For years, Mark Sisson competed as a professional runner and triathlete. He trained hard and conventionally, but realized that the "better" shape he was in, the more problems his body had: joint pain, digestive issues, tendonitis, etc.
Eventually he retired from competition and set out to find a way to remain fit, but healthy. His research led him to focus on the evolutionary path the human body has followed; How our physiology is designed and how our genes are wired.
What we discovered just in the last ten years is that much of how our body operates is with these genetic switches. You know, our bodies are the result of two and a half million years of human evolution, upright bipedalism based on certain ways of eating, certain ways of moving, certain amounts of sleep and sun exposure. And if we can dig deeply into all of the behaviors that created this recipe that we all possess to build a strong, fit, healthy, happy, productive human being, then we can combine the best of evolutionary biology and modern genetic science to kind of literally take responsibility for our health from this point going forward.
He published his findings in his work The Primal Blueprint which offers an exercise and nutrition program based on these evolutionary criteria.
This program was a big influence in enabling Chris to lose over 30 pounds back in 2011 (and keep the weight off since).
Key takeaways include:
- Play-based activities (sports, etc) more effective than gym workouts
- Intense short burst activity is more effective than prolonged aerobics
- Nutrition influences about 80% of your body composition (vs exercise)
- Cultivate a diet high in vegetables, fruit, saturated fat and (some) protein. Avoid grains, sugars, and processed foods.
- A healthy diet cuts down on food cravings and moderates appetite, preventing overeating.
- Exposure to sun and soil is important. As is sleep.
Now 60, Sisson level of fitness from practicing this program remains excellent and inspiring. His goal is to help people take greater control over their health. Through better maintenance and nutrition, he believes we can lead longer lives with less injury and disease, and be much less dependent on the medications and invasive procedure of modern medicine.
In a world of spiraling medical costs, underfunded health entitlement programs, and growing financial uncertainty, this concept of long-lived fitness at low expense seems an obvious and attractive investment to make.
For those interested in learning more, details of Mark's regime, as well as daily fitness insights, can be found at MarksDailyApple.com.
Click the play button below to listen to Chris' interview with Mark Sisson (30m:52s):
Chris Martenson: Welcome to this Peak Prosperity podcast. I am your host, Chris Martenson, and today we’re going to delve into one of the most important topics of life, being in shape. Note that I did not say getting in shape, as if that were the goal, but being in shape. Whether your aim is to be more resilient or more healthy or both, being in shape is essential.
Now to set the stage, I’m fifty years old. I weigh about thirty pounds less than I did a bit over a year ago. I exercise regularly but not exhaustively. With my average daily workout, it’s about ten minutes. Once upon a time, I used to spend up to an hour a day in the gym and achieve less results, and that was when I was younger. I eat differently and I exercise differently than I used to. And one of the more profound books that transformed my views was The Primal Blueprint by Mark Sisson. In there, I learned that modern dietary “wisdom” is anything but wise and that my prior approach to grinding out exercise routines was – well, was all wrong, at least from a human DNA blueprint standpoint, which we’re going to find out about today.
We have a chance today to talk with Mark Sisson, a prolific and energetic author, speaker, and businessman dedicated to changing how you eat, look, exercise, and feel. Besides his many books, he runs MarksDailyApple.com, a website with an enormous wealth of information on health, fitness, nutrition, success stories, and a ton of other resources. And you can find links to both at the bottom of the page this podcast is posted to.
Mark, it’s a real pleasure to talk with you today.
Mark Sisson: Thanks for having me, Chris. Great to be here.
Chris Martenson: Great. You know, I was completely taken by your personal story, beginning all the way back at the time when you were a marathon runner and what you learned from that experience. Could you retell that to our listeners? Because I’ve probably told your story a dozen times this year.
Mark Sisson: Sure. I started out with an interest in being healthy, really. That was my goal at an early age, and I recognized that was an important part of who I was. So I read everything I could on what it took to be healthy. Of course, being fit was included in that category. I started running, because in those days, it seemed that aerobics was the way to go. I had read Ken Cooper’s book on aerobics and really liked that concept, so I did some long-distance running. I embarked on a very high-carbohydrate, complex-carbohydrate-based diet to fuel that amount of running.
I pretty much did everything that conventional wisdom said it was going to require to become healthy. And in the process, I became very fit very fast, and I wound up being a national class marathoner and ultimately, a triathlete.
But along the way, I sort of lost sight of my original goal, which was to be healthy. And what I noticed was that while I was race-fit and fast, I was kind of falling apart on the inside. I wound up with osteoarthritis in my feet, tendinitis in other joints in my body, upper respiratory infections six or eight times a year, irritable bowel syndrome. I really was a wreck. And it was kind of bizarre to me to reflect upon that that here was basically the poster child for fitness – I was on the cover of Runner’s World three times – and yet, you know, I was kind of killing myself on the inside.
So when I finally, at the ripe old age of twenty-eight, had to retire because of these injuries and these nagging illnesses and injuries that were taking me down, that’s when I really started to look at what does it take to be as lean and strong and fit and healthy as we possibly can be with the least amount of pain and suffering and sacrifice possible?
That began what has, through today, been a thirty-year odyssey in research and delving deeply into the way the human body works. And what we discovered just in the last ten years is that much of how our body operates is with these genetic switches. You know, our bodies are the result of two and a half million years of human evolution, upright bipedalism based on certain ways of eating, certain ways of moving, certain amounts of sleep and sun exposure. And if we can dig deeply into all of the behaviors that created this recipe that we all possess to build a strong, fit, healthy, happy, productive human being, then we can combine the best of evolutionary biology and modern genetic science to kind of literally take responsibility for our health from this point going forward.
Chris Martenson: Well, let’s jump to the end of that. You were twenty-eight when you started to, I guess, depart from your tried-and-true ways of doing things, and then over this odyssey. So here we are, what, thirty years later, so how old are you now?
Mark Sisson: I’ll be sixty this summer; ooh.
Chris Martenson: Ooh, sixty this summer. Well, I just turned fifty. I know what those landmarks look like.
Mark Sisson: Fifty’s easy, Chris.
Chris Martenson: And I’ve seen your pictures. If I could say this, you’re ripped and you look to be remarkably healthy. How do you feel today?
Mark Sisson: I feel fabulous. I have reoriented my exercise style in a way that has me training the least amount I possibly can in the gym, doing very specific movements – body weight exercises, pushups, pull-ups, dips, lunges, squats, and so on – so that I can orient the rest of my exercise style to play. So I try to spend as little time in the gym as possible, but as much time as I can engaged in playful movement, which includes stand-up paddling, ultimate frisbee, snowboarding, even hiking when I’m excited about hiking. And in that manner, I kind of reoriented my approach to movement such that I don’t dread any workout. I look forward to movement.
Chris Martenson: Fantastic. Okay, so what you’ve just started to articulate is what I learned in The Primal Blueprint. And you started by saying look, we’re these genetic creatures. We were shaped by millions of years as humans but probably billions of years evolutionarily across all of our different gene structures and they’re tuned for certain things. And in that tuning, there are two major aspects of this. One is how you move and exercise, and the second being how you eat.
Since we started with the moving, what is it that you found and articulate in The Primal Blueprint that suggests that the way in which most people might think of as exercise – these grueling, grinding, no fun, get-through-them-but-don’t-look-forward-to-them kinds of practices – why are those off the mark?
Mark Sisson: Well, if you look at, again, the historical movement pattern of humans, it involves a lot of movement at low levels of aerobic activity – walking, crawling, migrating, foraging – these are all terms we used to describe hunter-gatherers. Very rarely is there any long-term high-end aerobic activity where you’re out pushing the heart rate high for forty minutes or an hour or an hour and a half. So there’s a lot of low-level activity. And this is, again, a typical human historical movement pattern. Then there are brief periods of high-intensity activity where you’re lifting – again, if you look at the ancestral pattern – lifting rocks, carrying babies, lugging a carpet back to the camp, sprinting after an animal that you might want to be having for dinner, or sprinting away from an animal that might want to have you for dinner.
So there are brief periods of high intensity where it’s an all-out effort, but for the most part, long periods of low-level activity. And it’s difficult to recreate that, because we sit so much these days at work. And what we do in The Primal Blueprint is we try to find ways – “hacks” is the term that we use – to move more, whether it’s parking further away from work and walking that extra block or two, or taking stairs instead of the elevator. Or whether it’s getting up every twenty minutes and walking around the office, if your boss will allow you to do that, or going for a walk at lunch with your coworkers. We try to find ways in which to inject this low-level activity, and then try to find ways to get to the gym or just even in your backyard, to drop and do a quick set of fifty pushups or whatever it is to get those brief bursts of high-intensity activity. Because the body doesn’t expect us to be slogging it out every day.
The real observational study that just about everybody can agree with is, you go to the gym and you see these same people on the treadmill day in and day out for years and years. And yes, they’re working hard, and yes, they’re sweating. But yes, they also have the same twenty-five pounds to lose that they just can’t seem to get rid of, and it’s partly because of the movement pattern and partly because of their diet, which we can segue into when you’re ready.
But a lot of the movement, it just doesn’t – If you get the diet right, if you realize that 80% of your body composition happens as a result of how you eat, how you manipulate hormones and gene expression through food, then you also get that you don’t need to do that much exercise to maximize strength and body composition.
Chris Martenson: You know, this has been absolutely true for me. We’ll get to the food in just a second. But my daily ten-minute workout, one of the things I picked up from your book was to do high-intensity every so often. But going to failure, really actually going to failure, that last one pushup, that last one pull-up, that last one curl, seems to do more for me than anything I’d done before, and really, it’s been transformative. But the point is, I’m not spending nearly as much time on the exercise portion as I used to, because I think it’s really more about – as you say – 80% of the game is going to come from what you’re putting into your body.
Mark Sisson: Right.
Chris Martenson: That’s where I’ve noticed. And the first thing, even before I came across your book, was – for whatever reason, I’d decided I was just going to start listening to my body. And when I would open up the fridge, more often than not, I would scan everything in there and my body would say nah, don’t want any of that stuff. So I learned to listen to my body and it started gravitating towards many of the things that you have just this fabulous – I’ve got your cookbook here, The Primal Blueprint Cookbook The Primal Blueprint 21-Day Total Body Transformation– just fabulous, delicious, tasty recipes.
But let’s talk about where we are with nutrition in this country. So to set the stage, we’ve all seen the numbers, right? We are probably the most morbidly obese country on the planet, or close to it, and this is all coming with probably more information about how the body works than we’ve ever had at any point in time. What is going wrong here?
Mark Sisson: Well, our genes were forged in a crucible where macronutrients like fat, protein, and carbohydrate were scarce, and carbohydrates were particularly scarce. And all of a sudden, we’re thrust into this 21st century environment now, where food is readily accessible everywhere, and particularly, processed carbohydrates and sugars. The effect that those have on the body are devastating over a lifetime. And what we tried to do with The Primal Blueprint is try to convince people of the idea that humans are designed to burn mostly fat for fuel. We are not supposed to be relying on a fresh supply of carbohydrate every three hours throughout the day to get us from Point A to Point B.
When we become good at burning our stored body fat, then we unburden ourselves of having to eat on this regular schedule and the issues that come from this roller coaster of blood sugar levels and energy levels throughout the day. Because when we program our genes in the direction of deriving most of our energy from stored body fat, we are kind of re-accessing that factory setting that we all have at birth. Now, how that manifests itself is, most people on The Primal Blueprint are eating a relatively lower carbohydrate diet, but they’re not avoiding the good carbs. You know, plenty of vegetables and fruit and so on. What they’re avoiding are the toxic, processed, high carb foods – the flours and the sugars and the things that you find in cereals and pasta and bread and crackers and cookies and desserts and all that other. Once you get rid of that stuff, you find there’s this vast cornucopia of really great tasting natural foods that you can have pretty much whenever you want.
Now, when I say whenever you want, one of the great things that happens as a result of starting to eat this way is that your appetite starts to regulate itself and you don’t get these cravings. Because when you become good at burning off your own stored body fat, your body doesn’t know whether the 500 calories that you had for lunch came off a plate of rib eye steak or off your thighs. It’s still the same fat that the body’s burning effectively and prefers to burn, and so you tend not to have these dramatic swings in energy levels, and your appetite regulates.
So you wind up choosing to eat less – or certainly, not to have to fight off this urge all the time to cut back on your eating, because you do it automatically.
Chris Martenson: Now, this urge – you mentioned before that we have to reprogram our genes. So I’m hearing at least two pathways in here. One is a fat-burning pathway; another is a carbohydrate-burning or dependent pathway. Are those operating in parallel at all times and we’re sort of dialing one up or one down? Or is it literally switching from one pathway to another?
Mark Sisson: Oh, no, no. It’s what we call “fuel partitioning,” and there’s always some of each going on at any point in time. But what we want to do is we want to get to that point where we reduce our body’s expectation of getting carbohydrates and increase its ability to access and burn fat. And this is where the genes come into play. This is where the signals that we provide for both the diet and the exercise cause what we call up-regulating of the enzyme systems that are involved in fat metabolism and burning, and they down-regulate the systems that are expecting carbohydrate or they’re depending on sugar all the time. We use the term kind of loosely that you go from being a sugar burner to being a fat burner.
Chris Martenson: A fat burner. And so in this diet then, your basic dietary recommendations, besides doing away with carbohydrates, by which especially heavily processed carbohydrates are the ones with the least value beyond just simply providing calories. What are your recommendations on the pro side? What is it that we’re increasing here?
Mark Sisson: For most people, that means increasing healthy fat. So that means having access to things like avocado, butter, olive oil, eggs, grass-fed meats when available – but that’s not a deal-breaker right there. Just good cuts of meat. The point being that saturated fat is not the enemy. So we don’t really avoid saturated fat on this program. We just look for the best possible source of fat and use those as a main source of calories in the eating strategy. I even hesitate to call it a diet.
But when you reduce your dependency on sugars and processed carbohydrates and you recognize that, again, you can eat what you want from a list of vegetables and fruits and some starchy natural tubers like sweet potatoes and potatoes, it’s really difficult to get more than two hundred or two hundred and fifty grams of carbs a day. And the rest of it automatically comes from those healthy choices of protein and fat.
Now, we’re not overly dependent on protein. I started out in this investigation thinking protein was the ultimate king and you had to match your protein intakes with a gram per pound of body weight every day. I’ve become less and less beholden to that kind of mantra, and I don’t think we need as much protein, particularly if we become good at reorienting ourselves at accessing stored body fat. We enter into this protein-sparing phenomenon that is also part of our evolution and then we don’t require that much dietary protein on a daily basis.
Chris Martenson: Okay, so what does a typical eating day look like for you?
Mark Sisson: So because I’ve become so good at burning fat, I wake up in the morning and I’m not really hungry. And I might have a cup of coffee to get me started, because coffee is allowed on this program –
Chris Martenson: Glad to hear it.
Mark Sisson: – and I don’t abuse it; I have a cup in the morning. But I engage in what we call a “compressed eating window.” So I might have my first meal at 1:00 in the afternoon. And it might be a giant salad with some form of protein on it. And then a second meal that I would have later on in the day might be at 7:00 at night, and that might be dinner. Now again, I don’t do this because I’m trying to deprive myself. I eat according to my hunger. And the irony is, I’ll wake up again, start working, go through the morning. I might break mid-morning and go to the gym or go for a hike or go for a paddle and do so not having eaten since 7:00 the prior evening. But because I’ve become so good at burning fat, the energy for that workout is coming mostly from stored body fat. And that’s a powerful tool, certainly, for me to maintain my body composition. But it’s also a powerful tool for people who are trying to lose excess body fat.
And the other thing that I’ve noticed, which I think I find a very compelling argument for this way of eating, is that I probably consume twenty to thirty percent fewer calories per day than I used to when I was big on the carbohydrates. Because I’ve become so efficient at what I do in terms of energy production, I don’t need to be eating just for the sake of increasing my metabolism. And that’s another thing that we learn within this Primal Blueprint strategy – that the human body wants to conserve energy. So we try to figure out ways that we can conserve energy without gaining body fat, and it works beautifully for most people.
Chris Martenson: Interesting. So you are comfortable not having breakfast in the morning. Do you feel like is that because of how your body is conditioned? Or would that be true for everybody?
Mark Sisson: Well, you know, it’s interesting; you’re right. Because everybody is different, we talked about this experiment of one. We know that the body’s biochemistry works the same in everybody; it’s just the degree to which it works. It’s the degree to which you build muscle or the degree to which you store fat that differs among individuals as a result of your own unique little genetic tweaks, the contributions that your parents made to who you are.
In many cases, in a lot of cases, people will agree with me that they wake up, they’re not hungry for breakfast. And once you get out of your head that breakfast isn’t necessarily the most important meal of the day and you’re not going to fall apart if you don’t have breakfast and it becomes okay to not eat it, you’re not hungry. I mean, that’s probably the most important cue for me – if I’m not hungry, why do I want to eat?
So a lot of people do share in that experience. Others say you know, I wake up and I’m hungry, so I have some breakfast, and that’s fine, too. There’s no real hard and fast way to do this, other than generally getting this reprogramming of your genes to be very good at burning fat and not so dependent on carbohydrates. And over time, people arrive at it. I think you actually sort of acknowledged it yourself that there’s an intuitive sense that you get when you open the refrigerator and you go yeah, I feel like this and I know I don’t want to put that into my body. Again, it’s a very empowering feeling to understand that not only do you know how to eat and when to eat and what to eat, but it’s not driving your life in a way that it does with so many people who are on a “diet.”
Chris Martenson: There’s so much of our conventional wisdom that used to drive my behaviors. Of course, we have the food pyramid, but breakfast is the most important part of the day. There’s a lot of marketing, whether it comes from the USDA or from food manufacturers around what and how we’re supposed to eat. But as a parent, one of the things I noticed was that our bodies do a great job of telling us what to eat. And I noticed this in my children, because when my children would be going through a growth spurt, we could not possibly keep bananas on the counter. They would just power through them and then my wife would keep buying the bananas and then they’d eventually start rotting on the counter because the kids would be done with their growth spurt and they wouldn’t eat them anymore.
So the kids like automatically knew when their body wanted whatever it was that the bananas provided, probably potassium. And so there’s a signal to me that our bodies can tell us exactly what we need. And so quite regularly, I listen as much as I can to my body, and it very usually follows along with everything you’ve taken the trouble to articulate so beautifully in your cookbooks and your other materials.
So it’s really just gaining the knowledge from you and then following that, if I listen carefully to what my body actually says.
Mark Sisson: Agreed. And the one caveat is that you can’t have junk in the house because the brain – you know, we’re still wired to go after sweet stuff because it was so scarce throughout most of human history. And yet, we’re so confronted with candy and sweets and desserts everywhere you turn. So one of the strategies is kind of get rid of those in your own house so that when it does come time to snack or open up the refrigerator, you’re presented with a range of choices, any one of which would appropriate in the context of what you’re feeling in that particular moment – whether you need a high-carbohydrate bump, which is fine, or whether you’re going to just take the edge off with a high-fat snack. I keep macadamia nuts on hand a lot; they’re my favorite snack, and they take the edge off like nobody’s business. So I’ve found that that’s a great tool to use in the event that I don’t have time to fix a meal and I want to take the edge off until I do have time, but I don’t want to be tempted to go for the fast food drive-thru or some packaged snack that just happens to be staring at me from the shelf.
Chris Martenson: I totally understand exactly what you’re saying. Now, I think a question that comes up a lot for people when they hear about a diet like this – or sorry, not a diet, that’s the wrong word –
Mark Sisson: That’s fine, that’s fine.
Chris Martenson: We’ll call it a way of eating. I have some questions. Is it hard? Is it expensive? Is it time-consuming? Because when I walk down the vegetable aisle at my store, I get sticker shock a lot these days.
Mark Sisson: Yeah. Well, it’s not hard if you are willing to take the few weeks that the transition – literally, the biochemical transition – in your body will take. That’s why I have a book called The 21-Day Total Body Transformation. Because it takes about three weeks of this regular eating style for your body to up-regulate all those enzyme systems that we want and down-regulate the other ones. So that’s the part that’s maybe hard.
I also am really down on grains. I think grains are the worst thing that ever happened to us. And so if we can get rid of grains in our diet, I think all of us are better off for having done that. And for a lot of people, grains have an opiate-like effect on the brain. So again, it’s that difficult transition time.
But almost invariably, people get through that transition and go, wow, I feel I don’t crave them anymore, I don’t need them, I recognized that I was bloated when I ate them or I had gut issues when I ate grains. So I’m better off having gotten rid of the grains.
You don’t have to go for the most expensive cuts of grass-fed meats or wild salmon on this program, as some people would assume. This is really about getting rid of all of the peripheral crap, for lack of a better word – the packaged goods. You know, a box of cereal I bought for years, but a box of cereal is what – four, five, six bucks? If you get rid of a lot of the peripheral stuff and just focus on the produce and the good cuts of meat, fish, fowl, eggs, and so on, it doesn’t have to be expensive. In fact, it could be a wash in terms of your overall costs or expenses.
But I would rather people look at it as all right, over a lifetime, if I don’t start eating this way and I continue to eat the standard American diet, there’s a strong possibility – like it’s better than fifty-fifty- that I will wind up with some kind of a heart condition of some kind of a long-term metabolic problem that’s going to cost me hundreds of thousands of dollars in not just medical issues but lost work time or just quality of life issues. So the investment that I make today in making that transition will pay off probably better than any 401K you could ever imagine over a lifetime.
Chris Martenson: That’s an excellent point. Where does gardening fit into your plan here?
Mark Sisson: Gardening’s great for a lot of reasons. Getting out in the sun means you’re getting some vitamin D. And one of the things you learn from The Primal Blueprint is that this admonition that dermatologists have given us over the years to avoid the sun is probably causing more problems in terms of increased amounts of cancer from avoiding the sun than were ever caused by being in the sun too long.
So getting out, gardening, getting you in the sun, playing in the soil. There are some healthy dirt – There’s bacteria in the soil that are there to interact with our skin, and it causes a beneficial immune response. So people who are out in loam and soil and working the soil tend – it’s been shown in research – to have more effective immune systems.
Ultimately, just the fact that you can grow your own vegetables – again, if we're talking about a sense of personal responsibility and personal empowerment and control, there is nothing like taking control of your health away from your doctor or the AMA, your insurance company, and saying you know what? I got this. I am going to be totally in control of my health from here on out.
And then the other part of that is being in control of my food production, to a certain extent. And if you’re growing your own vegetables or some people just have an herb garden or whatever, and there’s a real sense of empowerment there to say wow, I’ve gained an element of control that I never thought I could have and it feels good.
Chris Martenson: Absolutely, and for me, it’s something I happen to enjoy a lot. But I also get to control the quality of the food. And I’m a big fan now of understanding how the nutrients and micronutrients, in particular, cycle through. And it turns out a lot of industrially farmed produce these days is really starting to get stripped of nutrients. Whether you think that’s important or not, I do. So I just love the gardening – it’s beautiful and it gives me that sense of control, which I love in this day and age.
Mark Sisson: Absolutely.
Chris Martenson: Okay. So somebody’s spent the twenty-one days. I would really direct people to look at some of the success stories, which you’ve just got a ton of out there on your website. But people have come back with just a raft of anecdotes for you. One woman was saying her migraines went away; other people with long-term metabolic sorts of issues cured themselves, if I can use that term. How many of those anecdotes do you have? And is that, to you, a real and verifiable result of being on this program?
Mark Sisson: Yeah, it’s funny. This month, we will hit two million unique visitors for the month of January. And we have tens of thousands of reported anecdotal responses, thousands of recorded – you know, very extensive testimonials – from people who sent in letters or participated on our forum. And every week, we have a featured success story with photographs on Fridays on MarksDailyApple, and that’s now in the hundreds.
So when people say well, wait a minute, there’ve been no studies done in this area. I go Dude, you know, you can show me your studies of people filling out questionnaires about what they ate last week or two months ago and maybe come up with some kind of correlation there. But I would argue that my hundreds of thousands of user experiences and my tens of thousands of testimonials will trump that, particularly when people say look, you know, it’s great that I lost fifty pounds or a hundred and five pounds and my polycystic ovarian syndrome went away or I cured my type 2 diabetes. But the most important thing about this eating strategy is I know I can do this for the rest of my life. It’s a sustainable program because that’s what your genes expect.
Chris Martenson: Well, that’s just fantastic. And Mark, I really want to thank you for your time today. And I want to be sure people know that they can find you at MarksDailyApple.com. Is there anything more you’d like to tell us about your offerings there and the resources you have available?
Mark Sisson: Well, sure. We’ve got a regular weekly newsletter. You sign up for that, you can download our 92- page Primal Blueprint fitness book and several user-generated cookbooks. That alone has a tremendous amount of value for a lot of people. And then we send out a weekly newsletter. We post daily at MarksDailyApple. There’s been a new – I like to say exciting or insightful – article every day for the last six and a half years. So it’s a great place to come to; a lot of people use it as their first stop of the day. I encourage everyone to sign up for the newsletter, get the freebies, and play with us.
Chris Martenson: Fantastic. I certainly hope people do, and I want to thank you again. And I hope we’ve managed to inspire somebody to literally change their life for the better.
Mark Sisson: Well, I appreciate your having me on, Chris. It was a great experience. I hope we can do it again.
Chris Martenson: The pleasure was all mine.