• Podcast

    Running Out Of Soybeans?

    Why food shortages may define the future
    by Chris Martenson

    Wednesday, December 16, 2020, 3:11 PM

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Several factors are conspiring to weaken the reliability of our food production systems, warns Christian Westbrook, publisher of the website IceAgeFarmer.com

We’re seeing a shortening of the growing season for important crops due to weather trends and changes in the solar cycle.

Our food production system, which is highly dependent on chemical inputs and fossil fuels, is becoming increasingly brittle.

And we have more vulnerability due to the global nature of modern food supply chains. Crop shortages/failures in one part of the world impact all markets now.

For example, soybean supply is tightening as bad weather in South America and increased buying by China are hitting at a time when global stocks are already low.

As the world population grows, climate instability continues, and more countries are able to economically compete for resources, experts foresee future demand that may prove overwhelming vs supply:

What if several of the world’s biggest food crops failed at the same time?

In the past several decades, many of the world’s major breadbaskets have experienced shocks – events that caused large, rapid drops in food production. For example, regional droughts and heat waves in the Ukraine and Russia in 2007 and then again in 2009 damaged wheat crops and caused global wheat prices to spike by substantial amounts in both years. In 2012 heat and drought in the United States slashed national corn, soybean and other crop yields by up to 27 percent. And yields of important food crops are low and stagnating in many countries due to factors including plant diseases, poor soil quality, poor management practices and damage from air pollution.

At the same time, many experts assert that world food production may have to double by 2050 to feed a growing population and satisfy rising demand for meat, poultry and dairy products in developing countries.

The solutions to these challenges lie in cultivating food resilience, says Westbrook — a message Peak Prosperity has been delivering for over a decade.

Regenerative soil farming. Sustainable food production at the community and household level. Working with natural cycles vs attempting to force them into submission.

To learn more about the solutions we need and how to participate in them, listen to Chris’ podcast with Ice Age Farmer Christian Westbrook.

Transcript

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Chris Martenson: Welcome everyone to this Peek Prosperity podcast. I am your host Chris Martenson of course, and today we're going to be discussing a wide range of things. We're going to be discussing climate, the grand solar minimum, maybe the great reset, certainly Covid and what's been going on there, and lots of things around food and the possibility of food shortages with Christian of Ice Age Farmer. Christian, welcome so much to the program. It's great to have you here.

Christian: Thanks so much Chris. You do great work, and I'm honored to be here with you.

Chris Martenson: Well, thank you. So let's start here. Your website is iceagefarmer.com. I want to make sure people go there. You’ve got a ton of different places that you can send people to. I want to talk about that in just a second, but first I've got this world view about how I organize things. I talk about the three E's, the economy, energy, and environment. It's a scaffolding and it's a way I say, hey, if you understand the world through this scaffolding maybe you could understand where the world is and why it's going the direction it is or maybe you can predict and get yourself better positioned. You’ve got a framework for it, and I know you’ve spent a lot of time organizing around the grand solar minimum and all that, but what's your world view and how do you talk to people about it?

Christian: Sure. I do think that the grand solar minimum has really helped to frame a lot of these key issues for me because I've been saying like you for a long time different aspects of these agendas and what's going on in the world, but frequently it seemed as if the establishment or the cryptocracy or whatever you might call it would move more rapidly than they might need to even when it was just advantageous to them, sort of push people along this vector towards tierney and control and centralization even when it was working against them. And it wasn’t until I actually started to look at the natural cycles of the sun, and the fact that we've been exiting a relatively stable period of climate on the planet due to the sun exiting this modern maximum that we've been enjoying for the last 80-90 years before now.

And so what that means is that the way we grow food on this planet is it's highly brittle at this point. You know, it's changed into Rockefeller-driven petrochemical and mono-cropping at scale, which is terrible in a number of ways that we can get into, but mostly it's just very brittle. It's very fragile and because it was all stood up during this time of very stable climate, as we exit that, there will be very real food challenges to food production and you see that time and time throughout history as the sun does this because it's a cycle. It's a natural cycle. We've survived it before, and we can survive it again, but we have set up some systems now that are fragile enough that we'll have some challenges to overcome as this happens. And yeah, so a lot of those things are coming to fruition now as we've exited solar cycle 24 over the last couple years here. We've been getting the first taste of that, and I think heading into 2030 is when it's really going to start to hit home and that for me and I think for a lot of people has really helped to underscore and to understand why these agendas are lurching forward at really a breakneck speed right now. So I think that's sort of the frame of reference that has been helpful.

Chris Martenson: I want to understand what level of cycles are we talking about. So I'll ask Livio to pull up this chart. I'm going to speak it to you because you can't see it, but it's going to be a chart of the Holocene, which we'll look back maybe 500,000 years, and you see this little flat period for the last 10,000 years, which is when agriculture developed. That's one cycle, which it's been very, very stable. And, prior to that, it was all over the map. Very hard to develop agriculture because I'm talking to you from Western Mass so I think 8000 years ago there was a mile of ice over my head, so obviously not conducive to growing much into that circumstance. So that's one set of cycles. It's been very calm for 10,000 years. Are you saying we're exiting that or are you on a shorter cycle with something about the -- you know, we look maybe back to the mini ice age that we saw in the 1700's. Which cycle are we talking about?

Christian: Exactly. So I'd like to point out first of all that there are a number of cycles here, and everything you just said already makes it clear that this global warming narrative is a complete farce. We've been through ice ages and come out of them and vice versa before, so the idea that man has suddenly just thrown the planet off of its wheels is quite ridiculous and laughable. And there are people, to be clear, who make the argument that, yes, we are exiting one of those larger cycles and heading into a deeper ice age. The one that I think we can more conclusively and meaningfully speak to though is more of a 200- and 400-year cycle. When you look back at those time ranges, you see things like, as you mentioned, the little ice age, which overlapped with the Dalton Minimum and the Maunder Minimum.

So the sun goes through a natural -- it's got sort of a natural heartbeat. It's called a Schwabe cycle. Every 11 years, the sun sort of moves. It goes to a relative maximum and a minimum, and those are called solar maximum when there's a lot of activity and a lot of sunspots and flaring and activity that offers us some electromagnetic shielding through the influences of space, galactic cosmic rays and these sorts of things, which do have, like I said, very real effects on the climate and our ability to grow crops. They change the jet stream and things like this, and so too with it dropping to a minimum, the solar minimum, and that's normal. That's the 11-year sunspot cycle. When you look back at the charts of sunspots, though, you can see that sometimes it will be amplified a bit like the modern maximum, the grand maximum, that this is unambiguously displayed on Wikipedia that, through 2008, we were in the modern maximum. And you can see that it actually sort of amplifies that Schwabe cycle. And then so too are there times during a grand minimum where it will become somewhat muted or even drop off completely as it did during the modern minimum, and that's when we start to see the colder temperatures.

The jet stream loses its stability and cold air from the artic starts to come down. It's now called the in the media a polar vortex and vice versa some warm air pockets will sort of sneak up and then go up into the artic and they’ll say, oh my gosh, it's global warming. So that's the modern narrative overlay over what is actually just a very natural cycle. Those are called meridional flows when the jet stream gets to be a little wavy, and that's what I mean when I say we've had stable growing seasons in recent times but not as much anymore.

Chris Martenson: When you say a little wavy, I think of it as a -- because I'm subject to that polar vortex. Every so often, it just gets blisteringly cold down here, and I think of it kind of like the artic is -- cold is a source of energy in a sense, but it's sort of anti-energy, but there's an icebox up there. It's kind of like, if you open your freezer and all this cold air rushed out, you would lose that. So there's a bank of cold, and when it comes down here -- I can tell my from own climate because that cold air comes to me sometimes or sometimes it goes to Russia, but when that happens I know that we're going to see more ice melt next year because it lost its cold.

It lost it, and when that cold came rushing down here something had to replace it, and it's usually something warmer. So are you saying that loss of -- I don't know what you'd call it -- rigidity? It's not even that. The jet stream had a really defined pattern for most of my life, and it hasn’t had that same pattern for about the last 5-10 years I would say.

Christian: Yeah, that's exactly right. And yeah, when you open the freezer door, there's a time when it's a little bit warmer in there and you'll see some of that increased melt. But we're also making up for it. You know, ice is growing quite rapidly during the cold season right now. So it's easiest and I think most accurate to describe this as losing the stability of the growing season of these climate conditions.

Chris Martenson: That's language that's close to my heart. When I describe it, I talk about climate instability because we need that Holocene stability to grow stuff, right? So you say Iowa is a great place to grow crops because you know, and there a reason for that. There's stability in the rainfall, temperature patterns, and things like that. So let's talk about the instability. You know, every news report I'm reading says 2020 is going to be the hottest year on record. This is with a La Nina in place as well. How do you account for that?

Christian: Well, I've been saying that for 30 years now. It's been literally no snow by the year 2000 is the sort of rhetoric we've been hearing for my entire life at this point, and we're hearing AOC and the likes of other newcomers to that scene repeat those words but somehow with new credibility since they're new on the scene. So I don’t put a lot of faith -- in fact, I put very little faith into much of what they say at this point regarding global warming and those effects.

Chris Martenson: Well, from how you track it though, your YouTube channel is full of -- and what I love about what you do is you're talking and everything is sourced, right? So you have articles and maps and you're really making the case with words but visuals. And you're backing it up, and so one of the things that you’ve been on for a while is this idea of food fragility, the fragility of the food system. What are you seeing there? Just straight upfront, are there any sort of like warning flags today that you're looking at? I know you are. And has that trend really increased or decreased over time?

Christian: Without question Chris. So, first of all, I think it's very informative to look back because otherwise we're just sort of looking at this small bit of data that we have immediately. But, when you look back at history, and I've got a series of resources up at iceagefarmer.com/history where you can look back at the document. You know, we have stories and records of the growing seasons and the effects on people and the famines unfortunately that resulted. So you can look back at the Dalton minimum and the Maunder minimum before and see the stories of Thomas Jefferson writing about how the US corn crop was decimated by frost and by drought around those times. The year without a summer before that, in 1315, there was incredible amounts of people sadly dying in Europe. And so that gives us a pretty good picture of what happens during these times when the sun drops off, and then we just need to overlay that understanding over what's going on now to sort of get a sense for what will happen now and what we should be doing to accommodate those changes.

And, unfortunately, what we've seen in the last year is rather than making any of those changes to try and make our food production systems more diversified and more resilient -- and I hope we'll talk about more of that in this conversation -- is that the establishment is doing the exact opposite. They are pushing us further off the ledge, and the goal there is of course is to take total control over the food supply, which will transitively allow them to take more control over the population. So yeah, last year we saw a record-driven plant life after three because of the late flooding in the Midwest, tremendous flooding, and then a very early September blizzard that moved through the Midwest. So again, we see the shortening of the growing season on both sides, and there is also a tremendous drop-off in what's called growing degree days, which is the amount of heat that's available to a plant as it grows. It's just a measure of how much heat is there during the growing season, and it allows us to quantitatively say that there were actually places around the world where you could grow corn and barley or what have you last year that we now cannot. And this trend has been continuing over the last three years as well. So yeah, there are a number of pieces of data and trends that absolutely speak to not just the fragility of our food systems, but it's gradual collapse here.

Chris Martenson: That's such at odds with this is going to be the hottest year ever narrative. How do you square that up?

Christian: Well, again, I think they are pointing us in the wrong direction. I think they actually enjoy doing that. It's a sort of Luciferian inversion of the truth to tell us one thing while they do another, and I don't know that there's much else to say about that. I think they're just throwing us off the track of what's actually going on here. There was a period, you probably know, in the 70's where a lot of scientists said, hey, it looks like we're about to drop off a cliff here into a period of global cooling and we really need to take this into consideration, especially for food production and for how we're going to keep a lot of our logistics running. And that sort of just dropped off real quick and then switched over now to the global warming narrative, which again, it's not just that they're lying to us and pointing us in the wrong direction.

It's that that allows them the mechanism for control when they can describe -- you know, this is straight from The Club of Rome when they can describe CO2 is something that is the enemy of man and it's something that we all are creating then that is a perfect leaver for them to take control over all aspects of economic activity and institute all of the sorts of things that we're seeing this year in the lockdown go into hyper drive. You know, all the verbiage and control systems that have been initially rolled out this year in terms of lockdowns are now being extended. They're just drafting that language right onto the climate situation talking about climate lockdowns because we need to keep our CO2 production down and Sabbath _____ [00:13:08] on Saturdays.

We just shut things down on Sunday as a way to keep carbon production down. It's pretty stunning to see them just adopt the same control measures that they’ve sort of rolled out the prototypes for in this year under the guidance of the pandemic onto the whole longstanding climate agenda now. So that's how I would explain what's going on there.

 

Chris Martenson: Yeah. I have a whole model myself about what the great reset is all about, but I want to explore your model for it. And so before we move on, though -- just to be clear about this -- so, in 1318, you mentioned there's some records that crops sort of collapsed, but that was in a place. I'm wondering is it an appropriate objection to say, yeah, so it might have been tough in Europe, but it was probably fine in Brazil so now we have a global food production system so who cares. Like, if it sort collapses in Russia one year, we've got Ukraine or whatever the story is. From the historical perspective, were those Maunder and Dalton minimums were those associated with global wipeouts or were those more sort of regional even if that region was a whole continent.

Christian: Sure. So the specific events that were taking place could be more regional, but it's absolutely the case that the loss of stability, as we were determining it before, was a global phenomenon. And I think we've seen that actually this year where the US had the glacier that wiped out a ton of our soybean and corn production. China had a series of typhoons that did the same thing with much of their crop-producing area and then right now Chris, and this is an important part that I want to hit today in our conversation as well, is soybeans are taking a hit in Brazil. You know, all eyes are now on South America after those two major crop -- these are the number one, two, and three producers of soybeans in the world China, US, and Brazil.

And so after these terrible seasons in 2020 for US and China all eyes of money traders are on Brazil. And they of course have been experiencing a record drought with an unprecedented amounts of lack of rainfall down there. I covered an article a few weeks ago that said farmers at this point are just putting seeds into dust and praying that there will be some precipitation over the next few weeks here that will allow them to _____ [00:15:20] out some resemblance of a crop. Unfortunately, that rain really has not materialized and the outlook at this point is not good for the next few weeks either, and so now we are looking at what is the major breadbasket areas of the world experiencing simultaneous huge-scale losses of crops. And there's a lot of traders asking what happens if we run out of soybeans, and I think that's a question that's worth exploring.

Chris Martenson: And I've tracked it for a while, and there is global supply, global stocks, and there's X number of days in inventory of every major cereal grain and beans and things like that. So is there a chance you're saying that we could actually run out of soybeans?

Christian: There is and it's not just me. You know, I make sure to find agriculture experts because I'm not one, and I want to see what they're saying and it is alarming to say the least to see them using the same sorts of words that I would like -- I don’t want to raise alarms here, but the US data is consistently marking down throughout this year as we export hand over fist more than ever before to China. You know, China has already cleaned out Brazil from last year. They're down to 38 metric million tons of soybeans, and they are hoovering up food from anywhere in the world right now. And the US sadly is just letting that happen. We're just sending them all of our food, and so actually the USDA in November had a report that said, whoa, we were kind of off here guys. About half of our corn and half of our soybeans aren't there, and then in the report that they released yesterday, December 10th, they cut those ending stocks and production numbers down even further. So yes, there is absolutely a shortage that's materializing and of course traders being traders will start to speculate and that will sort of amplify the whole situation.

A lot of people will chime in at this point and say this has happened in the past, although not at this level, but usually what happens is price rationing kicks in meaning the beans get -- this is supply and demand, right? So the beans will get expensive and China will stop buying because it ceases to make economic sense. Now, we have to come back to the grand solar minimum factor, and the reality that China knows very well what's going on and that's why they are sucking up as much food as they can throughout the world. So I do not expect that price rationing mechanism to work, and not only that the markets they actually -- prices fell yesterday even as ending stocks were marking down further, which it's not functioning. The market is not functioning as it should, which amplifies the reality that price rationing is not going to work at this point. So yeah, I think we're in a situation where we do need to look at the fact that soybeans are by and large the number one source of protein for animal feeds around the world and that this corresponds exactly with the stated goals of these technocrats and their desire to end animal agriculture.

That's a direct quote from a number of them, including the CEO of Impossible Foods whose creating lab-grown meat funded by Bill Gates and these are agendas and they are executing rapidly on them and a collapse in soybean stocks will mean that the cost of animal feed rapidly rises until it becomes so cost prohibitive to feed your animals that a lot of producers will be forced to start culling their herds. And that is you can't just invent more cattle and plant more cattle the next season. This is a lasting damage to the protein and the meat supply of the world right now that we're about to experience, and we've already experienced some of this. Just to name the pandemic shutting down the meat plants earlier in the year, so there's already been some initial turbulence here, and if and as this soybean shortage materializes and has those impacts on animal feed. It's a huge blow.

Soybeans are of course used throughout human food as well if you know because you're trying to keep phytoestrogens away from your kids and keep them healthy. When you walk through the grocery store, it's merely impossible not to find products that have some form of protein isolate or soy lecithin or some soybean oil, which is also labeled as vegetable oil. So when you walk around the supermarket, it's really -- you know, breads have vegetable oil in them, not like the Artisan or sourdoughs. You'll still be able to find some of these things, but we're talking about of course the soymilk. So a lot of people when I made this report on soybean shortage initially they said, finally, we'll get rid of the soy boys. It's not that simple. You know, we're talking bread. We're talking about meats that ship in oils. There's a long list of any of those products that have soy in them, and I think we're at risk. Again, as the price of soybeans rises, it will become really expensive for these manufacturers to get their products to market. Another objection that one might raise at this point is, well, we'll just find some economic substitute or we'll go out and get a different oil and put that in the bread.

We'll use something else. And while I very much hope that this is the case, unfortunately, again Chris, I think we've seen in 2020 in the early days of the pandemic when some restaurants and schools shut down we saw how brittle and inflexible our food supply chain is as dairy farmers were forced to dump by the truckload milk down the drain because they couldn’t -- again, this is the point. They couldn’t pivot and find some other distribution channel that quickly. So given what we've seen this year, I worry that it's unrealistic to expect that large-scale manufacturing so these big bread bakeries and these kinds of uses of soybean oil will have difficulty to say the least in quickly pivoting to something else. I think that's unrealistic.

Chris Martenson: Yeah, the quick pivoting Covid taught me a lot, and one of them was about that milk situation. I didn’t understand. So everybody was like, oh my God. People panicked and bought toilet paper and that's why we ran out. I was like no. What happened was people were staying home so they were taking 40% more dumps at home and that means they need toilet paper at home. And it turns out there's two parallel but never shall they talk to each other, the distribution and manufacturing supply chains, one for the retail and one for the commercial markets. And it turns out you can't just sort of divert into the other because there were these giant rolls that go into the airport bathrooms and people weren't using those so the Charmin got rinsed. And it was simple capacity manufacturing, and the same thing happened in milk.

I learned that there's all this milk that was supposed to go into these big giant things, you know totes that end up at Starbucks in the lever machines or whatever they're doing and there were only so many one gallon milk jugs and people were now drinking milk at home. Instead of just on Saturday and Sunday, they were drinking it seven days a week, and it just again collapsed that side of the supply chain. So I learned a lot about supply chains in all of this and discovered that the whole thing time, quality, cost, what you want in business, these are very cost effective systems, but they're not very resilient. You know, they're tuned for a specific operating environment. As long as people are going to work Monday to Friday and coming home on Saturday and Sunday it's tuned for that.

Very efficient cost wise, but it couldn’t manage the change so you're talking about some larger changes. Like, what happens to the larger supply chain network of the feed stocks going into the animals, the animal supply chain, the soy, all the stuff that if you run out of soybeans I mean I would imagine that would be a fairly substantial supply shock again? There would be some learnings in there I bet.

Christian: Learnings to say the least. You know, I mentioned certainly animal feed is the big one that comes to mind for me and goes directly to their stated goal of ending animal agriculture. But, like I said, the vegetable oil is a big one, the soybean oil that's used in fried and baked goods, lots of breads, salad dressings, meats like tuna fish that come in oils. Soy lecithin is used not just in chocolate but a lot of breakfast cereals, breakfast bars, soy protein isolate. It means all those protein bars and protein powders aren't going to be there. Yes, we will get rid of soymilk, which oddly may mean that there's a good chunk of our population that, like I said, is eating all of this food that is inundated with soy. And there's a chance that they actually literally go through kind of a mass menopause, a withdrawal from the phytoestrogens they’ve been imbibing on a daily basis.

It's kind of a weird thing to imagine Antifa getting even more roundup from that. So yeah, it's throughout the human food system as well, and this is not even speaking to biodiesel and other industrial uses like paints and plastics and cleaners that have some aspects of soybeans in them. What's left at that point on our shelves is pasta and canned goods and frozen goods, and this is where we have to sort of broaden our scope a little bit because everything I just named is the -- you know, we've seen reports, due to this second wave of COVID-19, there's going to be shortages of can goods and shortages of pastas. And then, on the frozen goods front, the World Economic Forum just volunteered the other day that the new super spreader is frozen food packaging. And so this is another case Chris where I worry that, rather than take appropriate steps to ensure the population stays fed, they're going to further amplify the effects.

They want to collapse even what should have remained on the shelves if soybeans run short. And all of this, of course, would again be to make the case, right? They need that problem, which is the first type of Hegelian dialectic. They need a problem so that they can justify the reaction and the solution. In this case, when we're talking about taking over the food supply chain and this is a stated goal that Rockefeller has rolled out there. We set the table agenda. The EU called it the new Farm to Fork policy. The UN is running their Food System Summit all about insect proteins and how we need to reform that, fundamentally change the entire food system and what we eat to save the climate in the name of public health, but to actually get people eating bugs they're going to need poke people. They're going to need people to see why the way we've been doing things can't work, and so from what I sit these are engineered food shortages that, from their perspective, pave the way for that complete reformatting of the food system.

Chris Martenson: I'm kind of two minds here. So I said I had a framing for the great reset, and I've been analyzing it. And, when I strip away the gobbledygook and the transhumant technofantasy stuff, which I don’t agree with at all, I agree with the larger thing, which is, hey, we're at 7.8 billion. We're going to go to nine billion. We knew we were kind of screwed up. They didn’t put it in this language. I'm paraphrasing. We didn’t really come up with a plan B, and we don’t have the resources for all these billions of people who basically want to live into middle-class lifestyles. It doesn’t exist. We don’t have the oil. We don’t have the soil. We don’t have the water. We don’t have the cement. We ran out of sand. There were all sorts of like flashing red lights from a Malthusian, but it's just sort of a limits-based discussion, which says, hey, there's a limit to this fear we live on and we're kind of poking up against it. And I get the impetus to say maybe we should have a plan. I'm more of an out front be honest with it. People can handle the truth if you tell them. They take a different approach.

That's fine, but I understand where they're going with this and all of that. I don’t agree with how, but I agree with the why behind it, which is sooner or later we're going to have to face up to this idea that we can't keep living the lives we've been living. Sake of argument, United States still consumes about 25% of the world's energy, and we're 6% of the population, but that dynamic is rapidly shifting, and it doesn’t work. There's just not enough energy for 100% of the world to consume the same amount we do. It doesn’t exist, so the question is what do you do with that, and so a lot of that -- that's my framing for this. It makes that we do need some sort of a response to that.

That's what I think the great reset really is is the elites kind of looking around and going this was unsustainable, which I agree with, and we've got to do something, which I agree with. And then, of course, they're control freaks so it's all about making sure that everybody gets a barcode and a chip and has a digital currency, and anyway that's sort of their view of how this works. I'm not sure I agree, but against all of that -- well, let me get your reaction to that because I have a response to what I think people should consider doing giving all that, but what do you think about that framing?

Christian: I agree with a large part of what you said, except that I think you give them a lot of benefits about a lot of doubts when you say that there's any altruistic motivations behind this at all. I think the control is the bottom line here, and I think that's evidenced by the simple reality that a rational response to what's on going on -- to the problem, the very real problems that you just enumerated, would not be taking total control of all food into massive indoor insect farms or saying we should all be eating plant-based proteins, which are actually even more unsustainable but even worse for the environment to do tons and tons of soybeans and mono-cropping.

They want us to fail forward into even more tighter control because that I would argue is their goal, and if it were not then we would see more reasonable and potentially successful solutions like diversifying our food supply, decentralizing it, and empowering everyone to be able to go back to victory gardens were the way we used to think about this. Everyone should be growing their own food that way there cannot be a blow to our food system that takes us all out. That's the way humanity has survived to date, and so I think to think about anything else is just really it's got to be motivated by the wrong kinds of ideas and that being, as you hinted at, just taking total control of things. And they're pretty open about that being the motivation when they talk about the new supply chain being a block chain, an artificial intelligence driven system that will identify uniquely every last coffee bean harvested and every piece of a fish pulled from the sea so that we can track it across the entire planet.

They're implementing system. IBM is rolling out that system right now because of the COVID-19 scare. And they're putting in these surveillance systems that Klaus Schwabe himself writes in this book that COVID-19 is not as huge as a thing as everyone might think it is. But the reality is that these surveillance systems will not go away after it. These are lasting changes that they're engineering to humanity right now, and they’ve put satellites in the sky. It's another way that the agenda has been grafted on the climate. It's not contact tracing now. It's climate tracing, and we actually saw Al Gore himself come out with a climate tracing initiative whereby a network of existing satellites is now being myriad into this new artificial intelligence system that watches in real time emissions across the world so that they can identify anyone who is breaking the rules and has too many cow farts on their property or is growing the wrong plant, you know, whatever it is you're doing.

Any industrial activity that is unauthorized by the technocrats will now be seen in real time from above, and at the same time they're deploying Biobots into the sewers again in the name of looking for so we can detect early outbreaks of viruses, but the reality is that they can use that information. It's a very rich dataset, human sewage, and so they're able to see dietary trends and drug uses as well as the spread of viruses and things like that so surveillance from above, surveillance from below, complete awareness of every resource on the planet. All of this has been described for some time under the agenda 2021, agenda 2030. I would love to give them the benefit of the doubt like you may be doing here or maybe you're just playing devil's advocate quite literally, but I just don’t see it.

Chris Martenson: Quite literally. Well, my honest view is that I think I really believe in the word koyaanisqatsi, which is the Hopi vision of the white people saying you're just out of balance. So I think we're living a life that's out of balance, right? And part of that is we've gone down this role of breaking things down and thinking we can reduce them and reduce and reduce. It's sort of the masculine trait. There used to be, if you went to old Greek times or any other times, there would be goddesses and gods. There was this balance and we went down this road of saying, hey, we're just going to see if we can reduce everything and understand it. What I love, I love all the quantum physicists.

They’ve gone through that hole of singularity and popped out the other side and said, oh my God, the Sufi masters were right. It's all kind of energy and vibrations. Anyway, there's this weird mashing up of stuff, but I feel like this great reset is one last great push to see if we can't just control everything, but I'm sitting on 180 acres now and I want to get to this next part, which is about the soil. I'm all about the soil now, and I have this humility to know that the soil is more complicated than anything we could possibly understand, right? In its interactions, in the immense integrity and mathematical computational power of nature and what it's derived is beyond our _____ [00:32:14]. But these people think that if we could just get one more layer of control and it's kind of like they're the people who go, you know all those problems we just created with technology, we're going to solve them, right?

And they don’t have any awareness that we've been on that loop forever, and it's never gone anywhere, but it's required one last giant and even more complicated technological thing to be done. I think they’ll fail so that's why I want to talk with you and that's why I want to talk about all this stuff, and they may fail for reasons that are out they don’t even see like Dalton and Maunder minimums. They may not see Peak oil coming. Who knows what they don’t see, but they think they can control us, and they think they can control everything and therein lies the salvation.

I disagree completely on that front because I'm a big believer that complex systems have emergent behaviors and all you can do is watch them happen, and you can't predict them no matter how good your AI is, right? So I'm a big believer that it's like, okay, maybe we can use technology a little bit better, but in the meantime I think you ought to know where your food is coming from, and I mean where it's coming from that's nice and local. And I'm taking some of that on my own right out that window out there, so what are your thoughts on that?

Christian: That's awesome. Congratulations on the purchase of your farm by the way. Yeah, absolutely I do also believe -- I share your belief that ultimately they will fail that humanity -- I just don’t think -- I think the more you squeeze the human spirit the more we will flourish and fight back, and I think we're seeing that right now. And I'm incredibly encouraged by all of the people that are so to speak waking up to these agendas and starting to fight back, people that you wouldn’t have expected to. You were receptive to this information a few years ago, and now oh my gosh you're seeing what they're doing. So I think we're sensing the beginnings of that mass awakening of the response to this. And yeah, it's just like saying, well, we need more government to solve the problems of government and we need more technology to solve.

So yeah, those things are destined to fail and Chris it can be a quite painful failure. There can be a lot of people that are caught in that collapse of the massive global technocratic seize for control that they're attempting right now. So while I remain optimistic, and I have to, I don't know. That's just the way I am. I firmly believe in humanity and our ability to weather these storms, but they can still be very dangerous storms and that's why, like you said, yeah, we need to be growing our own food. We need to be taking prudent steps at this point.

Chris Martenson: So let's talk about the anti-fragile approach to all this then because this is actually -- so I've been at this a long time, and 2020 is the year where -- I've got to tell you. So one thing I hate is when people decide they’ve had enough of the conversation and they say, oh, that's conspiracy theory. Somehow that's like calling someone a child molester or whatever. It's just you're of the wrong religion. It's just a showstopper. I'm just like okay. 2020 has been the year where all these so-called theories have become facts, and I know people are having their own adjustment reactions, their own emotional ability to sort of wrestle with the fact that this is actually happening and here it is. And that there are these agendas and plans and things like that and given that, though, I really think people need to have a response to that besides paralysis or dread or fear because that's actually part of their narrative.

The other narrative is, well, what can you do about that, and I believe in this idea of decentralized stuff. You know, Reagan said about the soviets trust but verify. I'm like I'm going to hope for the best, but I'm going to make plans as if that stuff doesn’t work out. So what are your plans that you're making and what kinds of things should people be talking about? I tell everybody to plant a garden. That's number one. People are like what should I do? I'm like plant a garden. All sorts of reasons for that, not least of which is it's going to take you some time to learn how to do that and you can't shorten the cycle because it just takes time, so anyway, solutions. What's the response to all this?

Christian: Yeah, absolutely. I think that's a great point. We can hope, but hope is not a plan. And so the only rational response to these people who say, like Henry Kissinger said, you know if you control food, you control people and their attempts to centralize the production and the control of the food. The only rational response we can have is to all start growing, is to all plant those victory gardens. And you’ve done some great interviews already with Marjory Wildcraft and Joel Salatin just last week about these sorts of things. And I've done a lot of that on my channel as well. I think one of the things that is actually very encouraging is that I had a conversation with Marjory Wildcraft and she's got her three-part system, the rabbits, the eggs from chickens, and then the garden.

But I've also had conversations with indigenous, you know, a Hopi dry farmer who has completely different ways that he's able to be totally self-sufficient. I have talked to Gabe Brown who is a holistic rancher in North Dakota where he runs a farm and grows crops and raises animals without any external inputs whatsoever and actually by virtue of the regenerative practices, the holistic animal husbandry that he's doing there. These things -- and there's a lot of overlap when we talk about permaculture or indigenous practices. A lot of these things are all describing at least the same ways of thinking about running your home. It's a lot about the soil like you already sort of hinted at there, but just by virtue of using these practices instead of the brittle at-scale mono-cropping you actually become much more resilient to the changes in the climate that we're talking about, the change in growing seasons. And so a lot of the solutions are just in returning -- rather than failing forward into the technocratic control, returning to the things that have been working for humanity since the dawn of time.

So yeah, a huge amount of focus should be on the soil, and I like to reference the -- it's very easy to remember -- the five basic principles of soil husbandry, of caring about your soil because keeping it covered -- because, as you hinted at, there's a really rich microbiome in the soil that, if you take care of it, it almost can't help but just grow amazing plants for you and feed your family. It's a great relationship you develop there and that's why a lot of these indigenous cultures had spirituality. You know, it's almost impossible. When I spoke with the Hopi dry farmer, it was hard for him to talk about growing food without getting into his world view and his spirituality because it's just you're in communion with forces bigger than yourself when you do these things. So the five soil principles are keep you soil covered. Keep an armor on the ground at all times so that the microbiome isn't exposed to the conditions of the weather and the sun.

Don’t disturb the soil tilling it. You know, it kills off this rich microbiome that we're trying to take care of here, so don’t disturb it. Keep it covered. Keep a living root in the soil at all times even if it's in the winter. Just some covered crop means that every day when the sun comes out that plant is working constantly to take the energy of the sun and feed it out through the exudates from the roots into the soil. So as long as you have a living plant in your soil, you're constantly building up and feeding this microbiome that we're taking care of. Maximizing biodiversity is the fourth one and that just means, the more different kinds of plants that you have, the more different kinds of energies and exudates that they're feeding into the soil and obviously the more resilient.

If there's a frost that kills one off, the other one will still be there feeding the soil so this all speaks to just being able to keep that soil alive no matter what. And then the fifth one, and this is the big one, integrating animals into your homestead because there's just no substitute for very rich manure. That is a very important part of the nutrient cycle on a working homestead or a farm, whatever it is, at any scale you have to close the loop of feeding the plants and animals. And then they feed the plants and it's just the same and you describe the same sort of a nutrient loop even when you talk about some soilless practices like aquaponics. You know, I hear a lot. In fact, it makes sense. A lot of people don’t have big farms or even backyards that they can grow in.

If they're in apartments, then that's when the answer starts to be look at aquaponics, which again has the animals being the fish that take the fish food you're feeding them and then their pee goes onto the feed the plants in the system so it seems like magic Chris to have these plants just growing by virtue of the fact there are fish down below that you're feeding and this closed-loop system keeps producing food for your family. And so, even without the soil necessarily in there, aquaponics is still a very rich system. But point being there that that is a very space-efficient way of growing foods, and another big one there is rabbits that -- Marjory talks a lot about this because you can put rabbits in a corner of your garage and still not only is it producing -- you like rabbits, right?

So not only is it producing protein for your family, but they are yielding very rich manure that you can take out and build a garden basically from scratch just using their poop on a daily basis. And so integrating animals into your homestead is a really big -- that's why I left it for last -- it's one of the biggest aspects of these five principles of good soil husbandry. I think that also speaks to why I'm so dead set on removing animal agriculture completely because it means that they break this holy cycle of nutrients of nature and thus make you completely dependent on their chemical fertilizers and their food. So that's why ending animal agriculture is such a big deal to them. But those are the five principles of soil management that I think are a great place to start, and again you can do that on any scale if it's just like little planters on your balcony to your front yard. It's really the key.

Chris Martenson: Touchy in our culture, but there's one place in the world, which they’ve actually had continuous agriculture for over 4000 years and it's a region of China. And there, they have a cast system running where there's a group of people whose whole job is to bring nutrients back out to the fields by which I mean they collect the human waste, not waste. It's actually valuable stuff, but they’ve closed that nutrient loop for 4000 years. It's the only place I am aware of that's done that, right? Every other place, when you farm, you tend to strip mine the soil, right? When a kernel of whatever grows and you're like, wow, it's got magnesium and calcium in it and it's got protein and all that stuff, well, that nitrogen didn’t just sort of magically appear in your protein. And the calcium and magnesium are minerals. They have to be replaced.

So we don’t have that nutrient looping thing going on in our agriculture. It's a strip-mining operation, but here on our farm we've owned it for a year, but we brought four cows in to help resurrect a field and two of them are going to go through the winter with us. And we're mob cropping them and I came across Gabe Brown's work and I'm like, ah, I need to find out who he's using for his cover crop and called the company and we're working with them to get -- it's just tiny. You only have like eight open acres to work with, but a field. But they really opened my eyes to deep complexity of we're coming up with a 12 seed mixture and there's this sorghum with the deep roots for this and the legumes for that is really complex. But when I watch Gabe Brown's stuff I'm like here's a guy doing it at scale. Three thousand acres I think he's running, right? I mean he's doing it, no input, and he's just crushing it and still people don’t do it. His neighbor, I think he's got a famous slide of his neighbor's compacted, nondraining field right next to his. He's like, yeah, it's been like that for 20 years.

He keeps looking over at our stuff going what are you doing, but he won't do it. So there's a lot of this story that has to change, and I think the impetus for that is 2020 has been a good year for that because a lot of people all of a sudden woke up and said this whole system feels a little fragile. I live in a world now where I could be told I'm not allowed to go anywhere. My whole basic freedom set, including the freedom to assemble, to move, to conduct business could all be taken away, but that could even extend to food at some point. So growing your own makes a lot of sense, and for people who think it's as simple as you just put seeds in the ground it's way more complicated. And to become a soil farmer is going to be the rest of my life I'm going to try and become okay at it, you know? It's a really worthy challenge I think.

Christian: Yeah, absolutely. And, like I said, it feels really good and you get the sense that you're working with nature, with a force bigger than yourself when you go out and you see these plants, especially the second season you come out and you’ve got some volunteer plants that I didn’t even plant that and here it is just coming to greet me. It feels so good. And as with any investment, as you're learning right now, it's a ton of work upfront, but the idea is you're investing your energy into a system that at some point will start to payoff and then it becomes a virtuous cycle and of course it pays off more and more yield over the years ahead of you. So you put in these years of hard work at first both because you're learning what's going on, but also because you're building up, you're starting that virtuous cycle, and it does take some energy and investment to do that. And then, as you start the feel the traction and get those rewards, it just feels great.

Chris Martenson: To close this out, I will note for people that you mentioned that China is hoovering up the soybeans, and I'm over here on the energy side noticing that they're hoovering up the available oil in the world. And I did some work with people from China at a fairly high level, and they get it. As one of them told me and said, "We don’t have any lawyers or community organizers at the top." And this was when Obama was president, which was sort of a dig of Obama's past of being a community organizer and a lawyer. So they have PhD's. They’ve got scientists.

They’ve got like really accomplished people sort of at the top, and this was years ago. This guy was not confused. He's like nope. The world is running out of stuff. We're trying to figure out how to get enough for our people. We're very worried about it, and they were busy building oil tank farms, underground storage. You know, building up all sorts of capabilities. They wanted to be first in alternative energy manufacturing. Like, they have a real plan, but their plan was based on the idea that they could see forward a few decades and go this is going to get awkward. And so I feel like my country, the United States, has no plan. If there's a plan, I don't know where it is. I haven't seen it. It seems to be we'll just do more of this next year.

Christian: Yeah. Sadly, we're too busy infighting right now, and I think that is part of the globalist plan is that we have to crush what remains of America. We have to make them feel the brunt of this engineered food shortage again to make the case that we have to reset the food system but also to squash what's left of the free world at this point. There's one other thing that I wanted to really emphasize here, and that is the importance of saving seeds. You know, we've seen seed companies, Monsanto and Syngenta, these guys who have gradually taken over everything and eliminated a lot of the genetic diversity sadly of everything on earth. It's basically ecocide. They’ve been killing off all of these just incredibly rich different heirloom varieties of seeds.

Something really special happens when you grow your own food and start saving seeds by virtue of the fact that seeds actually -- plants actually learn -- they learn about where they’ve grown and they pass that knowledge onto their next generation. And so this guy named Matt Powers who is a permaculture teacher who tells a story about he got ahold of some special corn from South America that he could barely get a crop out the first year, but he got just enough corn kernels out to plant the next year. And then that year they really took off because they had made that initial hard adjustment through a completely different part of the world and figured out they were dealing with different conditions and a shorter growing season, but that next crop really gave him a good yield and you'll see this as you start to grow wherever you are whether it's cold or dry, whatever it is, rocky soil, clay soil, whatever it is that's growing on those first generations of plants if you can just get them to get through that first season are going to give you some seeds that are nice and real and gritty and have learned about where you are.

It's called a landrace, and so I always went to recommend this book called Seed to Seed, which just tells you about a huge number of plants and how you can grow them to seed and then save that seed. And it's not rocket science. Again, people have been doing this since the dawn of time, but that is a hugely important thing because again they're killing off the biodiversity. It's another attempt, a longstanding one now, to take total control over the food supply. And so grow your food, save your seeds, but that also means one broccoli plant, any of those brassicas, you just -- when their gone to seed, you shake them and you’ve got buckets, literally buckets. It's incredible how prolific. I'll never forget my son saying, oh my gosh, like it was one plant and now there's thousands of seeds. It just blew his mind to see the abundance that flows from even a single plant.

And so, once you get your garden started, you can be that guy that then has seeds for your whole neighborhood. And not only that, they're seeds that grow in your neck of the woods for your neighbors. And, by that same logic, if you're just getting started, you absolutely must find people nearby who have growing already because not only do they know the challenges you'll be facing, the predators, the weird that's going to -- it may be sometimes it frosts in May, whatever it is, your story where you're growing they’ll know that story. They’ve been practicing it. I guarantee they want to share what they’ve learned because they're proud of their garden, and then to this point they have seeds that are ready to grow in your neck of the woods. It's not just ordering seeds from some seed company in Missouri and then having to go through that first sort of awkward season of getting them to acclimate to where you are. So grow, save seeds, look for knowledge and other seeds that's already been saved from your neighbors and your master gardeners in your neck of the woods. These are the keys to kick starting your food operation where you are. I really wanted to throw that in there.

Chris Martenson: Oh, great. I'm glad you did. It rang a number of bells. I hadn't thought of that, but I've known for a long time about -- my mind got blown when I heard about how memories are able to be encoded and then passed on through like literal memories that mammals have are able to be encoded and passed. And, of course, nature is way more complex than we thought, but of course the plants had that same thing dialed in. I hadn't thought of that though. So thanks for that.

Christian: It is different.

Chris Martenson: Yeah, that's cool. I can keep talking, but I have a time limit that I usually adhere to for these things so iceagefarmer.com you’ve got -- people can find your YouTube channel there. You have a lot of different places. Maybe as a closing thing you might -- a lot of the platforms I see are on here Gab, Steemit, DTube. You’ve got a Twitter account there, which is iceagefarmer all one thing. So why so many platforms?

Christian: Well, I'm talking about things I'm confident they don’t want us to be talking about at this point, and so I have been trying to get out ahead and use BitChute and lbry.tv to make sure that all of the people we're having good conversations with can keep this connection open when YouTube finally goes ahead and pulls that plug. And it's been a rapid advance over this last month. Now, they're talking about, if you talk about the vaccine or if you talk about the election, then we're going to pull your YouTube channel. And you just were censored the other day, so I think we're all feeling the heat right now and that's why I was trying to -- again, it's a biodiversity plan. It's trying to diversify the channels to get the information out there because that is the point.

Chris Martenson: Yeah. I just had a conversation with somebody that said, oh my God, you finally pushed the envelope too far and you got censored. And I said, "No. I've always been this guy. They’ve started encroaching on my sense of integrity."

Christian: Exactly.

Chris Martenson: I haven't changed. I just do what I do, which is I call it like I see it just like you do. It was like, well, and that's -- yeah, as a final point, I'm not afraid of ideas. I don’t always have things right. My personal motto is I don't know what the truth is, but man I'm good at smelling bullshit. But I love the ability to be able to talk about stuff and be challenged and try stuff and accept stuff and reject stuff. I'm okay with that, but there's a growing zeitgeist out there amongst certain people who think the ideas are dangerous, other people need to be protected from ideas. I don’t of course, but other people do because they might misinterpret things and do bad things so it's really paternalistic. It very much has no trust in the other human out there to say I don’t trust these other people to be exposed to ideas that I find objectionable. I can handle it, but I don't know about them. I'm totally built differently. I trust people to wrestle with things, make mistakes, do goofy things, come to different conclusions and basically grow wiser as they grow older, but I'm starting to feel like a dinosaur with those views compared to what's happening in my country right now.

Christian: Well, I think we're still the majority, right? I think they'd love for you to feel like you're a minority and a waning one in the dinosaur. I just saw Melinda Gates earlier today saying it's really sad about the state of the internet and people being able to share whatever information they have. It's really incumbent upon the owners of the technology to make sure that the information that's being shared is accurate. In other words, it's the information we want. So yeah, they're pushing hard on that right now, and you're right it flows more fundamental distrust of humanity. That's the key here is they don’t love each other. They don’t love themselves. It's a self-hatred driven kind of a thing. We don’t trust people with that information. We don’t trust them to have firearms.

You can see it across the agenda here. And, as you’ve said and as I firmly believe, I am confident in humanity. I love this species, and I think we will blossom given the admittedly tremendous challenges we're facing right now. This is a point of embarkation for a new kind of consciousness that is rising right now. It is no longer possible Chris for us to straddle and sort of just like, well, this is going on, but maybe I'll just sort of hideout over here and maybe weather the storm. No. It's all in right now. We can't just let the TSA pat us down when it comes to injecting our children with these kinds of crazy things. I think everyone is sensing that right now, and so people are taking the appropriate actions.

Chris Martenson: So glad you framed it that way because that's actually really important. I actually, from a higher level perspective, nature may -- I think nature is running experiments with consciousness, and we're one of them. And history says, the historical fossil record says, nature tries a lot of different things. They don’t all make it, right? So if we want to make it as one of the conscious evolutionary sort of things we're going to have to step into that role really well. And make no mistake, if we get wiped off the board, octopuses or dolphins or raccoons or elephants or crows, whatever these other things, which are clearly conscious, they’ll step into that void and nature will keep iterating and working through that experiment. So I think this is our moment as a species if we're going to step up, right? And what I don’t like about the great reset crowd is I think they're asking me to go backwards. They're asking me to go into a state of unconsciousness, exist in a state of fear, get squashed, be small, live in your little container, all of that. I actually think the only hope we have if we're going to get through these many predicaments we face is if we step up into our better selves, like full consciousness.

We step into love, warmness, humility, all kinds of things, right, like true diversity of thought, not fake diversity, which is like based on something that's veneer thin. There's just so much that I disagree with the keepers of the message right now, but I feel the tide turning. I'd love to get your impression. I feel it turning. I can feel people waking up. I can feel this movement happening, and I think they are scared of it because it's not about control and all that stuff. It's going to expose that it's basically joyless, loveless, maybe even soulless individuals. I think that that scares them a little as it probably ought to, but I do think this is actually a really big existential moment for our species, not Americans, but for humans to figure out if we can actually be a successful experiment.

Christian: Absolutely, yeah. I loved the way you phrased that, and clearly they're working to engineer the untermensch, right? They want to devolve us into some weird subspecies that can't think for ourselves. Another way of looking at it would be sort of a Yume [PH] phrasing where collectively -- you know, Yume [PH] did a lot of work on the shadow and how at some point you come through the dark night of the soul and have to meet your shadow and you can't really fight it and defeat it because that just empowers it further.

You have to become conscious of it and integrate it, and I think one could argue that collectively the collective conscious is actually for the first time seeing the shadow, the shadow government, the shadow cryptocracy. You hear these things and it all sort of reflects that humanity is having that dark night of the soul right now. And again, like you said, I'm fully confident that we can weather this storm and get through it. It is going to be a turbulent storm, and we do need to take care of our families during it, but with full faith that that means there is a brighter future ahead.

Chris Martenson: Well said. I really agree with all of that, and yeah, I came across a Yume quote the other day that I hadn't heard before. I was surprised because I know a lot about them. And he said, "People don’t have ideas. Ideas have people." And I totally agree with that that there's a thing trying to come through into that collective consciousness, and I can feel it, and people like you and myself -- people out there are wrestling with that because, like any birth, this thing is not coming out just fully formed. Its like got to be wrestled out, but there is something that's trying to come through, and I'm really excited to be part of like trying to figure that out knowing that I'm probably slinging hash at a soiree that won't be over until the last aperitif is done deep into the night. So this next 1000 years is going to be pretty awesome.

I'm sorry I can't see all of them, but this is a really big moment I think is what's going on here. So it helps to have that framing to sort of say look at the big things so you can get oriented to what's actually happening and not get bought into their game because their game is really about fear and small and it's distracting, and it's trying to keep us separated from each other. I get it. I understand why they do it that way. It's not how I would approach it.

Christian: Right and compliance, right? And so this is the most important conversation that we can all be having right now and that's why I appreciate Chris you're having it and using this channel for that purpose, but it's bigger than it. It's all of us. When you look at experiments like the Asch conformity experiment where a whole room of people are sort of like tricked into doing weird things and then it only took one person, one critical thinker, and I'm talking to you if you listening to this program right now to say this is silly. I'm not doing this right now, and then the rest of the room said it is silly.

If he's not going to do it, I'm not going to do it. You can see this when you go into a supermarket and don’t wear a mask and you get some scowls, but then you get this one guy who is like, well, wait a minute. If he's not going to do this, I'm not going to do this, and he takes it off. So you can experience that and you just have to be that person right now and have these conversations. It's no longer weird to talk about it. Like you said, it's not a conspiracy theory anymore. These are no longer weird fringed topics that make you a freak. This is the Zygos moving, and it's the most important conversation we should all be having right now. So have it. Do it.

Chris Martenson: Yeah, and it's exciting because instead of saying I'm going to live into this sort of very, thin, narrow, shallow consumer life that I've sort of been bred into and say, wait a minute, what do I want to do with my life? Who am I going to be? What am I here to do? It becomes existential like that, but it should be, right? Every generation wrestles with this. You go all the way back to the Seneca's time way back when and people were always asking those bigger questions, which is what is this all about? And now, that's what's up for grabs again, and the answer I have is that we are either the participants or observers of whatever comes next. And that's fine to be an observer, but I want to be a participant. I want to be in that creator class. I want to meet the people who actually are nudging the story so that it goes this way instead of that way, you know?

Christian: Yeah. It would be fine to be an observer if things were going the right way, but at this point you can see what they're doing and that is not the world that I'm prepared to leave to my sons. So yeah, I'm becoming an active participant as wholly as I can.

Chris Martenson: Yeah. Well, good. In closing, so where would you send people? Iceagefarmer.com of course, your Twitter iceagefarmer, same moniker for YouTube, but how can people support you, follow your work, do all that best?

Christian: Yeah, iceagefarmer.com is the best way to find me. There's a few different ways to support the show at iceagefarmer.com/support and I would very much love to hear from people, from traders or people that are farmers or people that are in the retail industry and seeing trends, anyone. I just love talking to people and would love to hear from you at [email protected].

Chris Martenson: Great. Well, thank you so much for your time today. Keep doing what you're doing. Let's hope the ban hammer doesn’t come down anytime soon, but if it does we'll know where to find you.

Christian: Perfect. Chris, thanks so much.

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40 Comments

  • Wed, Dec 16, 2020 - 7:29pm

    #1
    Mysterymet

    Mysterymet

    Status: Silver Member

    Joined: May 23 2020

    Posts: 390

    3

    Interesting article on the land hurricane we had this summer

    Derecho Damage Begins to Unfold: Estimated 37.7 Million Acres of Farmland Impacted


    This storm seriously damaged crops and equipment. Images of twisted silos and knocked over grain wagons and tractors are common. However, Iowas farmers are pretty resilient people.

    this has been a strange year with the virus and the impact on agriculture as well as the major flooding and other issues that seem to have caused China to increase imports.

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  • Thu, Dec 17, 2020 - 6:03am

    #2
    VTGothic

    VTGothic

    Status: Gold Member

    Joined: Jan 05 2020

    Posts: 786

    2

    Excellent conversation, guys

    Wow! This conversation deepened and broadened absolutely beautifully! Thanks Chris and Christian. I'll be sharing this one.

     

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  • Thu, Dec 17, 2020 - 6:54am

    #3

    Afridev

    Status: Bronze Member

    Joined: Oct 11 2013

    Posts: 156

    1

    Unrestricted

    Loved the interview. It's great to see smart minds exchange in an open, deep and respectful way.

    Don't know if this link was ever shared on PP, but I think highly relevant to understanding the bigger picture of what is happening: https://www.oodaloop.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/unrestricted.pdf

    Probably not the right place to enter with this, but I don't see another place where it could be relevant (unless there would be a specific section that would be made for 'Sensemaking')...

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  • Thu, Dec 17, 2020 - 8:58am

    #4
    brushhog

    brushhog

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    Same old pattern, very little to do with climate change

    Money printing > inflation > price controls > shortages > rise of black market > collapse of government authority > wide spread prosperity > rebuild structures > psychopaths get into power > corruption > Money printing >>>>>

    History is the story of human nature playing itself out over and over again.

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  • Thu, Dec 17, 2020 - 12:20pm

    #5

    000

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    1

    No soy ingenua, soy optimista. Beet Coin!

    https://www.vaneck.com/blogs/digital-assets/the-investment-case-for-bitcoin/

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  • Thu, Dec 17, 2020 - 12:21pm

    #6

    000

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    Joined: Dec 10 2013

    Posts: 321

    1

    Where Have We Heard This All Before?

    https://www.smallplanet.org/diet-for-a-small-planet

    https://www.smallplanet.org/diet-for-a-small-planet

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  • Thu, Dec 17, 2020 - 12:26pm

    jvanname

    jvanname

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    jvanname said:

    I kind of like beets the vegetable, but Bitcoin fans have lost all objectivity since their response to how Bitcoin has a mining algorithm that was never designed to advance science is a complete and total hatred of science.

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  • Thu, Dec 17, 2020 - 1:02pm

    brushhog

    brushhog

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    Bitcoin, the emperors new clothes

    Once upon a time a shrewd tailor received an audience with the emperor. He convinced him that he spun a fabric so fine that only people with extraordinary taste and intellect could discern it. In fact, coarse ignorant people could not see it at all.

    He sold the emperor nothing and called it a masterpiece. The emperor and all his attendants, not wanting to seem inferior, pretended to see it.

    This is the same syndrome we are witnessing with Bitcoin. Nobody knows what it is, but everybody pretends to understand it. If you call it nothing, you are denounced as an ignoramous for not understanding the nuance of technology and "block chain, peer to peer data mining, bla, bla, bla".

    If you dig a little deeper into these arguments you'll find that the people making them dont understand it either. Nobody wants to admit that the emperor has no clothes because nobody wants to appear to be a fool.

    Look, at the end of the day, can we all admit that bitcoins aren't really there? Show me a bitcoin...you can't. What does it look like? What does it feel like? Where is it? Lets not lose touch with reality, people. Those are the basic dimensions of existence, lol/.

    Bitcoiners have been sold nothing, and at the end of the day bitcoin will return to it's intrinsic value of nothing. Its just a mania and the last greatest fool will be stuck wearing an invisible suit of clothes.

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  • Thu, Dec 17, 2020 - 1:38pm

    mememonkey

    Status: Bronze Member

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    5

    Beets are the Enemy

    Jvaname,

    Your pro Beet stance seems a tad hypocritical in light of your “advancing science” as the sole qualification for good vs evil.  Last time I checked  Beets have made no advancements in science.

    Seriously,  your autistic like repetition of your anti bitcoin ‘algorithm doesn’t advance science’screed is as irritating as it is pedantic and irrelevant and even more so in this thread than the dedicated bitcoin threads you’ve managed to spam with what appears to be your sole insight.

    Give it a rest,

    mm

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  • Thu, Dec 17, 2020 - 1:40pm

    jvanname

    jvanname

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    Bitcoin, the emperors new clothes

    Actually, it is possible to understand Bitcoin. Here is the whitepaper that lays everything out bitcoin.pdf. The whitepaper is not that hard to read and it is not that long. However, the whitepaper requires you to understand what notions such as cryptographic hash functions and digital signatures are, so if you are afraid of math, you need to either overcome your fear or be content in not understanding anything about Bitcoin. It is definitely worth it to read the paper since people should attempt to understand what they are investing in.

     

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  • Thu, Dec 17, 2020 - 1:44pm

    jvanname

    jvanname

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    Re mememonkey

    Now you are making fun of me because you claim I am autistic? You are truly a despicable person. You have absolutely no credibility whatsoever. It is amazing how low people would go just because they hate science. But then again, Bitcoin attracts the worst of the worst since Bitcoin has a mining algorithm that was never designed to advance science.

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  • Thu, Dec 17, 2020 - 1:53pm

    #12
    Time2help

    Time2help

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    5

    Brawndo

    It's got what plants crave.

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  • Thu, Dec 17, 2020 - 2:23pm

    #13
    J keller

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    16

    Raising Rabbits

    Hi just wanted to say. If you do raise rabbits for food..PLEASE..do not lock them in the garage or basement..Think about how lock down felt to you..Rabbits have needs too like sun, grass at their feet and be able to jump and run..So please keeping rabbits in a small cage in a basement or garage is no better than factory farming..It is just smaller scale..No one deserves to be kept in a prison. Get a dog run and a dog house.I had rabbits and they loved it. They burrowed under the house and ran and played. So please have some compassion for the creatures that will save you from starvation. They deserve a little respect and love too. Thanks.

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  • Thu, Dec 17, 2020 - 5:05pm

    #14
    ZymurgencyMan

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    0

    Cyber Polygon

    Really happy to see Christian on PP having a bar top discussion with The Doctor. Great conversation. Paired perfectly with an English Olde Ale while I sat at my own bar with the feeling that I got the lucky seat next to two prophets discussing the future loud enough so I could hear. Was hoping the topic of the cyber polygon or cyber pandemic Christian mentioned in one of his videos last month might rise with the foam, but I guess the reset was discussed and it’s all part of it. Curious if anyone else here has any input on the subject though?

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  • Thu, Dec 17, 2020 - 9:10pm

    #15
    MGRS

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    Inspired -- thank you Chris

    I wasn't terribly enthusiastic to listen to this interview but I think it turned out to be one of my favorites ever.  I hope you explore these issues of meaning, liberty, purpose, and stepping into your role in the world so much more, Chris.  That doesn't even capture all of the greatness I heard coming through in this interview, as I'm still processing what I just heard.

    Going to listen to this one again tomorrow.  I'm inspired.

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  • Fri, Dec 18, 2020 - 5:38am

    Chris Martenson

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    Re: Inspired

    I wasn't terribly enthusiastic to listen to this interview but I think it turned out to be one of my favorites ever.  I hope you explore these issues of meaning, liberty, purpose, and stepping into your role in the world so much more, Chris.  That doesn't even capture all of the greatness I heard coming through in this interview, as I'm still processing what I just heard.

    Going to listen to this one again tomorrow.  I'm inspired.

    I know right?  I too was very pleasantly surprised at the direction this interview went.  Pretty much the main value has nothing at all to do with soybeans.

    At least to me.

    These are really big times.  A new era is coming. Things are happening very quickly.  The choices we each have to make are enormous, but for me they all boil down to this one idea:

    How do you want to be remembered when all is said and done?  

    Maybe it's my Swedish/Finnish heritage and some Viking remnants which whisper the idea that we're really here on earth to amuse the gods.  They want a fine play to enjoy so you've got to really play into your role.

    In more New Age terms, we're each here to accomplish some sort of a soul quest.  To use our gifts to accomplish something that wants to get done, and we're each possible conduits for those things - but only if we consciously step up.

    As Carl Jung said; "People don't have ideas, ideas have people."

    I love that quote.  It fits with my entire adult life.  When an idea has you, your only decision is whether to dance with it or not.  Either way, that's fine.  Just know that if you pass, someone else will 'steal your idea' and run off with it leaving a little hollow feeling inside.  Or maybe a big one.

    But it wasn't ever your idea, you were its (possible) vessel.

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  • Fri, Dec 18, 2020 - 6:00am

    #17
    whoknew79

    whoknew79

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    2

    whoknew79 said:

    This past spring my plan was to get sheep on our fields, but I had just moved here in November 2019 and it was too much, too fast. I hope to get sheep this spring.

    I am currently looking into Gabe Brown. Thank you for that recommendation. What are the components that you are putting into your field seed mixture?

    Thank you,

    Will

     

    On a side note, my wife and I had lived in what could be described as a Peak Prosperity farm house in central Vermont for 10 years. It was a house that we transformed into a resilient homestead in part because of the information from Peak Prosperity. Unfortunately, it became clear that it was not rural enough and we needed more land to continue our work. The new owners must have had an abundance of food this last summer and fall. Now, we start again. Fruit trees and berry bushes were the first to go in because we know how long it takes. Unfortunately, it was unbelievably dry this season in this section of Vermont and we just could not keep up with all of the watering. A few things didn't make it.

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  • Fri, Dec 18, 2020 - 9:17am

    Mohammed Mast

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    brushhog

    WOW I see juvenile has company.

    You sort of violate the premise here that assertions are meaningless.

    You also provide no data.

    We live in a digital world. Using your illogic you have no existence. PP has no existence, Chris Martenson has no existence. We exist as digital entities in a digital space called the internet. Which does not exist because i cannot touch or hold it. Luddite much?

    You assert that it will cease to exist or have value. That my friend is a statement of the obvious of the universe. Nothing lasts forever. Thousands of fiat currencies have ceased to exist. That did not stop people from using them. Billions of people use the USD, yet 97% of them exist only digitally.

    Of course anticipating your response being "well gold will last forever" I will respond yes it will last as long as the universe. It is also no longer money. Any value placed on it is purely subjective.

    I would have far more respect for your comments if they had some basis in reality and if instead of assertions you provided data. Clearly you are ill informed. BYE

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  • Fri, Dec 18, 2020 - 9:31am

    #19
    jvanname

    jvanname

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    Mohammed Mast

    Mohammed Mast-Can you please can it with the name calling and your anti-science rhetoric? It makes you look really bad when you say things including “Who gives a shit about advancing science? I certainly don’t.” Stop openly advertising your foolishness.

    P.S. I am not surprised by the behavior of Bitcoiners like Mohammed Mast. Bitcoin has a mining algorithm that was never designed to advance science, so Bitcoin attracts science haters like Mohammed Mast.

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  • Fri, Dec 18, 2020 - 5:11pm

    #20

    Beckett Bennett

    Status: Silver Member

    Joined: Feb 06 2011

    Posts: 114

    0

    IceAgeFarmer Update - 250k chickens killed in fire - again

     





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  • Fri, Dec 18, 2020 - 5:53pm

    #21
    Mysterymet

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    Why does it matter if bitcoin advances science or doesn’t?

    Seriously, why? Many people are viewing it as a means of protecting wealth much like gold, silver, land etc. choosing to buy into bitcoin or not should not depend on your views of science. I generally do not base my investing strategy on science unless you want to count statistics and probability...

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  • Fri, Dec 18, 2020 - 5:57pm

    Mysterymet

    Mysterymet

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    2

    Chickens die in a fire... happens quite a bit

    Farm fires are more common than anyone wants to admit from field fire to grain bin fire to chicken barn fire to hog house fire. Having been a volunteer fire fighter before in rural areas I will say that in my experience hog house fires are the worst hands down. It did NOT smell like bacon!

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  • Fri, Dec 18, 2020 - 7:23pm

    #23
    Mohammed Mast

    Mohammed Mast

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    1

    jvanname the TROLL

    I hate to hijack a thread but the situation is getting out of hand.

    javanname has up til now 69 posts. I cannot remember a single one which offers any actionable strategy for achieving resilience.

    As far as I can tell the sum total of what he has to offer is as follows

    "P.S. I am not surprised by the behavior of Bitcoiners like Mohammed Mast. Bitcoin has a mining algorithm that was never designed to advance science, so Bitcoin attracts science haters like Mohammed Mast."

    69 posts of this very same thing, am I the only one here who sees a problem? Does anyone find this in anyway related to resilience, the three E's or the ethos of this site?

    Does this sort of behavior foster dialog? Does it foster an examination of issues? Is it helpful to anyone?

    Does anyone feel compelled to make this issue known to the Owners?

    This is a regular feature of Facebook. Do the members here want to see this turn into Facebook?

    Just asking for a friend

     

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  • Fri, Dec 18, 2020 - 8:35pm

    #24
    jvanname

    jvanname

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    They see me trollin. They hatin. . .

    Mohammed Mast-My name is not Javanname. I am not a Java man (aka a Homo erectus erectus with a Cactus erectus growing on his lawn and a pet Felis cactus using the Cactus erectus as a scratching post). I am not Java the script or Jabba the Hutt (though I do code in Javascript; how do you think I made my profile picture? And yes, Java and JavaScript are completely different) or Pizza the Hutt either (though I did eat some pizza today). When talking about me, please have the decency to spell my name correctly. When quoting me, you should explain why I said the things I have said so I don't have to. I have called out your behavior for saying things like  "Who gives a shit about advancing science? I certainly don’t.” and I have given an explanation for why someone with such an attitude would be attracted to Bitcoin.
    "Does anyone find this in anyway related to resilience, the three E's or the ethos of this site?"-Hmm. Let's see.

    Economy-CHECK

    Energy-CHECK

    Environment-Close enough

    "Does anyone feel compelled to make this issue known to the Owners?"-This is coming from a person who has said "Who gives a shit about advancing science? I certainly don’t.” Nearly everything you say to me is an insult. That is not good.

    But I agree that this is not the best thread to talk about Bitcoin.

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  • Sat, Dec 19, 2020 - 1:18am

    #25
    David Henry

    David Henry

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    1

    food security

    Enjoyed the talk a lot, although I wished I could have heard more about Christian's background. Is he a farmer? I'd be interested in hearing not just the news he collects from the internet but his personal experiences, especially weather/climate related.

    I think the points being made about food security are really important (and like so many other resilience related issues) not given enough main stream attention. For me, I think about food security (at least for the mainstream US) being less about getting enough calories (at least right now) and more about growing life sustaining, nutritionally dense food. Chris' talks with Joel Salatin (a favorite of mine) are always fantastic and so life affirming. And I've been following Curtis Stone as I seek to ramp up my garden from producing salad (fun stuff like cherry tomatoes, swiss chard, kale) to calorie crops (potatoes, root crops and dry beans) that would actually last us through a winter.

    The difference I have with Ice Age Farmer (I've seen a few of his videos from several months ago) is that his logic seems to be very strictly "global cooling (maunder minimum) = declines in food production." When crops are killed by a cold snap or colder weather depresses production this thesis makes sense. But just as often he gives us cases of drought, or floods, or derecho, or heat waves. These things don't naturally follow from global cooling. These would seem to more logically flow from abrupt, human induced climate change, which Christian seems to be skeptical of.

    Paul Beckwith, a lecturer in climate science in Canada, has started doing videos explaining the mechanisms by which abrupt human-induced climate change has already started lowering crop yields and threatens the possibilities of truly extreme crop failures in the future. His science and logic is highly rigorous and the possibilities are really scary.  It's a complex situation but 2 brief examples would be: with diminished temperature difference between mid latitudes and the arctic, the jet stream slows down and can get 'stuck.' A second difference is that for every 1 degree celsius temperature increase, the atmosphere holds 7% more moisture, meaning increasingly violent rains become more the norm.





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  • Sat, Dec 19, 2020 - 9:28am

    #26
    EddieLarry

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    Are American Farmers stupid? I don’t think so!

    If China is buying all those soybeans, and Brazil is experiencing drought, won’t our farmers be ramping up Planting for next year?  They must be making lots of money on these sales.  Or are we saying , we might fall short on supply before harvest?  Meat producers could hedge that situation, if they are informed.

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  • Sat, Dec 19, 2020 - 10:22am

    #27
    Kate

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    KathyS said don't forget to balance your trace minerals...

    Not all soils are blessed with enough zinc, copper, manganese, magnesium and such, which are all critical to health.  Take a look at Steve Solomon's book The Intelligent Gardener.  He has the easiest approach for deciding what is needed and how to put it down.  Based on Albrecht's long ago work.  He also explains which labs can do the kind of soil testing that you need to make these decisions.  You send it to them in the mail and they send the results by email. For gardens you can order what you need and apply it.  For larger areas like pastures, you give the livestock what is missing in their pasture plants and hay, based on tissue testing of their forages, and they will lay it down for you over the years.  Without this step, you can end up with food you produce to eat that does not provide all of the minerals that you need to be healthy and strong.  Check out The Intelligent Gardener.

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  • Sat, Dec 19, 2020 - 10:34am

    Kate

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    Black Lake Organic for buying minerals for amending.

    Forget to add that one of the only places I know of to buy the minerals you need for your garden, or if you need to supplement one or two things for livestock, in addition to purchased salt/supplement mixes is Black Lake Organic in the Seattle area.  They will ship just about anywhere.  They have a good web site listing of what they offer.  Gary Kline started this service many years ago and is now one of the only ones still offering it.  They also do soil assessments through the mail.  Good folks.  We are watching for Gary to publish all all encompassing book of his life's work, hopefully soon.

     

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  • Sat, Dec 19, 2020 - 11:44am

    #29
    treebeard

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    Robert Kennedy Jr. nailed it

    Don't know how many of you have already heard this, he kind of nails it.  It is very much in line with the beginning part of the conversation.





    As well prepared as I am, still, every time I hear this stuff, still feel like I am not moving fast enough.  Not doing quite enough.

    The great effort of internalizing the simple statement that to know and not to do, is not to know.  When knowledge is complete, action is complete.

    Or perhaps a better why to say that is when knowledge becomes wisdom, action is complete.

    Surprised that this has not been taken down yet.

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  • Sun, Dec 20, 2020 - 2:36pm

    agitating prop

    agitating prop

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    Maunder Minimum

    From what I have read about the Maunder minimum, the results were not uniform cooling, but climate instability. There are so many variables that produce weather a warming or cooling trend becomes almost secondary.

    You can get long cold snaps due to a warming trend. It's important to dig down to establish underlying causes. Our current climate is unstable, due in large part to human induced introduction of greenhouse gases.

    The worst effect of global warming, is ongoing droughts, not  warmer weather. That, we can deal with. Shorter growing seasons during cold snaps? There are work arounds. Persistent drought? Not so much--and certainly not when droughts are coupled with monsoon types of rain events that kill crops just as handily as dry weather.

    Humans will be migrating to the fewer and smaller goldilocks zones, in the future. It will require tremendous good will, compassion and a global governmental response to help those left behind.

    Cooperative farming, intentional communities, within goldilocks zones will be imperative and encouraged, imho.

     

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  • Fri, Dec 25, 2020 - 6:33am

    #31
    robie robinson

    robie robinson

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    Is a

    transcript coming?

     

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  • Wed, Dec 30, 2020 - 8:44am

    #32
    Wendy

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    Transcript?

    Soon?

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  • Mon, Jan 18, 2021 - 10:08pm

    #33
    Cj Sloane

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    Cj Sloane said:

    I really disliked this interview. It's too bad because I've been running a meat-centric homestead since 2008. I got my PDC in 2011 with Geoff Lawton.

    My first shock was this, "Just to name the pandemic shutting down the meat plants earlier in the year,..." except he actually said PLANDEMIC. I went back and listened a 2nd time.

    I was hoping it was a slip of the tongue but then later he says this, "You can see this when you go into a supermarket and don’t wear a mask and you get some scowls, but then you get this one guy who is like, well, wait a minute. If he's not going to do this, I'm not going to do this, and he takes it off. "

    So this guy is advocating refusing to wear a mask and there is zero push back from Chris. Wow.

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  • Wed, Feb 10, 2021 - 1:53pm

    #34
    cgarcia

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    What's the best feed for farm animals?

    Pardon my ignorance but what's the best feed for farm animals?

    Corn, soybeans, other?

    My uncle said that he feeds some hydroponic follage to his cows and they get noticeably happy. I never got to ask what kind of crop was that.

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  • Wed, Feb 10, 2021 - 3:01pm

    J keller

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    J keller said:

    The best feed is natural feed. If a cow..grass lands. If a pig they eat nuts and all sorts of things in the forest and field and they like scraps. In the wild most animals would not be eating soybeans or corn. Go natural its the best choice.

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  • Wed, Feb 10, 2021 - 5:10pm

    #36
    Hohhot

    Hohhot

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    1

    Bamboo as animal fodder

    If you research this topic, you'll find bamboo leaves and shoots are perfectly fine for ruminants. They like it too. The great part is that it grows quickly, is completely autonomously renewable, and certain varieties can withstand snow. Some folks are experimenting with using it for winter fodder versus hay.

    https://thegreenergrassfarm.com/2015/01/19/experiment-growing-bamboo-for-fodder/

    Nutritive value of bamboo for livestock

    https://www.ars.usda.gov/ARSUserFiles/13151/Nutritive%20Quality%20of%20%20Bamboo.pdf

     

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  • Wed, Feb 10, 2021 - 6:19pm

    Mohammed Mast

    Mohammed Mast

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    bamboo

    i don't have livestock. i grow bamboo for me to eat

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  • Thu, Feb 11, 2021 - 3:39am

    #38
    TamHob

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    3

    animal fodders

    If anyone wants to discuss this in more depth, perhaps in the agriculture and permaculture section of the living systems forum, then I'd love to swap ideas re post-industrial fodders for a low input/low-medium output mixed small farm situation.

    Cows and sheep: meat animals are pretty straightforward if you choose heritage breeds originally bred for your climate which hasn't been excessively inbred by hobbyists. Pasture (a mix of many grasses for carbs, legumes for fats and protein and herbs/bushes for vitamins, minerals and medicinal compounds) is best and requires minimal effort beyond correct rotational grazing to produce. Most places without significant snow can 'stockpile' pasture in situ for feeding out during lean seasons, if you rotationally graze. If snow gets too deep for the animals to graze through then silage and hay are the traditional answer. You can grow all sorts of higher calorie feeds like maize, alfalfa, kudzu, bamboo, seaweed etc but most of them require much higher inputs to get useful fodder and/or have other downsides. Dairy cows are trickier, even heritage lower yield breeds need much more calories and protein year round. Root crops were popular in Europe to supplement pasture or silage/hay. Never been associated with dairy sheep and goats are too smart for me. There is a useful old book 'Feeds and feeding' which can be used to calculate balanced feeds for all sorts of animals using what was available in 1910. The website 'Matron of Husbandry'/Throwback at Trapper Creek hasn't been updated in a few years but the archives have a wealth of information about handling a small rotationally grazed, pastured beef herd and integrating a family milk cow on a low input system.

    Poultry - geese and ducks are much easier than chickens if you want low-input bird meat, provided you have year round green grass (geese) or a fairly big pond (ducks and geese). The scraps from the humans and all the other animals on a farm + a large compost heap or forested area should be able to support a small flock of heritage egg layers (6-7 hens, replacement chicks, 1 rooster), with the extra roosters and old hens each year turned into casseroles or soup.

    I've never had pigs. I love bacon and they can be helpful for weed destruction/roto-tilling but based on my friend's experience with them, I would add them last to a farm. They are clever, incredibly destructive and as essentially obligate omnivores can be tricky to (legally) feed on a low-input basis. Running them at low density in oak/fruit/nut woodlands with a pasture understory seems to be ideal but the trees need to be well and truly mature. Lysine and methionine needs are pretty high for even heritage breeds to grow, traditionally this was supplied by dairy residues and/or swill feeding meat scraps. These may be difficult to source or illegal in your location. The woodland situation allows the pigs access to bugs and small animals to snack on, the acorns and nuts have methionine, which may allow you to get away with just using field peas and beans for the lysine, especially if you're not trying to absolutely max out growth.

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  • Thu, Feb 11, 2021 - 9:20am

    MarkM

    MarkM

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    @TamHob

    Thanks for bringing Matron of Husbandry to mind. I followed her blog a long time ago.

    I would be interested in an ag/rotational grazing/stockpiled forage discussion.

    Maybe brushhog would join in with thoughts on his 4 ley rotation.

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  • Mon, Mar 22, 2021 - 7:01am

    #40
    MyBiz

    MyBiz

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    MyBiz said:

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