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    One Step Removed

    Avoid the trap the system is setting to imprison you
    by Chris Martenson

    Friday, August 21, 2020, 7:57 PM

Millions of people are about to enter a financial purgatory, becoming little more than modern-day slaves.

While they’ll be reported by the media as those “evicted” or “foreclosed on”, if we define a slave as someone forced to work for another by existing legal circumstances or approved cultural norms, then that’s exactly what these people should actually be called: slaves.

Too harsh?

Allow me to make my case.

Being ‘One Step Removed’ Is All Evil Needs

Slavery can exist when there’s a system that allows it.  It’s a combination of morals (or, rather, lack thereof) and laws that allow one human to control the daily actions of another.  Neither a slave’s time nor personal freedom belong to them.

I learned a long time ago that most humans, at best, have what we might call ‘shallow’ morals. There are chemical engineers who would never dump a toxin directly into a child’s cereal bowl, because that would be immoral; but they’ll casually and routinely inject toxins into groundwater tables (which may eventually end up in the local milk supply) because they have an EPA permit to do so.

If questioned, these same engineers know that there’s a chance, maybe even a very good chance, that the injected chemicals could end up somewhere unintended.  But because their actions today are one step removed from the consequences of tomorrow, that’s enough to get them off of a moral hook.

In other words, their morals don’t extend past that first action — they stop right there.  They are therefore ‘shallow’ morals.

‘Deeper’ morals would include a sense of responsibility for the entire lifespan of the chemicals in question.

Similarly, mortgage companies are staffed to the gills with people who could never themselves forcibly eject an elderly person and all of their possessions onto the curb outside the home they’d lived in for 50 years.  It would be morally upsetting.

But they routinely submit the paperwork that causes these things to happen nonetheless.

Luckily for the mortgage company workers it’s the sheriffs deputies who actually handle the evictions.  Luckily for the sheriffs involved, somebody else’s decision was responsible for the eviction.  Both the sheriffs and the mortgage company employees are similarly insulated from any moral qualms because neither was directly responsible for Granny or Grampa’s plight. They’re just “following orders”.

One step removed.  That’s all it takes.

The point here is that as long as people have just one degree of separation from their actions, that’s sufficient to dodge any moral qualms that may arise.  What we cannot stomach to do ourselves can be more easily overlooked if someone else is performing the deed.

The Immoral Fed

The largest and most obvious one step removed ‘dodge’ in play right now is the US Federal Reserve’s evasion of moral responsibility for making the wealth gap explode wider, destroying the financial futures of tens of millions of American households.

After printing up a bubble that ruined many in the 1990’s, eventually bursting in the year 2000, the Fed set about blowing an even larger bubble. That burst in 2008. And now they are back at it again.

Every step of the way, the Fed policies resulted in the rich getting richer, the middle classes and the poor being financially eviscerated, and future generations getting hosed.

How do the Fed’s staffers sleep at night?

By delusional thinking like this:

(Source)

The necessary one degree of separation for Jay “pants on fire” Powell to say such obviously flawed things is provided by “the markets”, which is where the trillions of dollars freshly printed by the FEd quickly end up.

That goosed markets then benefit the already-rich is simple to deduce. Those who own lots of stocks and bonds as well as those who operate the most intimate details of the financial machinery are rewarded instantly by higher prices.  They become instantly richer.  Which means they can afford to buy more ‘real’ things like land, buildings, businesses, factories, gold, fine art — you name it.

Well-connected entities like BlackRock are actually in bed with the Fed, getting richly rewarded merely for helping it spend its vast gobs of newly-created currency :

BlackRock Is Bailing Out Its ETFs with Fed Money and Taxpayers Eating Losses; It’s Also the Sole Manager for $335 Billion of Federal Employees’ Retirement Funds

June 4, 2020

Today [June 4, 2020], BlackRock has been selected in more no-bid contracts to be the sole buyer of corporate bonds and corporate bond ETFs for the Fed’s unprecedented $750 billion corporate bond buying program which will include both investment grade and junk-rated bonds. (The Fed has said it may add more investment managers to the program eventually.)

BlackRock is being allowed by the Fed to buy its own corporate bond ETFs as part of the Fed program to prop up the corporate bond market. According to a report in Institutional Investor on Monday, BlackRock, on behalf of the Fed, “bought $1.58 billion in investment-grade and high-yield ETFs from May 12 to May 19, with BlackRock’s iShares funds representing 48 percent of the $1.307 billion market value at the end of that period, ETFGI said in a May 30 report.”

No bid contracts and buying up your own products, what could possibly be wrong with that? To make matters even more egregious, the stimulus bill known as the CARES Act set aside $454 billion of taxpayers’ money to eat the losses in the bail out programs set up by the Fed. A total of $75 billion has been allocated to eat losses in the corporate bond-buying programs being managed by BlackRock. Since BlackRock is allowed to buy up its own ETFs, this means that taxpayers will be eating losses that might otherwise accrue to billionaire Larry Fink’s company and investors.

(Source)

On the one hand, BlackRock is busy buying all sorts of things to stuff on the Fed’s balance sheet.

On the other hand, BlackRock has access to unlimited capital at the most favorable terms/prices in the world.

On a third hand, BlackRock is busy buying up distressed properties from recently foreclosed Americans who couldn’t manage to stretch a $1,200 stimulus check across 8 months of being out of work.

Add it all up and these recently dispossessed Americans will find themselves no longer owning a home. Instead, they’ll rent one from the no-bid contract winners like BlackRock, who were literally hand-picked by the Fed.

When there’s no money to be found to help working-class families, you can be certain there are still unlimited billions available to keep outfits like BlackRock supremely well incentivized to… uh, keep doing what they already were doing anyways: Getting obscenely rich.

Now, instead of working for themselves to pay off their own homes, these newly dispossessed Americans will still have to live somewhere. Many of them will end up renting from Wall Street entities like BlackRock.

How do I know this?  Because that playbook page already exists.  It’s an observed reality.  It’s been done before and it will happen again.

We saw this in the aftermath of the housing crash/Great Financial Crisis:

When Wall Street Is Your Landlord

Feb 2019

[T[he government incentivized Wall Street to step in. In early 2012, it launched a pilot program that allowed private investors to easily purchase foreclosed homes by the hundreds from the government agency Fannie Mae. These new owners would then rent out the homes, creating more housing in areas heavily hit by foreclosures.

Between 2011 and 2017, some of the world’s largest private-equity groups and hedge funds, as well as other large investors, spent a combined $36 billion on more than 200,000 homes in ailing markets across the country. In one Atlanta zip code, they bought almost 90 percent of the 7,500 homes sold between January 2011 and June 2012; today, institutional investors own at least one in five single-family rentals in some parts of the metro area.

I talked with tenants from 24 households who lived or still live in homes owned by single-family rental companies. I also reviewed 21 lawsuits against three such companies in Gwinnett County, a suburb of Atlanta devastated by the housing crash. The tenants claim that, far from bringing efficiency and ease to the rental market, their corporate landlords are focusing on short-term profits in order to please shareholders, at the expense of tenant happiness and even safety. Many of the families I spoke with feel stuck in homes they don’t own, while pleading with faraway companies to complete much-needed repairs—and wondering how they once again ended up on the losing end of a Wall Street real estate gamble. 

(Source)

In today’s reality, the Federal Reserve is deciding, unilaterally and without any effective oversight or requiring a single vote from a single American, who should be the winners and who should be the losers.

Should we be surprised that the big institutions are the winners and ‘we the people’ the losers?

To be fair, this isn’t BlackRock’s fault, right?  It’s simply how the system is currently set up.  It’s just the prevailing legal and moral framework, right?

What do they say on Wall Street to point out the one step removed angle: “Don’t hate the player, hate the game”?  Well, maybe that works in pro basketball. But in finance, where the players have a strong say in writing the rules, I don’t think that saying provides much air cover.

Here in August 2020 after the coronavirus (combined with a desperately poor series of managerial decisions by politicians and career health ‘authorities’) laid waste to the economy, it’s perfectly clear that much actually was learned from the 2008 crisis.

The wealthy learned that you can pretty much get away with anything you want. And so they’re at it again.

Corporations learned to hoover up the free money as fast as possible.

Speculators learned that the Fed would always cover their losses and to ‘buy the dip.’

Nowhere along the way did anybody seem to learn the importance of community, watching out for your fellow citizens, having integrity, or caring about the future.  Savers and the prudent alike have been literally punished for being responsible.

Finding The Way Out

Once you see through the ‘one step removed’ lens, you’ll begin to see it everywhere.

Too many people do things that aren’t even remotely justifiable (let alone moral) once the totality of the actions are taken into account.

A corollary to this is that the measure of a person can be observed in their actions when nobody is looking.

Far more impressive than the thousands YouTube clips showing a supposed samaritan help an unfortunate soul (while a camera just happens to be recording from a perfect angle followed by a quick upload to 8 different social media channels) is the person who helps another when no one else is there to watch.

“The system” is providing the necessary legal and moral cover for BlackRock and other similarly fabulously wealthy parties to sweep in and take advantage of current circumstances to make a few billion extra bucks.

When the dust settles after the pandemic subsides, we’ll find that another large fraction of the assets of our nation – it’s houses, soil and productive enterprises – will have been transferred (again!) to the tiny minority already at the top of the wealth pyramid.

The process used will continue to be simply this: the Fed prints new currency out of thin air, hands it to Wall Street, which in turn buys up the productive assets of the country. If challenged, each party has its own ‘one step removed’ cover story ready to go.

Once upon a time, our cultural and legal principles sadly allowed the productive output of people called slaves to belong to people we called slave owners.

Today ,there’s a codified system of financial rules and a supporting legal framework that assigns the productive output of the poor and middle classes to corporate owners.

The former process was direct.  The latter process has the same outcome; it’s just simply one step removed.

So how do we free ourselves from the shackles the system is trying so hard to place us in?

In Part 2: The Way Out, I share the strategies I’m implementing in my personal life/homestead/community to build wealth that can’t be easily stolen by the printing press or over-reaching authorities.

The truth is we live in an exceptionally challenging time: for our wealth, our civil liberties, and our ability to pursue happiness.

There are no guarantees except this: to do nothing is to walk willingly into the trap being set for you.

Click here to read Part 2 of this report (free executive summary, enrollment required for full access).

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64 Comments

  • Fri, Aug 21, 2020 - 9:40pm

    #1
    PVF Cosgrove

    PVF Cosgrove

    Status: Member

    Joined: Aug 22 2020

    Posts: 7

    0

    I have much respect for what Chris writes and I value his sharp observations.

    However, I think that he is going to have to toughen up in order to survive the hell that's coming to the world. I wouldn't want him to descend into a depression on account of his evident empathy with those who suffer. What would be the point?

    My view is that human beings are lucky if they have survived a lifetime without severe suffering, since this has been their lot from time immemorial.

    Besides, there is something of the animal in human behaviour with its excessive fornication and refusal these days to accept divine design for the nature we see all around us.

    Slavery is a well-accepted condition for many human beings from the time of Abraham onwards. It's not so much the status of being a slave as the condition of being a slave that should concern us. Chris is clearly concerned about the condition of slavery, but I reckon that the inevitability of the status of slavery needs to be accepted otherwise, for example, revolution follows with deadly consequences.

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  • Sat, Aug 22, 2020 - 12:35am

    Locksmithuk

    Status: Bronze Member

    Joined: Dec 19 2011

    Posts: 125

    2

    One step removed & toughening up

    "Toughen up"?

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  • Sat, Aug 22, 2020 - 2:37am

    VTGothic

    VTGothic

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    Joined: Jan 05 2020

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    25

    We need broken hearts, not hardened.

    I would rather Chris suffer with compassion than harden his heart against awareness of those who are suffering and are going to be deeply hurt by what is emerging. I would hope we all would, too - especially if we want to appeal to a Divine presence in life's design. There is no god I know of who advises toughening up as a way to cope with the suffering of others.

    Consider Christ. He sorrowed, He was not depressed. He was moved by deep feeling for the sorry state of our human condition, and the perverse persistence with which we pursue, collectively, our worse nature. We each do well when we are moved by the same impulse.

    Yes, we are limited. True, we will not be able to heal every hurt or save every life. Acknowledging that, sorrowing for it, for our own lack of resources and ability, and for the perverse nature resident in all of us and manifest in some who have been gifted with power they don't know how to use well, does not equate to depression. It equates to compassion. And we who have had the opportunity or (in my case) plain dumb luck to end up with some land to steward and enough ongoing resources to equip it are called by compassion and this late hour to do so responsibly, even while understanding we are not going to be able to save the world.

    Harnessed compassion yields creative energy. Certainly no one of us can help everyone; our entire PP community will not stop all the hurt or meet the coming need. But we can each prepare to help our family, our neighbors, and the occasional stranger on the road, and that matters. The better we prepare within the means and resources we have, the more we can help when we are called to stand on that line and uphold common humanity and decency. But there is no time left to waste.

    I realize as I read today's news that as much as I have felt the compulsion to prepare for it, I have secretly hoped, even prayed, that these days would never come and I would look foolish in hindsight. It is the heartache I feel as I watch the unfolding of the future that many of us here have been anticipating that continues to propel me, now more urgently.

    Best of all, I know this community is made up of many like-minded people. We are motivated by a keen grasp of the suffering now descending, and a matching desire to meet it with compassion and clear-headed action. I find that inspiring, and hope to rise to our collective, dispersed, linked, mutually-reinforcing, and goal-oriented challenge.

    For "what good is it if someone says he has faith, but doesn't have corresponding works? If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, and one of you says to them, 'Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,' but does not give them the things which are needed for the body, what's the good of his faith? Thus, also, faith by itself, if it does not manifest in works, is dead" (James 2:14).

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  • Sat, Aug 22, 2020 - 3:53am

    #4

    sand_puppy

    Status: Platinum Member

    Joined: Apr 13 2011

    Posts: 2559

    24

    In support of broken open heart

    Thank you so much VTGothic for your take on the issue of the broken open heart.

    My own life is full of pain right now and that pain is opening up an old (childhood) habit of mind where I use fury and hardening to protect myself when frightened.

    That strategy has frightened those that I love and damaged relationships.

    I am walking early each morning (I'm a formal dog walker), praying, fasting and seeking Guidance.  Especially, I pray for a softening of the fury that I have used to protect my heart in the past.  This strategy has failed me terribly.

    Robert Blye, the poet-philosopher, talks about Bob Dylans transformation after the death of his son.  After a period of grief and withdrawal, he re-emerged as an artist that communicated deep passion.   This depth of emotion became accessible in his conscious life with this plunge into the depth of his soul, forced by pain.

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  • Sat, Aug 22, 2020 - 5:28am

    #5
    Mpup

    Mpup

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    3

    Reply to Cosgrove and VTGothic

    PVF, slavery takes on many forms.  In one way or another we may all be slaves to something or someone.  At one time in our nation, involuntary servitude (slavery) was was acceptable. Thank God that has changed.  Today our government and to a greater extent, one political party promotes voluntary servitude (slavery).  I give you free food, free healthcare, free or low cost housing, utility assistance, and free phones.  You don't need to work or try to improve your life.  Stay in your place, give me your vote.  Fortunately many are starting to see they don't want to be owned by the government.  If one must be a slave, how much better to be a slave to helping family and others.  My buddy Paul talks about being a slave to a higher calling.

    VT your post is very compelling and expresses well the need for us all to become more involved in building better lives for ourselves, our families, and others.  Gold is good, spiritual health and wealth is mo betta 🙂     Much of Peak Prosperity is about preparing,  it's good that we can help each other to be more fully prepared.

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  • Sat, Aug 22, 2020 - 6:42am

    jturbo68

    Status: Bronze Member

    Joined: Aug 04 2009

    Posts: 150

    7

    Upside Down World

    In my world, its the bankers, rich and corporations that are being given most of the free govt money and using it to consume the small holdings of the poor and middle class at now pennies on the dollar.  To then moralize about the poor needing free food or healthcare is crazy to me.  I guess there is no end to the pull yourself up by your own bootstraps narrative in our country.

    Socialism for the rich and brutal self sufficiency for everyone else.   Seems like its working out great so far ....

     

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  • Sat, Aug 22, 2020 - 7:18am

    #7

    LesPhelps

    Status: Silver Member

    Joined: Apr 30 2009

    Posts: 664

    3

    One Step Removed Actions In Agriculture And Food Industry

    There are chemical engineers who would never dump a toxin directly into a child’s cereal bowl, because that would be immoral; but they’ll casually and routinely inject toxins into groundwater tables (which may eventually end up in the local milk supply) because they have an EPA permit to do so.

    I believe humans are the only species that consumes the milk of another species.  I also believe that we are the only species that consumes milk (dairy) after infancy.

    https://www.upi.com/Health_News/2019/10/21/Increased-prostate-cancer-risk-linked-to-higher-dairy-consumption/1411571670146/

    The dairy industry sustains a lot of jobs.  My entire career was in food manufacturing.  A large portion of the foods we produced were meat and dairy based.  At the time, I was unaware of the link between animal protein and cancer.  I was, to an extent, aware of the adverse effects of consuming dietary cholesterol, but I was consuming it, so it didn’t occur to me to feel guilty for producing it for others to consume.

    I wonder how many of the mortgage company workers Chris mentions are debt fee.

    We all seem to be really good at ignoring uncomfortable facts.

    “People prefer to believe what they prefer to be true.”
    - Sir Francis Bacon

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  • Sat, Aug 22, 2020 - 8:37am

    PVF Cosgrove

    PVF Cosgrove

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    PVF Cosgrove said:

    Consider Christ. He sorrowed, He was not depressed. He was moved by deep feeling for the sorry state of our human condition, and the perverse persistence with which we pursue, collectively, our worse nature.

    Christ sorrowed over Jerusalem, which symbolises the people living there. He said that there had been many times when he had wanted to protect them like a hen shelters her chicks under her wings - but they refused him.

    So, what did he predict for Jerusalem in the future for rejecting him? Nothing humanitarian, as you seem to want, but rather destruction for those living within the city together with their children.

    Jesus cared for those, whom his Father gave to him to redeem on the cross. He did not care the rest of mankind. For example, he specifically taught the people in such a way that they would NOT understand what he said and to prevent them being converted to him. That is why he taught in parables and only explained their meaning to a few disciples who had faith in him as opposed to some sort of belief.

    Following Christ's non-humanitarian example towards those destined for Hades which he and his father designed for those without faith in him, I am not a humanist nor a humanitarian. I am a divinist, caring about the honour and glory of Jesus Christ.

    So, what is going to happen to most people in the world is like what happened to most people outside God's Chosen People in Old Testament times. They suffered a constant litany of hunger, starvation, mourning and death, but Israel was fed and watered by miracle throughout their 40 years in the desert.

    "what good is it if someone says he has faith, but doesn't have corresponding works? If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, and one of you says to them, 'Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,' but does not give them the things which are needed for the body, what's the good of his faith? Thus, also, faith by itself, if it does not manifest in works, is dead" (James 2:14).

    This quote depends entirely on who is my brother or sister. My understanding is that it is the fellow Child of God who is my brother or my sister, the person who by faith keeps to the Teaching, the Truth and the Words of Jesus Christ.

    Therefore, the person who is not born from Above and whose being is not from God is NOT my brother or sister, and I have no responsibility for them arising from this paragraph in James.

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  • Sat, Aug 22, 2020 - 8:56am

    #9
    Mohammed Mast

    Mohammed Mast

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    Joined: May 17 2017

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    17

    Christianity? NOT

    I believe there is a policy on this site to refrain from discussing religion.

    Clearly in the US most are supposedly Christians so the occasional reference to scripture is to be expected. I would hope that people here would refrain from proselytizing their own religious views and interpretations of what may have been said 2,000 years ago.

    I have posted at various times what some might consider a religious comment in regards to the particular age we find ourselves in. I do so from a philosophical point of view to offer a different lens with which to view the world, not to claim some sort of moral high ground. I have zero religious affiliation.

    This thread is about the "system" and how it oppresses those not connected and richly benefits those with the midas touch of being able to turn dross to gold, and benefiting their friends. I would hope we would confine the discussion to the subject at hand and while offering our personal insights present some data.

    Thanks

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  • Sat, Aug 22, 2020 - 9:03am

    #10
    Mysterymet

    Mysterymet

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    Joined: May 23 2020

    Posts: 149

    13

    Can’t change the world but can help locally

    prepare, pay off debts, be ready to help friends and family in times of need. Support your local community by joining your volunteer ambulance or fire company. Have compassion but be ready to fight tooth and nail to protect your family from what is to come. The default setting on people is NOT good. Its not bad either. Its just survival. I know I cannot change the world. However, I can improve my small piece of it.

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  • Sat, Aug 22, 2020 - 9:46am

    #11
    Nate

    Nate

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    Joined: May 05 2009

    Posts: 503

    14

    California wildfires

    On the California wildfire thread Grover posted this:

    During my third year, my opinion of fighting fires changed completely from where it had been 3 years earlier. Fire is part of nature to keep forests and its wildlife healthy. Suppressing the fires at all costs just promotes conditions that make an inevitable fire all that more devastating. Nature always bats last. Forest managers are wising up and physically reducing dense brush in strategic corridors to help keep the fires from raging out of control. This comes at enormous costs and is needed simply because of overzealous firefighting actions for the last century +. At some point, our resources will dwindle enough to make heroic firefighting efforts too expensive. Then what?

    Couldn't help but think about the parallels between fighting fires and saving our monetary system.  If we continue to save the current system, more and more 'brush' builds up and when the big one hits, the final cleansing fire will be devastating.  Reality will bat last.

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  • Sat, Aug 22, 2020 - 9:52am

    Mpup

    Mpup

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    2

    Reply to jturbo

    My apologies if I misunderstand what you are saying.  I am not "moralizing" about the poor needing free food.  One can be poor economically and rich spiritually.  My grandfather many years ago told me that "we make our own beds and we have to sleep in them." Poor life decisions and choices often end up making ones life more difficult.

    Those who are fortunate to have had parents, grandparents, or other mentor that emphasized education, work ethics, self sufficiency, personal responsibility, and spiritual values are usually far "ahead" in life.   I have great empathy for those struggling to get by.  I worked for many years helping to assure individuals and families had good medical care.  We all have a role in helping others, especially family.

    We as parents or grandparents have a responsibility to nurture, teach, love, and give guidance to our children and grandchildren.  When this fails or ceases to happen generations of families and society as a whole is negatively affected.  Ultimately unless or until there is a spiritual revival in our country we will go down the same path of delusion and defeat, with "hollyweird" and the "media" as major contributors.

     

     

     

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  • Sat, Aug 22, 2020 - 10:25am

    gkcjrrt

    gkcjrrt

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    Joined: Sep 20 2016

    Posts: 34

    3

    Christian Ethics, YES!

    I agree with you that this sight should not be used for  "proselytizing their own religious views".  However and with respect,  whether a person is christian, muslim, atheist, buddhist, etc, ultimately impacts that person's worldview, and informs how they interpret events and their responses to it .    As GK Chesterton once observed: "Politics and Religion are the only 2 things worth talking about".

    What we're discussing as you say  is the system:  "how it oppresses those not connected and richly benefits those with the midas touch of being able to turn dross to gold, and benefiting their friends."

    There is no real dispute that it was the rise of christianity in the west that taught that men are brothers and that each human had equal dignity to any other.  Before Christ, labor was not valued and men were born slaves and exploited to do the work for the powerful.   Islam teaches as well the brotherhood of man.

    We are rapidly devolving into the system you rightly observe is corrupt and oppressive to many - precisely b/c we have lost the "christian ethic" as a society.   Where are the secular humanists now?

     

    I

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  • Sat, Aug 22, 2020 - 11:21am

    PVF Cosgrove

    PVF Cosgrove

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    PVF Cosgrove said:

    PVF, slavery takes on many forms.  In one way or another we may all be slaves to something or someone.  At one time in our nation, involuntary servitude (slavery) was was acceptable.

    As unemployment becomes permanent for many, the misery it brings will have some people wishing for occupation. Occupation as a slave, if the slave owner is a good person, might be better than the depression of uselessness.

    Abraham, who was the genetic father of those with faith in Christ and of Jews, had slaves. They were employed by him but without weekly wages, which were given in the form of food. Better to be a slave than to starve!

    His most senior servant was a slave because there was no Pay As You Earn system in existence in those far off days. This slave was totally loyal and trustworthy to Abraham, who commissioned him to bring back a wife from his relatives in Haran for his miracle son, Isaac. This slave did this superbly and constantly honoured Abraham's God whilst persuading Rebecca to come back home with him.

    What a wonderful picture of slavery in a world devoid of economics! I think slavery will increase with so many idle hands around, so that there ought to be a government minister for the protection of slaves in each country.

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  • Sat, Aug 22, 2020 - 12:16pm

    Mohammed Mast

    Mohammed Mast

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    Joined: May 17 2017

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    8

    Christian ethics

    I am not here to debate religion. Whether a religion shapes my world view is irrelevant to the conversation.  I would appreciate it if you and others would refrain from promoting "Christian Values"  Having studied world religion for over 60 years I would posit that most here would be unable to enter in a rational discussion of religion.

    If your particular religion gives you comfort i am happy for you just as I am happy for Hladini that she derives comfort from Hinduism? Vedanta. That is entirely beside the point. The point is that we are discussing the system here. We are not discussing religion.

    Again thanks .

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  • Sat, Aug 22, 2020 - 12:21pm

    Mohammed Mast

    Mohammed Mast

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    Posts: 1211

    9

    Hey Cosgrove

    I have now posted 2x about religion. You are new here so you may not be aware this is an agnostic site. We do not discuss or promote religion here. Out of respect for Chris and Adam I would think you would respect their wishes and refrain from you religious proselytizing. The internet is a very big place I am sure you can find a place where you can preach. This ain it.

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  • Sat, Aug 22, 2020 - 1:09pm

    #17
    Mohammed Mast

    Mohammed Mast

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    Joined: May 17 2017

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    Point of Disagreement Chris

    I think you are off base and using an incorrect term when you use "slavery" as the current system. While an argument could be made that debt is a form of slavery, the term has most often been used in regards to physical subjugation with no or very little freedom.

    Of course it is a charged term and elicits some typical and atypical responses.

    I have found a more accurate and less charged term to be serf. Classically slaves were physically subjugated and had no freedom of movement. They could not benefit from the fruits of their labor. These and other limitations do not apply to Amerikaans.

    Serfdom is more accurate in the sense of bondage but bondage to the land. Serfs did receive some , though not much, of the fruits of their labors. Serfdom was obviously a major part of Feudalism. Feudalism gave way to mercantilism. Feudalism was too cumbersome to survive. The elites of the time needed the services of serfs w/o the accompanying responsibility.

    Thus the rise of a monetary system in which the granting of a certain amount of freedom (actually an illusion for most) yet receiving the benefits of another's labor with very little responsibility. It is a far more elegant system, and much less cumbersome than slavery or Feudalism.

    So modern day serfs are not tied to the land, they are tied to the monetary system a la debt. The serfs are happy because they can vote, assemble, (sort of), worship the deity of their choosing, even own a weapon.

    Michael Hudson has written about this system extensively. What he has pointed out is the development of a Global Neo Feudalist system.

    "Neo-feudalism is an economy in which most families have to pay all of their disposable income to the people who possess property and credit. A feudal economy is based on rent and debt service. In medieval times it was run by the landlord class. But today, bankers and bondholders have gained ascendency. Even landlords and monopolists are indebted to the economy’s financial managers. For wage earners, the result is debt peonage: Whatever they earn, they owe to “the company store."

    https://michael-hudson.com/2017/10/reality-detours/

    None of this is by happenstance. The landlord has been a part of history for millenia. The names change, the faces change but the system is still run by an aristocracy.

    I have no idea what will be discussed in pt. 2 as i am not a subscriber but 11 years ago thanks to a White Paper written by satoshi Nakamoto a new democratic monetary system was envisioned. Since then it has been populated by speculators who have displaced the early adopters who were anarcho/capitalists. With the development of DEFI that early vision just might regain some traction. I certainly hope so for all our sakes. It is quite disappointing that this development has gone largely unnoticed and unexplored here. To keep participating in a system which is bent on keeping you a serf is a form of insanity. You cannot change the system from inside anymore than you can change politics by voting.

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  • Sat, Aug 22, 2020 - 1:18pm

    #18
    Mpup

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    Thanks VT and MM

    Both your points are well taken.  If one chooses to work for payment in kind or if one chooses to be a "slave" to a higher power go for it.   Without doubt I am of the Christian Faith.  One has never been able to "push" faith on another.  It comes only from personal acceptance.   The primary point I've tried to make is that people should at least read the New Testament before condemning others for their faith.

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  • Sat, Aug 22, 2020 - 1:25pm

    jturbo68

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    jturbo68 said:

    Hi Mpup,

    I doubt that many here would disagree about striving to be ones best and taking care of family as a way of maximizing ones chances in maneuvering in the current system.

    I was just opining more concern about the largess heaped on the monied classes (700B/yr in military Really!?) vs the relatively small amounts reluctantly given by either party to failing poor and middle class.

    Where I live (KY), most people I run into are still onboard with the failure is your own fault mantra, so no matter how successful or hard working, once you roll under the bus, it then becomes ones own personal failing ( and why should we subsidize your failure to be resilient enough).  I suspect that these people see their own bus coming, and cling to hope that it misses them or that they can desperately outrun the bus.  This seems like its its own form of slavery, albeit, one that the economic system is probably fine with.

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  • Sat, Aug 22, 2020 - 1:39pm

    jturbo68

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    5

    Discussion on PP

    To my thinking, the discussion on PP gets closer to useful and actionable discussion than anywhere where Politics or Religion are the topics for conversation.

    People behave more like secular humanists once they are not allowed to engage the above.

    I suggest that the secular humanists are trying to save the world and they are here on PP, even if some of them are religious.

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  • Sat, Aug 22, 2020 - 3:13pm

    #21
    Mots

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    "The most basic reality.... is that fossil fuel energy" limitation is driving the collapse

    The most important point of this essay is that the end of the Oil Age is the driver of economic collapse.  We should focus on this reality.  Putting dreams aside, what exactly can we do to make the best transition to other energy sources?  What are you doing?

    Each energy transition in the past has caused tremendous social/cultural/habit changes and this new transition is not an exception.
    Energy generation and use must be the central focus of every resilient community, whether the community is within a dying empire in Massachusetts or on a small island in the Pacific within a 700 year old civilization that has survived much worse.  Dealing with this energy transition head on, with maturity and intelligence will be the source of true freedom and prosperity.
    Does anyone want to talk about this?  I just finished a series of short essays on this topic.  Anyone interested? thanks

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  • Sat, Aug 22, 2020 - 4:09pm

    #22
    Grover

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    Debt Serfs

    Mohammed Mast wrote:

    I have found a more accurate and less charged term to be serf. Classically slaves were physically subjugated and had no freedom of movement. They could not benefit from the fruits of their labor. These and other limitations do not apply to Amerikaans.

    Mohammed,

    I agree. Although slave and serf can be used interchangeably, "serf" doesn't carry the emotional baggage that "slave" carries with it. Slavery has been with humanity as long as one group has the power to keep slaves. Serfdom, on the other hand, has been able to avoid the idea of chained bondage. Today's serfs are choosing who their masters are by engaging in debt. If you owe a debt, you are a serf. The degree is determined by your ability to extinguish that debt.

    jturbo68 wrote:

    I doubt that many here would disagree about striving to be ones best and taking care of family as a way of maximizing ones chances in maneuvering in the current system.

    I was just opining more concern about the largess heaped on the monied classes (700B/yr in military Really!?) vs the relatively small amounts reluctantly given by either party to failing poor and middle class.

    Where I live (KY), most people I run into are still onboard with the failure is your own fault mantra, so no matter how successful or hard working, once you roll under the bus, it then becomes ones own personal failing ( and why should we subsidize your failure to be resilient enough).  I suspect that these people see their own bus coming, and cling to hope that it misses them or that they can desperately outrun the bus.  This seems like its its own form of slavery, albeit, one that the economic system is probably fine with.

    jturbo68,

    Do you realize that the military is what really backs the dollar? If another country dares to undermine the dollar, our ""leaders"" will manufacture an excuse to invade their country. (That is an unwritten rule that all the world's leaders understand.) It gives us an unearned position in the world and a higher standard of living than we deserve. (Like you seem to be, I'm appalled by the way the Department of Defense has been used as the Department of Offense. Unfortunately, the only way to change it is by voting. Voting based on that criteria is doomed to failure. Both Red and Blue Teams want a strong military to assert our dominion over others. Any vote outside of those 2 teams is generally just pissing in the wind.)

    How do people get a higher standard of living? Either by working (or investing) and not consuming as much as comes in ... or by accumulating debt. Those who keep adding to their debt load dig themselves deeper and deeper in the hole. It takes discipline to keep from getting overloaded. Taking on debt should be viewed as a business decision - because the debtor is obligating themselves to paying much more in the future. Is the vacation to far, far away really necessary? How about a new house or a new car? Then, there are the meals eaten out because "it's too much work to cook." What about those new stylish clothes or that tasty latte? Don't forget the tip. It all adds up, and eventually, it becomes too much.

    Granted, there are some who got unlucky despite being frugal and disciplined. Even if those people were forced to declare bankruptcy, their attitudes would allow them to recover. It's the ones who imposed this burden on themselves who wouldn't learn the important lesson. Bail them out and they'll soon be deeper in debt than they were. I feel sorry that they won't learn, but I don't feel responsible for their plight.

    Grover

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  • Sat, Aug 22, 2020 - 5:14pm

    Rector

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    2

    "The lady doth protest too much, methinks"

    Chill.

    Rector

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  • Sat, Aug 22, 2020 - 7:21pm

    jturbo68

    Status: Bronze Member

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    1

    Investing in ones future

    A little before my time, but I recall that in the 50,60,70s a single worker could support a middle class lifestyle for a family.  If I recall correctly, the productivity adjusted minimum wage would be something on the order of $22/hr in todays dollars.    For most workers $22/hour would be a blessing even after many years of working. Where are the incentives for anyone to strive and invest into this system that gives unlimited socialism to the well off and almost nothing to them.

    8B in one day to Elon ...but cut out lattes and avoid any missteps for you.

    Pull yourself up by the bootstraps, indeed!  And if you dont ... here comes the BUS. Talk about being a serf to the system(Hat tip to MM!).

     

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  • Sat, Aug 22, 2020 - 7:38pm

    #25
    VegasJim

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    "reported by the media as those “evicted” or “foreclosed on"

    In a Walmart parking lot in Vegas today:

    Kind of reminds me of:

    Take care,

    Jim

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  • Sat, Aug 22, 2020 - 8:05pm

    #26
    Mohammed Mast

    Mohammed Mast

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    Sorry Grover

    People who use the words slave and serf interchangeably do not know what the words mean. That would be comparing apples and oranges.

    One major difference a slave could be sold. Serfs could not be sold. There is no ownership of a human in serfdom, they were tied to the land, so if the land was sold then the serf went with the land. Slaves could not own property. Serfs could acquire property.

    There is more but it goes to my main point which apparently has been missed. Michael Hudson has written extensively on the subject. It boils down to the establishment of debt peonage in a Global Neo Feudal System. It should be obvious to everyone here that central banks are the lords of the manor and we are the serfs. Every Amerikaan at this moment is in debt peonage to the tune of $75,000 approx. Thus every child born in the US comes with an inherited debt. IE. every Amerikaan infant is a serf by birth. Modern serfs are not tied to the land they are tied to the monetary system through debt.

    Satoshi Nakamoto devised a system for modern serfs to become freemen. That message has not made it here after 11 years.

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  • Sat, Aug 22, 2020 - 8:42pm

    #27
    centroid

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    centroid said:

    Bitcoin

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  • Sat, Aug 22, 2020 - 9:03pm

    #28
    Grover

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    Serfs, Slaves, and Bitcoin

    Mohammed,

    This is from Dictionary.com

    Slave:

    noun

    1. a person who is the property of and wholly subject to another; a bond servant.
    2. a person entirely under the domination of some influence or person: a slave to a drug.

    Serf

    noun

    1. a person in a condition of servitude, required to render services to a lord, commonly attached to the lord's land and transferred with it from one owner to another.
    2. a slave.

    I would say the terms are essentially interchangeable. There are different connotations with each of the terms; however, they basically describe the same condition - that of required servitude. For what it's worth, I prefer the term "serf" to describe our volunteer debt slaves.

    Mohammed Mast wrote:

    Satoshi Nakamoto devised a system for modern serfs to become freemen. That message has not made it here after 11 years.

    Who (singular or group) is Satoshi Nakamoto? Is/are he/they a saint(s) or just a pseudonym used by a nefarious group who wants to get people's greed to trick them into getting familiar with cryptocurrency? How would you know for sure?

    What makes you think that the powers who have everything to lose wouldn't declare Bitcoin (and all the wannabes) to be illegal when they are up against the wall and it suits their purposes? What happens to the value of each Bitcoin then? What happens when/if quantum computing can decipher the code and spoof coins as desired? Until then, it is a great trading vehicle. After that, the wheels disappear.

    Grover

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  • Sat, Aug 22, 2020 - 11:43pm

    davefairtex

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    3

    quantum-resistant coins

    Grover-

    So there's a fix to the quantum computing problem.  The "making the coin illegal" problem?  No fix.  And I think that's a probable outcome, at least in some jurisdictions.

    I think quantum is definitely a thing.  It will break bitcoin someday, along with a lot of other stuff.  And, the event may not be advertised.  It may just happen, without any announcement at all.  I think that's the most likely outcome, actually.  Timeframe on that is uncertain.

    The fix?

    NIST (NSA) is currently evaluating a series of quantum-resistant crypto algorithms.  The evaluation process happens in "rounds" - they are on round #3 right now.  There were 140+ submissions for round #1.  They are down to 8 algorithms in round #3.

    https://www.nist.gov/news-events/news/2020/07/nists-post-quantum-cryptography-program-enters-selection-round

    https://csrc.nist.gov/publications/detail/nistir/8309/final

    One of these algorithms, called Rainbow, is among the 3 finalists in the "digital signature" division.

    Rainbow is actually used in a...well the impolite term is a sh*tcoin, named ABC.  ABC is basically just bitcoin, but with Rainbow used in place of the standard cryptography - for digital signatures, as well as mining.

    Because of the difficulty in replacing the crypto algorithm for the bitcoin miners - you need to change the actual mining algorithm, it isn't just a tweak - the miners will (most likely) not switch over until an actual quantum computer is stealing coins.  That's because their mining hardware is expensive, and it can't be retrofitted to work with the new algorithm.

    So - the story goes, quantum is a thing, it really will hose bitcoin - eventually, and probably by surprise - the miners probably will resist change because they would have to throw away all that mining hardware which is currently making them money.

    So I'm long ABC.  ABC is a bet on Rainbow being blessed by NSA/NIST for digital signatures, and a bet on crypto holders to suddenly start caring about quantum computing.

    And a caveat: unlike bitcoin, which has a lifetime limit of maybe 20 million coins, ABC will eventually have (I think) a billion coins someday.  I think the idea was to make enough coins for people to use, like a dollar, rather than a hoardable item, where you only spend small fractions in transactions.  ABC will never be worth $18,000/coin.  It was designed as a dollar-replacement, more or less.

    But, you don't need to buy the coin, you can mine it!  Today, a GTX 1080 TI can mine maybe a block per day, at 2560 coins per block.  There really isn't much interest.

    http://abcmint.org/download.html

    Anyhow, so that's the fix to the quantum computing problem.  A fix, anyway.  And your chance to learn about mining crypto.  Woohoo!

    My side project.

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  • Sun, Aug 23, 2020 - 6:14am

    Mohammed Mast

    Mohammed Mast

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    OKAY GROVER YOU ARE CORRECT

    Serfs and slaves are exactly the same.

    Just as the space shuttle is a vehicle and so is a 1963 VW bug

    You win now enjoy your slavery

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  • Sun, Aug 23, 2020 - 10:23am

    yracaz

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    yracaz said:

    Thanks Sand Puppy for being willing to share your pain. I too have sought to not waste my pain and use it to open my heart to connect with a richer emotional experience of my humanity and relationships with others.

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  • Sun, Aug 23, 2020 - 10:56am

    Mpup

    Mpup

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    Reply to jturbo

    Thanks for the reply jt, I would agree that many times through no fault of their own people though they have worked hard, made sacrifices, and made a conscious effort to be "successful" (whatever that means) sometimes meet with events (often health) that alter or undermine that success.  For those it is a true shame.  No doubt we all know someone that has occurred to.   None have guarantees in life, not even the wealthy.

    In truth, many that are wealthy are so, not only because of their years of hard work, but because they have built upon past generations of family wealth.  Another important reason for family.  When there is no family structure wealth is extremely difficult to build and to pass on to children.  Single parent families struggle just to get by, much less build wealth.  Divorce too, often ruins the wealth families have accumulated.  I know that many may not agree, however we ultimately get back to the concept of a value system and what those values are based upon.  Our founders understood that our country and our form of government could only succeed if the people as a whole were righteous.  That righteousness as expressed in the Declaration Of Independence given by our Creator.

    There is right and wrong, though today many don't even give that a thought.  Without some timeless basis for "moral" behavior there is none.  For well over two thousand years, Biblical values have served mankind well.  Sad that today most have no idea of, or care about those values, those that do are ridiculed or scorned for their belief.  That my friends is why our Country is so divided and why we are on the precipice ready for the big fall.  Much if not most of what Chris and Peak Prosperity relates to is being prepared.  Economic and material preparation is important.  Absent of spiritual preparation it is much less meaningful.  I wrote a short and simple poem about this I would share, but some would view it in poor taste so it's a no go.  Enough of the soapbox,  I'm sure many are glad I'm done with this thread 🙂   Be well

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  • Sun, Aug 23, 2020 - 11:47am

    Grover

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    Spoofing

    Dave,

    There are lots of Bitcoins out there that have been essentially lost. If I had a computer that could duplicate (spoof) the intrinsic code that identifies a specific Bitcoin as well as the key to unlock it, I'd look for coins that haven't seen any activity for many years and start duplicating those. Slowly, I'd get those coins back into the system and collect the current ~$11K for each one. I wouldn't announce my discovery at all.

    As far as the system of checks would be concerned, my spoof coins would be just as valid as any that were legitimately mined. Once sold to someone else, the original owners would be hosed. Get a few of these people to announce that their coins were stolen, and the result will be that belief in system integrity collapses. Who would want to have a Bitcoin that can't be protected? What is it worth then?

    It would be akin to someone developing a Star Trek teleporter to whisk gold bars/coins out of your safe storage. You wouldn't know your gold is gone until you tried to retrieve it.

    Perhaps my monkey mind just pursued a wild fantasy. I'm not smart enough, nor do I have the computer to do this even if I wanted to. There are folks out there who are smart enough and look for free money wherever they can get it. That's what I was trying to describe by "spoofing." It could go on surreptitiously for quite a while.

    The idea of cryptocurrency scares the hell out of me. I like the anonymity of cash. With cryptocurrency, every transaction gets tracked. Imagine if government wanted to commandeer the cryptocurrency space (by declaring all other cryptocurrencies illegal) to get every last drop of taxes they could. They could even limit your ability to buy or sell based on criteria they set forth. Are you a trouble maker? Are you trying to evade the police? Are you just a political rival? Hmmm.

    Unfortunately, it is likely to come regardless of my wishing it wouldn't. It is too lucrative not to become reality.

    Grover

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  • Sun, Aug 23, 2020 - 12:24pm

    Grover

    Grover

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    We're On The Same Side

    Mohammed Mast wrote:

    Serfs and slaves are exactly the same.

    Just as the space shuttle is a vehicle and so is a 1963 VW bug

    You win now enjoy your slavery

    Mohammed,

    My wife actually owned a 1963 VW bug. (Her sister had a '59 Karman Ghia.) It ran great ... until it didn't. Then, it had to be towed back (like a space shuttle) to be repaired for its next voyage. My father-in-law bought a spare engine that he could repair and swap out when the other engine failed. Because he wasn't the best mechanic, the repaired engine failed more often than it should. It was job security.

    I'm confined to the surface of the earth due to physical laws. I can escape momentarily on my own, but gravity always wins in the end. Does that make me a slave? I actually find that comforting. I worked hard during my career so I could earn enough to get the things I needed and some of the things I wanted. I was so intent that my friends would accuse me of being a slave to my job. (I often would dream about solutions to work problems at night.) Technically, they were incorrect; however, it was understood what was being said.

    Isn't that the goal of communication? To convey a thought so that others gain an understanding of what is being communicated. Just as there are major differences between a space shuttle and a 1963 VW bug, there are nuanced differences between a serf and a slave. Is the difference a mole hill or a mountain?

    Slave is an emotionally charged word - especially for those folks who have a cultural memory of being enslaved. Serf doesn't carry such baggage with it; yet the terms describe similar conditions. Calling someone a debt serf doesn't conjure up the intense imagery that debt slave does. That's why I prefer debt serf.

    Grover

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  • Sun, Aug 23, 2020 - 1:43pm

    #35
    QQQBall

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    Brutally good

    Spot on.

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  • Sun, Aug 23, 2020 - 3:15pm

    drbrucedale

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    Yup...I am a fan...big time!

    Yes, Grannie, I am a big fan of Gail Tverberg!

    I have been following her ever since she wrote for the Oil Drum. Talk about data-driven...she is the uncrowned queen of data.  🙂

    I think Chris should interview her sometime. She has many of the same perspectives that he does...and enough different ones so that additional insights can be gained.

    For example, Gail thinks that we will never really have "peak oil"...as oil prices rise they crush the consumer and the economy, but if they don't rise, the producers can't make a living either. What that means to me is that we are going to have to reconfigure our economy, sooner or later, to make room for oil at a much higher price that rewards the producers...but wrings out some of the ridiculous uses to which we put that fabulous energy resource.

    Chris, would you please consider inviting Gail Tverberg for an interview?

    Bruce

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  • Sun, Aug 23, 2020 - 3:55pm

    #37
    ezlxq1949

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    Does Bitcoin live in the Internet?

    I've spent almost no time following or learning about Bitcoin(s) and the other cryptocurrencies. There's far too much unreal stuff in this world and I don't propose to entrust or convert any of my very real assets to the unreal.

    So, my question: if the Internet or some part of it goes down, is that the end of Bitcoin(s)?

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  • Sun, Aug 23, 2020 - 4:07pm

    hammer6166

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    hammer6166 said:

    It has been a while since Chris interviewed her. Here is the most recent podcast from 2018:

    Gail Tverberg: The Coming Energy Depression

    There are at least four more podcast before the latest one.

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  • Sun, Aug 23, 2020 - 5:33pm

    VTGothic

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    Bitcoin is the most real asset in our digital age

    For context: I would not convert my pm to bitcoin, much less any other crypto. However, I do also own crypto, dominantly bitcoin.

    Yes, bitcoin "lives in the internet." So does your bank account, stock and bond investment portfolio, and US Treasuries and CDs stash. Perhaps even your mortgage and auto loans are now only digital; certainly your revolving credit accounts.

    Unlike all of those "very real" assets, all of which "live" on much smaller networks with centralized cores, Bitcoin "lives" on a broadly distributed net, and therefore has no choke point. The only way for an internet failure to destroy bitcoin is for the entire internet to go down. The entire worldwide internet. That alone makes it very anti-fragile.

    And no matter where in the world you are, you can access your bitcoin from any computer - and now via satellite phone, which will become a widely adopted option in the next few years. So now, even if the entire internet does go down, the satellite communication system would also have to go down for your bitcoin to be lost. That's not just anti-fragile, that's pretty darned robust.

    You cannot say the same for your savings, stocks, treasuries, and credit card accounts. As repeated data breaches and periodic denial of service attacks show, your "very real" assets are on a far more fragile system than is bitcoin; and bitcoin is in a class of its own compared to every other cryptocurrency for the same reason.

    Plus, icing on the cake, bitcoin cannot be either used or stolen from you without your cooperation, and no one can rehypothesize the coins you have tucked away in your wallet.  However, your cash instruments and precious metals can be pledged multiple times without you knowing it, and stolen.

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  • Sun, Aug 23, 2020 - 6:27pm

    #40
    nordicjack

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    I am confused where bitcoin is viable.

    I am bit confused how bitcoin become anything desirable.  In the event of something happening with power, internet, communications the money evaporates.  what is worse, is this is exactly what the whole new world order is about.. Having your funds nothing but electronic , where they are blocked at any single time, to limit your travel and freedoms.     And it would be one thing if bitcoin control was immune to the powers that be in the US.  But the fed has already demonstrated on multiple occasions to cease and freeze all bitcoin assets of a specific individual,   So it already defeated and now far less safe than conventional currency... Someone would have to explain to me in lay terms how this is a good asset.

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  • Sun, Aug 23, 2020 - 7:14pm

    000

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    Due Diligence is Important if you are serious about Bitcoin

    Andreas M. Antonopoulos is a technologist and serial entrepreneur who has become one of the most well-known and well-respected figures in bitcoin.

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  • Sun, Aug 23, 2020 - 7:22pm

    #42
    skipr

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    private keys

    The government, central banks, etc cannot touch your bitcoins as long as you control your private encryption keys.  This is best done with hardware wallets like Trezor and Ledger.  The banks and governments are trying to introduce their own cryptos.  That's just another form of fiat since they control their quantity.  No DNA based person and Supreme Court definition of a person (aka corporation) can increase the quantity beyond that defined within the software.  That quantity will eventually converge to 21 million.  Many of those will be lost forever by blunders.

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  • Sun, Aug 23, 2020 - 7:32pm

    #43
    Time2help

    Time2help

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    Time2help said:

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  • Sun, Aug 23, 2020 - 9:13pm

    #44

    davefairtex

    Status: Member

    Joined: Sep 03 2008

    Posts: 2296

    3

    risks to bitcoin

    The only way the government can seize bitcoin is if it is stored on an exchange they have control over.  If your bitcoin is stored in a normal bitcoin wallet (which is just a transaction log entry on the blockchain - accessible via your encryption key), then government cannot seize anything.

    In order to spend your coins, you must have 2 things:

    1) your encryption key.

    2) access to the bitcoin network.

    If you lose your key, the coins in the wallet are stranded - nobody can spend them.  Not you, not the government, not Satoshi, assuming he exists.

    If you don't have some sort of powered computing device,  you can't spend your coins - you need some sort of computer (phone, laptop, etc) that runs an app that, using the key you supply, generates a transaction.

    If your computing device doesn't have network connectivity, you can't spend your coins.

    If you have network connectivity, but you can't connect to the bitcoin network, you can't spend your coins.

    If every bitcoin full node in the world goes down, and if every miner in the world goes down, then you can't spend your coins.

    If your ISP (or, by extension, your country) disallowed connections to the bitcoin network - unless you found a way around this, you couldn't spend your coins.

    If the legal/criminal penalty for being detected connecting to the bitcoin network was substantial in your jurisdiction, and the chances of being detected was reasonably large, then you might not want to take the risk of spending your coins.

    But the only way you can permanently "lose" your coins is for you to lose your key.  Or, for every bitcoin full node in the world to go down, and have their disk wiped.

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  • Mon, Aug 24, 2020 - 4:52am

    arjun12

    arjun12

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    theganimikava

    the ganimikava is a news portal.

    https://www.theganimikava.com/security-873

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  • Mon, Aug 24, 2020 - 4:57am

    #46
    arjun12

    arjun12

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    arjun12 said:

    Nice post

    https://www.theganimikava.com/drive-safety

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  • Mon, Aug 24, 2020 - 5:00am

    #47
    arjun12

    arjun12

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    arjun12 said:

    nice article

    https://www.theganimikava.com/internet-addiction

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  • Mon, Aug 24, 2020 - 5:04am

    #48
    arjun12

    arjun12

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    Joined: Aug 24 2020

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    arjun12 said:

    Nice posr

    https://www.theganimikava.com/Best-keyboard-technology

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  • Mon, Aug 24, 2020 - 5:49am

    VTGothic

    VTGothic

    Status: Silver Member

    Joined: Jan 05 2020

    Posts: 425

    2

    Hopefully, some clarification

    @Nordicjack: I want to take the time to respond piecemeal to your questioning of Bitcoin because I think you're caught in normalcy bias. Reality is not, today, what your assumptions indicate you apparently think it is. And anti-fragility requires responding to the world that is, not the one we remember or wish would be. I'm hoping to be informative here, not in the least critical, so please bear with me a bit. And then look at the Antonopoulos video OOO linked in comment #42.

    In the event of something happening with power, internet, communications the money evaporates.

    This is true. It's also true for your bank account, investment portfolio, credit cards, and likely mortgage. But for Bitcoin it's only true if the whole world's systems disappeared; for your fiat records it only takes your country's system's failure. This was already addressed in comments #40 and #45, so I don't want to lengthen this post by repeating them.

    Having your funds nothing but electronic , where they are blocked at any single time, to limit your travel and freedoms.

    Electronic-only funds is coming; the digitization of all finances is actually already here. After all, when “the Fed go brrrr,” all it's doing is creating digital dollars that it then sends to whom it wishes, and withholds from whom it wishes. Likewise, when your local banker approves your bank loan, all she does is enter some new digits in her computer and credit them to your account – she doesn't even need to secure those digits with real dollars. When you pay your credit card company online all you do is move digits; no real dollars are in play. In fact, very nearly every transaction you make, except in-face P2P, is done digitally; and even your P2P transactions soon after become digital. 

    You already know the dollar bill in your wallet is not real money. It's just a claim on an algorithm. So you can't exchange it for anything that you can't exchange Bitcoin for. In fact, most of the time, you just use your credit or debit card to effect a transaction. That card merely represents the dollar that merely represents that algorithm.

    As you know, you can have a debit or credit card secured by your gold holdings. You can have one secured by your Bitcoin holdings, too. In fact, for daily transactions, you have to somehow convert your gold to dollars. That's done digitally, typically now by such a card, as it's a lot faster (and more secure) than carrying a gold coin in to an exchange and waiting for dollars to be credited to your account. If you're drawing off of a quantity of precious metal secured in a vault, you either access it electronically or you travel to wherever in the world it is to get some out. That travel to get to your vault is no different than the travel to get to a working internet connection to access your Bitcoin, if it comes to that.

    this is exactly what the whole new world order is about.

    That's hyper-true of the fiat system; it's not true of Bitcoin. Everything I wrote in the last 3 paragraphs about using cards representing your fiat is controlled by choke points. The government can – and regularly does – interfere along the way. Its power to do so is growing. And all of that is “global world order” compliant; and it's easily spied upon or locked down, at the whim of governments.

    Bitcoin is the answer to that. What Davefairtex said (comment #45) is spot on, if you grasp the nuance: “The only way the government can seize bitcoin is if it is stored on an exchange they have control over.

    The exchange is the key for the government. That's where crypto is converted to fiat. But, unlike with fiat-denominated wealth, no one government controls all of the exchanges. Therefore, a person has more options to access Bitcoin locked down in a jurisdiction than fiat locked down in that jurisdiction.

    Furthermore, especially regarding the US, as long as the world uses the dollar for trade settlement, as long as 80% of world debt is dollar-denominated – making the world extremely dependent on dollars to stay solvent – no country will stand up to the US demands about locking down your currency transactions. That's already been demonstrated repeatedly. Even “rebellious” regimes like Iran and Russia are forced to bend the knee at least partially, because even they need some dollars. But the US cannot lock down Bitcoin because the distributed system it is located on is spread all over the globe. Take out any one or two or three nodes and the system continues. As Davefairtex said, they'd have to shut down every node, destroy all of the computing systems they were using, and wipe out the discs.

    That's highly unlikely. The system is far too robust at this point. It is far easier for the government to shut down all of the world's fiat computer systems than the Bitcoin network, because every fiat system is centralized: take out the central nodes and most of the work is done; after that it's just mopping up.

    The same is true for most cryptocurrencies. It is not true for Bitcoin. That's one significant characteristic that sets Bitcoin apart.

    And it would be one thing if bitcoin control was immune to the powers that be in the US. But the fed has already demonstrated on multiple occasions to cease and freeze all bitcoin assets of a specific individual

    By watching the exchanges, the government can see you take money out of Bitcoin, and then seize that, and may likely be able to trace the transaction to more crypto. A determined focus by the government certainly can shut down any individual's ability to use Bitcoin. It cannot seize that Bitcoin. And it cannot shut down a group of Bitcoin users all at once. It has to target and pursue each Bitcoin user individually. That's very expensive in man-hours and dollars.

    Meanwhile, everything in that quote applies to your current fiat. And not just yours: the government could in one action shut down every account in your local bank branch, or in your whole bank network, or in the whole country. That is far from as secure as Bitcoin.

    A government can also shut down every citizen's ability to move fiat to another country; they can't stop Bitcoin from crossing borders. They can confiscate your gold or diamonds or cash – even your credit cards – at the border. They can't touch your Bitcoin. Even if they confiscate your computer and cell phone, you can still access your Bitcoin when you get to your destination.

    So it already defeated and now far less safe than conventional currency.

    I think if you combine my responses here with the information in comments #40 and #45, and watch the video linked in comment #42, you'll come away with a much better understanding of the current digital nature of the entire fiat system and its choke points that make it very "one world order" compliant. Grasping the Bitcoin use proposition requires a shift in how you think that is similar to the shift we all needed to make to understand that because gold is the real store of value, not fiat, the reality is that gold doesn't go up and down in price relative to the dollar, but the dollar goes up and down in purchasing value relative to an ounce of gold. In the case of Bitcoin, the shift is to realize how it operates outside the reach of any government, which makes it a true store of value and a preserver of individual autonomy, unlike your dollar-denominated assets - and unlike other cryptocurrencies. 

    I hope you'll begin to see that your worries about Bitcoin are actually the realities that apply to your fiat wealth today, and to your government-sanctioned assets (like your mortgage and portfolios), and to a lesser but not meaningless extent to your precious metals and other tangible forms of wealth storage - which can be stolen or confiscated, unlike Bitcoin.

    Those concerns do not apply to Bitcoin, although Bitcoin can be throttled by governments at the point where it intersects with fiat currencies. However, no one government can shut down all the points of Bitcoin interaction with fiat; in fact, if one (or some) jurisdictions outlaw or restrict access to Bitcoin, some others will see that as an opportunity to host crypto. We've already seen that, too.  Bottom line, neither fiat wealth nor precious metals are as anti-fragile and secure as Bitcoin.

    The problem is conceptual. Your assumptions appear to indicate you think today's highly digitized world is still yesterday's highly analog world. If so (if you are like I was), you likely think so because you still get paper dollars for your wallet and printed copies of your mortgage. You also get paper reports of your investment portfolio and credit card transactions. And because you can hold that paper in your hand, just as you always did before the internet era, you think those assets are tangible. They're not. Those pieces of paper are only representations of digitized assets.

    You might as well argue that if you print out your Bitcoin transaction record and hold it in your hand it's suddenly become real. But I know you'd reject that because unlike your dollar and stock account, Bitcoin didn't start in something tangible.

    That's the legacy thinking that keeps our corrupt fiat systems operating. Reality is very different. Even individual shares of company stocks are rehypothecated multiple times – so much so that it's sometimes impossible to do a forensic tracing of who actually owns a particular share of a stock that's been used in multiple kinds of transactions through multiple custodians. 

    In reality, if there were a run on either your bank or your brokerage house, you'd not get from either of them the full value accounted to your name. You might even be left holding an empty bag. That's reality. For that matter, you can't be certain any gold you have on account somewhere is actually yours – but you might find out if a run on your pm vault were to take place.

    Apart from land you own outright and can farm, two things are certain: the pm you have in your physical possession, and the Bitcoin you have in your digital wallet. Of the two, Bitcoin is the more secure, the more fungible, and the more transmittable. But I'd have both because they hedge against different risks and both hold value against fiat currencies.

    Bitcoin, however, is still in early adoption. And because of its limited total supply, as its adoption increases its nominal price has been rising faster than it would if it were a mature asset like gold. The pace of adoption is speeding up. That makes Bitcoin in particular, and select other cryptocurrencies more generally, good early-stage investments, too.

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  • Mon, Aug 24, 2020 - 9:46am

    #50

    Beckett Bennett

    Status: Silver Member

    Joined: Feb 06 2011

    Posts: 114

    0

    MOTS

    ”Does anyone want to talk about this?  I just finished a series of short essays on this topic.  Anyone interested? thanks“

    Hi MOTS, thanks for the PM, I assume it was to share the essay you mentioned above.  Unfortunately, I am locked out of my Personal Messaging and also prohibited from posting to forums.  You may remember I was kicked off for repeatedly requesting that PP include info on, as Andrew Yang refers to us “Normal People”.  Anyway, I am still being censored/punished.  Perhaps you could post the links on the site as others might find the essays informative as well.

    Thank you.  I appreciate the attempt to PM me as some of the flying monkeys have not been kind.

    AKGrannyWGrit

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  • Mon, Aug 24, 2020 - 12:51pm

    #51

    000

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    Joined: Dec 10 2013

    Posts: 315

    0

    Boy Scouts One Step Removed

    TILTING AT WINDMILLS: THE FBI CHASED IMAGINED ECO-ACTIVIST ENEMIES, DOCUMENTS REVEAL

    At the wind energy industry’s behest, the FBI and DHS gamed out attacks against targets that they acknowledged face no threat.

    https://theintercept.com/2020/08/24/fbi-fusion-center-environmental-wind/

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  • Mon, Aug 24, 2020 - 5:05pm

    #52
    Mohammed Mast

    Mohammed Mast

    Status: Gold Member

    Joined: May 17 2017

    Posts: 1211

    1

    Quantum Bitcoin

    Unfortunately I posted a long detailed essay on here that somehow got lost. The internet must have collapsed allover the world, or the NSA intercepted it, ot the GOVERNMENT confiscated it, or it got spoofed, or I lost my private key to PP. Well be that as it may I will in obviously much shorter form try to recreate what I posted.

    I was recently asked by someone here if i was willing to participate in a forum devoted to Crypto. In 2 long replies I laid out my experience here in broaching the subject. They are usually not enjoyable as is the case with reading the comments on this thread.  It would be nice if people who are ignorant of a subject would not abuse bandwidth with paranoid ramblings. If you are for some reason afraid of crypto currency that is fine, there were people afraid of the horseless carriage. It is not necessary to diss something you know absolutely nothing about. As the titlr of a PP video said " the media is failing us" . If all you know about Cryptocurrency comes from the MSM then you are completely ignorant. Okay the rant part is over.

    Is the threat to Crypto from QC real? Yes. Is it immediate ? No Are there ways of dealing with it? Yes. The following vids by Andreas Antonopolous goes a long way to explaining QC and Crypto.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wlzJyp3Qm7s

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eo7mwcsUbdo

    Here are a couple of articles to explain it further.

    https://cointelegraph.com/explained/how-the-crypto-world-is-preparing-for-quantum-computing-explained

    https://www.coindesk.com/what-googles-quantum-supremacy-means-for-the-future-of-cryptocurrency

    Okay suffice it to say that a major premise of this site is that the next 20 years will be very different than the last 20 years. Now that is a fact which can actually be applied to any 20 - 40 year period. But the sense most seem to derive is "OMG the last 20 years were pretty good the next 20 years are going to be worse" I should buy gold and silver, get land, grow food, get guns, hunker down for the Hunger Games. That is a paradigm but it is one of billions of paradigms. Your behavior is based on your belief system.

    The year 2010 saw the very first purchase with BTC, It was 2 Papa Johns pizzas for 10,000 BTC . If Papa John had kept those BTC they would be worth $117,000,000 today.Now somebody recently told me here that they did not get involved with Crypto because they were "practical" Now if someone were practical in 2010 they would have scarfed up as much BTC as humanly possible. Okay it was a very small subset of humanity that even knew about BTC at the time. In 2010 the "practical" people were buying gold and silver. That is one paradigm. In 2012 one could have bought BTC for $10. The point is yes the next 20 years is going to be different but is it going to be 20 years of scarcity or abundance? It is your choice based on your belief system. The next 20 years just as every next 20 years is going to require you to be flexible, and nimble. It is going to require you to think outside the box. It is going to require you to be psychedelic.

    The crypto space is evolving everyday. The advent of DEFI has reopened the possibility of our own financial system devoid of banksters. Now who here would not find that refreshing? Is that not a next 20 years worth inheriting? Is that not a future worth pledging your wealth and honor for? As Thomas Jefferson said "Banks are more dangerous than standing armies". How about we get rid of the fuckers.

    DEFI is P2P no middle man. It is overlaying "traditional" financial services on Crypto. You can lend and earn interest. Another way to earn is. through staking For ex. you can buy Tezos (which I recommended on these pages 3 years ago when they were .36 ea. ) put them on an exchange like Coinbase and earn 5%. Now that does not sound like a lot but it compounds and what are you getting on your savings accts. and CD's? You also earn whatever appreciation accrues Tezos is now $3.66 in three years.

    So the question is this. Is it practical to stay locked into a paradigm and belief system or is it better to explore other paradigms and think outside the box? Your choice determines what YOUR next 20 years is going to look like.

    Another question is "Am I too late to the party" My answer is no. This is a very young space. From my vantage point it looks like we will soon have a breakout that will eclipse what happened 2 years ago.

    Caveat I am not offering any financial advice and it is always good to remember "past performance is no guarantee of future results". It is a very volatile space and some people do not have the stomach for it. No problem but it is worth exploring on any number of levels.

    Now to get back to QC and Crypto. There are no "lost " BTC. Thanks to the magic of QC every BTC "lost" will be found. It won't be the original owner but that is tough luck. If you had a shoe box with $ 100, 000 in Ben Franklins on top of your car and took off down the road and never saw them again, that would be tough luck for you but not the person that found it. (It happened to a friend of mine. Don't ask)

    The threat of QC has been around for years. The people working in the crypto space are some of the brightest and most creative people in IT. They have been working on Quantum resistant protocols for awhile.

    I find it odd that this site has virtually ignored an asset now worth $11,700. It often gets disparaged with as much misinformation as HCQ. It is never mentioned in the daily market report yet is one of the most amazing developments of the last 10 years. I offered months ago to arrange a podcast interview with Brian Armstrong and did  not get so much as a polite no. Andreas would be an excellent candidate as well to dispel the misinformation.

    So I do wish you all well and hope your next 20 years is kind to you

     

     

     

     

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  • Tue, Aug 25, 2020 - 12:48am

    #53
    Sparky1

    Sparky1

    Status: Bronze Member

    Joined: Jul 21 2016

    Posts: 753

    2

    Adam, what are the protocols and timelines for returning members' post-moderator review?

    AKGrannyWithGrit said,

     Unfortunately, I am locked out of my Personal Messaging and also prohibited from posting to forums.

    Adam, IMO it seems unnecessarily harsh to block returning PP members from being able to communicate privately via PMs upon having served their "probationary period" (how long is that?) under moderator review. I also don't understand the rationale for preventing a returning PP member from posting on the Forums, which generally  receive less PP "traffic" and tend to encompass more topically focused discussions in an "enter at your own risk" zone. Is there a description on the PP site of the step-wise process for removing then reinstating a PP member's posting privileges? The process and timelines seem rather vague and subjective. Thanks in advance for clarifying PP's policies in this regard.

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  • Tue, Aug 25, 2020 - 1:49pm

    Mohammed Mast

    Mohammed Mast

    Status: Gold Member

    Joined: May 17 2017

    Posts: 1211

    1

    With all due Respect

    Lee Camp is a fucking idiot.

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  • Tue, Aug 25, 2020 - 2:23pm

    Quercus bicolor

    Status: Silver Member

    Joined: Mar 19 2008

    Posts: 505

    1

    Quercus bicolor said:

    Lee Camp is a fucking idiot.

    Would you care to elaborate on why you assert this, Mohammed?

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  • Tue, Aug 25, 2020 - 3:54pm

    Mots

    Mots

    Status: Bronze Member

    Joined: Jun 18 2012

    Posts: 342

    0

    Mohammed

    "Lee Camp is a fucking idiot."

    Mohammed, please could you explain the "idiot" part of your conclusion?  I normally agree with your postings but this one has me scratching my head.  I find Lee Camp hilarious and agree with others that he may be the next George Carlin.  I dont know if he would be a suitable interviewee however because his patter would be punctuated in F words and related symbolisms.  But wait, it seems that the F word is acceptable here......

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  • Tue, Aug 25, 2020 - 4:58pm

    000

    Status: Bronze Member

    Joined: Dec 10 2013

    Posts: 315

    1

    BTC Must for Beginners and Dabblers

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  • Tue, Aug 25, 2020 - 6:08pm

    #58
    Mohammed Mast

    Mohammed Mast

    Status: Gold Member

    Joined: May 17 2017

    Posts: 1211

    1

    Lee Camp is an Idiot

    I will be happy to explain but first, have  the persons asking actually watched the video?

    he is an idiot because the entire global economy runs on fossil fuels. Now that should be enough right there to verify my assertion. He gleefully celebrates what he erroneously considers the end of big oil and gas. So the poeple asking the question are celebrating with him?

    Clearly it is not the end of oil and gas and it is not the end of big oil companies. 6 out of every 7 people on this planet at the moment would not be here if not for fossil fuels. None of us would be typing on a computer if not for fossil fuels. 3/4 of the world would be starving w/o fossil fuels . You would not have bypass surgery w/o fossil fuels. You would not own gold and silver w/o fossil fuels. There would be no solar panels or huge electric generating windmills w/o fossil fuels. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc.

    It is very chic in liberal progressive, democrat, socialist, circles to hate big oil. That is because they are to stupid to realize not only their standard of living but their very existence is reliant on big oil. The internet is now full of bleeding heart liberals moaning and groaning about the democrats not wanting to get rid of fossil fuels subsidies. They are too stupid to realize if you eliminate those subsidies the people who will get hurt are the poor. The low income heating program is a fossil fuel subsidy. The fuel subsidy for farmers will drive up the price of food.

    As if that isn't enough brain dead liberals who think Lee Camp is intelligent think some solar panels and windmills will power the economy. There is nothing that is nothing at the moment that can take the place of the energy slaves of fossil fuels. TIME SCALE COST. Now where have I heard that before.

    So I will amend my statement Lee Camp is a stupid fucking idiot. Ps That video adds nothing to the conversation about energy.

    God I can't believe I just wasted 10 minutes of my own energy on that twit. But it was out of respect for 2 members I hold in high regard

     

     

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  • Tue, Aug 25, 2020 - 8:11pm

    Mots

    Mots

    Status: Bronze Member

    Joined: Jun 18 2012

    Posts: 342

    1

    Lee Camp

    Thank you Mohammed
    But looking at the big picture, since we are just arm chair hypothesizing anyway.....
    1. assuming that high CO2 production is destroying the oceans (increased the acidity by 100 percent (0.3 pH units) so far) and making it so hot that ocean levels will rise some meters and eliminate places like Florida and New Jersey
    2. assuming that we are destroying nature at such a rate that even a large proportion of insects are dying.

    3. if 1 and 2 (and related) facts are true, then why not "go there" in terms of decreasing the population of the world by starting to turn off the oil spikot and going back a step or two in conveniences.  Wouldnt we  be better on the long run?  Decreasing population and decreasing conveniences of people is not the end of the world.  I can think of worse things, like full scale nuclear war, or a planet having an ocean with 0.9 decreased pH and ocean levels that are 50 meters higher than they are now.  If we contemplate and discuss and consider and keyboard chit chat crap and listen to comedians talk about the damage we are causing, then why cant we talk about the main solution that we can, namely decreased population and severely decreased Americanized lifestyle?  By the way, it is reassuring that most of the planet is enjoying a greater standard of living the last few years and that the number of human beings entering the "middle class" is far higher than the number of Americans that have been pushed into poverty.  Just looking at the big picture ............
    The alternative view is that it is fine for everyone on the planet to burn up coal, oil and natural gas.  Or maybe your view is that the dire predictions of disaster (which are worse than a modest (to start) population decrease and giving up conveniences of American life) are incorrect and will not come to pass.  If those predictions are incorrect then I agree with you that we should not do anything that might decrease population or ruin the American lifestyle.

    I dont have a dog in this fight because I left America and have somewhat different expectations.  It is very interesting to see what it is like to live in a country that is dropping in population fairly rapidly, where a large percentage of the electricity can be shut down (post Fukushima) for a few months, without any blackouts or brownouts.
    There are many possible outcomes that are not being considered.
    I have some optimistic observations on using solar electric.  Many of the criticisms of solar are incorrect or can be maneuvered around via behavior change. I have written on this topic but no one is interested in my experience-based results.  But the discussion is always "what can we do to maintain the American lifestyle?"
    If we can answer this question with "nothing" then perhaps we  can move on with real problem solving such as strategies to muddle through or limit the fall down.
    Lol didnt mean to write so long.  I enjoy your comments thank you again.

     

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  • Wed, Aug 26, 2020 - 6:55am

    Mohammed Mast

    Mohammed Mast

    Status: Gold Member

    Joined: May 17 2017

    Posts: 1211

    0

    Mots

    Solar is/will be part of the mix but does not exist w/o oil and gas. Solar and wind will not power an Amerikaan lifestyle not that I am in favor of such. I have lived in various places in the world so I do not have an Amerikaan centric view.

    I suggest you be careful what you ask for. The absence of "big oil" with nothing to replace it would be cataclysmic for billions. There is nothing at the moment to replace it. I will assume the community you are building is doing so with the benefit of fossil fuels. If you are doing it w/o good onya and I wonder how you do it with stone implements. lol

    Twits like Lee Camp have no clue of what they are talking about.

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  • Wed, Aug 26, 2020 - 7:34am

    Mots

    Mots

    Status: Bronze Member

    Joined: Jun 18 2012

    Posts: 342

    0

    Mohammed

    Mohammed
    Desire for a particular life style, being careful, wishing for something, comments about one's community using stone tools etc are kind of irrelevant to the points I am trying to make.

    1. Is it possible to continue the American life style?  How about for all people on the planet?
    I am curious.  What is your vote or expectation?  Yes? or No? (or maybe dont know)
    I honestly would like to cipher an answer to this question.

    2. is the world in serious dire straits due to massive oxidation of carbon, leading to a doubling of acid in the ocean (so far) and a continuing large increase in atmospheric oxygen and the expected deluge, not to mention extreme destruction of habitat?
    Yes, or No,  what is your vote?  (or maybe dont know?)
    If yes, what is the solution?  Is there another solution besides  a massive decrease in carbon oxidation coupled with massive decrease in population, perhaps by simply not having babies?

    My study of energy transitions show that earlier energy sources dont suddenly vanish.  For example, the world per capita coal use plateaued when we entered the oil age.  No one expects oil use to suddenly and dramatically  drop, expect perhaps in America after the demise of the oil dollar.

    I honestly dont have an opinion on this notion of sudden stopping of oil use.  I suspect that oil use will plummet in the US regardless of any conscious decision making and I really think that China will replace the US as the main consumer, regardless of any conscious decision making in the West.  I think it is important to focus our time and energy on our own neighborhoods and would like to know what others are doing to increase their energy production locally.

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  • Wed, Aug 26, 2020 - 5:54pm

    #62
    Mots

    Mots

    Status: Bronze Member

    Joined: Jun 18 2012

    Posts: 342

    0

    Mohammed said: Solar is/will be part of the mix but does not exist w/o oil and gas.

    No one (in their right mind anyway) seriously thinks that oil and gas will or should disappear completely.

    Below is a per capita energy history for coal, oil and gas.  After the oil age kicked in, the use of coal leveled off.  Did not disappear. I note in passing that 1. most energy used by industrial processes is heat or movement and can easily be changed from fossil fuel input into electrical.  In most cases electrical inputs are preferred but not used because natural gas is too cheap.  I have two examples from two different industries based on manufacturing clients I have had.  2. many if not most processes can be adjusted to slow down or self schedule according to a variable energy input.  There are already examples in the aluminum smelting industry and other mining/processing industries.  People have no appreciation for how much of industry is electrical or could be: 86 percent of our new steel is RECYCLED from old steel, not by using oil or gas, but by using electricity (think of gigantic carbon rod about 3 feet diameter 30 feet long zapping a cauldron of cold recycled iron until it gets molted).  Both the machinery to move and sort the starting material and the energy to do the steel making is basically electrical.  Many industrial processes can be modulated (turned up or decreased) according to fluctuations in electricity supply (or price)>
    It is helpful to talk to engineers with experience in manufacturing before condemning solar electric as not meeting the demands of modern industry.  In most cases the majority of energy intensive processes (including melting rock to make solar panels) is already done with electricity or will be (electricity is preferred actually because of control convenience) after the price of lower electricity kicks in.per-capita-world-energy-by-source

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  • Wed, Aug 26, 2020 - 7:49pm

    #63
    Mohammed Mast

    Mohammed Mast

    Status: Gold Member

    Joined: May 17 2017

    Posts: 1211

    1

    Mots

    I have no desire to debate either the pros and cons of solar, wind, pedal power. My experience tells me that everyone in the world wants to live like an Amerikaan. They would like a smart phone, computer, car, nice home, 2 cats in the yard (not that everyone in the US lives a middle class lifestyle.

    I do not give a rats ass about so called climate change. The climate has been changing for 4 billion years. Life has a rule "adapt or perish". Every molecule  of hydrocarbon that can be extracted and utilized feasibly  will be. That is a fact. 7.5+ humans demand such. I don't waste too much of my time worrying about things I have no control over. People have been complaining about the weather for as long as there have been people. It has never changed it.

    But if you were God what would you do about climate change? Are you or anyone you know brilliant enough to determine what the climate all over the planet "should "be?

    I wish you well in your endeavors

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  • Thu, Aug 27, 2020 - 3:09pm

    #64

    000

    Status: Bronze Member

    Joined: Dec 10 2013

    Posts: 315

    0

    Gold Investing: One Step Removed, well maybe two...

    A Band of Illegal Gold Miners Have Completely Destroyed an Ancient Kush Settlement in Sudan

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