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  • Podcast

    Robert Kiyosaki: Entrepreneurship Is Your Shield Against the Coming Wealth Transfer

    Advice from Rich Dad
    by Adam Taggart

    Sunday, March 16, 2014, 4:11 PM

I believe there's an entrepreneur in everybody. 

~ Robert Kiyosaki

Last weekend, Chris and I traveled to Phoenix, AZ, where we spent several days with Robert Kiyosaki, author of the popular personal finance book Rich Dad, Poor Dad, which has sold over 26 million copies to-date.

Robert had read The Crash Course, and it resonated so strongly with him that he purchased copies for his staff and made it the theme of his company's leadership conference this spring. Together with his wife, Kim, and his council of Rich Dad advisors, we spent many hours discussing the future implications of the Three E's with business leaders from across Robert's global organization.

Kiyosaki's great passion is financial education; specifically, teaching people how to take control of their destiny by becoming financially independent through business ownership and investment income:

The more money you print, the poorer we get. It has happened throughout history. Yet, people get up every morning and go to work. They work for money. If they get fired, they just get another job to work for more money. After a while, you have to wake up and ask why you are doing this. If they are printing money, why are you working for money?

That's what happened for me back in 1983. I just woke up and said I could not know what I know and allow this to go on. If you read my book Rich Dad, Poor Dad, people don't really get the message in the first chapter. The title of the first chapter is "The Rich Don’t Work for Money". That's why they are rich. Yet, you go to school to get a job to work for money. The more you are working for money, the poorer you are getting because of inflation and taxes. 

The rich print our own money. We have assets.

There are different kinds of assets in the world. That was Rich Dad, Poor Dad. My poor dad worked for a paycheck. My rich dad worked to create assets. He was an entrepreneur. He built hotels. He built restaurants. He did not sell them; he just ran them as an entrepreneur. He built assets. If you read Rich Dad, Poor Dad, the definition of an asset is something that puts money in your pocket whether you work or not. A liability takes money from your pocket.

My Rich Dad used to teach me that playing Monopoly: four green houses for one red hotel. With one green house, you get $10.00. That is an asset. There are financial assets, real property assets like real estate and IP assets, intellectual property assets. Every time I write a book, it is an asset, and more and more money comes in.

The point here is that I am always converting cash into an asset. That is the difference. That was what Rich Dad, Poor Dad was about. 

What caught Robert's attention most in The Crash Course is the magnitude of the coming wealth transfer; where tertiary wealth (paper-based claims) will be forgone in favor of second and primary forms of wealth (productive assets and raw materials). More than ever, he believes entrepreneurial skills will be the most important determinant for ensuring you are on the right side of that wealth transfer. 

What you saw in the workshop is my team, my advisors, the team of nine. We are tight. We have my accountants, my attorneys, my guys who raise capital for me and my sales guys, all that stuff. We are a team. That is what makes you rich. I talked about this. You have to be a master of pieces. I put accountants, attorneys and bankers all together. That is how I get rich. In school, rather than being a master of the pieces you become one of the pieces. You come out of school as an accountant or attorney. The entrepreneur comes in and puts you together with the rest of their team. You are either the master of pieces as an entrepreneur or one of the pieces from the school system. What you guys are doing right now is becoming the master of the pieces, putting your own team together, or your community, or your tribe. That is what is going to cause us to survive. 

Especially when it comes to the world of money, as you and I will probably agree, that's probably the most corrupt of all. The moment they could print money, it became more corrupt. For people to go to school and work to make a high salary, you are probably going down the wrong trail. The more money they print, the harder you have to work. Nietzsche says the more we print money, the poorer we get and the more impoverished people get.

You had better start thinking differently. How do you convert your money into an asset?

Click the play button below to listen to Chris' interview with Robert Kiyosaki (32m:09s):

Transcript

Chris Martenson: Welcome to this Peak Prosperity podcast. I am your host Chris Martenson. Today I get to invite onto the show somebody I am very excited to invite on the show, Robert Kiyosaki, American investor, businessman, self-help author and motivational speaker. I just had the opportunity to spend three days with Robert, his lovely wife Kim, his team and some select people who were invited to a three-day seminar, where the topic happened to have been my book. I was invited as the author to come and provide some additional color on top of the book. Robert, thank you so much for joining me today.

Robert Kiyosaki: Chris, thank you. You and Adam were just fantastic additions to our three-day in Phoenix, Arizona. We have a lot of seminars throughout the world, but we have a very closed seminar twice a year in Phoenix. You were it, your book, everything. It was so nice to have been with you.

Chris Martenson: Thank you. Adam has had a great time as well. We have been talking about it ever since. There were a number of things that really struck me. One is that you are a student of history, even more so than I am. I love history. I love the way it is going to inform us about what is coming. One of the themes that came out was that there is really nothing new under the sun. Whatever is going to happen tomorrow already happened yesterday. I believe that is how you put it. What do you mean by that, for people listening?

Robert Kiyosaki: For those who came to the seminar, I showed pictures of a thing called the Weimar Republic. You can go to any website and pull them out. It is what happens when money is no longer money. In other words, we are all so busy. We go to school and get a job to work for money. They never tell you what money is. One day, money is no longer money. What you are talking about has happened through history. It has happened for thousands of years. Once somebody figures out what money is, they aberrate it. They change it.

It started in Roman times when they got your coins and they debased it. They put base metals like lead, nickel and tin instead of silver and gold. Any time that has happened, poverty goes across the land. Mises also said that. He said that when you aberrate and extend credit, poverty increases. My whole shtick for all these years with Rich Dad Poor Dad and my other book Rich Dad’s Prophecy is that Federal Reserve money, printed money, any fiat currency today whether it is the yen or the euro, is impoverishing people.

That is why we were talking about it. One day we kind of wake up as adults and ask "What are we going to do about this?" In 1984, when I realized poverty was going to increase across the world, I did not know what to do. I just had to do something. That is what I wanted to talk to my friends about, the vision I saw for the future. You and Adam share the same vision. What happens if money is no longer money? What happens to society then?

Chris Martenson: It is a very interesting point. Money is tangible. It is real for all of our lives. That is how it really feels to us. But that is just an illusion. Once you study how money is actually created and you discover it is made out of thin air, then you realize that may be good or bad, but we had better be paying attention to how much is being created out of thin air. You and I share a number of the same charts that we might put up. One is this absolute exponential increase in money and debt, which are claims on real things.

You and I look over into the real world and we see that production is not increasing exponentially at the rate. There is a huge gap between the claims and the real stuff. My point of view is that it is better to have your hands on the real stuff because there will be a moment when people suddenly wake up. It will be a sociological event. We will say, “About all that money you have been printing, Federal Reserve—I don't feel so good.”

Robert Kiyosaki: Right. I say the same thing. The more money you print, the poorer we get. It has happened throughout history. Yet, people get up every morning and go to work. They work for money. If they get fired, they just get another job to work for more money. After a while, you have to wake up and ask "Why am I doing this? If they are printing money, why am I working for money?" That is what happened for me back in 1983. I just woke up and said I could not know what I know and allow this to go on. If you read my book Rich Dad, Poor Dad, people do not really get the message in the first chapter. The title of the first chapter is "The Rich Don’t Work for Money." That is why they are rich. Yet, you go to school to get a job to work for money. The more you are working for money, the poorer you are getting because of inflation and taxes. "What do you mean? I am making more money." But you are getting poorer. That is what we are saying. Isn’t it true?

Chris Martenson: If rich do not work for money, what do they work for?

Robert Kiyosaki: We print our own money. We have assets. There are different kinds of assets in the world. That was Rich Dad, Poor Dad. My poor dad worked for a paycheck. My rich dad worked to create assets. He was an entrepreneur. He built hotels. He built restaurants. He did not sell them; he just ran them as an entrepreneur. He built assets. If you read Rich Dad, Poor Dad, the definition of an asset is something that puts money in your pocket whether you work or not. A liability takes money from your pocket. My rich dad used to teach me that playing Monopoly, four green houses or one red hotel. With one green house, you get $10.00. That is an asset. There are financial assets, real property assets like real estate and IP assets, intellectual property assets. Every time I write a book, it is an asset, and more and more money comes in. The point here is that I am always converting cash into an asset. That is the difference. That was what Rich Dad, Poor Dad was about.

Chris Martenson: One of my first moves—I came to this story much later than you did, by the time I finally arrived at my own conclusions about where we were headed. One of the things I decided to do was take my physical paper dollars off the table and slide them over into gold and silver for a period of time, as I waited for some sort of a transition to happen. That was back in 2002. I hate to say it, but it has been fairly lucrative and profitable for me, at least on paper when I transfer these things back into paper assets if I do. I was trying to put my money into a place where it was safer, safe from the forces that I could see happening, even back in 2002. Excessive money printing and really poor fiscal control at the government level, both of those fiscal and monetary policies were just trying to print our way to prosperity, something I did not believe in.

Robert Kiyosaki: Right. They are taxing and printing. That is why the middle class is shrinking. That is why poverty is increasing in America. As Mises said, you expand credit, you impoverish the people. This has happened throughout history. Every time I see Mr. Greenspan, Bernanke or Mrs. Yellen standing up there talking about printing money, I wonder how in the world we got so stupid as American people. How did we get so stupid we can listen to these guys talking about money printing and thinking it is making us richer? Because they must know better. Do you think they know better Chris?

Chris Martenson: They have to know better. They have to. How could they not?

Robert Kiyosaki: If they know better and they continue to do it, then they are criminal. They are impoverishing a great country. I would say the American dream has turned into the entitlement mentality. I am not blaming the poor for having the entitlement mentality. I would say the entitlement mentality starts at the top of the country, not the bottom. That is really the problem, as the American dream goes, that they can make a better life for themselves, they say, "Well, I am entitled to a better life." There is a very big difference.

Chris Martenson: That is true. The amounts of welfare that are handed out on both the bottom and the top of the scale are staggering amounts. They are just huge. They are just wealth transfers, of course, coming out of the middle class and flowing in both directions. You mentioned the impoverishment of intelligence in the country. Let’s talk about education for a minute. I am a big believer of this idea that our educational system was designed to create people to work in factories. I think it did that brilliantly. But people do not work in factories anymore. We do have people coming out of school without the appropriate context to know what is happening when a Yellen, Bernanke or Greenspan says they are printing money. What are your views on that? How do we move in a better direction?

Robert Kiyosaki: That is why my rich dad and poor dad are opposites. My poor dad always said go to school and get a job. My rich dad said I would never learn to be an entrepreneur in school, so why go to school? He said to learn to be an entrepreneur and create jobs. The problem with most people leaving school is that they do not have the skill set to be entrepreneurs. The skill set for entrepreneurs is different than the skill sets for employees. For example, I have a college degree, a Bachelor of Science in Naval Architecture. I have never used it. When somebody asks how much money I make from my college degree, I say nothing because I do not use it. When I came back from Vietnam in 1973 as a Marine pilot, my poor dad said go to school and get a job, but my rich dad said I had better learn how to sell. Those are two different points of view.

I went to school to learn how to sell, whereas my poor dad wanted me to go to school and learn I don't know what—to climb the corporate ladder. After I learned how to sell, my rich dad said I still had to learn how to use debt because money is debt. Most financial experts say to get out of debt, which is good if you do not have any financial education. If you want to be rich, you have to know how to handle debt. It is called financing. How do you finance something and get richer with it? The third thing I had to learn was taxes. As you know, every time they print a dollar, two things happen. Inflation goes up and taxes go up. That is killing the people who are working for money. As long as you have a paycheck or you are on the cash society, your money is decreasing and your taxes are going up. That is the problem.

Chris Martenson: Let’s back up on debt for a second. I am regularly counseling people to get out of debt if they can, high yielding debt, non-productive debt and consumptive debt. What kind of debt are you talking about?

Robert Kiyosaki: There is good debt and bad debt. Consumption debt is always bad. Let’s say I go to dinner and I break out my American Express card because the dinner was $400. That dinner lasted an hour but the bill lasts forever. When I use debt to finance a piece of property or a business, even to bring a book out, that debt provides income each time. There is good debt and bad debt. Bad debt goes to buy liabilities like a house, a car, clothing and food. Good debt goes to buy assets, such as we are discussing. I am buying a hotel. Why am I buying the hotel? It has water rights and it has food. That is what I am buying it for, so I can produce from it. The idea is not consumption, but production. Good debt goes to production. Bad debt goes to consumption. Most people should get out of bad debt as consumption.

Chris Martenson: It is interesting. In your book Prophecy, you had put some timelines up. When you and I were comparing notes, they were eerily similar to some timelines I have had. In that timeline, you see some sort of a major market correction by 2016. When you peer over into that world of assets, which is one we are supposed to keep our eye on, right? It is just the equities, right? It is the stock market, our major signaling mechanism. Everybody is looking at the stock market. It is in the news every day. Is it up? Is it down? It is up and we are happy. You did not really believe in the stock market as a barometer of anything useful, did you?

Robert Kiyosaki: You and I had a similar experience. You put all this money into a mutual fund and some amount of money disappears. Where did the money go? I wrote another book called Who Took My Money. It is a system—there are the financial assets, which are stocks, bonds and mutual funds. There are real assets like real estate and oil wells. They produce stuff. I like the word you use, “claims.” The paper asset world is just a claim. It is so corrupt. It is so manipulated. There is no real value there. As you guys were telling my group of people, when you own a stock, you are the last guy in line. Everybody else gets paid before you when something bad happens. Stockholders are paid the least. They are the last guys standing in line, the stockholders. Why would you do that?

Chris Martenson: Yet that is what it is supposed to be when you are investing, you are supposed to be in stocks. It is an amazing feat of marketing. I think they have done an incredible job. I was just talking with another man today. His name is Michael Shuman. He talks about exactly what we are talking about, except he does it from the local investing side. He says that if you look at communities that are full of entrepreneurs, you have a lot of business start-ups and a lot of businesses that are thriving there, the per capita income is higher and the per capita job creation is higher. In every case, the defining factor is that these are real people who understand real value and how to provide it. They are providing it. That is where real prosperity comes from.

Robert Kiyosaki: Right. You look in communities where the entitlement mentality is alive and well. There is poverty. There is no production. It is a suck on production. It is all consumption or, "You owe me a living." It is horrifying, what has happened to the American dream. It has become the entitlement mentality, starting from the top. Ayn Rand warned us back in the 1950s that this was going to happen in her book Atlas Shrugged. It is happening. Today it is not Ayn Rand and Atlas Shrugged. It is The Hunger Games, where you have all these grotesque creatures in some major city that prey on the people who are producing. That is Washington, DC. None of the people are actually working out there. Atlas Shrugged has come true, and that is what is even more frightening.

Chris Martenson: I was horrified when George Orwell’s book 1984 started coming true in about 2003. It was almost like it was a blueprint. With Atlas Shrugged, you are right. It is literally following directly along the lines that she painted out at that point in time. Was it already obviously in motion when she was writing that? Did she make a killer prediction?

Robert Kiyosaki: You and I said this. It has been going on for thousands of years. Any time you have ambitious, greedy or ruthless people, the innocent people fall victim to it unless you fight back. If the people that control the money control everything, it is hard to fight back as a little person. That is why you and I concur, that we need to form our own little communities. I call them my "tribe." I have different tribes for different purposes. In the case of civil unrest, being a former Marine pilot, I have friends with guns. We are going to tribe up together. If it is a business, it is a different type of tribe and a different type of person. I have accountants and attorneys. I already have my house in the mountains ready to band together with my fellow Marines.

Chris Martenson: We are laughing about it, morbid humor. It is just sad that we can even have this conversation and it seems realistic. But, there is a wealth transfer coming up. That is what all my study of history shows me. It has been this way forever, for the same sets of reasons over time. Governments always end up following the same course of action. It seems easy to print. It fixes things. The budget seems to be fixed. John Law proved this. They had seven years of the most robust and incredible partying going on in Paris in the early 1700s because this guy John Law came along and convinced the French government to turn away from gold and silver and start printing bank notes.

The next seven years were amazing. There were parties. Paris was the number one destination for Persian carpets, rare spices and silks. Everybody was having a great time. Then it ended. You and I share the view that the same ending is going to happen. How is it that people can be on the right side of the wealth transfer when it happens, and not be on the wrong side?

Robert Kiyosaki: You said it best at the three-day in Phoenix. You have to pay attention. Most people are not paying attention. They are going out and working for money. Meanwhile, my rich dad in Rich Dad, Poor Dad—the rich do not work for money. I am not saying that is the answer. I am just saying to stop and think for a little while. Why are the rich not working for money? What are they doing? What am I doing wrong? Why am I paying so much more in taxes? Why am I getting upset with the government? Being an advocate of good financial education, we have no financial education in our schools. Do you ever wonder why that happened? We go to school to work for money, but there is no financial education in schools.

That is why I wrote Rich Dad, Poor Dad, I created my board games and my electronic games and all this. I believe there is a rich person in each and every one of us. But, we go to school to be told what to do. Education comes from the word "educe," to draw out of you. Inside of you is a rich person. Schools should draw out, educe, the rich person in you. What they do instead of educe is induce. They tell you to go to school and get a job. They train you to be an employee working for money. There is educe and induce. I believe personally that there is a rich person in every single one of us, whether you do well in school or not. The richest guys in the world today dropped out of school, Steve Jobs, Bill Gates, and Walt Disney.

What am I missing here? You went to school and you were programmed to get a job. Today, kids are coming out of school, like in Europe where 50% of the young people are unemployed or underemployed. They are still going to school to get a job. What is going wrong with that? It is because you have induced them with the idea that they should be an employee, not an entrepreneur.

Chris Martenson: It is fascinating to me. At your seminars, you like games. One of the games we played really drew out some of that behavior in people on both sides. There was a game where people had to raise capital. Some people did it just like that and knew what to do. They moved right into that space. Other people had more difficulty with that. A couple of people could not do it or did not want to. What was interesting to me in that was that it really clarified for me, something that I think is really vitally important. I talk a lot about how there could be a very disruptive future in front of us, economically and financially, who knows, maybe even more, with what we see in the Ukraine. There is war and social unrest looming over their heads.

In that moment, it is easy to see how some people moved easily into knowing what their value was and being able to offer it on the spot in order to participate in the game, the game of life as it were. Other people did not. I think that is valuable right there. If I could wave a magic wand and have people know something, it would be, what are those four things you uniquely do better than anybody else, that have value? I cannot imagine a more important thing for people to start figuring out right now.

Robert Kiyosaki: Yes. It is called What Do You Think of the Table. When little boys and girls are choosing their softball teams, if you do not bring anything to the team, you sit on the bench. That is what is going to happen. For me, as you know, I have lots of gold and silver. I have guns, lots of guns, lots of bullets and all this stuff. I do not want it to happen, but if it does happen, I am ready for it. At the same time, Mayor Bloomberg and all of them want to take our guns away. Why do they want to do that? Why are food stamps going up so high? Why is there no financial education in schools? I have to step back and say that there must be something else going on that I really do not know about. There is a bigger game going on. I think it is to impoverish us. That is really what I think it is. It is to make us little minion serfs who will do the beck and call of the uber rich. I would rather be rich and play by their rules, the same rules as the rich. I do not want to play by the rules of the middle class and poor, because those guys are paying the taxes.

Chris Martenson: The middle class have been the ones who have been footing the bill all these years, for everything that has been going on. We know the Federal government has just been borrowing its way toward the future. I guess if there was a plan, it was that somehow this miracle of economic growth would happen. But of course, economic growth happens when a lot of industrious people are productive. It requires resources that may or may not be there in the future. I think they will not be. We really have a mash-up in this story coming. You are absolutely right. From my perspective, when I look at both the education people get in school and the continuing education that happens across the airwaves, in the newspapers and the media, the American news has the least amount of context of any news that I go across and read.

What is happening in the Ukraine? I just read an interview that Putin gave. He started in the 1700s, so that people could understand the context of the Ukraine. It was valuable and important. There is a lot of context happening over there. Over here, it has been turned into a cartoon. We have to show Putin we are strong. There is no context. I really think that Americans are without really important context on a routine basis.

Robert Kiyosaki: I 100% agree with you. The problem with America is that we are too young. That might be the problem. We do not see far enough back in time and history. Our school systems and trading systems on Wall Street, they are trading minute to minute. They are missing the big picture. I'm a student of Dr. Buckminster Fuller, the guy who created the geodesic dome and all that. He says that if you want to be intelligent, you have to look at the biggest picture possible. Then you go to the small picture. What happens for most people is that they start small and go smaller. They become more highly specialized. I want to be a generalist and look at the big picture of the world, of what is going on with everything else, and then make my decisions.

I just started as a little kid at nine years old playing Monopoly with my rich dad. My poor dad was the head of the school system. My rich dad was my best friend’s father. At nine years old, I was playing Monopoly. I asked my rich dad why I was doing this. He said it was one of the formulas for great wealth. There are many formulas. You can marry somebody from money. That works too. You can win the lottery. That works too. You can get smart, and he said this was one of the games. We all know the formula for great wealth. It is four green houses and one red hotel, four green houses and one red hotel. I am nine years old and I ask him if that is all there is. He said that was it. Take your money and convert it to assets that print money and push money out. Today I have my big red hotel. I have my golf courses and all that. They all print money for me. Every month they send me money.

It is not that hard to do if you start with the right context of what you are doing. That is fundamentally it. The Monopoly game also has this interesting rule. It says in the rules of Monopoly that if the bank runs out of money, all the banker has to do is write money on a piece of paper. The Monopoly game taught me the context of how the game is played, at nine years old. I did not want to go back to school and get a job. That was my context. I knew I could print my own money like the bank did. I could just have a good time playing Monopoly. That was it.

Chris Martenson: I spent endless hours on that game. My favorite piece was the battleship. I think it does teach important lessons. Here we are. We are looking at—obviously the world economy is not behaving well. They are printing money like crazy. Is the advice here that people, if they are so inclined, should go out and start to learn those entrepreneurial skills? Could everybody be an entrepreneur? Or is this really a message for a subset of people?

Robert Kiyosaki: No, I believe there is a rich person in everybody. I also believe there is an entrepreneur in everybody. There is a young lady down the street and she is always selling lemonade. She is an entrepreneur. The woman who cleans my house is an entrepreneur. She is self-employed. Above that first level of entrepreneurship, of cleaning my house or selling lemonade, comes the next level of sophistication, education and experience. Most people say it is easier to get a paycheck so they go to work at McDonalds, rather than become an entrepreneur. That is what is happening. They do not have the education, experience or ambition to get out of what I call the "employee mindset" of working hard, getting a paycheck and paying taxes.

That does not make sense for my context. I would rather hire a lot of people to work hard and make a lot of money, and pay fewer taxes because the tax service, the Internal Revenue Service, rewards entrepreneurs and punishes employees. I am not the guy who did it. I am just reporting to you the way the system is rigged. Entrepreneurs get tax breaks and employees do not get tax breaks. That is the system.

Chris Martenson: It is the system. Your income gets taxed more heavily than your passive income, your active income. That is the system at present.

Your company has produced a game that is online now. This game, is this something that can help people begin to work with some of these concepts?

Robert Kiyosaki: Absolutely. I will say it again. I believe that inside of you is a rich person. My game "Cash Flow," or the board game Monopoly are to educe out of you the rich person. That is true education. The current system of education is an induction, they induce. They tell you what to do. You go to school and get a job. You work hard and you save money. You buy a house "because it is an asset" and you turn your money over to a financial planner so they can lose it. "Oh, I'm doing the right thing. I have a job. I'm working hard and paying taxes. I bought a house and I'm turning my money over to a financial planner and diversifying." You are going to get crushed. You and I are both saying the same thing. When the next crash comes, you are the guy who get crushed, unfortunately.

If you want to learn something new, play a game and then go do the real thing. It is really simple. It is called practice. In football, we practice and practice. In theater, it is called rehearsal. That is practice. But in the education system, you make a mistake and they punish you. That is why people do not get out of that box. What if I make a mistake? What if I lose my money? You should practice before you put your hard money in. You do not do that. You just turn your money over to a financial planner.

Chris Martenson: Here we are in early 2014. We see that the world is doing what it is doing. What would your advice be to anybody who's got—this is the most common thing I run into, people who come to my seminars and say, “Look, I am working this job. I am earning this paycheck. I am really not fulfilled by it. I know there is this other life I want to lead." But it is a really big gap between where they currently are and where they want to be. What are some practical ways to start closing that gap up?

Robert Kiyosaki: I guess it starts with discontent. You know in your gut that you are not on the right track for you. When I came back from Vietnam in 1973, my poor dad said to go back and get my Master’s, my Ph.D. and work for the government. In my gut, I knew that was not for me. It might be for you, but it is not for me. To thine own self be true. The second thing after what you want to be is what role model you want. My rich dad was my best friend’s dad in Hawaii. It is not easy, but I had to want that. The problem with education is it gives you the right answer and then you take the test. In real life, you take the test and you have to find your own answers out there. It is not easy. You have to be a very active learner. Every day I am making so many mistakes that it makes me sick. When am I going to stop doing this? It is painful. That is how we learn. A kid learns to walk by falling down. Most kids leave school saying that if they fall down, they are stupid. That is not real life. That is why most schoolteachers are not rich. They have big paychecks and 401Ks, but they are not rich people. There is a big difference.

Chris Martenson: That is absolutely invaluable insight there. I want to thank you for the warm reception that Adam and I had at the off-site there that you conducted in Phoenix. It was a wonderful experience. I was really gratified that a lot of people took the time to say that The Crash Course was a book that resonated with them and provided some framing that they found useful and helpful. Adam’s story and my story were stories of entrepreneurship. We both took big risks. We jumped off because we were dissatisfied with our current lives. We had to do something different. Now we have built some assets around that. Somehow, we managed to follow the path you recommend. I am just one person who is saying it works.

Robert Kiyosaki: What you saw in the workshop is my team, my advisors, the team of nine. We are tight. We have my accountants, my attorneys, my guys who raise capital for me and my sales guys, all that stuff. We are a team. That is what makes you rich. I talked about—you have to be a master of pieces. I put accountants, attorneys and bankers all together. That is how I get rich. In school, rather than being a master of the pieces you become one of the pieces. You come out of school as an accountant or attorney. The entrepreneur comes in and puts you together with the rest of their team. You are either the master of pieces as an entrepreneur or one of the pieces from the school system. What you guys are doing right now is becoming the master of the pieces, putting your own team together, or your community, or your tribe. That is what is going to cause us to survive.

Chris Martenson: There is a great lesson in there, whether it is in business or in people’s communities. This conforms so well with the future I see coming. We need to disconnect from the larger systems, forget what they are telling us, or even take whatever they are telling us and reverse it 180 degrees and take that as the truth. We have to start thinking for ourselves, planning for ourselves and controlling what we can, knowing we cannot control everything. And become that "master of the pieces" in our own communities.

Robert Kiyosaki: Right, especially when it comes to the world of money, as you and I will probably agree. That is probably the most corrupt of all. It is so corrupted. The moment they could print money, it became more corrupt. For people to go to school and work to make a high salary, you are probably going down the wrong trail. The more money they print, the harder you have to work. Mises says the more we print money, the poorer we get and the more impoverished people get. You had better start thinking differently. How do you convert your money into an asset? That is what you and Adam have done.

Chris Martenson: Absolutely. There is a lot of advice on that at our website, Peak Prosperity. We have been working on that. We really hope to be rounding all of that out. Robert, thank you so much for your time today. I am really looking forward to developing a relationship with you and your organization. What you are doing is really vitally important. It is about educating people and providing the right context so that people can make their own decisions. It is really just arming people with important information. I think that is great work. I want to commend you for that.

Robert Kiyosaki: Thank you. As I said at the seminar, the definition of intelligence is if you agree with me, then you are intelligent. You guys are really intelligent. Thank you. You guys have really blessed my organization. A lot of times they said, “That is what you are trying to tell me.” I said yes. They do not listen to daddy. They listen to somebody else. You get the message across.

Chris Martenson: Sometimes it takes a couple of teachers. That is fine. Thank you for that.

Robert Kiyosaki: Thank you guys. Keep up the great work.

Chris Martenson: Thank you. You too. Be well.

Robert Kiyosaki: Right. Bye.

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73 Comments

  • Sun, Mar 16, 2014 - 6:20pm

    #1
    KugsCheese

    KugsCheese

    Status: Gold Member

    Joined: Jan 01 2010

    Posts: 903

    Why Credit is Bad

    Ultimately money credit is bad because it is an unnatural expansion of "buying power" that in every case is not sustainable.  It leads to too many humans on a finite planet.  Production credit is bad to; we saw that in the house building bubble.   Credit always leads to credit bubbles.   What can replace it?  Equity-based lending.   Politicians would fight that though since they like printing money with no restrictions.

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  • Sun, Mar 16, 2014 - 11:00pm

    #2

    Arthur Robey

    Status: Platinum Member

    Joined: Feb 03 2010

    Posts: 1814

    Brainwashing

    How I wish my children would listen to me. Anything I say is hogwash, or it is a product of some psychosis.

    They have been brainwashed by their education into believing the opposite of what I know. Believe me-civilizations do crash.

    I am the fool on the hill.

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  • Mon, Mar 17, 2014 - 12:26am

    #3

    Wildlife Tracker

    Status: Silver Member

    Joined: Jan 14 2012

    Posts: 405

    What do we young folks do?

    I'm torn. I would like to find a job that pays some of those fat checks that are found in the "professional" world, but I'm concerned about the return on investment.

    For example, I would like to try to work in big data analysis/analytics as I'm an INTJ personality and I think I would enjoy work that takes advantage of the way I think. It would also help pull me into a financially stronger position than the position I am now. I have a degree in natural resource management and a lot of computer skills that go to waste working in a kitchen doing food preparation. It's a waste of my skills and it makes me unhappy. People who work in analytics have high recruitment potential with GREAT pay (at least today) so that is attractive.

    I worked in conservation for a bit, until I decided a master's degree (required for the majority of environmental scientists) was a bad idea going forward. I also didn't find conservation work at all meaningful. Often times I found it actually pretty wasteful on tax payer resources. Pursuing analytics I don't believe would be too much more capital investment from where I am at currently with credentials (a couple classes maybe?)

    I guess the point of this post is to tell you all that I'm pretty lost about what I should be doing with my life.

    Should I be 100% focused on agriculture right now and only make minimum wage(ish), but also learn the skills I need to know to probably survive in 5-20 years?. This what I feel I should do, but I can't afford my own land and I have bills to pay so this also seems like a terrible short-term investment.

    Or should I pursue a job with great pay that will provide me with more tools (land, wealth, etc.) to survive in the future? Seems like a better short-term investment, but a dumb long-term investment.

    Anybody have any input or want to point me towards some meaningful work or life strategies?

    I really am lost.

     

     

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  • Mon, Mar 17, 2014 - 12:29am

    #4

    Mark_BC

    Status: Bronze Member

    Joined: Apr 30 2010

    Posts: 360

    Interesting interview,

    Interesting interview, thanks. Just one point about deciding to make your money work for you rather than going to work for someone else. A steady job is a steady paycheck. There is a bit of a danger in learning about how things work financially, because you can attain a certain degree of understanding and then put yourself in somewhat precarious financial positions because you think you know how the system works. And you do understand it better than the guy who just works for someone else and aspires to no more. But the financial elites, they truly know how the system works, and they are skilled at stealing money from those people who think they know how it works and bet against the system. Then you can end up in worse shape than the guy working at Subway. For example, we here understand gold's value and what the end game will be. We understand how the system works on a fundamental level. But are fundamentals being at all reflected in the markets? If you had bought gold 2 years ago at $1700 you would have taken a big hit. You would have been much better off putting your money in stocks for 2 years and selling 5 months ago and buying gold at $1200. Was it wrong to buy gold? No, it is a long term investment. But there are people at the top who want to screw everyone who thinks they know how the system works and allocates their assets accordingly. In this case, a steady job working for someone else, saving your money in the bank wasn't such a bad thing...
     
    I think the biggest factor not really discussed here is the US trade deficit and currency manipulation. It's not entirely fair to criticize Americans for having the entitlement mentality, because this was forced on them. China has manipulated its currency low, and America manipulated its high, for decades now, which was obviously done to suck manufacturing over to China. There is no way China could have grown that much and been that "prosperous" (not really though, if you factor in lung cancer and environmental degradation) if it had not stolen manufacturing from the rest of the world. The Chinese are not that industrious. This left Americans with nothing to do for a job except consume manufactured items from China at too low prices, and also oil which was enabled by the US dollar's international hegemony. The media played this up, as that was the only thing boosting GDP growth. That ponzi scheme has grown until we are where we are today.
     
    I like the entrepreneurial spirit discussed in the interview, but I have to say that what Mr. Kiyosaki is suggesting isn't possible for a whole society to achieve, i.e. everyone accepting the capitalist spirit and forming their own little proprietorships and going out and producing. Don't forget that in Monopoly, every round of the board brings in more money (un-exercised claims on wealth). But along with this there is an ever growing source of little green houses available that just magically sit beside the board ready to be allocated along with the new money being printed. If an economy is no longer capable of growing due to resource shortages, then I have to suggest that the only way Mr. Kiyosaki could become wealthier from his entrepreneurial activities like using credit to build hotels, is if someone else is impoverished by the same amount. As mentioned, the tax code punishes workers disproportionately over entrepreneurs, which is unfortunate, and this only amplifies the problem.
     
    It just isn't possible for everyone to be an entrepreneur making profit and building wealth if the economy isn't growing. Instead, what would happen is that when people extend themselves out financially to build "productive" assets like new hotels or what have you, they would find that on average the hotels fail as often as they succeed -- it would be like the 1930's deflation. Why would anyone open a hotel during that period? It would be the 1930's but permanent (and without the falling prices). Then those people would go bankrupt, become unemployed, or have to go work for someone else as an employee. But there aren't enough jobs for everyone because the consumption can't be maintained. So then they'd go onto the welfare state, because they have no alternative. Isn't that where we are today? So how do we fix it? Kick everyone off so they can experience the motivation to become little productive powerhouses in Ayn Rand's virtuous society? Using what resources?

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  • Mon, Mar 17, 2014 - 12:42am

    #5
    robie robinson

    robie robinson

    Status: Gold Member

    Joined: Aug 25 2009

    Posts: 967

    any ideas

    on which Dad was more satisfied? Are we sure the poor dad is less happy? Cat Stevens had a line about fotherhood, being poor yet happy.

    Happy on a farm, robie

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  • Mon, Mar 17, 2014 - 1:24am

    #6
    Chris Martenson

    Chris Martenson

    Status: Platinum Member

    Joined: Jun 07 2007

    Posts: 5100

    Entrepreneurship and resilience

    So, here's my take away from my time with Kiyosaki and his organization.

    Whether you make the most of your gifts in this life is largely dependent on your frame of mind
    Our culture constantly asks us to perform 'good enough'...and extols the "virtues" of getting some good schooling and an okay job.   But for what, exactly?
    Risk and reward are coupled ideas.
    Each of us has unique gifts that, if we worked them hard enough, someone would pay us (in whatever currency matters at the time) to perform them
    Chance favors the bold

    The summary is not that we should each become Bill Gates.  Or all tavern owners with franchise licensees on every corner.  But that each of us should cultivate the entrepreneurial spirit which means that whatever the current circumstance offers, we can both spot where the value lies and how we (personally) can add to it.

    For some, this will mean starting the next multinational behemoth.  For others it will be local and relatively modest.  For both it will be rewarding, far more resilient, and in accordance with what brings them personal fulfillment and happiness.   

    This is going to be a big theme of our next seminar...as whether we can find our entrepreneurial spirit or not is - simply put- a matter of belief.

    Don't believe me?   There's one way to find out.

    But this has been true in my life, and I'm pretty sure it's going to be true in a lot of lives going forward.

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  • Mon, Mar 17, 2014 - 4:41am

    TechGuy

    TechGuy

    Status: Bronze Member

    Joined: Oct 13 2008

    Posts: 308

    " I would like to try to work

    " I would like to try to work in big data analysis/analytics as I'm an INTJ personality and I think I would enjoy work that takes advantage of the way I think. It would also help pull me into a financially stronger position than the position I am now"Well you don't really need a CompSci degree to get a good paying programming job, but you need knowledge and experience. If you like solving problems and working with data, I think you can start getting involved with programming. For next to nothing you can build yourself a LAMP server (Linux Apache, MySQL, PHP) since all of the software and tools you need to get started are free. You would also gain knowledge and experience with Linux which is in demand too. This would avoid the need to spend years going back to school and getting deep in debt. There are probably a ton of online classes that you can take on Youtube or for profit online training classes. The paid classes would still be a less costly option than attending a university. 
    If you want to get focused on big data than learn Cassandra, Mongo and other open-source distributed data tools. demand for skills with these tools are in high demand.
    "Should I be 100% focused on agriculture right now and only make minimum wage(ish), but also learn the skills I need to know to probably survive in 5-20 years?"
    Unless you have the capital, you will likely end up as a share-cropper which isn't fun. In my opinion your best option is to find a good paying job that you're interested so you can build up capital that to purchase land, Practice agriculture and other skills you will need as hobby.
    FWIW: By day I, i work as a professional techie, during nights and weekends, I spend all my free time learning to be self-reliant. This is a mixure of technical and non-techinical information. For instance, I spend a lot of time learning metal machining so I can repair and create replacement parts. In the growing season, I plant my garden to learn about different crops and coming up with strategies to avoid pests, seed recycling, etc. 
    My best advice, is to get rid of the TV, the computer games, and get busy spending all your hours working on your career and learning be be self-reliant. 
     

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  • Mon, Mar 17, 2014 - 5:31am

    TechGuy

    TechGuy

    Status: Bronze Member

    Joined: Oct 13 2008

    Posts: 308

    "Each of us has unique gifts

    "Each of us has unique gifts that, if we worked them hard enough, someone would pay us (in whatever currency matters at the time) to perform them Chance favors the bold"
    If you choose the entrepreneur route, I have a few suggestions:
    1. Before you commit time and money to an idea, do some detailed marketing research first. You may have a great idea, but if there is no market for it, its very unlikely your business will be successful. You also must determine what the marketable value of your service or product and the costs needed to provide it to customers. If it costs you $10 to make a product or provide a service and the marketable value is only $11, its going to extremely diffficult to make any money.
    2. Do not invest your lifesavings or go into debt to start your business. Never Bet the farm! Its better to dip your feet instead of plunging in. Many business fail because people under estimate risks and costs that come back to bit them. 
    3. Your in Business to make a profit. Do start a business based upon a hobby interest hoping that you can turn into something profitable. I've know people in the past that started a retail business because it was their "dream" job, which ended up as a nightmare. Rule number one, is that your in business to make money!
    4. Survival of the Fittest. The business that fail are the business that can't adapt to change or can't change fast enough. Do not stick to a rigid business model, hoping that the economy or demand for your goods and services will swing back. When you see your sales decline you need to take action, first determine the cause of the sales decline, Is it because there is a better product or service available? Is because your customers can no longer afford it or its no longer in style. Be prepared to change your business model as frequently as you change your underwear!
    5. You are a one man band! Not only do you need to provide a service or product to your customers but you also must be a salesman, a marketing person and a back-office person. You must be able to pitch your services or product to your potential customers. You must provide information available about your services and products so your customers know what your offering. This can be flyers, web site, or whatever it takes to get your potential customers informed. You also need to run the back-office, which makes taking care of the supplies and equipment you need to run your business, pay your bills, deal with business liabilities (taxes, rent, phones, etc). 
    6. Becareful when partnering with others. I seen many business fail because one or more of the partners failed to contribute to the business. Hashing up a business partnership at a bar or social event without fully understanding the other persons skills and motivation is a killer!  Do not expect that some person you meet next week is going have the same motivation and devotion as you do. Unless you know they for years and familiar with their working habits, do not partner with them. Do offer a partnership to a friend because you like them. Only do it if they have skills and resources that will make a significant contribution to your business!
    7. You will get as much out of the business as you put into it. If you expect to become the next millionare tycoon by getting up at 10 AM and finishing work at 3PM, don't bother, your business is gaurenteed to fail! In virtually any startup be prepared to work long hours and many weekends, at least until you have the a profitable business running. Do not expect that in two weeks that your business will be rolling in the big money. Usually it takes several years before you obtain enough customers and revenue before you can cut back on your work week. 
    8. Avoid starting Resturants! Resturants have the highest failover rates and require the most number of hours to operate. This is one business that you will need to work 7 days a week and most holidays to stay in business. Rule number 1 in "business club" is you do not start a resturant business! Rule number two in "business club" is you don't start any retail food business (deli, Pastry shop, etc)
    9. The business that will be the easiest to be successful (in my opinion) are non-retail businesses that sell only to other businesses. Retail customers are a pain. The complain a lot, make difficult demands, delay payment (sometimes non-payment). Its difficult to sell high margin goods and services to retail customers because most are tapped out and in debt. Your business may only need a handful of business customers to be successful, but for a successful retail business you will need hundreds to thousands of customers. I'd rather sell a thousand widgets to one business customer, than sell one widget to a thousand customers. 
     
     

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  • Mon, Mar 17, 2014 - 9:55am

    Poet

    Status: Platinum Member

    Joined: Jan 20 2009

    Posts: 981

    Move Into Some Sort Of Office Job, Wildlife Tracker

    Yes, move heaven and earth, use your personal family/friends/professional network and resources to get into an office job - for a business or for a non-profit or for an university. Even if it is sales assist or accounts payables clerk. Then bust your ass and arrive early and stay late to get assigned to projects - even if it means helping the IT staff roll out new desktops on their next cycle after first developing a reputation as the "Excel" guy, or volunteering to help the contractor/consultant implement something because it is a small office, or volunteering for training, or offering to do analytical assistance for the sales staff of two guys or the controller. You are still young, you can do it. The point is to be in a position to step into roles that open up for you, or allow you to propose analytical ideas to managers, directors, etc.Being in the kitchen, chopping onions and slicing carrots, puts you nowhere near the kinds of opportunities you are looking to get yourself into. "Contributed to the efficiency of kitchen operations by preparing food in accordance with safe handling practices" pales in comparison to "Analyzed the contact/no-contact and close ratios of sales calls to time of day and week to optimally schedule customer contacts" when you are trying to get your foot into the next door towards analytical.
    Do something free for a nonprofit if you must. But the kitchen is not where you should be earning your minimum wage. If anything, if you stay where you are,  someone else with a degree (and onerous student loans) from some culinary academy is probably going to get promoted over you into an assistant or line cook position that pays slightly better. Even if you did get the promotion to something else in the kitchen, the longer you are in that line if work, the more typecast you will be.
    I really don't think society will collapse in one fell swoop as you seem to think. Even in Argentina, it is more like people scrounging, hustling, getting by as each year is worse than before. But life goes on and you apparently get used to it. Kids still laugh and play.
    According to John Michael Greer, we are transitioning towards a world of scarcity industrialism. This will last at least a few decades. The aging demographics and debt challenges will be tough on the United States, but it will not be a massive collapse. But yes, poverty will hit more of us. (I include myself.) The Boomer seniors will vote themselves some kind of rescue package offered by politicians who couch it in terms of retirement with dignity as if they have earned it all. Yet you won't be forced to take up farming or moving to a rural area to survive, just as the almost 3 million residents of Buenos Aires still live in the city.
    Learn entrepreneurial skills. Learn to barter and bargain, deal and dumpster-dive, hustle and handyman, repair and re-use, sew and sow. But don't think that will butter most of your bread yet. The scavenger societies come after scarcity industrialism, and will last at least a century, if not longer. That is when having the latter skills will really come in handy. By then you will no longer be in your 20s or 30s. You could be in your 50s.
    Scarcity Industrialism: "...The world is in the midst of a transformation between the kind of society and economy familiar to us over the last century or so, which I've called 'abundance industrialism,' and a new kind that may as well be called 'scarcity industrialism.' Where abundance industrialism was defined by the ready availability of cheap abundant natural resources, especially but not only fossil fuels, scarcity industrialism will be defined by the scarcity of such resources. One of the implications of this shift is that those nations and regions that control significant amounts of important resources will find those resources becoming a potent source of political leverage. The same sort of clout OPEC gained from its oil reserves in the Seventies, and may reclaim in the not too distant future, will become accessible to countries or cartels of countries with large amounts of any economically vital resource."
    http://thearchdruidreport.blogspot.com/2009/09/dawn-of-scarcity-industrialism.html
    "When transportation accounts for most of the cost of many commercial products, that fact will write R.I.P. on the headstone of the global economy, because goods made overseas will be priced out of markets dominated by local production and regional trading networks. We’ve already begun to see the cutting edge of the new resource nationalism, as energy reserves and strategic raw materials become the mainsprings of political and military power, and governments start treating them accordingly. Expect this to expand dramatically in the decades to come, as dependence on foreign resources becomes a noose around a nation’s neck and economic independence – even at a sharply lowered standard of living – the key to survival.
     
    "More generally, the pendulum of power could well swing away from the multinational corporations that have exercised so much influence in recent years, toward those national governments willing to use military force to maintain territorial integrity and control over resources. When most resource transfers across borders are negotiated between governments according to a calculus of political advantage, rather than being purchased on the open market by the highest bidder, those whose power comes solely from money will find themselves with a great deal less clout than they have today. Those governments that master the new calculus of power soonest, in turn, will dominate the age of scarcity industrialism.
     
    "However it unfolds, the age of scarcity industrialism will no more be a permanent state of affairs than the age of abundance industrialism that precedes it. While it lasts, access to fossil fuels and other nonrenewable resources will be the key to international power and national survival, but by that very token fossil fuels and other nonrenewable resources will continue to slide down the curves of depletion. As resource production in one nation after another drops below levels that will support any kind of industrial system, industrial economies will unravel and give way to other forms of economy – in the terms I’ve used in several recent posts, other seral stages in the process of succession that leads to the ecotechnic societies of the future.
     
    "What remains unknown is which of the current industrial societies will manage the transition to scarcity industrialism, and which will falter and crack under the strain. The United States could go either way."
    http://thearchdruidreport.blogspot.com/2007/10/age-of-scarcity-industrialism.html
    Salvage Societies: "...The age of scarcity industrialism will be self-limiting, because the exploitation of nonrenewable resources that gives it its power also puts a time limit on its survival. Once those resources are gone, or depleted far enough that it stops being economical to run a society by exploiting them, another round of new social and economic forms will replace the structures of scarcity industrialism.
     
    "At this point we may just find ourselves in something like familiar territory. Archeologists around the world have learned to recognize the distinctive traces of a collapsed society, and one of these is the recycling of old structures for new uses."
     
    "The logic behind it, though, has not often been recognized: when a civilization breaks down, the most efficient economies are most often those that use its remains as raw material."
     
    A "village blacksmith could smelt his own raw material from bog iron – that's the technical name for the iron sulfide deposits laid down in most temperate zone wetlands by chemosynthetic bacteria. There’s a lot of bog iron to be had, since it hasn’t been used commercially in centuries and most North American deposits away from the Atlantic coast have never been worked at all. It's easy to smelt bog iron into workable form – people in Dark Age Europe and early colonial America did it with simple charcoal fires – and it’s also quite easy to do the same thing with rust, which is iron oxide, the standard commercially worked iron ore in the days before huge fossil fuel subsidies made it possible to use low-grade ores like taconite.
     
    "Still, the steel stocked up for the future by today’s civilization make a far more economical source. A small proportion of that consists of high-temperature alloys that require modern technology to work with, but the huge majority – girders, pipes, auto frames, sheet steel, and much more – can be forged at temperatures much lower than the ones you need for smelting ore, and yield better metal into the bargain. They will be the obvious metal source in the age of salvage that will follow the time of scarcity industrialism. Furthermore, there are billions of tons of the stuff all over what is now the industrial world, enough to keep the deindustrial cultures of the future supplied for a very long time.
     
    "Mind you, steel is only one of hundreds of raw materials that will be accessible in the ruins of today’s cities and towns."
     
    http://thearchdruidreport.blogspot.com/2007/10/age-of-salvage-societies.html
    Poet
    P.S. I met Robert and Kim Kiyosaki once at a seminar, have a picture of him and me (blurry, as he hates flash). I have one of his books, signed by both him and his sister, a Buddhist nun. I have several of his books. Entertaining to read and helps you think. However, do take what Kiyosaki says with a grain of salt. He is trying to sell his books after all.
    [quote=Wildlife Tracker]
    I have a degree in natural resource management and a lot of computer skills that go to waste working in a kitchen doing food preparation. It's a waste of my skills and it makes me unhappy. People who work in analytics have high recruitment potential with GREAT pay (at least today) so that is attractive.
    ...
    I really am lost.
    [/quote]

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  • Mon, Mar 17, 2014 - 10:38am

    #10

    kaimu

    Status: Member

    Joined: Sep 20 2013

    Posts: 162

    COMMUNITY IS AS COMMUNITY DOES

    ALOHA!! I would beware of most online "communities"! Typically the so called community tends to only benefit the owner of the blog. Typically the owner of the blog ends up being most enriched at the cost of the "community". Just because you have "like-minded" individuals writing comments and agreeing with a "like-minded" blog guru does not mean you have a true community. In many instances you get the blog owner having a group of people who either get paid minimal amounts or paid nothing for contributing time and money to a blog. Is that a real "community" or is it just a scam?

    I guess you need to start out with the exact definition of "community". If you search online the definition of "community" you get is this ...

    com·mu·ni·ty
    kəˈmyo͞onitē/
    noun
    noun: community; plural noun: communities
    1.
    a group of people living in the same place or having a particular characteristic in common.
    "Rhode Island's Japanese community"

    synonyms:
    groupbodysetcirclecliquefaction; More

     
     

    a group of people living together in one place, esp. one practicing common ownership.
    "a community of nuns"

    synonyms:
    brotherhoodsisterhoodfraternitysororitysodality; More

     
     

    a particular area or place considered together with its inhabitants.
    "a rural community"

    synonyms:
    districtregionzonearealocalitylocaleneighborhood; More

     
     

    a body of nations or states unified by common interests.
    "the European Community"

    the people of a district or country considered collectively, esp. in the context of social values and responsibilities; society.
    noun: the community
    "preparing prisoners for life back in the community"

    synonyms:
    public, general public, populacepeople, citizenry, population,collective; More

     
     

    denoting a worker or resource designed to serve the people of a particular area.
    modifier noun: community
    "community health services"

    2.
    a feeling of fellowship with others, as a result of sharing common attitudes, interests, and goals.
    "the sense of community that organized religion can provide"

    a similarity or identity.
    "writers who shared a community of interests"

    joint ownership or liability.
    "a commitment to the community of goods"

    3.
    ECOLOGY
    a group of interdependent organisms of different species growing or living together in a specified habitat.
    "communities of insectivorous birds"

    Origin
    late Middle English: from Old French comunete, reinforced by its source, Latincommunitas, from communis (see common).

     
     
    Looking at the above chart you see the word "community" is in high demand now since we are all looking for a way to be a community in order to survive the wrath of the government owned by the 1%. Government and debt has destroyed community. In this case we live under the worst form of capitalism according to Karl Marx, which is a capitalist system dominated by banking(indebtedness).
     
    First off "community" has to benefit or offer benefit to all, not just the one. Otherwise, please, lets not call it a community. Some communities offer just an exchange of ideas and nothing more. Some of these online communities are really nothing more than an "exchange" for ideas. Some blog exchanges offer ways to trade markets for profit. One such blog is the Bill Cara blog. Other blogs are purely political and cater to like-minded bloggers of specific political parties. Huffington Post seems to gravitate towards Democrats. Some blogs are economical based whereby each blogger in that exchange can work towards a similar "like-minded" economic theory. One such blog is with Barry Riholtz. Other blogs cross train in that they offer a bit of everything from politics to money to economics to agriculture and diet. A sort of "potpourri for survival". I think Peak Prosperity is a good example of such an exchange. 
     
    Now the one thing that is missing from all these online exchanges, not true communities, is what makes a real community. For me that would be a true "market". For instance ... we have come together here at Peak Prosperity and built on ideas. Like this podcast with Robert Kiyosaki offers insight into financial survival and efficient means to survive, but really nothing more. There is no Kiyosaki Market and for Robert I am sure he does not really want a "market" other than a one way market whereby we exchange our hard earned dollars for his books and dvds. As a owner of an orchid nursery in Hawaii I have the privilege of buying Robert's books and dvds, but there is no way for me to sell my product to Robert. 
     
    I venture to guess there are people within this Peak Prosperity "exchange" that are practicing lawyers and practicing computer programmers and practicing farmers and practicing bankers and practicing soap makers and on and on and on. For instance TechGuy and Wild Life Tracker seem to have skills and talents within the computer industry. Now if I wanted to buy a computer for my nursery business I can go online to Dell etc and buy a computer, but I would be more likely to buy one from TechGuy than Dell because I would know TechGuy has my same values rather than Michael Dell who sits somewhere at his mansion in Dallas or wherever thinking up new ways to screw Chinese workers and pollute the hell out of Beijing. Same goes for Apple over in China!
     
    It has been my goal for a long time to belong to a "real community" and I have not seen such a community online yet. Let me give you an example. Ebay has a format for buying and selling online and even paying through PayPal which is also an Ebay company. We know it can be done.
     
    What if Peak Prosperity built a market for its exchange? Just a online market place where if you are registered with Peak Prosperity you could enter the "Peak Market" to buy and sell goods and/or services. Now, I am a relatively new Peak Prosperity participant, but I am not new to online business, economic or trading blogs. I have been writing articles online for eight years. Sometimes I get paid and sometimes I do not. In fact most times I do not. Right now I write a monthly report for the Bill Cara blog called KAIMU SOUND MONEY, about the relationship of the US Treasury and US Fed and how these two institutions effect our lives with regards to debt money and politics.
     
    My main way to support myself is as a farmer. I own KAIMU NURSERY on the Big Island of Hawaii and I sell orchids online and locally, either wholesale or retail. I compete against 1800FLOWERS types in the USA and Canada. In fact Chris Martenson and his family just recently visited here.
     
    I also am a partner in an IPTV Studio based in Hollywood, CA. We own the Stream.TV and emPOWERme.TV channels. We currently have clients like AMC, Disney, TBS and Marvel and we have CBS and FOX knocking on our door as well in negotitation stages. I have been in the IPTV sector for three years now. I first was introduced to this space in 1998 when I was a partner with Cisco Systems in San Francisco building out the first closed loop internet video application via VoIP. On that project we had all the major Wall Street analsysts onsite, like Merrill Lynch and Morgan Stanley. The Cisco Systems development team told me this application would be the future for movies and TV. Once I saw the system work I was convinced. Just recently Disney went into buyout negotiations for "Maker Studios" for $500MIL. That was a studio similar to our own that started two years before us with $5MIL start-up investment. We started with $400K, three years ago. Since then we have been nominated or won various awards in internet TV, like Streamy Awards or IAWTV. In fact our studio head is the former VP of Marketing for Paramount Studios/Viacom and our studio is just at the back lot of Paramount on Santa Monica Blvd.There's the potential ...
     
    I approached Chris and Mebane Faber as I did Bill Cara to form a community based TV show whereby we could all form our own CNBC style media system. It would be a media outlet that offered an alternative market and in-depth analysis to the Wall Street corporate dominated CNBC brainwash. For instance in 2001 when I re-entered the gold/PM market there was nothing on CNBC about gold related investing. Only the ABX symbol scrolled by once in awhile. It wasn't until four years later that CNBC was touting the Wall Street approved GLD and ABX in full blown "expert mode". Yet on alternative blogs that advice was prevalent, even on blogs that were not gold/PM centric way back before the tech crash. CNBC is nothing more than a propaganda machine for Wall Street. They only sell Wall Street approved ideas by Wall Street approved shills. Where is the alternative? 
     
    My point is this. We all live interesting lives and we all have diversified skills and we all have diversified networks. In a true online community we could network within our community to buy and sell those skills and even invest and trade. With the advent of Ebay and KickStarter(crowd funding) there are now viable platforms to take these online exchanges into full blown communities. We can even fund them using crowd funding platforms.
     
    So far I have never seen one of these "exchanges" advance past the "exchange stage" into a full blown real  community. If we formed communities we could effect major changes. We would in essence have a union that monitizes the community not major corporate conglomerates beholding to Wall Street or government. Enough of these communities could shift the entire Consumer Nation called America away from foreign based manufacturers like China. Enough of these communities and we could shift the political power base as well. I believe that and it is not as hard as you might think.
     
     
     
     

     

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  • Mon, Mar 17, 2014 - 1:03pm

    #11
    FreeNL

    FreeNL

    Status: Bronze Member

    Joined: Mar 27 2013

    Posts: 90

    Get yourself a decent trade

    Get yourself a decent trade tracker. You can either work for other people or yourself and you can work anywhere. Industrial Electrician is the best one in my opinion. Its rewarding work.

    You would be very surprised how much money some electricians can make and they are needed everywhere these days. Then theres always solar panels and wind turbines for later on.    

      

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  • Mon, Mar 17, 2014 - 2:41pm

    #12

    RNcarl

    Status: Silver Member

    Joined: May 13 2008

    Posts: 179

    Where to begin

    Well,

    I don't know where to begin. I have read through the posts, (mind you I skimmed the long ones - sorry guys) and there is some good advice in them all.

    I read "Rich Dad - Poor Dad" back in the day, when it was first published. I could not wrap my head around what Robert was saying. But I had also read, "The Millionaire Next Door" and others in that genre. I am embarrassed to say that it took years for me to finally, "get it." However, getting it and doing something about it are two different things.

    Remember, you always work for yourself. Always. I don't care who signs the paycheck.

    Again I say, you can do whatever you want, you can study whatever you want and you can do any type of work that you want. You MUST be prepared to live the lifestyle that goes with those decisions.

    It was once said that if humans were musical instruments, they would go to their graves with 80% of their music still inside them.

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  • Mon, Mar 17, 2014 - 2:57pm

    #13

    RNcarl

    Status: Silver Member

    Joined: May 13 2008

    Posts: 179

    Atlas Shrugged

    I found it interesting that Robert mentioned Ayn Rand during the interview. I was trying to explain "going John Galt" to my wife and the only thing she could come up with was that it sounded like "cheating."

    Our oldest who is a senior in high school is at the point where she is needing to make decisions about where to go to college. She has been accepted to all the schools where she applied. Of course, being smack in the middle of the middle class, there is no financial aid available. At all. Yes, she has received some small scholarships and while she is a very smart young woman, there is no "full boat" scholarship in her future. Before you all jump on me about letting her go to college and not training her to "milk goats" I really think that whether we like it or not, a 4 year college degree is the new high school diploma.

    So, I was trying to explain to my wife that if we went "John Galt" there would be financial aid that we would receive. Also, in all of the aid applications, there were questions about if we owned a business, a farm, or were self employed. Again, being smack dab in the middle we both draw paychecks. 

    I have gotten very tired of supporting the opposite ends of the bell curve with nothing to show for it in return.

    My question is this, "Can I go John Galt and be an entrepreneur at the same time?"

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  • Mon, Mar 17, 2014 - 3:35pm

    #14
    lunableu22

    lunableu22

    Status: Member

    Joined: Oct 19 2011

    Posts: 50

    Two Things

    1)  Kiyosaki is selling Joe Six-pack on the idea of gaming the system as it is currently structured.  If the structure changes, so does the game. (Tax law, corporate law, social unrest...if any of this changes, your grand plan may not quite work out).

    2)  You have to have "seed money" to start gaming the system.  So...Wildlife Tracker...you gotta have money to make money...as the system is currently structured.

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  • Mon, Mar 17, 2014 - 3:40pm

    #15

    Arthur Robey

    Status: Platinum Member

    Joined: Feb 03 2010

    Posts: 1814

    The Mind of a Flea.

    I won't attempt to find out the source of this apocryphal tale.

    The average flea can jump 10". Place some in a jar with a lid only 4" high. Tap on the side of the jar repeatedly to get the fleas to jump. After sufficient training you can remove the lid. The fleas have been trained that they can only jump 4", and so are incapable of jumping 10" anymore.

    With your indoctrination schooling, are you surprised that you have the mind of a flea?

    You may need chemical aids. Take Ayahuasca, the scourge of the mind controllers.

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  • Mon, Mar 17, 2014 - 8:45pm

    #16
    jdye51

    jdye51

    Status: Bronze Member

    Joined: Feb 17 2011

    Posts: 151

    You all talk like you live in

    You all talk like you live in a vacuum where the key issue is how to become rich or richer devoid of the wider context of climate change and environmental degradation. Yes it gets mentioned but in passing and as something not directly affecting our existence now but down the road and with an eye on how to profit even from that. As though we're in control of how that plays out.

    To me there is cognitive dissonance: on the one hand, we read on PP that the global economy is teetering on the edge of collapse. On the other hand, are interviews like this that advocate actions not really so different from Business As Usual. The focus is on being your own boss and using other people's skills to make money. Aside from some criticisms made in the above posts ( i.e. not everyone is cut out to be an entrepreneur), if the US currency is going to fail (and it will), what is the point? The whole system is going and you seem to be focused on how to profit from it as it collapses. How is that any different from those we have been criticizing on PP?

    Tracker is advised not to work in food preparation or farm as a tenant. Why not? If one makes money  the sole criteria, then it makes sense to seek out something else. But we can all see that currencies are failing. Maybe it makes more sense to have a skill, like cooking or farming, that will really be needed when money becomes worthless. Office worker? - not so much.

    The pursuit of fiat money is the siren that lures us onto the rocks of ego inflation. I imagine Mr. Kiyosaki is a perfectly nice person but he is still focused on the old paradigm - just tweaked a little to take back some power from the "haves" by saying all we need to do is become an entrepreneur so we're not dependent on someone else for a paycheck. In other words, how to be a "have" instead of a "have-not". It's nice that he wants to spread the word about the "Crash Course" but has he really understood the implications?

    Resource depletion is happening now. Climate change is happening now. And it's all happening even faster than anticipated. Fracking is causing earthquakes and poisoning the water supply. Oil pipes burst and pollute rivers and streams. The oceans are our dumping grounds. Arctic ice is melting and methane is escaping in ever larger amounts. Temperatures are rising along with extreme weather events and they are already affecting our food supply. Plants, animals and insects are dying. It isn't something happening in a few decades or a century. It's happening right now.

    Do we really need another multinational company raping and pillaging the planet? Do we really need more hotels or office complexes? What is the definition of value that best serves the whole? It seems to me we see all around us the consequences of valuing financial wealth over all else. Why would anyone at PP who is aware of the serious issues we face, want to do more of the same? Personal profit at the expense of people and the planet has helped create this mess.

    I'm very disappointed in what seems to me to be an increasing emphasis on PP on making money. It seems so at odds with the message of the "Crash Course". I imagine it's hard basing a web site business model on informing people of the coming collapse of industrial society when it appears to keep on going and going. My perception is that the PP "community" is narrowing to reflect those interested in money and finance over other issues. I notice some people who used to post here are doing so less or not at all. Where have they gone and why? I post less frequently and when I do I know what I have to say isn't really that welcome because I talk about the dangers from Fukushima and especially Climate Change, including the possibility of Near Term Extinction. I think there's a lot of denial on the part of many PPers on how much they are already affecting the planet and how quickly changes are happening. So I find it hard to get too worked up about how to make more money or in fantasies of the future that don't match the reality I see around me.

    I know I may be blasted for what I've said. I really don't care at this point. This is what I see after many months of a growing discomfort with the direction of PP. It's my opinion alone and I'm not asking anyone to share it with me. Others here will see things differently. I've benefited from the "Crash Course" and some of the information here and that's why I've taken this time to share what I think. But it's not a good match for me anymore as it isn't reflecting reality as I see it. If I stay and keep commenting, it will only be to repeat myself so what's the point? I bear no bad feelings.

    Thanks to all here here who have made me think outside my own box and for all the useful information.

    Joyce

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  • Mon, Mar 17, 2014 - 9:53pm

    #17
    RoseHip

    RoseHip

    Status: Bronze Member

    Joined: Feb 05 2013

    Posts: 145

    Wetico

    I feel and share in your frustrations, Joyce.

    We are currently in the midst of "the greatest epidemic sickness known to man" Many of us don't even realize this, as our collective insanity is so pervasive that it has become normalized. Our collective madness has become transparent to us, as we see and interpret the world through it, rendering our madness invisible, thereby unwittingly colluding with the collective psychosis that is wreaking incredible death and destruction on our planet.

    http://realitysandwich.com/75652/greatest_epidemic/

    Rose

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  • Mon, Mar 17, 2014 - 10:00pm

    #18
    agitating prop

    agitating prop

    Status: Silver Member

    Joined: May 28 2009

    Posts: 347

    If we aspire to be

    If we aspire to be entrepreneurs, based on the assumption that working as an employee is a one way ticket to chump-hood, is it fair to ask somebody to work under us, under the same dynamic?  

     

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  • Mon, Mar 17, 2014 - 10:05pm

    #19

    Arthur Robey

    Status: Platinum Member

    Joined: Feb 03 2010

    Posts: 1814

    It is all unfolding as it should.

    Mycelia form a matt that extend over vast areas. The purpose of that matt is to gather nutrients. When enough nutrients are available, the matt gathers together to form the fruiting body that we call a mushroom.

    We have spread across the planet gathering resources. When we have enough resources, all our Capital pools. To what purpose?

    I put it to you that it is to leave and take the spores with us. Any mushroom could understand this.

    And you thought you understood what was going on? Just who designed the Ape/Pig hybrid do you think-and to what purpose?

    I think McKenna has insight into our real design and purpose.

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  • Mon, Mar 17, 2014 - 10:41pm

    agitating prop

    agitating prop

    Status: Silver Member

    Joined: May 28 2009

    Posts: 347

    Arthur Robey wrote:Mycelia

    [quote=Arthur Robey]Mycelia form a matt that extend over vast areas. The purpose of that matt is to gather nutrients. When enough nutrients are available, the matt gathers together to form the fruiting body that we call a mushroom.
    We have spread across the planet gathering resources. When we have enough resources, all our Capital pools. To what purpose?
    I put it to you that it is to leave and take the spores with us. Any mushroom could understand this.
    And you thought you understood what was going on? Just who designed the Ape/Pig hybrid do you think-and to what purpose?
    I think McKenna has insight into our real design and purpose.

    [/quote]
     
    Hi Arthur,
    The mycelial mat gathers nutrients and forms life enhancing symbiotic relationships with plants in the process. It represents the very essence of the exchange that Kaimu has described. 
    Capitalism, as it is currently configured ignores the synergies of symbiosis. We've been trained to believe the competitive model is far superior to anything else out there. That may have been quite true for a good portion of history, but we are beyond that now.
    We have to move away from Serengeti Social Darwinism, where the 'best' lion gets all the rewards and move beneath the Serengeti, observe the mycelial networks and how closely they resemble digital networks and do like they do..
    After all, the mushrooms are conscious and likely smarter than we are--- just very very different.  

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  • Mon, Mar 17, 2014 - 11:55pm

    Wildlife Tracker

    Status: Silver Member

    Joined: Jan 14 2012

    Posts: 405

    Joyce

    [quote=jdye51]I'm very disappointed in what seems to me to be an increasing emphasis on PP on making money. It seems so at odds with the message of the "Crash Course". I imagine it's hard basing a web site business model on informing people of the coming collapse of industrial society when it appears to keep on going and going. My perception is that the PP "community" is narrowing to reflect those interested in money and finance over other issues. I notice some people who used to post here are doing so less or not at all. Where have they gone and why? I post less frequently and when I do I know what I have to say isn't really that welcome because I talk about the dangers from Fukushima and especially Climate Change, including the possibility of Near Term Extinction. I think there's a lot of denial on the part of many PPers on how much they are already affecting the planet and how quickly changes are happening. So I find it hard to get too worked up about how to make more money or in fantasies of the future that don't match the reality I see around me.
    [/quote]
    Joyce, I think we all agree with you, but here is the logic around money. Money is POWER and money is CHANGE.
    One of my favorite inspirations is a man named John Wamsley. He once said 

    "Money is the means for getting things done, so I had to make money. I was a millionaire by the time I turned 23."

    John Wamsley revolutionized conservation in Australia and New Zealand. He helped save the platypus and several other small mammals in Australia through his private Warrawong Sanctuary.
    He took his fortunes and was passionate about doing good with it. We need people to start doing good with their money and start "getting things done." 
    This however is NOT happening. Therefore I need to make money.

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  • Mon, Mar 17, 2014 - 11:55pm

    TechGuy

    TechGuy

    Status: Bronze Member

    Joined: Oct 13 2008

    Posts: 308

    Reply to Joyce

    "Tracker is advised not to work in food preparation or farm as a tenant. Why not? If one makes money the sole criteria, then it makes sense to seek out something else. But we can all see that currencies are failing. Maybe it makes more sense to have a skill, like cooking or farming, that will really be needed when money becomes worthless. Office worker? - not so much."Because working as a sharecropper or tenant farmer doesn't distance himself from a economic collapse. By working min. wage someone else is going to profit from his efforts. when the economy goes south or the landowner chooses to bring in illegal workers, He will be left with nothing, and be exposed to whatever hardship unfolds.
    "Do we really need another multinational company"
    That all depends. We need more companies that make better use of the remaining resources, such as companies that make homes more energy efficient, or make tools or devices that can operate with less resources. We need more business that can make us less dependant on the system and gov't too.
    "I'm very disappointed in what seems to me to be an increasing emphasis on PP on making money. It seems so at odds with the message of the "Crash Course"."
    Capital provides the means to aquire resources needed to become self-reliant. One cannot provide food,, shelter, and clothing without land and resources. Since late 1990's, when I became concerned about declining energy resources and excessive debt, I have been focused on saving as much capital so I to acquire land, tools and other resources to become self-reliant. Since that time I have not gone on an vacations, purchased any TVs or other entertainment devices. I've used my capital to purchase tools, equipment and books that will be used to become self-reliant. I also stated that he should use his free time to continue to learn agracultture and other skills needed to be self-reliant. 
    I think you are confusing the PP crowd with everyone else, the PP crowd is seeking money to become self-reliant. Some using to retro-fit their homes (better insulation, Solar panels, etc), other are using it to buy farm land to grow their own food. the Non-PP followers are interested spending money on McMansions, Luxary cars, big screen TV's, and flashy stuff. 
    If your not saving money and acquiring the resources you need to survive, when the credit/energy crunch fully unfolds what is your plan? Do you expect that the gov't will take care of you? Do you plan to head for the hills as a hunter-gatherer? What's your plan?
    In this new economy, its difficult to find good paying jobs. I think it's good idea to promote alterative options so that People on PP can acquire the resources they need to become self-reliant. Money is not the root of evil. It is a means for people to exchange resources. I think you believe greed and money are synonyms, and they are not. 
     

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  • Tue, Mar 18, 2014 - 12:01am

    #23

    Wildlife Tracker

    Status: Silver Member

    Joined: Jan 14 2012

    Posts: 405

    Thanks everybody

    I do think the strategies by Techguy and Poet are the ones I should follow (50% in the current paradigm and 50% in the future). I currently make a bit more (30-50% more) than half the United States on an annual basis, but half the country is technically impoverished with 24k salaries.

    It really isn't enough to get me where I want to be in the future and start making the change I want to see. It also doesn't make me happy.

    I also teach a bit of wildlife tracking every blue moon on the side. Doesn't provide any real income, but it makes me happy.

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  • Tue, Mar 18, 2014 - 12:29am

    jdye51

    jdye51

    Status: Bronze Member

    Joined: Feb 17 2011

    Posts: 151

    1) I believe it is knowledge

    1) I believe it is knowledge and practical skills that are the currency ahead. So farming and food prep are more valuable for what is already here than anything found in an office environment. With food scarcity, people are going to want to know how to grow their own food and how to prepare it. Food scarcity is already here for many around the world and is coming to the US as well. California is in a major drought that could last 100 years. It is our breadbasket and grows much of the produce and nuts we eat. What's going to happen when it can no longer do that? As it is, some growers are already not going to plant this season due to a lack of water. History says long droughts have already happened there and with rising temps, the West is drying out. The Colorado river is overtaxed as it is and water is increasingly scarce. Fracking is compromising our aquifers and wells.2) It's too late for energy efficiency to make much of a difference. We've passed tipping points. We're  not in charge - nature is.
    3) Ah - "The love of money is the root of all evil". It's quite seductive. No doubt there are many such as yourself who forego gadgets in order to be more resilient. Good for you. I am doing what I can as well.
    J
     

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  • Tue, Mar 18, 2014 - 12:50am

    Wildlife Tracker

    Status: Silver Member

    Joined: Jan 14 2012

    Posts: 405

    Joyce re:knowledge

    No doubt the future is going to be apocalyptic Joyce. Most of us recognize that. We have a single-resource based relationship with oil and I know what that means from an ecological perspective. It's very unmotivating.I don't think it will be the walking dead though where everybody is equal. There will be rich, and poor, and there will be the dead. 
    Disease and starvation will kill most of us (if not nuclear radiation) and there will be cannibalism and horrific scenes that I want nothing to be apart of. 
    I just don't think there will be the day when everyone is financially equal.
     

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  • Tue, Mar 18, 2014 - 1:12am

    jdye51

    jdye51

    Status: Bronze Member

    Joined: Feb 17 2011

    Posts: 151

    Wetiko

    Thanks for the link Rose. I've felt for a long time that this is a crazy place. We keep acting against our best interests and in an anti-life manner.Sadly, the wetiko virus appears to be winning.
    All the best to you.
    Joyce

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  • Tue, Mar 18, 2014 - 1:29am

    jdye51

    jdye51

    Status: Bronze Member

    Joined: Feb 17 2011

    Posts: 151

    The Future is Now

    Tracker I would say that the future is now. There are those who are already experiencing the effects of resource depletion - look at Egypt for example. We may be on the verge of a resource war with Russia over Ukraine. Russia is threatening to reject the dollar as the reserve currency and they hold a significant amount of our debt. They could very well follow through on that (along with China). If they do, the dollar is toast. Our currency will collapse as countries who have resented our reserve status work around us. It's already happening - see Iran.As our climate becomes more and more erratic, we are all affected - even the 1% aren't immune to planetary changes. With temperatures continually rising and no effort to stop it, there will be a point where the planet can no longer sustain human life - any human life. The scientists who are studying this say it can happen as soon as 2030. Until that happens, society will break down more and more and we will be left to our own devices. Money per se won't mean a thing. The ability to grow food and access clean water will be what is important.
    But we all make our own decisions. And none of us gets out alive anyway.
    I do wish you all the best whatever you decide.
    Joyce

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  • Tue, Mar 18, 2014 - 2:02am

    Wildlife Tracker

    Status: Silver Member

    Joined: Jan 14 2012

    Posts: 405

    Joyce

    People will continue to trade because its beneficial. We all have different skills and experiences, tools, and resources that we will need to trade for the things we lack and therefore money whether its gold, silver, or paper will have a role. Barter sucks. Money was an invention that will stay with mankind till the end in my opinion.Anyways, where the heck are such thoughtful women like you in this world? You are a rare breed Joyce.

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  • Tue, Mar 18, 2014 - 11:55am

    #29
    liz cowen

    liz cowen

    Status: Bronze Member

    Joined: Oct 14 2009

    Posts: 132

    jdye51 has written often and

    jdye51 has written often and consistently on the theme of what does all this matter if you aren't here to do it? and why are we talkng out of one side of our mouths on the blog while living the polluting lifestyle that is killing us.and why aren't we addressing the real problems by real change in our lives, not just token one.

     

    i've been an entrepreneur ,own a homestead, been part of the problem , been part of the solution.

     

    i've recently be diagnosed with stage 3 cancer. now i'm part of the consequence.

     

    ferralhen

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  • Tue, Mar 18, 2014 - 12:18pm

    Chris Martenson

    Chris Martenson

    Status: Platinum Member

    Joined: Jun 07 2007

    Posts: 5100

    Joyce's Assumptions

    Joyce,you've made a number of assumptions and then projected them widely upon the entire PP community and I'd like to offer my (very) different views on the matter.
    I 100% share your conviction that humans are rapidly destroying their one and only operating spaceship.  Further, it's not just about humans, its about all of life and  leaving enough for robust, resilient ecosystems that humans can then (hopefully) be smart enough to live within.
    The first assumption is that by talking about entrepreneurship we are talking about making money.  I understand that's the usual association, but it's actually far more than that.  
    [quote=jdye51]
    To me there is cognitive dissonance: on the one hand, we read on PP that the global economy is teetering on the edge of collapse. On the other hand, are interviews like this that advocate actions not really so different from Business As Usual. The focus is on being your own boss and using other people's skills to make money. Aside from some criticisms made in the above posts ( i.e. not everyone is cut out to be an entrepreneur), if the US currency is going to fail (and it will), what is the point? The whole system is going and you seem to be focused on how to profit from it as it collapses. How is that any different from those we have been criticizing on PP?
    [/quote]
    The point is that no matter which future arrives, whether it has dollars in it or something else because dollars have all gone - poof! - into money heaven, that the people of the PP community are prepared, resilient, whole and happy.  If 'preparing' means only stocking up on toilet paper and some wheat in a bucket, then we've failed miserably in our task.
    Entrepreneurship means exactly what I wrote above which is a frame of mind that allows one to (a) know what one's personal gifts are (healing, being a connector, metal working, organizing, trading/bartering, farming, mediating, etc) and (b) have the passion and confidence and experience necessary to bring those out into whatever circumstances exist at the moment.
    Perhaps those skills will make money while money exists, and perhaps they will be used in a completely money-less environment.  Who knows?
    But the time to begin working on those skills is right now....not after some collapse or massive state change has occurred.  This will be a big theme of the upcoming Rowe seminar.
    I personally have used this same mindset in my own life to both drop my personal consumption quite a bit and to increase my quality of life. 

    Tracker is advised not to work in food preparation or farm as a tenant. Why not? If one makes money  the sole criteria, then it makes sense to seek out something else. But we can all see that currencies are failing. Maybe it makes more sense to have a skill, like cooking or farming, that will really be needed when money becomes worthless. Office worker? - not so much.

    Yes, they are failed concepts, and possibly are failing, but they have not yet failed.  Currencies, for better or worse, are what people still use, so we use them too.  Yes, I think it makes sense for people to both accumulate currency now so as to be able to buy the items they want to become more resilient, and to then manage that money well (or have it managed well) for as long as the money system seems to be working. 
    Why?  Because that's one of the things none of us can personally control.  So we might as well not ceaselessly strive to control something that is out of our control.  The dollar, the Fed, federal government, BOJ, ECB and all the rest are going to do what they do with or without my consent.  
    To me the dominant strategy is to work within that failing system while it still works but be tirelessly finding ways to exist outside of that system in parallel.  

    The pursuit of fiat money is the siren that lures us onto the rocks of ego inflation. I imagine Mr. Kiyosaki is a perfectly nice person but he is still focused on the old paradigm - just tweaked a little to take back some power from the "haves" by saying all we need to do is become an entrepreneur so we're not dependent on someone else for a paycheck. In other words, how to be a "have" instead of a "have-not". It's nice that he wants to spread the word about the "Crash Course" but has he really understood the implications?

    Yes.  Far better than most.  

    Do we really need another multinational company raping and pillaging the planet? Do we really need more hotels or office complexes? What is the definition of value that best serves the whole? It seems to me we see all around us the consequences of valuing financial wealth over all else. Why would anyone at PP who is aware of the serious issues we face, want to do more of the same? Personal profit at the expense of people and the planet has helped create this mess.

    This is a grade A projection you've made right here.  You've associated entrepreneurship with global raping and pillaging and/or useless office complexes.  I'd be willing to guess that if we'd had a podcast on working smarter within your job that this same charge wouldn't have arisen, so my guess is that you are sickened by corporate behaviors and have linked those to the idea of entrepreneurship and - presto! - it's all just more of the same.
    To answer your question directly, yes, we do need another multinational corporation but one that carries the right values and operates very differently from any in the past.  There will always be people and they will always assemble into groups to accomplish things.  Whether we call such a group a 'multinational corporation' or 'Sweden' it's just people.
    I don't believe people are inherently evil so I don't believe corporations are inherently evil.  I do think people are inherently malleable and they respond and tuck into whatever structures exist and can act in an evil manner under the wrong conditions.  So this means we need to instill (install?) the right conditions.
    Enter the entrepreneur.  This is exactly what we are doing at PP.  This is my personal mission.  I am creating a world worth inheriting.  
    But it's not an easy task and it is not a linear process.  Where does one begin dismantling both personal and cultural narratives that have been operating for millennia?  Because that's the actual task here - installing a new narrative to replace the old one.
    It's not about information - oh how I wish it were! - because information alone has almost no impact on people's behaviors and decisions (see the Ariely podcast for that).  We can show people thousands of pieces of data on our dying planet and all that will result is temporary psychological discomfort followed immediately by business as usual.
    Instead it's about changing the underlying belief structures and those cannot be changed all at once or too rapidly.  That's the bad news.  The good news is that I happen to be very good at providing information in such a way as to carefully work within the existing belief structures to avoid tripping the usual assortment of 'belief gates' that guard against troubling information.  At least for those are ready to hear the message.
    And Adam and Becca and I work hard to coach people in how to become effective ambassadors for this information too...which brings me to:

    I'm very disappointed in what seems to me to be an increasing emphasis on PP on making money. It seems so at odds with the message of the "Crash Course". I imagine it's hard basing a web site business model on informing people of the coming collapse of industrial society when it appears to keep on going and going. My perception is that the PP "community" is narrowing to reflect those interested in money and finance over other issues. 

    What I'm about to say may sound defensive but I am really at peace with it.  I cannot do what I do without making money at it.  There's a pretty steady undercurrent that I swim against which charges that it's a major conflict to both offer the Crash Course and the idea of making money.  It's as if I should somehow be offering all this for free, and then it would be more consistent, more pure, somehow more believable.
    Of course, that would be a thin, transparent falsehood because to do this for free would simply have meant I would have earned a lot of money somewhere else and now be spending it rapidly to offer this for "free."
    No matter when or where you live, it takes money, or capital if you prefer, to get things done.  Right now that happens to be fiat currencies and so that's what we use.  To me there's no conflict at all in this position.  It simply is.
    And if the world shifts and these currencies are no longer functional I will shift rapidly to the new form of capital and I will know exactly how to do that because I have flexed my entrepreneurial muscles along the way and already done the hard work of detaching my emotional connections to the old system of money. 
    I know my value and how to offer it.  I will always have a productive position in society, not because I am more special than other people, but because I have done the hard work of dismantling the belief systems I was handed as a kid and installing new ones that comport better with the information at hand.
    It ain't easy, but it's necessary.  
    In closing, I share your frustration that our meager efforts seem to be too little, too late.  That's probably true.  But I also believe that we have to become the change we wish to see, and that we still can control many elements of our destiny, and that's the work we do here.  And, yes, right now that regularly involves earning and managing money, as it currently exists.

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  • Tue, Mar 18, 2014 - 1:39pm

    #31

    westcoastjan

    Status: Bronze Member

    Joined: Jun 04 2012

    Posts: 385

    Floundering in the neutral zone

    Having recently re- read the book "Transitions-Making Sense of Life's Changes", I cannot help but see that humans as a whole are currently stuck in a giant neutral zone of confusion, where we have not yet closed the door on that which is ending, nor have we totally transitioned into the new. As a species it seems we are stuck in this middle ground, not sure what to do or which way to turn, some of us floundering badly in reaction to pending changes, others less so.

    I share in Joyce's emotional angst, as well as in Chris's well written response. Both have valid points which resonate with me. My heart is heavy for ferralhen - I am so sorry to hear of your diagnosis. My thoughts and prayers are with you.

    I recently went on a vacation to Mexico. It was so weird. I had not had a vacation for a long time and was much in need of rest. Yet there I sat in the sun thinking to myself that I was a hypocrite for even being there. The emotional head games diminished the enjoyment of my trip. It seemed there was always some measure of guilt to counteract the pleasure. I was and remain very conscious of the fact that such a trip is a a real privilege in this world. Yet I felt compelled to go, for what I feel to be valid reasons. Maybe next week or next year I will get a diagnosis like ferralhen. Maybe next year or 5 years from now traveling anywhere will be so exorbitantly expensive due to scarce resources that no one save for the 1% will be going anywhere.

    We live in a new era of unknowns, and it is unknowns that cause the discomfort while in the neutral zone. Many clamber to hang on to the old, unwilling or unable to change old behaviours in order to move forward. Some are more willing and are therefore taking that first step into the new, before it is fully formed. It is the neutral zone that requires the intense level of emotional resiliency.

    I just turned 55. With that comes the recognition that, if my health is maintained, I have but 20 years left of what I would call active living. I have come to the decision that this means I better get off my duff and start enjoying life to the max. Time is flying. It does not mean party hearty, but neither does it mean prep til there's no tomorrow. The preps I have made thus far will allow me to enjoy life more, knowing that my situational awareness has led me to take some steps to mitigate potential risks. So much is out of my hands - currency values, interest rates, ecological devastation, cancer... all I can do is what I have been doing: be a good human being, have a small eco footprint, care about what is going on via my actions, and then in spite of the doom and gloom, try to enjoy my life as much as possible. And that is exactly what I am going to do.

    Jan

     

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  • Tue, Mar 18, 2014 - 2:51pm

    VeganDB12

    VeganDB12

    Status: Bronze Member

    Joined: Jul 18 2008

    Posts: 201

    Sorry to hear Ferralhen

    I and I am sure the others on this thread wishing you best during this time.Denise

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  • Tue, Mar 18, 2014 - 3:41pm

    #33
    treemagnet

    treemagnet

    Status: Silver Member

    Joined: Feb 14 2011

    Posts: 279

    Am I bad?

    Jdye51...but the more diesel I burn the more I make.  My employees will never, ever get rich working for me.  I use and destroy THOUSANDS (and I mean many thousands) of pounds of paper products each year.  I seek out work that makes the most sense and avoid all known 'headache jobs' and charity cases.  I comply with all the rules, and no more.  I play by the rules, and they aren't always 'fair' - to either me or the customer...or 'you'.  I do what the customer has requested I do, to offer them the services they will pay for, and no more.  Am I bad?  Why? 

    Wildlife Tracker, if you want my advice, do what you enjoy - if doing a brisk business of selling life jackets on the Titanic appeals to you, go for it and don't worry about repeat customers (mind your margins heh heh heh..).  Its your life, and don't ever let nadering nabobs tell you its good or bad, fair or just, or anything else, and don't look for someone to blow sunshine up your rear. 

    Personally, I don't think it matters - we're all on that Titanic, and fortune building and wealth accumulation seem a tad optimistic to me - later on, sure.  I would rather focus on the next phase while getting through this....this gruesome ordeal coming straight at us.  What do you want out of life and what do you have to do to achieve it?  Its the 'have to do' part many don't care for I've found - especially since so many of us have had to commit to something early on and stay with it as events unfold, change, and make previous choices unattractive in a maelstrom of change. 

    I tell my kids 'don't tell me what you're going to do, show me what you've done'.  Good luck.

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  • Tue, Mar 18, 2014 - 4:06pm

    #34
    RoseHip

    RoseHip

    Status: Bronze Member

    Joined: Feb 05 2013

    Posts: 145

    A new paradigm

    What I'm about to say may sound defensive but I am really at peace with it.  I cannot do what I do without making money at it.  There's a pretty steady undercurrent that I swim against which charges that it's a major conflict to both offer the Crash Course and the idea of making money.  It's as if I should somehow be offering all this for free, and then it would be more consistent, more pure, somehow more believable.

    With all due respect I don't think your looking at or understanding the other possibilities. It would seem you are considering only two paths to do what you do, a money subscription or a free model (black or white, one works the other doesn't). There is a third way as well and probably many more, a gift model! I just so happens that you interviewed a very successful Charles Eisenstein that has embraced and lived this model in regards to his own truth and work and currently he isn't destitute. Maybe you read Ascent of Humanity? This is the where and how I became aware and conscious of your work, which I am greatly appreciative of. You do fabulous work Dr. Martenson!

    It is my experiences with this same gift model that if I give away what I do to those in need with out the scarcity issue that's created when one implements the paradigm of today's money gathering techniques.  I will and have received what I need. And more importantly I spend no time or effort building or creating expectations of what it is I am owed! I am simply in relationships with those that find me valuable and if they want me to continue then well I do have needs.

    This does not mean that one has to work from outside the system, you just may find as I have that you become more wealthy in terms of money/resources.This is a place of vulnerability and risk and reward and not an experiment for weak spirits, which I do not presume you to be. If this is a model that calls to you to explore you may find that your product and how you do what you do changes in many unpredictable and positive ways.

    I don't believe people are inherently evil so I don't believe corporations are inherently evil.  I do think people are inherently malleable and they respond and tuck into whatever structures exist and can act in an evil manner under the wrong conditions.  So this means we need to instill (install?) the right conditions.

    So install away....What is stopping you? I would support you! As I prefer to not face this world without your wonderful talents that support me in return, maybe others feel this same way?

    Rose

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  • Tue, Mar 18, 2014 - 6:48pm

    agitating prop

    agitating prop

    Status: Silver Member

    Joined: May 28 2009

    Posts: 347

    Kaimu--Thank You!

    You have written something potentially very helpful here!  I love the ideas you have brought forward and would welcome their implementation!Ironically, Jeremy Rifkin wrote a piece for the New York Times describing the future of our economy and the death of capitalism, as it is currently configured. It reminded me of what you have written here. I will take a look for it and link to it sometime today unless somebody else beats me to it!  
     
     
     
     

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  • Tue, Mar 18, 2014 - 7:39pm

    jdye51

    jdye51

    Status: Bronze Member

    Joined: Feb 17 2011

    Posts: 151

    Chris thank you for your

    Chris thank you for your reply.From what I gather, your view of the future of humanity is that we will continue on but in a different way than in the past.
    What I'm saying is that we have so completely trashed the planet that we have no future. So we are coming from very different assumptions, speaking of assumptions.
    What you're doing makes perfect sense according to your belief. Having skills and knowing how to use them, making money while it lasts to increase personal resilience and all the rest follow along quite logically based on your view of where we are headed. You do it well and I have benefited from your hard work as much as anyone on PP and for that I thank you. This isn't personal so there's no need for any defensiveness at all.
    What has happened for me, and I'm just talking about me not anyone else, is that as I have become more aware of the true state of the health of the planet, I have realized that we are on a path towards extinction and one that is coming so quickly that there isn't anything we can do to reverse it. Once I realized that, everything shifted for me. I tried to share what I was learning here but it didn't appear to go over well because a) it's really depressing, and b) it's really depressing. No one wants to think that it's all over and our actions, no matter how well intended and thought out, are fruitless to avert catastrophe on a planetary level. From what I understand, it's too late to be the change we wish to see and there won't always be people. There will be no world to inherit. So can you see why this doesn't work for me anymore? Imagine coming to this realization. Put yourself in my shoes even for moment and you can see why I reacted the way I did. To think that we have only a couple of decades during which life will be increasingly challenged to cope with the enormous changes happening, is to fundamentally alter one's priorities.
    So we just see things differently. Imagine, like Ferralhen (my heart and prayers go out to you), you've done everything right as an entrepreneur and prepper, and you still end up with Stage 3 cancer. From what I see, we are all facing the prospect of our own deaths and those of all we care about in addition to the world we've known around us. From my perspective, all of our lifespans will be limited by larger planetary forces over which we have no control. Hope is a hard thing to let go of and I have struggled mightily with how to wrap my brain around NTE. I see that you and many others here at PP still have hope. That's the difference. I have let go of it and replaced it with acceptance.
    It's not my job or my intention to try to convince anyone else of the validity of my perspective. I've come to my own conclusions based on the information that's out there. But I find I can no longer participate in discussions about things that have less meaning for me based on my view of a limited and increasingly difficult future. It just logically follows, don't you agree? Just as it does for you based on your version of the future. Believe me, I'd rather your version. I haven't come to mine easily or lightly. You certainly hold a space for those new to the whole idea of the 3 E's. I'm grateful for that, but I see we've come to different conclusions about the outcome. And everything else hinges on that. So while my husband and I will put together raised beds and continue to do many of the other types of preps, it's with the thought that these are temporary and will most likely only be of benefit in these earlier stages of climate change before things become too chaotic.
    Two final points. It is my view that multinational corporations are a part of the paradigm that has brought us to this terrible place. Why would I want to see more of that kind of thinking? And, from what I observe of human nature, I don't see it changing in the sort of fundamental way that would allow for such an entity to remain benign for long no matter how it was set up. Self-interest, greed and arrogance, as history has shown us, eventually creep in. So the forms don't matter so much, it's who we are as a species that does. As I look around me, I'm not encouraged and when you add on the threat of NTE, I see that there just isn't sufficient time on a long enough scale for the further evolution of our species before the consequences of our actions/inactions kick in. Our technology has advanced more rapidly than our moral development. But that's just how I see it.
    Finally, I notice that my original post on this thread has gotten quite a few thumbs up. I don't say this from a place of ego - not at all. What it says to me, is that something about at least a part of what I said resonated with some people. I would hope that if others have something they'd like to express but are afraid to, they do so anyway. It seems to me that fewer of the women especially are posting as frequently as they have in the past. My impression is that PP has become increasingly dominated by a narrow group focused on a specific area, namely money and finance. I'm thinking that is because it is something you are interested in and feel you can add to. That's what I meant when I said I thought PP is too focused on making money - at the expense of the other the other two E's. To me, it's become unbalanced. Or, it may be that the focus of PP has just shifted more in that direction based on the interests of those with the loudest voices, so to speak. If so, I encourage those with different interests to speak up more. Perhaps at least part of the reason is that you see you can't do anything to affect climate change or the economy - as you said in your reply regarding the Fed etc., so you are focusing on the one area where you feel you can add value while waiting for the inevitable collapse. Understandable. Just be sure you are clear about that so there isn't any misunderstanding or feeling that certain subjects pertaining to any of the three E's are unwelcome. Like I have with NTE. Of course, this is my parting feedback and you are under no obligation to agree or act on it in any way. It's your website. I'm telling what I see because I do appreciate who you are and your desire to help. These are observations, not an attack.
    I still have time on my membership but won't be renewing it after it expires. I imagine I'll still check in with PP from time to time even after I'm no longer a member so I'm not leaving with hard feelings. This way I won't feel frustrated and no one here will have to put up with my dark posts! I have much affection and appreciation for all who participate here. I just need to follow where my heart and mind are leading me. Like you did Chris when you left the corporate world and made your shift. So I think you understand. We are each doing what we feel is right for us as individuals.
    Many thanks to all and best wishes ahead,
    Joyce
     
     
     

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  • Tue, Mar 18, 2014 - 8:14pm

    #37

    HughK

    Status: Gold Member

    Joined: Mar 06 2012

    Posts: 571

    Congrats and clicking fast and slow

    Dear Joyce, Chris and all,

    First of all, congratulations to Chris, Adam, and the whole Peak Prosperity team for your success in the form of Kiyosaki's willingness to spend the time learning about the Crash Course and to share your ideas with his employees.  That must be a very satisfying milestone, and I'm also glad these ideas are spreading through those channels.  

    Second, I thumbed-up Joyce's original message, and now I see that it got quite a lot of clicks.  When I did that, I had only skimmed the message, so I am probably guilty of less-than-responsible liking.  Chris, sorry for that.  I clicked on the thumbs up button because after my cursory glance I wanted to concur with Joyce that it is important to integrate a deeper exploration and presentation of the environment into PP and the Crash Course, as there is a well-justified case to be made for the third E being by far the most significant.

    But, after reading the message more carefully, I can see that my clicking would also come across as supportive of some of the more critical and less constructive statements in the message.  Joyce, just for the record, my messages sometimes also contain overly critical lines as well, so I'm not trying to point the finger at you.  There's an optimal point between constructive debate and less-helpful criticism or sarcasm, and I don't always land in that ideal range, but I think we all try to remain positive while also allowing different - sometimes conflicting - ideas to engage, and I think most of us also try to improve on this as we are here for longer periods of time, and become more self-aware and more aware of others in the community.

    Perhaps another reason that I clicked on Joyce's message is that Robert Kiyosaki's approach contains what I perceive as a little too much ticky-tacky marketing for my tastes, and so maybe - whether for simply esthetic or substantive reasons - I also wanted to express my hope that Peak Prosperity maintains its higher quality approach to personal change.

    But, in the end, maybe my decision to like that post was due to a gut reaction on my part...just some fast skimming, fast thinking and fast clicking while on a break from work.  More slow thinking before deciding whether or not to click was probably warranted in this case.

    Chris, I am glad that you are skilled at presenting information in a way that is less likely to trigger people's emotional and/or cognitive defense mechanisms, and I have really benefited a lot from your references to Dan Ariely and behavioral economics, as this overlaps significantly with some of the material and the approach present in a class that I teach.  That is just one way that I gain a lot of professional development - as well as personal satisfaction - from participating in this virtual community.

    I also love fact that there is a good deal of real, substantive dialog here.  While sometimes it's a little edgy, for the most part we all do our best at respecting each other and I have been exposed to all kinds of interesting and provocative ideas since I started coming here.  So, thanks to all for exposing yourselves.  🙂

    Cheers,

    Hugh

     

     

     

     

     

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  • Tue, Mar 18, 2014 - 8:41pm

    darbikrash

    Status: Gold Member

    Joined: Aug 25 2009

    Posts: 297

    agitating prop wrote:You

    [quote=agitating prop]You have written something potentially very helpful here!  I love the ideas you have brought forward and would welcome their implementation!
    Ironically, Jeremy Rifkin wrote a piece for the New York Times describing the future of our economy and the death of capitalism, as it is currently configured. It reminded me of what you have written here. I will take a look for it and link to it sometime today unless somebody else beats me to it!  
    [/quote]
     
    Always great to see your posts AP. I had to chuckle on the Jeremy Rifkin reference- this is exactly what I thought of when I read the transcripts from the podcast. I read this thread on Sunday morning, and within an hour read Rifkin's editorial in the Times, and was struck by the sense that one person was completely off the rails with obsolete thinking, and the other was dangerously close to making sense. I'll post the link here and let readers make up their own minds.
    Link
     
    Kiyosaki's contention that people should search out rent seeking vocations, valorizing the rentier class structure whilst masquerading as "entrepreneurs" is a disappointing exercise in the last century's capitalism.
    Of course, the interview is liberally interspersed with neo-Austrian references to the Mises clan of historical revisionists and grifters, as well as the obligatory bowing of heads to Ayn Rand as the only means of legitimizing one's self to the endorsement of such vocation.
    What if everyone was a rent seeker- who then Mr. Kiyosaki, pays the rent?
     
    Rifkin hones in on the easily defeated ideological model that is surrounded by neo-classical economics- of which Austrian theory is a major subscriber. According to this model, value is determined by the markets, by marginal utility- by preference and demand curves with Pareto compliant outcomes. By the Rational Consumer.
    Which is to say they have no coherent theory of value.
    Examine Rifkin’s examples of Napster for example, and a distributing conclusion arises, which is that consumers now expect that commodities have low-or no- marginal cost. People downloaded Napster music for free, and in the ultimate smack down to the flag waving libertarians, it took the State to bring the consumer back to the cash register. So much for the free market. All of this of course is predicted by the labor theory of value, which says that a commodity is worth the sum of the labor content to reproduce it. And as it turns out, if you download a song for free in 15 seconds, that is exactly what it is worth- nothing. And it takes the State to enforce a monopoly to demand payment, as with software, as with websites, and to Rifkin’s point, an ever increasingly larger share of modern commodities.
     
    As for the budding entrepreneurs?
     
    Who is going to buy their commodities if the competitive products are free?
     
    How does a worker earn a salary when the product they make can be obtained for free?
     
    [Quote=Jeremy Rifkin]

    Nowhere is the zero marginal cost phenomenon having more impact than the labor market, where workerless factories and offices, virtual retailing and automated logistics and transport networks are becoming more prevalent. Not surprisingly, the new employment opportunities lie in the collaborative commons in fields that tend to be nonprofit and strengthen social infrastructure — education, health care, aiding the poor, environmental restoration, child care and care for the elderly, the promotion of the arts and recreation. In the United States, the number of nonprofit organizations grew by approximately 25 percent between 2001 and 2011, from 1.3 million to 1.6 million, compared with profit-making enterprises, which grew by a mere one-half of 1 percent. In the United States, Canada and Britain, employment in the nonprofit sector currently exceeds 10 percent of the work force.

     
    As for the entrepreneur hitting it big with the next new idea? Mr. Kiyosaki might be better advised to suggest lottery tickets to his conference attendees, the odds are better and the exposure much lower. 

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  • Tue, Mar 18, 2014 - 10:25pm

    #39

    jtwalsh

    Status: Bronze Member

    Joined: Oct 01 2008

    Posts: 267

    In summation

    Chris said "I am creating a world worth inheriting."

    That is why I am here. That is what I want to spend my remaining twenty so years pursuing.

    That is the fundamental difference in perspective between myself and Joyce.  As bad as things are, and may get, I still believe there is a future.  I want to be there to meet it. I want to help build it.  I hope to live long enough to be the one to introduce my grandchildren to it.

    Ferral Hen, my thoughts a prayers are with you. I love your posts. I hope we can return the favor by occasionally bringing you some cheer and comfort with our comments.

    JT

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  • Tue, Mar 18, 2014 - 10:28pm

    #40

    Jim H

    Status: Bronze Member

    Joined: Jun 08 2009

    Posts: 1105

    Darbikrash

    Rifkin hones in on the easily defeated ideological model that is surrounded by neo-classical economics- of which Austrian theory is a major subscriber. According to this model, value is determined by the markets

    We are lucky to have someone here who is smart enough and wise enough to be in charge of the centrally planned non-free markets that will supercede our current version of (mostly) centrally planned "free" markets, because I am certainly not smart enough to run them.  That being said, can I be in charge of yield maximization for the grinding up and recycling of retired industrial robots?  I will post my control charts on the wall and we will run a lean 8s on the whole operation.  Oh wait... maybe lean is not cool any more in our centrally planned labor maximizing and valuing future.  I am so confused...so much to unlearn.  Maybe I can just sharpen the robot grinder blades as needed...            

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  • Tue, Mar 18, 2014 - 10:38pm

    liz cowen

    liz cowen

    Status: Bronze Member

    Joined: Oct 14 2009

    Posts: 132

    thank you joyce,  for your

    thank you joyce,  for your thoughts and prayers. and yes the future IS now for me. your version not chris's  . i am part of NTE..i don't think i am an isolated case of cancer. cancer is stepping up to be the number one cause of death in america.  i don't think it's turned out to be a nuclear war that i need to duck and cover from.  it's the byproducts of multinational and local companies pursuing their own false sense of wealth that have dumped metric tons of toxic carcinogenic material in the land , waters and atmosphere.  mankind has been so busy chasing an illusion of real wealth, and failing to notice that they are making the very things we need to survive toxic. we've been crapping on our cook stove and gardens.every  time every one of you use a gallon of gasoline, you are killing me and yourselves and your families...whether you  choose to see that, believe that. or know that. your thinking can not magically transform pollution into a harmless compound. and writing such thoughts are still just magical thinking and fooling only yourselves.folks i am dying from toxic greed. it does not matter what opinion you have....my body is eating itself from the inside out. you can't stop it. for me or your self or your wife or your children or your grandchildren.
    modern technology failed to detect the cancer .technology is not the answer.  the pollution is already in place.  the damage done.the seeds of future damage half lifeing away for the next 28K years. this isn't dramatic. it's real. the surgeons knife is very real. i'm glad there still is one to go to.
    i just got cancer before you did chris. and everyone of you out there. so my thoughts and prayers go to you, especially if you don't realize this kernel of reality that exists for us all.
    joyce, i let my paid membership go a long time ago but i still swing by now and again, to converse with people like you . i hope in the future you aren't a stranger and swing by now and then to share your thoughts with us.
    lastly i like you thoughts  and actions joyce,  to actively transform hope into acceptance, because that seems the most appropriate response to the predicament we the people finds ourselves in.
     
    my true warrior spirit urges me on to a brutal 7 month assault of chemicals and radiation to try to prevent the cancer from spreading to my bones. but that will be it. futility lurks everywhere i look.
    i know i might be temporarily cured only to have a new primary site of cancer.... because i realize the world i live in has become toxic.too toxic for me to survive in in spite of my heroic efforts.
     
    my best to all who care
     
    ferral hen
     
     
     
    ferral hen
     
     
     
     
     

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  • Tue, Mar 18, 2014 - 11:14pm

    darbikrash

    Status: Gold Member

    Joined: Aug 25 2009

    Posts: 297

    Jim H wrote:Rifkin hones in

    [quote=Jim H]

    Rifkin hones in on the easily defeated ideological model that is surrounded by neo-classical economics- of which Austrian theory is a major subscriber. According to this model, value is determined by the markets

    We are lucky to have someone here who is smart enough and wise enough to be in charge of the centrally planned non-free markets that will supercede our current version of (mostly) centrally planned "free" markets, because I am certainly not smart enough to run them.  That being said, can I be in charge of yield maximization for the grinding up and recycling of retired industrial robots?  I will post my control charts on the wall and we will run a lean 8s on the whole operation.  Oh wait... maybe lean is not cool any more in our centrally planned labor maximizing and valuing future.  I am so confused...so much to unlearn.  Maybe I can just sharpen the robot grinder blades as needed...            
    [/quote]
    Why yes, and as per Rifkin’s examples, the omnipotent free market forces have spoken….. And they have concluded that the value for much of the new commodities that consumes the not-so free time of the industrial worker is precisely……zero.
     
    All this crowing about monetary systems and overreaching regulation comes to a screeching halt when a zero marginal cost commodity has to pay someone an income- so they can eat.
     
    Damn details!

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  • Wed, Mar 19, 2014 - 12:53am

    #43
    lunableu22

    lunableu22

    Status: Member

    Joined: Oct 19 2011

    Posts: 50

    Cautionary Tale Re: Non-for-Profits

    Once upon a time ago, I worked for a community hospital, funded by the local community.  Somehow, it acquired a board of directors and ceased to be a community hospital.  Then a giant healthcare conglomerate bought it out (at under-market price) and it became a for-profit, in order to capture other people's money in the form of shareholders.  Then Bill Frist decided to run for president and all of a sudden, this exact same hospital had to be not-for-profit since it is easier to fund your run for president from not-for-profit accounting sleight-of-hand.  So...my takeaway from all this is that when you are trying to get rich in less than scrupulous ways, gaming the system works pretty well.

    And not-for-profit sounds far more benign than it might actually be.

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  • Wed, Mar 19, 2014 - 1:24am

    #44
    robie robinson

    robie robinson

    Status: Gold Member

    Joined: Aug 25 2009

    Posts: 967

    a notion to heed

    We have lived by the assumption that what was good for us would be good for the world. We have been wrong. … live by the contrary assumption that what is good for the world will be good for us. Wendell Berry

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  • Wed, Mar 19, 2014 - 1:53am

    troof

    troof

    Status: Member

    Joined: Sep 15 2013

    Posts: 37

    jtwalsh wrote:Chris said "I

    [quote=jtwalsh]
    Chris said "I am creating a world worth inheriting."
    [/quote]
    This sounds remotely like a quote from Hitler.  What an ego!

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  • Wed, Mar 19, 2014 - 1:55am

    troof

    troof

    Status: Member

    Joined: Sep 15 2013

    Posts: 37

    HughK wrote:Dear Joyce,

    [quote=HughK]
    Dear Joyce, Chris and all,
    First of all, congratulations to Chris, Adam, and the whole Peak Prosperity team for your success in the form of Kiyosaki's willingness to spend the time learning about the Crash Course and to share your ideas with his employees.  That must be a very satisfying milestone, and I'm also glad these ideas are spreading through those channels.  
    Second, I thumbed-up Joyce's original message, and now I see that it got quite a lot of clicks.  When I did that, I had only skimmed the message, so I am probably guilty of less-than-responsible liking.  Chris, sorry for that.  I clicked on the thumbs up button because after my cursory glance I wanted to concur with Joyce that it is important to integrate a deeper exploration and presentation of the environment into PP and the Crash Course, as there is a well-justified case to be made for the third E being by far the most significant.
    But, after reading the message more carefully, I can see that my clicking would also come across as supportive of some of the more critical and less constructive statements in the message.  Joyce, just for the record, my messages sometimes also contain overly critical lines as well, so I'm not trying to point the finger at you.  There's an optimal point between constructive debate and less-helpful criticism or sarcasm, and I don't always land in that ideal range, but I think we all try to remain positive while also allowing different - sometimes conflicting - ideas to engage, and I think most of us also try to improve on this as we are here for longer periods of time, and become more self-aware and more aware of others in the community.
    Perhaps another reason that I clicked on Joyce's message is that Robert Kiyosaki's approach contains what I perceive as a little too much ticky-tacky marketing for my tastes, and so maybe - whether for simply esthetic or substantive reasons - I also wanted to express my hope that Peak Prosperity maintains its higher quality approach to personal change.
    But, in the end, maybe my decision to like that post was due to a gut reaction on my part...just some fast skimming, fast thinking and fast clicking while on a break from work.  More slow thinking before deciding whether or not to click was probably warranted in this case.
    Chris, I am glad that you are skilled at presenting information in a way that is less likely to trigger people's emotional and/or cognitive defense mechanisms, and I have really benefited a lot from your references to Dan Ariely and behavioral economics, as this overlaps significantly with some of the material and the approach present in a class that I teach.  That is just one way that I gain a lot of professional development - as well as personal satisfaction - from participating in this virtual community.
    I also love fact that there is a good deal of real, substantive dialog here.  While sometimes it's a little edgy, for the most part we all do our best at respecting each other and I have been exposed to all kinds of interesting and provocative ideas since I started coming here.  So, thanks to all for exposing yourselves.  🙂
    Cheers,
    Hugh
     
     
     
     
     
    [/quote]
    I vote HughK Asskisser of The Year Award!

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  • Wed, Mar 19, 2014 - 2:25am

    #47
    michael1

    michael1

    Status: Member

    Joined: Mar 19 2014

    Posts: 4

    Dumb and dumber

    I can't belief the foolishness here.

    The problem with pubic entrepreneurism such as that of Robert's and Chris's is that it attracts undue attention.  If one is ultra wealthy, one has security.  But if one is wealthy but not extremely so, one is more vulnerable to security risks.  If one is not wise, one increases one's personal risk considerably.  For examp;e, Chris has mentioned making several large purchases from Tulving over the years.  That tells you he has sizeable quantities of PMs.  He's smart enough to know, if you don't hold it, you don't own it.  Therefore, he does not have it in a safe deposit box or anyplace other than his home.  That tells you where it is.  In time of collapse, power will not come from wealth.  Power will come from power.  Who do you think will have more power?  Someone with $10 million in assets or a team of well-trained, highly capable former military spec-ops who have the means to take that $10 million from someone who has it.  They will go after easy targets.  If you're advertising yourself and you're advertising your wealth but you are limited in your means of protecting it, you present yourself as an easy target.  Take lessons from this situation people and don't make these same foolish mistakes.

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  • Wed, Mar 19, 2014 - 2:56am

    #48
    FreeNL

    FreeNL

    Status: Bronze Member

    Joined: Mar 27 2013

    Posts: 90

    and thus, as they say,

    and thus, as they say, location is everything.

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  • Wed, Mar 19, 2014 - 3:32am

    #49

    Jim H

    Status: Bronze Member

    Joined: Jun 08 2009

    Posts: 1105

    Real Stuff

    Will never be worth zero.  

    Darbikrash said,

    All this crowing about monetary systems and overreaching regulation comes to a screeching halt when a zero marginal cost commodity has to pay someone an income- so they can eat.

    You pick and choose your examples.... sure, music files and digitized movie files can move around freely.  But a live concert, or a chair, or a summer stock show will never be free because they will never have zero marginal value.  Maybe our whole problem is that we ascribe value to the wrong things.. maybe movie stars are really not worth $20M per production.  Silly markets.. silly Bernays.    

    I don't disagree with you Darbikrash that everybody deserves to eat... if I were to re-invent the system myself, it would provide a base share of the earth's bounty to everyone through some kind of redistribution... but it would also leave a free market system to function in order to create the opportunity for those who have the wherewithal to innovate to do so and find increased wealth in doing so.  It would be a hybrid.  What would your ideal system look like?  How does a better system work? 

    By the way... I want to note that it does feel weird talking about this econ stuff in this string, knowing that one of our own, Ferralhen, is stricken with cancer.  Thoughts to her, and prayers that her immune system strengthens against her cancer, in conjunction with other therapies, are on their way from this Ann Arbor boy. 

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  • Wed, Mar 19, 2014 - 3:59am

    #50
    treebeard

    treebeard

    Status: Bronze Member

    Joined: Apr 18 2010

    Posts: 558

    The pain of transformation

    These were both difficult and beautiful posts to read. The pain of personal transformation is impacting us all. We are losing ourselves so that we might find ourselves. When all hope is lost, true hope can be found.  When we die and fear disappears, we can start to live. When we become fearless, all things become possible.  Those who seek to gain the world shall lose it, those who give up the world shall find it.

    Thanks to those who shared their darkness so that the rest of us may bathe in their light.  I offer my humble thoughts and prayers which are so little compared to those who shared their struggles here, thank you.

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  • Wed, Mar 19, 2014 - 4:23am

    #51
    eexpo

    eexpo

    Status: Member

    Joined: Jun 30 2011

    Posts: 44

    Really folks....

    Nihil sub sole novum . Where is that damn channel changer?!

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  • Wed, Mar 19, 2014 - 4:34am

    #52

    Sterling Cornaby

    Status: Bronze Member

    Joined: Sep 05 2012

    Posts: 150

    This thread has taken a life of its own

    This thread has taken a life of its own;

    Entrepreneurship: It makes sense to me but is really going to take some time to figure out. I know I have a mind of a flea. I have zero interest in being “rich”, but I do want to provide value to some community, without running through a corporation which has a soulless interior—(my car pool partner, who worked at this company I work for 20 years quit, giving his last two weeks. A week later they walked him out the door… soulless! ). I would like to believe I might make this transition in the future, but keep it small.

    Wildlife Tracker: Great questions; I am sorry I don’t have any substantial answers.

    TechGuy & Poet: you have some great advice on nuts and bolts entrepreneurship.

    Kainu: you hit some chords with me about communities. I have narrow ideas how to even be an effective community member, let alone build one.

    Joyce: I am trying to empathize, but my views are different. I do respect your view point; I want to hear it. My view is we humans will burn all the carbon we can get are hands on, and then then our major part in climate change, species killing, etc., is close to done and we will get what we get. We will go through a very rough time, for a long time, with some degree of depopulation and suffering, and then the earth will emerge on the other side changed somehow. The mushrooms will still be here, they have figured it out, they have eons of time figured out (well unless we go the way of Venus). I believe humanity on the earth is up to us, and yes we are misbehaving; but it is not over. Maybe people will go away, in a few hundred years and maybe not. I save the end of the life on earth for the time the sun goes red giant and burns up the earth in a billion years or so. Who knows, I might be dead wrong and all that. One thing is for sure, every year views can change; my views sure have.

    RoseHip: I am tired of vampires and also tired of vampires trying to convert me to their cause all the time.

    Ferralhen: Sorry to hear your diagnosis. I know very little about you, but I have been reading your comments. I just put a reminder on my calendar to think of you in three years. I can do this for you.

    Chris: I agree, let’s do what we can to get there (wherever we end up).

    WestCoastjan: I am OK with you going on your trip; burn that gas, and use some resources. Humanity is hell bent on burning all carbon and resources up anyway. Don’t feel too guilty, it is our destiny even if we would like it to be different. We are going to deal with the fallout regardless of our level of participation.

    All of you, thank you for all of your valuable insights.

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  • Wed, Mar 19, 2014 - 12:22pm

    Chris Martenson

    Chris Martenson

    Status: Platinum Member

    Joined: Jun 07 2007

    Posts: 5100

    Yes, I am Dumb

    [quote=michael1]I can't belief the foolishness here.
    The problem with pubic entrepreneurism such as that of Robert's and Chris's is that it attracts undue attention.  If one is ultra wealthy, one has security.  But if one is wealthy but not extremely so, one is more vulnerable to security risks.  If one is not wise, one increases one's personal risk considerably.  For examp;e, Chris has mentioned making several large purchases from Tulving over the years.  That tells you he has sizeable quantities of PMs.  He's smart enough to know, if you don't hold it, you don't own it.  Therefore, he does not have it in a safe deposit box or anyplace other than his home.  That tells you where it is.  In time of collapse, power will not come from wealth.  Power will come from power.  Who do you think will have more power?  Someone with $10 million in assets or a team of well-trained, highly capable former military spec-ops who have the means to take that $10 million from someone who has it.  They will go after easy targets.  If you're advertising yourself and you're advertising your wealth but you are limited in your means of protecting it, you present yourself as an easy target.  Take lessons from this situation people and don't make these same foolish mistakes.
    [/quote]
    Michael, you are right, I am dumb.
    I have a vision for how the future is going to unfold and I have given up both the means to make lots more money than being a modern version of Cassandra ever could, and I have given up my privacy in order to provide a (hopefully) useful model for others to at least see if not emulate.
    That's the price of being a leader.  You willingly put yourself in the crosshairs.
    I see this all the time even at the most modest levels of leadership, there are those in the crowd who seemingly delight in putting arrows into leaders, but would never actually assume the reins themselves.  It just comes with the territory.
    Similarly, as you mention, there will be those who will not prepare themselves but who, in a time of crisis, seek to take from those who have prepared.  That's exactly what the big banks and DC engineered for themselves in 2008/09.
    I knowingly put myself in a position where people would critique and criticize and ridicule and even blame me for bringing the PP message to them and to the world.  It comes with the territory and I knew that.  In that sense some would call me dumb.  But I've never shirked from doing what was right as I operate from a very central position of integrity...it's one of my highest values.
    However, you are way off base to think that I have any of my PM wealth stored anywhere near my house.  I do not.  I may be willing at accept the normal slings and arrows of leadership, but I am not that dumb.
    At any rate, none of us live forever and so I am living my life as if it were not a dress rehearsal.  I want to be proud of what I've accomplished and for me that requires going out on a limb.  Or whole set of limbs as I push myself in multiple directions.  It's a lifestyle choice and I accept the consequences.

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  • Wed, Mar 19, 2014 - 3:14pm

    ckessel

    Status: Silver Member

    Joined: Nov 12 2008

    Posts: 176

    Dumb and Dumber

    And thank goodness the world has a few folks like you Chris who are willing to act and provide a level of leadership that seems to be quickly disappearing from our social landscape.Kudos to you, to Adam and all of the participants of the Peak Prosperity community who are willing to think and act on their own self determinism and say it like it is. If a difference in the outcome is possible (and I think it is) it will be because of the kind of activity we find here.
    Observation and initiative are cause points for change. Actions born out of fear produce re-actions which tend to be the same actions done again and again hoping the results will be different. I think Einstein was the one who defined the latter activity as 'insanity'.
    Thanks again Chris for helping to create sanity here at Peak Prosperity!!
    Coop

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  • Wed, Mar 19, 2014 - 6:40pm

    jdye51

    jdye51

    Status: Bronze Member

    Joined: Feb 17 2011

    Posts: 151

    Treemagnet

    Are you bad? As much as any of us who take part in industrial society. As Ferralhen points out, we all bear the consequences of the toxins poured into the environment. Short term self-interest has trumped concern for the long-term viability of our home and we all pay the price one way or another.As you know, I don't see much of a future - if one at all, for all life not just humans. It was one thing for past failing civilizations as people could at least pack up and move elsewhere if the climate changed or the local resources were depleted. But it's global now. And despite Arthur's urgings that we leave this "gravity well", we are stuck with this one planet. So I don't see how we will survive this crisis and make a transition to some new kind of human organization, because the environmental conditions which we we require for survival will no longer be there. That's where we're headed. In your post, you say we're on the Titanic and that gruesome things are ahead. I would agree. We've hit the iceberg and are going down with no life boats and life jackets. But while part of the ship is still above water, there are those who hold on and deny the ship is sinking - until they can't anymore. Again, as Ferralhen points out, some of us are just sinking sooner than others is all.
    Whatever the future holds, may we all meet it with courage and resourcefulness while we can. And acceptance when we can't.
    Joyce
     
     
     

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  • Wed, Mar 19, 2014 - 6:56pm

    agitating prop

    agitating prop

    Status: Silver Member

    Joined: May 28 2009

    Posts: 347

    My Rich Dad--Poor Dad

    [quote=darbikrash]Always great to see your posts AP. I had to chuckle on the Jeremy Rifkin reference- this is exactly what I thought of when I read the transcripts from the podcast. I read this thread on Sunday morning, and within an hour read Rifkin's editorial in the Times, and was struck by the sense that one person was completely off the rails with obsolete thinking, and the other was dangerously close to making sense. I'll post the link here and let readers make up their own minds.
    Link
    As for the entrepreneur hitting it big with the next new idea? Mr. Kiyosaki might be better advised to suggest lottery tickets to his conference attendees, the odds are better and the exposure much lower. 
    [/quote]
     
    Hi Darbikrash,
    Nice to see your posts! I agree with you that the prospects for becoming a "successful entrepreneur'  within the current paradigm, are no longer possible. It's not even a matter of thinking outside of the box. It's about being able to think 'within the sphere'.
    We should imagine ourselves as being constrained within that sphere where we ricochet back and forth and intersect others, with our skill sets, at varying velocities, depending on our abilities. Imagine a philosophy of 'commerce' with that kind of closure built right in. No blue sky, no bullsh**.
    As far as entrepreneurial spirit goes, so much of that depended when and where you were born, in the first place.
    I had a poor dad who was paranoid about getting into debt and loathe to start his own business. It worked out okay for him, as it did for many of his generation. As 'poor' as he was, he was able to afford four kids and a stay-at-home wife on a fairly crummy salary.
     
      My father would have preferred to take a risk and become a photographer, or maybe a journalist or stand up comedienne. He was a funny guy. But he wouldn't risk US to do it. For all of his glaring faults he had a deep sense of responsibility--and a secure job. He was definitely a bit of a drag to be around, but fair's fair.
     
    Now I had a rich uncle, too.  He was a BIG risk taker . He lived in a big beautiful house with his kids, just down the street from us. Loved him. Everybody did-- including his three kids, one just a few months old. I used to wish my poor dad was more like him; happier, not burdened with a monotonous life. I envied my cousins.
    My father was funny (at times) but my rich uncle was engaging and FUN. His daughter, my cousin, Bev, was my age and she worshipped the ground that man walked on. They were a team.
    One day his family woke up and my rich uncle, was gone. Vanished. He became bored with his life and everyone in it, and unlike my poor dad, set off seeking freedom and excitement!!
      And guess what that poor rich man did to finance his risky adventure? He sold the house out from under my aunt without her even knowing  it--because giving her a heads-up would have been, you know.....awkward. And he didn't do awkward. 
      This was decades ago when a Canadian wife wasn't automatically on title. A house was considered the property and responsibility of the husband and her signature wasn't required to sell it.
    So how about my rich uncle, huh? Did he have cajones, or what??
    Oh and btw, moral of the story...my rich uncle actualized himself right into prison a few years later for white collar crime. Oh, the poor rich man!
     
     
     
     

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  • Wed, Mar 19, 2014 - 7:44pm

    #57

    Christopher H

    Status: Bronze Member

    Joined: May 29 2009

    Posts: 120

    What is the real goal, here?

    I read "Rich Dad, Poor Dad" several years back.  To be honest, it all came across like a pyramid marketing scam where the "secrets" would be revealed if you only purchased products A, B and C.  I never understood what all the hype was about.  Then, I saw Robert and Kim on a PBS special a couple of years after that, and it was the same schtick.  They talked at length about how important their message was, how it would transform your life, but they didn't really say anything.  It was all a marketing ploy.

    But all that's even beside the point.  The way that Robert Kiyosaki came across in his own words in the book was someone to whom financial wealth and status were the most important things to strive toward.  In short, it strikes me in retrospect as almost completely opposite from the mission at Peak Prosperity.  So, I was rather perplexed to see Robert Kiyosaki as the most recent interviewee on the podcast.  And I'll readily admit that I didn't listen to the podcast, because to be quite honest I wasn't really interested in hearing anything that Mr. Kiyosaki had to say.  I felt like I already had wasted enough of my finite time on this earth on his "message", time that I couldn't get back.

    After reading through all of the posts on this thread, I keep going back to a quote from Wendell Berry in his televised interview with Bill Moyers last year.

    The question we should be asking isn't, "Will it be successful?"  The question we should be asking is, "What does this earth require of us?"

    I think there's a stark difference between what Mr. Kiyosaki promotes and what Mr. Berry is voicing here.  And one of the aspects of that difference is that Mr. Berry's approach does not preclude being an entrepreneur of sorts, taking control of your own life.  I think that Chris, by developing the Crash Course and PP, is an example of that in a way.  I'm trying to do it in my own life, finding niches to apply my skill/knowledge as a license professional engineer with permaculture principles to capture and use "waste" like stormwater runoff and wastewater instead of looking at it as a problem to be gotten rid of. 

    However, Mr. Kiyosaki's approach (at least how I've interpreted it) is pretty much incompatible with this quote from Wendell Berry.

    Now, I don't blame Chris at all for following up with Robert and Kim Kiyosaki if it helps to spread the message of Peak Prosperity, because it's a message that needs to be spread beyond the choir.  But at the same time, I personally don't look to people whose primary focus seems to be accumulating financial wealth for themselves as opposed to creating real value for the earth and others as people I want to emulate in any way.

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  • Wed, Mar 19, 2014 - 8:39pm

    #58

    davefairtex

    Status: Member

    Joined: Sep 03 2008

    Posts: 2025

    the core of Rich Dad

    So my takeaway from Rich Dad Kiyosaki is the following:

    * invest in assets that generate an income stream, rather than liabilities that consume them

    We think the same thing here.  Fruit trees produce an "income stream", so does a garden, a group of cows, and a flock of chickens.  These are producing assets, good things to spend your "money" (time, energy, etc) on.  They'll produce income for a large number of years, if managed properly.

    But if we plant grass, that's a liability.  It may look nice, but it requires water and energy to mow, weed, and re-seed every now and then, but provides no "income" in return.  Grass is a liability.  Don't plant grass, unless you happen to have "money" to burn and don't mind dropping some on a "consumer product" like grass.

    In fact, long ago it was the aristocrats who had so much wealth, they could show it off by using their land to plant grass - "see I'm so rich, I don't need my land to be productive at all", while the poor farmers wouldn't do that, since they had to use every bit of land to grow food.

    I think sometimes people can get focused on the specifics of what he's talking about and miss out on the deeper meaning.  Perhaps it is just too simple, and he's guilty of making it complicated and turning it into a multimillion dollar business.  But really - the message is, put your capital to work on something that will give you an ROI.  That's how you get "rich" - meaning, you pull in enough "income" to become "independently wealthy" (i.e. able to eat from your garden, your nuts and fruits, and your eggs from the chickens).

    And if the ROI is relatively secure, think about using Other People's Work (perhaps additional workers who didn't have the same foresight you did) to leverage your returns - assuming you can do this without placing your personal assets at risk.

    Just think of what he's saying as a metaphor and it will all make sense.

     

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  • Thu, Mar 20, 2014 - 12:52am

    Nervous Nelly

    Status: Bronze Member

    Joined: Nov 24 2011

    Posts: 179

    I'm so sorry Ferralhen.

    I hope you have family and friends to help you out during this trying period. Keep us posted on your progress.Our thoughts and prayers are with you. 
    NN
    I'm always afraid I or someone close will be the next one in line. It's the world our children are inheriting. Not pretty. 
     

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  • Thu, Mar 20, 2014 - 2:39am

    darbikrash

    Status: Gold Member

    Joined: Aug 25 2009

    Posts: 297

    Real stuff or real jobs

    [quote=Jim H]Will never be worth zero.  
    You pick and choose your examples.... sure, music files and digitized movie files can move around freely.  But a live concert, or a chair, or a summer stock show will never be free because they will never have zero marginal value.   
    .....if I were to re-invent the system myself, it would provide a base share of the earth's bounty to everyone through some kind of redistribution... but it would also leave a free market system to function in order to create the opportunity for those who have the wherewithal to innovate to do so and find increased wealth in doing so.  It would be a hybrid.  What would your ideal system look like?  How does a better system work? 
    [/quote]
    I would not be so sure of that statement. Things become free to consumers when manufacturers figure out ways to extract means of payment irrespective of the commodity. Social media applications are a good example, but by no means the only example.
    Many of these products are garnering the attention of much of Wall Street, these examples deserve more than a dismissive glance. The labor dynamics and cost models are disruptive to so-called conventional financial wisdom, these are not cherry picked examples selected to prove a point.
    When Instagram is sold for $1 Bn and has but 12 employees, that ought to be a clue that this is far more complicated than can be interpreted by the usual grousing at the Federal Reserve narrative. The second clue might be the statistics in Rifkin’s article (quoted in post # 38) that claims for-profit firms grew in number by only ½%-1% over the ten year period from 2001 to 2011. This statistic is pretty shocking, and if true (I’d like very much to see some sources for this claim) is yet more compelling evidence that capitalism is broken, and broken badly.
    Not everything is a referendum of free market forces vs. a centralized planned economy. I know of no one taking that side of the trade- but it sure makes a nice speech whenever someone dares to challenge the crumbling edifice of late stage capitalism.
    Despite the great ideas of the armchair monetary revisionists, the business world and labor markets have their own motion. Substantial growth in non-profits is evident, companies formed with ESOP (employee shared) stock distributions are becoming more common, industrial co-ops are gaining popularity, and manifold alternate class structures are appearing at large scale, creating organizations that share surplus with employees.
    You call for alternatives and hybrid approaches, Rifkin lists some, there are many others in addition to the above list. The mistake is attempting to reduce the definition of these arrangements to the syntax of “free market vs. centrally planned economy” this is absolutely false, no one cares about the means of exchange, there is no debate here, the workers are interested in the means of production - and an equitable distribution of the surplus.
     
    Other forms of fulfillment or jobs if you will that do not include exploitation (or at least do not intrinsically require it) include sole proprietorships, other forms of self employment, family run farms and small businesses, etc. None of these are capitalist class structures, as opposed to Riyosaki’s suggested modality of rent seeking and debt based “entrepreneurship” implying employees that do not share in the surplus, with all the attendant valorization that goes with it.

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  • Thu, Mar 20, 2014 - 2:51am

    #61

    robbwolf

    Status: Member

    Joined: Sep 01 2012

    Posts: 0

    Lots of thoughts on this

    Lots of thoughts on this one. 

    I've been a  PP lurker for a long time, only recently have I started contributing. It's neigh impossible for me to put a value on what I've learned from Chris and other folks here. When I run things through the type of filters I've developed from this community it's made sense to invest in a homestead, land, water and  business activities that seem to be anti-fragile with regards to many of the concerns folks share here. 20 years from now I may feel this was a great idea.  Or a dose of chicken little. I actually hope it's the former in some ways as the implications of being "right" about much of this is a bit unsettling.  At the minimum planting a potato tower with my 22 month old daughter, and thinking about how similar projects will be my route to teaching chemistry, physics and biology is pretty damn exciting. It's also developing some resiliency muscle for me in learning how to grow food in the high desert area of Reno. I'd not be doing any of this sans the PP community and what Chris and others have done, so a big hat-tip and "thank you." for that. 

    So, I've been involved with this paleo diet schtick for almost 15 years now. It's made some incredible impact on a lot of folks, particularly people with autoimmune or systemic inflammatory conditions. That's been very gratifying but I've "always" known that sustainability needed to be woven into this story...from food production to our medical system. We did a 2 year pilot study here in Reno implementing a paleo diet, sleep interventions, and smart exercise on a group of Police and Fire personnel we had identified as being at high risk for type 2 diabetes and audiovisual disease.  The changes that occurred in this population is estimated to have saved the city of Reno $22million. We are working to scale this program and take it both national and international. The goal is to have transparent pricing from our testing lab partners and the whole program is hoped to be cash&cary or HSA compatible. The goal is to circumvent the moral hazard of the 3rd party payer system. I'm hoping this is applying Moore's Law to medicine and the ACA may end up making us look like a great alternative.  That risk assessment is the scaffolding for a decentralized medical system AND food distribution/production system. We are working with the Savory Institute to bring their network of sustainable food producers in contact with the folks involved in this nascent medical system. It might flop, but I'm really hoping it is world changing. 

    I'm not mentioning all this as a "look at me! look at me" piece, but rather to address some of the earlier angst as to "are we doing enough?" I think it will make sense at some point. 

    I do a fair amount of fund raising for the Farm To Consumer Legal Defense fund. These folks do amazing work and they are tight with both Polyface Farms and the Savory Institute. I helped to push around (via social media) the recent FTCLDF membership drive. We had a great response from that but we had a few folks in Canada and the UK lamenting that they do not have a FTCLDF in their respective countries. I administered a fair amount of finger waging and guilting until both people agreed that if they wanted an organization like this, they should make it happen themselves. 

    THAT is entrepreneurship.

    I've noticed that the folks who complain that "not enough being done" are NOT the regional head of a Savory institute Holistic Management hub, on the board of directors of their co-op etc.

    Extinction is the rule of evolution, not the exception. We may very well go the way of the dinosaurs. That it'd be a consequence of our own industry might be a bit ironic vs a meteor strike, but the net effect will be the same. Instead of focusing on that eventuality however I'm trying to affect as much change, with the comparative advantage I have. I may be peeing in the wind, but it's my pee and the sunset ain't bad.  

     

     

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  • Thu, Mar 20, 2014 - 2:29pm

    #62
    liz cowen

    liz cowen

    Status: Bronze Member

    Joined: Oct 14 2009

    Posts: 132

    i wanted to express my thanks

    i wanted to express my thanks to the many of you who have expressed your caring heart felt thoughts and prayers  and  good wishes  to me in the last few days. i'm hanging in there and will check in from time to time as my strength allows me.  i'm a tough old bird.and will give it hell !

     

    ferralhen

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  • Thu, Mar 20, 2014 - 2:57pm

    liz cowen

    liz cowen

    Status: Bronze Member

    Joined: Oct 14 2009

    Posts: 132

    i agree with the concept to

    i agree with the concept to invest in something that returns something back.... but scale must also be considered. unless you are one of the tyson brothers in northwest arkansas it takes 1-2000 acres of farmland to make a 6 figure income.  agriculture is not a good choice to become wealthy, unless you can do it on a very large scale. an agriculture has a lot of natural risks involve because it is dependent on weather.having a homestead is a life of hard work and serfdom not a road map to becoming weathy. it can be a satisfying lifestyle and produce many other kinds of wealth besides financial ones.
    i read roberts book when it first came out. my take away was it appeals to the middle class mentality to work hard and some day be wealthy...to aspire to be one of the rich. it's a pipe dream for most of us. no one ever writes rich dad poor dad when they are poor and starting out.  only one of the very few who got lucky can write it. there are many reasons only a few make it to the one percent.
    the concepts are not the only thing required to be successful at anything. it takes many other factors.
    i do think it's always a good idea to know one's strengths and weakness'. and the payback for focusing on improving one's weaknesses can be equally important in succeeding in life.
    becoming wealthy has never been one of my goals in life.  i felt i would have had to lose my soul to do it.... i am satisfied with my life choices so far and that is a wealth that is priceless.
     
    ferralhen

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  • Thu, Mar 20, 2014 - 3:02pm

    liz cowen

    liz cowen

    Status: Bronze Member

    Joined: Oct 14 2009

    Posts: 132

    somehow words got deleted and

    somehow words got deleted and it should read:unless you are one of the tyson brothers, in northwest arkansas, you are not going to become wealthy from chickens.
     
    fh

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  • Thu, Mar 20, 2014 - 10:16pm

    SingleSpeak

    Status: Bronze Member

    Joined: Nov 30 2008

    Posts: 175

    Agreed davefairtex

    I have read many of the Rich Dad books and the general premise that Robert and his team expouse is,  "get educated about financial matters, if you want to build your wealth." Sure he suggests that he has some of the best methods of getting that education and hopes to sell you those, but he doesn't say you must do it his way or you will always be poor. 
    The general message that Chris preaches is, "trust yourself because there are a lot of pieces to this exponential-growth puzzle that don't fit inside the laws of a finite world, and you probably won't be hearing about those pieces in the mainstream."

    I have learned a lot from listening to each of these men and then "trusting myself" to use from that what fits my life circumstances. Neither of these guys say they know it all, and both are careful to say more or less, "This is what I'm doing and here are the results. If it is something that makes sense to you, you should try it. Otherwise do what you think is best."

    To not listen at all is an option and may work for some, but so far, even with the podcasts that are about something I may think I'm not in agreement with or don't particularly find appealing I've found one or two gems that I can mine.

    I guess it's the all-or-nothing mentality that doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

    SS

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  • Sat, Mar 22, 2014 - 12:01pm

    #66

    LesPhelps

    Status: Silver Member

    Joined: Apr 30 2009

    Posts: 606

    Who does Robert's path work for?

    Robert has a philosophy identical to every CEO I have worked under for the last 20 years.  His goal is to maximize his wealth and that of his tribe at the cost of anyone and everyone else.  He focuses on the benefit and pays no mind to the cost.  

    This is exactly the mindset that is exacerbating our current dilemma.  It is the mindset that results in the disparity in wealth distribution.

    In order to project the proper image, or feel better about his lifestyle, he may make large charitable contributions and/or sponsor charities and encourage others to contribute, but the long and short of it is, he is a top of the pyramid taker with a capital T.  There would be nothing wrong with that were it not for limits.

    The reality is, it works well for Robert and his tribe, but not for anyone not in his tribe, or the planet.

    We need a better model to base our lives on.

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  • Sat, Mar 22, 2014 - 10:29pm

    soulinrevolt

    soulinrevolt

    Status: Member

    Joined: May 30 2011

    Posts: 11

    Mr. Kiyosaki

    ChrisI think most of your reply to the thread was very truthful and thoughtful.  We must get on in the world, and so we must purchase the things we need with money.  I pay keen attention to what is broadcast on this site about how to maneuver my own personal finances through these changing times.  I don't personally have a lot of knowledge about managing finances, and listening to the podcasts and reading the in depth pieces concerning the macro-economic picture here on PP has been a baptism of fire.  I am grateful to PP for what I have been able to absorb.  Like everyone else I don't want to lose what I have, or if I must lose, I will try to make sure it is the least possible.  Also I appreciate the wealth of information for building resilience--learning to grow food, animal husbandry, etc....
    However, I must say I share some of Joyce's feelings in regards to Mr. Kiyosaki.  Something about this guy doesn't quite jive with what maybe a lot of people have found their way to this site for.  I had some familiarity with him before listening to the podcast.  He strikes me as a guy that not only understands the importance of money, but that is also "In Love" with money.  He seems to really enjoy the power money gives him too.  The anecdote you gave about him giving a public grilling of one of his employees reinforces that feeling.  But hey, that's purely conjecture on my part, so let me give two concrete examples straight from his mouth of why I think many people at this site were put off by him.
    First, he mentioned twice, I think, about owning golf courses out in the Phoenix area.  Does irrigating golf courses in the Sonoran Desert make his community more resilient?  It makes him wealthier, no doubt, but is it becoming the change we want to see?  Let me be fair, however, and say that the ways in which I make money aren't all making the world a better place.  I inherited a piece of land that is leased out to a fast food franchise, which is certainly not making my community any healthier.  And the aesthetic of the whole commercial configuration of the area is enough to give James Kunstler a brain hemorrhage.  But it is not something I started, and I am under the obligations of an extended contract.
    Secondly, when someone starts quoting Ayn Rand I run the other way.  I have read her book, Atlas Shrugged, so I am familiar with her philosophy.  She was not a dumb person and she is not a bad writer, but she is not a major philosopher.  People who are seduced by Ayn Rand I fear have not read very broadly or deeply in life.  It is true that I myself have not read as broadly and deeply as I should, perhaps, but I feel I have read enough to know a second rate philosopher when I come across one.  And her prescription for conducting life I find frightening.  What she came from was a terrible system, but her equally extreme reaction to it is no recipe for life, or building a resilient community of mutual cooperation either I would argue. 
    And that leads me to a final point that I find disturbing about people like Mr. Kiyosaki.  They have a certain, if not downright arrogance, an insouciant cocksureness that can be off putting.  They feel they know everything because they've made a lot of money, when really all they know, perhaps, is how to make a lot of money. 
    Like anybody I can be completely wrong, but I've read the threads and have been moved to give an opinion, my second ever on PP.  My first was a negative reaction to having Ann Barnhardt as a guest, and I can offer no apologies for an open dislike of her crazy shenanigans.  But let me stress that the vast majority of guests and content on this site I find very enlightening and useful, and I extend a hearty virtual handshake to all who make this site possible!
    Thank you,
    soulinrevolt

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  • Sun, Mar 23, 2014 - 1:09pm

    #68
    Billmce

    Billmce

    Status: Member

    Joined: Nov 10 2011

    Posts: 1

    Really?

    While I am a fan of buying assets and being a master of the pieces it does not offer absolute protection from a correction or the big crash. Likely better than the head in the sand beavering away for the pay cheque approach. The big crash comes and the visitors to your hotel stop showing up and your asset can very quickly turn into a cash sucking liability of immense proportions. In the big crash scenario there are very few places to hide.

    On the printing money thing: I am sure this is like talking to the converted but here goes. An economy is an energy conversion machine. It takes energy (the type we call useful work and the part we call food) and converts it to two things: tools and consumption. The tools (investments) either result in productivity improvements or end up as consumption when they don't work out. The productivity improvements are what makes prosperity happen or not. Thus, money, and I refer here not to the type fiat or otherwise but the function, is a proxy for an allocation of energy or an endorsement for a previous expenditure of energy.  This is nothing new it is just obvious. Given that, then the control of the money supply should be slaved to the energy conversion capacity of the economy. You can take all the countries GDPs and compare them to their energy consumptions and they just completely line up. So slaving money to gold or silver or other precious metals is not rationale, it seems to get a lot of traction from history though. The total amount of gold extracted from the earth to date is about the size of an olympic swimming pool. Just cause it's rare and people like it shininess doesn't seem a sound rationale to base currency on it does it? 

    While this is not a widely debated topic in economic circles it is well known and acted upon. The whole energy security concern is all about this which is the powers that be spend considerable resources in assuring its access. The big issue is what kind of society emerges with a drastically reduced energy return ratio? The amount of surplus joy coming out of the current energy extraction industries is dropping like a stone so it's tolerance and sensitivity to/from mistakes and misallocations are dropping and increasing  respectively. This dropping energy return ratio is going to result in reduced human impact on the environment as we will have less to play with. It likely also implies there will be less of us in the future. How that plays out is a long way from certain but the rules of civil society don't mean a lot when you are starving or think you will starve.

    The management class has a big problem on their hands (the level of realization in the management class varies from country to country but most have their heads firmly planted in the sand in my view at any rate) and their level of  greediness and indifference will play a large role in how a given society handles it.

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  • Sun, Mar 23, 2014 - 7:54pm

    michael1

    michael1

    Status: Member

    Joined: Mar 19 2014

    Posts: 4

    Ferralhen - have you tried this?

    [quote=ferralhen]jdye51 has written often and consistently on the theme of what does all this matter if you aren't here to do it? and why are we talkng out of one side of our mouths on the blog while living the polluting lifestyle that is killing us.and why aren't we addressing the real problems by real change in our lives, not just token one.
     
    i've been an entrepreneur ,own a homestead, been part of the problem , been part of the solution.
     
    i've recently be diagnosed with stage 3 cancer. now i'm part of the consequence.
     
    ferralhen
    [/quote]
    Avemar or Ave or AWGE

    Avemar: Fermented Wheat Germ Kills All Types of Cancer Cells FAST


    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22740002
    http://www.amazon.com/s/?ie=UTF8&keywords=avemar&tag=googhydr-20&index=aps&hvadid=4230146319&hvpos=1t1&hvexid=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=15621588084513418730&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=b&hvdev=c&ref=pd_sl_7ea4u72qs4_b
     
     

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  • Sun, Mar 23, 2014 - 11:48pm

    FTX

    Status: Member

    Joined: Aug 04 2013

    Posts: 1

    I hear you...

    I definitely have to agree with you, and the closer we are getting to this collapse, the more it seems that people refuse to open their eyes and accept it, let alone prepare for it.As my father used to say, "There is going to be a crying and gnashing of teeth".

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  • Sat, Mar 29, 2014 - 5:32pm

    #71

    Gratidude

    Status: Member

    Joined: May 24 2012

    Posts: 15

    Defending Kiyosaki

    My intention is to set aside emotion and simply state the facts of how Kiyosaki's teachings steered me toward being a more self-reliant and responsible person who now at 46 years old has complete autonomy with how I spend my time and energy. My personal experience with the Rich Dad books and program is not unusual and I've met many others who have similar stories. This is all true. 

    About twenty years ago I was unemployed, raising an illegitimate baby, receiving welfare, and living in one of the poorest areas of the country (Stockton, CA off 8-mile Rd). I was desperate. I heard Robert on the radio pushing his Rich Dad book and I was willing to try anything so I found a free copy.  I learned about the financial rules that we all live under in this country. I learned how to arrange my affairs within these rules to keep more of what I earned. I learned the language of finance and how to ask questions and how to read financial documents. After reading the book, I found a group of people who played a weekly game of Robert's Cashflow game. I was fascinated by all the people I met who made money unconventionally, yet legally. The scales fell from my eyes and I realized that I could not blame my lack of income on a lack of a good job. A whole new world of options opened up to me. The point of Rich Dad is that rich kids learn the unlimited ways of making money while the rest of us think a job is necessary.

    To keep this post succinct, I'll summarize the last twenty years and say that Robert Kiyosaki's teachings put me on a path of learning that includes starting two failed businesses, owning over a dozen rental homes, becoming an accredited investor, and with one partner, building a healthy multi-million dollar business that regularly wins industry awards. 

    Perhaps the most important thing I discovered is that entrenched institutions (e.g. government, Wall st.) are not going to tell me what's in my best interest and I must understand, on my own, the rules I am governed by and the options I have. If nothing else, Kiyosaki's programs are excellent for teaching us how the 1% got that way and how the financial rules we all must follow in the U.S. are heavily skewed toward making the rich, richer. 

    Just as Kiyosaki did twenty years ago, Martenson has recently brought me from ignorant to informed. I'm combining these programs with Adam's Book "Finding your Authentic Career" to create my ideal venture/adventure for the next 20 years. You can read about my experience with Adam's book here: 

    https://www.peakprosperity.com/discussion/82193/following-your-technique-adam  

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  • Sat, Mar 29, 2014 - 6:57pm

    Jim H

    Status: Bronze Member

    Joined: Jun 08 2009

    Posts: 1105

    Thank you Gratidude..

    I am still in the early stages of imagining my own life un-tethered from the soul-crushing, EPS-driven, humanity-free creatures that large American corporations have become...  I found your story inspiring.    

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  • Wed, Apr 02, 2014 - 10:29pm

    #73
    Cornelius999

    Cornelius999

    Status: Bronze Member

    Joined: Oct 17 2008

    Posts: 365

    Wildlife Tracker, something I

    Wildlife Tracker, something I started learning at 39 was Chi Kung. Tai Chi is a version of it with self -defence applications and a little more difficult. After enough practice, you feel the chi energy flowing through your body like a fluid. It builds up over the years and penetrates all of the body. It improves your physical health and with each new deepening of the energy there's a sense of progress and accomplishment. You could also teach it- valuable if medical help is'nt available. There are dvds, books. Or night courses.

    Hang in there ferralhen, we're thinking of you!  Oh! and if you're not tired of suggestions, check out " The China Study" book, as also should everybody worried about getting cancer etc.

    Chris, we admire and value you as a moderate leader who's taken the responsibility of a necessary public stance on the big issues of the age and the planet, when nearly everybody else in public life avoided them..I'm sure most of us here are more than grateful.

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