Investing in precious metals 101
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    Money Under Fire

    A reminder of the great wealth transfer underway
    by Chris Martenson

    Monday, December 12, 2016, 3:21 PM

Today we welcome a cohort of new readers visiting PeakProsperity.com for the first time. This article is to give them our best grounding in the massive wealth transfer underway.

Our hope is that our longtime readers will likely benefit from a revisitation of the fundamentals, as well.

One serious predicament we face is that the current leaders in the halls of monetary and political power do not appear to understand the dimensions of our situation. The mind-boggling part about it is that the situation is easy to understand.

Our collective predicament is simply this: Nothing can grow forever.

Sooner or later, everything must cease growing, or it will exhaust its environs and thereby destroy itself.  The Fed is busy doing everything in its considerable power to get credit (that is, debt) growing again so that we can get back to what it considers to be "normal."

But the problem is or the predicament, I should more accurately say is that the recent past was not normal.  You've probably all seen this next chart.  It shows total debt in the U.S. as a percent of GDP:


(Source)

Somewhere right around 1980, things really changed, and debt began climbing far faster than GDP. And that, right there, is the long and the short of why any attempt to continue the behavior that got us to this point is certain to fail.

It is simply not possible to grow your debts faster than your income forever. However, that's been the practice since 1980, and every current politician and Federal Reserve official developed their opinions about 'how the world works' during the 33-year period between 1980 and 2013.

Put bluntly, they want to get us back on that same track, and as soon as possible. The reason?  Because every major power center, be that in D.C. or on Wall Street, tuned their thinking, systems, and sense of entitlement during that period. And, frankly, a huge number of financial firms and political careers will melt away if/when that credit expansion finally stops.

And stop it will; that's just a mathematical certainty. It's now extremely doubtful that the Fed or D.C. will willingly cease the current Herculean efforts towards reviving this flawed practice of borrowing too much, too fast. So we have to expect that it will be some form of financial accident that finally breaks the stranglehold of failed thinking that infects current leadership.

The Math

As a thought experiment, let's explore the math a little bit to see where it leads us. After all, I did just say that a poor end to all of this is a "mathematical certainty," so let's test that theory a bit. I think you'll find this both interesting and useful.

To begin, Total Credit Market Debt (TCMD) is a measure of all the various forms of debt in the U.S. That includes corporate, state, federal, and household borrowing.  So student loans are in there, as are auto loans, mortgages, and municipal and federal debt. It's pretty much everything debt-related.

What it does not include, though, are any unfunded obligations, entitlements, or other types of liabilities. So the Social Security shortfalls are not in there, nor are the underfunded pensions at the state or corporate levels. TCMD is just debt, plain and simple.

As you can see in this next chart, since 1970, TCMD has been growing exponentially and almost perfectly, too. (The R2 is over 0.99, for you science types):

I've pointed out the tiny little wiggle that happened in 2008-2009, which apparently nearly brought down the entire global financial system. That little deviation was practically too much all on its own. 

Now debts are climbing again at a quite nice pace. That's mainly due to the Fed monetizing U.S. federal debt just to keep things patched together.

As an aside, based on this chart, we'd expect the Fed to not end their QE efforts until and unless households and corporations once more engage in robust borrowing. The system apparently 'needs' this chart to keep growing exponentially, or it risks collapse.

Okay, one could ask: Why can't credit just keep growing? 

Here's where things get a little wonky. But if you'll bear with me, you'll see why I'm nearly 100% certain that the future will not resemble the past.

Let's start in 1980, when credit growth really took off. This period also happens to be the happy time that the Fed is trying to (desperately) recreate.

Between 1980 and 2013, total credit grew by an astonishing 8% per year, compounded. I say 'astonishing' because anything growing by 8% per year will fully double every 9 years.

So let's run the math experiment as ask what will happen if the Fed is successful and total credit grows for the next 30 years at exactly the same rate it did over the prior 30. That's all. Nothing fancy, simply the same rate of growth that everybody got accustomed to while they were figuring out 'how the world works.'

What happens to the current $57 trillion in TCMD as it advances by 8% per year for 30 years?  It mushrooms into a silly number: $573 trillion. That is, an 8% growth paradigm gives us a tenfold increase in total credit in just thirty years:  

For perspective, the GDP of the entire globe was just $85 trillion in 2012. Even if we advance global GDP by some hefty number, like 4% per year for the next 30 years, under an 8% growth regime, U.S. credit would be twice as large as global GDP in 2043 (!)

If that comparison didn't do it for you, then just ask yourself: Why, exactly, would U.S. corporations, households, and government borrow more than $500 trillion over the next 30 years? The total mortgage market is currently $10 trillion, so might the plan include developing an additional 50 more U.S. residential real estate markets?

More seriously, can you think of anything that could support borrowing that much money? I can't.

So perhaps the situation moderates a bit, and instead of growing at 8%, credit market debt grows at just half that rate. So what happens if credit just grows by 4% per year? 

That gets us to $185 trillion, or another $128 trillion higher than today a more than 3x increase:

Again, What might we borrow (only) $128 trillion for, over the next 30 years? 

When I run these numbers, I am entirely confident that the rate of growth in debt between 1980 and 2013 will not be recreated between 2013 and 2043. With just one caveat: I've been assuming that dollars remain valuable. If dollars were to lose 90% or more of their value (say, perhaps due to our central bank creating too many of them?), then it's entirely possible to achieve any sorts of fantastical numbers one wishes to see.

Think it could never happen?

The Case For Hard Assets

This is the critical takeaway from all of the math above: For the Fed to achieve anything even close to the historical rate of credit growth, the dollar will have to lose a tremendous amount of its purchasing power. I truly believe this is the Fed's grand plan, if we may call it that, and it has nothing to do with what's best for the people of this land. Instead, it's entirely about keeping the financial system primed with sufficient new credit to prevent it from imploding.

That is, the Fed is beholden to a broken system; not anything noble.

GDP growth is very unlikely to support the rate of credit expansion that the Federal Reserve wants (or, more accurately, needs). And what will happen if it indeed doesn't? A lot of painful, awful things but central among them is a currency crisis.

Amidst the ensuing unpleasantness will be an awakening within today's hyper-financialized markets to the huge imbalance now existing between paper claims and ownership of real things. A massive wealth transfer from those with 'paper wealth' (stocks, bonds, dollars) to those owning tangible assets (the productive value of which can't easily be inflated away) will occur and quickly, too.

Suggesting the key objective for today's investor is answering: How do I make sure I'm on the right side of that wealth transfer?

An important component of that answer is holding some of your financial wealth in hard assets (they value of which can't be inflated away), the precious metals (e..g, gold and silver) being most easy for investors to easily obtain.

There's a preponderance of data that shows the world's major asset markets are dangerously overvalued. And when these asset bubbles start to burst, the 'save haven' markets — like gold and silver — that investment capital will try to flee to are ridiculously small. Investors who do not start moving their capital in advance of crisis will be forced to pay much higher prices for safety — or may find they can't get into these haven assets at any price:

In Part 2: Using Gold to Protect Yourself In Advance of the Greatest Wealth Transfer of Our Lifetime we detail out the specifics of how much of your net worth to consider investing in gold, in what forms to hold it, which price targets are gold and silver most likely to reach, and which eventual indicators to look for that will signal that it's time to sell out of your precious metal investments.

The battle to keep gold's price in check is truly one for the ages. Not because gold deserves such treatment per se, but because the alternative is for the world's central planners to admit that they've poorly managed an ill-designed monetary system of their own creation — which they'll avoid at any cost.

Click here to read Part 2 of this report (free executive summary, enrollment required for full access)

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133 Comments

  • Mon, Dec 12, 2016 - 4:37pm

    #1

    Chris Martenson

    Status Platinum Member (Offline)

    Joined: Jun 07 2007

    Posts: 4635

    The Weimar Hyperinflation

    On the Glenn Beck program today, I was asked if we'd experience a Weimar hyperinflation here in the US?

    I said it's possible, but I'd like to provide a bit more context here.

    The Weimar hyperinflation saw the value of a German Mark plummet from 90 to the dollar in June of 1922 to over 4.2 trillion (with a "t") marks to the dollar by November 1923.

    Ouch!

    The German hyperinflation is the one people talk about because there are so many images (wheelbarrows of cash, woman burning notes in her furnace because that was cheaper than buying wood) but it wasn't the worst in history.

    Germany's Weimar hyperinflation clocked out at 3.2 million percent.

    Greece between 1943 and 1944 clocked out at 8.55 billion percent!  Now that's far worse than the Weimar experience.

    But still not the worst.

    That distinction (so far) belongs to Yugoslavia between Oct 1993 and Jan 1995 where prices advanced by a dizzying 5 quadrillion percent.  That's 5 x 10^15, or a 5 followed by 15 zeros.

    I cannot even conceive of a number that large so I cannot help you internalize it any better.  

     

     

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  • Mon, Dec 12, 2016 - 4:51pm

    Reply to #1
    Yoxa

    Yoxa

    Status Silver Member (Offline)

    Joined: Dec 20 2011

    Posts: 286

    Dizzying, indeed!

    >> where prices advanced by a dizzying 5 quadrillion percent

    That makes me want to go shopping while my money is still worth something! cheeky

     

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  • Mon, Dec 12, 2016 - 6:14pm

    Reply to #1

    Snydeman

    Status Member (Offline)

    Joined: Feb 06 2013

    Posts: 505

    Sheesh!

    [quote=cmartenson]

    On the Glenn Beck program today, I was asked if we'd experience a Weimar hyperinflation here in the US?

    I said it's possible, but I'd like to provide a bit more context here.

    The Weimar hyperinflation saw the value of a German Mark plummet from 90 to the dollar in June of 1922 to over 4.2 trillion (with a "t") marks to the dollar by November 1923.

    Ouch!

    The German hyperinflation is the one people talk about because there are so many images (wheelbarrows of cash, woman burning notes in her furnace because that was cheaper than buying wood) but it wasn't the worst in history.

    Germany's Weimar hyperinflation clocked out at 3.2 million percent.

    Greece between 1943 and 1944 clocked out at 8.55 billion percent!  Now that's far worse than the Weimar experience.

    But still not the worst.

    That distinction (so far) belongs to Yugoslavia between Oct 1993 and Jan 1995 where prices advanced by a dizzying 5 quadrillion percent.  That's 5 x 10^15, or a 5 followed by 15 zeros.

    I cannot even conceive of a number that large so I cannot help you internalize it any better.  

     

     

    [/quote]

     

    How many times to the moon and back would that be?

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  • Mon, Dec 12, 2016 - 6:18pm

    #2
    climber99

    climber99

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    Posts: 179

    I'm trying to think 'out the box' a little

    I'm trying to think 'out the box' a little here.  Maybe someone can help me flesh it out a little.  One idea I am exploring is investing in renewable energy generation capacity.  That is, to invest today's money value in an asset which will produce income in the future.  My thinking being that energy is a finite resource and so will retain it's relative purchasing power.

    Not heard anyone advocate this approach but there again no one does if it's a really good idea; they keep it quiet for themselves initially.  Anyone out there with any experience (positive or negative) who is willing to share it?

    Risks – there are always risks.  1. Fossil fuels undercutting renewable if subsidies are removed or if there is a recession that crashes energy demand.

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  • Mon, Dec 12, 2016 - 6:45pm

    Reply to #2

    Snydeman

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    Joined: Feb 06 2013

    Posts: 505

    Good...

    Good question there. I'm also wondering what the new administration's policy will be regarding tax credits for homeowners who invest in solar power, since that seems to have spurred demand some.

     

    As for whether to get them as a future resource, I'm dubious and uncertain of its value. Given that such a system must be maintained and fixed, especially the batteries, purchasing such a system would greatly depend on the level of collapse we are anticipating. If the financial system and economy collapse, but society remains relatively stable (unlikely, in my mind), then yes it could be leveraged in the future and be a valuable asset. Yet that could also mark you as a target, too, especially from any "feudal authority" that might inevitably arise in your locality, which would seek to claim it for the benefit of the masses and all that. If collapse is more total, drawn out, and violent, then would there be a way to even maintain such a system in ten or fifteen years, or would those resources/components/know-how be lost already in the chaos? In a world of devices without power, would we just shift back into a previous age of technology such that your solar power would essentially go to waste anyway?

     

    I'm glad to answer your question with more questions, and thus say nothing approaching a solution. It's an art form, really.

     

    In all seriousness, my wife and I are pondering this same question. Is it worth investing in alternate energy sources that would require upkeep if we are worried about collapse? But if we don't invest in such technology, we are part of the overall energy problem and not its (partial) solution.

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  • Mon, Dec 12, 2016 - 7:08pm

    #3

    sand_puppy

    Status Platinum Member (Online)

    Joined: Apr 13 2011

    Posts: 1911

    A very simple solar back up system

    Snydeman,

    A small solar panel array with inverter could power a washing machine, table saw or an electric drill during sunlight hours (on sunny days).  Small enough to be folded up and taken inside at night to reduce theft.

    This kind of system, if stocked with several replacement inverters, might last a generation or more.

    Mots and a couple of others described a woodshop set up like this. 

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  • Mon, Dec 12, 2016 - 7:10pm

    #4

    Oliveoilguy

    Status Silver Member (Offline)

    Joined: Jun 29 2012

    Posts: 521

    Venezuela currency recall

    News story just broke that they are calling in large currency notes. Each note is worth 2 cents US.  The amount of money in question is 6 million dollars. Did I hear this right?  Can't believe a government would take that action for such a small sum.

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  • Mon, Dec 12, 2016 - 8:11pm

    Reply to #3

    Mots

    Status Bronze Member (Offline)

    Joined: Jun 18 2012

    Posts: 67

    "A very simple solar back up system"

    This elaborates on Sand Puppy's helpful  comment above……..

    An electric drill (solid state switched) will run directly off of 200 watts solar (full sun) without ANY inverter if the voltage is high enough (wirepanels in  series, drill will go slower if  less than 100 V).  If it has a mechanical switch, the switch contacts will melt on DC (unless  you use my pulsed DC product).
    An IH stove (these are solid  state  switched) will run directly off of 2-3 (or even 4 if larger size) 200 watt panels  (connected in series to sum up to 80-150 volts typically) in full sun without  ANY invertor.  I just connect 120V DC connected panels to my cheap 60$ small  induction stove without any other equipment such as an inverter.
    A vacuum  cleaner (and presumably table saw) works better on an inverter because  the mechanical switch will melt its contacts when switching DC  (unless you buy my product which pulses the DC).  however you probably will need at least 4 200-watt panels  in full sunlight.  If you can turn on/off the vacuum cleaner or table saw WITHOUT opening/closing switch contacts (leave on but just plugin/unplug and deal with a very big DC spark when doing so) then you can use on about 4-5 panels full sun WITHOUT an inverter.
    The  washing machine is most certainly an  AC motor  and requires much power, so likely will need an expensive (2000W or more rating due to start up impulse) inverter plus many panels maybe at least 1000 watts worth (full sun).  I would use a mechanical washer  if you are worried about power outage (and not long term).  Or get a DC motor type (most likely will be developed since all motors are evolving toward DC and away from AC).

    DC is the future.

    Mots  

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  • Mon, Dec 12, 2016 - 8:30pm

    Reply to #3

    Snydeman

    Status Member (Offline)

    Joined: Feb 06 2013

    Posts: 505

    Hmm

    [quote=sand_puppy]

    Snydeman,

    A small solar panel array with inverter could power a washing machine, table saw or an electric drill during sunlight hours (on sunny days).  Small enough to be folded up and taken inside at night to reduce theft.

    This kind of system, if stocked with several replacement inverters, might last a generation or more.

    Mots and a couple of others described a woodshop set up like this. 

    [/quote]

     

    Excellent idea, and cost-available. I had only been thinking of big roof-top solar panels, which would be like a billboard sign that says "I have power right here." I wonder, what would everyone prioritize in terms of powered objects in a post-collapse world?

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  • Mon, Dec 12, 2016 - 11:25pm

    Reply to #3

    blackeagle

    Status Bronze Member (Offline)

    Joined: May 16 2013

    Posts: 225

    I bet a pack of six!

    How many people will seriously look at some "boring" solar panels to provide power to a small washer on sunny days only, versus be amazed by this? (and of course, purchase one!)

    I bet that very very very few… Unfortunately there is nothing sexy for most of the folks out there in tinkering with solar panels, DC/AC motors, switches, etc…. instead Alexa is like a magnet: HER attractiveness and glamor are unbeatable.

    In summer 2015, I installed in my backyard a solar panel (230W), a small charge controller, a small 12V battery (3Ah), a tracking controller and a 18'' linear actuator. After one year, here are the results: 

    – The wind ripped-out the panel twice (My support was not strong enough).

    – The panel got scratched from the back up to the protective glass. Still working. So the loss of two cells is not catastrophic as long as the bus bar is intact.

    – The linear actuator seems to be a loss. Not working anymore. I opened it and all the grease is as solid as wax. I will dismantle it completely to find out exactly what is wrong (motor? screw? gears?).

    – What need to be done is to measure real power output. I already purchased power meter and small inverter, but did not wire them yet.

    First conclusion:

    – Better to have a fixed installation. the 25% gain of a sun tracking installation does not offset the cost of maintenance.

     

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  • Tue, Dec 13, 2016 - 12:57am

    #5

    lambertad

    Status Bronze Member (Offline)

    Joined: Aug 31 2013

    Posts: 179

    water, heating, cooking, transportation?

    I would prioritize my solar needs as – Can I pump water out of the ground for drinking, bathing, and possibly gardening? Solar DC or AC pumps can do this. 

    Second, do I have a way to heat water (Solar thermal is close to 5x as efficient as solar PV), so can I heat water and potentially can I use the heated water for space heating. Even if you live in a climate where it gets cold in the winter time, you likely have extra heat generation from solar thermal in the summer. If you can store that heat, in say 10 55 gallon drums that are insulated in a large plywood storage area, then you have several tons of hot (up to 140 degrees or better) water come winter that should last at least a couple of months into the winter. Not to mention, if you build your solar collector properly oriented and at the rigth angle, you can generate heat all winter to help keep this stored hot water warm. You can DIY this stuff as well – Here and Here are just 2 examples. Also, spending money on insulating your house would be wise here. 

    Third, can I "cook" my food with solar? Well, a solar oven would do, but so would a DIY solar food dehydrator. I could dry all my zucchini, squash, strawberries, peaches, blueberries, etc. instead of using wood or FFs to heat water for canning. However, in the fall come harvest time, it may be nice to have a nice wood cookstove warming the house while I can my harvest. Video for an incredibly simple dehydrator that can be modified to be 2-3 times as deep to accommodate more trays. 

    I don't know that much about motors and DC/AC, but how often do you run a circular saw or a drill press? In the future, probably more often as you fabricate tools instead of purchasing the Chinese kind from the big box store, but a lot of that can be accomplished using a generator. Unless you're welding something, you can flip the generator on for a minute or two, make your cuts, and turn it off. Using it like that should allow a gallon of fuel to last for several weeks probably. I guess that's just the way I look at things. 

    Lastly, look for screaming deals on electric vehicles while you can. Having a solar electric array of decent size should allow you to charge a solar vehicle for short travel situations (the 2017 leaf is rated to get 107 miles per charge). Our local University had a deal that I found out about this fall that is now expired, but next fall they will have brand new Nissan Leafs for $14,000 after Federal, State, and University rebates. That's a $32,000 car for about 60% off! This article says you can buy a 2-3 year old Nissan leaf for less than $7,000. 

    As a side note, I think a lot depends on where you live. If you live in the country, you can put in a ground mount array and then build a 6 foot wooden fence around it and only the people who installed it would know it's there. Not to mention, they're easier to clean in the winter, you can make sure they are oriented at 180 degrees, and the proper angle for best annual production. If you live in a city or suburb, you may be able to do the ground mount, but it would be more constrained. I love our solar array, but it's on the roof and I don't clean it in winter time so production suffers there. However, I'd rather have less solar and and no broken bones. Also, our angle is dictated by roof angle, and not by ideal angle which at our latitude would be about 45 degrees. 

    Those are just my thoughts, hope it helps. 

     

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  • Tue, Dec 13, 2016 - 1:13am

    #6
    robie robinson

    robie robinson

    Status Gold Member (Offline)

    Joined: Aug 25 2009

    Posts: 868

    19th century

    Till yawl are equipped and ready to live in the century before last, get ready to go hungry.

     

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  • Tue, Dec 13, 2016 - 1:15am

    #7
    robie robinson

    robie robinson

    Status Gold Member (Offline)

    Joined: Aug 25 2009

    Posts: 868

    19th century

    might be sustainable. Quinn is 690lbs and 13.3 at 20 mos. A ready and willing worker.

     

     

     

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  • Tue, Dec 13, 2016 - 1:54am

    #8

    Mots

    Status Bronze Member (Offline)

    Joined: Jun 18 2012

    Posts: 67

    Water, Heating, Cooking, Transportation?

    interesting dialogue

    Here are some facts that might affect some conclusions:
    1. you cant hide your  solar panels.  My panels are easily visible from space based cameras now and anyone who wants to know anything about me can see my panels and my house and car etc:(resolution is good enough to count the solar panels) https://www.google.co.jp/maps/place/Kamijima,+Ochi+District,+Ehime+Prefecture/@34.2412438,133.2014379,295a,20y,45t/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x3551add73cf786a3:0xc6d28aa666141b4!8m2!3d34.2513282!4d133.193779!6m1!1e1?hl=en
    2. solar panels are extremely cheap and getting cheaper (energy and materials used to manufacture continue to drop, in contradiction to CMs frequent arguments against solar as primary energy and pro-globalism (cant live without government deity saving us with government energy research) teachings.  Solar panels already are the lowest cost part of a system (batteries are highest, and inverters/controllers which seem to burn out every 3 years on average often cost more as well).  That guy who covets your panel can buy 1000 watts of panels for the price of a gun or a few hundred watts foro a years worth of target practice so what's the point.  Just the labor to steal a panel without breaking it (this takes time and carefullness, neither in great supply to a dense and lazy thief) is enough of a deterrent in my opinion.
    3. cheap generic solar panels (like the kind manufactured in generic plants like the generic solar manufacturing turn key plants that my local company is exporting to 3rd world countries) are only about 15-18% efficient but their energy is piped around as needed (like into your floor, or hot water) at virtually 100% efficiency) whereas solar hot water often actually costs more for the equipment and has mechanical moving parts that break and leak and get cold in the winter. Solar thermal cannot be shared with your neighbors or be fed into a grid, unlike the very low cost electricity from solar electric.

    The biggest surprise to me with solar electric is the ability to DIRECTLY connect (without a CONVERTER OR ANYTHING except wires) to a computer charger/printer/cell phone and most battery chargers (that dont rely on old fashioned transformers) as well as Induction Stoves and small motors (electric drill in particular) to solar panels that are series hooked up to a maximum power point voltage of between 80-135 volts.  HP power adapters are already DC and not AC! (only use electricity flowing in one direction!) so you may have to reverse the connection to get the right polarity.  In my experience with my equipment this is entirely safe to the appliance and when i open and inspect such equipment, I find that the appliance has to go to the trouble of initially converting the undesirable AC to DC anyway before it can use it in electronic circuits.  Transistors are not 60 hertz AC devices.    

    Here is a prediction: legacy (and existing) solar panels are built from single or multi crystalline forms of silicon because of the need for ruggedness down under the tremendous heat and environmental conditions encountered.  Expect a loss in efficiency of 5% over 10 years or longer.  Expect to harvest electricity over 30 years or more with existing store bought panels.  Because of programmed obsolecence and the insistence of industry that the next product is so much better and should replace the previous for profit, ,I expect that any new and improved panels (over 20 or 25% or better efficiency) will likely be less stable and only last 5 or 10 years in part due to "advanced" but less rugged materials.  This is a main reason why I think that existing cheap panels installed on a house are  a great investment and can return benefits indefinitely.

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  • Tue, Dec 13, 2016 - 10:00am

    Reply to #1

    davefairtex

    Status Diamond Member (Offline)

    Joined: Sep 03 2008

    Posts: 3146

    hyperinflation, borrowing, and pensions

    First – do the number of zeros matter?  I say no.  A hyperinflation that results in six zeros or 15 zeros after the "1" is essentially no difference at all.  Not to the saver anyway.

    Why is that?

    The vast bulk of the loss experienced by savers is in the first factor of 10 loss.  Once you add just one zero, you've already been hit for a 90% loss.  Everything that comes next is just degrading the remaining 10%.

    The conclusion: any sort of delayed-response could be fatal.  Once you take your $1M down to $100k, getting back to $1M (of actual value) will be incredibly difficult.

    Second – Armstrong says that in his study of historical hyperinflation cases, he has only seen it happen when a nation is unable to borrow to fund its operations.  When a nation can no longer borrow, its only possible response is to print.

    So for me, my "necessary, but perhaps not sufficient" condition for a coming hyperinflation in the US will be an increasing difficulty in borrowing to fund the operations of government.  We are not there yet.  In fact, we're nowhere close.  Especially with USDX north of 100.

    Also, I do think there might be some intermediate steps involving confiscation.  Once borrowing becomes harder for the government, the pension/retirement money will probably be the likely first target, since there is so much of it out there.

    How much are we talking about?  $24 trillion, at last count.  [I had no idea].  Simply requiring all pensions to buy only US treasury bonds with any new contributions might just take care of the problem, at least temporarily anyways.

    https://www.ici.org/research/stats/retirement/ret_16_q2

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  • Tue, Dec 13, 2016 - 10:57am

    #9
    climber99

    climber99

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    Posts: 179

    Back to the topic Chris

    Back to the topic Chris discussed in the article.  GDP and debt have grown together.  Each require the other and if either one falters it affects the other. The Cornucopean view is that GDP and debt can grow without limit.  That is not my view.  My view is that GDP will follow a symmetrical bell shaped curve at best. I believe in limits to growth.  So the BIG question is what happens to debt at peak GDP and as we descend down the other side. 

    The Cornucopeans don't accept this.  For them, the faltering GDP is because there isn't enough debt. Therefore, for them, the answer is to increase debt and that GDP will inevitably follow.  What if they are wrong?  What if GDP is faltering because of more fundamental reasons, for example, due to the peaking of Net energy for fossil fuels? 

    If they are wrong and I am correct, I see not other outcome other than inflation, in the true sense of the word, in which the money supply outstrips the resource base.  In layman's terms; too much money chasing not enough resources making everything cost more.

    Overlaying this is the major problem that current capital repayments on current debt and liabilities becomes increasingly unsupportable in a declining GDP environment.  Hence we get a double whammy of currency devaluation on top of inflation.

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  • Tue, Dec 13, 2016 - 11:28am

    Reply to #1

    apismellifera

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    Posts: 33

    Yugoslavia, first-hand

    I'm fortunate enough to have seen some of the crazy side-effects of Yugoslavian inflation first-hand (2 trips there in the 1980's).   In the mid 1960's, Tito's government had devalued the Yugoslav dinar by a factor of 100. Yet, during my first trip there, in 1985, many older people, in produce markets, etc. would still quote prices in old dinars.  So the bunch of spinach labeled "30" dinars would be quoted as "3000" dinars by the farmer.  Very disorienting!  During my next trip there, in the late 1980's inflation was running at around 30% per month.  Since a lot of the stores and such were state owned, the staff didn't really care if you paid for things with a US credit card, and by the time the purchase, quoted in dinars, was converted to dollars on my bill, I'd have saved about 30% thanks to the inflation.  Coins, as money, had long ago become completely worthless, except for specific functions– the pay phones on the street only accepted those coins, so they were in pretty high demand, as a sort of single-purpose token (a perverse example of the value of "hard" assets under inflation!)

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  • Wed, Dec 14, 2016 - 4:50am

    #10

    Arthur Robey

    Status Platinum Member (Offline)

    Joined: Feb 03 2010

    Posts: 1814

    To Rob a Bank.

    The ABC in Australia is all adither and agog about eliminating the $100 note in order to well err, umm, to stop Nasty Criminals. (Yeer. That'll do.)

    This is my response to them.

    Please be aware that the so called "Black Market" is being used as a rationalization to deprive us of our freedoms, just as the "War on Terror" was/is.
     
    No. We do not choose to use $100 notes to do cashies. We hold them because we do not trust the Central Banks.
     
    Do the words "Cyprus" and "bank bail-ins" mean anything to you?
     
    Did you know that that your money in the bank is an unsecured Loan to the bank? As a loan it is the most insecure of all claims on the Bank.
     
    Did you know that the Governments of Australia and Canada, among others, were watching the Cyprus episode to see what the results of the Banks confiscation of their customers money was?
     
    They were. And they were well satisfied that these confiscations resulted in no major civil unrest and so they they wrote legislation into law to facilitate confiscation.
     
    So tell me, O Font of Wisdom, are you still advocating allowing the forced lending of your money to the Banks?
     
    My advice is to say whatever you need to in order to keep your job, but Get Your Money Out of the Banks.
     
    PS. Did you give your permission to your employer to Loan your wages to the Bank? 
    Do not. 
     
    They are liable for any money that they do not place in your hot hand. In other words if the employer loans your money to the bank and the bank does not give it to you, your action is against your employer, not against the Banks as you never received the money your employer owes you.
     
    Ref.

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  • Wed, Dec 14, 2016 - 6:50pm

    #11
    CrLaan

    CrLaan

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    Posts: 22

    price fall agriland

    http://www.agrimoney.com/feature/relief-for-land-owners—price-fall-reminiscent-of-great-depression–479.html

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  • Wed, Dec 14, 2016 - 6:56pm

    Reply to #1
    CrLaan

    CrLaan

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    Tito Yugoslavia

    there was a huge black economie with the Deutsch Mark as 'currency'

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  • Wed, Dec 14, 2016 - 8:12pm

    Reply to #1

    Snydeman

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    Posts: 505

    Cr wrote:there was a huge

    [quote=Cr]

    there was a huge black economie with the Deutsch Mark as 'currency'

    [/quote]

    ?

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  • Wed, Dec 14, 2016 - 8:24pm

    Reply to #1

    Adam Taggart

    Status Platinum Member (Offline)

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    Posts: 2572

    Other stronger currencies

    Snydeman –

    I think Cr meant that as the dinar plummeted in value, Yugoslavs turned to other, stronger, foreign currencies as a trustable means of exchange.

    A few years ago, Chris and I were at a conference that had a panel of folks, each of whom had lived through hyperinflation in either Yugoslavia, Argentina or Zimbabwe. In every case, business/trade continued within their countries, but was largely transacted using stable foreign currencies — most commonly the US dollar.

    In the case of Yugoslavia back in the early 1990s, German Marks (aka Deutsche Marks) — one of the most trusted currencies in the world at the time — could be easily obtained across the Austrian border.

    Substituting with superior soverign notes seems quite common in the failing currency systems that have happened so far within our lifetime. It does, though raise the spectre of the following: Where will folks turn if/when the world's "stable" currencies are no longer safe? (e.g., excessively devalued by central bank issuance in the wake of a collapsing expansion of credit )

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  • Wed, Dec 14, 2016 - 8:46pm

    Reply to #1

    Snydeman

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    Posts: 505

    Thanks!

    Thank you, Adam! I just wasn't certain what CR was referring to. Got it.

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  • Wed, Dec 14, 2016 - 10:03pm

    #12

    sand_puppy

    Status Platinum Member (Online)

    Joined: Apr 13 2011

    Posts: 1911

    Do we need to change $100 for $20?

    I'm reading about the Indian iteration of the "war on cash" insanity of banning "high denomination" cash notes (which are ONLY worth about $13!).

    Do any of you financial guys think that we need to switch out our home stash of $100 Ben Franklins for $20s?

    Are we close enough yet?

     

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  • Wed, Dec 14, 2016 - 10:37pm

    Reply to #12

    Adam Taggart

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    Not Yet. But Why Wait?

    sand_puppy  —

    I don't think we're in much danger of waking up tomorrow to learn that $100s and $50s have suddenly been banned. The US doesn't have the massive corruption crises (yet) that countries like India and Venezuela are currently grappling with.

    That said, it sure does seem that there's a global march to get rid of cash, starting with the big notes. Will it fully succeed? Who knows? But why wait to find out?

    My advice for those with home stacks of large bills in emergency cash reserves is to start progressively swapping out the $50s and c-notes with $20s and $10s. No need to do it all at once and draw attention to yourself. I think we have time to take it gradually — a fraction every few weeks.

    I don't mind too much making this trade. While a stack of $20s will be 5x that of $100s, it's still not that large in the big scheme of things. You can still fit tens of $thousands inside the size of half a shoebox.

    Plus, smaller bills are a lot easier to transact with. Finding an efficient way to break a $100 bill during a liquid-fuel emergency or other crisis will likely be an inconvenience at best.

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  • Wed, Dec 14, 2016 - 10:38pm

    Reply to #12

    thc0655

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    Posts: 1465

    $100's for eagles

    I for one will let my local bullion dealer go to the trouble of exchanging my $100's for smaller denominations or depositing them in his account.  The first whiff I get of $100's being made illegal I will make a bee line to the dealer and exchange them all for gold or silver eagles. If he's out of those, I'll get junk silver coins.  Easy peasy.

    That being said, I don't think we're close to that yet (not in the next 6-12 months, barring a catastrophe).  If I was an evil central banker or politician set on herding the sheeple out of cash starting with $100's, I would first simply quit printing any more of them and just let them gradually disappear as banks pull them from customer deposits and return them to the Fed.  However, who would've thought Modi would take such precipitous action in India.  And it is true that most measures of financial oppression work best (or only work at all)  if they come as a surprise.

    Wait until I get my hands on whoever said, "May you live in interesting times!"

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  • Wed, Dec 14, 2016 - 11:35pm

    Reply to #12

    pinecarr

    Status Gold Member (Offline)

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    Posts: 1085

    Maybe it's closer than we think?

    "War On Cash Escalates: Australia Proposes Ban On $100 Bill; No Cash Within 10 Years?",

    Submitted by Michael Shedlock via MishTalk.com,

    Global financial repression has picked up steam. Australian citizens are likely the next victim.

    AU News reports Government Floats $100 Note Removal.

     

    Reference: http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-12-14/war-cash-escalates-australia-proposes-ban-100-bill-no-cash-within-10-years

     

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  • Wed, Dec 14, 2016 - 11:55pm

    Reply to #12
    nigel

    nigel

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    Posts: 90

    Adam Taggart

    [quote=Adam Taggart]

    sand_puppy  —

    I don't think we're in much danger of waking up tomorrow to learn that $100s and $50s have suddenly been banned. The US doesn't have the massive corruption crises (yet) that countries like India and Venezuela are currently grappling with.

    [/quote]

     

    Australia doesn't have a corruption crisis, but at the next federal budget they will be removing $100 and $50 notes.

    http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/future-of-the-100-note-up-for-grabs-as-government-targets-undeclared-cash-payments-20161213-gtakk5.html

    Opps, Pinecarr beat me to it

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  • Thu, Dec 15, 2016 - 12:14am

    Reply to #12

    Adam Taggart

    Status Platinum Member (Offline)

    Joined: May 25 2009

    Posts: 2572

    Corruption vs Evasion

    The large-bill bans in India and Venezuela have largely been emergency measures to counter wide-scale corruption — India has a massive graft-riddled "black economy" and Venezuela as we all know is experiencing hyperinflation, which is now being excerbated by international mafias hording large-domination bolivars for contraband.

    While not defending the cash bans both countries have implemented — and I'm sure the worlds central planners are providing guidance/support as they're eager to see if these precedents make the case for successful deployment elsewhere — the immediate and autocratic implementation is understandable given the acuteness of the problems India and Venezuela are facing.

    Australia on the other hand, is not in crisis. Right now, the government there has merely proposed the creation of a taskforce to study whether the benefits of moving to a "less cash" currency system (vs a completely "cashless" one) are worth pursuing. In Australia's case, as with much of the West, the focus is on tax evasion: pushing private transactions that are currently not reported to the tax authorities out into the light, where the government can get its cut.

    The taskforce is charged with presenting its findings in April, and then of course, any proposal will have to work its way through the legislative process there — as well as deal with any opposition from the general public.

    So the risk of Australians (or Americans, for that matter) waking up tomorrow to find large denomination notes have been banned is low, IMO. We'll likely see this "less cash" movement build steam for a while longer — along with a prolonged campaign in the media to sell us on its necessity — before legislation is actually passed and enacted on our home turf.

    Unless, of course, a massive fiscal crisis occurs. Then something like this could get rammed through quickly, like TARP, TALF, etc…

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  • Thu, Dec 15, 2016 - 12:17am

    #13

    sand_puppy

    Status Platinum Member (Online)

    Joined: Apr 13 2011

    Posts: 1911

    Saw and Indian Couple Last Week ...

    … in the ED for a minor complaint and asked them about their families back home in India.  How was the cash ban affecting them.

    They explained that Modi "had to do it" to "control all the crime and counterfeiting."

    Maybe you can fool all of the people all of the time.

    ———

    From a Phoenix Capital sponsored post at ZeroHedge:

    Once again, the proposal is being [framed] as a crack down on those who break the law… but the reality is it’s all about the Government wanting to obtain 100% control of the financial system.

    How do we know this?

    Because the architect of the global cash ban, former IMF Chief Economist Ken Rogoff, outlines the REAL goal in of a cash ban in his 2014 paper, Costs and benefits to phasing out paper currency:

    … it is precisely the existence of paper currency that makes it difficult for central banks to take policy interest rates much below zero, a limitation that seems to have become increasingly relevant during this century.

    The point of a cash ban isn’t to improve anything… it’s an attempt to increase Central Banks’ control of the economy. And if you think the US isn’t working to implement precisely such a scheme, you’re mistaken.

    Indeed, we've uncovered a secret document outlining how the Fed plans to incinerate savings in the coming months.

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  • Thu, Dec 15, 2016 - 1:27am

    #14
    kenny qiu

    kenny qiu

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    Posts: 27

    I have a few questions

    First, debt to GDP was 300% in 1930? 1932? If debt to GDP today is also 300%, will it play out like the 30"s? or nothing will happened after the 30's?
     
    Secondly, before things go bad, does deflation occur  first , then comes hyperinflation? If so, will gold continue going down for a relatively long period of  time?
     
    Thirdly, can the Fed play with negative interest rate to drag things along,until things turn around?

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  • Thu, Dec 15, 2016 - 1:50am

    #15

    westcoastjan

    Status Bronze Member (Offline)

    Joined: Jun 04 2012

    Posts: 177

    knowledge is power, but only if you use it

    I have no doubt we are heading towards further cash bans and de-monetization of larger denominations. It is happening before our eyes on the periphery, and Australia makes it a whole lot more interesting.  I also believe their will be a depreciation of the USD but it is going to be a managed, slow burn to coincide with the implementation of the SDR and that framework. Time is still on our side, but to see it happening in the distant future is to know that change will come – we just do not know when. The Trump thing of make America Great Again requires a lower dollar. That has to happen. What is happening right now with this dollar appreciation is an un-justified, short term post election euphoria with no basis to support it, IMHO.

    We have advance knowledge. Use it. As Adam said, start the slow steady conversion to smaller bills. Re-view your safety plans for your cash stash – as with all preps, don't put it all in one place! Buy appreciating stuff (tools, books, spare parts for quality equipment) with what will be depreciating dollars. Buy booze for barter – it always holds value and is always in demand!!  At some point good Scotch will be worth its weight in gold.

    And if worse comes to worse, you can go down with the sinking ship with a glass of something very valuable (and likely sought after on the black market) in hand, wish future generations good luck while apologizing for being part of the rape and pillage generation that put us into this predicament. I am most certain that those who frequent this site need not make that apology, however, as we all know we are a minority in our viewpoints… 

    I remain, more often than not, ashamed to be human, so badly have we screwed up this planet. IMHO, we are far from the superior species, for we have soiled our own bed. How dumb is that? At the end of the day, all of our stashed 10's and 20's won't mean anything. As Robbie said, unless we are willing (and able) to go back to the 19th century, we are toast… and then some.

    Jan

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  • Thu, Dec 15, 2016 - 3:40am

    Reply to #15

    Michael_Rudmin

    Status Gold Member (Offline)

    Joined: Jun 25 2014

    Posts: 857

    Maybe the booze, but not the gold, and definitely not the cash

    Jan, I disagree that it will necessarily be a slow burn to eliminate cash. Trump just had his tech meeting. Doesn’t mean it WILL happen, but it is very possibleethat the ban on cash AND gold (turn it in here) will be as instantaneous as tech can make it.
    I doubt they’ll ban booze. Set up a booze-making operation and get it legal, you might be okay.

    But how about a little jiu-jitsu instead? The elites want to ban cash, the better to steal. More specifically, they want to move everyone from the simulacra of cash into the simulacra of digital, the better to steal.

    Why not pull when they push, and *abandon the simulacra entirely*, making the stealing impossible?

    No more money. No barter. Just a closed society that they are out of?

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  • Thu, Dec 15, 2016 - 5:29am

    Reply to #3
    mntnhousepermi

    mntnhousepermi

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    Joined: Feb 19 2016

    Posts: 149

    my pririty item

    i have thought about this many times, and ofr me, the priority item is a washing machine. Not a fridge, not my computer, etc….. all those things I can do without. I can heat water on my wood stove, for example. I can share the milk the goats give every day and thus not need to save up in fridge, etc….

     

    But, I am disabled, and I have tried washing by hand when my hands were better, and it was too hard then !!

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  • Thu, Dec 15, 2016 - 7:31am

    Reply to #12

    thatchmo

    Status Silver Member (Offline)

    Joined: Dec 13 2008

    Posts: 325

    corruption and old bills....

    I sent one of my employees to the dump with a, admittedly, questionably-allowable load.  The county worker yelled at him to not dump it- too big.  My guy flashed him a $10 bill, he looked both ways a couple times, then allowed the dump to occur.  But then, that's Hawaii.  I wasn't sure whether to praise my guy for being astute, or chide him for fostering corruption….somehow I'll sleep tonight…..

    Regarding $100 bills, I've made a habit of collecting pre-'92(?) Bennys- the ones without the wires and security enhancements- rarely seen anymore.  Thought they'd go through the airport easier if I ever felt the need to skip town in a hurry…..;^).  Maybe not so much?  Aloha, Steve.

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  • Thu, Dec 15, 2016 - 9:18am

    #16

    nickbert

    Status Silver Member (Offline)

    Joined: Jan 14 2009

    Posts: 260

    Difficulties in removing US $100 bill from circulation

    I mentioned this in passing in one of the DD threads, but I figure I should ask the question straight out for any and all to chime in on: Does the presence and widespread use of US physical cash, particularly $100 bills, in foreign countries present a serious obstacle to the elimination of high-denomination bills, or would it amount to more of an inconvenience?

    On one hand, I can see how a sudden surge in cash velocity and inflows back to the US could result in some price inflation and some loss of faith in the currency.  Yet on the other hand, the amount of physical cash is dwarfed by the amount of electronic money in circulation (I like cash but even I happen to have a modest US dollar-denominated account in a foreign bank), so I can see how any such inflation and loss of faith might be small enough to be considered an acceptable drawback. 

    Maybe there would be better times to try phasing the higher-denomination bills out than others, like say during bond or market crash when the flight to safety to the US dollar is in full force?  And, learning from the India experience, implement a more gradual removal of said bills?  Like Adam I think the current propaganda is part of setting the stage for future public acceptance so I'm not too worried in the short-term, yet as someone who is currently overseas and likes having a modest amount of high-denomination US bills on hand I admit I am very interested in what the answer to this question turns out to be…

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  • Thu, Dec 15, 2016 - 2:13pm

    #17
    David Phillips

    David Phillips

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    Posts: 111

    40 Members of the Electoral College demand briefing about Russia

    Did you see where 40 members of the Electoral College were demanding a briefing on Russia before they vote in Trump as president?

    http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/310220-electoral-college-members-demanding-briefing-on-russian

    One of the members of the Electoral College explains why and how they have the power and the duty to vote down a president-elect if they determine that he is a demagogue, proven to be unfit, or under the influence of a foreign power (like Russia).

    Bret Chiafalo explains why Alexander Hamilton insisted the Electoral College vote be delayed

     

    You can call Director Clapper to brief the electors and sign a petition for the Electoral College to vote down trump here:

    Click here to sign petition

    You can also attend a vigil in front of your state capitol building where the members of the Electoral College are scheduled to cast their vote this coming Monday morning on the 19th.

    http://www.savedemocracy.org/?source=PCCC-e161214_1530-fin-donactblue

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  • Thu, Dec 15, 2016 - 2:29pm

    Reply to #15
    David Phillips

    David Phillips

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    Posts: 111

    Knowledge is power, but let pray they use it.

    Knowledge is power, but only if you use it."  That is sound advice, especially if your in an enlightened based democracy.  But in a totalitarian country, there is a "war on the very concept of objective truth" according to George Orwell in section 4 of "Looking Back on the Spanish Civil War."  He goes on to say, "They undermine public confidence in everyone but the Maximum Leader.  Don't believe what you read or see or hear.  Only believe the Party line and the Leader."  With the election of Trump, America is no longer a democracy based upon well-reasoned laws, it's a theocracy based upon the power of men and their ability to manipulate what the masses ever hear.  

    https://dianeravitch.net/2016/12/14/george-orwell-on-fake-news-and-fascism/

    The Conservative Christians in the US have been trying to undermine America's enlightenment based democracy since the 1950s, so that they can turn it into a theocracy based upon the teachings of God instead.  The corporations who funded the pastors to spread their capitalistic view of the religion went so far as to sponsor legislation that added "one nation under God" into the pledge and "In God we Trust" printed onto all of their money.  

    The Invention of a Corporate Christian America

    The Conservative Christians are the ones that got Trump elected so he is giving them everything they want including repealing the Johnson Amendment that would allow churches to make as many political donations they wanted, restriction and tax free.  Trump even picked Betsy DeVos as Secretary of Education to privatize America's public schools so that she can help "advance God's Kingdom." To them, Trump is there to drown what is left of the US government in the bathtub and be the totalitarian leader of the theocracy they have been dreaming of for seven decades.  

    https://dianeravitch.net/2016/12/13/katherine-stewart-betsy-devos-and-gods-plan-for-schools-and-america/

    While America has been intentionally dumbing itself down to hate government so that it could become a theocracy, KGB propaganda expert Vladimir Putin sees an opportunity.  Get Trump to replace the Republican establishment's political advisors with Steve Bannon, the very spokesperson of the Alt Right that Putin has been feeding Russian government-undermining propaganda to.  As Putin starts selling himself as the world's new Conservative leader, with the same conservative social values as the Conservative Christians in the US, so that Putin is all of a sudden a good guy. 

    http://www.spectator.co.uk/2014/02/putins-masterplan/

    Where it really gets scary is when you start looking into Putin's political advisor, Alexander Dugin, who is also the leader of the Eurasian fascist movement growing out of Russian.  Trump may be keeping everybody guessing in the US, but if you start following the Russian news (where they are celebrating Trump's victory) and paying attention to what Dugin is telling his followers, Trump's motives and actions become more clear.

     https://4threvolutionarywar.wordpress.com/  

    For example, here is an article posted by Dugin about Steve Bannon and how Bannon thinks "darkness is good."  

    “I am Thomas Cromwell in the court of the Tudors” | Steve Bannon

    Here is another one where Putin's political advisor is gloating over Trump's victory saying, "Putin, standing in the vanguard of the struggle for multipolarity, led up to this. November 8th, 2016 was a most important victory for Russia and him personally. There is no alternative to the multipolar order, and now we can finally create the architecture of this new world order."  Dugin also congratulates Alex Jones of InfoWars for getting 20 million viewers since Trump's election and talks about how Jones is going to be the new mainstream media.

    https://4threvolutionarywar.wordpress.com/2016/11/11/donald-trumps-victory-alexander-dugin/  

    It turns out the President Trump himself also called Alex Jones to thank him for his help.  Listen to Jones also explains how he is going to be the mainstream media.

    http://www.infowars.com/donald-trump-thanks-infowarriors-for-the-win/  

    In other words, Trump is Putin's puppet.  

    http://www.bbc.com/news/election-us-2016-37928171

    Your right, knowledge is power, it should be used, and I think Canada sets a good example for that.  (Especially at Pluto's on Cook Street.)  But if Trump's election is confirmed, the last thing he wants is power driven by knowledge in a nation of laws.  He wants a totalitarian nation of men, they want the power to control the truth and I'm afraid that there is going to be a "war on the very concept of objective truth" that you are hoping for.

    Please excuse me while I bring up a subject that is somewhat taboo here.

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  • Thu, Dec 15, 2016 - 3:47pm

    #18
    Time2help

    Time2help

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    Joined: Jun 08 2011

    Posts: 2252

    Logically, what's the play?

    David,

    As a theoretical discussion, what is the play here?

    Assume for a moment that enough electoral college voters swing the majority away from Trump. Then what? Who do they vote for instead? Abstain?

    How does play out (in your mind)?

    Thanks.

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  • Thu, Dec 15, 2016 - 5:32pm

    Reply to #15

    Snydeman

    Status Member (Offline)

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    Posts: 505

    Michael_Rudmin wrote:I doubt

    [quote=Michael_Rudmin]I doubt they'll ban booze. Set up a booze-making operation and get it legal, you might be okay. [/quote]

     

    There is a "prepper author," I think Rawles, who actually states in one of his books that learning how to make alcoholic drinks might be a life-saving skill in a post-collapse world. Anyone can wield an axe, but not everyone can brew beer or make wine…

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  • Thu, Dec 15, 2016 - 5:56pm

    Reply to #15
    robie robinson

    robie robinson

    Status Gold Member (Offline)

    Joined: Aug 25 2009

    Posts: 868

    or...

    ….distill hydroxylated carbon chains

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  • Thu, Dec 15, 2016 - 9:44pm

    Reply to #15
    macro2682

    macro2682

    Status Gold Member (Offline)

    Joined: Sep 03 2009

    Posts: 317

    I disagree.

    I feel like everyone and their brother are brewing their own beer nowadays. 

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  • Thu, Dec 15, 2016 - 9:58pm

    Reply to #15

    Snydeman

    Status Member (Offline)

    Joined: Feb 06 2013

    Posts: 505

    macro2682 wrote:I feel like

    [quote=macro2682]

    I feel like everyone and their brother are brewing their own beer nowadays. 

    [/quote]

     

    Yeah, but when the SHTF, do you want to rely on others for your beer supply? I think not!

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  • Fri, Dec 16, 2016 - 12:47am

    Reply to #18
    David Phillips

    David Phillips

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    Posts: 111

    Constitution says decision goes to the House of Representatives

    Time2help,

     In the case of an Electoral College deadlock or if no candidate receives the majority of votes, a “contingent election” is held. The election of the President goes to the House of Representatives. Each state delegation casts one vote for one of the top three contenders to determine a winner.

    Two Presidential elections in 1800 and 1824 have been decided in the House.

    http://history.house.gov/Institution/Electoral-College/Electoral-College/

    David

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  • Fri, Dec 16, 2016 - 1:19am

    Reply to #1
    David Phillips

    David Phillips

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    Posts: 111

    Did you ever get Glenn Beck's opinion on Alexander Dugin?

    Chris,

    I listened to your first show with Beck where he said that you two think just alike.  Do you feel that you two think just alike too?  I know what he has been saying about Alexander Dugin in Russia.  With the obvious influence that Vladimir Putin's political advisor has, I'm still curious to learn what you think of the leader of the Eurasian fascists movement growing out of Russia.

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  • Fri, Dec 16, 2016 - 3:26am

    Reply to #15
    robie robinson

    robie robinson

    Status Gold Member (Offline)

    Joined: Aug 25 2009

    Posts: 868

    Community rum

    First pressing https://www.facebook.com/100009934966033/videos/vb.100009934966033/357397724601390/?type=3&theater

     

     

     

     

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  • Fri, Dec 16, 2016 - 3:38am

    #19
    robie robinson

    robie robinson

    Status Gold Member (Offline)

    Joined: Aug 25 2009

    Posts: 868

    Community cane pressing

    https://www.facebook.com/100009934966033/videos/vb.100009934966033/357397724601390/?type=3&theater

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  • Fri, Dec 16, 2016 - 3:53am

    #20
    dryam2000

    dryam2000

    Status Bronze Member (Offline)

    Joined: Sep 06 2009

    Posts: 245

    No credibility left

    Sorry David, I don't buy the Russian hacking story.  Credibility is a highly undervalued commodity.  Our government has had difficulties with the truth too many times.  Nothing they say can be taken at face value anymore. This Russian story has been one vast & vague assertion devoid of any hard evidence.  

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  • Fri, Dec 16, 2016 - 5:27am

    Reply to #20
    David Phillips

    David Phillips

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    Posts: 111

    Evidence of Trump's connections to Russian going back to 80s

    The Dworkin Report exposes the multiple ties President-elect Trump to Vladimir Putin and Russia.

    https://www.scribd.com/document/330989098/Dworkin-Report-Trump-Russian-Ties-Unabridged-11-13-2016

     

    In addition to a quick overview of Trump’s 24 known connections, a list of links at the bottom of each report allows the reader to investigate the supporting resources for themselves.

     

    Here are a few the exhibits exposed within the report:

     

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  • Fri, Dec 16, 2016 - 5:48am

    Reply to #20
    David Phillips

    David Phillips

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    Posts: 111

    Russian influence on Alt Right in Plain Sight

    The Alt Right's nihilistic messages are easy to connect back to the Russian propaganda machine because many of them purposefully overt and are in plain sight.  Social media has allowed experts with decades of experience like Vladimir Putin (former leader of the KGB) the greatest propaganda tool ever.  The world wide web has allowed Russia to originate the propaganda overtly from “white” news sources like RT News, pass along propaganda in the US to feed uncertainty with “gray” sources like Infowars, and hired an army of covert or “black” operatives in the form of hecklers, honeypots, and trolls to create an echo chamber to reinforce the propaganda.

    The Russians are pushing four general themes. Their political message is designed to tarnish democratic leaders and institutions with allegations of voter fraud, election rigging, and political corruption.  Financially they push fear over the national debt and are constantly attacking the soundness of institutions like the Federal Reserve.  To undermine the fabric of society they purposefully aggravate racial tensions in the US.  And finally propagate wide-ranging conspiracy theories promoting fear of pending worldwide calamities and questioning any expert who might try to calm those fears.

    http://warontherocks.com/2016/11/trolling-for-trump-how-russia-is-trying-to-destroy-our-democracy/

     

    Now the Russian propaganda machine is using that "war on the very concept of objective truth" George Orwell talked about to cover their tracks, to "Undermining public confidence in everyone but the Maximum Leader." 

     

     

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  • Fri, Dec 16, 2016 - 6:01am

    Reply to #18
    Time2help

    Time2help

    Status Platinum Member (Offline)

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    Fair enough

    [quote=David Phillips]

    Time2help,

     In the case of an Electoral College deadlock or if no candidate receives the majority of votes, a “contingent election” is held. The election of the President goes to the House of Representatives. Each state delegation casts one vote for one of the top three contenders to determine a winner.

    Two Presidential elections in 1800 and 1824 have been decided in the House.

    http://history.house.gov/Institution/Electoral-College/Electoral-College/

    David

    [/quote]

    Asked and answered. Thanks.

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  • Fri, Dec 16, 2016 - 6:28am

    #21
    root

    root

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    Reality is far worse.

    The reason why GDP growth is lagging behind credit growth is because money velocity is decreasing. ANd keep in mind our GDP is inflated by accounting tricks, borrowing from future consumption and by bloating service sector (in particular financial). So reality is far more grim than what it really looks like.

    But it gets really grim when you start to understand why money velocity is decreasing. Its falling ERoEI. As ERoEI continues to decrease so will money velocity. As long as ERoEI is still above 1 new credit creation still has some effect. Once this isnt true anymore new credit wont do anything. And then the ultimate bubble will pop – the population bubble. And that my friend is the real predicament.

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  • Fri, Dec 16, 2016 - 7:04am

    #22
    Uncletommy

    Uncletommy

    Status Bronze Member (Offline)

    Joined: May 03 2014

    Posts: 524

    Alternative energy?

    I just finished stacking roughly 18,000,000 BTU's of cordwood for next year. I probably burned up 600 calories doing it. Not a bad ERoEI. I don't have the "six-pack" of years gone by, but my kids know better than to mess with me, even in my advancing years. "Old age and treachery always overcome youth and skill", eh?

    http://www.mensfitness.com/training/build-muscle/chop-your-way-to-a-solid-core

    I think I'll go in and have a "hot-toddy"; I think I've earned it.

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  • Fri, Dec 16, 2016 - 10:12am

    Reply to #20

    mememonkey

    Status Member (Offline)

    Joined: Nov 01 2009

    Posts: 101

    Duped by propaganda

    [quote=David Phillips]

    ….

    The Russians are pushing four general themes. Their political message is designed to tarnish democratic leaders and institutions with allegations of voter fraud, election rigging, and political corruption.  Financially they push fear over the national debt and are constantly attacking the soundness of institutions like the Federal Reserve.  To undermine the fabric of society they purposefully aggravate racial tensions in the US.  And finally propagate wide-ranging conspiracy theories promoting fear of pending worldwide calamities and questioning any expert who might try to calm those fears.

    http://warontherocks.com/2016/11/trolling-for-trump-how-russia-is-trying-to-destroy-our-democracy/

     

    Now the Russian propaganda machine is using that "war on the very concept of objective truth" George Orwell talked about to cover their tracks, to "Undermining public confidence in everyone but the Maximum Leader." 

     

     

    [/quote]

    David,

    So by this logic we can say that the objective truth is:

    • Our Democratic leaders and Institutions are solid
    • There is no sign of  voter fraud. election rigging and political corruption
    • There is nothing to fear about the size of our National Debt
    • The Federal Reserve is a Sound Institution that knows what it's doing and has our best interests at heart

    Ok then…

    I suspect the irony of subjecting us to these partisan propaganda screeds,  to convince us we are dupes of propaganda is lost on you.

     

    mememonkey

     

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  • Fri, Dec 16, 2016 - 1:47pm

    #23

    blackeagle

    Status Bronze Member (Offline)

    Joined: May 16 2013

    Posts: 225

    Message = Function (Words, Actors, Targets)

    Please fill in the blanks to pass the message.

    The < Please fill> nihilistic messages are easy to connect back to the <Please fill> propaganda machine because many of them purposefully overt and are in plain sight.  Social media has allowed experts with decades of experience like <Please fill> (former leader of the <Please fill>) the greatest propaganda tool ever.  The world wide web has allowed <Please fill> to originate the propaganda overtly from “white” news sources like <Please fill>, pass along propaganda in <Please fill> to feed uncertainty with “gray” sources like Infowars, and hired an army of covert or “black” operatives in the form of hecklers, honeypots, and trolls to create an echo chamber to reinforce the propaganda.

    The <Please fill> are pushing four general themes. Their political message is designed to tarnish democratic leaders and institutions with allegations of <Please fill>, <Please fill>, and political corruption.  Financially they push fear over the national debt and are constantly attacking the soundness of institutions like the <Please fill>. To undermine the fabric of society they purposefully aggravate <Please fill>.  And finally propagate wide-ranging conspiracy theories promoting fear of pending worldwide calamities and questioning any expert who might try to calm those fears.

    <Please insert one link here>

    Now the <Please fill> propaganda machine is using that "war on the very concept of objective truth" George Orwell talked about to cover their tracks, to "Undermining public confidence in everyone but the <Please fill>." 

    I know… I am not contributing anything… just saying that every side is guilty of manipulating. They all have dirty hands.

    Ok, back to real work now (Preparing Warré hives for the coming season).

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  • Fri, Dec 16, 2016 - 5:39pm

    Reply to #18

    montani79

    Status Member (Offline)

    Joined: Jul 26 2012

    Posts: 16

    Civil War.  Civil War is how

    Civil War.  Civil War is how it would play out.  Trump would refuse to step down, Generals would have to decide to pick sides, and Civil War would result.  It is utter lunacy.

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  • Fri, Dec 16, 2016 - 5:59pm

    Reply to #20

    Snydeman

    Status Member (Offline)

    Joined: Feb 06 2013

    Posts: 505

    mememonkey wrote:David, So

    [quote=mememonkey]

    David,

    So by this logic we can say that the objective truth is:

    • Our Democratic leaders and Institutions are solid
    • There is no sign of  voter fraud. election rigging and political corruption
    • There is nothing to fear about the size of our National Debt
    • The Federal Reserve is a Sound Institution that knows what it's doing and has our best interests at heart

    Ok then…

    I suspect the irony of subjecting us to these partisan propaganda screeds,  to convince us we are dupes of propaganda is lost on you.

     

    mememonkey

     

    [/quote]

     

    Unless, of course, he has a vested interest in maintaining the prevailing meme, which seems to me likely. 

     

    I'll go ahead and throw out there that I will re-open my thoughts on this hacking thing when and if actual verifiable proof of said hacking can be presented, rather than circumstantial connections between players in this game. Then again, I have no doubt that if actual verifiable evidence was ever presented, most people here would alter their thinking. 

     

    -S

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  • Fri, Dec 16, 2016 - 6:28pm

    #24

    sand_puppy

    Status Platinum Member (Online)

    Joined: Apr 13 2011

    Posts: 1911

    Coup: The CIAs history of destroying democracies

    America's Coup Machine: Destroying Democracy Since 1953

    April 8, 2014,  by Nicolas JS Davies, in alternet

    As Chris Martenson has pointed out “regime change” is code speech for overthrowing a government.  And the CIA and participating NGOs are busy throughout the world overthrowing governments to reshape political landscapes to better serve the oligarchy.

    This review article gives several examples and a taste of the unbelievable breadth of this global conquest operation.  In order to shorten the article, I will focus on Ukraine as an example and the general principles of how regime change is carried out.

    ——————————————

    from the article

    To place the coup in Ukraine in historical context, this is at least the 80th time the United States has organized a coup or a failed coup in a foreign country since 1953.  That was when President Eisenhower discovered in Iran that the CIA could overthrow elected governments who refused to sacrifice the future of their people to Western commercial and geopolitical interests.  

     Noam Chomsky calls William Blum's classic, Killing Hope: U.S. Military and CIA Interventions since World War II, [here ] "Far and away the best book on the topic."  If you're looking for historical context for what you are reading or watching on TV about the coup in Ukraine, Killing Hope will provide it.  The title has never been more apt as we watch the hopes of people from all regions of Ukraine being sacrificed on the same altar as those of people in Iran (1953); Guatemala(1954); Thailand (1957); Laos (1958-60); the Congo (1960); Turkey (1960, 1971 & 1980); Ecuador (1961 & 1963); South Vietnam (1963); Brazil (1964); the Dominican Republic (1963); Argentina (1963); Honduras (1963 & 2009); Iraq (1963 & 2003); Bolivia (1964, 1971 & 1980); Indonesia (1965); Ghana (1966); Greece (1967); Panama (1968 & 1989); Cambodia (1970); Chile (1973); Bangladesh (1975); Pakistan (1977); Grenada (1983); Mauritania (1984); Guinea (1984); Burkina Faso (1987); Paraguay (1989); Haiti (1991 & 2004); Russia (1993); Uganda (1996);and Libya (2011).  This list does not include a roughly equal number of failed coups, nor coups in Africa and elsewhere in which a U.S. role is suspected but unproven.

    The disquieting reality of the world we live in is that America [works] to destroy democracies, even as it pretends to champion democracy….  When Harold Pinter won the Nobel Prize for Literature in 2005, at the height of the genocidal American war on Iraq, he devoted much of his acceptance speech to an analysis of this dichotomy.  He said of the U.S., "It has exercised a quite clinical manipulation of power worldwide while masquerading as a force for universal good.  It's a brilliant, even witty, highly successful act of hypnosis… Brutal, indifferent, scornful and ruthless it may be, but it is also very clever."

    The basic framework of U.S. coups has hardly evolved since 1953.  … .the U.S. has always preferred "low-intensity conflict" to full-scale invasions and occupations.  The CIA and U.S. special forces use proxies and covert operations to overthrow governments and suppress movements that challenge America's insatiable quest for global power.    This model has three stages:

    1) Creating and strengthening opposition forces

    In the early stages of a U.S. plan for regime change… include forming and funding conservative political parties, student groups, trade unions and media outlets, and running well-oiled propaganda campaigns both in the country being targeted and in regional, international and U.S. media.

    … [In Chile] The CIA produced 20 radio spots per day that were broadcast on at least 45 stations, as well as dozens of fabricated daily "news" broadcasts.  Thousands of posters depicted children with hammers and sickles stamped on their foreheads…

    In Ukraine, the U.S. has worked since independence in 1991 … and former Prime Minister Viktor Yanukovich was elected President in 2010.  

    The U.S. employed all its traditional tactics leading up to the coup in 2014.  The U.S. National Endowment for Democracy (NED) has partially taken over the CIA's role in grooming opposition candidates, parties and political movements, with an annual budget of $100 million to spend in countries around the world.

    The NED made no secret of targeting Ukraine as a top priority, funding 65 projects there, more than in any other country.  The NED's neoconservative president, Carl Gershman, called Ukraine "the biggest prize" in a Washington Post op-ed in September 2013, as the U.S. operation there prepared to move into its next phase.  (this article was published in 2014)

    2) Violent street demonstrations

    In November 2013, the European Union presented President Yanukovich with a 1,500 page "free trade agreement," similar to NAFTA or the TPP, but which withheld actual EU membership from Ukraine.  The agreement would have opened Ukraine's borders to Western exports and investment without a reciprocal opening of the EU's borders. Ukraine, a major producer of cheese and poultry, would have been allowed to export only 5% of its cheese and 1% of its poultry to the EU.  Meanwhile Western firms could have used Ukraine as a gateway to flood Russia with cheap products from Asia. This would have forced Russia to close its borders to Ukraine, shattering the industrial economy of Eastern Ukraine.

    Understandably, and for perfectly sound reasons as a Ukrainian president, Viktor Yanukovich rejected the EU agreement.  This was the signal for pro-Western and right-wing groups in Kiev to take to the street.  In the West, we tend to interpret street demonstrations as representing surges of populism … [though paid protestors were bussed in to the cities in busses provided by anonymous donors.]

    In Ukraine, street protests turned violent in January 2014 as the neo-Nazi Svoboda Party and the Right Sector militia took charge of the crowds in the streets.  The Right Sector militia only appeared in Ukraine in the past 6 months, although it incorporated existing extreme-right groups and gangs.  It is partly funded by Ukrainian exiles in the U.S. and Europe, and may be a creation of the CIA.  After Right Sector seized government buildings, parliament outlawed the protests and the police reoccupied part of Independence Square, killing two protesters.  

    On February 7th, the Russians published an intercepted phone call between Assistant Secretary of State Nuland and U.S. Ambassador Geoffrey Pyatt.  The intercept revealed that U.S. officials were preparing to seize the moment for a coup in Ukraine.  The transcript reads like a page from a John Le Carre novel: "I think we're in play… we could land jelly-side up on this one if we move fast."  Their main concern was to marginalize heavyweight boxing champion Vitali Klitschko, who had become the popular face of the "revolution" and was favored by the European Union, and to ensure that U.S. favorite Arseniy Yatsenyuk ended up in the Prime Minister's office.

    On the night of February 17th, Right Sector announced a march from Independence Square to the parliament building on the 18th.  This ignited several days of escalating violence in which the death toll rose to 110 people killed, including protesters, government supporters and 16 police officers.  More than a thousand people were wounded. Vyacheslav Veremyi, a well-known reporter for a pro-government newspaper, was dragged out of a taxi near Independence Square and shot to death in front of a crowd of onlookers.

    Right Sector broke into an armory near Lviv and seized military weapons, and there is evidence of both sides using snipers to fire from buildings in Kiev at protesters and police in the streets and the square below.  Former security chief Yakimenko believes that snipers firing from the Philharmonic building were U.S.-paid foreign mercenaries, like the snipers from the former Yugoslavia who earn up to $2,000 per day shooting soldiers in Syria.

    As violence raged in the streets, the government and opposition parties held emergency meetings and reached two truce agreements, one on the night of February 19th and another on the 21st, brokered by the foreign ministers of France, Germany and Poland.  But Right Sector rejected both truces and called for the "people's revolution" to continue until Yanukovich resigned and the government was completely removed from power.

    3) The coup d'etat.

    The creation and grooming of opposition forces and the spread of violence in the streets are deliberate strategies to create a state of emergency as a pretext for removing an elected or constitutional government and seizing power.  Once the coup leaders have been trained and prepared by their CIA case officers, U.S. officials have laid their plans and street violence has broken down law and order and the functioning of state institutions, all that remains is to strike decisively at the right moment to remove the government and install the coup leaders in its place.  

     In Ukraine, Vitaly Klitschko announced that parliament would open impeachment proceedings against Yanukovich, but, later that day, lacking the 338 votes required for impeachment, a smaller number of members simply approved a declaration that Yanukovich "withdrew from his duties in an unconstitutional manner," and appointed Oleksandr Turchynov of the opposition Fatherland Party as Acting President.  Right Sector seized control of government buildings and patrolled the streets.  Yanukovich refused to resign, calling this an illegal coup d'etat.  The coup leaders vowed to prosecute him for the deaths of protesters, but he escaped to Russia.  Arseniy Yatsenyuk was appointed Prime Minister on February 27th, exactly as Nuland and Pyatt had planned.

    Since 1953, most U.S. coups have involved using local senior military officers to deliver the final blow to remove the elected or ruling leader.  The officers have then been rewarded with presidencies, dictatorships or other senior positions in new U.S.-backed regimes.

    Another feature of U.S. coups is the role of the Western media in publicizing official cover stories and suppressing factual journalism.  This role has also been consistent since 1953, but it has evolved as corporate media have consolidated their monopoly power.  By their very nature, coups are secret operations and U.S. media are prohibited from revealing "national security" secrets about them, such as the names of CIA officers involved.  By only reporting official cover stories, they become … co-conspirators in the critical propaganda component of these operations.  

    Readers who rely on "reputable mainstream news sources" are profoundly miss-informed.

    ————————————————

    Nicolas J. S. Davies is the author of "Blood On Our Hands: The American Invasion and Destruction of Iraq." Davies also wrote the chapter on "Obama At War" for the book, "Grading the 44th President: A Report Card on Barack Obama's First Term as a Progressive Leader."

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

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  • Sat, Dec 17, 2016 - 10:39am

    Reply to #20
    David Phillips

    David Phillips

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    Joined: Oct 29 2009

    Posts: 111

    Democracy a sound institution when its not cheated or undermined

    mememonkey, 

    I think the concept of a democracy that seeks the objective truth is solid and works fine if that is what we are truly striving for.  The main reason our democracy isn't working is because too many of our leaders have intentionally been trying to undermine our enlightened based democracy since the 1950's so that they could turn America into a corporately control theocracy instead.

    The biggest fraud I see is gerrymandered districts and multitudes of voter restriction laws designed to limit rather than expand voting.  Democracy works much better when people are encouraged or required to participate more and people weren't tripping over each other to cheat the system.

    America had a budget surplus in 1996.  We would have paid off our national debt entirely by 2014 if we had stuck to Clinton's budget plan.  But that was blown when Bush lied us into Iraq and gave his war profiteering buddies tax cuts three times as costly.

    The Central Banking system here in Canada works fine, because they play by the objective rules and no one is trying to intentionally undermine the entire system.  Unlike the United States where either the bankers take total advantage, or where the Fed is constantly being undermined by the same industrialists that tried to overthrow Franklin Roosevelt with a coup in 1933 and replace him with a dictator demanding a return to the gold standard.

    Health care is another example of where the American people have been duped.  In the US I paid $600/month for a family of four with $1,000s in deductibles, a 20% copay, that was increased to about 40% after you add in the cost of denials.  In Canada I pay $150/month for basic health care for a family of four with no deductible, copays, or denials.  Americans could cut their medical cost in half, by simply adopting socialized healthcare like everyone else.  Imagine how much money individuals could save for college or retirement if their medical cost were cut in half.  It would be a Godsend for most people, including the wealthy, because their's is only $150/month too.

    But Americans have been duped (by the very religion that is supposed to help the less fortunate) into believing that social programs like these are evil and are to be blamed for everything including the national debt.  When its really the endless wars and deeper tax cuts to the war profiteers that are really to blame.

    There is also a carbon tax in BC by adding a pollution tax that reduced people's income tax and boosted the provinces GDP.  It saved one of the school districts several $100,000/year when it encouraged him to switch from heating oil to heat pumps instead.

    http://www.theglobeandmail.com/opinion/the-insidious-truth-about-bcs-carbon-tax-it-works/article19512237/

    The institution of democracy works fine in countries throughout the world where they seek the objective truth as designed.  But democracies throughout history are rare and therefore fragile.  Democracy and any institution is likely to fail If people are intentionally trying to cheat or try to undermine it.  Like the Conservative Christians have tried to do.  Like the international corporations have tried to do.  Like the Australian economists continually trying to dissolve the Fed have tried to do.  Or like how Vladimir Putin is really stirring the pot, by feeding his anti-government propaganda to such a receptive American audience. 

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  • Sat, Dec 17, 2016 - 10:41am

    Reply to #24
    David Phillips

    David Phillips

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    Posts: 111

    Great article. Please send link.

    sand_puppy,

    That's a great article.  Can you please send me a link?

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  • Sat, Dec 17, 2016 - 1:52pm

    #25
    Time2help

    Time2help

    Status Platinum Member (Offline)

    Joined: Jun 08 2011

    Posts: 2252

    F*** democracy

    Democracy is mob rule. How about sticking to the limits of a Constitutional Republic for a change?

    One of the numerous nested predicaments we are in is at the root of your monotonous diatribe. It's not "Conservative Christians", or "Clinton's Budget Plan" or "Australian Economists" (really, what has Crocodile Dundee's accountant ever done to you?).  And it's not Vlad Putin either.

    It's the Central Banking Cartel that you, for some reason, feel compelled to shill for. The one that runs both the US and Canadian central banks. The one that requires exponential growth each year to keep from imploding it's fractional reserve, fiat currency racket to further engorge it's private owners while driving nails into the fate of homo sapiens over the entire planet.

    You should hang out with Million Dollar Bonus of ZeroHedge fame David. http://www.zerohedge.com. I think you'd find a kindred spirit there.

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  • Sat, Dec 17, 2016 - 3:40pm

    #26
    turtle1663

    turtle1663

    Status Member (Offline)

    Joined: Jan 06 2010

    Posts: 5

    the Math

    The math has been layout almost 50 years ago by Mike Montagne, and you/people here are well aware of it with reference to older postings/articles. Here's to refresh the brain a little.

    https://www.peakprosperity.com/forum/has-mike-montagne-discovered-holy-grail-financial-solutions/8917

     

     

     

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  • Sat, Dec 17, 2016 - 4:29pm

    #27
    mjtrac

    mjtrac

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    Joined: Jan 17 2014

    Posts: 5

    nothing can grow forever

    Chris,

    I'd thought your crash course was the shortest way to describe the predicament.  But I see you've reduced it to four words.  Congratulations.  Unfortunately, those four words make you un-American; both mainstream parties consider them treasonous, and the incoming President would if he could read four words in a row.

    On another issue, how do you describe 10^15th in language that is understandable?  Personally, I split it up: lay out 100 chocolate bars in a row, then repeat that row 100 times so you have a grid of 100 x 100 chocolate bars, then stack them 100 high.  That's 10^6, or one chocolate bar per day for life for each of two parents and one child.  Now give one of those stacks to every household on the planet, a number on the order of 10^9.  That's 10^15 chocolate bars.

    I don't know enough to have an opinion about either your politics or your predictions.  But I really appreciate what you did with your Crash Course, and it's a shame the powerful WILL not understand it.

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  • Sat, Dec 17, 2016 - 6:13pm

    #28
    Michael Frome

    Michael Frome

    Status Bronze Member (Offline)

    Joined: Jun 20 2011

    Posts: 90

    budget surplus? Really?

    Quit apologizing for politicians if you wish to not look unseemly to me.  If they are talking, they are lying.  Old hat.  Especially a bloody clinton, but not at all excepting the rest of them, both """sides""" (note the triple-quote).

    http://www.craigsteiner.us/articles/16

    I did not carefully read the above, but it looked about right at a glance .  Some time ago I got sick of hearing "clinton budget surplus" and did my own due diligence so I am, myself, convinced, to myself, that it is a bunch of smoke endlessly recycled by partisans.  I generally don't bother to debunk any more, but I guess I'm a bit "triggered" today (single-quotes).

    DYODD, if you'all care to.

    m

     

     

     

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  • Sat, Dec 17, 2016 - 7:28pm

    Reply to #25

    Mots

    Status Bronze Member (Offline)

    Joined: Jun 18 2012

    Posts: 67

    F*** Democracy

    Thank  you Time2help.  Very well stated.

    The main issue these  days is that the people (thanks to the Internet Revolution) are beginning to figure out that government is just a place where the worst of human kind get together to prey upon the people.

    Instead of more and more centralized government, the productive path forward is self resilient community development.

    This is a natural evolution of society and such communities will create their own emergent associations. The issue is that every self replicating, growing biological entity has an optimum size, and needs to associate as more equal sized units.   In the case of human society, 150 members  communicate and get to know each other well and eliminate corruption naturally and more than (depending  on the activities) about 10,000 members provides for and facilitates sociopathy.  Now that we can look back on history and see what worked best, we can see that such arrangements (the Dutch cities, the N Italian city  states, the earlly American states,  the Greek city  states  come to mind) provided the greatest benefit for the most people.

    Unfortunately, most people still think that more and more oppression by  a smaller and smaller set of  selfish socialpaths (who specialize in dominating discussion with purchased media, then using democracy to get what they want) is the way to further progress.  This site is infected with (and even managed by) those with globalist convictions.  We need to develop personal (and real) community based relationships.  Internet chit chat crapping in front of a glowing computer screen about how a big government will solve "our" problems is not a substitute but instead facilitates the problem by providing an imaginary alternative to real progress.

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  • Sun, Dec 18, 2016 - 12:02am

    #29
    David Phillips

    David Phillips

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    Posts: 111

    Equating democracy to mob rule is what Hitler did too.

    "Democracy is mob rule. How about sticking to the limits of a Constitutional Republic for a change?"

    Equating democracy to mob rule is exactly what Hitler said too.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oUgdpKXM2Uk

     

    Right wing Libertarians need to take a strong look at who they really are and what they truly represent.

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  • Sun, Dec 18, 2016 - 12:15am

    #30

    Mots

    Status Bronze Member (Offline)

    Joined: Jun 18 2012

    Posts: 67

    Equating Democracy To Mob Rule Is What Hitler Did Too.

    "Equating Democracy To Mob Rule Is What Hitler Did Too."

    he should know………………………………… (worked for him)

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  • Sun, Dec 18, 2016 - 12:24am

    Reply to #1
    David Phillips

    David Phillips

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    Posts: 111

    What's your take on Democratic Republic our Founders designed?

    Chris,

    You've been a great resource with lots of insight over the years, but I'm currently reaccessing what your site really stands for.

    Mememonkey writes,  "Democracy is mob rule. How about sticking to the limits of a Constitutional Republic for a change?"

    What is your take?  Do you think democracy is mob rule and that the United States is a strict Constitutional Republic that rejects the concept of majority rules?  Or do you think that our founders intended America to be a Democratic Republic where the ultimate power rests with it citizens who are all entitled to elect their representatives?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_republic 

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  • Sun, Dec 18, 2016 - 12:59am

    Reply to #1

    mememonkey

    Status Member (Offline)

    Joined: Nov 01 2009

    Posts: 101

    Wrong .... again

    [quote=David Phillips]

    Chris,

    You've been a great resource with lots of insight over the years, but I'm currently reaccessing what your site really stands for.

    Mememonkey writes,  "Democracy is mob rule. How about sticking to the limits of a Constitutional Republic for a change?"

    What is your take?  Do you think democracy is mob rule and that the United States is a strict Constitutional Republic that rejects the concept of majority rules?  Or do you think that our founders intended America to be a Democratic Republic where the ultimate power rests with it citizens who are all entitled to elect their representatives?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_republic 

    [/quote]

    David,  I know it is asking much of someone that traffics entirely in simplistic propaganda characterizations, but at a minimum you should endeavor to not misquote or incorrectly attribute statements within the threads here. 

    Hopefully while your are reassessing  what Peak Prosperity "really stands for"  you will reach the conclusion that it is a forum for intelligent discourse around the 3E's based on supportable evidence not crass partisan propaganda.  In a best case scenario you  will realize that is not one of your strengths and act accordingly.

     

    mememonkey

     

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  • Sun, Dec 18, 2016 - 1:17am

    #31
    Time2help

    Time2help

    Status Platinum Member (Offline)

    Joined: Jun 08 2011

    Posts: 2252

    Maybe Slow Down

    That had to be the quickest jump to Godwin's law I've seen yet.

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  • Sun, Dec 18, 2016 - 2:36am

    #32
    Mike Bolan

    Mike Bolan

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    Joined: Feb 11 2016

    Posts: 1

    Peak Debt

    Surely there must be a stage when there are no credible assets left to justify any belief that the debt can be repaid? In a world of finite resources, we must hit a stage where no-one can honestly believe that the debtor can ever repay the debt in anything except finance, but if the money isn't worth anything real then the debt bubble must burst, n'est ce pas?

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  • Sun, Dec 18, 2016 - 6:37am

    Reply to #1
    David Phillips

    David Phillips

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    Posts: 111

    Familiar with 3E's and how Dugin feeds the Libertarian message

    Mememonkey,

    I understand the 3E's Chris talks about and appreciate his insights there, but I have recently noticed that a lot of his themes are similar to ones being pushed out of Russia, his cover on the war on Russia in particular.  (I also find it peculiar that he has dodged my questions about Alexander Dugin for a month now, when Glenn Beck is sounding the warning more than anyone.)  

    Although Chris is probably right about the US Federal Reserve being on the verge of collapse (although he has been saying that for nearly a decade now), it's still the sort of anti-establishment message that Putin's political advisor would like to see.  As for Ron Paul's Libertarians, the leader of the Eurasian fascist movement specifically targets that crowd to help spread his anti-government message. 

    Inline image 1
     

    The Hitler quotes are historically accurate and currently appropriate considering your view on democracy being mob rule.  There's plenty of crass partisan "Shrillary" propaganda within the threads here, blaming the liberal globalists for everything, while Trump packs his court with even bigger elitists.  

     

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  • Sun, Dec 18, 2016 - 9:50am

    Reply to #1

    mememonkey

    Status Member (Offline)

    Joined: Nov 01 2009

    Posts: 101

    Left Right Circus

    [quote=David Phillips]

    Mememonkey,

    I understand the 3E's Chris talks about and appreciate his insights there, but I have recently noticed that a lot of his themes are similar to ones being pushed out of Russia, his cover on the war on Russia in particular.  (I also find it peculiar that he has dodged my questions about Alexander Dugin for a month now, when Glenn Beck is sounding the warning more than anyone.)  Although Chris is probably right about the US Federal Reserve being on the verge of collapse (although he has been saying that for nearly a decade now), it's still the sort of anti-establishment message that Putin's political advisor would like to see.  As for Ron Paul's Libertarians, the leader of the Eurasian fascist movement specifically targets that crowd to help spread his anti-government message. 

    Inline image 1
     

    Considering your view on democracy being mob rule, my Hitler quotes are accurately fair.  There's plenty of crass partisan "Shrillary" propaganda within the threads here, blaming the liberal globalists for everything while Trump packs his court with even bigger elitists.  

    How about addressing the facts I've presented about the democracies and central banks that do work, the budget surplus that was paying down our national debt in the late 90's, or the socialized health care systems around the world that work for half the price instead of dismissing them and insulting the messenger with false stereotypes.

    [/quote]

    David,    

    As I tried to point out in my last response you are wrong to attribute that quote to me. As Dave F pointed out once, you seem to operate on transmit more than receive.  I don't actually think that you are capable of thinking outside of your preconceived ideological notions, but since you asked, here are some thoughts for you on your assertions.

    Do you realize that your when your 'Budget surplus Hero' Bill Clinton wasn't working on  undoing Glass Stegal act that unleashed the financialization/derivative  debt genie for Wall Street, he was busy, between bimbo eruptions,  bombing Iraq and Yugoslavia and presiding over the genocidal killing  of 500,000 Iraqi children courtesy of the sanctions regime?

    And there was no actual budget 'surplus', it was financial gimmickry,that obfuscated the intergovernmental borrowing one more lie in a sea of lies, a  self serving partisan promotion to fool the gullible and math challenged.  Apparently it worked! 

    You are living in a fairytale propaganda matrix where you think one side of the the corporate plutocracy is noble because they mouth platitudes that resonate with your belief system.  While they steal, lie cheat and kill to serve a completely different globalist power agenda.  An agenda which you and other partisans conveniently ignore when it's 'your' team in power.

    You were horrified by Bush and Cheney's illegal wars of choice.  Congratulations!  You got that right. 

    But where were you and your blue team cohorts  when Obama and Hillary Clinton were ginning up war in Syria, and Libya, Somalia and Yemen,  Are you ok with the Drone wars?  The civilian kill ratios?   Never mind that the whole premise of war on terror is bullshit.   How about  Hillary and her Neocon State dept fomenting a Coup in Ukraine and putting and funding actual card carrying, goose stepping, swastika wearing  Nazi's into power?  Nazi's that burned people alive no less.     And you want to compare Ron Paul with Hitler!  I guess I  missed his speech on invading Poland  That is probably one of the dumbest things I've seen here.

    Not a peep from you guys on that illegal war/atrocity  record while Hillary campaigned on tolerance, inclusion and helping families.   What about the families woman and children  over there?  do they count?  

    I assume your good with all that because those are the people that you are carrying water for with your tiresome and repetitive third rate propaganda feeds.

    Does it occur to you that the Russians actually have a legitimate self interest in that part of the world and are behaving legally by International standards?    That it is the US and NATO that has violated our agreements and encroached on  Russia's borders with hostile intent and a dangerous nuclear destabilizing agenda.   Is it any wonder they respond positively to Trump who has indicated a policy of non aggression?  Is that not rational?  

    Does it occur to you that perhaps Chris is not dodging your hard hitting 'analysis' on 'Trump as  Dugin's pawn', but merely ignoring your  histrionic cut and paste agitprop spam as it is ludicrous and unworthy of serious discussion.

    Oh and congratulations on having the only Central Bank that is doing right by it's citizens,  I can hardly wait to invest my savings up there and start compounding on that luscious half a percent interest rate.  Or buy a house in that stable housing market.    It is a shame that our evil industrialists are corrupting our noble selfless bankers down here!

    If you really got the the 3E's  you  wouldn't be spouting partisan diatribes, you would start divesting yourself from the propaganda matrix and  you'd realize that the predicaments we face transcend the bullshit left right circus, you've been conditioned to believe in. Choose your clown,  it's still a fucking circus. 

    Reality is that It's energy and debt that is calling the tune for our predicaments   We are going to need a whole new way of dancing.

    mememonkey

     

     

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  • Sun, Dec 18, 2016 - 1:21pm

    Reply to #1

    Michael_Rudmin

    Status Gold Member (Offline)

    Joined: Jun 25 2014

    Posts: 857

    David Phillips

    The founders explicitly DID reject majority rule. If you want to know what they wanted, they wanted to be the elite philosophers who ruled everybody in a moderately benign-looking fashion.
    If you want to see how benign it actually was, read their model: Plato’s Republic. Question whether that is what they wanted? consider who they allowed to vote. Then consider the restraints they placed on the vote by making a second-derivative electoral college.

    Your heros on Monday will be fighting against Trump’s accession to the presidency, explicitly because the founders didn’t believe in democratic principals, but only acknowledged them.

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  • Sun, Dec 18, 2016 - 3:43pm

    #33

    newsbuoy

    Status Bronze Member (Offline)

    Joined: Dec 10 2013

    Posts: 117

    The Lords of Wealth

    On the Brink of Economic Calamity

    We are witnessing unprecedented low points in American economic history as 50 million Americans—17 million of them children—are living below the poverty line[i],[ii] while 47 million citizens rely on food stamps[iii].  All told, the 2008 economic collapse cost over $20 trillion globally[iv]. Millions of people lost their homes and jobs, while many of our nation’s children fell deeper into hunger. According to some figures, 53 million people entered the poverty ranks.[v] In the US and other developed nations, suicide rates skyrocketed due to financial stress and disruption of families. The Bureau of Labor Statistics has listed unemployment at 7.5% — a rate that is irreconcilable with reality. The more reliable figure, calculated by economist John Williams from Shadow Government Statistics, places unemployment at 22%. If we are to believe the analyses of Tyler Cowen at the Mercatus Center at George Mason University, we might be looking at an unemployment rate as high as 41%, since 33% of Americans are not working and no longer have the desire to find jobs.[vi]  This group is categorically removed from the government’s labor radar and is absent from the Bureau of Labor Statistics’ fudged data.

    The Global Money Matrix

    In the midst of this economic turmoil there is one group that still manages to flourish: the global elite. With more than $32 trillion stashed in offshore banks around the world, the wealth of the so-called “1%” is staggeringly obscene and grows by the day .[vii]  Their aggregate wealth, larger than the US GDP and national debt combined, is a testament to the tremendous influence and lobbying power held by a coterie of private interests that dominate nearly every sector of society.

    Instead of reining in the inordinate control exercised by the elite, most of our elected officials have become little more than shills for these corporate overlords, creating policies that favor their campaign donors instead of the American people. Hundreds of millions of dollars were funneled into Barack Obama’s 2012 presidential campaign by donors whose business affiliations run the gamut from real estate and finance to media and law firms. According to Opensecrets.org, “Together, 769 elites are directing at least $186,500,000 for Obama’s re-election efforts — money that has gone into the coffers of his campaign as well as the Democratic National Committee.”[viii] This figure doesn’t even account for the massive contributions to Obama’s reelection by corporate-driven SuperPACs. Obama is just one example of how our politicians are beholden to the elite agenda. A quick glance at the campaign donation figures presented at Opensecrets.org reveals just how much special interests control Washington’s policymakers.

    Given the corporatist influence that infects our halls of power, it is little wonder that our tax dollars continue to fund unconstitutional spying, perpetual war, and neoliberal policies that extend the powers of the world’s richest individuals and organizations. As Americans struggle financially, our social safety nets are increasingly losing priority to military and security expenditures that are historically unmatched anywhere in the world. Increasingly, the actions taken by the world’s most powerful corporations and governments seem to be at odds with public perception and wellbeing. Here are a few examples of how this combined influence has increased at the expense of the average American:

    ALEC – This conservative group, funded by donors like the Koch brothers and Exxon Mobil and fueled by politicians including Ohio Governor John Kasich and Wisconsin Governor Scott Walker,[ix] writes model legislation calling to “privatize education, break unions, deregulate major industries, pass voter ID laws, and more.”[x] They do so with the stated aim to “form formal internal Task Forces to develop policy covering virtually every responsibility of state government.”[xi] ALEC’s website claims, “Each year, close to 1,000 bills, based at least in part on ALEC Model Legislation, are introduced in the states. Of these, an average of 20% become law.”[xii]

                 Federal Taxes and Expenditures – In 2014, President Obama plans to spend 57% of his discretionary budget on military, with 6% going to education, 3% to science, and 1% to food and agriculture.[xiii] And while the federal corporate tax rate is 35% in America, a variety of loopholes means that the average rate paid by corporations is 25%, with some companies paying as low as 10%.[xiv]

                Citizens United – This US Supreme Court case set the legal precedent for unlimited campaign donations in US elections, qualifying corporate donations as a form a free speech. Since this case concluded, campaign expenditures have tripled.[xv]

                 TARP, or “the Bailout” – Following the economic crisis of 2008, US taxpayers handed $700 billion to major players in the automotive, financial, and insurance industries[xvi]. According to The New York Times, “Treasury…provided the money to banks with no effective policy or effort to compel the extension of credit. There were no strings attached: no requirement or even incentive to increase lending to home buyers, and…not even a request that banks report how they used TARP funds.”[xvii]  The Huffington Post reports, “Twenty-five top recipients of government bailout funds spent more than $71 million on lobbying in the year since they were rescued.”

    In the Name of Security

    The most concerning imbalance of power, however, may lie in the ‘security state’. In 2010, there were over 1900 private corporations with government contracts working for Homeland Security and NSA intelligence projects. Just one of these firms, Booz Allen Hamilton, where Edward Snowden was employed, has over 25,000 employees, nearly half of whom have security clearance of “top secret or higher”.[xviii]  Overall, there are an estimated half million individuals in private firms with access to intelligence secrets.[xix]  The federal intelligence agencies only employ 107,000 individuals; therefore, the bulk of intelligence and surveillance operations are conducted by private workforces.[xx] For fiscal year 2013, the country’s budget for intelligence, across 16 agencies, was approximately $52.6 billion, with 70% going to private contractors.[xxi]

    Recent revelations by Edward Snowden unearthed the breadth and scope of this surveillance network. The National Security Agency has collected vast amounts of data to spy upon American citizens, elected legislators in Congress, leaders and populations of other nations, multilateral and international administrations, non profit organizations, and a variety of public and environmental advocacy groups. This defines the current trajectory of the US as a failed republic degenerating into a fascist regime.  For both corporate Republicans and Democrats, the rise of surreptitious surveillance on citizens, in direct violation of the Constitution, is perceived as a matter of national security to protect both the country’s domestic and foreign interests.

    NSA Director Gen. Keith Alexander claimed publicly that intelligence surveillance of the American public “foiled” 54 terrorist attacks by extremists. Independent research confirmed that in fact only one, and a possible second attack, could be directly associated with the war on terrorism.  Speaking on the matter, Vermont Senator Patrick J. Leahy stated, “There is no evidence that [bulk] phone records collection helped to thwart dozens or even several terrorist plots….These weren’t all plots and they weren’t all foiled.”.[xxii] The Washington Times reported that “Keith B. Alexander admitted that the number of terrorist plots foiled by the NSA’s huge database of every phone call made in or to America was only one or perhaps two—far smaller than the 54 originally claimed by the administration.” General Alexander, under the questioning of Senator Leahy, also admitted that only 13 of the 54 cases were in any way connected to the U.S.  As the Washington Times clarifies, “The [NSA phone records] database contains so-called metadata—the numbers dialing and dialed, time and duration of call—for every phone call made in or to the U.S.”[xxiii]  This is but one example highlighting how the consolidation of corporate and political power comes at the cost of human rights and personal liberties for the average citizen.

    Obama has lied to the American people repeatedly about the extent of the security state and its infiltration into the lives of average citizens, including massive data collection of private phone calls, emails, and internet activity. The NSA revelations of Edward Snowden provide documented proof that intelligence surveillance is far more extensive than ever believed. The activities of the FBI, CIA, Pentagon, FISA courts, USDA and FDA, and the Justice Department contribute to the deterioration of citizens’ privacy and freedom. And a recent report by Essential Information entitled Spooky Business describes how some of America’s largest corporations have engaged in corporate espionage to spy on non-profit organizations. Ralph Nader writes, “In effect, big corporations have been able to hire portions of the national security apparatus, and train their tools of spycraft on the citizen groups of our country.”[xxiv] Thus, the powers of government and corporations are fostered and increased by one another, while those of the average American continue to dwindle

    Groupthink and the 15%

    It is unrealistic to frame the problem of control and socio-economic manipulation as a war between the 1 and the 99.  The 1 percent cannot achieve its goals without support from armies of technocrats and workforces willing to sacrifice moral values to secure careers in corporations and political parties, regardless of the inhumane ruthlessness behind their undemocratic agendas. The private industrial complexes of Too Big to Fail corporations require minions of technocrats and employees—as well as a large network of contracted small businesses, advisors, and consultants—to exert control over the population.  Therefore, we should realistically be speaking of a 15 versus 85 percent in the war on inequality, control, and power.

    When this additional 45 million people, or 15 percent of the population, are added to the formula for who controls the major stakes of power, wealth, influence and policymaking today, we can more easily understand how the psychology of “group think” creates a protective shield around the power brokers calling the shots.  When the psychologist Irving Janis first used the term “groupthink”, he referred to a collective weakening of individuals’ “mental efficiency, reality testing and moral judgment” through pressure to stick with the corporate plan.[xxv]  Among the characteristics common to groupthink, which enables the privileged elite to exert compliance to their mission without dissent, is a false belief in the inherent morality of their jobs. For example, the neoliberal free-market ideology posits that trickle down economics from the top will create more jobs and raise families’ personal income—a persistent myth that has no historical example to prove it as fact.   The actual facts, according to the 2012 Global Wealth Data Book, show that since the implementation of neoliberal economics in the late 1970s and early 1980s, the financial health of America’s middle class has fallen to 27th globally, behind Qatar, Taiwan, Cyprus and Kuwait. Simultaneously, the US has the most millionaires and billionaires of any other nation.[xxvi]  Groupthink also generates an “illusion of invulnerability,” an insincere and narrow confidence that enables workers to take extreme risks and a distorted group rationalization to deny facts to the contrary of their optimism.  Other characteristics include stereotyping enemies, managerial pressure on nonconformists, and self-censorship of doubts within the organization.  An illusion of unanimity is sustained whereby the image is created and perpetuated that the majority agree with organization’s purpose and mission.[xxvii]

    Without the possibility of groupthink and this additional 15 percent passively serving the most powerful 1 percent’s destructive acts, life in the US would be far more democratic, just, and free today. Unfortunately, our society currently necessitates profit for both legitimacy and survival. This unprecedented economic and political atmosphere is giving birth to a new face of fascism.

    The Dominant Culture

    When considering the human element in our societal structure, the question arises as to how human beings can act with such blatant disregard for damage incurred. There are varying figures assessing the percent of psychopathology among high level financial and corporate executives. In the general population, approximately 1% can be clinically diagnosed with sociopathic and psychopathic disorders[xxviii]. However, for the wealthy and power elite, estimates are higher. Canadian psychiatrist Dr. Robert Hare estimates that 4 percent of corporate executives are clinically sociopathic.[xxix] Sherree DeCovny, a former high-powered investment banker now with CFA Financial Magazine, believes it is as high as 10 percent.[xxx] Figures from psychological surveys in the UK place estimates even higher. Psychologist Clive Boddy has argued that the psychopathological behavior of financial executives was a major cause for the 2007 economic collapse. He also notes that individuals with the strongest psychopathic tendencies are those who tend to be promoted fastest.[xxxi] Research supports this claim. In a survey of 500 senior executives in the US and UK, 26 percent observed firsthand wrongdoing in the workplace and 24 percent believed that it was necessary for professionals in the financial sector to engage in unethical and even illegal conduct in order to be successful. Sixteen percent said they would commit insider trading if they were certain they could get away with it, and 30 percent said that the pressures of compensation plans were an incentive to break the law.[xxxii]

    Today, this banking elite owns the lives of millions of Americans by imprisoning them in debt. In the third quarter of 2013, consumer indebtedness reached $11.28 trillion.[xxxiii]  2014 and every year thereafter will see household debt increase. The majority of this debt, in the form of mortgages and outstanding home equity, student loans, auto loans, and credit cards, is money owed to the banking industry. It is by keeping the masses indebted, securing government allegiance and protection to extract money from citizens, that bankers are able to control the economy.

    In a letter to Federal Reserve Chairman Ben Bernanke, Representative Alan Grayson and three of his Congressional colleagues raised their concern over large investment banks taking over the real economy.  According to their investment relations reports, both banks are engaged in the “production, storage, transportation, marketing and trading of numerous commodities.”[xxxiv] These include crude oil and oil products, natural gas, coal, electric power, agricultural and food products, and precious and rare metals. Additionally, JP Morgan markets electric power and “owns electricity generating facilities in the US and Europe.”[xxxv] Goldman Sachs has entered the uranium mining market.  According to Rep. Grayson, none of these activities have anything to do with the business of banking, and there is no indication that the Fed or any other agency is regulating these irregular business undertakings.[xxxvi]

    In early 2013, the Swiss Federal Institute of Technology in Zurich conducted the most thorough analysis of the financial ties between over 43,000 transnational banks and corporations. This was the first empirical study to identify a network where global power and wealth is most heavily concentrated. Their startling results observed that a small faction of 147 super companies controls over 40 percent of the entire transnational network, with an additional 36 million companies below them.  Predictably, almost all of the 147 super companies were financial institutions, with Barclays, Capital Group, the Vanguard Group, Deutsche Bank, JP Morgan, Goldman Sachs, Credit Suisse, and Bank of New York among the top of the list.[xxxvii]  With financial instruments of speculative trade insufficient to satisfy greed, such companies have every incentive to move into new territory, particularly resources and services that are essential to life. This includes fuel, water, food and minerals. As it stands, at least twenty-five major US companies have more wealth than entire countries.[xxxviii] The prediction can be suggested that with current trends, the largest global banks will become the world’s most powerful “nations,” acting with complete autonomy outside of international laws that apply to sovereign states.  As corporate groupthink increases and infiltrates the larger civilian community, the transnationalist mind will persist as a breeding ground for psychopathology.

    Conclusion

    The consequences of today’s cowboy free market culture have sent the US middle class and economic mobility spiraling downward. Laid off workers have nowhere to use their skills to earn a livelihood for themselves and their families. Consequently, the worker is unable to meet expenditures and falls into a lower income bracket or poverty.  Mortgage defaults, credit card payments, and loans drag him further into debt. Without work and hence unable to pay taxes, the state, county and town suffer. In turn, local entities are forced to reduce their workforce and public services. The final result is the decline in the national quality of life, and the gradual deterioration of the US.  The inequality gap widens as the wealthy get richer and more powerful, while growing numbers of families become destitute.

    A clear conflict exists between the values that we promote in the home and those values that are rewarded in the workplace. Unless we apply the same moral requirements to governments and corporations as we do to ourselves, friends, and families, the revolving door at the top of society will continue to consolidate power and wealth at any cost.

    [i] Fessler, Pam. “How Many Americans Live In Poverty?” NPR. http://www.npr.org/blogs/money/2013/11/06/243498168/how-many-americans-live-in-poverty (accessed December 2, 2013).

    [ii] National Center for Children in Poverty. “Child Poverty.” NCCP. http://www.nccp.org/topics/childpoverty.html (accessed December 1, 2013).

    [iii] Plumer, Brad. “Why are 47 million Americans on food stamps? It’s the recession — mostly.” WashingtonPost.com. http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2013/09/23/why-are-47-million-americans-on-food-stamps-its-the-recession-mostly/ (accessed December 3, 2013).

    [iv] Melendez, Eleazar. “Financial Crisis Cost Tops $22 Trillion, GAO Says.” The Huffington Post. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/02/14/financial-crisis-cost-gao_n_2687553.html (accessed December 3, 2013).

    [v] Moench, Brian. “Death by Corporation, Part II: Companies as Cancer Cells.” Truthout. http://www.truth-out.org/news/item/17705-death-by-corporation-part-ii-companies-as-cancer-cells (accessed December 3, 2013).

    [vi]  “The real jobs numbers: 41% of America unemployed, 1 in 3 doesn’t want work at all – RT USA.” RT.com. http://rt.com/usa/jobs-us-employment-welfare-749/ (accessed December 3, 2013).

    [vii] Vellacott, Chris. “Super Rich Hold $32 Trillion in Offshore Havens.” Reuters.com. http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/07/22/us-offshore-wealth-idUSBRE86L03U20120722 (accessed December 13, 2003).

    [viii] “Barack Obama’s Bundlers.” Opensecrets RSS. http://www.opensecrets.org/pres12/bundlers.php

    [ix] “What is ALEC?.” ALEC Exposed. http://www.alecexposed.org/wiki/What_is_ALEC%3F#Who_funds_ALEC.3F (accessed December 3, 2013).

    [x] Nichols, John. “ALEC Exposed.” The Nation. http://www.thenation.com/article/161978/alec-exposed# (accessed December 3, 2013).

    [xi] “History.” ALEC American Legislative Exchange Council. http://www.alec.org/about-alec/history/ (accessed December 3, 2013).

    [xii] Ibid.

    [xiii] “Where Does the Money Go? Federal Budget 101.” National Priorities Project. http://nationalpriorities.org/budget-basics/federal-budget-101/spending/ (accessed December 2, 2013).

    [xiv] The Economist Newspaper. “The Trouble with Tax Reform.” The Economist. http://www.economist.com/blogs/democracyinamerica/2011/02/corporate-tax_reform (accessed December 3, 2013).

    [xv] “Daily Kos.” : Buying Elections: Campaign Spending TRIPLES Since Citizens United. If You Can’t Win, Cheat + News!. http://www.dailykos.com/story/2013/03/11/1193246/-Buying-Elections-Campaign-Spending-TRIPLES-Since-Citizens-United-If-You-Can-t-Win-Cheat# (accessed December 3, 2013).

    [xvi] Stein, Sam. “Top Bailout Recipients Spent $71 Million On Lobbying In Year Since Bailout.” The Huffington Post. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/11/05/top-bailout-recipients-sp_n_346877.html (accessed December 3, 2013).

    [xvii] Barofski, Neil. “Where the Bank Bailout Went Wrong.” NYTimes.com. http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/30/opinion/30barofsky.html (accessed March 12, 2013).

    [xviii] Murphy, Dan. “Booz Allen Hamilton, federal contractor.” Christian Science Monitor. http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Security-Watch/Backchannels/2013/0610/Booz-Allen-Hamilton-federal-contractor (accessed December 4, 2013).

    [xix] Jonathan Fahey, Adam Goldman. “NSA Leak Highlights Key Role of Private Contractors,”  Huffington Post. June 10, 2013  http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/06/10/nsa-leak-contractors_n_3418876.html

    [xx] Barton Gellman, Greg Miller.  “US Spy Network’s Successes, Failures and Objectives Detailed in ‘Black Budget’ Summary,”  Washington Post. August 29. 2013  http://articles.washingtonpost.com/2013-08-29/world/41709796_1_intelligence-community-intelligence-spending-national-intelligence-program

    [xxi] Aubrey Bloomfield. “Booz Allen Hamilton: 70% of the US Intelligence Budget Goes to Private Contractors,”  Policymic.  http://www.policymic.com/articles/48845/booz-allen-hamilton-70-of-the-u-s-intelligence-budget-goes-to-private-contractors

    [xxii] Waterman, Shaun. “NSA chief’s admission of misleading numbers adds to Obama administration blunders.” Washington Times. http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2013/oct/2/nsa-chief-figures-foiled-terror-plots-misleading/ (accessed December 3, 2013).

    [xxiii] Ibid.

    [xxiv] Nader, Ralph. “Corporate espionage undermines democracy.” The Great Debate RSS. http://blogs.reuters.com/great-debate/2013/11/26/corporate-espionage-undermines-democracy/ (accessed December 2, 2013).

    [xxv] “Groupthink in Service of Government.” BATR. http://www.batr.org/wrack/080413.html (accessed December 3, 2013).

    [xxvi] “How Does America’s Middle Class Rank Globally?.” A Lightning War for Liberty. http://libertyblitzkrieg.com/2013/07/23/how-does-americas-middle-class-rank-globally-27/ (accessed December 3, 2013).

    [xxvii] BATR.  Ibid.

    [xxviii] Hare, Robert. “Focus on Psychopathy.” FBI. http://www.fbi.gov/stats-services/publications/law-enforcement-bulletin/july-2012/focus-on-psychopathy (accessed December 1, 2013).

    [xxix] Bercovici, Jeff. “Why (Some) Psychopaths Make Great CEOs.” Forbes. http://www.forbes.com/sites/jeffbercovici/2011/06/14/why-some-psychopaths-make-great-ceos/ (accessed December 2, 2013).

    [xxx] Decovny, Sherree. “The Financial Psychopath Next Door.” CFA Magazine, Mar. – Apr. 2012. http://www.cfapubs.org/doi/pdf/10.2469/cfm.v23.n2.20 (accessed December 3, 2013).

    [xxxi] Boddy, Clive R.. “The Corporate Psychopaths Theory Of The Global Financial Crisis.” Journal of Business Ethics 102, no. 2 (2011): 255-259.

    [xxxii] LaCapra, Lauren Tara, and Leslie Adler. “Many Wall Street Executives Say Wrongdoing is Necessary: Survey.” Reuters. http://uk.reuters.com/article/2012/07/10/business-us-wallstreet-survey-idUKBRE86906G20120710 (accessed December 3, 2013).

    [xxxiii] Salas Gage, Caroline. “Household Debt in US Climbed 1.1% in Third Quarter, Fed Says.” Bloomberg.com. http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-11-14/household-debt-in-u-s-climbed-1-1-in-third-quarter-fed-says.html (Accessed December 4, 2013.)

    [xxxiv]“Giant Banks Take Over Real Economy As Well As Financial System … Enabling Manipulation On a Vast Scale.” Washingtons Blog. http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2013/07/giant-banks-take-over-real-economy-as-well-as-financial-system-enabling-manipulation-on-a-vast-scale.html (accessed December 3, 2013).

    [xxxv] Hopkins, Cheyenne. “Fed Said to Review Commodities at Goldman, Morgan Stanley.” Bloomberg.com. http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-10-01/fed-said-to-review-commodities-at-goldman-morgan-stanley.html (accessed December 3, 2013).

    [xxxvi] “Giant Banks Take Over Real Economy As Well As Financial System … Enabling Manipulation On a Vast Scale.” Washingtons Blog. http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2013/07/giant-banks-take-over-real-economy-as-well-as-financial-system-enabling-manipulation-on-a-vast-scale.html (accessed December 3, 2013).

    [xxxvii] Upbin, Bruce. “The 147 Companies That Control Everything.” Forbes. http://www.forbes.com/sites/bruceupbin/2011/10/22/the-147-companies-that-control-everything/ (accessed December 3, 2013).

    [xxxviii] “25 US Mega Corporations: Where They Rank If They Were Countries.” Business Insider. http://www.businessinsider.com/25-corporations-bigger-tan-countries-2011-6 (accessed December 2, 2013).

        [Null]

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  • Sun, Dec 18, 2016 - 6:07pm

    #34
    treebeard

    treebeard

    Status Bronze Member (Offline)

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    Posts: 551

    The Matrix

    Have compassion for those still stuck in the matrix

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  • Sun, Dec 18, 2016 - 7:47pm

    #35

    sand_puppy

    Status Platinum Member (Online)

    Joined: Apr 13 2011

    Posts: 1911

    Conspiracy Theory Discussion Corner

    (If a person doesn't enjoy "crazy conspiracy theories," please skip this and return to your gardening or whatever gives your life meaning.)

    I most certainly do not know if this is accurate.  But it sounds to me like a strategist has thought lots of this through.

    December 16, 2016 "Information Clearing House" – "Moon Of Alabama" –

    • There is an "elite" coup attempt underway against the U.S. President-elect Trump.
    • The coup is orchestrated by the camp of Hillary Clinton in association with the CIA and neoconservative powers in Congress.
    • The plan is to use the CIA's "Russia made Trump the winner" nonsense to swing the electoral college against him. The case would then be bumped up to Congress. Major neocon and warmonger parts of the Republicans could then move the presidency to Clinton or, if that fails, put Trump's vice president-elect Mike Pence onto the throne. The regular bipartisan war business, which a Trump presidency threatens to interrupt, could continue.
    • Should the coup succeed violent insurrections in the United States are likely to ensue with unpredictable consequences.

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  • Sun, Dec 18, 2016 - 9:06pm

    Reply to #1
    Luke Moffat

    Luke Moffat

    Status Silver Member (Offline)

    Joined: Jan 25 2014

    Posts: 365

    Outstanding!

    [quote=mememonkey]

    Choose your clown,  it's still a fucking circus. 

    [/quote]

    Best thing I've read in ages. You should make that a bumper sticker!

    All the best,

    Luke

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  • Sun, Dec 18, 2016 - 10:47pm

    Reply to #1
    David Phillips

    David Phillips

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    Posts: 111

    A Democrat Republic, it's a blend

    Michael, 

    But they also gave the people the power to elect those representatives (not just the elite land owners republics in the past), and the right to change the Constitution.  So it's intended to be a blend of a democracy and a republic, not just a pure republic.

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  • Sun, Dec 18, 2016 - 11:14pm

    Reply to #1
    David Phillips

    David Phillips

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    Posts: 111

    Misis Institute (Austrian Economics) praises Hilter's economics

    Mememonkey,

    I simply pointed out that your “F**k Democracy, it’s mob rule statement is nearly identical to what Hitler said.  You are the one writing paragraphs about how I feel, thinking inside your box, and showing how much you are filled with the very Russian anti globalist propaganda I have been researching.  Every comment I have posted here are my own thoughts.  To prevent losing half written comments on the site (which has happened a time or two), I write them up in Google Drive, then cut and paste.  But all of my comments have been my research and observations and not agitprop spam as you think.  (Thanks for calling it hard hitting though.) (Since you press the matter.  If I were Dugin, I would help fund someone like Chris to help promote anti-Fed propaganda to the intellect crowd.  And if that were true, if I was Chris, I wouldn’t respond either.)  I have responded to every question I know of, but I don’t have the time to get into a discussion with everyone on every matter.

     

    I know that Canada balanced their budget along with Clinton in 96 and kept it balanced until 2008, even with a socialized health care program, like most democratic countries.  I know that Reagan, and both Bushes greatly increased annual deficits and that both Clinton and Obama dramatically decreased them.  And yes I know that the Democrats are corrupt too, they are at least half as corrupt as the Republicans who worship corruption.  I see through every Democratic corruption you mentioned, but I also see how much corruption on the Republican side that you are leaving out.  And you accuse me of  living in a fairytale propaganda matrix where you think one side of the the corporate plutocracy is noble.”  I see right through your Russian anti globalist propaganda too.  You are making your love for Russia quite clear.  But the people I have met from Kosovo love the Americans for saving them from the bloodshed.  The people they blamed the most was the media pushing hate propaganda on the airwaves.  Like what I see in the US, especially with Alt Right groups like Breitbart and Infowars, the very media Dugin is supporting.

    I disagreed with Bush and Cheney’s illegal war so much that I migrated to Canada.  It was an 8 year plan.  I finished up my career as an environmental teacher where my students were very familiar with this graph from the Crash Course.

    So while all of those things awful things you just blame the Democrats for (but hardly the Republicans) were going on, I was teaching 9th graders about the living planet we are destroying, the energy choices that are available to us, and how much they cost.  I told them how conventional oil has peaked, that there is plenty of unconventional oil, but most of it is too expensive to get out of the ground.  I shared T Bones Pickens estimate that it would cost $14 trillion to make America energy independent with oil and gas.  And then I showed them how America could be energy independent for $4.5 trillion using energy conservation and alternative supply instead.  

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lT-g__695Go

    All to give them a better understanding of their world so that they could make the wisest choices for their future.  If I had my way we would have skipped all of those wars (including Russia and the drones) you just mentioned and spent $4.5 trillion on alternatives to give them a sustainable future.  But that future has been stolen from them.  Trump is going to further undermine the scientific community, make a bunch of profits for his buddies in the oil industry, and ship those kids I taught off to fight endless wars that destroy their future.

    When Obama got elected, the few people I told, kept saying that I should cancel my Canadian plans.  But I stuck it because I knew the impossible position the US was now in, that the Democrats would be edged on into more wars to prove their toughness, and that the very war profiteers that talked us into the mess would somehow blame it on Democrats somehow, which they are now doing.

    Canada turned out to be everything I researched it to be, even better.  A well-educated population that doesn’t carry around firearms.  A socialized health care system that will ultimately save my family of four about $1.4 million over two generations in medical cost.  A well regulated banking system that is sound.  A carbon tax that works.  A neighbor that was the first to be arrested stopping the last attempt to put a pipeline through BC.  (He approached the friendliest looking policeman and asked to be arrested please.)  When I get citizenship  I will be able to vote in both countries, thus doubling my voting power.  (How is that for thinking outside of the box so far?)  And BC schools just ranked #1 in reading, #2 in science, and #6 in math GLOBALLY.

    https://news.gov.bc.ca/releases/2016EDUC0265-002592

    Whereas in the US, Trump just appointed Erik Prince’s (talk about war criminal) sister Betsy DeVos to privatize America’s public school system so that she can help “advance God’s Kingdom.” https://dianeravitch.net/2016/12/13/katherine-stewart-betsy-devos-and-gods-plan-for-schools-and-america/

    (The Conservative Christians are about to get the Theocracy they have been dreaming of.  The question is which side is Trump really on, the Libertarian’s no war side, or the “bomb the hell out of them” Christian side.  I would say that we are getting ready to go way deeper into debt for the many more wars.)

    I have listen to Chris cast doubts about our central banking system for nearly a decade, but when I look into the debate in Canada it is none existent .  In conversations with Canadian bankers and economist they are totally unaware of the debate raging in the US.  “Why would anyone want to ditch all of the advantages of a fractional reserve system for all of the disadvantages of a gold standard” they ask.  Upon further research (as I referenced in an earlier post) I discovered this battle to undermine the Fed goes back to 1933, when a handful of American industrialist tried to overthrow President Roosevelt and install a dictator demanding a return to the gold standard.  Sorry to rip the lid off your box, but if you research further into the Austrian school of economics and its supporters like Ron Paul, you will discovered that they are quite proud to describe themselves as the good side of Hitler’s plan.

    https://mises.org/library/hitlers-economics

    Reality is that we exist on a living planet.  Chris does a great job showing us how our energy use is destroying that living planet.  But all of our concepts about money and debt are all manmade and simply what we have led ourselves to believe.  If we put as much effort into nourishing life as we did into making money our planet and humanity would be fine.  The same thing with democracy and banking systems, if we put as much effort into nourishing and properly regulating them as we did to undermine them, they would probably work fine.  As for myself and my move to Canada, I’ve cut my trash output and driving by more than half, walk to places 10x more, all of my electricity is hydro and therefore carbon free.  And I still teach environmental science at an experimental high school to help kids make the wisest choices for the future.

     

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  • Sun, Dec 18, 2016 - 11:22pm

    Reply to #33
    David Phillips

    David Phillips

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    Posts: 111

    Great resource. Can you send a link please?

    Cello55,

    Great resource.  Can you send a link for further reference please?

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  • Mon, Dec 19, 2016 - 12:26am

    #36

    Michael_Rudmin

    Status Gold Member (Offline)

    Joined: Jun 25 2014

    Posts: 857

    David Phillips

    Agreed, it's a blend.  They gave a nod to Democracy, and it stood them well. But it is clear to me that their intentions were that they themselves should rule as described in Plato's work. 

    It's also clear to me that either Plato should have flunked out of Socrates' school, or the Republic was supposed to be satire, not taken seriously.  I used to think the latter; knowing humans for longer, I now tend towards the former.  But whatever.

    Point being, the "Democratic principles" under which some are claiming Hillary should be shoed in, are the very principles that work against changing the vote in the electoral college.  But human hypocrisy and irony show up both sides in this. 

    My feeling is that they have one last shot to try to overturn the election, and they should be allowed to try it, since that's how the game rules were set up from before this hand was played.  If Trump is too busy celebrating and loses it at the buzzer, he only has himself to blame; if Hillary's CIA doesn't overturn it here, then they need to just say, "we lost", and consider what they did wrong.

    Whatever.  I'm a sportscaster in the whole game; I have no ability to affect anything.

     

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  • Mon, Dec 19, 2016 - 12:28am

    Reply to #1
    Luke Moffat

    Luke Moffat

    Status Silver Member (Offline)

    Joined: Jan 25 2014

    Posts: 365

    Fact Checking

    [quote=David Phillips]

    Upon further research (as I referenced in an earlier post) I discovered this battle to undermine the Fed goes back to 1933, when a handful of American industrialist tried to overthrow President Roosevelt and install a dictator demanding a return to the gold standard.  Sorry to rip the lid off your box, but if you research further into the Austrian school of economics and its supporters like Ron Paul, you will discovered that they are quite proud to describe themselves as the good side of Hitler’s plan.

    https://mises.org/library/hitlers-economics

     

    [/quote]

    David,

    Just out of interest, do you actually read the information buried in the links that you post?

    From your link

    Proto-Keynesian socialist economist Joan Robinson wrote that "Hitler found a cure against unemployment before Keynes was finished explaining it."

    What were those economic policies? He suspended the gold standard, embarked on huge public-works programs like autobahns, protected industry from foreign competition, expanded credit, instituted jobs programs, bullied the private sector on prices and production decisions, vastly expanded the military, enforced capital controls, instituted family planning, penalized smoking, brought about national healthcare and unemployment insurance, imposed education standards, and eventually ran huge deficits. The Nazi interventionist program was essential to the regime's rejection of the market economy and its embrace of socialism in one country.

    And a little more from the same link

    Such programs remain widely praised today, even given their failures. They are features of every "capitalist" democracy. Keynes himself admired the Nazi economic program, writing in the foreword to the German edition to the General Theory: "[T]he theory of output as a whole, which is what the following book purports to provide, is much more easily adapted to the conditions of a totalitarian state, than is the theory of production and distribution of a given output produced under the conditions of free competition and a large measure of laissez-faire."

    Keynes's comment, which may shock many, did not come out of the blue. Hitler's economists rejected laissez-faire, and admired Keynes, even foreshadowing him in many ways. 

    The Austrian school of economics is the antithesis of Keynesian economics, i.e. fiscal discipline vs deficit spending.

     

     

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  • Mon, Dec 19, 2016 - 1:33am

    Reply to #1
    David Phillips

    David Phillips

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    Joined: Oct 29 2009

    Posts: 111

    Make that T Boone Pickens/Bannon quotes Lenin on Antiestablishme

    Oops!  Make that T Boone Pickens, not T Bones Pickens, I guess I was thinking BBQ.

    So how about you mememonkey, what have you doing to improve things, besides whipping up the anti-establishment agenda?  

    Are you as anti-establishment as Trump's Chief Strategist Steve Bannon who wants to follow in the steps of Lenin and destroy his state?  Do you want to "bring everything crashing down and destroy all of today's establishment," like Bannon?

    Sarah Kendzior reveals how close Trump and his Chief Strategist Bannon’s anti establishment intentions are to Lenin’s, when he destroyed the Russian state to rebuild the Soviet Union. https://twitter.com/sarahkendzior/status/798133651795939329/photo/1

    http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2016/08/22/steve-bannon-trump-s-top-guy-told-me-he-was-a-leninist.html

     

    Dugin wants him to.  You can listen to him tell his followers here.

    https://4threvolutionarywar.wordpress.com/2016/11/11/donald-trumps-victory-alexander-dugin/

    Dugin is saying the exact sort of stuff that you are, ya know.
     

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  • Mon, Dec 19, 2016 - 1:51am

    Reply to #1

    davefairtex

    Status Diamond Member (Offline)

    Joined: Sep 03 2008

    Posts: 3146

    a channel

    meme-

    DP is just a channel for "Dem Propaganda".  Whether he is a True Believer/Volunteer, or he has been paid to influence a collection of sites (and we here are just the lucky recipients of his attentions), it doesn't honestly matter.  The situation is, he will simply not be persuaded by any post you make.  I mean, not ever.  That's because he's not engaging here in any sort of honest dialog.  He's just acting as a partisan channel.  Engaging with him is just about as useful as talking to your TV.

    The most he will ever do is shape the content of his propaganda firehose according to the comments he receives.

    My belief, of course.

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  • Mon, Dec 19, 2016 - 3:00am

    Reply to #1

    Jim H

    Status Diamond Member (Offline)

    Joined: Jun 08 2009

    Posts: 1798

    Pitiful Partisan Apologetics

    David Phillips said (boldface mine),

    When Obama got elected, the few people I told, kept saying that I should cancel my Canadian plans.  But I stuck it because I knew the impossible position the US was now in, that the Democrats would be edged on into more wars to prove their toughness, and that the very war profiteers that talked us into the mess would somehow blame it on Democrats somehow, which they are now doing.

    I assume David meant, "egged" when he wrote edged.. but I wouldn't dare put words into anyone's pen.  

    LOL… now I have seen it all.  Hillary and Barack didn't mean to be warmongers.  They did it to prove their toughness… um.. no.. I mean they really didn't do it at all but the war profiteers did it while they weren't looking and then blamed it on them!

    This is some righteous, righteous subversive shit being doled out by DP.  Relentless and mind numbing in it's own special way.  I almost became a pro-Globalist for a moment there.  I almost threw away the special cell phone I use to talk to my Russian contact.  The steak tastes so good in the Matrix.      

     

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  • Mon, Dec 19, 2016 - 3:04am

    Reply to #31

    SagerXX

    Status Gold Member (Offline)

    Joined: Feb 11 2009

    Posts: 397

    Had the same thought

    [quote=Time2help]

    That had to be the quickest jump to Godwin's law I've seen yet.

    [/quote]

     

    I had the same thought.  Also thinking hey if Mr. P is a paid deep state troll then maybe Dr. Chris will end up on that PropOrNot list CHS got on after all.  Which I think would be a nice holiday present and make him feel appreciated.  <grin>

     

    Viva — Sager

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  • Mon, Dec 19, 2016 - 3:26am

    #37
    Time2help

    Time2help

    Status Platinum Member (Offline)

    Joined: Jun 08 2011

    Posts: 2252

    Winner

    …winner, chicken dinner David. Troll level 2 of 10. Just an opinion of course.

    <chart redacted, need a 4 or greater to rate for that>

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  • Mon, Dec 19, 2016 - 3:37am

    #38

    Jim H

    Status Diamond Member (Offline)

    Joined: Jun 08 2009

    Posts: 1798

    Orlov's take on Russian hacking...

    Priceless.

    ………Those Russians sure are clever! They managed to turn the DNC into an anti-Bernie Sanders operation, depriving him of electoral votes through a variety of underhanded practices while appealing to anti-Semitic sentiments in certain parts of the country. They managed to manipulate Donna Brazile into handing presidential debate questions to the Clinton campaign. They even managed to convince certain Ukrainian oligarchs and Saudi princes to bestow millions upon the Clinton foundation in exchange for certain future foreign policy concessions. The list of these leak-worthy Russian subterfuges goes on and on… But who can stop them?

    And so clearly the Russians had to first corrupt the Clinton Foundation, the Clinton Presidential campaign and the Democratic National Committee, just in order to render them hackworthy. But here we have a problem. You see, if you can hack into a server, so can everyone else. Suppose you leave your front door unlocked and swinging in the breeze, and long thereafter stuff goes missing. Of course you can blame the neighbor you happen to like least, but then why would anyone believe you? Anybody could have walked through that door and taken your shit. And so it is hard to do anything beyond lobbing empty accusations at Russia as far as hacking is concerned; but the charge of corrupting the incorruptible Hillary Clinton is another matter entirely.

    Because here the ultimate Russian achievement was in getting Hillary Clinton to refer to over half of her electorate as “a basket of deplorables,” and this was no mean feat. It takes a superpower to orchestrate a political blunder of this magnitude. This she did in front of an LGBT audience in New York. Now, Hillary is no spring chicken when it comes to national politics: she’s been through quite a few federal elections, and she has enough experience to know that pissing off over half of your electorate in one fell swoop is not a particularly smart thing to do. Obviously, she was somehow hypnotized into uttering these words… no doubt by a hyperintelligent space-based Russian…….

    The piece is here:  http://cluborlov.blogspot.com/2016/12/brain-parasite-gonna-eatcha.html#more

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  • Mon, Dec 19, 2016 - 3:41am

    Reply to #1
    Time2help

    Time2help

    Status Platinum Member (Offline)

    Joined: Jun 08 2011

    Posts: 2252

    Better watch those "Facts"

    [quote=Luke Moffat]

    And a little more from the same link

    Such programs remain widely praised today, even given their failures. They are features of every "capitalist" democracy. Keynes himself admired the Nazi economic program, writing in the foreword to the German edition to the General Theory: "[T]he theory of output as a whole, which is what the following book purports to provide, is much more easily adapted to the conditions of a totalitarian state, than is the theory of production and distribution of a given output produced under the conditions of free competition and a large measure of laissez-faire."

    Keynes's comment, which may shock many, did not come out of the blue. Hitler's economists rejected laissez-faire, and admired Keynes, even foreshadowing him in many ways. 

    The Austrian school of economics is the antithesis of Keynesian economics, i.e. fiscal discipline vs deficit spending.

    [/quote]

    To be fair I believe David was referring to the Australian School of Economics.

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  • Mon, Dec 19, 2016 - 3:42am

    Reply to #1

    Jim H

    Status Diamond Member (Offline)

    Joined: Jun 08 2009

    Posts: 1798

    Oh T2H....

    Now you are just edging him on. 

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  • Mon, Dec 19, 2016 - 4:12am

    Reply to #1

    SagerXX

    Status Gold Member (Offline)

    Joined: Feb 11 2009

    Posts: 397

    Jim H wrote:Now you are just

    [quote=Jim H]

    Now you are just edging him on. 

    [/quote]

     

    All this edging might push him over the egg.  

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  • Mon, Dec 19, 2016 - 5:30am

    Reply to #1

    Locksmithuk

    Status Bronze Member (Offline)

    Joined: Dec 19 2011

    Posts: 96

    Outside egg

    [quote=SagerXX]

    [quote=Jim H]

    Now you are just edging him on. 

    [/quote]

     

    All this edging might push him over the egg.  

    [/quote]

     

    Or the delivery might catch an inside edge and sail over to square egg.*

     

    *For anyone who doesn't play or understand cricket, scroll on.

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  • Mon, Dec 19, 2016 - 6:23am

    #39

    rhare

    Status Silver Member (Offline)

    Joined: Mar 29 2009

    Posts: 397

    Ignore User Button

    [quote=davefairtex]

     Engaging with him is just about as useful as talking to your TV.

    [/quote]

    The Ignore User button is a great thing!  Peoples right to speak does not mean a right to be heard.  I find the ignore user button great for reducing my time spent with people like DP.   There are more important things to do than arguing with a stone.  Or if you prefer to look at it, you already get that same propaganda from 5 minutes with a television. cheeky

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  • Mon, Dec 19, 2016 - 7:32am

    #40

    sand_puppy

    Status Platinum Member (Online)

    Joined: Apr 13 2011

    Posts: 1911

    Responding to Electoral College Upset Tomorrow

    Though I don't think that there will probably be an Electoral College black swan event, there might be.  I think that this would be a pretty big thing should it occur.

    Are any of you guys and gals planning on a specific response should Trump unexpectedly NOT win the electoral college vote?

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  • Mon, Dec 19, 2016 - 7:51am

    Reply to #39
    reflector

    reflector

    Status Bronze Member (Offline)

    Joined: Aug 20 2011

    Posts: 252

    RE: Ignore User Button

    [quote=rhare]

    [quote=davefairtex]

     Engaging with him is just about as useful as talking to your TV.

    [/quote]

    The Ignore User button is a great thing!  Peoples right to speak does not mean a right to be heard.  I find the ignore user button great for reducing my time spent with people like DP.   There are more important things to do than arguing with a stone.  Or if you prefer to look at it, you already get that same propaganda from 5 minutes with a television. cheeky

    [/quote]

    great call, rhare, i'd completely forgotten about the ignore user button, haven't had to use it since that "amorphous blob" troll showed up earlier this year.

    dp is an odd one, to try to put forth the view that libertarians are a front for facism, lol?

    a person with an iota of critical thinking skills would examine that concept and possibly conclude: a group that staunchly supports individual liberty, is a front for a group that supports the complete elimination of individual liberty? hmmm, somehow that doesn't add up.

    not sure if he's deliberately trolling or something isn't quite right in his head, but, not my problem any more, ignored him now and better to focus on real issues.

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  • Mon, Dec 19, 2016 - 8:19am

    Reply to #40
    reflector

    reflector

    Status Bronze Member (Offline)

    Joined: Aug 20 2011

    Posts: 252

    RE; Responding to Electoral College Upset Tomorrow

    [quote=sand_puppy]

    Though I don't think that there will probably be an Electoral College black swan event, there might be.  I think that this would be a pretty big thing should it occur.

    Are any of you guys and gals planning on a specific response should Trump unexpectedly NOT win the electoral college vote?

    [/quote]

    i haven't been following it too closely, but i'm assuming a reversal won't happen from the headline i scanned in zh:

    http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-12-17/harvard-professor-admits-his-efforts-turn-electoral-college-against-trump-have-faile

    (side note:  i was disappointed to see larry lessig engage in this effort, i'd always considered him one of the good guys for his role in fighting against abusive copyright laws and support of the free software foundation)

    though pcr warns that a coup is still possible:

    http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-12-17/paul-craig-roberts-warns-cia-led-coup-against-american-democracy-unfolding-our-eyes

    a coup seems to be an outside chance, but if it happens it will have a huge impact – civil war? installation of hrc followed by war with russia?

    if it does happen tomorrow, i'll drop what i'm doing, go stock up on ammo, start looking for a possible retreat location in the southern hemisphere, and review this in preparation for an hrc presidency/dictatorship:

    https://www.peakprosperity.com/insider/102965/my-personal-preparations-nuclear-war

     

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  • Mon, Dec 19, 2016 - 9:50am

    Reply to #40

    thc0655

    Status Platinum Member (Offline)

    Joined: Apr 27 2010

    Posts: 1465

    Electoral College upset

    I'll grab my rifle, run outside to my front porch, and look around (again). If there's still no one out there with me, I'll know it's still too early. cool

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  • Mon, Dec 19, 2016 - 12:08pm

    #41

    Snydeman

    Status Member (Offline)

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    Posts: 505

    Popcorn

    I have to admit, I popped popcorn before I came back to this thread.

     

    Does that make me a horrible person?

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  • Mon, Dec 19, 2016 - 12:53pm

    Reply to #40

    Michael_Rudmin

    Status Gold Member (Offline)

    Joined: Jun 25 2014

    Posts: 857

    Black swans and gray swans

    Umm… it should depend on the nature of the event. Suppose all the electors came out, and said, “we decided to go Hillary; some of us are returning to our states to report for ninety days in jail; but it was our own free will that led us to this”… I’d call that a white swan. Despite the fact that I might loathe the result.
    Suppose the CIA had threatened their families: I’d call that a gray swan.

    Suppose “Russian paratroopers” or “muslim militants” slaughtered them or something? That would be a black swan.

    Either way, I don’t do revolution. I don’t do guns. I don’t do killing. Even at cost to my and my family’s lives.

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  • Mon, Dec 19, 2016 - 12:54pm

    Reply to #39

    Tycer

    Status Silver Member (Offline)

    Joined: Apr 26 2009

    Posts: 206

    reflector wrote:not sure He

    [quote=reflector]

     not sure He is undoubtedly deliberately trolling and something isn't quite right in his head, but, not my problem any more, ignored him now and better to focus on real issues.

    [/quote] There. Fixed it for you.

    If the rest of you would please use that ignore button, those of us who use the Recent Comments column to keep up would not have to keep hitting the More button and wade through your wasted energy.

    To be fair to you, rhetoric is the final stage of trivium learning and you've all done marvelously at solidifying your knowledge by crafting your responses to the Ignore this user so well. I have learned from those responses.

    Cheers,

    Tycer

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  • Mon, Dec 19, 2016 - 2:00pm

    Reply to #1
    David Phillips

    David Phillips

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    Posts: 111

    Mises liked Italian Fascism, but warned about it taking over

    Luke,

    On that particular link, I was in hurry and didn’t read over it as carefully as I should.  I was mostly shooting from the hip from old research.  Now that I pulled out my old files, please allow me to clarify.  Mises approved of Italian fascism, especially for suppressing the leftist elements. But he viewed it as an emergency makeshift and said it would prove fatal if it grew into something more.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ludwig_von_Mises

    Unfortunately for Mises, that’s exactly what happened when Hitler took over the fascist movement later.  Being Jewish he was forced to flee Europe to America where he became very critical of Hitler's fascism.  The same story can be said for the American industrialist that originally supported Hitler.  They were afraid of the Soviet Union expanding into Germany so that financed a strong man into power and made a lot of money doing so (the American stock market sucked during the 30’s, plus the German dividends paid extraordinarily well, considering they had free labor with the slave camps).  It didn’t end well for them either when Hitler made a deal with the Soviet Union to split Poland instead.

     

    One documentary I watched said that economics was a secondary issue to Hitler, he was much more interested in controlling people politically and socially.  His economic policies tended to drift from one thing to the next.  That would explain why Mises and the American industrialist that liked Mussolini's corporately controlled state (which is what the US has today) were interested in fascism at first, but when Hitler took it over and it went too far, it turned into the fatal error Mises warned about.

     

    Hitler may have suspended the gold standard in Germany like Roosevelt did.  But the American industrialists wanted that gold standard back.  So in 1933, they tried to raise a 500,000 private army made of disgruntled WWI veterans to overthrow Roosevelt, just like Mussolini and Hitler had done.  Fortunately the person they got to head their army, Smedley Butler was secretly appalled by their plans and ultimately turned them in.  Butler said that they wanted to make him a dictator and that they wanted him to return the United States to the gold standard.  (references on previous post)

     

    Like many on this site, Mises didn’t care for democracy either, he felt that it was incompatible with wealth creation and limited the degree of liberty individuals in society actually enjoyed.  I prefer more balanced views myself, the democratic republic thing where it is a blend.  I don’t really see the Austrian school of economics being the exact opposite of Keynesian economics.  Sure, Mises and Hayek’s free market model will create more wealth, but it will be in a boom and bust fashion that ultimately concentrates the wealth even more.  The main idea behind Keynesian economics as I understand it is to smooth out that boom and bust of the business cycle.  Yes, it creates debt during the bust, but it’s supposed to be paid back during the booms.  As a member of the middle class that sounds like a good idea to me.  If we paid the debt off during the booms like we should, maybe the system would work.  (Actually Clinton and Obama greatly reduced the annual deficits, they just aren't given credit for it.)

    I understand the system’s need for perpetual growth which is a central problem, but it seems like we could develop some sort of system that could smooth the business cycle for a slowing economy too.  Instead of a gold standard, I like to toy with the idea of a resource standard.  Why just value gold, why not all of earth’s resources?  That way the amount of money is linked with the planetary resources themselves.  To me a balanced approach seems to work best. Government works best for things like roads, schools, and health care.  But most everything else is best served by the private sector.  Getting the Evangelicals to start caring about the poor like Jesus told them to do would help a lot too.

    In 1998, the Mises Institute moved to Auburn because of the lower cost of living, that “good ol’ Southern hospitality” and the fact that the “Southerners have always been distrustful of government.”  In 2000, the Southern Poverty Law Center “Intelligence Report” categorized the Institute as Neo-Confederate because it “devoted to a radical libertarian view of government and economics” for publishing a revisionist history of the Civil War saying the conflict was more about tariffs than slavery.  Growing up in the South myself I can say that the accusation is definitely true.  I’ve heard Southerners say that since the Confederate flag campaigns of the 70’s in response to the Civil Right movement of the 60’s.  I heard fellow classmates and some teachers repeat the propaganda saying that the war was over State’s rights, not slavery, when it was definitely over slavery.  If you look at each state’s Declaration of Succession they say nothing about state’s rights and everything about slavery.  Colonel Ty Seidule, Professor of History at the United States Military Academy at West Point, is the best one to settle that debate.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pcy7qV-BGF4

     

    The Mises Institute moved down South to help reaggravated the left over hatred of the Civil War, just like Nixon’s Southern Strategy intended to do.  Shame on them.  That’s a really bad idea.  You just might rekindle a Civil War if that is your strategy.  And look where we are now.  People on this site talking about marching on Washington with their guns tomorrow if the election doesn’t go their way with the Electoral College.

    http://www.nytimes.com/packages/html/books/phillips-southern.pdf

     

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  • Mon, Dec 19, 2016 - 2:17pm

    Reply to #36
    David Phillips

    David Phillips

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    Posts: 111

    I prefer Aristotle myself

    Michael,

     

    I always liked Socrates that I see as right-brained and more inductive.  I don’t particularly care for Plato’s left-brain deductive control freak ways.  But my favorite is Aristotle because he was the first scientist and he used a balance of both.  I used to repeat his lessons on induction and deduction so that the students would be able to recognize which one they were using in the scientific process.  Using induction to dream up ideas and a hypothesis, then using deduction to test those ideas.

     

    I view democracy more from the perspective of the enlightenment.  The main leaders of the enlightenment like Voltaire were big fans of Confuses China and its reasoned based government.  Many of our founding fathers wanted to recreate a nation based upon reason like Confuses did, instead of religious dogma.  So in that view, democracy is a scientific exercise in government.  When you start digging into it, it’s scary to learn that a lot of the religious right’s attack upon science is directed at the very heart of enlightenment ideals.

     

    How about you?  Would you prefer to live in a reasoned based democracy, or a dogma based theocracy?  To me we are way better off with the reasoned based democracy, but like our founding fathers saw, that there is a need for balance.

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  • Mon, Dec 19, 2016 - 2:57pm

    Reply to #1
    David Phillips

    David Phillips

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    Posts: 111

    Reality is not based upon the Matrix

    Jim,

     

    Yes I meant egged instead of edged.  I’m surprised that’s my only typo.

     

    Glenn Beck revealed that the Matrix is really big among the Russian propaganda crowd.  To be honest with you, I’ve never watched the entire trilogy.  The first one was interesting, but the others didn’t hold my attention long to watch the whole movie.  Lot’s of special effects I suppose, but I prefer content myself.  I would much rather build my reality upon documentaries, which I have watched a lot of.

     

    You guys have me stereotyped all wrong.  I don’t support any of the war crimes you talked about or blindly support Hillary and Obama.  I voted with my feet because of those war crimes to a country that has a much better human rights record.  Obama should have ended the Bush Tax cuts when he could, not try further privatize our public schools, and definitely shouldn’t have killed people from the sky with drones.  But most of the Conservatives I know down South are constantly complaining that the Democrats are weak on defense.  I remember hearing Fox News blame Clinton for not killing Bin Laden with a drone, when armed drones didn’t even exist yet.  And now the Conservatives are blaming Obama for using them.  

     

    Now I’m hearing Conservatives saying that Trump is tough and will straighten Putin out, when Trump is making deals with Putin.  Talk about twisting the truth out of perspective.  Bush cheated to get elected, lied us into two unnecessary wars, and blew the budget giving tax cuts to the war profiteers.  Iraq asked us to leave because Erik Prince’s private army was allowed to shoot up anyone they pleased with immunity, which they did.  When Obama pulled out of Iraq according to the plan, the Republican blame Obama for leaving Iraq and destabilizing the region.  Then they blamed Obama for being too weak on Russia and Syria.  Now he’s blamed for being too rough on Russian and Syria.  It makes as much sense as the Matrix.  Multitudes of special effects propaganda, but no real substance.  You’re right that both are ultimately to blame and that’s why I migrated, but you’re wrong to place the majority of the blame on the Democrats when the Republicans pride themselves to be the warmongering party.

    But I think that the evangelical desire for manifest destiny drives America’s aggressions more than liberal globalism.  I know that Nixon and Kissinger’s desire to create a world currency with the petrodollar has played a major role before the violence, but that’s driven by manifest destiny too.  That is one of the biggest difference between the US and Canada.  The US thinks that it needs to conquer the world to share its good, like Plato wanted.  In Canada, they put their efforts into making a better Canada, and setting a good example.  I estimate that it reduces the stress in society by about 30%.  How would you like to have 30% more time to exercise or spend with your family?

     

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  • Mon, Dec 19, 2016 - 4:20pm

    Reply to #1

    Jim H

    Status Diamond Member (Offline)

    Joined: Jun 08 2009

    Posts: 1798

    Manifest destiny vs. Neocons

    DP said,

    But I think that the evangelical desire for manifest destiny drives America’s aggressions more than liberal globalism.  I know that Nixon and Kissinger’s desire to create a world currency with the petrodollar has played a major role before the violence, but that’s driven by manifest destiny too.  That is one of the biggest difference between the US and Canada.  The US thinks that it needs to conquer the world to share its good, like Plato wanted.  In Canada, they put their efforts into making a better Canada, and setting a good example.  I estimate that it reduces the stress in society by about 30%.  How would you like to have 30% more time to exercise or spend with your family?

    You are distracting blame for our warfare state away from the Neocon/Globalist deep state factions and toward anything else you can think of;  Manifest destiny, spreading, "good", etc.  I will follow the lead of others and put you on ignore sir. 

    As a counter to the prop. noise you offer DP, I will post this link which well explains the reality.. I mean the REAL reality as seen by those who have been able to extract themselves from the (propaganda) matrix;

    Must Read of the Day – ‘Sorry, Not Sorry: Neither the Media Nor Their Owners are Going to Change’

    Despite some interesting caterwauling about identity politics and the white poor, the MSM continued to miss the connection between the anger of the working class and the imperialism of the ruling class. The former is made poorer because of the latter. Spending on war usually means not spending on society. And the media has done yeoman’s work enabling both, principally by justifying nearly every imperial war as humanitarian necessity and erasing the working class from the American tableaux (except when stereotyping them as illiterate bigots, the vieux jeu herd that Friedman warmly chides, “Suck on this!”). Not understanding populist indigestion to the rancid policy platter it’s been serving up for years, what does the establishment media do? Continue shilling for imperialism, largely by spreading misinformation about Syria and ratcheting up the Russian threat with libelous claims.

    This is important because, short of sustained media support, backing for imperial warfare would collapse; no imperial war can sustain itself in the presence of a free press. The Syrian war, or at least our role in it, could’ve ended a long time ago if the MSM had done their job and challenged the White House on any number of fronts. They might have, and might still do if they wanted, pointed out how the Assad government’s rejection of a Qatari oil pipeline immediately preceded the eruption of violent “protests” in eastern Syria. Mr. President, was this mere coincidence or was this pipeline the backbone of our plan to unhitch Europe from Russian energy and destroy the Russian economy? They might have asked President Obama why the CIA was arming, training, and funding intolerant jihadist terrorists in Jordan

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  • Mon, Dec 19, 2016 - 5:45pm

    Reply to #1
    Luke Moffat

    Luke Moffat

    Status Silver Member (Offline)

    Joined: Jan 25 2014

    Posts: 365

    Final One from Me

    [quote=David Phillips]

    Luke,

    On that particular link, I was in hurry and didn’t read over it as carefully as I should.  I was mostly shooting from the hip from old research.  Now that I pulled out my old files, please allow me to clarify.  Mises approved of Italian fascism, especially for suppressing the leftist elements. But he viewed it as an emergency makeshift and said it would prove fatal if it grew into something more.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ludwig_von_Mises

    [/quote]

    OK, final one for me and then I'm done like the others. From the whole chapter (and for those actually interested in Mises views on fascism);

    Repression by brute force is always a confession of the inability to make use of the better weapons of the intellect—better because they alone give promise of final success. This is the fundamental error from which Fascism suffers and which will ultimately cause its downfall. The victory of Fascism in a number of countries is only an episode in the long series of struggles over the problem of property.

    So much for the domestic policy of Fascism. That its foreign policy, based as it is on the avowed principle of force in international relations, cannot fail to give rise to an endless series of wars that must destroy all of modern civilization requires no further discussion. To maintain and further raise our present level of economic development, peace among nations must be assured.

    I can't see anything there that says Mises approved of fascism (Italian or otherwise). And using the word "research" when all you're doing is smashing "Mises fascism" into google is really pathetic. Like the others, I'm bored of doing your critical thinking for you. Ignored…

     

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  • Mon, Dec 19, 2016 - 8:22pm

    #42
    Time2help

    Time2help

    Status Platinum Member (Offline)

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    Posts: 2252

    Ditto

    Propaganda has a useful half-life. You will find most here have a low tolerance threshold for amateur hour.
    Ignored.

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  • Mon, Dec 19, 2016 - 9:06pm

    Reply to #1
    David Phillips

    David Phillips

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    Posts: 111

    NeoCons, Globalist, Deep state driven by Manifest Destiny too

    To clarify, I am not trying to distract blame from the NeCon /Globalists deep state factions, but I would say that those are driven by manifest destiny too.

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  • Mon, Dec 19, 2016 - 9:21pm

    Reply to #36

    Michael_Rudmin

    Status Gold Member (Offline)

    Joined: Jun 25 2014

    Posts: 857

    The religious right...

    … I am religious right.
    That said, I don’t support Trump; I have libertarian tendencies, but am not libertarian; I think AGW is a reality.

    I do homeschool; I have shied away from several vaccines, including refusing the DTP until they brought in the DTAP (call me an early adopter).

    Yet, I also support the right of creationists and ID’ers to pursue their theories. What gives? I find that science is best driven when everyone isn’t engaged in groupthink.

    Sometimes it takes an ID person to say “eyes across the spectrum? Your theory doesn’t make sense” to drive evolution theory toward viral-DNA-transfer theory.

    Your question misses the mark with me, though. I’m a Catholic: we believe that reason is only properly used in service of faith. So we can’t have a reason-based dictatorship. FWIW, such a dictatorship would be insanely limited in its ability to decide on anything, or in fact would be using reason in service of want.

    Yet neither can I say I want a theocratic dictatorship, solely because our ability to get theology right is so limited and damaged. Therefore, I like freedom.

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  • Mon, Dec 19, 2016 - 10:28pm

    #43
    David Phillips

    David Phillips

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    Posts: 111

    Here’s more on Mises from

    Here’s more on Mises from Wikipedia.  In 1925, Mussolini dropped all pretense of democracy in Italy and established a dictatorship.  Mises is criticized for approving of Mussolini’s dictatorship to suppress the left in his 1927 book entitled Liberalism. But he did warn of it growing out of control, which it did.

     

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ludwig_von_Mises

     

    The place where Mises's influence hits home for me is when they moved to the South where they are trying to rewrite the history of the Civil War.  That's enough for me to show who they really are.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ludwig_von_Mises_Institute

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  • Tue, Dec 20, 2016 - 12:53pm

    Reply to #36
    David Phillips

    David Phillips

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    Posts: 111

    Are you familiar with Sabbath Economics?

    Michael,

    I’m a big Jesus fan myself, but I see Christianity as something different that was developed more by Constantine 1,700 years ago.  Jesus was a spread the wealth around pacifist, Constantine wanted to concentrate wealth and was more warlike.

    Are you familiar with Sabbath Economics?  It first originated with Moses, when he had to manage feeding thousand of people in the desert, teaching that there is great abundance if we only take what we need.  A Jewish philosophy that values God's creation and encourages us to live in harmony with nature, and values community over individual profits.

     

    To prevent the slavery they had just escaped from happening again, Sabbath Economics also called for debt forgiveness every 50 years with the Jewish tradition of a Jubilee.  It essentially redistributes wealth every other generation, instead allowing wealth to concentrate to the point of enslaving others or bloody revolutions.

    Many of Jesus's teachings come to light when viewed through the Jewish tradition of Sabbath Economics.  Like in the Lord's Prayer when he says "Forgive our debts, as we forgive our debtors" and "On Earth as it is in Heaven."  Another example is the "good news" Jesus spoke of was the Jubilee tradition of debt forgiveness.  How many in today's world would view debt forgiveness as good news, especially if it was a big part of their religion tradition that they didn't know about?

    http://www.sabbatheconomics.org/Sabbath_Economics_Collaborative/Home.html

    The difference can be seen in the word sin (hamartia) and how it is translated.  In Greek hamartia means to “fall short,” like an arrow missing its target or a mortal who falls short of the perfection of God.  But in the Aramaic language Jesus was speaking at the time, the word “sin” (hamartia) means “debt.”  So when Jesus spoke of forgiving sin, he wasn’t talking about forgiving us for not being perfect, he was telling us to forgive debt and redistribute wealth for the common good with another jubilee.

    Humanity has always longed for a “Messianic Age” or “Kingdom of Heaven” where there is universal peace without crime, war, and poverty.  Humanity now has the knowledge to do that.  It is as simple as reducing inequity as the graph shows below.

    The greater equality there is among the people of a society, the closer that society is to the “Kingdom of Heaven.”  As Jesus described it in the Lord’s Prayer, “Thy Kingdom come, thy will be done, on Earth as it is in Heaven.”  

    Just as humanity has always wished for in some future Messianic Age, where it is peaceful because the crime, war, and poverty issues that have forever riddled humanity, have finally been solved.  

    This however runs counter to what I hear from the Libertarians.  I watch 3 – 4 documentaries and interviews of Mises, Ron Paul, and Rand Paul and all three went on and on saying that the concentration of wealth in a few hands was not to blame.  One even went as far to say that industrialists like Rockefellers played no part in starting wars and that the government was to blame for WWI and WWII, which is completely false (notice how the government is always to blame with the libertarian crowd).  American industrialists were the ones that financed Hitler into power.  The Rockefeller at the time sold a gasoline additive throughout the war that the German air force couldn’t have gotten off the ground without.  Most of their supply trucks had Ford engines in them and those early IBM punch cards were invented specifically for Nazi Germany to help keep up with its enormous prison population.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SMKnH2BlkBA

    As for myself, I’m going to trust the teachings of Jesus on this debate, and now see this Libertarian anti-government position as the exact opposite.

     

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  • Tue, Dec 20, 2016 - 2:27pm

    #44
    Uncletommy

    Uncletommy

    Status Bronze Member (Offline)

    Joined: May 03 2014

    Posts: 524

    Serpentine logic?

    Woman: "What's it going to matter to him if we take just one apple off THAT tree?"

    Serpent:" Ya, you're right. Besides, what has He done for you, lately"?

    Perhaps the rot goes a little deeper than we all realize.

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  • Tue, Dec 20, 2016 - 7:01pm

    Reply to #44
    David Phillips

    David Phillips

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    Posts: 111

    Concept of Original Sin started with Constatine, not Jesus

    The concept of original sin was first alluded to in the 2nd century by Irenaeus, Bishop of Lyon and therefore a couple of hundred years after Jesus died.  Original sin was added by Constantine when he rewrote the religion at the Council of Lycia in 325 AD.  That’s when Jesus’s message was changed from a communal group of pacifist to wealth concentration and bloodthirsty religion it is today.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Original_sin

    I have taught way too many kids and had two of my own.  They aren’t naturally sinful and are way more genuinely friendly than the adults.  But to tell someone, “there’s something wrong with you kid, you were born that way” is a great way brainwashing people and society as a whole, which is exactly Constantine’s intentions.  If you withhold the actual truth from the public, then it is easy to manipulate with whatever false information you wish.  Like saying the concentration of wealth has nothing to do with our predicament.  Or to say that the industrials didn’t finance Hitler into power (when they did) and to continuously blame the government instead.  

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  • Tue, Dec 20, 2016 - 11:49pm

    Reply to #36

    Michael_Rudmin

    Status Gold Member (Offline)

    Joined: Jun 25 2014

    Posts: 857

    Jesus wasn't an economist.

    I have yet to see a person healed of one leg being too short by Maynard Keynes. I HAVE had that happen to one of our family friends, in prayer according to what Jesus said.
    I am completely unaware of my economic hero (as far as it can be) Freiderich Hayak, joining two places on opposite sides of the globe, so that he can be where two or more were gathered in his name (Germany), while he healed a man of MRSA that was already shutting down his organs. That did happen to a great uncle of mine, and his wife (with him here in America) therefore heard his charismatic German church praying for him. Right after that, his organs started turning back on one by one. But not by the hand of Hayak; it was Jesus who said, “where two or more are gathered in my name, there I will be; and whatever you ask will be granted” (paraphrased by memory).

    I cannot conceive of a Jesus who is not the Son of God.

    The things he said are not best interpreted as Jesus the Marxist; they are best interpreted as what he said.

    That said, I’m surely willing to acknowledge that Constantine had some bad as well as good effects. But Christianity isn’t defined by a dead emporer; Christianity is defined by the Holy Spirit, and kept alive by the same.

    Aside from that, there is every evidence that Jesus also spoke Greek. His words included quotes from the Book of Wisdom, which in turn was from the Septuagint–at the Greek Library of Alexander in Alexandria, Egypt.

    So the bit about Greek/Aramaic isn’t that cut-and-dried.

    Moreover, the CONCEPTS of sin as an offense extend all the way back through the Old Testament.

    Regarding infants and sin, sin is an offense, and children do commit offenses; they do it because they have wickedness: the desire to rule, the deire to be admired, the desire to be self-made. And wickedness DOES go back to the very first.

    I think the Bible might call it iniquity.

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  • Wed, Dec 21, 2016 - 9:29am

    Reply to #36
    David Phillips

    David Phillips

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    Joined: Oct 29 2009

    Posts: 111

    Early Christians were the welfare system in their communities

    Micheal,

    I’m glad your great uncle got better.

    The phrase “to each according to their need” originated with the apostles in the book of Acts, not Marx.

    https://www.biblegateway.com/verse/en/Acts%204%3A35

    Jesus was invited into rich people’s homes where he asked them to give their wealth away to the people he brought in off the streets.  Jesus also healed the sick for free.  I’m sure that he could have made a pile of money with his skills, but to him, that wasn’t the pathway to the Kingdom of God.  The early Christians followed his lead and were the welfare system in the Roman Empire, feeding the hungry and taking care of the less fortunate.

    http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/film/showsreligion/

    Many in this forum complain that they have been left behind by the elite.  But the thing that would help the average person out the most, socialized health care, they reject because they have been led to believe that it’s evil. It's utter nonsense, considering Jesus offered his healing powers for free.

    I was paying $600/month for a family of four in the US with $1,000s of deductibles, and a 20% – 40% copay (if you include the denials).  Financial planners figure that the average American will spend about $350,000 on medical expenses between retirement and passing on.  In BC, the single-payer system cost $150/month for basic health care, with no deductibles or copays, and they don’t have to worry about coughing up that $350,000 that would bankrupt most families.

    The doctors are of the same quality and my typical wait time to see a doctor is less than half as long as it was for me in the US.  The people on this site seem to reject whatever the government does no matter what.  But there are places it works well.  Canada’s health plan is only about 14 pages long and is designed not to bankrupt people, like in the US.  Don’t you think that $150/month for a family of four would help out the common folks in the US?  Think of how much they would be able to save for retirement or their kid’s education.

     

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  • Wed, Dec 21, 2016 - 10:19am

    Reply to #36

    Michael_Rudmin

    Status Gold Member (Offline)

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    Posts: 857

    you are correct about the origin of the phrase.

    However, you will also note that they immediately ran into problems with this: the apostles felt that their entire apostleship should be praying and praising (and needing and eating); the work that their master had told them to do, they didn’t want to do. Moreover, they began showing favoritism. Therefore, they took on the deacon Stephen to do the work. But the judaizers among them got incredibly mad at this (gentile widows being treated equal to Jewish widows), and brought Stephen to the attention of the authoiities, who kindly consented to murder the guy.
    But Stephen gets the approval of God–his master comes unexpectedly to put him in charge of all his household, and he sees the Lord.

    That was a very gentle but firm rebuke. Thereafter, Paul says, if one will not work, let him not eat. And although he doesn’t argue that the apostles don’t have the right to do as they do, he rets a higher standard, and says, “therefore I do not take this liberty, that I may do my job of spreading the Gospel”.

    So their communism didn’t save them.

    Indeed, redistributing wealth from the haves to the have-nots can work massive environmental destruction, for the people never learn stewardship through the feedback of reality.

    Not to say that everything you see and sense in this is untrue; but it isn’t the complete picture.

    Regarding healthcare, there have been 15% increases in total healthcare spending EVERY YEAR in the US since about 1972, with the exception of a few economic crash years where it rose less than fifteen percent. You can’t undo the damage of that instantly by switching your healthcare system.

    Therefore, the problems are much deeper than your proposed solution.

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  • Wed, Dec 21, 2016 - 10:31am

    #45

    Mots

    Status Bronze Member (Offline)

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    Posts: 67

    Canada vs US healthcare "socialist" vs "capitalist!!!" nonsense

    I have been studiously  avoiding the rantings of D Phillips and even tried to put a block on, but feel compelled to speak up about this healthcare nonsense.  

    People are spending way too much energy and time arguing a false Hegelian Dialectic (as usual) and missing the main point: America is a racketeering country.

    There is no socialism or capitalism, just screwing others based on legal advantage and use whatever label you like.  I am writing here as a trained attorney who has left "the belly of the beast" (as aptly labeled on "Redacted Tonight") by abandoning  my law firm on K street in favor of community development in a small island in a country that is least patriotic and least bigoted (it helps to have lost WWII), and very welcoming to foreigners.  I can also compare US practices with a world perspective and can confirm  that the US is hopelessly screwed by racketeers  that have jacked  up prices and procedures something like 4-5 fold t o screw the maximum possible out of a helpless public.  But FROM this perspective I have to disagree with the unhelpful din of "Commie!! or Capitalist!!!" arguments shouted  out on both sides of a contrived Hegelian dialectic  on  this topic.

    The US healthcare system became exempted from normal antitrust/monopoly/racketeering laws by legislation passed after WWII. Any sociopath worth his salt is salivating and striving his utmost  at  becoming a manager of a health  care facility because he can set unknown,exorbitant, hidden prices and demand payment, even taking property  rights of houses in payment for a service that is categorized as "how precious  is your health/life….  pay up!"  I cant think of a better  racket except maybe using the same doctors to prescribe synthetic  heroin and get a few million Americans so hooked on legal opiates that are MORE expensive than the real thing (heroin) such that those Americans buy street heroin  to save money………. .but oh wait that is another uniquely American health/racketeering issue that must be ignored on pain of conspiracy  theory or even terrorist labelling.  I dont want to be labeled a  terrorist or conspiracy theorist so will leave those facts alone for someone more brave than me…………

    Anyway, as I was  saying, when we remove the racketeering insurance system  and replace with a single payer the costs are MUCH lower but COMPETITION (is this "capitalism?" )is much higher, because the consumer knows what he has to pay and can  shop around.   Japan is condemned as a "socialist!!!–commie!!!" healthcare system because of single payer, but every train  station has advertisements from private health clinics (there is more advertising of  private healthcare in Japan than in the "good old capitalist!!!!!" USA).  If I pay cash because I am out of the system, my cash payment is similar to the out of pocket costs that I had to pay in the US for the same treatment.  I  am sure of this because I have had miscellaneous runs to the hospital (for me and other foreigners) for a variety of treatments.  Since I was in the industry for some years, I asked the health providers about how they  purchase materials and services. Because their income (for most events) is fixed by government decree, t here is an extremely robust competitive supplies service where  providers  really have a huge selection of competing companies to efficiently provide medical  materials  and services such  as diagnostics services. This is totally unlike the racketeering "capitalist!!!!!" system of the US where one sociopath owns both the health care facility AND tthe diagnostics  service AND etc.  and just makes up astronomical transfer pricing because he can  get away with it  (and become a billionare without contributing to society).   Cant do that in a country where medical care is treated as an industry that has to follow anti trust/antimonopoly competitive rules.  

    The completely disfunctional  and  disgusting US health care issue is NOT a "me  capitalist!!!!…. you commie socialist!!!" issue although  the billionare sociopaths who are laughing all the way to the bank would like you to think so.  

    Charles H Smith has discussed this topic several  times and his observations and  conclusions are right  on.
    Mots

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  • Wed, Dec 21, 2016 - 2:47pm

    #46
    Hotrod

    Hotrod

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    The "New" Economy

    MOTS,

    You are 100% correct.  The economy has devolved into what I call the "Skimming and Scamming Economy" where it is every participant's dream to be able to cream a percentage automatically off the top with no competition.  Healthcare being the most obvious example, but reduced competition in many segments are almost as bad. For most of us: Just keep paying and STFU, you're too stupid to know we are screwing you.

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  • Wed, Dec 21, 2016 - 3:46pm

    #47
    Uncletommy

    Uncletommy

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    Posts: 524

    Racketeering or supply management?

    "Management  –  the process of dealing with or controlling things or people"

    Sticking with Christmas theme(?), is it any wonder that the child born to save us all from our iniquities was crucified in the same week he threw the money changers out of the temple? 

    Whether you reference the Bible or Forbes, I think it all boils down to Integrity. What's your motive?

    Merry Christmas  

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  • Wed, Dec 21, 2016 - 4:05pm

    Reply to #47

    Michael_Rudmin

    Status Gold Member (Offline)

    Joined: Jun 25 2014

    Posts: 857

    You are not incorrect, uncle.

    He arranged his crucifixion.  When you go against the deadly power, and attack its income, it's coming after you.  He wasn't stupid.  However, He knew what was required of him.

    It isn't like he hid it, saying repeatedly things like, "I have a baptism I must go through, and how I wish it were over", telling Peter and John "The Son of Man must be crucified…", telling James and John "You wish to be at my right and left when I come into my glory?  Can you go through the baptism with which I must be baptised?  … You shall.  But it is not for me to determine who is at my right and left when I sit on my throne in Glory (that is, the cross), but for those for whom it is determined (the two thieves at his right and left)."  Or again, his discussion with Moses and Elijah about his coming crucifixion on the mount of transfiguration. 

    Yes, he knew what he was doing.  He had a bigger job than overturning a social structure.  He had to absorb the worst of the worst of our iniquities, and then bring good out of it.  Other than that, he could not claim to save anyone from their sins,since sin by its nature grows. 

     

     

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  • Wed, Dec 21, 2016 - 11:58pm

    Reply to #47

    pinecarr

    Status Gold Member (Offline)

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    Posts: 1085

    Speaking of throwing money changers out of the temple...

    For anyone who may be interested, there's a very cool Silver Shield 10 oz silver bar commemorating that event, https://sdbullion.com/10-oz-silver-shield-silver-bar-jesus-clears-temple

    (I tried to post the image, but wasn't able to figure out how to do it).

     

     

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  • Thu, Dec 22, 2016 - 12:25am

    Reply to #44

    Rector

    Status Bronze Member (Online)

    Joined: Feb 07 2010

    Posts: 324

    Lying

    David,

    Since you mentioned your experience with children – did you kids ever lie when they were little?  Was that taught or was it a natural thing?  If you think it was taught, who taught them?  And how do we know it's wrong?

    Rector

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  • Thu, Dec 22, 2016 - 12:44am

    Reply to #47

    Michael_Rudmin

    Status Gold Member (Offline)

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    Posts: 857

    I clicked on the link, and looked at the bar.

    I think the irony of Jesus clearing the Temple on a silver bar is … exquisite. 

    That said, I think it would be great to make every silver bar have a different bible story.  Some people would collect them as collectables.  Then too, surely it qualifies as artwork (relief sculpture?).  It would be useful in event of PMs being made illegal.

     

     

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  • Thu, Dec 22, 2016 - 3:55am

    Reply to #44

    Rector

    Status Bronze Member (Online)

    Joined: Feb 07 2010

    Posts: 324

    Tolerance

    I am constantly amused by the cavalier manner in which Christianity is described – without shock or objection.  In this case my religious beliefs are described as "bloodthirsty" and silence follows.  

    No matter.  I am confirmed in my beliefs by the onslaught of attacks from all sides.  The enemy attacks what is real.  Thank you David.

    Rector

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  • Thu, Dec 22, 2016 - 10:56am

    Reply to #44

    Michael_Rudmin

    Status Gold Member (Offline)

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    Posts: 857

    Rector, I had to find DP's reference

    Funny thing: though I don’t agree that Christianity is bloodthirsty, I do agree that it can be viewed that way, and I actually fairly closely agree with DP’s dates.
    I think his interpretation of triggering events may also be related.

    325 is also very close to the dates that Mithraism went underground, according to the story of the martyrdom of Bishop Georgius of Cappadocia.

    But even before that, I think that nobody can argue against the point that the Roman Empire the populace had devolved into two bloodthirsty crowds (today we’d call them red/blue) each with their own favorite sports (gladiator) teams. One of those two crowds was nominally the Christians. Definitely, something had changed.

    I think it may have been that acceptance as a valid religion in the empire allowed those who were not really Christian to take up the mannerisms of Christianity without having to worry about the costs.

    But I don’t disagree that there was a change. And I don’t disagree that a lot of the behavior at the time could properly be called “bloodthirsty”.

    That said, I never attributed the bloodthirsty bit to Christianity; rather, I attributed it to nonChristians playing at Christianity, or sometimes to confusion among those who were attempting Christianity without a lot of guidance.

    But honestly, that’s my attribution; I don’t know the full details.

    And once you have Mithraism go underground, the rest gets even dicier… because that religion WAS bloodthirsty. So a Mithraist masquerading as a Christian can do a lot of historical damage.

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  • Thu, Dec 22, 2016 - 12:02pm

    #48
    robie robinson

    robie robinson

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    Posts: 868

    From Pascals Pensees

    God made man in its image, man has been returning the favor ever since. (or thereabouts)

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  • Thu, Dec 22, 2016 - 12:25pm

    Reply to #36
    David Phillips

    David Phillips

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    Posts: 111

    Perhaps a balance between the two extremes is best

    Micheal,

    There is a balance between not working at all and don’t work, don’t eat.  There are too many children, sick, and elderly in any society that can’t work for their keep and for Ron Paul to coldly say that is just too bad for those who can’t afford health care is too far of an extreme.  One the other hand, doing nothing and taking advantage of others is not an extreme to justify either.  I prefer to think in shades of grey instead of just black and white.  “Work that their MASTERS had told them to do” tells you a lot who the religion was geared for, the slave class.  But that’s okay with me because those were the very poor he was hoping to give hope to and the lesson that money isn’t where happiness and true fulfillment is found.

    The generations living to have consumed about half of the planet’s resources leaving about a ¼ for future generations (talk about entitlement).  The younger generation would prefer an alternative energy future for $4.5 trillion that produces over 900,000 local jobs in every community.  Whereas the older generation seems to prefer staying addicted to fossil fuels for $14 trillion for far less jobs in remote areas that are going to be replaced by automation anyway.  Considering the circumstances, I think that the younger generation is showing much more stewardship for the creation than the older generation.  If the older generation disregards the limits of our planet and sends the younger generation off to fight yet another war over fossil fuels or another bloody Crusade for a pacifist, there won’t be a living planet left to steward.

    When I first moved to British Columbia in 2012 our family bill was $128/month for basic health care.  Four years later it’s $150, so an increase of $5.50 a year.  I know that US problem is deeper going back to the 1970 when Nixon first devised our present day system with corporate death panels.  (As they try pass the blame with the idea of the “government death panel.”)

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9CDLoyXarXY

     

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  • Thu, Dec 22, 2016 - 12:35pm

    Reply to #45
    David Phillips

    David Phillips

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    Amen, I’ll agree wholeheartedly with that.

    Mot

    It’s the billionaires who can’t ever get enough that are to blame.  But they get away with it by continuously pitting the middle and lower classes against each other like George Carlin explains here.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XdH38k0iUgI

    To me it’s not an issue of socialism vs capitalists either.  It’s about what is most practical for the situation.  Government tends to work better for things like roads, schools, and healthcare, but the private sector usually best serves the rest.  I didn’t invent the culture wars that divided so many things into black and white religious issues, Nixon did.  I’m trying to find the best balanced based upon the rational results.

    http://www.alternet.org/books/how-culture-wars-swallowed-american-political-and-intellectual-life-two-decades

    The Sabbath Economics that Jesus taught says the same thing.  “There is great abundance if we only take what we need.”  If a few people weren’t hoarding all of the resources for themselves, society as a whole would be better off.

     

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  • Thu, Dec 22, 2016 - 12:49pm

    #49
    David Phillips

    David Phillips

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    Solon also forgave debts to help create Athens's democracy

    When coined money was first established in Bronze Age Turkey it greatly boosted trade because it was so much easier than barter.  But it also created the new job speculator who made money off of trading money.  Overtime the monetary wealth concentrated into too few hands and the economy collapsed leaving many in slavery.

    To fix the problem Solon freed the slaves and  canceled all debts.  To even outlawed “hubris” so that aristocrats would not be allowed to intimidate and humiliate the newly freed slaves.

    http://www.dailykos.com/story/2015/7/5/1399191/-27-Centuries-later-Athens-has-come-full-circle

    Solon redefined citizenship and led directly to ancient Greek becoming history's first democracy.  

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  • Thu, Dec 22, 2016 - 12:57pm

    Reply to #44
    David Phillips

    David Phillips

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    Sorry, but Christianty's history is full of bloodshed

    I could spend a whole evening listing out and describing Christianity's history of Crusades, Inquisitions, and witch hunts.  I don't have that much time right now so have just have to reference a Wikipedia link.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_and_violence

    When one reads the stories about Jesus, it abundantly clear that he was a pacifist.  I prefer to seek what Jesus really taught to help make thing "on earth, as they are in heaven" and teach my children same.  

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  • Thu, Dec 22, 2016 - 1:03pm

    Reply to #44
    David Phillips

    David Phillips

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    Raised kids to test ideas to determine truths, like a scientist

    Rector,

    My kids lied a lot less than my parents lied to me, starting with Santa Claus (talk about a materialistic twist).  Children are hardwired to copy what their parents do, not say.  

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=falHoOEUFz0

    But I was raised in a “do as I say and not as I do” culture, which is the heart of the problem.  If I made a truthful observation about an obvious double standard I got slapped in the face and beaten with a belt. I essentially had a lot of truth beaten out of me. 

    When I got an environmental science degree and tried to tell my folks that humans were killing half the species on the planet, they told me the scientists were exaggerating.  When every country in the world was willing to sign on to the Kyoto Protocols, except for the United States, I tried presenting them a graph showing how America can achieve energy independence for ⅓ the cost as staying addicted to fossil fuel and create 10x as many jobs.  My explanation was interrupted 10 seconds in telling me they didn’t have time to listen to me, but they did have time to degrade me for 30 minutes.

    Now that extinction rate is more like 90%, but they still don’t care.  They don’t care that they were misled into Iraq that murdered a million people.  They don’t care that alternative energy is cheaper because the fossil fuels offer more profits.  They don’t care that they are leaving future generations a dead planet because their religion excuses them of that responsibility.  And after the mess the Iraq War has led us into, they still don’t care if their grandchildren are forced to fight in further wars that destroy their very future, when they could have a much better alternative energy future for a cheaper price.

    So I am left with a tough choice, to honor the older generation that got humanity into this mess because they refused to listen to any reason whatsoever, or honor the younger generation and try to do everything I can to leave them a planet worth living on.  

    I taught my kids to reason like scientists.  I would encourage them to observe and reflect upon the world around them.  I encouraged them to ask questions and to understand the reasoning behind the rules, instead of just slapping them across the face for exposing a truth I didn’t want exposed.  Instead of trying to condition them what to think, I tried to teach them how to think so that they could determine truth for themselves.

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  • Thu, Dec 22, 2016 - 2:48pm

    #50
    Uncletommy

    Uncletommy

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    Posts: 524

    Bloodthirsty anyway you slice it.

    "I taught my kids to reason like scientists.  I would encourage them to observe and reflect upon the world around them.  I encouraged them to ask questions and to understand the reasoning behind the rules, instead of just slapping them across the face for exposing a truth I didn’t want exposed.  Instead of trying to condition them what to think, I tried to teach them how to think so that they could determine truth for themselves."

    To reflect on this thread is not only entertaining, but highlights quite vividly Mr. Robinson's observation on Pasca-lian logic. Once one determines the truth, what are you gonna' do with it? Mr. Erasmus and Mr. Luther went toe to toe on the subject with the decision going to Mr. Luther (in my opinion). Is it, "Thy will be done", or my will be done? Maybe its something to ponder as you "re-gift" last year's ostentatious expression filial love in response to the "Holiday Season" morass of consumerism. I'm looking forward to the cinnamon buns my wife just pulled out of the oven for Sunday morning to be shared with friends and family in celebration of the day. Again, Merry Christmas.

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  • Thu, Dec 22, 2016 - 7:22pm

    Reply to #36

    Michael_Rudmin

    Status Gold Member (Offline)

    Joined: Jun 25 2014

    Posts: 857

    The problem with socialized healthcare/racket is food & home

    Quite simply, when you allow a racketeering healthcare system, while also socializing it, you squeeze the laborers (slave class) between things like paying for their own access to that healthcare they’re paying for everyone to have, and paying their electric bill. But when they don’t pay the electric bill, the electric racketeering company cuts them off, and then notifies the city to condemn the house, driving the owner or renter out.
    That doesn’t work very well either.

    “Rent”, assurances of income to some, results in poverty and slavery of others.

    Ron Paul’s solution is to automatically provide nothing to anybody… but that still allows for charity.

    Part of the problem in my own church is that the bishops see how ineffective charity can be in results, and therefore want to push for the government to take it on: but true complex justice cannot deny justice OR charity. The bishops don’t see that. Thus they lose their own positionsn in a sociological position.

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