethign because who you think he is or what he had previously done.  You fire when he is doing... what he is doing now..   Sorry officer needed to wait to see what he was doing.. its not hard to watch a guy when you already have your gun in your hand.  You shot first and asked questions later.. Time to go to jail if I am the Jury.

    As for the, the kid - second shooting was clear self-defense.   Did not see the first,  But my guess is you dont taunt someone with a weapon..    Its like saying please shoot me,  It was clear by one witness who was trying to enter the parking lot that he taunted the the kid even before the victim did.  So, you think there wasnt some gang mentality going on?  I am sure the kid had to shoot for his defense.  You think he started shooting because they just decided to leave an armed lot and head elsewhere?  I know the answer to this..   You do not need be on a private lot, when armed people are protecting it. FROM YOU BEING ON IT . Its this simple. UNLESS YOU WERE SHOT IN THE BACK WHILE LEAVING!!

    But since our justice system doesnt care about justice and the good guy.. Except who they deem to be the good guy because of bias, I am sure they will get it 100% wrong and the cop walks, and the kid is locked up for 25 years.

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  • Mon, Aug 31, 2020 - 5:41pm

    thc0655

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    “Best information”

    QB:

    What is known: Jacob Blake had arrest warrants, he resisted arrest including an attempted tasing.  He was reaching into his car when shot.  There was a knife on the driver's side floor.  The officers mentioned the knife as he was walking around the car.

    What is not known: Was he in possession of the knife before he reached his car?

    Likely outcome: The officers involved will be acquitted.  This was justifiable self defense.  Of course, this case, like others should be examined to learn about making safer arrests and what we can do to create a society where everyone is better supported in living more functional and productive lives. We have a lot to learn in those areas.

    I like to take the attitude that nothing is “known” until the jury or judge has ruled what the facts are. Until then we are working with incomplete or faulty information (but it can still be fun).

    The Kenosha officers were duty-bound to arrest Blake for his felony warrant, for felony assault on police officers, for violently resisting arrest, and for whatever other domestic crimes he committed that day. They could not let him go. My information is that the police did “mention” the knife as you say, as in the cops saying, “Drop the knife! Drop the knife!” And then there are these stills from a cell phone video:

    That looks to me like a lethal Karambit knife.

    One MSM news outlet conceded he probably had a knife in his left hand but that “he was otherwise unarmed.” Hilarious. From the same people who brought you “mostly peaceful protests.”

    I’ve also heard that once Blake got away from fighting with the officers he said he was going to get his gun (in the car). The officers were aware of Blake’s criminal history with handguns. Also, apparently TWO Taser attempts failed while he was walking to the driver’s door with a knife in his hand. So the officers tried overcoming Blake’s resistance with hands only and when that failed they tried TWO Taserings which also failed. And then, I’ve heard the vehicle may not have been owned by him and the three kids in the car may have been kids he didn’t have legal custody of. So what happens to the officers if they let Blake get in and steal the vehicle, he drives away (committing three kidnappings),  has a DUI accident or murders the children then kills himself? Finally, it is not WHERE in the body you shoot a bad guy, but WHY? There are plenty of scenarios in which shooting the bad guy in the back is completely justified. Here’s one: a SWAT sniper sneaks behind a murderer holding a hostage in front of him at gunpoint. If the SWAT officer reasonably believes the hostage-taking murderer is about to kill that hostage he’s justified to shoot him in the back of the head. So, is the officer who fired seven times (only getting five hits at arms-length distance) going to testify that he reasonably feared Blake was reaching for a handgun and that he had to fire to protect everybody on the scene? I suspect he will. That should be ruled 100% justified.

    I have one question. Many celebrities (eg. LeBron James) and many ordinary people say that black men are terrified of being shot and killed by the police. When you watch Blake’s “interaction” with the police in that video, does that look like a black man who is terrified of the police? Or does that look like a man out of his mind on rage and possibly alcohol/drugs, who is behaving violently and self destructively while putting everyone around him in danger? And to think many people are advocating for social workers to respond to incidents like this instead of armed police.

    I’m sure police around the country would be glad to hear from the public about how they can make safer arrests. How about this novelty? I’m sure it would work about as often as the Taser does.

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  • Mon, Aug 31, 2020 - 6:18pm

    #93
    agitating prop

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    agitating prop said:

    The knife could be the handle of some kind of bag he is carrying.  Look closely at the pics.

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  • Mon, Aug 31, 2020 - 7:39pm

    #94
    nordicjack

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    So what you are saying Thc

    Is that all his warrants, all his crimes, the police must use lethal force.  Because that is the punishment for the crimes.   They could and should not use this level off force.  This is why people resist.  But walking away from police is not resisting.   Further, saying " drop the knife , drop the knife" is not permission to shoot someone.  OR I could execute anyone on the street - to prove my justification in shooting someone.   So, whether they said that or anything is not relevant.  The bottom line is he was shot in the back.  Perhaps he would escape the police. But his crimes are not the type that require use of this force.  I understand if he is wanted for killing a child two hours ago.   But the problem is the level of force that is used to apprehend people for minor crimes.  That is exactly where the problem is.  You have just assumed that the police had this obligation to arrest him as you say.  NO NO NO. In fact police never ever ever go to someones home to arrest them when they have a warrant.   They wait to pick them up at some traffic infraction  or some other happenstance.   THAT in itself shows the level of culpability of these police.

    Basically this is the way it breaks down

    • good shot - ( if you are over  65 and you were raised and told cops are always right and always good people)
    • good shot - ( you are republican - all BLM and blacks resist - their fault )
    • bad shot -  ( you are democratic - cops use lethal force against blacks unnecessarily)
    • bad shot - ( you believe police want to kill black people and are racist )
    • bad shot - ( you support BLM - cops cant/shouldn't kill blacks, at any reason )

    As for me, I am neither republican, or democrat.   I do not support BLM as I am tired of the race card crap.   It shadows the bigger problem that police excessive force is a thing , and it pertains to all people.  Police corruption is a thing too.  And the system is gamed against, the poor, the disabled, and blacks more often.

    I see it more black and white.  Don't listen to police, resist arrest =  right to execution by cop - per cop mentality.  Resisting arrest is a thing - it is a charge.. it is something for a person to be tried for.  They are still entitled to their defense and day in court .  NOT POLICE EXECUTION.    The only right the police have to shoot him - is if he had used a weapon offensively against them.    Cant happen with your back turned.  it cant happen at 20 feet holding "K"NIFE"   That is defensive position.      I dont care that he was wanted for other things, I do not care he didnt want to be arrested.  Unless he took a knife and tried to use it against the cop ( not that he had one ) ,  I do not care.    What I do care about is , that they chose to execute a man ( because they did not listen to them ) by shooting him in the back 7 times.  Not 3, not 1 time.  Not something less lethal.    They wanted only to kill him not stop him not arrest him.

    I am all for some sort of law protecting both.  Something like a due process notification issued to the person with warrant.  If surrender is not made with a time period,  THEN < YOU could be apprehended and deadly force is authorized for such apprehension.

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  • Mon, Aug 31, 2020 - 8:11pm

    Quercus bicolor

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    Quercus bicolor said:

    I looked real hard at the images and I would say bag handle is a real stretch.  Knife is my working assumption.

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  • Mon, Aug 31, 2020 - 8:54pm

    stevedaly

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    Replying to “Best information” (#92)

    Whether or not he said he had a knife there had been no complete search of his car at this time.  A loaded gun under the seat was not ruled out.  Whenever a police officer would tell me to keep my hands on the steering wheels I would do it.  Better to keep the situation low key.  As far as waiting for Blake to reach inside and possibly turn around with a hand gun you don't see right away, the job doesn't pay enough for that.  Black or white, when it gets to that point it doesn't matter.

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  • Mon, Aug 31, 2020 - 9:33pm

    Grover

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    Doug, How do you know the truth?

    Doug wrote:

    Another point, as I have pointed out repeatedly in this forum, there is no organization called Antifa.  There are no incorporation papers, no command structure, no board meetings, none of the trappings of a real organization.  Antifa is an abbreviation for anti-fascist.  So, apparently anyone who shares that belief can be thought of as member in good standing.  I don't know why anyone wouldn't share that particular belief.

    Doug,

    There's a lot of legal type questions being thrown out on this thread. Is Antifa real? Are the cops justified for shooting Jacob Blake? It got me thinking. You like things that are provable in a court of law. Does that mean provable "facts" are true? If something isn't provable in a court of law ... does that mean it isn't true? What is the legal status? What is the real status?

    So, how do you know things that just don't have enough evidence to be provable in court? For instance, how do you know that I'm an artificial intelligence application written by "Evil" Adam Taggart? How do you know I'm not? What if I'm a real human who pretends to be smarter than he/she really is? Given enough time and money, I'm sure you could ascertain my status. In the meantime, how do you really know?

    It's the same for various other aspects in life. For instance, either hydroxychloroquine + azithromycin + zinc is a wonder drug for Covid-19 (if given early and/or prophylactically) or it simply isn't. Does its abilities change the moment that there is a peer reviewed scientific journal printed article? Is it the legal status that changed or is it the curative properties? What happens if the powers that have money don't want the truth to come out and simply do everything to thwart the truth? Does that mean HCQ+ doesn't work (in your mind?) Are you so sure of that conclusion that you're willing to ban me from procuring it? Essentially, that is the legal status of this wonder drug combination when State bureaucrats dictate that doctors can't prescribe it and pharmacists can't dispense it without suffering legal consequences. Hmmm. Oh, and by the way, have you ever heard of that draconian treatment for any other drug that a doctor might prescribe?

    Looking back at the words you wrote, does it really matter if Antifa is a legal entity? It sure matters in a court of law, but in the court of life, does it really matter? Do you honestly believe that since they haven't filed proper papers that they simply do not exist? If so, who is carrying out the heinous crimes carried out daily and reported on your MSM?

    I've never filed legal papers claiming the nom de plume "Grover" on this website. Does that mean that "Grover" doesn't exist here? Does that mean that I don't exist? What if nobody challenges me for that name? Does that mean that neither of the two entities exist? Can we both inhabit the same space at the same time in the legal sphere?

    Grover, (the AI experiment ... or not)

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  • Tue, Sep 01, 2020 - 1:01am

    #98

    davefairtex

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    providing representation

    Grover-

    I get the sense that Doug's role is providing public representation for a pretty interesting group of people.

    So who does he represent?  Well in the past few weeks, that's been the Podestas, and now, Antifa.

    Do you recall who else he has represented?

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  • Tue, Sep 01, 2020 - 4:36am

    Oliveoilguy

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    Judge considers looting justified by law in many cases

     

    https://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2020/09/looting_a_powerful_tool_to_bring_about_real_lasting_change_in_society_california_da_says.html

    Courts of law may not be the perfect arbiter of justice when irrationality has a seat on the bench.

    If looting is a remedy for unequal property distribution, it won’t be a remedy for long,  because it is an unsustainable enterprise. Once the stores are looted there will be no restocking of goods for the next generation of looters.

     

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  • Tue, Sep 01, 2020 - 5:53am

    tbp

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    Doug under very heavy mind-control

    Grover-

    I get the sense that Doug's role is providing public representation for a pretty interesting group of people.

    So who does he represent? Well in the past few weeks, that's been the Podestas, and now, Antifa.

    Do you recall who else he has represented?

    Obviously, the (formerly-mainstream) corporate legacy media. Even more specifically, he reads one of NYT/WaPo or watches one of CNN/MSNBC (or possibly ABC/CBS). He doesn't even suspect that everything he believes is absurd lies designed to turn him into a political weapon (that we call NPCs) against all majority groups that they can categorize and the forces of decency/morality and dignity/freedom, not to mention the pillar of the freedom underlying Western civilization (which we/he are/is programmed to hate), which is freedom of speech.

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  • Tue, Sep 01, 2020 - 7:32am

    tbp

    tbp

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    Kyle Rittenhouse is an American HERO, stands up to BLM terror

    (Natural News) Kyle Rittenhouse is an American hero. Just 17 years old, he stood his ground when viciously attacked by violent Black Lives Matter thugs who were trying to beat him to death. Using an AR-15 and his wits, he managed to shoot three of his attackers, killing two of them and saving his own life in the process. For this, he has been arrested and absurdly charged with First Degree Murder, while all the rioters, looters, arsonists and BLM thugs are of course set free and seemingly never charged with serious crimes.

    The lying left-wing media is of course distorting all the facts about this incident, leaving out details about the BLM attackers. Instead, they are pretending that Rittenhouse just spontaneously “opened fire on a crowd” without any reason whatsoever. That’s totally dishonest, malicious reporting by the treasonous left-wing media, which distorts everything and lies without remorse.

    Here are the facts about the Kenosha shooting that the lying left-wing media refuses to report:

    [...]

    Consider how insane it is now with local authorities charging him with first degree murder. Really? Premeditated murder? It’s a joke. Absurd. Officials refuse to charge rioters, arsonists, looters and homicidal maniacs with anything, but they single out this young man with an attempted murder charge for his acts of self-defense?

    This is the real injustice in our society: Innocent people get charged with crimes while the real criminals go free.

    This entire incident could have been avoided if cops had been doing their jobs in the first place. But they are ordered by Democrat mayors to back down and allow chaos to unfold. So if cops won’t do their jobs, then guess who that responsibility falls back onto? The people.

    It’s time for patriots across the country to rise up and peacefully protest in defense of Kyle Rittenhouse, a courageous young man who achieved what all the cops in the country couldn’t do: He finally engaged and killed some BLM terrorists who were engaged in acts of extreme violence.

    [read the full analysis HERE]


    ^ But these people are of course portrayed as innocent victims by the ever-increasingly-blood-filled MSM...

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  • Tue, Sep 01, 2020 - 8:59am

    nordicjack

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    GOOD Points 3:0

    tbp,   So, you have one kid with no such criminal history and 3 guys with somewhat thug backgrounds.  I am not one to say that history will dictate right and wrong.  But 3:0 is pretty overwhelming.

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  • Tue, Sep 01, 2020 - 9:08am

    nordicjack

    nordicjack

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    police open fire of bicyclist who dropped gun

    So, police spot gun on ground dropped with clothing bundle by bicyclist,  and immediately open fire//    really police?  Really?  Fatal use of force for traffic infraction

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  • Tue, Sep 01, 2020 - 10:11am

    mjtrac

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    2020

    The last time I logged in here, it was with some distress that Chris Martenson's offered approach to dealing with the pandemic was to rush out and get personal masks.  People generally interpreted what I wrote as so nihilistic that I must be suicidal; I felt it was neither nihilistic nor suicidal, but certainly filled with justifiable despair regarding the global and national situation.

    It is very disturbing to me to hear about how "the left" is out to get people.  I have a perhaps unsophisticated view of the situation in which we all find ourselves.  I think concentrations of wealth and power are problematic and tend to seek to gather ever more wealth and power to themselves.

    But where we differ from one another seems to be on where the power is.

    I think, simply, that the power is in the hands of the 0.01% who own vast amounts of our public companies, that the people in the 0.01% control politics but tend to be Republican, and that they are well aware that the way in which they have obtained their wealth and power was by theft of commons and, eventually, capture of government.

    When I look for culprits, I tend not to look for groups of people who are complaining that they are subject to police brutality, or who complain that the income of working people has not come close to keeping up with the productivity gains of the past couple of generations.  Instead, I look for those to whom all those gains have flowed, and I assume that those people have learned the standard political art of setting the people on the bottom rung of the ladder against those who would like to grab that rung.

    These culprits seem to me to be following a predictable script, one which has been presented throughout history.  For those who have climbed to the second rung from the bottom of the ladder, and who have established personal supplies of masks, I'm not at all sure what to say.  Congratulations?  Because to me it seems like the problem is larger than COVID.  Years ago, I'd thought Chris Martenson put the problem more clearly than anyone else I'd encountered, in his crash course.  Now, I just don't understand the politics of the group he's attracted.

    But I never do.  It just always seems disheartening and sad.

    In my unsophisticated view, I believe the folks on the bottom rungs of the ladder, guided by the 0.01%, put a narcissistic, racist, sexist sociopath in charge of the country, and we are now reaping what they sowed.  I can find nothing in my heart able to understand anyone who voted for that POS, and when I look for dangerous fascists, my search has landed in the Oval Office for three and a half years now.  I've lost interest in convincing anyone that this is the case, just as I don't have interest in convincing anyone that the Earth is closer to a sphere than to a pancake.  I just hope the sphere-believers win.

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  • Tue, Sep 01, 2020 - 10:39am

    Stephen Calcott

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    3

    A good belly laugh

    Surely you jest!!  MSM left wing! Hows does CNN, the NYT  and Fox  stack up against say Counterpunch, The World Socialist Website or Democracy Now.  That rabid leftist NYT's is a centrist corporate run newspaper.

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  • Tue, Sep 01, 2020 - 11:05am

    Stephen Calcott

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    4

    Some sanity

    I just joined because and I found Chris and Adam to be 2 of very smart individuals of the highest ethics and integrity.

    I was shocked to read the level of vitriol expressed by many posters on this thread. I'm sure C and A would not give succor to the rantings of these fanatics even though I think they have a capitalist orientation.

    Another Richard Wolff clip. I ask the folks to watch this clip, and then offer some feedback that use reason and logic to deconstruct his arguments.

    By the way he is a great orator with a PHD from Yale after attending Harvard and Stanford.

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  • Tue, Sep 01, 2020 - 11:35am

    Quercus bicolor

    Status: Silver Member

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    6

    look deeper

    I must say I agree with you mjtrac.  There is a fairly strong thread of support for law and order (a valid and necessary focus in the short term if we don't want to burn everything down and kill a bunch of people).  But regardless of which powerful entities are either fomenting or tacitly supporting the unrest, if we don't look deeper at the root causes, it will come back to bite us in a bigger way next time.  I also hold if we avoid the trap of  "team blue = bad implies team red = good" or vice versa we will see the big picture more clearly.  I hold that the issue of wealth inequality that Chris and Adam have been hammering is one of the major roots of this crisis.  There are others, that stem from the misguided priorities of the entire society (acquiring stuff, getting rich, perhaps to cover over a deeper fear of and discomfort with death), and the trauma we pass from generation to generation.

    I too am dismayed by the level of vitriol, lack of empathy, and jumping to conclusions based on insufficient data on this thread.  It is possible to come down firmly on the side of stopping looting and violence while looking for deeper causes.  This all didn't come from nowhere and it certainly didn't come solely because of shortcomings of the perpetrators.

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  • Tue, Sep 01, 2020 - 11:48am

    agitating prop

    agitating prop

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    Open season on blacks.

    That's very diplomatic of you, but realize you have to stand up to thugs. It's like you are saying that you have to look at the root cause of why victims feel brutalized by the mafia--when it comes to the protests.  I am speaking from the black perspective here. It's abundantly clear that since Trump with his pro "law and order" stance took office, the cops got the message. It was a terribly uneven system before, but now it's open season on them.

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  • Tue, Sep 01, 2020 - 11:50am

    Grover

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    7

    Who Does Doug Represent?

    davefairtex wrote:

    I get the sense that Doug's role is providing public representation for a pretty interesting group of people.

    So who does he represent?  Well in the past few weeks, that's been the Podestas, and now, Antifa.

    Do you recall who else he has represented?

    Dave,

    I've been trying to figure Doug's motives since he and I squabbled over Popular Mechanic's version of 9/11. If I remember correctly, Doug was convinced that their take was correct because there is no way that that group of writers could conspire to write the wrong thing. You may know that Doug is highly allergic to any and all conspiracies theories!

    Doug has different standards for establishing truthiness. If it goes along with his general thoughts and feelings (like the Popular Mechanics book,) he not only gives it a pass, he becomes a cheerleader. On the other hand, anything that disagrees with his gut needs to have strict documented coverage for him to even consider it. Even then, I doubt he would really change his mind. For instance, AE911Truth.org funded a forensic engineering study to determine if the official story on WTC 7 could explain the building's collapse. Their peer reviewed take was that the building did not come down due to fire. Will Doug bother to read the report and change his mind? I doubt it. First off, the engineering is too hard for him to understand, even though the main report really doesn't belabor the calculations. Those are placed in appendices. Doug just doesn't want to challenge the original conclusion he drew while watching MSM.

    It's uncomfortable to know that you've been lied to. After all, the wars in the sandbox have killed millions and cost us over $6 trillion so far. We went over there theoretically to avenge the destruction on 9/11. I suppose it is better to spend more resources and kill more people than to question the events of 9/11. At least then, deep state believers can pretend they're justified.

    So, who does Doug represent? I really don't know. I can pretty much count on him supporting big government regardless of the issue. That doesn't mean he represents them. I think he would be what Stalin considered a "useful idiot."

    Grover

    PS - Doug, feel free to correct me if I've mischaracterized you. I'm basing my thoughts on our interactions at PeakProsperity. Usually, when the conversation gets in the weeds and goes in a direction against your preselected conclusion, you quit responding. That saves you from having to confront yourself and change your conclusion to match reality. Based on your actions, it's really hard for me not to think you're a coward.

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  • Tue, Sep 01, 2020 - 12:16pm

    davefairtex

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    15

    this has nothing to do with

    I really don't think it is "the left" doing any of this.  The marxists are just being used as pawns.

    My evidence?  Mr Biden is getting donations from the banksters at 3:1 over the supposedly pro-corporate Bad Orange Man.  Why do we think that is?  Are they just stupid, our bankster overlords?  Or is some deeper game afoot?

    In a real marxist play, banksters would be zeroed out.  So clearly, it has nothing to do with marxism.  The banksters are the best-connected group there is.  So, watch what they do, and you will know what is really going on.

    If Team Blue really wanted the radical left option, they'd nominate Bernie Sanders.  He might even win - without cheating.  But - what passes for "the left" - call it the Corporate Left - is deathly afraid of the actually-left Senator Sanders.  The Corporate Left had to rig the 2016 primary to oust him then, and they did much the same (using different tactics) in 2020.

    No.  This "marxist" effort is all about seizing power back from the Bad Orange Man, for the corporate interests standing behind Corporate Team Blue.  No more, no less.  All these violent marxist agitators will be made to disappear the moment power is regained.  The local police will not be defunded - they'll seize the agitators, who will get the message rapidly that their time is now past.

    They are just a means towards an end, as are all these "black lives" folks.

    For the Corporate Left, black lives do not matter in the slightest, as we saw during Obama's term.  They are just pawns in this struggle, to be used and then discarded once power is achieved.

    Again, look at what the banksters are doing.  That will tell you everything you need to know.  There is nothing marxist about this attempt to seize power.  Its just one set of corporate interests looking to protect globalism, eternal war, unlimited low-wage immigration, Pharma profits, and - perhaps - vaccines for everyone (with a nod to Mr Gates) using Antifa/BLM as pawns.

    You really think a bunch of billionaires would be funding a real marxist movement that would end up chopping their heads off?

    Just my sense.

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  • Tue, Sep 01, 2020 - 12:51pm

    agitating prop

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    agitating prop said:

    Dave,

    Agree, up to a point. However, it is the current administration who stand to benefit the most from the protests and feelings of fear.  Those sitting on the fence will go full "law and order." This is no mistake. The flames are being fanned.

    Democrats did nothing for Blacks or the underclass while they were in power. Unfortunately, black or white, if you are not part of the upper 5% you won't be faring any better under Trump, post election.  That's when the gloves come off.

    Biden is the new Hillary Clinton and not to be trusted either, though he may be the least worst, in terms of domestic policy.

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  • Tue, Sep 01, 2020 - 1:01pm

    davefairtex

    Status: Member

    Joined: Sep 03 2008

    Posts: 2251

    3

    least worst

    AP-

    Unlimited immigration: corporate left

    Jobs Outsourced to China: corporate left

    Eternal War: corporate left

    Surveillance State: corporate left

    Did I miss anything?

    Oh - deliberate destruction of small business, transfer of wealth to Amazon: Corporate left.

    The one iffy issue is sickcare.  There again, Sanders and his "cheap drugs from Canada" bill was voted down by 10 corporate lefties in the Senate.  So let's put:

    Sickcare at 20% GDP: corporate left

    Note: "mainstream republicans" (corporate right) are right there alongside the corporate left on most of these items - except for maybe small business destruction.  I'm looking at you, Lindsey Graham.

    I do not think Trump is for endless war.  Nor unlimited immigration.  Nor jobs outsourced to China.

    But he is definitely for law & order.  I think you're right about that.  I'm just not sure his FBI is behind him on that one.

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  • Tue, Sep 01, 2020 - 1:01pm

    agitating prop

    agitating prop

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    2

    Speaking of 911 Truth

    The 911 Truth movement was co-opted by the same people who co-opted the original tea party movement. Somehow the truth movement became this monster, this deranged angry beast.  Some of the members became or are so unhinged they became involved with Q-anon, a feverishly retarded, cryptic mess of nonsense that openly supports the military. HTF did that happen?

    How did a profoundly anti-establishment and genuine search for truth morph into the hard right nightmare of the Trump cult?

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  • Tue, Sep 01, 2020 - 1:23pm

    mememonkey

    Status: Bronze Member

    Joined: Nov 01 2009

    Posts: 142

    11

    Appeal to Authority

    Stephan Calcott,

    “PHD from Yale after attending Harvard and Stanford.”

    Three  Strikes and You’re Out!

    Ivy League Elitist institutions have been churning out our “leaders” that are running this Shit Show.

    to Wit: GW Bush, Barack Obama, Larry Summers, John Bolton, John Kerry ...ad infinitum

    Not only have have they forfeited integrity of admissions process with their inbred political legacy admissions, they are guilty of corrupting the raw intellectual potential of our youth with their insular group think indoctrination and promotion of their Neo Liberal, Keynesian, CFR etc agendas

    While  they’ve long been a breeding ground for the Deep State nexus of  big Wall St Finance and the CIA and friends,  now with the culmination years of indoctrination of critical theory and it’s associated SJW cultural Marxist ideologies, these Elite institutions have midwifed the managerial class for the hordes of useful idiots running amok and burning our cities and attempting to enforce group think through terror and intimidation, like Maoist’s in the cultural revolution.

    But make no mistake it is the elite billionaire globalist corporatists  class that is funding and promoting this leftist array of  socialists, Marxists,  Communists and assorted revolutionary Larpers, pretenders and opportunistic criminals.  Do the math on that and draw your own conclusions.

    For every  Adam Taggert or Chris Martinson that attends an elite school but ultimately achieves escape velocity from the Borg and pursues a path of moral and intellectual integrity there are far more that fill the hallways of power and man the levers of our American Imperium.

     

    So while Richard Wolf  ideas may have merit, you do him no honor by touting his scholastic pedigree as an appeal to authority.

    Furthermore I can’t help but notice that you and other left leaning ideologues are always so shocked and offended that people on the ‘Wrong’  side of the spectrum have strong opinions and post here in this hallowed ground of intellectual inquiry.

    Your disdain and intolerance of opposing views to the orthodoxy that you subscribe to is reflective of the current zeitgeist of the left which by definition is anti intellectual.

    You will not advance your understanding of things, appreciate nuance and come closer to truths if you are not able to entertain opposing views.

    mm

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  • Tue, Sep 01, 2020 - 1:24pm

    agitating prop

    agitating prop

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    1

    agitating prop said:

    Dave, Again, I don't disagree with nearly all points you've made. Except endless war. Through data collection of Cambridge Analytica, the brains behind Trump (Steve Bannon) knew exactly how to position his message and the actions of his administration to ensure he got elected. War comes in the second act. Overt war may be limited to the domestic sphere

    I will use 'they' when referring too Trump now, as he is not acting purely on his own.

    -most people view globalism as economic, but it is also about geo-political control. It's two pronged. We have had American dominated new world order, one world government for decades.  China threatens that.

    --The American pols, right and 'left' do NOT want multi-polarity and frame it as an anti-globalist stance. They are pulling away from China, economically, as they intend to f*** them up really badly, to maintain geostrategic military advantage.

    --The U.S. can't be so reliant on China economically when they have to war against it, either through proxies or purely by driving it to its knees economically.

    ---And Iran?  Looks like everything is lining up there for full on war, which will please Israel and impact China's oil supply.

    You really have to wait until the second act of this tragic play to get a sense of where things will be going

     

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  • Tue, Sep 01, 2020 - 3:40pm

    stevedaly

    stevedaly

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    3

    Reply to MJ #104

    MJ, I respect your beliefs about the 0.1 % taking advantage of everyone else.  Thank you for that.  You also believe:

    I can find nothing in my heart able to understand anyone who voted for that POS

    Meaning Trump.  Do you think this would have been a reason for voting for him:

    America voted in a first term senator from Chicago to be president because he was the only one to vote against going to war in Iraq, a war that cost our young people of that generation so dearly, cost our treasury up to $10 trillion, and maybe a million dead Iraquis, all because of false information about weapons of mass destruction as attested to by the lies Colin Powell testified to in front of the United nations.  However instead of stopping the carnage the Obama administration with Hillary at the State Department continued to add to the the destruction of the Arab world  with the removal of Gaddafi, financing the Arab Spring civil wars, attacking Asad in Syria, allowing Erdogan to sell ISIS oil in Turkey,  with support from John McCain financing ISIS in the early years, sending $ billions of frozen funds to Iran, and targeting hundreds of Arab leaders with drone attacks.  Now along comes candidate Trump who as a Democrat and private citizen said he was also against the Iraq war and who wanted to use the economic and military power of the United States for peace and bringing jobs back to America.  In the primary Republicans didn’t decide on some theorist with a Harvard pedigree (probably a good thing).  They went for a pit bull.  You can judge for yourself whether violence has been reduced in the middle east, whether the threat to America and from North Korea is more or less, and whether Iranian adventurism is being restrained.  What do you think, MJ?  If you voted for Hilary wouldn't you  be voting for someone who supported terrible wars and destruction in the middle east costing much more in human suffering than whatever you are concerned about with the so-called 0.1%?

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  • Tue, Sep 01, 2020 - 3:55pm

    drbrucedale

    drbrucedale

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    9

    Reality Check Time for Doug

    Hey Doug:

    You say that Democrat leaders have loudly condemned the violence in our streets. Really?

    I just got through reading both Biden's acceptance speech and Harris' acceptance speech at the DNC. Neither one of them said one word condemning the violent riots. Not one word.

    Neither Biden, nor Harris or any other Democrat leader have said one word about the violent group that surrounded Senator Rand Paul after the RNC. Paul says he believes that he and his small group would have been murdered or badly hurt if the police had not been there to protect them.

    So if you have evidence to support your statement, please provide it.

    I do think that some Democrats will start decrying the violence now...after months of violence about which they said nothing at all.  They think the continuing violence is linked with the left/Democrats in the public mind and that it will lose them the election. Yes and yes.

    That's integrity and commitment to principle for you.

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  • Tue, Sep 01, 2020 - 4:02pm

    mjtrac

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    mjtrac said:

    Thanks for your question.  The answer is no.

    I can understand why someone might not want Hillary Clinton as President.  They might have a reason that I would understand but disagree with, such as objecting to her position on, say, abortion.  They might believe, as you do, that Secretary Clinton made choices in foreign policy that were disastrous.

    However, I cannot understand how anyone could vote for a multiply-bankrupt, demonstrably racist, demonstrably sexist, demonstrably deceptive real estate developer as President of the United States, or for someone who got draft deferments due to a disappearing disability as Commander in Chief of the United States Armed Forces.  Since being elected, I think Mr. trump has amply demonstrated why that seems like a bad idea to me.

    Offered a choice between Hillary Clinton and Mr. trump, I cannot find any justification whatsoever for voting for Mr. trump.  Nor can I understand how a responsible citizen could have declined to vote, on the grounds that both choices were unacceptable.

    In Chris Martenson's podcasts on COVID, he has repeatedly described the importance of using integrity as a yardstick.  I agree with him.  You, perhaps, think that the current President has more integrity than the candidate who lost to him.  I do not believe that; in fact, I do not believe there are many people of demonstrably lower integrity than the man who currently endangers the nation.

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  • Tue, Sep 01, 2020 - 4:29pm

    mememonkey

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    11

    Here's a reason!

    MJtrac,

    I can think of one reason for making that odious choice.  Hillary, a demonstrable Sociopath, (see Qaddafi death cackle video) was on record as supporting an immediate  No fly zone in Syria, Where Russia, an ally of  Assad, and legally invited into the country  already had command of the air and superior Anti Aircraft and and EW systems already in situ as a function of their effective campaign of  putting down the US, Israels, Saudi and Turkey's rabid rainbow of  Salafist head-chopper proxy armies

    Trump was against that.

    Which kind of fall under the whole preventing Nuclear War Armageddon thing!

    mm

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  • Tue, Sep 01, 2020 - 4:51pm

    mjtrac

    mjtrac

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    3

    Clinton, trump, integrity, and choices

    Well, first, I'm unfamiliar with the "Qaddafi death cackle video," but if someone was pleased by Qaddafi's death, I don't believe that indicates they are a sociopath.  Who knows, perhaps that means I'm a sociopath myself.

    You are saying, I believe, that you did not like the policies you thought Clinton had implemented and would implement, and that you did like the policies you thought the current President would implement.

    I am saying that when you establish a voluntary relationship with someone who has a known history of lying, the only thing you can know with relative certainty is that they will lie to you.  When you establish a voluntary relationship with someone who has done racist things (claim the nation's first mixed race President was not a legal citizen, refuse to apologize for an ad which called for the death penalty for some black kids who were not just not guilty of a crime they were charged with, but clearly found to be undeniably innocent of that crime), you can be certain they will be racist.  When you establish a voluntary relationship with someone who has done sexist things (yes, that will do), you can be certain they will be sexist.

    There have been many, many candidates for high public office who have pushed policies that I find repugnant.  That's not what I'm talking about with respect to the present President.  It's not a matter of any particular policy.  It's a matter of not putting the nation that, until the last election, was the leader of the "free world" into the hands of a dishonest self-centered thug.  It's a matter of responsibility and citizenship.

    I am not nearly as bothered by the current President as I am bothered by the idea that forty percent of the American electorate, having observed him for three and a half years, approve of him.  That tells me that I'm not on the same page or in the same book as many of my neighbors, and that is what I find depressing, sad, and frightening.

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  • Tue, Sep 01, 2020 - 4:54pm

    Janie-em

    Janie-em

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    Joined: Mar 05 2020

    Posts: 47

    8

    ANTIFA is certainly real for Aaron "Jay" Danielson and his family and friends.

    That is the man who was hunted down and executed Saturday night in Portland by alleged shooter Michael Reinoehl, a self described 100% Antifa and BLM member. A thug who was present at many riots, bringing a loaded gun and his 11 year old daughter, who brought a bat: https://twitter.com/MrAndyNgo/status/1300531077639892994

    For the residents, business owners and taxpayers of New York City, Seattle, Portland, Kenosha, Chicago, Oakland and L.A. the rioting by these paid and trained "protestors" is very real.

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  • Tue, Sep 01, 2020 - 6:54pm

    mememonkey

    Status: Bronze Member

    Joined: Nov 01 2009

    Posts: 142

    15

    Integrity and choices indeed

    Well, first, I'm unfamiliar with the "Qaddafi death cackle video," but if someone was pleased by Qaddafi's death, I don't believe that indicates they are a sociopath. Who knows, perhaps that means I'm a sociopath myself.

    OK here is the video for your edification.

    Qaddafi's libya was a prosperous and an advanced nation for the MENA region.   He used Libya's oil wealth for free health care for his citizens.  He lived in a tent not a palace.

    After Hillary, and company started a NATO war at Israel's behest to overthrow him and to burnish her 'leadership credentials for her anticipated presidential campaign,  his modern and prosperous country was bombed back to the stone age and turned into a shit hole failed state with mass casualties, and open slave markets!   Qaddafi was sodomized to death with a sword by 'our rebels' which was  captured live on video.

    The War on Libya – There Was No Evidence | Wrong Kind of Green

    So yeah, if your OK with that, you might just be a sociopath,  and yes, you could say I don't like her policies.

     

    You are saying, I believe, that you did not like the policies you thought Clinton had implemented and would implement, and that you did like the policies you thought the current President would implement.

    No,  I was saying that one valid reason, for making the choice for trump was to avoid Hillary's stated pro war  position that on it's face represented an extremely high risk of a kinetic confrontation with a Nuclear Armed power  with all that implies for escalation and Armageddon.   Arguably for a person that likes neither candidate,  that one issues could transcend almost all other considerations from a purely logical or pragmatic standpoint.

    I have to agree about Trumps Racism,  I  was particularly galled when he called to bring those inner city Super Predators to heel!   Oh wait,  I'm confusing my racist politicians and policies

    You take as an article of faith that Trump is racist, Certainly that's been repeated ad nausem by our mocking bird media and  you cite the Obama birther controversy among your rationals.  That was  a political controversy, not a racist one.  I used to think that that was ludicrous right wing conspiracy  as well.   However because I looked and evaluated with an open mind I eventually changed my mind.   I was convinced after looking at the independent analysis of two forensic labs that the birth certificate presented was indeed a composite forgery.  Frankly the evidence is for the certificate being fraudulent is overwhelming. Look for yourself if you dare.  But discussion of it is too far outside the Overton window of acceptable discourse.

    https://anonhq.com/obamas-birth-certificate-investigation-concludes-5-years-forensic-outcome-certificate-fake/

    And finally for what it's worth,  I wouldn't hang your hat on Hillary as some sort of truth teller.  That is risible. Your description of putting a dishonest self-centered thug as a "leader of the free world" applies as much or more to HC as Trump.

    Also for what it's worth,  the whole " leader of the free world" thing is past it's pull date. It functions as a reflexive if delusional sop to our collective exceptionalism.  Maybe once,  but lately we're a Bankrupt Bully who tramples on International law and sows death and destruction  at the behest of our corrupt elites and Israeli handlers.

     

    mm

     

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  • Tue, Sep 01, 2020 - 7:37pm

    Grover

    Grover

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    Joined: Feb 15 2011

    Posts: 795

    7

    Smells Like Hyperbole

    agitating.prop wrote:

    The 911 Truth movement was co-opted by the same people who co-opted the original tea party movement. Somehow the truth movement became this monster, this deranged angry beast.  Some of the members became or are so unhinged they became involved with Q-anon, a feverishly retarded, cryptic mess of nonsense that openly supports the military. HTF did that happen?

    agitating.prop,

    I really don't know what you are talking about. As a professional engineer, I signed the AE911Truth.org petition to reinvestigate the events of 9/11. Why? Because the buildings could not have collapsed the way the official report suggests. Does that mean that I'm part and parcel of the co-opting you wrote about? Perhaps you think that I just got fooled. Could it be that you painted the group with a brush that is a wee bit too broad? There may be factions involved as you describe. Can you name any large group anywhere that only has people who have totally pure hearts? Does that mean that they are co-opted (and total crap as you implied) as well in your book?

    Also, can you provide any documentation that supports your charge? Make sure that the bad people you cite are actually in the organization decision structure; otherwise, they could just be plants sent in by someone who wants to discredit the movement. Oh, and please list the organizations who specifically have been co-opted so I can avoid those like Covid-19. Believe it or not, there are people who think the whole truck load of apples needs to be tossed just because of a few bad ones. Do you know any?

    In my book, the events surrounding 9/11 should be reinvestigated. Charges of treason should be levied against GWBush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, and others in the Bush II Administration. If they are found guilty, they should be ceremoniously hung by the neck until dead. It isn't until justice is felt by all that justice prevails. Will it ever happen? I seriously doubt it. There are too many in powerful positions who don't want any kerfuffle that might upset their premium position on the apple cart.

    Those powerful people may have a political party preference, but they are far too pragmatic to let that get in the way of gaining more power. They'll attempt to buy candidates from both sides. Why? So they can get political favors in return regardless of which political team wins. "Hey, include this loophole in legislation you are about to introduce ... better yet, I know you're busy. I wrote the legislation you should introduce (if you want my support during the next election.)" Have you wondered who benefits and who pays the cost? Look at the top of the apple cart for who benefits and look in the mirror for who pays the cost.

    you also wrote:

    How did a profoundly anti-establishment and genuine search for truth morph into the hard right nightmare of the Trump cult?

    Did you really mean the "genuine search for truth" portion, or was that just a canard? I'm really not sure what to make of the question you wrote. Does that mean that all "truthers" are now in the Trump cult? Also, I wouldn't say the truth seeking groups were profoundly anti-establishment. Basically, AE911Truth.org is trying to use established systems to get the events reinvestigated. They are just trying to raise awareness so people will actually vote accordingly. How is that profoundly anti-establishment?

    Grover

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  • Tue, Sep 01, 2020 - 7:53pm

    Jim H

    Status: Bronze Member

    Joined: Jun 08 2009

    Posts: 1219

    17

    It all goes back to the question; What is true?

    Hello, It's me, one of the moronic deplorables.  If you call me names for taking the side that I do, it's OK... I don't mind.  I have seen many calls to emotion here.. suggesting that I and others are sullying the high integrity of this website... but what really is this website?  It's a place to explore what is true, that's what it is.  I have been here since before it was peak prosperity, if anyone remembers that far back.  Chris was one of the few who correctly called the GFC and the resulting stock market crash.. that caught my attention.  I woke up to the 9/11 false flag through this community.  I owe a lot to this community and I have made some real blood brothers and sisters through it.

    There are many good hearted, idealist people who see the world differently than I do... and that is because they cannot grasp the degree to which the mass media is captured by, and acts as a mouthpiece of, the Globalist cabal.  I know, I know.. just by saying that your warning bells are going off in your head, "CONSPIRACY THEORIST, CONSPIRACY THEORIST".  That is your training kicking in... it's Okay.

    We are in a war right now.  Prior to Trump the deep state had captured most politicians on both sides, through compromat, through bribery, through tapping their communications, etc.  I have put enormous effort into a thread with over 500 posts called, "hydroxychloroquine vs. the Deep State" in order to give folks a guided tour of the deep state in action, in real time.  Is this the work of a moron?

    I think where people fail to comprehend is in their ability to use different sources, and in fact different kinds of data, to develop a picture or pattern.  For instance, when you hear about something happening that has never happened before, your should ears should perk up.  Before 9/11, no modern steel framed building had ever collapsed due to fire... on 9/11 three buildings did, one of which was not hit by a plane or too much else for that matter.  During the Covid-19 Pandemic, for the first time ever, Doctors have been impeded from prescribing a safe, well understood drug for off label use.  See how this works?

    As George Soros has said, this election will determine the future of the world.  Will the world go the way of Europe and continue moving toward one singular monetary system, technocratic (non-representative) rule, and the final removal of our gun rights?  Or will a functioning majority of Americans wake up to what is true and re-elect an outsider who has stated in their faces, at Davos, that America will not bow to socialism?  What will it be?

    What is most ironic is that underneath it all, my heart is right with most of the posters here, even those on the so-called left side of the fence.  I voted for Obama in 2008.  I was always proud to work for IBM since it started hiring black people into important positions long before other US corporations.  I hate racism and subscribe to MLK's vision.

    Like Herschel Walker, I reject as complete fabrication the very idea that Trump is racist.  It doesn't matter how many newcasters, celebrities,  and writers you think you trust say it, it's still a lie.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iXyohn9hDh0

     

     

     

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  • Tue, Sep 01, 2020 - 8:14pm

    Grover

    Grover

    Status: Gold Member

    Joined: Feb 15 2011

    Posts: 795

    13

    Don't Forget The Gold Dinar

    https://millenium-state.com/blog/2019/05/03/the-dinar-gold-the-real-reason-for-gaddafis-murder/

    The gold dinar: a groundbreaking initiative

    In 2009, Colonel Gaddafi, then President of the African Union, suggested to the States of the African continent to switch to a new currency, independent of the American dollar: the gold dinar.

    The objective of this new currency was to divert oil revenues towards state-controlled funds rather than American banks. In other words, to stop using the dollar for oil transactions. Countries such as Nigeria, Tunisia, Egypt and Angola were ready to change their currencies. Unfortunately in March 2011, the NATO-led coalition began a military intervention in Libya in the name of freedom….

    Free water, almost free gasoline, free health system and free education were commonplace for Libyans under Gaddafi’s dictatorship.

    The leader, who has been in power for 41 years, has managed to gain the support of all the major tribes and buy social peace through radical measures and a policy of shared oil revenues.

    Jihadism, the number one enemy of the West, Gaddafi eliminated it with Napalm in the 1990s. Although he financed many armed groups in the Sahel, Libya itself was a stable country where the risk of being kidnapped or even murdered by an armed militia was non-existent.

    With an excellent management of oil revenues, the Libyan state had managed to store hundreds of tons of gold (143 tons according to WikiLeaks) and the same amount in silver. All these resources were going to make Libya the most influential country in Africa, supplanting France for example.

    Gaddafi wanted to avoid American influence in his oil transactions by using this gold. He launched the gold dinar project, and other major African governments were ready to support him in this project. It was both an African dream and a nightmare for the West’s financial system.

    The end of the African dream

    This information was discovered through Hillary Clinton’s electronic mailbox. One of the 3000 emails showed NATO’s willingness to overthrow Gaddafi’s government. NATO mainly wanted to to neutralize the African gold currency supported by Libyan oil reserves.

    At the beginning of March, the Libyan army and the many militias loyal to the government had already crushed the rebellion, thanks to their numbers and equipment. However, with Western intervention, the dream of a unified monetary system based on gold and independent of the dollar perished…


    I wonder what happened to all of Gaddafi's gold? Who would have benefited by having him removed from power? Answer: Anyone benefiting from the worldwide fiat currency system.

    Grover

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  • Tue, Sep 01, 2020 - 8:29pm

    Jim H

    Status: Bronze Member

    Joined: Jun 08 2009

    Posts: 1219

    6

    Those pictures and that same story would have applied to Syria had HC been elected in 2016

    Syria was to be the next Libya, no doubt.  We discussed it here leading up to the 2016 election.

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  • Tue, Sep 01, 2020 - 9:53pm

    ao

    ao

    Status: Platinum Member

    Joined: Feb 04 2009

    Posts: 1389

    8

    talk about a good belly laugh

    So let me get this straight.  You think Counterpunch, The World Socialist Website or Democracy Now are mainstream media?

    Also, you accused some here of being fanatics.  Would you care to point out exactly who here you consider to be a fanatic and what are the specific criteria you use to label them as such?

    As far as Wolff being a great orator, that would have to be in the ear of the beholder.  Perhaps your standards are more relaxed than mine but I remain singularly unimpressed.  Also, my impression is that he talks a lot (and likes to hear himself talk as many professorial types do) but actually says very little, especially when it comes to providing practical, real world solutions to problems.  And then he made a statement that really woke me up from his soporific droning when he said, at 40:35, that Trump controls the media.  That statement alone is truly delusional and flies in the face of all reality.  Could you please tell me what media Trump controls?

    Wolff is known as a Marxian economist.  Here's Wikipedia's take on the subject.

    "Marxian economics, or the Marxian school of economics, is a heterodox school of economic thought. Its foundations can be traced back to the critique of classical political economy in the research by Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels. Marxian economics comprises several different theories and includes multiple schools of thought, which are sometimes opposed to each other, and in many cases Marxian analysis is used to complement or supplement other economic approaches.[1] Because one does not necessarily have to be politically Marxist to be economically Marxian, the two adjectives coexist in usage rather than being synonymous. They share a semantic field while also allowing connotative and denotative differences."

    Quite frankly, the above strikes me as Orwellian newspeak liberally mixed with bovine excrement.  But to cut to the chase, can you name me a country that has used his brand of Marxian economics and actually achieved economic and political success by doing so?

    Now George Carlin, there was a great orator who had something to say about bovine excrement.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QkVe7arGLW0

     

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  • Tue, Sep 01, 2020 - 10:20pm

    davefairtex

    Status: Member

    Joined: Sep 03 2008

    Posts: 2251

    9

    the record, vs the second act

    AP-

    Glad we have agreement on most things.  I think that - honestly - most of America would agree on all this stuff if they stopped watching media.  Most of America doesn't want endless war, or their jobs outsourced, or a flood of immigrants coming in to debase their wages.  Not if they thought about it for more than a minute.  I mean - most of America isn't stupid, right?  Sickcare at 20% - they probably don't want that either.

    Ok, about Endless War.  We have a record established right now.  Trump has not gone to war at all - dodging this bullet under great pressure from both corporate left AND right - during his first term.

    His opportunities: Iran (they shot down our drone!), and Syria.  He tried pulling troops out of Syria, and there was huge opposition from both sides.  Likewise, the push for war against Iran was massive.  He fired Bolton too, which nets him points.  (Hiring him in the first place?  A blunder, certainly - a point for your side.  But he did learn from his mistake.)  There is also huge opposition to him declaring peace in Afghanistan and then leaving.

    These are real actions he has taken in his first term.

    Place this against the corporate left - the Obama/HRC group - who, if they came into power under a nominal Biden administration, would go right back to the Obama-era "destroy a few more middle eastern nations" policy.

    I'll take the actual record: "he didn't start any new wars, while under great pressure to do so", versus some sort of vague charge: "maybe the big scary thing will happen in term 2."

    And reshoring jobs, and stopping a wave of cheap immigrant labor are things he has actually done.

    Who knows about sickcare, and he's terrible on the deficit - as is everyone else.

    But no more war?  He's got a track record now.  Same statements as Obama before getting into power, but very different results.  At great political cost to himself, too.

    Remember when corporate media was oh so complimentary when he fired missiles at Syria?  "Presidential", it called him.  That was a signal that I'm sure he didn't miss.

    As for China threatening something - I could go on for quite a while about what China (or rather, the CCP) threatens.  If given a choice to live under a US world order, or a CCP-dominated world order, I'd take the US any day of the week.

    Happy to go down that road with you if you like.  We can start with Xinjiang.

    In short, when you say:

    You really have to wait until the second act of this tragic play to get a sense of where things will be going

    I'll take Trump's demonstrated anti-war record over Biden bringing along the entire corporate Obama/HRC team back into power - which will have predictable results.  Clapper, Brennan, Comey, will all return.  If you liked FISA before, you'll really like FISA II.

    War in Iran will become certainty, not possibility.  A surge in Afghanistan, a surge in Syria - that's what we'll get with the Obama/HRC team under a nominal Biden presidency.  That's their record.  Its the team I object to, not Biden himself.  The team's record is that of total warmongering.

    Biden isn't strong enough to resist any of it.  Even if he were mentally competent, which he's not.

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  • Tue, Sep 01, 2020 - 10:25pm

    Sparky1

    Sparky1

    Status: Bronze Member

    Joined: Jul 21 2016

    Posts: 753

    5

    Disgusted

    QB said,

    I too am dismayed by the level of vitriol, lack of empathy, and jumping to conclusions based on insufficient data on this thread.

    I am beyond dismayed to the point of disgust at the comments and personal attacks I've read here. Unfortunately, this is becoming the norm on PP and I expect that it will only continue to get worse as we get closer to US elections. Thereafter, I expect an even greater shit show, regardless of the election outcome.

    PP members who express opinions or present evidence that runs counter to those of the self-proclaimed "independent thinkers'" and "truth seekers'" (who obviously have ample time and motivation to engage in lengthy diatribes) are castigated as "brainwashed", under "MSM mind-control", acting as stealthy "representatives" of some nefarious counter offensive, and/or "cowards". On another thread, it was suggested that one of the more vocal "disagreeable" (with the prevailing narrative) members might just be running cover and/or otherwise complicit in an alleged child trafficking/sexual abuse ring.

    Good thing that the PP posting guidelines and rules proport to "...create a safe and welcoming place" for civil discussion! And I'm super-glad that the site administrators have a long-standing policy concerning ad hominem attacks and "Off-Limit Topics", including

    • Politics (from a partisan standpoint or otherwise seen as pushing an agenda)

    These topics are not allowed, and any threads or posts containing them will be promptly removed.  We wish it could be otherwise, but our hard-earned experience is that these topics are not worth the trouble."

    It is painfully obvious that the PP posting guidelines and rules are selectively administered to favor an inner circle of members espousing an "acceptable", prevailing narrative. So much for promoting "independent" thinking and civil, respectful discourse and appreciative inquiry based on data-informed facts and evidence....

    PP is fast becoming a cultish echo chamber "tribe" of "like-minded" "truth warriors" that is unwelcoming and at times openly hostile towards others expressing alternative views or evidence.

    IMO based on my own experience and on PP personal messages and forum postings, those dissenting current and past PP members who limit or no longer engage with the rest of the PP tribe are not defeated "cowards".  They've simply concluded that such engagement is no longer productive, no longer "worth the trouble" or expense of time, effort and money.

    When assessing the often recommended "take the best and leave the rest" approach to PP, there's a point when "the best" is eclipsed by a very discouraging, all encompassing "the rest". I'm amazed that Doug, QB and a few others persevering stalwarts have apparently not yet reached that point. I am saddened, but not surprised that so many others with "minority" views who used to participate regularly in PP discussions now do so rarely or not at all (assuming they are still around).

    So yeah, "it didn't have to be this way" but in the final analysis, "it is what it is"--right?

    *****

    (Side note:  tbp & Co., Congrats on your exquisite timing and targeted efforts for a job well done!  PP is well on its way to becoming Peak Natural News. Of course, this change was not solely the result of your very sophisticated and persistent shilling, but you certainly display great skill in profiling and ingratiating yourself with key PP senior members, mastering the "right" themes and language to trigger hot buttons designed to foment conflict and catalyze further the transformation and decline of PP.)

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  • Tue, Sep 01, 2020 - 10:56pm

    mememonkey

    Status: Bronze Member

    Joined: Nov 01 2009

    Posts: 142

    10

    Pot kettle

    Sparky,

    Your attempts at hall monitoring and censorship through safe space shaming would be more effective if you could resist the hypocritical urge to call out and attack posters who's views you think are beyond the pale.  Sort of defeats your tolerance argument.

    mm

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  • Tue, Sep 01, 2020 - 11:52pm

    davefairtex

    Status: Member

    Joined: Sep 03 2008

    Posts: 2251

    11

    but for the media

    Sparky-

    I think, but for the media, whose assigned task is to divide America, the level of vitriol in the country (which is reflected here at this site) would be orders of magnitude lower than it is right now.

    The reason that the media is assigned to divide America, is to protect the ruling class.  And that's Bezos on one side, and Koch on the other, with Gates looking on from afar.  I'm sure that group gets together for lunch and has a good laugh.

    https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/magazines/panache/bill-gates-bakes-warren-buffett-a-birthday-cake-sara-blakely-thanks-berkshire-billionaire-for-the-laughs-and-wisdom/articleshow/77851598.cms

    The current social  unrest probably - at its core - results from resentment at the vast divide between rich and poor.  [Sickcare: 20% of GDP.  Jobs outsourced.  Wave of immigrants debasing wages further.  Etc].  Corporate media redirects this latent anger into "systemic racism!" so we don't accidentally blame Bezos, or Koch, or Gates.  Or the Fed, or the banksters, or the corporate left or right.

    We are all victims of this, to a greater or lesser extent, because we are either angered by the horror of "systemic racism!" or by the organized violence coming from Antifa/BLM.  [Clearly - I'm on the "annoyed at organized violence from Antifa/BLM" side.  I'm not immune either.]

    All set up by corporate media, whose appointed task it is to divide us, either through action, or reaction.

    Are we divided yet?  What grade would you give them?

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  • Wed, Sep 02, 2020 - 4:04am

    Rector

    Status: Bronze Member

    Joined: Feb 07 2010

    Posts: 385

    13

    My favorite word - vitriol

    To the whiners:

    In the event that the data is too definitive or the argument too compelling - be sure to clutch your pearls and express "shock" at the "vitriol" expressed by "insiders" etc.  Please stop trying to elevate yourself above the various posters here (who actually have a well formed opinion).  The pretension that you are somehow intellectually superior and won't lower yourself to base arguments and "conspiracy" theories is evidence of your failure.  It's a lively and compelling discussion where people disagree about the content of arguments, exchange sharp words regarding the manner in which the argument is presented, and call out agendas and bias.  In other words - an adult conversation in which people try to get to the truth and bullshit is rigorously attacked.  Some possible solutions for your cognitive dissonance:  change your mind, learn something new, reconsider your beliefs, agree to disagree, ignore.  Grow up.

    Rector

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  • Wed, Sep 02, 2020 - 4:28am

    Sparky1

    Sparky1

    Status: Bronze Member

    Joined: Jul 21 2016

    Posts: 753

    6

    A higher standard

    Mememonkey,

    How predictable. You failed to address the issues I raised and instead responded with your dismissive and inaccurate characterization of my concerns as attempts at "hall monitoring", "censorship" and "safe space shaming". Although ineffective, I commend you for your use of stock trigger language, though.

    Note that I followed but did not engage in the discussion or arguments set forth in this lengthy thread. IMO, people can believe what they want and respectfully express their PoV and present their rationale and evidence regardless of which side(s) of the arguments they land; then agree, or agree to disagree and move on.

    Not so in this (and other) discussion(s). There were several instances in which opposing views and lack of agreement was met with derision and ad hominem attacks, for all appearances based largely along political lines in a highly charged political discussion.

    As it seems that the PP moderator appears to be MIA during this thread, I posted and quoted directly from the PP guidelines and rules. To be clear:  I'm not trying to impose any "safe space" designation to this site or discussions--it already exists, at least in policy per the PP principals.  Perhaps I erred in not posting additional clarifying content from the "guidelines". Here it is:

    Through this website, we also seek to create a safe and welcoming place for people to discuss the implications of the “Three Es” in an intelligent and enlightened way.

    Together, we will continue to hold this site to a higher standard than is usually found elsewhere on the Internet.  We will be civil with each other, respectful, thoughtful, and considerate.

    Anything that causes people to feel unwelcome or unsafe will be discouraged or removed, as will things that serve to detract from our high standard of intelligent discourse. Our mission is to engage, not to repel.

    Additionally, there were multiple, blatant ad hominem personal attacks (and a few possibly "bloviating" posts) on this thread that the PP principals may have considered   ripe for editing or removal if they were in fact aware of them.

    Regarding "Off Limit Topics", here is the more detailed excerpt from the "guidelines":

    Regretfully, through much trial and even more error, we’ve determined that there are several topics that seem to escape the ability of otherwise careful and considerate people to discuss pleasantly in an online forum:

    • ...Politics (from a partisan standpoint or otherwise seen as pushing an agenda)

    These topics are not allowed, and any threads or posts containing them will be promptly removed.  We wish it could be otherwise, but our hard-earned experience is that these topics are not worth the trouble.

    As a community, we've come up against this issue numerous times. It might be helpful during this very contentious US election year for Adam and Chris to revisit this guideline and provide further clarification for what they deem as acceptable vs. unacceptable content and discussions in the realm of political figures, formal and informal entities, and platforms. Relative to the current thread, it appears that this discussion is politically partisan in nature and polarizing and therefore contrary to PP guidelines and rules.

    Ironically, I think a very vocal majority here are not open to self-reflection of the type that calls into question detrimental aspects of PP tribal culture. (No doubt that there's some sociological or Myers-Briggs insights that could be gleaned here....)

    MM, I found your comment below to StephanC. to be even more ironic:

    I can’t help but notice that you and other left leaning ideologues are always so shocked and offended that people on the ‘Wrong’  side of the spectrum have strong opinions and post here in this hallowed ground of intellectual inquiry.

    Your disdain and intolerance of opposing views to the orthodoxy that you subscribe to is reflective of the current zeitgeist of the left which by definition is anti intellectual.

    You will not advance your understanding of things, appreciate nuance and come closer to truths if you are not able to entertain opposing views.

    So disagreement with the prevailing (vocal) PoV of the PP community is akin to sullying this "...hallowed ground of intellectual inquiry" and to be "anti-intellectual"? You are clearly not alone in your PoV in this regard, but can you see that this is a belief system and not an argument?

    Regarding "Triggered Beliefs", again, quoting from the "guidelines":

    A common pitfall we observe is that a triggered reader will insist that others not only respect — but share — their belief, and if that fails, will often demonize those holding a different perspective. Beliefs are subjective, and highly personal. You are absolutely entitled to hold whatever beliefs you want, but you are not permitted here to project them onto others.

    I've voiced my concerns enough regarding these issues to obviously no productive purpose. In the future, if I have a concern worth noting I'll send a PM alert to Adam and he'll address it as he and/or Chris see fit. Truly, not my problem (although it is distressing to witness, so I'll try caring less).

    Lastly, to address my comment regarding tbp & Co.:

    On numerous occasions tbp has posted full-length, very biased and often inflammatory articles (as is the norm) from NaturalNews.com. Among his many (370 ytd) posts since joining in April 2020, IMO tbp's posts are among the most contentious and divisive and often pull from the most shrill content from NaturalNews. To what purpose? I've observed tbp very skillfully and quickly align himself by addressing directly views and issues that clearly resonate with key well-respected senior members of PP, many of whom are fully engaged in this particular thread.

    So yes, I  guess you could say I "called out" tbp for shilling for Natural News, whether or not in a formal or informal capacity. I don't come to this conclusion--my opinion--lightly, and only after months of observation. I disagree that I "attacked" him. But I did complement him for his skill and effectiveness in accomplishing his craft--unfortunately, much to the detriment of PP and the online community, IMO.

    Consider that it is not just those within the corporate/MSM that stand to gain from a divided America. There are those capitalizing on or within the "alt-media" sphere to do their part in the effort as well.

    I've stated my concerns on all of the above. Whether any one cares or acts upon them remains to be seen.

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  • Wed, Sep 02, 2020 - 5:14am

    VTGothic

    VTGothic

    Status: Silver Member

    Joined: Jan 05 2020

    Posts: 333

    12

    Adult conversation

    It's a lively and compelling discussion where people disagree about the content of arguments, exchange sharp words regarding the manner in which the argument is presented, and call out agendas and bias.

    @Rector: I was just thinking along the same lines this morning as I caught up on this thread.

    I value across-the-divide(s) conversations. I particularly like discovering common ground, rather than highlighting and headlining differences. Identified common ground is where local people can build toward a reinvigorated cultural worldview, identify shared concerns, and strategize more comprehensive solutions. IE, build functioning community. Since I believe that the cure for what ails us as a country (perhaps world) can only begin at the local level and percolate up, it seems to me that's the necessary place to start, and the most important level of emphasis.

    In the long run, what I most care about is that my local physical community be able to work together in times of crisis, regardless of social, economic, and political differences. That happens when we see each other as human beings, each of us sometimes quirky, all of us prone to our individual and shared frailties.

    It requires assuming that those who disagree with me are as intelligent as I, and are ethical, well-meaning persons genuinely concerned about the state of affairs under discussion. That assumption permits a conversation rather than confrontation. But it's an assumption too easily forgotten in overly-heated conversation, and such over-heating is much easier when we don't speak face-to-face, like here. Anonymity too often doesn't bring out the best.

    I abandoned Facebook conversation when the Covid camps appeared to devolve into versions of either "we're all gonna die and it's your fault for refusing to wear a mask anytime you step out the door" or "anyone who wears a mask, ever, is a mindless slave of the oligarchy." In my opinion, that's the platform where the real vitriol exists. (I don't even bother with Twitter.) I have two professional pages and one group page to administrate there, and they are the only reasons I log on any longer.

    FB interactions also tend to be short on evidence and sourcing. PP participants are much better at both providing supporting sources and asking for supports from each other. I really like that, it helps ground claims and arguments; it also makes it possible for those of different perception to challenge perceptions based on evidences rather than perceived personality, which helps keep conversation here civil, I think, even when parties strongly disagree.

    On PP I mostly see genuine engagement. I'd hate to see that die off because party A doesn't appreciate being challenged by party B. I prefer to hope party B would use the opportunity to both review assumptions by checking her/his data and/or refine, nuance, and strengthen his/her argument. Reconsidering and refining one's actual beliefs help us each update our beliefs and clarify the ground we stand on, and can lead to finding common ground, which leads to both better mutual understanding and shared solutions to pressing issues. It's not about winning the argument, it's about finding provisional truth - which, because provisional, can and should move as new evidence is found, vetted, and incorporated by each of us, talking to one another.

    It's also okay to apologize when we discover we've misread or misunderstood someone, or have unintentionally offended them, or have made a broad assumption because something said smacks us as fitting a pre-defined pattern. We all make patterns for data. We just need to remember that humans (and most situations) are considerably more complex than the over-simplified memes of contemporary public discourse present.

    It's in exploring the complexity of people and ideas that we find individuality and shared interests and agendas, along with the opportunity to incorporate new, vetted information approaching from some different vector. I'm all for that. It seems to me that this community is too, in the main. It's partly why I keep coming back.

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  • Wed, Sep 02, 2020 - 5:55am

    Penguin Will

    Penguin Will

    Status: Member

    Joined: Aug 20 2019

    Posts: 65

    8

    Penguin Will said:

    When we go off the rails in this joint, we REALLY go off the rails.

    Although the motives are good, I will have to make a little addendum to the title of this post: Fear of social unrest is not everywhere, it just seems that way because the little nooks and crannies like the one I inhabit aren't really taken notice of. There's a lot of them but they are only thought of as those pretty parts of the country you have to drive through on your way to some place important. We like it that way. 🙂

    The odds of any kind of social unrest in my neck of the woods is about the same as a Doomsday asteroid strike or a First Contact type event complete with little green aliens. But that's probably not the case for a lot of us. So on a serious note, stay safe and stay engaged.

    Will

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  • Wed, Sep 02, 2020 - 6:56am

    Doug

    Doug

    Status: Platinum Member

    Joined: Oct 01 2008

    Posts: 1474

    0

    Will

    Even in the supposed hotspots things aren't all that hot:

    https://www.cnn.com/2020/09/01/politics/fact-check-portland-ablaze-trump-fire-department/index.html?utm_term=15990420557254f37d1f770f1&utm_source=Five+Things+for+Wednesday%2C+September+2%2C+2020&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=240517_1599042055726&bt_ee=CoL3zN%2BJAFAZI%2FBdmDj%2FCIsVmQyY9ZPTRH6Zzvtp6E3j7UvaejhwnvajkttKUZlN&bt_ts=1599042055726

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  • Wed, Sep 02, 2020 - 7:08am

    Quercus bicolor

    Status: Silver Member

    Joined: Mar 19 2008

    Posts: 445

    8

    Overall this has been a very helpful conversation

    My understanding of the nuance and complexity involved has grown tremendously.  My perspective has evolved. My ability to understand and empathize with different points of view has evolved.  My understanding of the general mood of the nation has evolved by seeing where y'all stand (and I know the posters in this thread are by no means representative of the nation).  This is a true asset as pointed out by VTGothic in post 134:

    In the long run, what I most care about is that my local physical community be able to work together in times of crisis, regardless of social, economic, and political differences. That happens when we see each other as human beings, each of us sometimes quirky, all of us prone to our individual and shared frailties.

    Along this line, I am also in conversation with people I live near on both sides of the political divide.

    Earlier in the conversation, I saw people focusing on the law-and-order aspect of the riots (and yes there are still real protesters out there, but there is and has been a lot of rioting) without looking deeper.  There were numerous long-time members respected by me who in my judgement were involved in this.  I don't mean to call out davefairtex individually, but he is one I remember  Recently, commenters, including Dave have gotten into how the rioters are being used and the underlying societal issues (wealth inequality being #1) behind them.  People have even discussed how the issue might be more or at least as much about the plight of the poor of all races than one of racism.  I tried in posts 50 and 107 to steer the conversation in this direction.

    Another point: we were talking about the Dems tacit support of the violence and why.  See, for example, posts 70, 72, 73 and 81.  But every explanation presented suggests the goal of those fomenting/supporting the violence was done to help get Biden into office. But we also agree that the violence is more likely to work in Trump's favor than Biden's.  There's a contradiction in that.  Can we revisit this and try to come up with a working theory that matches all of the data and likely impacts?

    Finally, I'll have to agree with sparky near the end of posts 129 and 133 about tbp.  See tbp's post 101.  The article he quotes in it's entirety goes way out on a limb given what is known so far about the shooting and then rants from an extreme right point of view about what it all means. I am calling out one particular post here.  If there are other similar posts I haven't mentioned, I don't mean anything personal, I just don't have time to reread the entire thread.  The same applies to any other posts or persons I have specifically mentioned.

    All in all, I think it is helpful to understand that overall, this group, as best I can tell (and correct me if I'm wrong) leans towards male, older, wealthier than average.  I think we need to understand this in following the conversation. And I know that can be alienating to those who don't fit that mold and who have different political views

    Overall, I think we have done an excellent job of keeping things civil and productive, especially compared to other online venues.  And of course, we could benefit more by having respectful conversations that involve a broader demographic (not that there are some representatives of other groups involved right now).  The diversity of viewpoints in such a conversation would serve us all if each of us could approach the conversation openly and holding our own opinions and beliefs as lightly as we can.  Even those who were less willing to look at data or let their perspective evolve would teach us something about where we are as a nation.

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  • Wed, Sep 02, 2020 - 7:32am

    Doug

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    drbrucedale

    Start around 5:00

    Dr Bruce, I can only assume you are not an MD, or you would be able to find this info on your own.  Or, at least learn how to use the google machine.

    Doug

     

     

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  • Wed, Sep 02, 2020 - 8:36am

    Jim H

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    12

    The Truth about Portland

    I live 20 miles, as the crow flies, from Portland.  I was an East coaster like Doug for most of my adult life and then moved here two years ago for a job.

    Portland may not be literally on fire every night... but we do have to face the truth that Portland is getting destroyed.  The really insidious thing that is going on there, which many who don't dig beneath the MSN surface layer may not recognize, is that the recently elected DA is prosecuting almost none of the rioters.  Because of this, and because of the other constraints put on police by mayor Ted Wheeler and other city authorities, the local police have pulled back, leaving lawless zones in the city.  It's really a shame.

    If anyone wants to see the reality of the "peaceful protests" in Portland, and elsewhere, I highly recommend the Twitter feed of independent journalist Andy Ngo;

    https://twitter.com/MrAndyNgo

    Another enlightening perspective on Portland comes from evolutionary biologist Bret Weinstein, and his partner Heather Heying (also a professor of biology) who live there.  They are both brilliant and interesting to listen to.  Bret is an activist for good of the first order and he has started a movement called Unity 2020 that is very interesting in concept - it's not a third party but instead a "party" that creates what in corporate speak we would call a, "two in a box" form of leadership, spanning both existing parties.  Interestingly, within the last few days they chose their front runners;  Tulsi Gabbard and Dan Crenshaw.  I posted many times during the primary season pointing out how the deep state immune system was rejecting Tulsi Gabbard, likely because of her sincerity and incorruptibility.  Hillary Clinton labelled her a likely Russian agent.  I appreciate Bret's effort and maybe something like this could work once we get deep state and their mass media enablers exposed, unseated, and replaced with honest journalists who seek truth, just like we try to here.

    My point is that Bret and Heather spoke recently on their podcast lamenting the state of Portland and the fecklessness of it's mayor.  Bret and Heather are liberal leaning and hence shouldn't offend anyone.  At one point Heather laments the condition of Portland, stopping herself from calling it a war zone, she says it looks like a, "former City".  The clip is only 10 minutes.  It is truly sad...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wt1GxrrO8Kk

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  • Wed, Sep 02, 2020 - 8:42am

    Quercus bicolor

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    You are correct Doug, but ...

    He did condemn violence on all sides.  I noticed these things though:

    1. He condemned the rioting last after he condemned the police and the armed right wingers.
    2. He named a solution for the armed right wingers (Trump should dissuade them from carrying weapons into the riot zones).
    3. He did not name a solution for the rioting (My take: Democratic mayors and governors that have taken a soft approach and refused federal help should be more aggressive and accepting of help.  Once peace is restored, start a conversation about the root problems.  Policing issues are perhaps a small part of it, but the conversation really needs to hone in on wealth inequality and societal decay).

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  • Wed, Sep 02, 2020 - 9:10am

    rdkeene

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    1

    Not Marxists

    Thank you.  I get so tired of the constant refrain of Marxists, antifa and Democrats being the end all perpetrators of all that is wrong.  For what it’s worth I find those types of remarks, lazy, kool aide driven and just the opposite.  I do think it is time for a taxpayer revolt to defund Washington DC especially now!

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  • Wed, Sep 02, 2020 - 9:21am

    Doug

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    Thank you

    You are right, he is even handed in his criticism.  Is that a bad thing?

    "...but the conversation really needs to hone in on wealth inequality and societal decay."

    I agree we need to have that conversation, but I think the violence needs to stop before we can rationally solve those problems.

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  • Wed, Sep 02, 2020 - 9:30am

    drbrucedale

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    Nice try, Doug, but no seegar

    In my post I said that neither Harris nor Biden condemned riots during the DNC. They did not. If you have evidence otherwise, please put it forward.

    I also said that the Democrats would likely change their approach now that polls are showing how deeply Americans dislike the riots and violence.

    Specifically I said this: "I do think that some Democrats will start decrying the violence now...after months of violence about which they said nothing at all."

    Well, that is what happened.  The clip you posted of Biden is two days old. I would honor and respect Biden if he had taken this stand during or before the DNC.

    But he did not. He did it after the polls show how negatively we view the riots.

    https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2020/08/31/riots-violence-erupting-turning-many-away-blm-and-protests-column/5675343002/

    https://www.wsj.com/articles/biden-awakens-to-the-threat-of-urban-riots-11598894969

    So, there you have Joe Biden: no integrity, no principles, just a grasp for power no matter what.  (He is now busy walking back the party's platform on fracking. Should be fun to watch. :))

    BTW, my doctorate is in chemical engineering. I have over 300 scientific publications in scientific journals. And, yes, I do know how to use Google, my memory is good and my BS detector is pretty good also. But you can try again if you want. 🙂

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  • Wed, Sep 02, 2020 - 9:46am

    Doug

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    Oh, puhleeze

    My comment was that Biden and Harris had condemned violence.  You apparently listened to only their DNC speeches before making your condescending comment, and failed to listen to their numerous other public speaking engagements.  What, do only their DNC speeches count?

    This is silly.  Let's move on.

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  • Wed, Sep 02, 2020 - 10:03am

    Jim H

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    Doug, please support your position with facts...

    My view at this point based on commentators I follow is that what Dr. Bruce is saying is correct;  Biden and Harris did not start calling out the violence until very recently as a result of the growing awareness that support for said riots (explicit or implicit) is a losing political strategy.  Please give us links to quotes or video of Biden/Harris opposing the violence and destructiveness of the protests prior to a few days ago.  Thank you, Jim

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  • Wed, Sep 02, 2020 - 10:05am

    mjtrac

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    Reply to Dr. Bruce Dale

    From 8/13: https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/factcheck/2020/08/13/fact-check-democrats-have-condemned-violence-linked-protests/3317862001/  This took less than 15 seconds to find.

    On May 31, the fifth night of demonstrations, former Vice President Joe Biden, the party’s presumptive nominee, wrote in a statement that protesting police brutality is “right and necessary” and the “American response."

    “But burning down communities and needless destruction is not,” Biden wrote. “Violence that endangers lives is not. Violence that guts and shutters businesses that serve the community is not.”

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  • Wed, Sep 02, 2020 - 10:07am

    mememonkey

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    mememonkey said:

    “My comment was that Biden and Harris had condemned violence.  You apparently listened to only their DNC speeches, and failed to listen to their numerous other public speaking engagements.  What, do only their DNC speeches count?”

     

    It matters for the exact reason Dr Bruce Dale elucidated in his response to you.

    The timing of this strategic shift in messaging speaks directly to their credibility and integrity.

    “This is silly.  Let's move on.”

    Classic  Doug!

    Insult a poster with an erroneous statement -Ignore the counter argument and declare victory in the face of being proven wrong with facts.

    Grover’s description of your ‘debate’ tactics was quite apt.

    By all means please share some of their “numerous other speaking engagements” where they condemned the rioting prior to their poll driven messaging shift that started several days ago after months of destruction.

    mm

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  • Wed, Sep 02, 2020 - 10:18am

    drbrucedale

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    Doug, yes, I can understand why you want to move on.

    Doug:

    I do understand why you want to move on.  The facts aren't in your favor.

    Here are the facts. Trump specifically condemned the rioting and violence during the Republican Convention, and it was a major theme of the RNC. Neither Biden nor Harris said anything about it during the Democrat Convention nor did any of the speakers.

    'Silence equals assent...particularly after months of riots and violence. I don't believe Biden is sincere now about the violence. Here is a good list of reasons why.

    Here’s How We Know Biden Isn’t Sincere About ‘Condemning’ Violence

    Bruce

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  • Wed, Sep 02, 2020 - 10:20am

    davefairtex

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    14

    so what's the play here?

    It is quite clear, as QB said, Team Blue mayors and governors have pulled their police forces back from arresting the violent anarchists, and if the police go rogue and arrest some of the anarchists, they are immediately set free again.

    Its a Faustian bargain.  Clearly it is aimed at Trump, and the election.  Otherwise, it just makes no sense.  [Mayors of these cities are sane, but this is an insane act.]  QB asks - what are they thinking?  Why would they do this?  What is the "winning strategy " here?

    How about this: this is a "bait Trump-the-Nazi" strategy.

    Team Blue (Obama's IC gang, and their friends) are trying to bait Trump-the-Nazi into sending in the army and shooting people.  Trump Tweet: "when the looting starts, the shooting starts."  Then when the troops appear, and people get killed, they can call Trump a Nazi and a fascist, they get footage to run for the election.  And I suspect, if Trump didn't have good advisors, he'd have done this by now.

    They started small - with statues.  "Trump will shoot people to defend the confederate statues, proving he's a racist."  Didn't happen.  "Trump will defend George Washington's Statue" proving he's a racist?  Didn't happen.  "Trump will defend Abraham Lincoln's Statue" - proving...uh...that things just get carried away, and there are only so many statues to destroy...and so Trump finally signed an executive order which put a 10 year jail term on people if they destroy statues.  No more statue destruction.  No footage.  No anarchist wanted to spend 10  years in prison for a statue.  Phase 1 failed.

    Phase 2 - rioting and looting, while CNN talked every day about "mostly peaceful protests."  Seize a section of a friendly city.  Declare a new nation.  This had a high chance of success - there were armed secessionists in there - I am certain Trump wanted to send in the Army.  Succession!  He was actually legally justified to do so.  Fortunately, he had good advisors, to whom he listened.

    Instead, he has taken the approach: "Team Blue - you get to wear this suit you have constructed for yourself", while he limits himself to protecting Federal buildings, slicing things very fine.  A bunch of anarchists were arrested when they tried to burn the building down [with Federal workers inside] - likely this was demoralizing to the anarchists, because these are Federal charges.  There are probably not very many actual anarchists, so when some of them are taken off the board, its a big loss.

    Trump's approach was the long game, and it now appears as though it has been successful, but it was not clear in real time just how well it would play out.  I suspect this response surprised and disappointed Obama's IC gang.  After all, Trump is a Nazi and a Fascist, and sending in the Army is what those types of people do.

    In the meantime, it will suck to be living in a Team Blue city, a victim of feckless leadership who instead of looking after their people's livelihoods and neighborhoods and safety, were playing electoral politics in some grand game of Obama's IC gang's devising.  Which failed.

    Now if Trump wins, Team Blue cities are really in a pickle.  Unintended consequences are that people are fleeing these areas (wouldn't you?) starting with the richest taxpayers, leaving only the poor who are stuck to deal with the destruction, complete with demoralized police forces, who have been told they are scumbags and traitors and need to be defunded.  That's sure to help public safety and quality of life.

    [Same thing with extended lockdowns in New York City.  It will destroy the city; this is already happening now.  They wanted to bait Trump-the-Nazi into taking action there too, but once again he is letting them wear the suit they themselves created.  If they don't get to write the history, this could totally destroy this group of people, once word gets out.  They are really pretty far out on a limb.]

    So what will Obama's IC gang do now?

    Now that the polling is going against them, and they don't have the bodies or the footage they wanted, - an admission of defeat is pretty much all that's left.  Basement Biden has just done this - emerging from his bunker long enough to (ever so reluctantly) wave the white flag, then scuttle back inside once more, taking no questions from reporters.

    What's next?

    I have no idea.

    But I don't see them waving the white flag on the overall attempt.  There's a ticking clock.  Perhaps - Crossfire Hurricane prosecutions are on the way, and the only way for this group to remain free is a Biden Presidency.  [Is Clinesmith making a deal with Huber?  He might just be doing so.]  This group appears to be quite willing to throw entire American cities under the bus to achieve their objectives.

    But - really - what could possibly be next?

    I have no idea.

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  • Wed, Sep 02, 2020 - 10:24am

    2retired

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    2retired said:

    A bit of lighter hearted interpretation; Ex-Mayor Ford of Toronto was widely supported (said some) because he offended 'intellectuals of the chattering class' who many felt needed to be offended. A Canadian version of 'draining the swamp'.

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  • Wed, Sep 02, 2020 - 10:40am

    Doug

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    Mayor Ford

    Ah, Mayor Ford.  Always good for a laugh.  Despite video evidence he denied smoking crack for some time, until he finally fessed up to doing so "probably in one of my drunken stupors.". Whatta guy. 😂

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  • Wed, Sep 02, 2020 - 10:47am

    davefairtex

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    and the reward for a job well done

    Oh and I forgot one thing.  Why would the mayors of these cities throw their people under the bus?

    Well now.  What would a Biden Presidency have to offer to a bunch of local politicians who have shown they can follow "difficult" orders?

    Well there's the Cabinet of course.  And Ambassador slots - lots of those.  How would you like to be Ambassador to Germany?  Or Japan?  Or HHS secretary?  Or maybe an appointment to the Federal Bench somewhere?  What would you like?

    A new Administration has lots of rewards to give out for good soldiers that follow orders.

    From Mayor to Cabinet Secretary, for 3 months of "work."  All you have to do is let your city be destroyed.

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  • Wed, Sep 02, 2020 - 11:21am

    westcoastjan

    westcoastjan

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    A personal perspective

    Observing the conversation in this, and other threads, from the sidelines for awhile now, I see evidence that the discord destroying our collective societies appears to be seeping into conversations here as well. Despite perceived vitriol, lack of respect, or perceived biases, PP is, IMHO, one of the best sites on the web for fomenting civilized conversation. I think it is inevitable, given the current state of world affairs, but especially in the hugely volatile USA, in an election year, that emotions will run high [perhaps an understatement], adding more than the normal amount of colour to discussions.

    To add to that, debating serious, contentious issues via the written word is so…inadequate. Tone and inflection are absent, meanings, sarcasm and provocation are all too easily misinterpreted or misunderstood, acting as triggers to derail conversations. Further, there are varying levels of debating skills, with some who are what we might call top tier in their skill set, possibly intimidating those with lesser skills, effectively dissuading them lending their voices. It is a shame because it is in a diversity of voices, giving representation to the massively eclectic group we call humanity, where the real learning occurs.

    It struck me how extremely privileged we who engage on this site all are. That we have such tremendous literacy skills; that so many are extremely well read, educated, intelligent and articulate, able to express views on a myriad of topics, some quite esoteric in nature. That, in the midst of a global pandemic, widespread economic devastation, incredible inequality, poverty, homelessness and social unrest, eco-devastation, floods, forest fires, droughts, and other natural disasters, we have the luxury of time and place to think & ponder; to compose thoughtful, lengthy comments and responses, to search for videos and data to support our comments, to debate and argue. To do this with comfortable roofs overhead, well fed, with full and easy access to the simple things that we all too often take for granted – a toilet, shower, washer, well stocked fridge and cupboards. And further, to spend significant time here at PP in between gardening, harvesting & processing, along with, for many of us, the means and wherewithal to build deep pantry’s and other stores of supplies for the necessities of life that we think [hope] will get us through what everyone here seems to agree is coming at us hard and fast.

    Silence is also a privilege. To not contribute, to not give us the benefit of your unique perspectives and experiences; to help us understand things from your side of the fence, wherever that may be. I have mentioned the following quote many times here at PP, “all it takes for evil to flourish is for good men to do nothing.” I would add that it is also to say nothing.

    And yes, I agree, some commentators at PP appear to be nothing more than agent provocateurs. They are everywhere on the internet. As with evil, they flourish when no one says or does anything to stop them. If we choose not to call them out as instigators, then we reap the discord and confusion they sow.

    I am not sure how to end this comment. I’m not even sure why I wrote it… perhaps it was just a desire to say that perhaps we need to give our heads a shake and to have a bit more humility. Given the privileged lives we enjoy, we are highly likely in the top 10% in the world. Surely, we can do much better to honour those who do not hold our privileged stations in life by being better leaders and role models in our efforts to cultivate a world truly worth inheriting.

    Jan

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  • Wed, Sep 02, 2020 - 11:37am

    MarkM

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    Sounds about right.

    Okay for thee, but not for me.

    Portland mayor is moving when the action gets a little too close to home.

    https://www.oregonlive.com/portland/2020/09/portland-mayor-says-hell-move-after-protest-outside-his-condo-building-draws-arrests-widespread-calls-for-change.html

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  • Wed, Sep 02, 2020 - 12:01pm

    Farknight

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    Farknight said:

    The majority of BLM protestors are peaceful and have legitimate grievances.  These are largely driven by the Federal Reserve's actions to save the rich and elites and leave crumbs for everyone else.  To say otherwise is to be naive and blind.

    That said, there is a sub-set of anarchists (not communists) and plain thugs and criminals (looters) who are attracted to the chaos and exploit it for their own personal or social goals.  It is these people we see burning stores, looting mattresses, and shooting rightwing counter-protestors.  Of course, rightwing counter-protestors also shoot back given the guns everywhere.

    The result looks like a civil war but most Americans are too busy working and earning a living to pay much attention despite the left and right media's crazy minute by minute reports.

    I hope law and order are restored, bad cops are drawn out into the light and prosecuted and they are joined by the looters and anarchists in jail. Then the legitimate protests under the First Amendment can continue and everyone else can continue our lives.

    Also, as an attorney I would caution would-be militia vigilantes or gunslingers that you better be prepared for any wrongful wounding or death lawsuits should you shoot or maim an innocent party.  It would be a great way to never retire ever in peace given the liens you will face if you get a judgment against you.

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  • Wed, Sep 02, 2020 - 12:07pm

    Mommer

    Mommer

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    10

    PP Discussions becoming less valuable to me.

    One of the things that has made PP especially worth the subscription to me has been the expectation that religious and political discussions will be absent. While we all have  beliefs about those issues, this was to be a place to focus on other issues.

    If I want to read vitriolic comments laced with derision, I can find that on social media or almost anywhere else. The tribe concept is apparently easier in theory than practice. And things haven't even gotten Peak Bad yet.

    When we refuse to keep an open mind or show respect to those with whom we disagree, we have become part of the problem and not part of the solution.

    I come here less and less because of these dynamics on the discussion boards. I agree that most of us have so many advantages yet we are sinking to the lowest common denominator rather than using them to move forward in ways that are practical and positive. Is there a solution? Were the guidelines relaxed or changed?

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  • Wed, Sep 02, 2020 - 1:22pm

    Thors Hammer

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    La Violencia

    I served as a Peace Corps volunteer in Colombia in the early 1980's.  At that time the country had just emerged from a 20 year period of violent confrontation know as the Violencia.  One of my long lived memories is of riding two days on horseback into the mountains and stopping to talk with a barefoot farmer hoeing  his beans.  Not far into the conversation he asked:  "Who really killed Kennedy?"  Not really a surprising thought from an illiterate farmer living in a remote homestead.  Like the USA, Colombia had it's progressive young leader assassinated during a campaign for the Presidency. As a matter of fact the president of a Co-op I worked with was standing alongside him on the podium at the time.

    All this preceded the Colombia of Pablo Escobar fighting to be Kingpin of  drug exports to the USA  and CIA funding right wing death squads fighting for control of their share of the proceeds.

    The Colombia I knew was a neo-feudal society with a veneer of a two party political system and democracy overlaid on it.  The serfs who worked the land were total political slaves to the Owners.  Unlike the US, Colombia required that every citizen vote, so the Overlords would round up all their serfs and take them to the polls for every election.   The flaw in this system was that all the government ministries and the spoils of "democracy" transferred with electoral victory so there was a strong incentive to prevent the Overlords of the opposing political party from bringing their serfs to the polls.  Led and mobilized by their Overlords, this eventually led to the continual massacres and slaughter that took 20 million lives over the decades of Violencia.  So far in the US we just use  redistricting, blacklining, Diebold voting machines, mail fraud, and hanging chads instead of mass murder.

    The political solution that eventually emerged and brought an end to the Violencia, and allowed Colombia to progress toward it's current second world status  was simple.  By law every four years the political leadership transferred between the Liberales and Conservadores,  but all the bureaucrats held their former posts.

    As the USA moves in the direction of collapse and open armed conflict perhaps we should take a lesson from our southern neighbors and just trade Figureheads every four years. In reality there is only one consensus party in the US-- call it the War Party,  the UniParty or the 1% Party.  The system of hugely expensive circuses to maintain divisive confusion among the rabble who even bother to vote has worked stunningly well for decades, but it has finally reached the point where it lacks any credibility.  How can an intelligent being have any reaction but disgust or anger when his Malignant Overlords serve up a Leader who wakes up every morning and looks in the mirror to determine the Truth for the Day, and the other Team can't find in their entire organization a Figurehead who isn't certifiably brain dead?

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  • Wed, Sep 02, 2020 - 2:53pm

    mjtrac

    mjtrac

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    Replying to Thors Hammer

    Yes, this is the story I've been hearing now for some time.  I have a different take, and I will try to share it briefly here as concisely as I can.

    We live in a social structure under which moving forward requires the three branches of government to agree or be willing to cooperate and compromise.  When the branches are held by opposing groups, progress can still take place, but it requires leadership capable of generating and supporting compromise.

    Under divided government, a politician seeking goal set A will not get it without compromise.  Now, it is in human nature to try to shift blame to others. Those who support A but kibbitz from the sidelines, such as myself, are free to complain about the compromise, and ignore any progress towards A that the elected politician or politicians may have made, on the grounds that it is insufficient.  We will be praised for doing so, face no electoral cost to ourselves (having no position to lose, or to fail to reach), and may accumulate substantial groups of "turned off" followers, who are pleased at the eloquence with which we defend our pure version of A.

    These "turned-off" follower groups have the perverse effect of shifting the political dynamic in the direction of not-A, making it necessary for those elected officials who favor A to make further compromises.

    Eventually, when the compromises required to "play" on the new game board reach a threshold, those who favor A abandon their elected officials, declaring there is no difference between them and the other side.

    I'm pretty certain that I'm not alone in seeing this dynamic at play; in fact, in my own personal conspiracy theory, I believe the supporters of not-A have actively encouraged it.  Thus, the first success towards (for example) the principle that all Americans are entitled to health care becomes, due to the necessary compromises, a handout to the power players who are guaranteed to have their snouts at the trough, and the politicians who invested substantial political capital in this improvement in the design of our society are called sellouts rather than successes.  This works to the benefit of those supporting not-A, at no effort or expense on their part.

    Those who fall for this are, in my opinion, worthy of the term which "Thors Hammer" feels free to bestow on someone who has put in political effort for half a century.  Yet they'll call themselves "woke."  At least that adds a bit of comedy to our collective tragedy.

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  • Thu, Sep 03, 2020 - 12:01pm

    ao

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    the NY Times is centrist? plus, the atrocities of communism

    Uh, nope.  Here's a little bit of history for you:

    "The New York Times supported Stalin and communism as the way to the future"

    The NY Times Supported Stalin & Communism As the Way to the Future

    Except it was the way to the grave for the millions starved to death by Stalin in Ukraine during the Holodomor.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor

    And for the millions and millions of others who died at the hands of the communists both in the gulags and out dating from the Communist revolutions through the period between WW1 and WW2, during WW2 (including the Katyn Forest massacre), and after WW2 (including the civilian ethnic German holocaust which exceeded even the Jewish holocaust in numbers killed).

    And lest you think that those millions "only" died from executions, starvation, exposure, overwork, and war, you may want to familiarize yourself with some of the more brutal accounts, if you can stomach them.  For example, the Soviet communists who confronted non-communist Christians in some of the eastern European countries brutally gang raped the women in front of their men and their children.  Any man who objected or attempted to intervene was instantaneously shot, a fate actually preferable to what was to follow.  Women had their breasts sliced off, metal rods inserted up their vaginas and puncturing their viscera and pushing out through their abdomens, and then were crucified by being nailed to barn doors.

    Or how about the doctor who had done nothing wrong and had, in fact, done all he could to help people but happened to be the wrong ethnicity and religion.  He was brutally beaten, had all his major joints dislocated, had his long bones all broken, then had his four limbs amputated, and then was put in a pen with hogs to be eaten alive.

    So pardon me when I am alarmed at the hate demonstrated by such political candidates as Pam Keith suggesting an "open season" on killing political opponents and rags like the NY Times saying nothing in opposition.

    https://www.lawenforcementtoday.com/florida-democrat-suggests-its-open-season-on-killing-republicans/

    Such statements seem insane but we've seen this type of insanity in the past and there's nothing to say it won't be repeated in the future.

     

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  • Fri, Sep 04, 2020 - 6:46am

    tbp

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    The primary underlying difference between the two camps

    The primary underlying difference between the two camps is MSM-believers vs. those who look at sources beyond that utterly criminal (and now very terroristic) formerly-mainstream corporate media -- sources censored by the former to the maximum degree they're able to. Every month that passes, the difference between the soul-crushed mind-controlled NPC army of the MSM becomes visibly and audibly greater and greater.

    That is the information war being waged.

    For those of you who fall into the 1st camp (and I couldn't stress enough how unbelievably clueless you have foolishly allowed yourself to become), watch this video that the MSM would never, ever, ever, show you, of Orange Man Bad's own words:

    ^ Yes, that's what he ACTUALLY says, vs. what they tell you he says and does (i.e. the false narrative that has you believing the most absurd lies such as the idea that he's clearly a racist, sexist, a Russian agent, blah blah blah)... while they hide Biden's senility and child predator proclivities (and credible rape accusations etc):

    @Sparky1
    (Side note: tbp & Co., Congrats on your exquisite timing and targeted efforts for a job well done! PP is well on its way to becoming Peak Natural News. Of course, this change was not solely the result of your very sophisticated and persistent shilling, but you certainly display great skill in profiling and ingratiating yourself with key PP senior members, mastering the "right" themes and language to trigger hot buttons designed to foment conflict and catalyze further the transformation and decline of PP.)

    What a joke. We deal with facts, figures, ample sources of information, truth, discussion, debate, dialogue, ... You deal with false narratives, identical "Woke" PC thought (that's why the label NPC is so accurate and appropriate), making you virtue-signalling safe-space-seeking riots-and-looting-supporting Overton-window-reducing victimhood-mentality-imbued weaklings calling for censorship of opposing views... all of it coming from A SINGLE SOURCE (although presented as many sources):

    We want you to WAKE UP and see on whose side you really belong. You are not our natural enemies. Those whom you are ALLOWING to control your mind, beliefs, actions, ultimately life itself, are. The only reason you think we are your enemy and not the TV, is because you have been extremely uncareful in choosing who it is you allow to influence you with (dis)information and narratives built on such.

    Hell, I'm not even a right-winger (as you no doubt assume I am), I'm a volutaryist/libertarian/[classical-]liberal. Also a non-dualist, but I recognize the 3rd density dramas for the entertaining and necessary show that they are. This is about evil vs. good, immorality vs. decency, terrorist lies-based narratives vs. truth, censorship vs. free speech (primary pillar of Western civilization), mind-control vs. thinking for oneself, neomarxist indoctrination vs. diversity of thought, officialdom vs. "conspiracy theories", enslavement agendas vs. freedom, transhumanism vs. ascension, NAA vs. GSF beings.

    We've reached Peak Corruption, but many haven't noticed yet because a primary goal of corruption is hiding itself.

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  • Fri, Sep 04, 2020 - 7:08am

    mjtrac

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    I hope Chris reads #160, because this is what he's attracted

    This is what Peak Prosperity became.  What a shame.

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  • Fri, Sep 04, 2020 - 8:11am

    tbp

    tbp

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    Let's turn PP into CNN!

    ^ Nice arguments bro. What are you trying to say, that Chris has attracted "conspiracy theorists" with his conspiracy theorizing such as claiming that HCQ is being suppressed and that the virus most likely came from a lab?

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  • Fri, Sep 04, 2020 - 8:42am

    mjtrac

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    mjtrac said:

    No.  My arguments are offered at #104, #118, and #120.  I have no explanation of why Peak Prosperity ended up attracting conspiracy theorists, but can only point out that among those who understand that our society is failing, many will seek to generate or believe explanations that are not backed by facts.  I don't know if it's a form of self-soothing, or what, but it is a highly destructive phenomenon.

    I will add this: although I admire Chris Martenson's reporting on the pandemic, it would have given him more credibility with me if he had gone back and corrected misinformation he has spread (the Italian rheumatologists' survey, for example).  I do understand that he has limited time and that his listeners will have limited attention.  He is at his best, I think, when he is pointing out shoddy science, but he puts himself in an awkward position when he himself does not correct misinformation he has spread, while accusing respected people of, well, I'm not sure what, exactly.  But I don't think Dr. Fauci, for example, is a sellout to big pharma.

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  • Fri, Sep 04, 2020 - 8:45am

    Jim H

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    Decorum in a time of universal deceipt. mjtrac

    mjtrac,  It's been made perfectly clear by yourself and others that you don't like this content.  While I don't necessarily agree with tbp on all issues, topics, or data, I do agree with him that we live in a sea of propaganda and that the mainstream media lies incessantly.  To me the ethos of this site is crowd sourcing the truth, whether the topic is the environment, the money system, etc.  tbp, myself, and many others here see what amounts to an existential threat to our ability to operate as free humans in the current political environment.  My posts may not wake you up, but they very well may help wake somebody else up.

    The answer to your question to Chris is already under your nose if you choose to acknowledge it - do me a favor please and go back to post 132 from one of our senior members.  Read it.  Then scan the identities of those who gave it a thumbs up check mark.

    Now curb your emotions and respond to the underlying issues rather than making emotional appeals requesting censorship.  Please.

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  • Fri, Sep 04, 2020 - 8:50am

    mjtrac

    mjtrac

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    crowd sourcing the truth

    I don't believe you can crowd source truth, or vote on it.

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  • Fri, Sep 04, 2020 - 9:15am

    Jim H

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    Thank you for answering me mjtrac... now we are having a conversation!

    Hopefully you did look at #132 so we can stop the appeals to Chris to censor content.

    I was just thinking last about how the debunking of the faked Lancet HCQ study, something I lived through and participated in in real time, was a stellar example of how the light of truth can be shone through the networked efforts of many smart, passionate, truth seeking individuals.  Did you follow this at all mjtrac?

    I will give you a capsule summary from my perspective - as you may know I have been deeply interested, as a practicing chemist, in the potential of various therapeutics against Covid-19.  So have various MD's and ND's who post here like Sandpuppy, as well as PhD Chemical Engineer Bruce Dale.  Along with Chris and others here.. I can't name them all but Island girl comes to mind.. we have some real cumulative technical chops on board.

    So here appeared the Lancet study which purported to extract data from an immense database of over 90K hospital patients, and pulled a propensity-matched subset of about 10K of these in for statistical analysis.  The main conclusion of the study was that those patients receiving hydroxychloroquine had a 10% chance of dying from cardio complications - terrible if true.  As you may remember, within 2 days of publication, the WHO used this paper as predicate to suspend ALL HCQ trials under its control, effectively knee capping them all.

    At the same time, within just a few days, questions were being asked all over the twitter verse and interwebs.  Dr Roult in France was looking at the data and saying it was impossibly homogeneous - and he was also saying that after treating almost 4000 patients in hospital with hydroxychoroquine, NONE had died from cardio complications.  Other medical researchers on twitter started to point out that the huge database purportedly collected by a shady company called Surgisphere would have been literally impossible to assemble because of the complications involved in getting individual hospitals to share closely guarded patient data - the implication was that this data, which purported to represent nearly every patient treated with HCQ in hospitals WW, was faked.  Some hospital systems, including a large one in Australia, started to point out that they had in fact NOT shared data in this way.  Surgisphere had to start changing their story almost immediately.

    I even participated in a small way in this debunking - I watched the few youtube videos that were available at the time meant as Surgisphere PR - their lead S. Desai was mouthing platitudes about using ML (machine learning) and AI (artificial intelligence) to tease meaning out of large databases... and indeed this is what these technologies do... but Desai also suggested through a graphic representation that he was using the AI to literally fill in gaps in the patient data.  You can't use AI to fill in gaps in patient data.. that is complete BS, and I called it out.  To me, Desai was essentially admitting that they made up data, though not on the scale that was ultimately proven to be the case.

    In the end, the paper was proven to be a complete fake, and it was retracted.  The mainstream media did not do this mj.... we did.. people just like us.  People with different backgrounds and different types of expertise worked together, sharing their views, to reach the truth:  This paper was a lie.

    Doesn't this make you mad?  Doesn't this make you want to fight against the powers that brought this lie to life?  Do you think this was just an accident?  A coincidence?

     

     

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  • Fri, Sep 04, 2020 - 9:39am

    mjtrac

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    mjtrac said:

    I'm afraid I did not find #132 very convincing, sorry.  I don't own pearls, for starters.

    But I think the work done by you and others to debunk shoddy science was excellent, and I thank you for it.  I'm not sure how anyone can jump from that to accusations against Dr. Fauci, or assertions like this one in #160, which was the message to which I replied: "...while they hide Biden's senility and child predator proclivities (and credible rape accusations etc)..."

    It is completely possible that some complaints are real while others are the product of an overactive imagination, and treating them all in the same way seems to me to delegitimize the legitimate complaints.  But that's just me.

     

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  • Fri, Sep 04, 2020 - 9:48am

    Jim H

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    Regarding Fauci

    mjtrac said,

     But I don't think Dr. Fauci, for example, is a sellout to big pharma.

    mj,  I don't think anyone who has been engaged technically in the developments relating to therapeutics would agree with you on this.. in fact calling him a sell out to big pharma is the most mild of criticism one could level against him.

    Remdesivir, which Fauci called a, "game changer" is mildly effective.  HCQ given early as a cocktail is much, much more effective since it stops the disease early in the vast majority of patients such that they never need to be hospitalized.   Did you know that the intended endpoints for the Remdesivir study were changed midstream because it had become clear that no statistically significant mortality benefit could be proven?  The only thing that could be proven was that Remdesivir had the potential to shorten hospital stays.  Weak.

    To those of us who have been following the technical details, Fauci is a demon of the first order. To those who consume only mass media, he is still our beloved health advisor.  This is the contrast to which tbp, myself, and others want to bring attention to.  We are not going to stop doing so regardless of your protestations.

    https://www.healthnewsreview.org/2020/04/what-the-public-didnt-hear-about-the-nih-remdesivir-trial/

    Finally, though, many on social media – but noticeably few in mainstream news media – have pointed to the fact that primary endpoints or outcomes were shifted by the researchers in the NIH trial just within the past two weeks. Fauci didn’t acknowledge that in his upbeat pronouncement at the White House. He said that the study’s primary endpoint was time to recovery. Yes, that has been the primary endpoint for the last two weeks. But not before that.The trial started February 21.

    Zelenko knows....

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  • Fri, Sep 04, 2020 - 9:58am

    mjtrac

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    mjtrac said:

    Would you care to reply to the accusation in #160 that Vice President Biden is a child predator, or has such tendencies?  Or the assertions that what we hear in the press about the current President are false?

    As for Fauci, it will take a lot of evidence to convince me that he is, in your word, a demon.  His reputation from AIDS gives him, in my opinion, a lot to stand upon, and it doesn't make logical sense to me that an elder statesman of science as well as bureaucratic politics would somehow endanger lives in order to add to profits of some companies.

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  • Fri, Sep 04, 2020 - 10:24am

    tbp

    tbp

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    Simple questions for mjtrac

    Fauci knew chloroquine was effective against SARS-CoV-1. Now he denies any use for HCQ. That by itself means he's a sellout to Big Pharma (actually not a sellout, he IS big pharma and has been for a very long time). Can you counter this argument, mjtrac?

    Do you honestly believe Biden isn't senile, isn't experiencing dementia, mjtrac?

    Do you honestly not see anything strange or problematic in how he touches children? Did you watch the video?

     

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  • Fri, Sep 04, 2020 - 10:35am

    davefairtex

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    Defund Fauci

    mjtrac-

    Here's an article on Fauci funding the Wuhan lab research that - more likely than not - resulted in this virus.  We don't hear much about this, do we?

    https://www.newsweek.com/dr-fauci-backed-controversial-wuhan-lab-millions-us-dollars-risky-coronavirus-research-1500741

    And another article - pre COVID - that talks about Fauci tanking a generic drug that would have saved thousands of lives had NIH approved it - or even conducted a study on it.  This, back in 1987, when he was the "elder statesman" of the AIDS crisis.  Note that the on-patent drug AZT was definitely the preferred treatment approach.

    https://www.huffpost.com/entry/whitewashing-aids-history_b_4762295

    I say we defund Fauci and his entire organization.  We'd have fewer deaths, and better treatments.  Unless you can tell me what the official "blessed" treatment is for non-hospitalized outpatients here in the US?  [In other nations: HCQ+AZI+zinc, or Ivermectin - both of which are proven to be effective]

    Turns out, if a treatment that works is available (such as either HCQ+AZI, or Ivermectin), then a vaccine - which Fauci is extremely enthusiastic about, and wants literally everyone to be vaccinated, even though we can never reach "vaccinated herd immunity" because fat people and old people (more than 50% of the population) do not respond well to vaccines, and this vaccine (he tells us) won't actually prevent infection, it will simply reduce symptoms, cannot be made mandatory.

    But vaccinated we must be.  All of us.  Because no treatment is available.

    Except of course in reality, there are two treatments, and they work really well.  Did he fund a rapid trial on these treatments?  Just like back in the AIDS days - the answer of course is "no".

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  • Fri, Sep 04, 2020 - 10:54am

    stevedaly

    stevedaly

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    Sea of Propaganda

    we live in a sea of propaganda

    How can it be that the media continually fabricates stories or invents a new twist to slander their opponents?

    Karl Rove used to send out talking points every morning to his media outlets.  Why? Because if you listened to one source and were skeptical and checked another source, they would agree making it more believable.  Both sides have talking points now.  Why does the mainstream push outlandish stories now? Because it takes months to cleanse or wash out a person's existing natural biases.  And they think its working.

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  • Fri, Sep 04, 2020 - 11:01am

    mememonkey

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    Blinded by Science

    Shedding Light on the Dishonorable Record of Dr. Fauci – A Real Mengele

    Mjtrac

    "His reputation from AIDS gives him, in my opinion, a lot to stand upon, and it doesn't make logical sense to me that an elder statesman of science as well as bureaucratic politics would somehow endanger lives in order to add to profits of some companies."

    Here is a excerpt of an alternate take on his Aids record from an article by William Engdahl that paints a compelling  picture of  Fauci of institutionalized regulatory capture and science,  corrupted and blinded by conflict of interest spanning his entire career that did indeed have life endangering consequences, your faith in DC elder statesman scientist bureaucrats  not withstanding.

    Really?  you think that Big Pharma and the politicians they own have our best interests at heart and not their bottom line?

    mm

    By F. William Engdahl
    https://fort-russ.com/amp/2020/04/shedding-light-on-the-dishonorable-record-of-dr-fauci-a-real-mengele/

    America’s AIDS Czar

    Tony Fauci has held the top post at the NIAID in Washington for an astonishing 36 years. Today he is well past retirement age at 79, and holds the funds to determine which drug companies or university researchers will get precious government funds or not from NIAID’s annual $5 billion budget.

    robert gallo aids coronavirus fauci

    Dr Robert Gallo

    Let’s go back to 1984 when Fauci was named head of NIAID during the Reagan era. That year an AIDS researcher, Robert Gallo, working under Fauci, held a press conference to announce that he had “discovered” the AIDS virus. He said it was HIV- human immunodeficiency virus. The shocking announcement which went around the world, was in complete disregard of scientific procedures of prior peer-reviewed published scientific evidence, including the required electron microscope analyses. It was a case of “science by press conference” as a critical scientist, Prof. Peter H. Duesberg described it. Duesberg was an award-winning researcher at Berkeley who isolated the first cancer gene through his work on retroviruses in 1970, and mapped the genetic structure of these viruses.

    For Gallo and Fauci, that was unimportant as millions in research funds flowed into NIAID to research the new virus, HIV. Fauci and Gallo claimed that AIDS was highly contagious, also by sexual transmission, especially among homosexual men. Notably, before the Gallo claim to have found the HIV AIDS virus, NIAID had been doing research on the role of drugs, poppers or nitrites, proven immune-suppressants, in the deaths of the earliest AIDS patients. That was quickly dropped in favor of researching a “cure” for AIDS. Media was told that AIDS was the “public health threat of the Century.” Gallo went on to make millions on his patented blood test for HIV, despite the fact that the test was often giving false positives and did not test directly for the alleged virus but for active antibodies, something immunology practice said was not valid, as antibodies merely suggested a past infection response and not necessarily presence of AHIV. At this time in the 1980’S Fauci was responsible for AIDS research at NIAID, a post he still holds.

    False Tests?

    The issue of HIV/AIDS tests is central. While a frightened world was clamoring for a test, Gallo and Fauci promoted their deeply flawed tests of antibodies. In 2006 Gallo claimed, “HIV tests were highly accurate from the time they were developed in 1984 and have become much more accurate over time…” Highly accurate in 1984 but more accurate than highly over time? Gallo added in response to criticism, “A PCR test for the presence of the virus itself can accurately determine a child’s HIV status.”

    In a sharp rebuttal of the Gallo claims, claims endorsed by Fauci and the NIAID as well as CDC, Roberto A. Giraldo, MD and Etienne de Harven, MD, the scientist who produced the first electron micrograph of a retrovirus, pointed out that both the ELISA and Western blot, and a genetic test, the PCR or ‘Viral Load’ test,” the two major tests used to determine if one has AIDS, are invalid. “None of these tests detect the HIV virus itself, nor do they detect HIV particles.” They add that there are “more than 70 different documented conditions that can cause the antibody tests to react positive without an HIV infection.” Among the false positive cases are influenza, the common cold, leprosy or the existence of pregnancyThe same tests are used today to determine SARS-CoV-2-positive.

    They concluded,

    “The fact that after 25 years of intense research HIV has been neither isolated nor purified in terms of classical virology indicates to us that the infectious view of AIDS as a contagious viral disease is based on an apparently non-existent microbe!”

    Giraldo and de Harven declared, “The alleged existence of HIV was asserted from the study of proteins, reverse transcriptase activity (RT), and RNA fragments that were found in culture supernatants, not from the direct analysis of purified viral particles.” The CDC requires a positive antibody test for HIV to determine AIDS in the USA. Yet in Africa since 1985 the WHO requires no HIV test or any other laboratory test. Merely the patient’s symptoms that can include weight loss, chronic diarrhea, prolonged fever, persistent cough and such, symptoms endemic to chronic poverty, malnutrition and lack of sanitation.

    Yet this fraud has shaped the career of Tony Fauci for more than 35 years. Fauci as head of NIAID has taken millions from the Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation as well as the Clinton Foundation along with tens of billions from US taxpayers for this bogus research. Suspiciously, the 2006 article by Giraldo and de Harven was suddenly retracted by the journal in 2019 just before the coronavirus Wuhan outbreak.

    Despite the fact that he knew the established rules of virology, Fauci, as head of NIAID, recommended the Burroughs Wellcome chemotherapy drug, AZT as a “preventive drug” for HIV diagnosed patients even without symptoms! Burroughs Wellcome gave NIAID the study that was deliberately biased for AZT. Fauci even backed AZT for pregnant women despite the grave risk to the fetus. One mark of pregnancy in all women is a higher level of antigens as the natural immune system fights any infection to protect the fetus. AZT or Retrovir, a failed leukemia drug, has been proven to be a highly toxic drug. It was approved for AIDS testing in a record 5 days by Fauci and the US Government in 1987. Today despite more than thirty years funded research and billions of dollars, no effective vaccine for HIV/AIDS exists.

    Fauci and Gilead

    According to people who have studied the role of Tony Fauci as head of NIAID, his focus has been what is called scientific reductivism, described as “a 19 Century-style, single-germ theory for a complex web of factors that collapsed the immune systems of a subset of gay men in the early 1980s.” He has refused to explore the documentation that a variety of lethal drugs and other toxins such as nitrites could play a role. As a result he has wasted tens of billions of taxpayer dollars since 1984 on dead end experiments. One of his most nefarious was his collaboration with Gilead Sciences.

    Not satisfied with having developed a false positive test for AIDS and having gained FDA fast-track approval for AZT to treat HIV-positive patients with serious illness symptoms, Fauci decided to collaborate with Gilead (as in the Biblical “balm of Gilead”) on what came to be called PrEP experiments.

    azt gilead science fauci truvada

    © AP Photo/Jeff Chiu, File
    Fauci promoted Truvada (AZT) as a prophylactic to the AIDS virus

    Fauci in 2007 began to finance clinical trials of the AZT drugs in HIV “negatives,” on the theory the chemotherapy would “protect” them from becoming “positive.” That is, testing toxic HIV drugs on otherwise healthy persons to “insure” they never got AIDS. If it sounds mad, it was. Gilead supplied the drug, Truvada, to NIAID between 2007-2012 for Phase III human tests on HIV negative subjects. Four tests of at least 2,000 and up to 5,000 test subjects each, were done. The project was called “pre-exposure prophylaxis” or “PrEP.” Healthy subjects were given doses of chemotherapy drug Truvada on the thesis it could prevent them from one day getting HIV-positive. CDC, in its May 2014 recommendation urged physicians to prescribe Truvada for negatives in the so-called “risk groups,” an official government imprimatur for an extremely profitable drug.

    The FDA ignored two of the four Truvada tests that had failed and been halted. Despite that and owing to data manipulation by Fauci’s NIAID and Gilead, the FDA approved the dangerous Truvada for PrEP. Today Gilead lists the side effects of Truvada: Kidney problems, including kidney failure; worsening Hepatitis B; too much lactic acid in your blood (lactic acidosis), which can lead to death; severe liver problems, which can lead to death; bone problems. They state that Truvada “can help reduce the risk of getting HIV-1 through sex, when taken every day and used together with safer sex practices.”

    The Fauci-Gilead scam of promoting Truvada for healthy people to “reduce risk” of HIV is a marker for the level of medical malpractice and in some cases evident criminal abuse of human health that the current White House coronavirus guru, A. Fauci, represents.

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  • Fri, Sep 04, 2020 - 11:12am

    mjtrac

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    mjtrac said:

    Can I counter that argument?  My assumption is that Fauci was waiting on controlled trial results.  (The concern that HCQ was hazardous never made sense to me, for all the reasons presented in Chris Martenson's videos, and still doesn't.  I'm prepared for a less malicious explanation to emerge than that Fauci is a sellout.  I am perfectly willing to believe that media science reporting is heavily dependent on what is said to lazy, overworked, or uneducated/uncaring reporters by lobbyists from pharma, and I believe that explains the favorable reporting on Remdesivir.)

    No, I honestly do not believe that Joe Biden is suffering from dementia. No, I honestly don't see anything strange or concerning about how he touches children.  I do have concerns about the behavior, from long before his election right up through yesterday, of the current President.

    I wonder if hosting this conversation fills Chris Martenson with pride.  It shouldn't, IMO.  If that's what you mean by my encouraging censorship, guilty as charged.

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  • Fri, Sep 04, 2020 - 12:21pm

    ao

    ao

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    flabbergasted!

    "No, I honestly do not believe that Joe Biden is suffering from dementia. No, I honestly don't see anything strange or concerning about how he touches children."

    mjtrac, ask any medical professional who has worked with patients with dementia.  If one does not see any evidence of early dementia in Joe Biden, I don't know what can be said or shown that would convince them otherwise.  Let me ask you this, do you see any evidence of significant cognitive decline or do you think his cognition is completely normal and appropriate for becoming POTUS?

    In terms of how he touches females, especially younger females, am I correct in assuming you find his behavior perfectly acceptable?  You would be OK with him touching your wife or daughter in this way?  And the females who pull away from him, obviously uncomfortable with the inappropriate touching, are all just being overly sensitive and there is nothing wrong with what he is doing?  Do you truly believe that?

     

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  • Fri, Sep 04, 2020 - 12:24pm

    thc0655

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    4

    Mjtrac

    I can’t for the life of me see why you’re still here. Most of us are irretrievably deplorable and uneducable, and your noble efforts have been in vain. It looks like we’ll never “get it.” Thanks for trying though.

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  • Fri, Sep 04, 2020 - 12:30pm

    Doug

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    Inappropriate behavior - ao

    "You would be OK with him touching your wife or daughter in this way?"

    Oh, you mean as opposed to the way the p*ssy grabber-in-chief treats women?  Why isn't that serial sex predator ever discussed here?

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  • Fri, Sep 04, 2020 - 12:42pm

    mjtrac

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    2

    mjtrac said:

    You're welcome.

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  • Fri, Sep 04, 2020 - 12:49pm

    mememonkey

    Status: Bronze Member

    Joined: Nov 01 2009

    Posts: 142

    7

    Eppur si muove

    AO,

    My assumption here is that mjtrac is not seeing the numerous compilations and examples of Biden's cognitive decline or the numerous examples of inappropriate touching because  given his disdain for all things tbp, I highly doubt he watched the video provided that shows the inappropriate groping and child sniffing.

    You can't see something you refuse to watch, and it's pretty obvious that mjtrac has CNN party line blinders on.   No coverage of these issues in the mainstream media  other than to ridicule and shut down discussion of  these issues as conspiracy, but never, you'll notice with the accompanying video evidence provided as context.

    This is not a binary equation.   It's OK to detest Trump and recognize his manifest flaws, that doesn't mean that Biden isn't  corrupt,  senile with strong evidence of dementia and highly inappropriate with women and children.  Including credible allegations of rape which are conveniently memory holed.

    The cognitive dissonance is off the charts!

    mm

     

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  • Fri, Sep 04, 2020 - 1:09pm

    MarkM

    MarkM

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    Doug

    Direct me to the videos to back your statement, please. The videos of Biden's behavior are there for all to see. I won't bother posting 5 or 10, you can search for yourself.

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  • Fri, Sep 04, 2020 - 1:39pm

    ao

    ao

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    Doug, you're welcome to discuss it if you'd like

    No one is stopping you.  But that wasn't one of the questions I posed.  And I would expect better of you than posing a strawman argument.

    But I'll even grant you your strawman.  Whatever Trump, did or didn't do (and this is in no way a defense of his character), at least it's not with underage girls and not in the public eye and at least his cognition seems intact.

    Getting back to the questions though, I'd really like to hear mjtrac's answer.  Unless, of course, you'd seek to disengage mjtrac from the uncomfortable by requesting we "move on".

    I always have to chuckle when I hear that phrase.  My wife used to walk with a very liberal friend who would go on and on about political issues.  My wife would politely listen even though she did not necessarily agree with all of this woman's views.  Well, one day my wife and this woman invited me to go for a walk with them.  As I'm sure you realize by now, I usually don't hesitate to engage in sensitive conversational topics including politics and religion (which are two of the most interesting topics in my opinion).  However, as soon as I started presenting view points that were different from this woman's and she could not offer substantive arguments in defense of her positions, she quickly punted and requested that we "move on".  I obliged her request but it is uncanny how often this phrase is used by those who become very emotionally attached to their views and refuse to discuss a subject at a level of detail that might actually help them learn something new.  Offhand, I don't recall that I've ever disengaged from a conversation like this and, as a consequence, if the other person is rational and intelligent, I usually learn something from them.

     

     

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  • Fri, Sep 04, 2020 - 1:39pm

    Doug

    Doug

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    Doug said:

    We don't need videos.  He bragged about it.

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  • Fri, Sep 04, 2020 - 1:46pm

    Time2help

    Time2help

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    2020 Election Chaos Being Used To Set Stage For The Final Technocratic Push

    From the Last American Vagabond - Whitney Webb Interview that concluded about 15 minutes ago. Does an excellent job of tying together many of the current narratives in play in a nonpartisan manner. Looks like it's going to get really rough from here on out. Buckle up.

    Mememonkey would be very interested in your take on this.

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  • Fri, Sep 04, 2020 - 1:57pm

    mjtrac

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    Gosh Golly Why Won't Good People Run For Office

    Hillary Clinton spends much of her life in public service.  The right dismisses her because Benghazi and the left dismisses her because she has actually tried to craft solutions that might get sufficient electoral support that they'd have a chance of happening.  The crazies announce that she's raping kids in a pizza place basement.

    Joe Biden devotes fifty years to public service.  Being the Senator from Delaware, it's fairly certain that he's got some naughty history, because that's what our society requires of people if they are going to be Senator from Delaware for any length of time. But the right hates him because he might raise taxes, and the left hates him because, as a politician in his 70s, he is not AOC.  And the crazies, with the assistance of Russia's former KGB master, put together compilations of his well-known "handiness" to declare him a child molester.

    All this while a person of trump's public record is the alternative.

    Golly gosh gee; I really wouldn't wish a run for office on my worst enemy.

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  • Fri, Sep 04, 2020 - 2:03pm

    Sparky1

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    mjtrac, PP Controversy is good for "clicks", attracts more of the same

    Mjtrac, as this deteriorating conversation seems to fester unabated by PP moderators I no longer believe that it is because the moderators are unaware of the blatant disregard for so-called PP forum guidelines and rules. I had given C&A the benefit of the doubt that they perhaps were unaware of or just too busy to intercede.  But then Chris "up-voted" MM's "Pot Kettle" comment here, in effect giving the green light to politically partisan, uncivil, bloviating posts--some of which are obviously the work of at least one or more shills that are carpeting the threads with full-length cut-and-paste articles and rants from external sources when just the link would do.

    Expect more of the same as controversy is good for prompting even more "clicks" and invites participation from instigators and extremists. After all, hot topics such as Covid, masks and HCQ have a limited internet shelf life, so time to move on to a more lucrative topic that is good for at least the next several months.

    This is a proprietary site, so C&A are certainly entitled to run it as they see fit. As I noted in my comment above, it would be helpful if they would simply modify or remove relevant portions of the PP guidelines and rules to reflect actual practice, rather than misleading people into believing that there's some actual parameters in place to ensure productive, respectful exchanges.

    I agree:  What a shame to see the decline of PP.

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  • Fri, Sep 04, 2020 - 2:47pm

    Mary59

    Mary59

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    here you go 8 minute compilation

    https://yandex.com/video/search?from=tabbar&text=biden%20pedo

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  • Fri, Sep 04, 2020 - 3:21pm

    Sparky1

    Sparky1

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    tbp: links please

    tbp, you said of me specifically the following:

    You deal with false narratives,

    identical "Woke" PC thought (that's why the label NPC is so accurate and appropriate),

    making you virtue-signalling [sic]

    safe-space-seeking

    riots-and-looting-supporting

    Overton-window-reducing victimhood-mentality-imbued weaklings

    calling for censorship of opposing views...

    As evidence, please provide links to any comments I've made that support each of your patently false assertions above.  Thank you.

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  • Fri, Sep 04, 2020 - 3:35pm

    Janie-em

    Janie-em

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    7

    Yes, tbp, the criminal histories of the men who attacked Kyle are much worse than we are being told

    tbp, you can read the details in the link to @radiofreeelk's twitter page below. Joseph Rosenbaum was a child rapist and molester who hurt 5 little boys. Anthony Huber, had several felonies for strangling and beating his girlfriend and daughter. These men, and Michael Reinoehl, who killed Aaron "Jay" Danielson, are criminals with long histories of violent crime, and were probably paid to riot. This information was found by an ordinary person doing a public records search. Not one mainstream media "journalist" bothered to investigate the facts or report on them .https://twitter.com/RadioFreeElk/status/1301358035298787337

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  • Fri, Sep 04, 2020 - 4:58pm

    Jim H

    Status: Bronze Member

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    2

    Sparky I have got to hand it to you....

    You are a very capable persuasive speaker/writer.  Shaming the site's proprietors and some of the posters as supporters of and makers of click bait.  The backsliding... the failure to comport with the site's own rules... it's all just a dirty shame.

    Then again, many of us learned how not to die from Covid-19 here... so there's that little redeeming quality at least.

    Anyway... you are capable of military-grade online community organizing.... you are in the wrong business being here (or are you?).

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  • Fri, Sep 04, 2020 - 5:01pm

    ao

    ao

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    6

    Doug, did you ever hear someone brag about something they didn't do

    Trump may or may not have done what he bragged about.  But the accusation about him groping the woman on the airplane turned out to be completely false.  There was a gentleman who sat right across from them who said Trump was a perfect gentleman the whole time and, in fact, the female accuser was gushing all over Trump.  Also, they were in first class with a divider between them that precluded what she said Trump did.

    If you watch the woman who accused him of the dressing room escapade, you can tell straight off, she's a complete nutcase.  For Pete's sake, she was coming on to Anderson Cooper, lol.  Did Trump do something with her?  Perhaps, but was it consensual or not?  Only the two of them know for sure but the woman does not present as a credible witness.

    Does that make Trump pure as the driven snow?  Absolutely not.  But neither does it make him a "serial sexual predator".  Let's try and have at least a semblance of fairness and realism about this.  He is a deeply flawed man but he's not the devil incarnate.  Gee, that sounds like a lot of other politicians and top business leaders on both sides of the political fence, doesn't it?  Certainly not something most of the decent public likes but something we've allowed to go on.  Shame on us for doing so.

    As for mjtrac's mention of Hillary Clinton's and Joe Biden's "devotion" to public service , let's make it very clear that this time spent in public service was far from selfless and altruistic.  The political class in our neo-feudalistic society is akin to the aristocracy in a feudal society.  Hillary enriched herself to a phenomenal degree during this "service".  Joe, being not nearly as smart, enriched himself also but to a much lesser extent.  However, if he had started up a Biden Foundation, he may have had more success.

    Isn't it amazing how they all have multiple lucrative speaking engagements and book deals?  My, my, my ... what wisdom and knowledge they have to share and how valuable that is ... NOT!  As anyone with a functioning brain realizes, those speaking engagements and book deals are but thinly disguised bribes ... legal yes, but certainly not ethical, at least not in my mind.

    I'd personally like to see some sort of legislation passed where these high level officials are banned from such things, if not permanently, then at least for an extended period of time, let's say 10 years.  Of course, we know that the chance of that happening is remote indeed, at least not until the pitchforks and torches come out.

    I think both sides of the political spectrum can find more important common ground though.  Would you agree that any sane and thinking person is opposed to the debt and death paradigm of reckless spending and endless wars?  Resolving those two issues of the debt and military over-expansion alone would result in a dramatic improvement in the standard of living for folks of both left and right political persuasion.  And a dramatic improvement in the standard of living for the poor, lower class, and middle class would go a long way towards erasing much of the social unrest and class conflict we see nowadays.

    Of course, neither candidate will touch the issue of the central banks and our debt based currency and economy with a ten foot pole.  Funny coincidence, isn't it?

     

     

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  • Fri, Sep 04, 2020 - 6:24pm

    kunga

    kunga

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    Joined: Feb 26 2017

    Posts: 368

    3

    Decisions, decisions

    Off the rails and into the weeds, here.  Finally realized, in my senior dotage, most choices I have made in life are between the lesser of two evils.  Nothing human or created by humans is without fatal flaws.  Even my beloved Declaration of Independence and US Constitution.  I determined some time ago, the slavery thing was going to be our downfall.  The gift that keeps on giving.  I know when the Constitution is redone, silver and gold as money will probably not make the cut.

    I have considered voting Libertarian as their platform most closely aligns with my beliefs. However, not enough clout to bring down either one of the big guys.  I feel caught between the Whore of Babylon and the Beast systems, for those who have read the last book of the Christian bible.  At this point I pray for repentance and buy a big bag of popcorn.  The circus is in town.

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  • Fri, Sep 04, 2020 - 6:45pm

    Doug

    Doug

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    4

    Doug said:

    "When someone shows you who they are, believe them the first time."

    Maya Angelou

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  • Fri, Sep 04, 2020 - 6:48pm

    mememonkey

    Status: Bronze Member

    Joined: Nov 01 2009

    Posts: 142

    9

    Putin Did It!

    Mjtrac,

    “And the crazies, with the assistance of Russia's former KGB master, put together compilations of his well-known "handiness" to declare him a child molester.”

    Yeah, something tells me Bad Vlad is not spending any time assisting  compile or promoting YouTube videos of Biden sniffing, fondling and groping uncomfortable young girls and women.

    Given that he is running a world power Nation State with superior Nuclear arms technology developed under his watch while he's engaged in geostrategically out maneuvering and containing the belligerent neocons embedded in a dying global empire, while an epochal shift to a multipolar world is underway all while  comporting with International law and trying to avoid a direct military engagement with said dying empire.

    But let’s say hypothetically your DNC Rachel Maddow talking point is correct.  He’s instead spending his energy compiling and promoting  “Biden Handiness”  fetish Videos to discredit this great  statesman.

    Does it not bother you that he’s got so much sniffing and groping source material to make the lengthy cringe reels?   Do the clips not speak for themselves?

    mm

     

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  • Fri, Sep 04, 2020 - 8:09pm

    Mysterymet

    Mysterymet

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    Joined: May 23 2020

    Posts: 108

    9

    Facts don’t care about your feelings

    People who can’t argue their case based on rational arguments and facts tend to plead for censorship of opposing view points. Note: life is NOT a safe space. If you think it is you better check yourself.
    As far as “conspiracy theories“ go, who thought “Fast and furious” was some conspiracy theory until it came out that it actually happened. I try and do my own research whenever possible because it doesn’t take a wild imagination to see that we are being lied to and manipulated by the MSM, politicians and other people in positions of authority. Follow the money and you might be surprised where it leads.

    Also, to the people who enjoy degrading people who vote for Trump, remember this, every time you open your mouth to insult others you create more Trump voters who will vote for him NOT because they like him but because they hate the behavior of people calling themselves liberal that are anything but...

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  • Fri, Sep 04, 2020 - 10:42pm

    Sparky1

    Sparky1

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    Joined: Jul 21 2016

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    2

    Thanks for the "complement", and laughs

    Whether or not I'm a capable speaker or writer matters not. Either the posts comport to the guidelines or they do not. No "shaming" here.

    "...the failure to comport with the site's own rules... it's all just a dirty shame."

    I agree. If you or anyone else has issues or concerns with the site I would encourage you to contact the site administrators, Adam and Chris. I also agree and appreciate very much that I and countless

    "...others have learned "not to die" from Covid-19,"

    but that is itself does not negate or validate other points of view expressed on this site by members or the site principals.

    Regarding "military grade organizing": LoL, my chickens, shelter dogs, cat and rabbit might disagree with you there as they pretty much rule the roost.  My comments and intentions are not nefarious or secretive, but  I appreciate the laugh just the same. 🙂

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  • Fri, Sep 04, 2020 - 11:41pm

    Sparky1

    Sparky1

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    Joined: Jul 21 2016

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    1

    Caps lock glitch....

    (I've tried several times to remove the inexplicable caps lock from my post above, without success. Please excuse the unintentional emphasis/"shouting".)

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  • Sat, Sep 05, 2020 - 7:04am

    tbp

    tbp

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    Posts: 667

    2

    Gallo-Fauci HIV fraud hypothesis; Biden senility and groping denial

    Notably, before the Gallo claim to have found the HIV AIDS virus, NIAID had been doing research on the role of drugs, poppers or nitrites, proven immune-suppressants, in the deaths of the earliest AIDS patients. That was quickly dropped in favor of researching a “cure” for AIDS.

    Gallo had also, incredibly, been claiming that HIV was the cause of cancer. It was a newly discovered virus they were looking to capitalize on by means of attributing it to a disease condition.

    I've been on both sides of this fence during my years of research, as deep virology data was/is hard for me to interpret, and it was hard to fathom that level of corruption in the medical/virological field, but now that we see the extreme corruption in the SC2/Covid arena, coupled with Montagnier's and Mikovits' info/claims, I lean strongly towards the Gallo-Fauci fraud hypothesis. HIV by itself seems to be a rather innocuous virus, and the immune deficiency would be caused by absurd numbers of sex partners and drug combinations (in the promiscuous gay community) and malnutrition (in Africa) along with highly toxic prophylactic treatments such as high-dose chronic use of AZT, coupled with the modifying of definitional parameters of disease/syndrome diagnosis (as they may also have done earlier with polio).

    @mjtrac
    No, I honestly do not believe that Joe Biden is suffering from dementia. No, I honestly don't see anything strange or concerning about how he touches children. I do have concerns about the behavior, from long before his election right up through yesterday, of the current President.

    I wonder if hosting this conversation fills Chris Martenson with pride. It shouldn't, IMO. If that's what you mean by my encouraging censorship, guilty as charged.

    Holy shit. WOW! That's just astonishing. You've now directly confirmed that you are believing the TV over your own eyes! And with an appeal to censorship and shaming. I also cannot understand why you are here, when clearly you belong to the CNN/MSNBC/NYT/WaPo mockingbird gang.

    @Doug
    Oh, you mean as opposed to the way the p*ssy grabber-in-chief treats women? Why isn't that serial sex predator ever discussed here?

    That's literally the ONLY thing you've got against Trump: He once said in a private conversation with a friend that he's so famous and a celebrity to such as degree that he could "grab women by the pussy" if he wanted to. That's the most you've got. By all accounts except the few presented by the corporate legacy media he's a gentleman with women. Him saying that ranks near the bottom of my list of legitimate criticisms of Trump. It certainly doesn't make him a "serial sex predator", while the rival candidate actually is. Beyond pathetic.

    @Sparky1
    Expect more of the same as controversy is good for prompting even more "clicks" and invites participation from instigators and extremists

    Dude, YOU are the extremist. You believe every single absurd lie drilled into your mind by political activists posing as journalists/unbiased reporters. You're believing the most absurd and pathetic conspiracy theory of modern history, which is the Russian collusion hoax. There is no greater sign of brainwashing than that... actually there is: the two points about Biden below.

    tbp, you said of me specifically the following:
    You deal with false narratives,
    identical "Woke" PC thought (that's why the label NPC is so accurate and appropriate),
    making you virtue-signalling [sic]
    safe-space-seeking
    riots-and-looting-supporting
    Overton-window-reducing victimhood-mentality-imbued weaklings
    calling for censorship of opposing views...
    As evidence, please provide links to any comments I've made that support each of your patently false assertions above. Thank you.

    It's what you've been doing all over this thread (except perhaps virtue-signalling [valid British English btw]). You don't even know that you're supporting riots and looting because you're told it's not happening. Add Maoist shaming behavior to the list:

    It's what all NPCs are doing because of allowing the MSM to control your minds. Your views are literally identical. We know exactly where you're receiving your (dis)information from. You don't respond to evidence. Respond to the Biden touching children video first and foremost. Here it is again:

    Respond first to this. Tell me how that's appropriate touching. Also respond to his obvious cognitive decline -- does he have dementia, yes or no?

    Take some mushrooms or something sir, because in your current state, you are fully (mentally) enslaved without having either a clue or a desire to find out how that is so. Same goes for mjtrac.

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  • Sat, Sep 05, 2020 - 10:09am

    mememonkey

    Status: Bronze Member

    Joined: Nov 01 2009

    Posts: 142

    10

    Whitney Web video response

    Time2Help,

    Since you asked for my take, on the Whitney Web video here it is:

    You correctly identified this video discussion as important and I  would urge everyone to invest an hour of their time to listen to it.( and read her work)  I believe it provides actionable intelligence for people in preparing for what is coming by framing the bigger picture of current events with documented behind the scenes skulduggery.

    First, I would say that Whitney Web is an incredibly smart and capable investigative and research Journalist, the likes of which sadly mostly no longer exist. She digs deep and has a savant-like ability to identify patterns and connections across a wide range of disparate domains and importantly, time frames, reaching back years, sometimes generations to connect the dots.

    She did this masterfully with the best take on Epstein, framed in the historical context and lineage of the nexus of Organized crime and  Intelligence agencies creating political compromat by leveraging sex and pedophilia in an unbroken chain from WW2, through Hoover, Roy Cohn and on up  to the latest incarnation with the Epstein Saga.

    She did similar work for an expose of the post 911 Anthrax attacks,  the Bio Security complex  and it's tentacles in the Vaccine/ pharmaceutical agenda that is intertwined with the  current pandemic and not coincidentally the suppression of common sense remedies like HCQ, Ivermectin etc.

    She's also done incredible work outlining the depth and scope of Israel's technical political and intelligence penetration into our communications networks high tech sector and infrastructure by their signals intelligence industrial complex.  It is no surprise for people paying attention that they are a key player in the current situation.

    Importantly Whitney has a rare quality that used to exist in journalism that she documents and cites her sources and is careful to distinguish between facts and probabilities or informed  speculation.  This allows the reader to make their own judgments.  This being an interview, it leans more to a discussion of likely meaning of the facts she has surfaced.  I would encourage everyone to read her various series including the article that is the basis of this discussion.

    This video is a discussion of her latest work that lays out the 'bi partisan'  players including the same neocon criminals that brought us 911, the ""Patriot ACT" and the Israeli Clean Break Plan re marketed as a war on terror and all of its subsequent and pre planned wars in the MENA region.

    She discusses how they are seeding the ground (public's expectations) through the now familiar technique of foreshadowing, trial balloons  narrative manipulation and normalizing  future scenarios for the constitutional crisis, that is headed to a denouement in the weeks following our upcoming election.

    Scenarios that they've been work shopping and war gaming since long before the pandemic and current  civil unrest and which will provide convenient and somehow familiar narratives when the shit starts to unfold.  She makes the case that they are normalizing the soon to be public face of our actual rulers that has to date been hidden in the theater of our democratic simulacrum

    There are many obvious examples of seeding the ground   that you've no doubt seen,  including Hillary Clinton statements that Biden should under no circumstance concede, ( I would add: Pelosi reminding us that she is third in line to the presidency  a fact that is will become relevant as to who is put in charge,  if they can delay by fraud, law-fare and disruption  the certification of electors until Jan 20)  As well as discussions and reporting to normalize the use of military to remove Trump when he refuses to leave...he is after all an " Enemy of the State"...promoting pandemic fears that normal voting in person is not safe. to push to the election to mail in which facilitates their strategy,  etc etc.

    Lest this sound like It's one sided, Whitney is very clear to call out the right wing side of these agendas, the manipulation of public opinion that is seeding the ground for a federal policing force and point out that both sides of the polity are being manipulated, divided and weaponized to serve an agenda that serve the elite

    As an aside, referencing this video is the most useful post of this entire thread in my opinion and while it will no doubt be denied or derided by the resident sheep here in the unlikely event that they actually listen to it, because it will trigger their Pavlovian crazy conspiracy theory response conditioning.   Perspectives like those that this post represent are profoundly important to waking people up to our very dark  reality.

    This is why is it is so critical to keep this site free of censorship including the soft censorship of the emotional safe space and to allow "Adult Conversation" as Rector so aptly put it.

    mm

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  • Sun, Sep 06, 2020 - 12:23pm

    Mysterymet

    Mysterymet

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    Joined: May 23 2020

    Posts: 108

    1

    Ritual public shaming video

    OMG that was a creepy and alarming video.

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  • Mon, Sep 07, 2020 - 7:32am

    tbp

    tbp

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    Joined: Apr 12 2020

    Posts: 667

    0

    Biden clips that should instantly end his career

    You'd think those Biden clips should be the #1 point brought up by every "journalist" in every media outlet, which by itself should end Biden's career. Imagine for a moment that they had video of Trump doing what Biden does in those clips.

    Sparky1, mjtrac, and Doug have no way to respond to it (mjtrac did say "No, I honestly do not believe that Joe Biden is suffering from dementia. No, I honestly don't see anything strange or concerning about how he touches children" but I bet that was before he actually watched the short videos proving him wrong via his own eyes), that's why they go silent.

    As 'B Freeman' wrote (source):

    @Bob Ablaw yes, this is a main way they communicate. It's a hive mind, outsourced to middlemen thought "process" with a major lack of proofs besides the old good guy badge/authority title- So it Must be true! (Why would they lie to us?)
    And so they operate on One Frequency, I would guess a manipulated Alpha or a programmed Delta, but I am not an expert.
    I can see it, know what I see, but I don't know what they call it. It reminds me of Mkultra (possibly a minor dosage from TV?).

    Indeed, people assume it's purely about the content itself, but there are extensive TV frequency pulse and modulation-related patents to manipulate brainwaves down toward alpha, which is a kind of hypnosis that makes the viewer more easily (unconsciously) passively accept/sympathize with the received ideas, while also keeping the viewer couchlocked watching for longer. Self-induced alpha, as in meditative practices, is of course a completely different (and highly beneficial) alpha brainwave state.

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  • Mon, Sep 07, 2020 - 11:39am

    stevedaly

    stevedaly

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    Posts: 161

    0

    Did anyone else notice?

    Again and again in her presentation she seemed to suffer stage fright.  Gave up on watching.

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  • Tue, Sep 08, 2020 - 12:58am

    Peggy

    Peggy

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    Joined: Mar 29 2020

    Posts: 59

    3

    Peggy said:

    Seems everyone here has an opinion based on what they believe to be true. Wouldn't it be shocking if what you believe to be true was in fact based on falsities?

    Would you change your outraged stance if you discovered the actuak FACTS of the situation are not what you believe them to be?

    Would you rather go for truth or for being right?

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  • Tue, Sep 08, 2020 - 2:51pm

    robtompkins

    robtompkins

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    robtompkins said:

    I agree with you.  Below is a link to an article on a study recently conducted that shows that approximately 93% of the BLM protests have not involved any violence or property destruction.

    Adam Taggart, I am not sure why you would write an article like this that states that suddenly many people are really scared of riots and violence from these protests.  You do not offer any statistics or data confirming such a widespread fear.  And to state or even imply that the BLM protests are due to what the Fed has and is doing, and other state sponsored gifts to the already ultra wealthy is just plain ridiculous.  Racism is still a real problem in this country, much more than in many other countries.  And that is what is at the root of these protests.  To not understand that is just plain ridiculous.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/sep/05/nearly-all-black-lives-matter-protests-are-peaceful-despite-trump-narrative-report-finds

     

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  • Tue, Sep 08, 2020 - 3:08pm

    stevedaly

    stevedaly

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    Riots Saturday night in Denver

    https://denver.cbslocal.com/2020/08/23/denver-police-protests-arrests-riots/

    “I want to speak to you as a Black man and as a Denver native,” Robinson said. “The narrative that these anarchists are marching for justice for Black lives is frankly false. The public needs to know that you do not represent us. Stop using the color of my skin to tear up my city.”

    “Last night was a riot in our city,” said Denver Mayor Michael Hancock. “We will not be using the words protest or march. This was a riot.”

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  • Tue, Sep 08, 2020 - 4:31pm

    robtompkins

    robtompkins

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    robtompkins said:

    As someone who listens to Richard Wolff on a regular basis, I found myself once again agreeing with what he says in this video.  Let us all just wake up to the obvious facts.  There is still an awful problem of racism in this country.  It certainly has gotten better compared to what it was like in the 1950's and centuries before that (I am nearly 71 years old and have seen the changes), but there are still too many whites and other people of "lesser color" who have not faced up to what all too many people of color have to deal with on a very regular basis.  This includes law officers who treat people of color, and especially blacks, differently than they do whites.  Certainly there are lots of decent law officers, but we owe it to them to help them get rid of those fellow officers that do not practice the law in an unbiased manner.  And I really think it requires those of us who are white to work at the local level of our policing forces to demand that law officers being considered for hiring be reviewed by a committee of people who are not law officers, probably a committee of elected citizens.  This committee should also have a very strong say in when officers are investigated for improper actions, and definitely have a very strong say in when they are fired for improper actions.

    I would suggest that white people who don't understand that racist actions by people with some law authority is a real problem should ask their black friends or acquaintances (if you have any) whether they have had to deal with being stopped for one reason or another much more often than you have.  Or any other more dangerous interactions with some law officers.  If you do that, you will soon understand why so many people of color are very upset at being treated unequally.

    Then there is just the simple truth that I only woke up to a little over 2 years ago: that the capitalist system itself has some very important problems and internal contradictions.  This was nothing that I was happy to realize.  After having read various articles and books by different people talking about the problems with fiat currencies, the Federal Reserve and other aspects of our economic and fiscal systems, and after having watched all of Chris' "Crash Course" and following Adam and Chris' interviews and articles, I somehow came across videos by Richard Wolff.  I listened to several of these and eventually came to the realization that he was right.  And it really was a case of admitting to myself that "Oh f#[email protected], he's right".  It was not a joyful moment.  But his proposal for building up an alternative sector of our economy consisting of Democratic Worker Coops (or Worker Self Directed Enterprises), and doing so from the bottom up, not by somehow capturing the government and trying to force such structures on our pre-existing economic enterprises, just made so much sense.  And learning more about how such enterprises around the world have worked and the benefits not only to the workers themselves, but to the communities and countries they exist in has made me feel positive about how we can change from our current mess to something better.

    When you add to all this the problems with declining EROI or net energy, and the really dangerous problems that climate change caused by our continuing pollution of the air/atmosphere with green house gases could very well bring about in all too short of a time period, we humans really are facing some drastic challenges.  But by keeping an open mind (including to what Marx and other critics of capitalism have actually said, not what you may think they said) while at the same time waking up to all these above mentioned problems and accepting what science is telling up about the problems we are creating on our planet, there is some hope that future generations could live in a much saner, less ugly world.

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  • Tue, Sep 08, 2020 - 5:23pm

    2retired

    2retired

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    2retired said:

    People trust groups they identify with and find trustworthy, but pervasive systemic racism, I don't believe so. As things get better for all, the goalposts of injustice shift with it.

    The Purity Paradox: How Tolerance and Intolerance Increase at the Same Time

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  • Wed, Sep 09, 2020 - 11:04am

    tbp

    tbp

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    Systemic racism, really? Fake problems & false narratives from MSM fake news

    @robtompkins
    There is still an awful problem of racism in this country. It certainly has gotten better compared to what it was like in the 1950's and centuries before that (I am nearly 71 years old and have seen the changes), but there are still too many whites and other people of "lesser color" who have not faced up to what all too many people of color have to deal with on a very regular basis.

    Please! The only reason you haven't seen those changes is because you pay attention to the MSM and identity politics ideologues that lie to you incessantly, constructing false narratives that have you believing divisive crap like that and desiring to virtue-signal your manufactured concern. The strategy is about creating narratives of victims and victimizers, hence the same neomarxist narrative exists to divide white and black, man and woman, heterosexuals and LGBT, natives and immigrants, and any other weaponization of minorities against a majority group they can come up with. How can you not see this? The most valued resource is the narrative, and you become de facto mind-controlled if you don't realize this and perceive the unfolding epic fight for the narrative.

    Nonetheless, your points about lack of oversight of police are accurate. But police brutality doesn't happen primarily due to racist prejudices (do yourself a gigantic favor and turn off TV), it happens because of the (dopamine kicks of) power differential as well as the militarization of American police.

    I would suggest that white people who don't understand that racist actions by people with some law authority is a real problem should ask their black friends or acquaintances (if you have any) whether they have had to deal with being stopped for one reason or another much more often than you have. Or any other more dangerous interactions with some law officers. If you do that, you will soon understand why so many people of color are very upset at being treated unequally.

    More often than not it's not about racial prejudice (but the MSM will always say it is if they can, i.e. if none of the cops were black). You assume it's unrelated to crime statistics and victimhood mentality programming. Please watch Candace Owens, a FULLY EMPOWERED black woman who no longer thinks of herself as a VICTIM, explain the real problem:

    People like her, not criminals like George Floyd, should be, and increasingly are as Blexit ramps up, the leaders the Black community should listen to.

    I somehow came across videos by Richard Wolff. I listened to several of these and eventually came to the realization that he was right. And it really was a case of admitting to myself that "Oh f#[email protected], he's right". It was not a joyful moment.

    I don't know anything about Wolff, and the idea of "Democratic Worker Coops (or Worker Self Directed Enterprises)" sounds interesting, but if he's a socialist, have you looked at the critiques of his work? That's the first thing you should do if you're listening to someone rehashing, reformulating and reselling you deadly socialism once again.

    But by keeping an open mind (including to what Marx and other critics of capitalism have actually said, not what you may think they said) while at the same time waking up to all these above mentioned problems and accepting what science is telling up about the problems we are creating on our planet, there is some hope that future generations could live in a much saner, less ugly world.

    But the major things you mentioned aren't the real issues. Most of the things you believe are a lie (well, actually only what you received from the MSM). The real issue is the criminal network creating false narratives out of those non-issues in order to fool you into not looking at them... and ultimately at yourself. "Science" isn't telling you those things -- instead, some people are telling you that science is telling you those things. The same people telling you HCQ doesn't work (etc etc etc).

    How many more hundreds of millions of people need to die under the failed (or successful from the perspective of tyrants) idea of state control of the means of production which eliminates competitive behavior and pre-frontal cortex advanced thinking? Look at Venezuela, less than one generation of socialism, rich in resources, people don't know what to do to put food on the table... But you'd rather try to explain it all away with "that wasn't real socialism" once again.

    Again, it's about the sources of information you're choosing to allow to influence you. Be extremely careful or they'll turn you into an NPC.

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  • Wed, Sep 09, 2020 - 11:13am

    mjtrac

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    Nope

    Just to be clear, I didn't watch the video, and I believe if Biden had dementia or was a child molester, I'd find that out from some responsible media organization.  Just call me a sheep.  Baa.

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  • Wed, Sep 09, 2020 - 11:26am

    davefairtex

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    not a sheep - the backfire effect

    mjtrac-

    No, you aren't a sheep.  You are a normal human being.

    What we are seeing is just the backfire effect in action.  Facts seldom change minds.  That's just how humans work.  And yet, all of us (me included) always think if we just supply the facts...people will believe us!

    As you stated so eloquently: "nope"

    https://effectiviology.com/backfire-effect-facts-dont-change-minds/

    In a perfectly rational world, people who encounter evidence which challenges their beliefs would first evaluate this evidence, and then adjust their beliefs accordingly. However, in reality this is seldom the case.

    Instead, when people encounter evidence that should cause them to doubt their beliefs, they often reject this evidence, and strengthen their support for their original stance. This occurs due to a cognitive bias known as the backfire effect.

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  • Wed, Sep 09, 2020 - 11:50am

    mjtrac

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    Cost / benefit

    If, say, The Guardian or the BBC started reporting that a source with a reasonable expectation of knowledge of Biden's mental state had said he had early dementia, I'd begin to investigate.  The fact that someone put together a video of (presumably) clips of Biden repeatedly saying a couple of words in awkward ways does not lead me to investigate.

    That's because like all humans I have limited time to personally investigate all facts about the world, so I've chosen to rely on experts.  It's definitely true that if the experts start lying, it would take me some time to realize that they had.  But it's still worthwhile for me to look at what selected news organizations have to say, and to assume that I can infer the truth from that.

    That's  how, for example, I've decided that AGW is real, that childhood vaccinations are desirable, and that, despite the evidence of my eyes, the earth is, mostly, spherical and microscopic organisms exist.

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  • Wed, Sep 09, 2020 - 12:36pm

    MarkM

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    tbp

    They always say "No, I will believe what the talking heads tell me to believe." No matter what evidence is presented by others. There are those with this mindset in all walks of life. They always end up being the least prepared for eventualities and the least able to cope with reality when it does not fit their framework.

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  • Wed, Sep 09, 2020 - 12:43pm

    mjtrac

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    Putin's puppet

    I assume that by this you mean that you understand that the current President of the United States won election due to the assistance of the Dictator of Russia.  Because you don't believe what the President's big talking head has to say, but weigh the evidence yourself.

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  • Wed, Sep 09, 2020 - 1:24pm

    Mysterymet

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    For someone who is Putin’s puppet he sure has sanctioned russia a lot

    CAATSA ring a bell?

    On the record: The U.S. administration’s actions on Russia

    Or maybe he should have said this to Russia instead...

    Don’t rehabilitate Obama on Russia

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  • Wed, Sep 09, 2020 - 4:09pm

    Grover

    Grover

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    Not The Same Joe

    https://www.zerohedge.com/political/not-same-joe-former-stenographer-says-bidens-cognitive-ability-has-declined-significantly
    "Not The Same Joe": Former Stenographer Says Biden's Cognitive Ability Has Declined Significantly
    He’s lost a step and he doesn’t seem to have the same mental acuity as he did four years ago,” said McCormick.

    “He doesn’t have the energy, he doesn’t have the pace of his speaking…he’s a different guy,” he added.

    This Zerohedge article is about Mike McCormick's book. McCormick was Biden's stenographer from 2011-2017.

    Obviously, McCormick is trying to sell books. He might be exaggerating a bit. But, just as obviously, Biden's lost some acuity.

    I'm really looking forward to the debates between Biden and Trump. Without a teleprompter, they'll both be on their own. 😉

    Grover

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  • Wed, Sep 09, 2020 - 5:59pm

    Rootman

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    Rootman said:

    In the US, the dems hate Russia, the reps hate China, while they both are puppets of Netanyahu.

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  • Wed, Sep 09, 2020 - 10:49pm

    stevedaly

    stevedaly

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    Antifa/BLM/Whatever Portland Tactics

    Rioters learning and becoming effective in Portland.

    https://www.americanpartisan.org/2020/09/antifa-reality-check/?__cf_chl_jschl_tk__=ea1e694ceb9ece48b333df6fa7d9dc44c920ec44-1599715326-0-AZ2wkjbgEc-UuMUseURsAZAYdk560qFOSTbSQH4u6o8KLlUiP4NM1K4Te6d1uJd6yPektM-rrAGd5CGrXzd4in1jQW07awXvMgneoQxCX5QtnGZbemJ-SiMjZPRsyfGiNippgd2GfcZY0ZfgJVKo19fab2bE2QkFy8xdE058cVcZjgtS66QRRbtV1DN3cdVBU0yIaxhgqTD-RM7u0OyCplN4aPoC8BCADknsBKQ3QqQtbehYFhIs5rGol1wr7pqRZjro6KYLVfi5ajuZzgg-6nUVMeJusHJomj2KU86UeNEWTwNFpw51BgarSU5vk5naIA

    Bottom line, man, if you had ever given me a scenario like this and said hey, you’re sober, and you have a gun, and somebody is hitting you with a bat and throwing rocks at you that could kill you or put you in a coma, you try to get away but they cut you off with a convoy of vehicles and the assault starts again. They impede your movement and beat you with bats…

    It got way worse after that video ended, they chased us for 11 city blocks. They had a convoy of about 25 vehicles that cut us off at the next intersection, They had scouts on the corner with radios, they had a drone following us, they had a bull horn calling us Nazis, and the crowd was following a red strobe light that was up in the air on a stick, so they would announce Nazis and then people would follow the red strobe light, That video is just the beginning, I’ve got a f***ing fractured hand from a baton, everyone of us has black and blue bruises up and down their legs and back.

    No prosecution.  No bail required.  The bad guys are owning the streets after dark in Portland.

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  • Thu, Sep 10, 2020 - 3:42am

    davefairtex

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    they own the streets

    Wow.  That's an incredibly compelling story.  Antifa really does own the streets.  And their tactics - at least when they are used to bully a small group - are incredibly effective.  I've always wondered what that sort of thing would look like at the ground level.  Now I know.

    Takeaway #1: you need one big trained and organized group to effectively deal with another big trained and organized group.

    Takeaway #2: Antifa is a military organization.

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  • Thu, Sep 10, 2020 - 4:54am

    Chris Martenson

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    Sorry mjtrak, but time to take a break

    I assume that by this you mean that you understand that the current President of the United States won election due to the assistance of the Dictator of Russia.

    LOL

    Your comment is so out of alignment with everything I know, the ethos of this site, and every known and assembled fact that I can only conclude one thing.

    This site isn't the right place for you.

    Further, such comments as this one detract from the overall tenor of this site by providing nothing but an unfounded assertion, itself built upon other assertions.

    Either bring data or don't bother.

    At any rate, I'm politely asking you to move on.  We're busy trying to figure out how to navigate the coming crises, not seeking to be diverted by MSM nonsense.

     

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  • Thu, Sep 10, 2020 - 5:08am

    Tycer

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    How long will they wait?

    I wonder how long the dogs will wait to slip their leashes. Those four dogs showed great restraint. I’m sure there are dogs in the crowd organizers but the majority of the crowds might be completely unprepared for a properly organized dog attack.

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  • Thu, Sep 10, 2020 - 5:55am

    thc0655

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    Posts: 2130

    4

    How long will they wait?

    My intuition is that many of “them” are counting on the rule of law to be reimposed to put down the insurrection. They’ve been waiting a long time and they’re getting restless. I suppose some event will ring the bell and the dogs of war will be loosed. I can think of no louder bell to ring than a big Trump victory the morning after the election followed by Democratic lawfare and fraud (as some of them have already said they’re going to conduct) which results in either a Biden victory or on January 20, 2021 the “temporary” installation of Nancy Pelosi as acting President.

    THE WRATH OF THE AWAKENED SAXON
    By Rudyard Kipling

    It was not part of their blood,
    It came to them very late,
    With long arrears to make good,
    When the Saxon began to hate.

    They were not easily moved,
    They were icy — willing to wait
    Till every count should be proved,
    Ere the Saxon began to hate.

    Their voices were even and low.
    Their eyes were level and straight.
    There was neither sign nor show
    When the Saxon began to hate.

    It was not preached to the crowd.
    It was not taught by the state.
    No man spoke it aloud
    When the Saxon began to hate.

    It was not suddently bred.
    It will not swiftly abate.
    Through the chilled years ahead,
    When Time shall count from the date
    That the Saxon began to hate.

    Channeling JFK who said “Ich bin ein Berliner!” I say “Many of us are Saxons now.”

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  • Thu, Sep 10, 2020 - 6:22am

    thc0655

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    5

    They only own a relatively few streets and only where the politicians enable them to

    Dave concluded,

    Takeaway #1: you need one big trained and organized group to effectively deal with another big trained and organized group.

    True, but the Portland or Seattle or NY police departments could put an end to the rioting if the mayor, governor, district attorney and judges weren’t enabling the rioting to continue. Does everyone here know that about 90% of the rioters are being immediately released without bail by the Portland D. A. (for instance), and they rejoin the riots the next night? If rioters were charged with the appropriate felonies and held without bail or on $100,000 cash bail the riots would be over in about 3-4 days. The 82nd Airborne would not be necessary to stop the riots.

    OTOH, small groups of skilled and trained counter revolutionaries could wreak havoc on the rioters if they ever conclude TPTB are NOT going to stop the riots because they are ideologically in support of them. For instance, here’s just one chilling thought experiment of what could happen.

    https://www.americanpartisan.org/2020/05/when-the-music-stops-how-americas-cities-may-explode-in-violence/?__cf_chl_jschl_tk__=7a3f6cf56ff4e70c3cb021a98bae8b22904c6207-1599743987-0-AU_dK3Yr4sjlmV2JtTY3afMobA1C5JaDAQ1lBve-TYQUzKJSAtENS-0XTRF6DA2rHiXyM4LLZVbbDnO6suwI1n_LmdSX_UlBCYPoW9cP3QruDmQbNL2y4Tjm3lCwK0YZBN_o4ubT77UsLVtO1AnM743Y7PbFQ8XLeVsChCSfojPOhmLEkeln6nreax41q8HOqMzu2NHX32gyhzd5tR0qmCdyQhqJnSXSllk_LXzUftAc-RjvYITDqu7zPTJcjbq_ZY3bmc_1LKuhD1DBbOA1VcM9T2vR5J5VcwhEbAxURYo-HyfmStiR0gxq8j8-DrLEHDpN9C7cA-XxIQkrJAN9REECnzoHkZ7Jwq9_sYM_UoJDqVS0HdN1pbMdOxq3Tz4wlg

     

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  • Thu, Sep 10, 2020 - 6:22am

    tbp

    tbp

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    mjtrac far out of track

    @mjtrac
    If, say, The Guardian or the BBC started reporting that a source with a reasonable expectation of knowledge of Biden's mental state had said he had early dementia, I'd begin to investigate. The fact that someone put together a video of (presumably) clips of Biden repeatedly saying a couple of words in awkward ways does not lead me to investigate.

    That's because like all humans I have limited time to personally investigate all facts about the world, so I've chosen to rely on experts. It's definitely true that if the experts start lying, it would take me some time to realize that they had. But it's still worthwhile for me to look at what selected news organizations have to say, and to assume that I can infer the truth from that.

    That's how, for example, I've decided that AGW is real, that childhood vaccinations are desirable, and that, despite the evidence of my eyes, the earth is, mostly, spherical and microscopic organisms exist.

    This is absolutely incredible. You say I'm calling you a sheep, but you are yourself doing that, by rejecting your OWN EYES and relying on "experts" who are lying to you, as you can verify by simply WATCHING THE VIDEO provided. It's beyond pathetic. You're openly saying you allow corporations to do ALL thinking for you (you can't even watch two short videos PROVING that Biden has dementia and touches children totally inappropriately). You call yourself a free human being???? To say you are "brainwashed" would be the understatement of your life. Quit degrading yourself to such a sad degree.

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  • Thu, Sep 10, 2020 - 6:23am

    MarkM

    MarkM

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    3

    Yes, there are Saxons among us

    ...and the number will grow.

    We wonder why the local and state government of Portland/Oregon allows this to continue. We don't know the reason, but none of the possibilities are good. The (lack of) response there does nothing other than embolden this group and allow them to perfect their craft.

    It is concerning that men with the experience of those in this story were taken aback by the situation/tactics. I don't mean that to be critical at all. It is instructive to the level of response that will ultimately be required to correct the situation. This is only the beginning.

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  • Thu, Sep 10, 2020 - 8:26am

    2retired

    2retired

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    2retired said:

    Having witnessed the French approach (in France) to riots and crowd control (where they have a long history of violent insurrections). We have yet to see any serious effort at crowd control (not for the faint at heart).

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  • Thu, Sep 10, 2020 - 12:21pm

    Grover

    Grover

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    Self Cleaning Ovens

    thc,

    Thanks for posting that link. I remember reading that essay quite a while back. I specifically remember the long range sniper vehicles at 90° positions and the spraying of bullets into the MUYs position. I also remember the author talking about the quick assemblage of rioters/looters and just as quick dispersal which he likened to the game of Whack-a-mole.

    Soon after the trucks stop bringing the necessities of life to these concrete jungles, violence will emerge. I agree with the author that ethnic or racial differences will play a large part. Look at the racial differences being magnified today over race-based slavery that ended generations ago. Some wounds never seem to heal. As soon as a someone (or a group) of one ethnicity wrongfully attacks someone from another ethnicity - and the event gets published - the battle lines will be drawn. It might get papered over during times of plenty, but mix in some hunger and it will be seen as life or death.

    I read somewhere that this situation was described as a self cleaning oven. The problem will be limited resources and violent competition for those. It won't end until law and order are reestablished enough that the truckers feel safe enough to bring needed supplies into the area. If law and order cannot be reestablished, the population will continue to plummet until whatever limiting resource is in balance with the population. (You might want to look at your situation and identify vulnerabilities.)

    I'm trying to understand the motivations driving mayors of large cities to allow riots in their cities. I can imagine that they're trying to be open minded while giving the dispossessed an opportunity to express themselves. Unfortunately, the dispossessed are joined by rioters and looters who want to use the innocent protesters as cover for their intended mayhem. Allowing the riots to continue hurts the productive portion of their citizenry particularly.

    Can someone shed some light for me?

    Grover

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  • Thu, Sep 10, 2020 - 12:53pm

    MarkM

    MarkM

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    That is the $64,000 question

    One of my thoughts is that the governing local officials are on the payroll of whomever the head disruptor might be. Without some serious reward being dangled what could the motive possibly be to allow such mayhem?

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  • Thu, Sep 10, 2020 - 1:38pm

    davefairtex

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    4

    rewards

    One of my thoughts is that the governing local officials are on the payroll of whomever the head disruptor might be. Without some serious reward being dangled what could the motive possibly be to allow such mayhem?

    Sure.  What local mayor wouldn't give his eye teeth to be Ambassador to Japan, or HHS secretary.  Instant move to national prominence.  If Biden wins, these mayors will get Federal jobs, and they won't ever have to deal with the problems of their stupid little city ever again.  There are lots and lots of plums for Team Biden to pass out to their loyal soldiers.

    Lock your city or state down.  Cause misery.  Shut your schools.  Don't open your restaurants.  You won't be blamed.  You're just "keeping your people safe."  We'll blame Trump.

    I'm already seeing the ads on youtube that do just that.

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  • Thu, Sep 10, 2020 - 2:55pm

    Grover

    Grover

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    0

    RE: Rewards

    Thanks, MarkM and DaveF. This has been mentioned before. The cynical side of me agrees that it is a powerful motive. Does it all boil down to stark political calculations? If so, do the supporters know they will pay the price eventually? Either taxes will rise or services will be cut to pay for all the damage. Who will pay - the "rich"? NYC and California are seeing what the "rich" do when taxes get too onerous. They find greener pastures elsewhere.

    I was hoping that someone with a less cynical viewpoint would add their thoughts. After all, those who support these mayoral actions must think it is somehow positive. Otherwise, why support these actions ... or the elected people performing these actions? I really want to understand the reasoning. I simply don't get it.

    Grover

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  • Thu, Sep 10, 2020 - 3:03pm

    VTGothic

    VTGothic

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    Joined: Jan 05 2020

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    2

    Hell of an Essay

    Oye, Tom!

    That's one hell of an essay. Uncomfortably realistic. I most appreciate this from the penultimate paragraph:

    We all deplore the conditions that might drive us toward such a hellish outcome, and we should work unceasingly to return America to the path of true brotherhood, peace and prosperity. Race hustlers of every stripe should be condemned.

    But I'm afraid I'm increasingly discovering that where I used to be able to foster cross-divide conversations - as recently as just a few months ago - it's nearly impossible to do so now, and we who know we see things from across a divide now prefer silence to seeking common understanding. It can only get worse from here. So I sadly resonate with these last sentences:

    John Adams said, “Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.” If that is true, judging by current and even accelerating cultural shifts, we might already have passed the point of no return.

    The prudent American will trim his sails accordingly.

    I will continue to pray for and seek resurrection of our national comity, however hopefulness weakens the closer we get to the election.

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  • Thu, Sep 10, 2020 - 4:02pm

    mjtrac

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    0

    Agreed

    Agreed.  Thanks for the early reporting.  [Useless parting shot removed by Admin]

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  • Thu, Sep 10, 2020 - 6:53pm

    agitating prop

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    agitating prop said:

    There is a lot of alt right nonsense gleaned from social media with photo-shopped pics and, no doubt, reports from Andy Ng, on this forum now.

    I hope they get equal treament, unless you think Breitbart and facebook echo chambers are excellent sources of info.

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  • Thu, Sep 10, 2020 - 9:06pm

    Jim H

    Status: Bronze Member

    Joined: Jun 08 2009

    Posts: 1219

    4

    Where to find truth....

    Agitating Prop just pooped on Andy Ngo... so let me tell fellow truth seekers again who he is;  He is a gay new media journalist in Portland who just happens to tell the truth about what is happening there in a time when mainstream media channels, as well as some of our gov't leaders (Nadler called the riots a "myth") outright lie.  If you look at Ngo's twitter feed tonight for instance, you can see how the insane mayor of Portland, who is also the Police Commissioner, has banned the use of tear gas by his department.  You will also see the response from the Portland Police Union today, linked on Ngo's twitter feed;

    https://www.portlandoregon.gov/police/news/read.cfm?id=261185&ec=1&ch=twitter

    Ngo posts pictures of those arrested and released without bail each night, allowing us to see how the legal system works (or doesn't) when run by a DA bent on destroying our country as we know it.

    Those like agitating prop who are still enslaved by the propaganda system are taught to hate the truth tellers like Ngo.  We live in a world of opposites.  Either I am completely wrong... or agitating prop and his like are completely, utterly wrong.  We can't both be right.  While I appreciate the attempts by Quercus to see both sides, there is no middle ground here.

     

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  • Thu, Sep 10, 2020 - 9:19pm

    Jim H

    Status: Bronze Member

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    Posts: 1219

    1

    The Coup Narrative

    One of our most sincere, high integrity conservative alt-media figures is Dr. Dave Janda.  He retired as an ortho surgeon in 2017.  His recent interview with friend and confidant General Tom McInerny recounts how Admiral Ace Lyons, on his death bed one day before he passed in Dec. 2018, told Tom that "The Hammer" was the key.  The key to what you ask?  The key to the illegal spying, the attempted (and ongoing) coup, and massive illegal surveillance.  The truth is that the whole of FISA-gate is really about the cover up.. the cover up of the illegal, parallel, unconstitutional spying platform that was used by leaders of the past administration to keep tabs on anyone they wanted to.

    If you want to know what was really going on you won't hear about it on the TV news or in the NYTimes.  No way.  You can though hear about it in this new interview by Dr. Dave Janda;

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  • Thu, Sep 10, 2020 - 9:59pm

    ckessel

    ckessel

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    1

    ckessel said:

    Jim,

    I enjoyed the video over on dollar collapse with Paul Craig Roberts this evening. Talks to several of the points you make, esp. arguments about 'white privilege' .

    Top Ten Videos – September 8

    Coop

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  • Thu, Sep 10, 2020 - 10:49pm

    agitating prop

    agitating prop

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    agitating prop said:

    Jim H,

    "Those like agitating prop who are still enslaved by the propaganda system are taught to hate the truth tellers like Ngo."--Jim H

    If you had any idea how extremely funny that statement is you likely wouldn't have made it. As weird as I am and as willing as I am to entertain completely lunatic scenarios, Andy Ngo doesn't pass the sniff test...at....all, not even to moi.

    And btw, how do you know that its not YOU who is being effectively propaganized, along with other 'Truthtellers?"

    Andy Ngo--Rolling Stone

    But the issue wasn’t so much that Ngo had finally been “exposed” as a right-wing provocateur as opposed to a journalist. It was that he’d managed to successfully convince so many ostensibly reasonable people otherwise, despite significant evidence to the contrary — and, in so doing, did some serious damage in the process.

    How a Right-Wing Troll Managed to Manipulate the Mainstream Media

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  • Fri, Sep 11, 2020 - 4:29am

    Chris Martenson

    Chris Martenson

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    15

    Andy Ngo

    And btw, how do you know that its not YOU who is being effectively propaganized, along with other 'Truthtellers?"

    Andy Ngo--Rolling Stone

    But the issue wasn’t so much that Ngo had finally been “exposed” as a right-wing provocateur as opposed to a journalist. It was that he’d managed to successfully convince so many ostensibly reasonable people otherwise, despite significant evidence to the contrary — and, in so doing, did some serious damage in the process.

    I read the article with interest.  However as I read it my sense that it was heavily biased increased.  Felt like a hit piece.

    Then I read the comments.  Here are the first four comments, in order, without any cherry picking by me.  Seems I wasn't alone in that view.

    I have to confess...DaveF has shaped my views here by pointing out how the Antifa shock troops have been given a free pass by various mayors and DA's, the press (as in this case) and it all seems a bit contrived.

    Like somebody powerful is trying to ignite something that I consider to be exceptionally dangerous; a breakdown of society.  A ticking clock in the background only I have no idea what its counting down to.

    That the people calling this out are routinely savaged by the same "press" that brought us Russiagate and which can't figure out that Fauci is indescribably horrible in his role tells me that the polarization is systematic and pretty much complete.

    If the destruction of critical thinking was Act I, then this all feels like Act II.

    Again, I can't figure out what to do besides remove myself from it all as much as possible while it tears itself apart.  Gold, silver, land, cows, a garden and great friends along with a strong program of consistent self-defense training.  That's my current personal strategy.

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  • Fri, Sep 11, 2020 - 7:49am

    Cj Sloane

    Cj Sloane

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    Cj Sloane said:

    I just listened to this great podcast It Could Happen Here. It breaks down how and why Civil War 2.0 could happen.

    It's decidedly left leaning but very prescient. Released in 2019 it has only become more relevant. Lots of talk about Portland. Cops v Protesters.

    Particularly interesting the point that the same "facts" can be interpreted differently. Did that Sandman kid mock those Native Americans? Did DJT ask Russia to intervene in the 2016 election (“Russia, if you’re listening, I hope you’re able to find the 30,000 emails that are missing,”). Did Russia in fact, intervene? Or the latest, was Trump's minimizing of the virus a good thing or a bad thing?

    The worst possible division is left/right. Left being IDK, 'Transgender Black Marxists' seek to overthrow U.S., Trump backer Michele Bachmann says (LOL OK) or the right instituting a Christian Theocracy.

    Best case scenario is probably class warfare. As wealth accumulates to the upper 1% everyone gets mad. Left/right distracts us from the real villains in this story.

    https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/it-could-happen-here/id1449762156?fbclid=IwAR0SwaR1A_NYul-Tg8V5UGfj7DsgdkGg-ZWHoFUApi88Ih994u-7B0_1seg

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  • Fri, Sep 11, 2020 - 8:08am

    Grover

    Grover

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    2

    I Still Don't Get It

    In post #228, I wrote:

    I was hoping that someone with a less cynical viewpoint would add their thoughts. After all, those who support these mayoral actions must think it is somehow positive. Otherwise, why support these actions ... or the elected people performing these actions? I really want to understand the reasoning. I simply don't get it.

    agitating prop,

    You apparently have a different viewpoint on this subject. I'd appreciate if you could share your thoughts concerning the actions of these authorities. I can support non-violent protests. That is people exercising their First Amendment rights. Once it becomes violent, it crosses over to criminal behavior. Why is that okay? If it isn't nipped in the bud, the violators become emboldened. Those who originally just wanted to protest peacefully see that violence is acceptable. I can imagine that many of them up their game to keep up with the more violent protestors. That's what happens in crowds.

    My real question is why do the people who voted for these authorities accept this behavior? Politicians always want to see that they still have support for their actions. After all, if they lose the support of their base, they won't get reelected. That tells me that their base still supports these actions.

    I'm not asking you to speak for these folks - just yourself. If you'd prefer to discuss this privately, send me a PM. (That invitation applies to anyone who can explain the situation.) I just want to understand.

    Grover

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  • Fri, Sep 11, 2020 - 9:09am

    davefairtex

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    6

    andy ngo

    Go read Andy's twitter feed.  Judge for yourself.  Source material beats someone else's narrative any day of the week.

    https://twitter.com/MrAndyNgo

    He is the antidote to the phrase: "mostly peaceful protests.'

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  • Fri, Sep 11, 2020 - 9:10am

    thc0655

    Status: Platinum Member

    Joined: Apr 27 2010

    Posts: 2130

    3

    Terrorist Bill Ayers says the Civil War has already started

    https://pjmedia.com/news-and-politics/tyler-o-neil/2020/09/11/weather-underground-terrorist-bill-ayers-suggests-the-civil-war-has-already-begun-n917703

    Well, I guess he would know.

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  • Fri, Sep 11, 2020 - 9:12am

    Nate

    Nate

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    sage advice

    I can't figure out what to do besides remove myself from it all as much as possible while it tears itself apart.  Gold, silver, land, cows, a garden and great friends along with a strong program of consistent self-defense training.  That's my current personal strategy.

    Chris has been sharing this message for over a decade.  He also says I'd rather be a year early than a day late.  We are rapidly approaching day late territory.

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  • Fri, Sep 11, 2020 - 11:13am

    agitating prop

    agitating prop

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    agitating prop said:

     

     

    So Chris,

    If I understand you correctly, you have an opinion on Ngo that is shaped by comments sections where you cannot source the responses.. rather than article itself?

    And you deride anything then that doesn't conform to those opinions as "mainstream media?"

    Media is all social now. It is opinion rather than facts driven. It is a gossip mill, a histrionic side show-- and factions of the deep state are leveraging influence and power using it as a vehicle. To think otherwise is incredibly naive.

    The Portland antifa side show was winding down until federalized troops were sent in to "restore order." When mayors and police forces "do nothing" it is likely due to a desire to deescalate.

    Nobody is on the side of violence or destruction of property. It's wrong and both anti-fa and the provocatuers who stir that hornet's nest should be ashamed. But Man, have the MSM, particularly Fox ratcheted this up like crazy. Anti fa and left wing nonsense are apparent. But let's not forget that the impetus that provides traction, are largely unseen.

    https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Andy_Ngo

    Right-wing media widely claimed that Ngo had had a brain hemorrhage. If so, he improved remarkably quickly -- Ngo was discharged and appeared on Fox News the next day.[29] Right-wing media also widely claimed that Ngo had been attacked by a "cement milkshake", including Fox News[30] (who later backtracked their coverage)[31] and Ted Cruz. Such a milkshake, if used, would not be effective as mixtures with more than 1% sugar prevent cement from settling.[32]

    Ngo's reporting about these protests is full of misinformation, as shown in a Twitter thread by @RespectableLaw from August 2019.

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  • Fri, Sep 11, 2020 - 11:16am

    thc0655

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    7

    If politicians won’t let the police protect you, you have to protect yourself

    https://www.americanpartisan.org/2020/09/armed-citizens-must-defend-their-communities-from-rioting-mobs-if-the-politicized-police-will-not/?&__cf_chl_jschl_tk__=119cb75681bd7b9e1d74292219f52ab4498b0f89-1599847326-0-AeWJoiqj9TUC3RDlcbjyT1Y0GOFzEwXbKMqlxFXPXed7MCq5PVh88YzYl_OVvQSRZpw_1BIbXe_CzsFnJKEMHZqDpDc5DphhamaKezTSlXveNVEZ9llmh40ag47QELpLjtCJrxlr6RzywsF8WKKmENn3kQzXmlDvVSm_JiRwB83yrEefydgsIpzz7KYlukIlNm6X_Q9HVSqbDtjefKXotS3r1_a7BI0BL8WMyLVATjohj1NfAbGDkheV9iaHKLgpl0A1kCNAPjG-jFkZruufXepTyX3xELUjY7f6Y894McWBlTtX33OdG0D812BayMdcQO_VFlH68RYNGYS8_hvFi6gXF0BQMrujLv2K4FXvaboA77ae7n-8Yc8CxyE8PQiHR9-jrh_viZvFVuz9IHLXoab30CbI89lie1unGwvSjpHG

    In societies living under the Rule of Law, sworn Law Enforcement (LE) officers have always been considered fully justified in applying lethal force against violent mobs during arson riots, such as those which have been occurring with regularity in American cities during the terrible summer of 2020. This was the intent and meaning of police officials publicly “Reading the Riot Act,” announcing over a loudspeaker that a violent mob had been declared to be an unlawful assembly, that is to say, a riot. Rioters who lingered on the street after that final warning could be engaged by LE at any level up to and including the use of deadly force, with no further announcement.

    This was, in prior more civilized times, a basic understanding of all citizens living under the Rule of Law. This is why a police officer’s standard-issue pump shotgun was traditionally referred to as a “riot gun” long before the development of modern less-than-lethal munitions. This is also why arson riots were uncommon and short-lived. Everyone understood the ground rules. There was no right to burn, loot or murder.

    Thomas Sowell put it this way: “If you are not prepared to use force to defend civilization, then be prepared to accept barbarism.” Note that he did not say “the government” or “the police department.” He said YOU.

    ABR, my own acronym for the current working coalition of Antifa, BLM and the Revolutionary Communist Party of the U.S.,  are now routinely using Molotov cocktails (gasoline bombs) and other incendiary/explosive devices as offensive weapons in both an anti-personnel and anti-property (arson) role. As far as the BATFE is concerned, a Molotov cocktail is an illegal explosive device, and so are powerful high-altitude fireworks, when they are deployed at ground level as anti-personnel and anti-property explosive/incendiary grenades.

    ABR deliberately uses the anonymity of their black-clad and face-masked mobs to conceal the identity of their individual bomb throwers, in exactly the same way that 19th Century Ku Klux Klan night riders carrying torches on arson missions concealed their identities with white robes and hoods. There is no moral or ethical requirement for either police or ordinary citizens protecting their communities from violent mobs to identify and ferret out the individual bomb throwers, when the rest of the mob is intentionally surrounding them in order to shield them from that identification. Because of the deliberately created synergy of bomb throwers utilizing the anonymity of the mob, the entire ABR mob becomes a legitimate target for police arrest or armed community self-defense.

    Furthermore, at this writing in September of 2020, there is no moral or ethical requirement for a law-abiding American citizen to wait for a lit Molotov cocktail or any other incendiary or explosive device to crash through the window of their home or business, while ABR mobs are rampaging through the streets conducting arson attacks. Once the fires begin, morally and ethically, the same Rules for the Use of Force (RUF) should apply that would attach to a lynch mob, or to Ku Klux Klan night riders on their way to burn homes or businesses. Both KKK night riders bearing torches in olden times, and violent mobs of ABR terrorists with Molotov cocktails and other incendiary devices today, can and should be engaged by armed citizens with any necessary level of force required to halt their terroristic depredations.

    In numerous recent cases, law enforcement under Leftist political control has repeatedly abdicated its traditional and expected role in breaking up violent riots and preventing arson and other terror attacks. Week by week, the level of ABR violence has been steadily escalating, and it’s logical to assume that it will only worsen as the hotly-contested presidential election draws near.

    So let me be very clear: if Democrat Party governors, mayors and DAs have hamstrung their police for political reasons, and won’t allow them to protect the lives and property of their local citizens using all required force, abandoning their primary mission in order to bow to the ABR mob, then it is time for their undefended citizens to apply the clear intent of the Second Amendment. There should be deep regret about the abandonment of the Rule of Law by the Democrat Party political ruling class, but there should be no moral quibbles or hesitation by American citizens concerning the legitimacy of armed community self defense, in the absence of expected law enforcement protection.

    Therefore, it is my carefully considered opinion that black-clad and masked ABR mobs, rampaging and terrorizing innocent citizens under the cover of darkness in the style of the KKK of old, may morally and ethically be taken under preemptive fire by armed citizens at any level necessary to drive them out of their peaceful neighborhoods and away from their businesses, before the terrorists can reach their targets and throw their Molotov cocktails and other explosive and incendiary devices.

    As an historical note, it should be understood that the National Rifle Association was founded after the last American Civil War by former Union Army officers, (and Republicans at that), in order to empower freed African-American former slaves to defend themselves with firearms against KKK night raids. In the 19th Century, the Democrat Party, then allied with the Klan, (as the Democrats of today are aligned with Antifa and BLM), had favored strict gun control, in the form of narrowly written laws restricting the legal ownership of firearms by free black citizens.

    The more things change…the more they stay the same.

    A well-regulated Militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms shall not be infringed.”

    For emphasis: in American law possessing a Molotov cocktail is a felony and throwing one at people or at an occupied building is a life-threatening assault. Using lethal force to stop that attack is justified under the law.

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  • Fri, Sep 11, 2020 - 11:29am

    agitating prop

    agitating prop

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    agitating prop said:

     

    Grover,

    It's a big who's who, right?

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  • Fri, Sep 11, 2020 - 11:32am

    Mpup

    Mpup

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    Part of the reason our country is in such turmoil

    https://thefederalist.com/2020/09/04/this-virginia-university-offers-course-on-how-to-overthrow-the-state-and-write-your-own-manifesto/    Also note related articles at the same site.  "Universities" have become breeding grounds for the leftist/socialist/Marxist agenda.

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  • Fri, Sep 11, 2020 - 11:35am

    agitating prop

    agitating prop

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    thcO655

    You have to ask yourself, who, just before an election, benefits from rioting? Is it the semi senile cream puff on the left or the right wing "law and order" nut job on the right?

    Rioting is awful.. It's scary. I wouldn't want to be anywhere near it. But...it can also be a manufactured scenario where different groups are infiltrated and then manipulated. This isn't purely a 'law and order' story. There is so much more going on and it revolves largely around social media.

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  • Fri, Sep 11, 2020 - 11:42am

    agitating prop

    agitating prop

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    agitating prop said:

    CJ Sloan,

    Thanks for that. Most of the left where I live are against cancel culture and baffled by identity politics. A few of my left leaning friends have drunk the kool-aid and are now right wing extremists, due to the rioting in the U.S. Who benefits?

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  • Fri, Sep 11, 2020 - 12:05pm

    000

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    Let loose the hounds

    I believe umbrella may can be found taking lunch at the nearest Fusion Center.

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  • Fri, Sep 11, 2020 - 12:37pm

    stevedaly

    stevedaly

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    UmbrellaMan

    "police say ...."

    What the Heck?  Name of police source and badge number?  In our house we cut cable and use YouTube. Its 24-hr made up AI select stories about our president and social injustice.  You expect me to believe "police say"?  I just can't make myself believe....

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  • Fri, Sep 11, 2020 - 1:02pm

    agitating prop

    agitating prop

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    3

    Chris Hedges--Sounds like Chris and Adam

     

    Gaslighted by the Ruling Class

    "The public displays of solidarity are, as in the past, smoke and mirrors, a pantomime of faux anguish and empathy by bankrupt ruling elites, including most Black politicians groomed by the Democratic Party and out of touch with the daily humiliation, stress of economic misery and suffering that defines the lives of many of the protesters.

    These elites have no intention of instituting anything more than cosmetic change. They refuse to ask the questions that matter because they do not want to hear the answers. They are systems managers. They use these symbolic gestures to gaslight the public and leave our failed democracy, from which they and their corporate benefactors benefit, untouched. What we are watching in this outpouring of televised solidarity with the victims of police violence is an example of what Bertram Gross calls “friendly fascism,” the “nice-guy mask” used to disguise the despotism of the ultra-rich and our corporate overseers. Whatever you think about Donald Trump, he is at least open about his racism, lust for state violence and commitment to white supremacy."

    Chris Hedges: Gaslighted by the Ruling Class

    Chris Hedges bio:

    Christopher Lynn Hedges (born September 18, 1956) is an American Pulitzer Prize-winning journalist, Presbyterian minister, New York Times best selling author and television host. ... Hedges spent nearly two decades as a foreign correspondent in Central America, West Asia, Africa, the Middle East, and the Balkans.

     

     

     

     

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  • Fri, Sep 11, 2020 - 1:11pm

    agitating prop

    agitating prop

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    Steve Daly

    Ahhh, yes youtube as the voice of reason, where google feeds you stories that appeal to your interests, creating a perfect echo chamber. And the "deep state" in a surveillance state wouldn't be onto that and be using it to their own maximum advantage, too? Because why? The "deep state" supports the wealthy on both sides of the divide and it is a wonder to me that people haven't figured this out and allow their outrage to be deflected....over and over and over.

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  • Fri, Sep 11, 2020 - 1:16pm

    agitating prop

    agitating prop

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    video of umbrella man

    My attendant response to the video was "it's a big who's who."  In other words, watch the video., but don't necessarily believe or disbelieve. That's religion. Capiche?

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  • Fri, Sep 11, 2020 - 1:19pm

    kunga

    kunga

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    11

    Oregon wildfires

    Having a really bad day: needing to evacuate ahead of the flames.

    Having a really, really bad day: needing to evacuate north to the Portland Convention Center.

    I was in contact with Suzie Gruber from this board.  She is in Ashland, Oregon, with her car packed up.  Many of these fires are arson caused, so no telling who will be in the path, next.  Praying for all.

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  • Fri, Sep 11, 2020 - 2:56pm

    stevedaly

    stevedaly

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    Kunga

    Our neighborhood was spared a fire about 8 years ago.  Some thought it had to be God's blessing.  Will pray for you.

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  • Fri, Sep 11, 2020 - 3:25pm

    Oliveoilguy

    Status: Gold Member

    Joined: Jun 29 2012

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    3

    Kunga

    You are in my thoughts and prayers and Susie as well. Any info and updates you can post is appreciated...Surprised and saddened to hear some of these fires are deliberately set.

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  • Fri, Sep 11, 2020 - 3:40pm

    thc0655

    Status: Platinum Member

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    3

    Arson fires in Oregon?

    Wait! I thought the world was catching fire because of global warming.

    Good luck to all of you regardless of the cause.

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  • Fri, Sep 11, 2020 - 3:50pm

    stevedaly

    stevedaly

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    Deliberately Set?

    Rural Oregon people suffering now.

    https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2020/09/pure-evil-portland-dentist-warns-followers-antifa-committing-fire-terrorism-oregon/

    "They are setting fires."

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  • Fri, Sep 11, 2020 - 4:58pm

    kunga

    kunga

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    More to go

    We have been having too hot weather and high winds all summer in Oregon.  Weeks to go yet.  The pioneer spirit is still strong, here.  Horrible to get burned up in a fire.  Couple was rescued after 18 hours taking refuge in a river, ran from home at 4am.

    In the small, poor communities of Phoenix and Talent along I-5, north of Ashland,  Mexican farm workers raced home, some to rescue their kids, some did not make it.

    Thank you for prayers.

    Big fires, wind driven out of the Cascades, heading for large cities along I-5. Coincidence?  Portland, Salem, Roseburg, Ashland, all at risk.

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  • Fri, Sep 11, 2020 - 6:03pm

    Chris Martenson

    Chris Martenson

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    Joined: Jun 07 2007

    Posts: 5437

    3

    Kunga - Be Safe!

    Kunga - please be safe, and let us know how Suzie is doing?

    The fire sound truly horrible and I'd be frantic with worry if I had to evacuate.  What would we do with our cows and chickens?  The pigs?  What do we bring and what do we leave behind?  I know my cats would hate every minute of the evac.

    So sorry for everyone going through this, and I sincerely hope that the fires have not been intentionally set.  Beyond those set by gender reveal parties I mean.  Grrrrr...

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  • Fri, Sep 11, 2020 - 6:12pm

    Adam Taggart

    Status: Platinum Member

    Joined: May 25 2009

    Posts: 6437

    4

    Suzie is OK

    Quick update on Suzie: she’s OK and hasn’t had to evacuate (yet).

    But internet is down in her area, which explains why we haven’t heard from her on the site.

    Thanks for all the concern & support from the PP community!

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  • Fri, Sep 11, 2020 - 6:37pm

    dtrammel

    Status: Silver Member

    Joined: May 03 2011

    Posts: 806

    4

    No Antifa Is Not Setting Fires

    Unless you think the Oregon police are corrupt and left leaning to cover up their involvement. Come on, stop blaming Atifa for everything.

    https://theintercept.com/2020/09/10/oregon-police-beg-public-stop-calling-false-reports-blaming-antifa-wildfires/

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  • Fri, Sep 11, 2020 - 6:54pm

    000

    Status: Bronze Member

    Joined: Dec 10 2013

    Posts: 247

    0

    The theology of police authority: the impact of Romans 13

    What the hell, I'll just add this here for any Stalinists still interested. Where are the Mensheviks?

    The theology of police authority: the impact of Romans 13

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  • Fri, Sep 11, 2020 - 7:59pm

    Oliveoilguy

    Status: Gold Member

    Joined: Jun 29 2012

    Posts: 853

    2

    Arson Suspected in Ashland fire

    Arson investigators have opened a probe into the suspicious origins of a deadly Oregon wildfire that began in the town of Ashland and destroyed hundreds of homes in nearby communities, Ashland’s police chief said on Thursday.

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  • Fri, Sep 11, 2020 - 8:16pm

    suziegruber

    suziegruber

    Status: Bronze Member

    Joined: Dec 03 2008

    Posts: 203

    7

    Yes, I am okay

    Hi everyone,
    Thanks for your concern.  I am safe at home with my car packed and no immediate threat nearby, although it's very smoky.

    Ashland got very lucky on Tuesday.  Winds out of the southeast drove the fire to the northwest away from Ashland and towards Talent and Phoenix, two small towns that are now devastated.  There are 600 homes lost and 50 people missing.  There were never any Level 3 Go evacuation orders in Ashland.  They put all of Jackson County under a Level 1 Be Ready order because of the warm east winds blowing Tuesday & Wednesday.  The origin point of the fire is now a criminal investigation because they found someone dead nearby.

    This has been a very useful test for my preps.  My internet went down on Tuesday because the central office for Spectrum burned to the ground taking all of their internet, cable & phone service with it. Do not get internet-based cell phone or home phone service if you want redundancy.  We need communication options across multiple systems in the hopes that at least one stays up.  My biggest challenge was getting real information about what was happening. I can't get over the air TV because of where my house is located and our local radio was  mostly pathetic in staying on top of what was going on.

    I resorted to an Android app called Scanner Radio Pro that I used to listen to Jackson County Police and Fire.  Listening to this was extraordinarily helpful.  I could get a real sense of what was happening rather than just what we were hearing in the media.  There were several times while I was listening that there were reports of people with open flames in the Bear Creek Greenway where the fire started and traveled north.  I will say that I was dependent on cell service to listen so I am considering getting a portable scanner.  I will keep listening to this occasionally even after things settle down because I am able to get a real look at the underbelly of our area.

    I know this has been said many times but I can't stress more the importance of having a concrete evacuation plan.  The fire started around 11am on Tuesday, shutting down Interstate 5 immediately.  That meant that until 4:30pm that day, they routed all of the northbound I5 traffic through downtown Ashland, big rigs and all until they shut down I5 at the California border. The whole scenario left one and maybe two routes out of town for 20,000 people.  If we had needed to evacuate, it would have been an utterly disastrous event.  From that I made the firm decision that if we ever get to a level 2 Get Set, I am leaving.  I will not wait until we are told to leave.  Please, please, please if you live in an area prone to fire, assess this sort of thing for yourself.

    My original evacuation plan was to head to my friend's house in Medford which in general should be safe because it's away from the forests.  However, the particular path of this fire led to the evacuation of her house, so always have a plan A, B & C.

    If you know anyone affected by the fires or any other disaster, here's a resource my colleagues and I created in response to the Sonoma County fires that happened in 2017.  It helps with the emotional side of experiences like these.

    Also, for anyone with a little extra, here's a link to donate to the Southern Oregon Fire Relief effort.  Our local credit union is matching donations up to $50,000.

    Thank you so much for your concern and for all of the teachings on this site.  Although I feel tired and very sad about what happened to our community, I feel grateful for my deep resilience.

    Hugs,
    Suzie

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  • Fri, Sep 11, 2020 - 9:52pm

    stevedaly

    stevedaly

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    Joined: Apr 23 2020

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    1

    Trammel, I'm not blaming Antifa. She is.

    Here's the dentist's twitter link:

    Part of her statement is: "Our town is fighting to save our property.  If you do not believe in the Antifa thing listen to me now.  They’re in our communities now.  They are setting fires. Our friends are finding camps.  Our friends are catching them and they are setting fires."

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  • Fri, Sep 11, 2020 - 10:15pm

    dtrammel

    Status: Silver Member

    Joined: May 03 2011

    Posts: 806

    2

    Too Many People Are Steve

    From your post title and the fact you linked to Gateway Pundit, it was hard for me not to take away that you were blaming Antifa. Too many people are and now you have locals out with guns threatening photo journalists covering the fire. See the end of my earlier link and this newer link.

    https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/christopherm51/oregon-fires-antifa-rumors?

    If that was not your intention, my mistake and you have my apology. Too many people though are doing just that, blaming Antifa for everything under the Sun now. I wish more people would take a minute or two to do a simple google search and see if the assumptions that they are about to post, are true or wild speculation.

    Kunga, Suzi and anyone else in danger, please stay safe.

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  • Sat, Sep 12, 2020 - 12:14am

    davefairtex

    Status: Member

    Joined: Sep 03 2008

    Posts: 2251

    6

    connecting the dots

    dtrammel-

    Well so here's the thing.  Antifa has been photographed setting a lot of fires over the past 3 months.  Then, suddenly, there are a whole lot of fires that are happening in regions that (shall we say) don't really support the whole Antifa campaign.

    So perhaps Antifa did set them, and perhaps they didn't.  But, if your Antifa group's MO clearly includes setting fires, and then a whole lot of fires suddenly appear in areas that are more or less anti-Antifa areas, you can't really blame fire victims for imagining that this group of fire-setters - that also don't like them much - are responsible for setting this new batch of fires.

    After all, in marxist-land, "anti-revolutionaries" (Nazis, etc) more or less deserve whatever fate is coming to them.

    Last point.  Normal people connect dots.  Its a human thing to do.  Probably some pro-survival thing developed way back on the plains of Africa.

    And - just maybe - Antifa really is setting them.  "Because that's what they do - they set fires."

     

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  • Sat, Sep 12, 2020 - 1:37am

    davefairtex

    Status: Member

    Joined: Sep 03 2008

    Posts: 2251

    5

    Antifa/BLM - the great Trump plot?

    I get the sense that some people - shoe fits = you may wear it - think that this whole Antifa thing is a secret plot by Trump to enable him to say "Law and Order" and get the suburban women vote.

    If this were true, then it would have been a very simple matter - 12 weeks ago - for the Democratic establishment to to get the state & local law enforcement (which they control) to come down like a ton of bricks on just the rioters.  National guard, state police, local police - they could make this Antifa thing go away in an afternoon, if they really thought it was truly a Big Trump Plot.  They could even get CNN not to cover it and/or pretend that "just a few bad apples" and/or "Trump-supported agitators" were arrested for trying to make the peaceful protests look bad.

    There are lots of ways for them to shut this down, and look good doing it.

    Once the national guard appears, the Antifa/BLM bullies flee in panic, and/or they are arrested to face charges (suddenly there are no friendly prosecutors that allow them to walk), and the problem is over. We saw this in Kenosha.  The recipe is pretty simple.

    And yet - for "some reason", local politicians have mostly decided not to follow the recipe.  Even though they totally have the power to do so.

    I mean, I think they're idiots; they were probably hoping to goad Trump into a Kent State event with Federal troops, and/or for Trump to send in the Army to try and occupy the cities, which would make him look like a Nazi.  Trump didn't fall for it, and now they appear to be stuck with the "coddling the rioters" policy, while ordering CNN not to cover it.

    And if these people are the team you would prefer to support - I'm sure it sucks, it is a really stupid policy, it does play right into Trump's hands, and you don't want to believe that your gang is really that idiotic, and so you are trying hard to look for some other explanation.  It has to be Trump's 12-D chess in some crazy way.

    Problem is, stopping the riots has a simple recipe.  Everyone knows what it is.  They aren't following it.  I've explained how they could even LOOK GOOD following it and get that suburban female vote.  There is no explanation for this, other than this whole thing was a deliberate strategy.

    Why do they keep not-following the recipe?

    Just perhaps they need to keep the Antifa/BLM group on the board as part of a contingency plan if Biden ends up losing the election.  Antifa/BLM riots might be able to keep things "confused" in enough battleground states long enough for Pelosi to roll into the White House on January 20th. If they use the anti-riot recipe, Antifa/BLM will be taken off the board, and then there is no contingency plan if Trump ends up winning.

    So if Antifa/BLM were a key part of an "insurance policy" against an actual electoral defeat in November, then that would explain everything.

    Do you have an alternative explanation as to why the mayors and governors aren't using "the recipe" (and looking good while doing it) to take Antifa/BLM off the board?  "We are just removing the Trump-Nazi agitators from among the legitimate peaceful protesters."  It really would be easy to do.

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  • Sat, Sep 12, 2020 - 8:24am

    Grover

    Grover

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    Joined: Feb 15 2011

    Posts: 795

    4

    WILL Get Fooled Again (and again)

    agitating prop,

    You really didn't answer my question. Why do the locals who elected the officials who allow this to occur still support the official actions? I suppose that many of them are feeling anxious and questioning the tactics ... but won't support anyone who isn't on the Blue Team. That's the conclusion I draw from what I've seen. I was hoping to have my disillusion dispelled.

    As far as false flags, that happens. It is just as illegal (perhaps more so) than if any citizen did the same. "Umbrella Man" should be brought to justice. We have many examples of false flags being flown by people in government. Why? To galvanize support for unwarranted actions. Yet, people somehow fall for the scam and then resist (or shut down) when others point out the scam. Yesterday was the 19th anniversary of a very devastating false flag (9/11/2001.) We'll continue to pay the price until the perpetrators are brought to justice.

    When I see nightly riots erupting in the same cities, I have to wonder what the officials are thinking? Are they hapless and overwhelmed? Are they using the riots for ulterior motives - big payoff if Biden gets elected? Something else? Why do locals still support these actions? I just don't get it.

    Grover

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  • Sat, Sep 12, 2020 - 9:29am

    thc0655

    Status: Platinum Member

    Joined: Apr 27 2010

    Posts: 2130

    3

    I guess the fires don’t have passports to get to Canada

    https://gab.com/Mestra/posts/104847614854497279

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  • Sat, Sep 12, 2020 - 10:07am

    VTGothic

    VTGothic

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    Joined: Jan 05 2020

    Posts: 333

    3

    Blaze Passports?

    ...or, the map maker is only reporting US fires.

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  • Sat, Sep 12, 2020 - 10:52am

    agitating prop

    agitating prop

    Status: Silver Member

    Joined: May 28 2009

    Posts: 493

    5

    Connecting the dots.

    Dot connecting can be a valuable exercise--but is very difficult to do when you are marinating in propaganda--and that is all of us---all the time now.

    The very 'best' dot connectors have paranoid schizophrenia. They tend to over interpret and catagorize too broadly because they are mentally ill. Then there is the folie a deux effect of like minded individuals mobbing up around a false idea and egging each other on. The witch hunts were a good example of that.

    The best environment to connect dots is one where emotions are very calm, in an atmosphere unpolluted by propaganda. It should also be a more or less solitary venture where the "egging on" effect is absent.

    Because fires have been set in Portland, doesn't mean forest fires starting in the super dry, super hot parts of the state were started by anti-fascists. Arsonists? That's possible for some of the fires. No need to put a political spin on it.

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  • Sat, Sep 12, 2020 - 11:07am

    Quercus bicolor

    Status: Silver Member

    Joined: Mar 19 2008

    Posts: 445

    0

    That image is US fires only

    Here's Canada:

    https://www.ciffc.ca/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=59&Itemid=129

    And a screen grab from today, September 12:

    This was the most obvious explanation.  We really need to stay out of our foxholes and be willing to see something other than what we want to see.

    There are obviously more fires in the U.S. we can debate whether arson explains some of that or whether differences in fire conditions (higher fire danger in U.S.) and more accidental fires do to a more dense and possibly less careful population explain the entire difference.

    Of course, by far the most supportive evidence will be clear evidence of arson with clear links to a suspect and a motive.

    The dentist in the video above may be write, or she might be subject to seeing what she wants to see (along with her friends) in a highly polarized environment.  Time will (hopefully) tell.

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  • Sat, Sep 12, 2020 - 11:09am

    Ision

    Ision

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    1

    Ision said:

    No.  I have the same information from a global system, which reports all wildfires on Earth.   The ONLY Nations being consumed by wildfires ON EARTH right now is the U.S. and Australia.   But, by FAR the U.S. is absolutely consumed with them, which can only be by ARSON terrorist efforts.

    HMMMMM....  Maybe this reporting application is NOT reporting Canada, but reports the other countries?  I wonder why this is?  Here is Australia from the same reporting service:

    U.S. Wildfires TODAY active

    Current wildfires in the U.S.,which pay attention to our National borders.

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  • Sat, Sep 12, 2020 - 11:30am

    Quercus bicolor

    Status: Silver Member

    Joined: Mar 19 2008

    Posts: 445

    4

    Huh?

    Ision,

    I present today's real-time active forest fire map from the Canadian Interagency Forest Fire Center that clearly shows active fires in Canada including 5 out of control fires in southern BC, 4 within about 100 miles of the border.

    Note: I didn't see that Ision's post #274 was only 2 minutes after my post #273.  Ision had not seen post #273 before posting #274.  I'm leaving this post as is other than this added note to remind myself that I too jumped to conclusions.

    Then you show another map which you claim shows all forest fires on earth that includes zero fires in Canada and claim that:

    1. Your map is the correct one - which implies those fires on the map I found are fake.
    2. That arson and terrorism are clearly the only possible explanation for all of the fires in the US.  Let's not even ask if fire danger is significantly higher in the US.  Let's not even look at the possibility that denser and less careful population could play a role as well.  Not to mention the possibility of more lightning in the US (this true at least in a climatological sense, although I don't know about the past week).  I don't know whether any of these other explanations are valid, but you imply they're not even worth looking at?

    Please explain your reasoning.

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  • Sat, Sep 12, 2020 - 11:56am

    Ision

    Ision

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    Joined: Feb 07 2020

    Posts: 125

    1

    Ision said:

    I never read your post prior to placing mine.  So, my post does not address yours, until I edited it and added the image of Australian wildfires from the same reporting system.  This system shows the entire globe and its primary purpose is weather, but features reporting on earthquakes and wildfires, too.

    I had no reason to think this service was not reporting Canadian information, as it was reporting so many other countries.

    Clearly, my system is NOT reporting Canadian information, without informing me of this fact, and this created an obvious anomaly of fires heeding borders.  I assumed Canada's fires were reported by the system and this led to a false conclusion.

    I then edited my comment, once I noticed you map of Canadian fires.

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  • Sat, Sep 12, 2020 - 12:07pm

    westcoastjan

    westcoastjan

    Status: Silver Member

    Joined: Jun 04 2012

    Posts: 500

    5

    BC forest fire data

    I can assure you we are having our forest fire problems here as well, but not to the extent that is happening in Washington and Oregon. Fingers crossed it does not change for the worse. There are a large quantity of smaller fires burning here on the Island. Too many human caused, typically by discarded cigarettes and sparks from ATVs or equipment.

    https://governmentofbc.maps.arcgis.com/apps/opsdashboard/index.html#/f0ac328d88c74d07aa2ee385abe2a41b

    Here in Victoria we have terribly smoky skies, grey and glowing with the sun trying to push through. Air quality is bad sending people indoors. The temperature has plummeted. This smoke is largely attributed to the smoke from the fires in NW USA blowing our way. I have not seen it this bad here before...

    We are in drought conditions with extreme fire risk. As Suzie mentioned, for those who are potentially threatened it is wise to have the evacuation plans ready and preps reviewed for readiness. I am fine where I am from the fire perspective. One thing I acquired a few years ago for communication is a satellite based GPS device for sending status messages in emergencies. There are far more advanced models than mine now. This is a great tool to have in everyone's emergency prep toolbox: https://www.findmespot.com/en-ca/

    It is so sad and horrifying to watch all the riots, protests, violence and fires from afar. It leaves me speechless at times.... Stay safe everyone! Good luck Suzie and Kunga, and anyone else who is close to danger zones.

    Jan

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  • Sat, Sep 12, 2020 - 12:25pm

    davefairtex

    Status: Member

    Joined: Sep 03 2008

    Posts: 2251

    3

    happenstance, coincidence

    Because fires have been set in Portland, doesn't mean forest fires starting in the super dry, super hot parts of the state were started by anti-fascists. Arsonists? That's possible for some of the fires. No need to put a political spin on it.

    Sure, its possible that the arsonist-Antifa group had nothing to do with this rash of fires, all springing up right after that Antifa murder suspect was killed by police while resisting arrest.  One fire might be happenstance, a second fire might be coincidence.

    But as we know, three fires = enemy action.

     

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  • Sat, Sep 12, 2020 - 12:30pm

    Quercus bicolor

    Status: Silver Member

    Joined: Mar 19 2008

    Posts: 445

    0

    Quercus bicolor said:

    Sorry about my intensity there.  I should have noticed your post was only two minutes before mine.  I'll retract it.

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  • Sat, Sep 12, 2020 - 1:14pm

    agitating prop

    agitating prop

    Status: Silver Member

    Joined: May 28 2009

    Posts: 493

    2

    To Grover--No, Portlanders don't Support

    "My real question is why do the people who voted for these authorities accept this behavior? Politicians always want to see that they still have support for their actions. After all, if they lose the support of their base, they won't get reelected. That tells me that their base still supports these actions."  Grover

    From the Oregonian:

    "A new poll shows a majority of Portland voters support a November ballot measure to create a new community-driven police oversight system, believe there is a systemic problem in the city’s policing system and have an “unfavorable” impression of Mayor Ted Wheeler and the police union that represents the majority of city officers."

    https://www.oregonlive.com/politics/2020/09/nearly-2-in-3-portland-voters-view-mayor-ted-wheeler-unfavorably-even-more-favor-new-police-oversight-system-poll-shows.html

    Sorry, it's not from Twitter, Facebook, or Youtube, but this will have to suffice. Hope that meets standards.

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  • Sat, Sep 12, 2020 - 1:19pm

    agitating prop

    agitating prop

    Status: Silver Member

    Joined: May 28 2009

    Posts: 493

    0

    Quercus,

    Hey, unless you popped an artery, that we don't know about, you seem perfectly calm!

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  • Sat, Sep 12, 2020 - 1:53pm

    DennisC

    DennisC

    Status: Bronze Member

    Joined: Mar 19 2011

    Posts: 195

    4

    The Great Wall of Canada

    I first thought that this might be an explanation.  It's not an official version (i.e. no French captions for the English dialogue) so I hope it doesn't cause concern for the members in the western provinces (that's a joke, OK?).

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  • Sat, Sep 12, 2020 - 3:06pm

    2retired

    2retired

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    Joined: Jul 20 2020

    Posts: 86

    4

    2retired said:

    In BC we are (also) ripe for a devastating fire as the amount of fuel on the forest floor is staggering; around 1600AD a fire consumed everything on the east side of Vancouver  Island from the height of land to seawater, from Campbell river to Victoria; They presumed this from charcoal pits all of the same age (up and down the coast) and forest growth all dating to the same time. I have a piece of old growth fir (I know its history and origin) that shows a 6 fold variation in growth rates over 800 years (tree rings 90/inch to 16/inch) near the outside of a tree that was greater than 6 ft in diameter (greater than 2-3000 years old) when it was felled.

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  • Sat, Sep 12, 2020 - 7:54pm

    Oliveoilguy

    Status: Gold Member

    Joined: Jun 29 2012

    Posts: 853

    6

    Oregon Wildfires “Mostly Peaceful”

    Posted by Kristin Morris on Facebook:

    As much as I enjoy having people who neither live in this state nor have probably ever visited try to educate me on the place I have called home for more than 25 years... I feel compelled to share the latest faces of arson- oops! Did I say arson?? I meant “climate change”. These charming individuals just managed to speed the process up a little I guess...

    Borrowed from another page:

    “As wildfires scorch millions of acres in our region, we thank Oregon law enforcement for apprehending these arsonists. These are the facts and cannot be disputed.

    First pic From left:

    Jett Thomas, 36, has been arrested in Portland & charged w/1st-degree felony arson, felony unlawful use of a weapon, 2 counts of felony criminal mischief & more. Law enforcement says Thomas tried to set a NW Portland hotel gas pipe on fire.

    Elias Newton Pendergrass, 44, was arrested on first degree arson in a wildfire that burned almost 400 acres, and caused evacuations west of Eugene.

    Michael Jarrod Bakkela, 41, was charged with two counts of arson, along with 15 counts of criminal mischief and 14 counts of reckless endangering for allegedly setting a fire in southern Oregon.

    1. Why did the violent riots stop in downtown Portland the exact night the fires started?
    2. Why do the fires in Washington state stop at the Canadian border? (Google map it for yourself)
    3. Why has the Oregon State Fire Marshal been put in leave today? Then resigned right after?
    4. Why has a Clackamas County Deputy been put on leave for speaking up specifically against Antifa arsonists?
    5. Why does the media so obviously go overboard with the narrative of “nothing to see here”, when the Police scanner is one call after another regarding suspicious cars, people and activity specifically for arson?

    Start asking questions. Start listening to the facts.”

    My edit:
    The last two lookers were arrested last night in my county, Clackamas county- the one that has been under threat for several days now. There IS blatant arson. There IS looting. There IS suspicious and criminal behavior happening all around us right now, and my friends and I are not going anywhere!
    From someone who is living in the middle of this, I can tell you that our Governor and the news is LYING TO YOU about what is going on out here!!

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  • Sat, Sep 12, 2020 - 9:01pm

    Lisa Mooney

    Lisa Mooney

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    Joined: Jan 25 2020

    Posts: 23

    5

    Oregon Fires and AQI

    Regardless of the origin of these fires I have lived in California for 20 years and Oregon for 5 years of my childhood and the last 3 as an adult. I have never seen anything like this . I live in Salem and the AQI is hovering between 200 - 500. I wonder how this will affect COVID 19 severity not to mention premature deaths from worsening of chronic heart and lung conditions. Like many states in the US there is a great deal of poverty here and my heart breaks for those many that do not have  HVAC systems or the ability to create 1 clean room. I am a triage nurse at Kaiser and luckily I work from home, but so many essential workers have to be out in this air or even stuck in a car commuting breathing this toxic air. The issues we face all seem to be accelerating and coming to a head. I am starting to think moving to Iceland might be the only sane decision left to make , with few areas in the USA spared extreme weather in one form or another. Anyone want to go in on buying acreage and setting up a greenhouse farm in Iceland, 1/2 joking 1/2 serious. For all those in Oregon I agree with Suzi, if on a Level 2 evacuation order that is the time to leave, as we learned with the Paradise fire, they spread much faster and deadlier the last few years then even seasoned firefighters have ever witnessed. Stay safe all and get a good quality air filter  to create a clean room now if you can IQ Air is the brand I recommend. Don’t forget Anti Oxidants and Liver support to help the system detox these PM 2.5  toxins. I use Liv on Labs liposomal Vitamin C and Glutathione. Lisa

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  • Sat, Sep 12, 2020 - 11:43pm

    davefairtex

    Status: Member

    Joined: Sep 03 2008

    Posts: 2251

    7

    sheriff tweet: fireworks started brush fire

    https://twitter.com/MultCoSO/status/1304577271429099520

    We are at a loss for words. Deputies & @Corbett_Fire responded to a small brush fire in the 1700 block of NE Brower Rd in Corbett at 3:52pm. Neighbors heard pops and saw 6ft flames in the forest. Using a shovel and water, they were able to put it out. Deputies found fireworks...

    The fireworks were placed about 100-150 yards off the road. Deputies are conducting high visibility patrols in rural Multnomah County. @Corbett_Fire
    will remain in the area. If you have any information on this, call the non-emergency line. If you see an active fire, call 911.

    https://twitter.com/MultCoSO

    While the FBI may have investigated several fires and found them to be non-suspicious, clearly at least one was caused by fireworks.

    Factoid: SAIC Cannon, who runs the Portland FBI office, was put in place by Comey in November 2016.  Immediately prior to this, he had worked as the section chief of the Leadership Development Program in the Human Resources Branch at FBI HQ in Washington.

    https://www.fbi.gov/news/pressrel/press-releases/loren-renn-cannon-named-special-agent-in-charge-of-the-portland-division

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  • Sun, Sep 13, 2020 - 4:16am

    thc0655

    Status: Platinum Member

    Joined: Apr 27 2010

    Posts: 2130

    8

    Allow me to summarize:

    The protests are mostly peaceful. The fires are mostly naturally occurring. Policies re: forest management are mostly effective. It is racist to suspect Antifa/BLM of setting any fires (outside the city limits of Portland and Seattle). The best thing citizens can do is hunker down where they can and evacuate where they must. Let the professionals fight fires after they get started and let the professional investigators figure out how hundreds of fires started without speculating yourself. It would be racist for citizens to patrol their local wooded areas for arsonists and it would be super racist to do so while carrying a gun. You’d be literally Hitler for calling the police to come investigate people you see for possibly setting fires or being equipped to do so. That would also be racial profiling, even if the suspects are white (though who can tell when they’re wearing all black including gloves, hoodies and masks). Wait for the Gates/Fauci vaccine. Vote Harris/Biden 2020, as often as possible.

    We’re all in this together!

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  • Sun, Sep 13, 2020 - 4:41am

    davefairtex

    Status: Member

    Joined: Sep 03 2008

    Posts: 2251

    7

    something came to me

    There probably aren't all that many people sociopathic (or - programmed?) thoroughly enough to be in the core Antifa/BLM teams.  This is why it is a critical part of the plan for friendly prosecutors to let them walk.  If a significant number of them are arrested and are forced to stay in prison awaiting trial, pretty soon, bad things stop happening.

    Notice: when it became a federal 10-years-in-prison crime to topple a statue, the statue-toppling stopped almost immediately.

    Notice too: they had to bus Antifa from Oregon to Kenosha.  If it were a big group, they could ship them in from within the state, or closer nearby.

    My guess #1: the core group is just a few hundred people.

    My guess #2: if they are taken off the board, most likely, the problems go away.

    That's the good news.

    The bad news is, the FBI is probably having a hard time doing this, since some chunk of the current mid-level FBI leadership are - again my guess - still executing on the same "insurance policy" that Strzok & Page were working on back in 2016.

    SAIC Portland was a Comey appointee that was dropped into place immediately after Trump won the election in 2016.

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  • Sun, Sep 13, 2020 - 4:54am

    Oliveoilguy

    Status: Gold Member

    Joined: Jun 29 2012

    Posts: 853

    10

    Lynnwood Washington Police found power poles cut with chainsaw.

    https://youtu.be/DP_dyBfdnz8

    I have to chuckle at the nerdy looking man being interviewed who says this is “highly unusual....we really don’t see this often” I am paraphrasing but .....here is another person incapable of connecting dots. Did the chains saws do this on their own? Was Paul Bunyan on an acid trip? Let’s at least acknowlege that bad people did this! And who are the bad actors that have been setting fires for the past 100 days? Time to try to connect the dots.  I guess when you are thoroughly programmed by the MSM your mind cannot fully function. Let’s call this new mental disease “Dot Dimentia”.

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  • Sun, Sep 13, 2020 - 5:19am

    Oliveoilguy

    Status: Gold Member

    Joined: Jun 29 2012

    Posts: 853

    7

    Jeffery Accord (BLM ...Antifa history) arrested for arson in WA state

    https://amgreatness.com/2020/09/10/left-wing-agitator-arrested-for-starting-fire-in-washington-suspected-of-starting-two-other-wildfires/

    This guy has a direct link to Ferguson....antifa....illegal firearm possession.....Coincidence?

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  • Sun, Sep 13, 2020 - 10:29pm

    Grover

    Grover

    Status: Gold Member

    Joined: Feb 15 2011

    Posts: 795

    8

    What's the Real Problem?

    agitating prop,

    Thank you for posting those links! I gave you a "thumbs up" for answering me, but not necessarily that I agree with what was posted.

    I was quite excited that the poll showed that the Portland voters were overwhelmingly disgusted with Mayor Ted Wheeler's handling of the affair. (I'm not sure if he was a hopeful idiot or an ideological zealot.) Nonetheless, the situation exploded beyond his ability to contain it. Approximately 2 out of 3 voters think he's doing a bad job. (Yeah, Portland voters!) Then, the survey said that 92% approve of "nonviolent protests" while 67% approve of "these protests" - referring to the nightly riots in Portland. I'm assuming that illegal activities don't bother them.

    Then, I read about Hardesty's plan to supervise the police force with a "community driven police oversight system." Portland voters will vote on the proposal on election day. The proposal is basically a wish list of what should occur. Oh, and it will consume approximately 5% of the Portland Police Force budget which currently equates to $11.5 million. (More taxes.) The plan is to take 18 months to flesh out the plans. There aren't too many specifics; however, the Portland voters who were surveyed approved.

    This essentially would add another layer of bureaucracy to the already overburdened bureaucratic Portland city system. Have you ever seen when another layer of bureaucracy has improved processes? More likely, this will increase investigative times while increasing bureaucratic turf wars. Yet, the Portland voters (who were surveyed) think this is a great idea.

    I was a civil engineer during my working career. As such, we had numerous public projects to engineer and oversee the construction engineering. I've dealt with bureaucratic bullshit again and again. I've never seen where adding another layer of bureaucracy improved the processes or reduced the time to deal with the additional bureaucratic nonsense - NEVER! Bureaucracies have to complicate the issue to promote their own necessity. When they don't, there isn't any reason to fund them.

    When I was assigned to a new project, one of the basic questions I wanted answered was "what was the real purpose of this project?" Identifying the purpose and need went a long way to deciding what options to consider and which to throw away. For dealing with the Portland Police Bureau, it doesn't appear that this question has been answered by anyone. People aren't rushing to an answer as much as rushing away from a problem.

    So, is the problem that there is systemic racism in the police force? By systemic, I mean that it is widespread, acknowledged by leadership, and promoted by same leadership.  If there is racism, is it isolated, yet prevalent? Why can't leadership deal with miscreants within their ranks? Does the union support all members regardless of alleged transgressions? What does a card carrying member have to do to be excommunicated?

    I doubt the PPB or their union leadership is promoting racism. That wouldn't be a supportable situation! If they can't identify and correct individual police member's actions due to State regulations or union realities, what makes anyone think that adding a new bureaucracy will suddenly solve this? There are either State Laws or union requirements that preclude any solution. Adding another layer of bureaucracy won't solve this issue.

    If the problem is that the Police union protects its members from corrections due to racism concerns --- and anti-racism is considered a community standard, then the solution is to get rid of the police union. Reagan did this with the air traffic controllers' union. If the union can't be declared illegal, just wait until the contract expires and then don't renew it. I believe the union would willingly throw miscreants under the bus if necessary for them to continue representing (and collecting dues from) the Portland Police Force members.

    I'm also wondering if the Portland Police membership is being treated fairly. I'm not saying that there isn't racism. I'm asking if the whole bureau is being unfairly blamed for the actions of a few. If there is racism, the police officers will treat a 90 year old black woman as badly as a black 20 something year old gangbanger wannabe. Do you really think that happens?

    Put yourself in the police's position. What would you do when stopping a car filled with young men dressed as gangstas. Wouldn't you have your guard up? Wouldn't you be acutely ready to respond at any provocation? I know I certainly would. What if that car filled with gangstas were predominately white? Would it change your readiness? It wouldn't change mine. It's a situational concern rather than a race concern.

    The bottom line for me is that the Portland solution isn't addressing the real problem. They're going to be sorely disappointed when their solution doesn't work. Since they already trust governmental solutions, they'll probably add another layer on top of this layer. Many will wonder why their concerns aren't addressed sooner. Hmmm.

    Are other liberal cities wearing the same shoes?

    Grover

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  • Mon, Sep 14, 2020 - 5:37am

    thc0655

    Status: Platinum Member

    Joined: Apr 27 2010

    Posts: 2130

    5

    Another example of police racism?

    Violent BLM protests have broken out in sleepy Lancaster, PA over a fatal police shooting of a black man. Is it another example of racist police killing of an unarmed black man? You decide. The mob has already made their decision.

    https://6abc.com/man-armed-with-knife-shot-killed-by-officer-in-lancaster-da/6421618/

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  • Mon, Sep 14, 2020 - 7:25am

    davefairtex

    Status: Member

    Joined: Sep 03 2008

    Posts: 2251

    6

    social workers

    Tom.  Clearly they should have sent a social worker, not a cop.  A defunded police department would totally solve this problem.

    Well, until the first half-dozen social workers get stabbed, shot, punched, kicked, or otherwise assaulted by people too high or angry to control themselves.  Then they will all quit.

    Maybe Antifa/BLM would volunteer some of their people to act as "armed social workers."  After all, when a Antifa/BLM activist shoots someone,  by definition it is always justified homicide/self defense/target was a Nazi.

     

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  • Mon, Sep 14, 2020 - 8:59am

    Mary59

    Mary59

    Status: Bronze Member

    Joined: Feb 09 2020

    Posts: 154

    1

    AWESOME Summary

    Thanks for making me laugh- should be crying actually with the state of things. Your ironic message hits center home in my mind anyhow.

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  • Mon, Sep 14, 2020 - 9:03am

    Oliveoilguy

    Status: Gold Member

    Joined: Jun 29 2012

    Posts: 853

    7

    Man arrested then released so that he could start 6 more fires

    Man arrested for starting at least 7 brush fires along I-205

    Domingo Lopez Jr. was arrested Sunday afternoon for allegedly starting 1 fire. He was released and arrested again hours later after police said he started 6 more.

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  • Mon, Sep 14, 2020 - 10:06am

    davefairtex

    Status: Member

    Joined: Sep 03 2008

    Posts: 2251

    8

    rural oregon, polls

    I'm just guessing - voter turnout in rural Oregon might be higher than normal this year.

    Unintended consequences.

    Friend of mine on facebook posted this totally racist picture dating back to the 40s - said "this is what Trump stands for - if you vote for him, this is what you support, and I don't want you as my friend if you support this."  Or words to that effect.

    I realized two things at that moment:

    1) secret ballots are really important.

    2) the polls right now are almost certainly horribly inaccurate.

    More unintended consequences.

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  • Mon, Sep 14, 2020 - 11:54am

    DennisC

    DennisC

    Status: Bronze Member

    Joined: Mar 19 2011

    Posts: 195

    0

    Trap and Release

    Back in the day, our shelter's trap and release program at least made sure every critter had their requisite vaccines, and minor surgery to change the gender assigned at birth (in a matter of speaking, of course), before being released back into the "wild" to continue doing what they naturally do.

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  • Mon, Sep 14, 2020 - 4:44pm

    wotthecurtains

    wotthecurtains

    Status: Bronze Member

    Joined: Feb 27 2020

    Posts: 114

    5

    facebook

    "this is what Trump stands for - if you vote for him, this is what you support, and I don't want you as my friend if you support this."

     

    This is one of many reasons I bailed of FP a long time ago.  I bet if you posted a picture of a KKK group and pointed out that it was a Democratic party affiliated organization your post would be removed as fake news or some such.

     

    But whats even funnier is seeing people lose their shit over their ideas.    I mean, I have opinions about the four year lawfare war the Democrats ran to dislodge a duly elected President by dishonest means, but I dont scream publicly that my friends and family are dead to me if they dont see it my way.

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  • Sun, Sep 20, 2020 - 10:05pm

    2retired

    2retired

    Status: Bronze Member

    Joined: Jul 20 2020

    Posts: 86

    0

    2retired said:

    A news item that will likely be buried on Fox News and definitely not covered elsewhere. It is somewhat less polished than most 'news' but often interesting, and particularly relevant to the urban violence in the US and how it is supported.

    https://www.rebelnews.com/this_is_not_controversial_this_is_not_a_rumor_or_a_conspiracy_theory_george_soros_explained

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  • Mon, Sep 28, 2020 - 4:58pm

    thc0655

    Status: Platinum Member

    Joined: Apr 27 2010

    Posts: 2130

    4

    A lot of social unrest came out of this false narrative

    https://bluelivesmatter.blue/attorney-officer-believed-jacob-blake-was-kidnapping-child-when-he-opened-fire/

    Kenosha, WI – A lawyer for the officer who shot 29-year-old Jacob Blake in August said his client believed at the time that the suspect was trying to kidnap his own children.

    Attorney Brendan Matthews, who is representing Kenosha Police Officer Rusten Sheskey, told CNN that when officers arrived on the scene on Aug. 23, a woman said “he’s got my kid, he’s got my keys.”

    Matthews said that if Officer Sheskey and his partner had allowed Blake to drive away with the children in the car and something bad had happened, “the question would have been ‘why didn’t you do something?'”...

    The Milwaukee Journal Sentinel reported that dispatchers said the woman who called 911 had told them Blake “isn’t supposed to be there and he took the complainant’s keys and is refusing to give them back.” the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel reported.

    DCI said the 911 caller told the dispatcher that Blake had been her boyfriend, according to the statement.

    The dispatcher advised the responding officers that there was an alert for a wanted person at that address.

    Matthews said that the officers knew before they arrived on the scene on Aug. 23 that Blake had an active warrant for domestic violence charges for an attack on Booker that occurred in May, the Kenosha News reported.

    He was wanted on charges of third-degree sexual assault, trespassing, and disorderly conduct in connection with domestic abuse that occurred at the same address, according to Newsweek.

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