• Blog
    Positive covid test

    Have A Positive Covid Test Result?

    Be sure to ask this question.
    by Chris Martenson

    Tuesday, December 1, 2020, 5:25 PM

The lockdowns are based on surging “cases” which are based on positive PCR test results. However, what exactly is a positive PCR test result? What does it mean?

I’ll answer that and give you the answer to the most important question you should ask if you or a loved one gets a positive PCR test result. “What’s the Cycle Threshold (CT) value for that test?”

Sounds wonky but it’s actually really important to understand. A low CT value means someone is loaded with virus. A high value, oppositely, means less of a viral load.

Beyond a certain level the load is insufficient to either infect someone else or be of any clinical or epidemiological relevance whatsoever.

The problem? Governments all over the country and world are basing their decisions on CT values that are very high. Too high.





Today’s Links:

______________________________________________________________________

DISCLAIMER: THIS WEBSITE DOES NOT PROVIDE MEDICAL ADVICE
The information, including but not limited to, text, graphics, images, videos and other material contained on this website are for informational and educational purposes only. No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. Always seek the advice of your physician or other qualified health care provider with any questions you may have regarding a medical condition or treatment and before undertaking a new health care regimen, and never disregard professional medical advice or delay in seeking it because of something you have read on this website.

Related content
» More

72 Comments

  • Tue, Dec 01, 2020 - 6:49pm

    #1
    brushhog

    brushhog

    Status: Platinum Member

    Joined: Oct 06 2015

    Posts: 1003

    18

    How about I just avoid taking a test all together?

    Seems like a waste of time and money as somebody in my age bracket has about a 99.9% chance of surviving covid 19. I see no reason to open a pandoras box of lockdowns, quarantines, and who knows what else if I were to get a positive test result.

    Unfortunately, we just dont live in a time and place where its safe to share certain information. The trust in the institutions just isnt there anymore, and with good reason IMO.

    Login or Register to post comments

  • Tue, Dec 01, 2020 - 6:56pm

    #2
    nordicjack

    nordicjack

    Status: Platinum Member

    Joined: Feb 03 2020

    Posts: 1666

    1

    Just confirmation of what we knew

    Thanks to Dr. Martenson's previous video,  this just confirms what we knew several weeks ago.    So, lots of unnecessary fall out.   I am not saying there is no reason to test someone without symptoms.. But its only because they had been exposed , or some other reason.. To blanket test all people or people who are not ill , makes no sense at all to me.. Not saying they cannot be presymptomatic.. But we know even in those instances , the test would say they are negative when they are not.   This was actually a stance and guidline for testing by the CDC for a short period of time, before they reversed on that..   And that was finally something I agreed with the CDC , then they reverse it.. Go, figure..  So I am like Dr, Martenson, throwing my hands up.. what gives?

    Login or Register to post comments

  • Tue, Dec 01, 2020 - 7:07pm

    #3
    MGRS

    MGRS

    Status: Silver Member

    Joined: Feb 28 2013

    Posts: 136

    2

    Do they normally sample after each cycle?

    Just to be clear on how this PCR test works -- are they testing after each cycle, or only at the end of the prescribed number of cycles?

    A) they run 40 cycles and then test and say "positive," or

    B) are they doing it like The Count where they say 19 cycles = negative, 20 cycles = negative, 21 cycles = positive, ha, ha, ha and then stop the test (or maybe continue on just because it's automated)

    Login or Register to post comments

  • Tue, Dec 01, 2020 - 8:17pm

    #4
    nordicjack

    nordicjack

    Status: Platinum Member

    Joined: Feb 03 2020

    Posts: 1666

    1

    MGRS question - Me too wondering

    On tests. are they actually returning the quantitative results.. or just positive or negative.   I am guessing they are actually getting quantitative results , but returning an objective result as positive or negative.  So , how do you ask the lab or dr for a more meaningful result?

    Login or Register to post comments

  • Tue, Dec 01, 2020 - 8:28pm

    #5

    dgbd

    Status: Bronze Member

    Joined: Jul 21 2014

    Posts: 55

    2

    Your Case

    We had a similar situation happen to us last February about 2 weeks before the shut downs. In the first week of February the two of us visited our daughter, son-in law and grand daughter in Minneapolis. Suppose to be very few cases there at that time. Daughter works in a clinic as a physician assistant. She had a very painful sounding cough at the time and the baby was sick with Flu A. We visited for 5 days and came back to northern Minnesota. After just a few days my wife got a bad sore throat, extreme fatigue, sore joints. She was in bed for 10 days. After about 5 days in bed she went to the local clinic to get tested for Flu A and strep throat. Both negative. No covid test were available at that time. We both had been vaccinated for Influenza A that fall. We had no access to any medications that would be beneficial to a covid infection. She recovered after about 10 days in bed and I had a tightness in my chest for about 10 days with no other symptoms. I went for a walk in the subzero weather for about 2 hours every morning as is my habit and it helped my breathing a lot. Nobody believes we had covid and there is no way to find out if we did. I am in my 70s and my wife is five years younger.

    Login or Register to post comments

  • Tue, Dec 01, 2020 - 9:00pm

    #6
    greendoc

    greendoc

    Status: Bronze Member

    Joined: Sep 23 2008

    Posts: 167

    5

    Many other viruses circulate in winter, not just flu and Sars-CoV19

    I understand from following the Seattle flu study (which takes swabs from willing volunteers with flu-like symptoms and flagged the first then known Covid-19 infection in Seattle area Jan 2020) that the most common viral causes of flu-like symptoms (not in any order) are:

    Influenza.A.H3N2,

    Influenza.A.H1N1,

    Influenza.B.,

    (Respiratory syncytial virus) RSV.A,

    RSV.B,

    Rhinovirus,

    Human_coronavirus

    Human_metapneumovirus

    Human_parainfluenza

    I no longer work in clinical medicine, but understand from colleagues that there was a very bad respiratory infection going around pre-Covid, and it most likely was either one of these two: parainfluenza or a meta-pneumonia virus.  These both can have longer incubations up to a week.

    https://www.cdc.gov/surveillance/nrevss/hmpv/clinical.html

    https://www.cdc.gov/parainfluenza/hcp/clinical.html

    https://www.cdc.gov/parainfluenza/about/symptoms.html

    Login or Register to post comments

  • Tue, Dec 01, 2020 - 9:19pm

    #7
    nordicjack

    nordicjack

    Status: Platinum Member

    Joined: Feb 03 2020

    Posts: 1666

    0

    green doc

    I wouldn't think zebras if I hear hooves.    Back a year ago yes.. But basically, people have been or should be taking NPI to reduce spread..  Since coronavirus is less fragile than the fore mentioned,  those will be suppressed.   Its my opinion , but early empirical experience was in agreement with this in asia last winter.   I know we do not take as draconian NPI's as they do, but I believe the same would hold true.

    Additionally, I am under the impression its not just seasons that suppress the flu , but lack of children in school.  Which we are seeing as well now.

    Login or Register to post comments

  • Tue, Dec 01, 2020 - 9:39pm

    #8
    TJinBC

    TJinBC

    Status: Member

    Joined: Mar 21 2020

    Posts: 1

    2

    Ontario Govt doc - CT thresholds not recommended

    This government of Ontario (and Canada) document appears to say that CT thresholds are not important and should not even be included in reports. Am I misreading this?

     

    Some experts have argued that Ct values should be provided routinely on laboratory reports to assist
    with clinical and public health decision making.4 This may be applicable in a limited setting where
    healthcare providers only receive reports from a single laboratory, and can be educated about the test
    performance and Ct value characteristics of a particular assay. However, in complex laboratory network
    environments, such as in Ontario, where specimens may be tested at one of several laboratories (> 40
    laboratories conducting SARS-CoV-2 rRT-PCR in the province on a variety of different extraction and PCR
    platforms), utility of such reporting is questionable. Moreover, test results are received and reviewed by
    a myriad of healthcare providers, as well as patients, with varying understanding of Ct values. As such,
    the inclusion of Ct values on laboratory reports issued in Ontario (and Canada) is not recommended -
    they are of limited utility if used in isolation when interpreting the rRT-PCR result. In the rare, specific
    scenarios where it is thought that the Ct value might inform clinical or public health management,
    clinical and public health providers should contact the testing laboratory to discuss Ct interpretation, in
    the context of the epidemiology and clinical scenario, with the microbiology team.

    Login or Register to post comments

  • Wed, Dec 02, 2020 - 4:49am

    #9

    Oliveoilguy

    Status: Platinum Member

    Joined: Jun 29 2012

    Posts: 1403

    3

    “Try Try Again”

    https://medical.mit.edu/sites/default/files/false-positive.png

    Login or Register to post comments

  • Wed, Dec 02, 2020 - 6:24am

    #10
    Hans

    Hans

    Status: Silver Member

    Joined: Aug 09 2017

    Posts: 198

    7

    "Just say no"

    I live in Belgium, maybe the situation here is different than in the US.

    When I asked if there is any information about the CT-values on the test-report, the doctor just said no. (fortunately the test was negative)

    I have never had Covid, but I am absolutely certain that when I need a doctor and ask for ivermectin or the MATH+ protocol, they will just say no.

    As a patient or even as a citizen, you have nothing to say. Nothing else that to say "No" also....

    Login or Register to post comments

  • Wed, Dec 02, 2020 - 6:44am

    #11
    Mary59

    Mary59

    Status: Bronze Member

    Joined: Feb 09 2020

    Posts: 182

    0

    Summary of All Vaccines under development October 16 2020

    https://laegemiddelstyrelsen.dk/da/nyheder/temaer/ny-coronavirus-covid-19/vacciner-og-medicin-til-behandling-mod-covid-19/~/media/3A4B7F16D0924DD8BD157BBE17BFED49.ashx

    Login or Register to post comments

  • Wed, Dec 02, 2020 - 7:00am

    #12
    JTMan

    JTMan

    Status: Member

    Joined: Mar 20 2020

    Posts: 3

    0

    JTMan said:

    Would you please name the 'meds that can't be named'? Given how you appeared to beat whatever was ailing you, that information just seems too important to not be specified. Thanks.

    Login or Register to post comments

  • Wed, Dec 02, 2020 - 7:31am

    #13
    nordicjack

    nordicjack

    Status: Platinum Member

    Joined: Feb 03 2020

    Posts: 1666

    0

    very very sad - but not surprised

    Sad that we do not get values for the patient or practitioner to interpret..  Now I will go ahead and say the with all the others.. the virus is a hoax// yes its  hoax becasue we are defrauded on real numbers.   purposely gammed .   this is not good science at all

    Login or Register to post comments

  • Wed, Dec 02, 2020 - 8:06am

    #14
    Chris Martenson

    Chris Martenson

    Status: Platinum Member

    Joined: Jun 07 2007

    Posts: 6651

    11

    Naming that which shall not be named

    Would you please name the 'meds that can't be named'? Given how you appeared to beat whatever was ailing you, that information just seems too important to not be specified. Thanks.

    The Math+ Protocol is my favorite found here.  Follow this and the odds will ever be in your favor:

    To this (and to the Zelenko below) I would add:

    - Selenium (200ug/day)

    If symptomatic:

    - Famotidine (Pepcid)

    - Doxycycline and/or azithromycin

    And there's the Zelenko Protocol found here and reproduced as an image below:

    ++++++++++++++

    I am personally following the EVMS with the add ons as my preferred protocol.  But the Zelenko is useful too, I just have a lot more faith in Ivermectin at this point...but I cannot think of any reason for *most* people to now also include HCQ along with ivermectin.

    After all, billions of doses without a single recorded case of sudden heart failure gives me great comfort in the safety profile (at least according to the pre-Covid W.H.O.).

    Login or Register to post comments

  • Wed, Dec 02, 2020 - 8:39am

    #15
    Thors Hammer

    Thors Hammer

    Status: Bronze Member

    Joined: Feb 13 2020

    Posts: 68

    8

    Thors Hammer said:

    Chris

    As you know, a Portuguese court recently reviewed the the methods and protocols behind the PCR test and ruled that the tests as currently employed are totally without value.

    PCR Tests and COVID Vaccines are Useless

    And from the news network That Shall Not Be Mentioned:>   https://www.rt.com/op-ed/507937-covid-pcr-test-fail/

    And the original:  https://academic.oup.com/cid/advance-article/doi/10.1093/cid/ciaa1491/5912603

    The bottom line:  A positive PCR test result at 40 amplifications  (a magnification factor of a trillion) has a 97% probability of being a false positive from the standpoint of infectivity.

    The standard amplification level used in France is reportedly 50.  Is it any wonder France has experienced a huge second wave of new "cases?"

    Then scroll down to the section which discusses the testing protocols behind the freight train of approval of mRNA based vaccines.  Public mass testing of totally unproven genetic alterations. The goal of the Gates Foundation to have everyone in the world vaccinated and have a ID control chip implanted is starting to seem more than mere madness but an actual plan of the maddest of the Malignant Overlords.

    Login or Register to post comments

  • Wed, Dec 02, 2020 - 8:55am

    Thors Hammer

    Thors Hammer

    Status: Bronze Member

    Joined: Feb 13 2020

    Posts: 68

    1

    Thors Hammer said:

    So you need to take an international flight.  You had a mild case of Corvid19 two months ago.  Good luck passing the required PCR test even though you are now immune  and totally incapable catching or  passing on the disease.  Not a problem--- although your boss will have to let you go because of failure to perform the requirements  of your position.

    Login or Register to post comments

  • Wed, Dec 02, 2020 - 9:40am

    #17

    Oliveoilguy

    Status: Platinum Member

    Joined: Jun 29 2012

    Posts: 1403

    5

    Info on Cycle Thresholds from a major PCR test company

    My brother in law is a top exec. at one of the companies that supplies a 30 minute PCR test. He was kind enough to ask one of the scientists for an explanation  of Ct thresholds pin layman’s terms.

    “Each PCR test is different so it is really hard to say what the Ct should be.  Depending on the primers/probes and other conditions, determines the number of cycles for the test and the cut off.

     

    If there are 35 cycles and the test goes positive with a Ct of 32 that would be considered a “low” positive, almost at max threshold.  If the test goes positive at Ct of 20, that would a strong positive meaning more virus was probably present from start.  However, this is all dependent on sample collection/quality.

     

    Higher Ct value could most likely be associated with lesser chance of infection but again depends on sample quality and also when the test is performed.  A negative PCR test today does not mean that you are not infected – could be that they were just infected and levels are not yet high enough to detect. “

    Login or Register to post comments

  • Wed, Dec 02, 2020 - 10:01am

    #18
    RoseHip

    RoseHip

    Status: Bronze Member

    Joined: Feb 05 2013

    Posts: 151

    1

    CT threshold cut off

    Just went over to the lab to ask, here is what I learned.

    Lab tech did not know, so she looked it up in the pack insert that comes with the machine. The CT cut off is set by the manufactorer and was found to be 125, this is for Priority 1 test. I asked a follow up question about positive test and whether CT values are included, the answer was no. The only value provided, at least to the knowledge of this lab tech was, either positive or negative. Asking what CT value a positive test was found at, current, would just leave people here at this hospital scratching their heads.

    RH

     

    Login or Register to post comments

  • Wed, Dec 02, 2020 - 10:08am

    #19
    wotthecurtains

    wotthecurtains

    Status: Platinum Member

    Joined: Feb 27 2020

    Posts: 952

    3

    Ontario Govt doc - CT thresholds not recommended

    Back when Chris did his Sept video on this subject I looked for Alberta Govt policy on PCR thresholds.

    It read similarly to what Ontario has said.  Basically, "We are aware that some people think thresholds above 35 can be a problem, but we are not ready to have any specific policy."

     

    Being an outsider to healthcare I wasn't sure what to make of it but the cynic in me read it as "Until the evidence is so overwhelming that we would look foolish, we will run as many damned cycles as we like".

     

    Its a good window into how the citizens end up being simultaneously under quarantine because of a 47 cycle test but also dissuaded from doing anything that might help them if they did develop the disease.

     

    Everyone is punting to the guy further up the chain of command because apparently science gains power as you move up.   When the things discussed here become common knowledge it wont be the fault of anyone in particular.

    Login or Register to post comments

  • Wed, Dec 02, 2020 - 10:11am

    Thors Hammer

    Thors Hammer

    Status: Bronze Member

    Joined: Feb 13 2020

    Posts: 68

    4

    Threshould cut off of 125!

    If in fact they are performing 125 exponential amplifications the multiplication factor is somewhere similar to the number of miles to the sun.  My pet rock would test positive.

    Login or Register to post comments

  • Wed, Dec 02, 2020 - 10:17am

    #21

    thatchmo

    Status: Silver Member

    Joined: Dec 13 2008

    Posts: 381

    1

    Other test false+ vunerabilities?

    So I guess this discussion is focused on PCR testing.  What about the other types of COVID-19 testing.  Is their accuracy in question?  Aloha, Steve.

    Login or Register to post comments

  • Wed, Dec 02, 2020 - 10:38am

    #22
    RoseHip

    RoseHip

    Status: Bronze Member

    Joined: Feb 05 2013

    Posts: 151

    1

    Pet rocks in mask

    well for your safety, I hope you're setting a policy that all inside pet rocks must wear a mask or  else they'll get tossed out!

    Login or Register to post comments

  • Wed, Dec 02, 2020 - 11:09am

    VincitVeritas

    VincitVeritas

    Status: Member

    Joined: Dec 02 2020

    Posts: 19

    5

    For what it is worth...

    I used to run a Pathogen Dx microbial PCR screening test in a lab I worked in which I am assuming is similar to the detection methodology used with covid testing.

    With PDx, the cycles were ran from a microarray with around 90 wells in a programmable thermo-cycler.  After the cycles (which were also 40), small volumes of the cycled samples were placed on a glass plate and then allowed to "hybridize", aspirated, then placed in a detector which took images of the plate (about the size of a microscope slide, a bit larger).  I looked for info on what the detector did, but cannot find any from a casual search.  More than likely, it operated off of UV or IR detection which should be noted that it probably was not a quantitative measurement (we had issues with the quantitative aspect of this tech).

    So to answer your question making the assumption that covid test detection is similar to PDx:  No, there is no way to know at which CT your sample had a positive result.

    In order to do this, they would have to cycle your sample in multiple microarray plates which had defined CT to stop cycling, do post-cycle processing, then run in the detector for each CT cut off.  I could be horribly wrong too.

    I doubt they have the time to do this seeing as the volume of testing has only been increasing as time goes on.

    Login or Register to post comments

  • Wed, Dec 02, 2020 - 11:15am

    VincitVeritas

    VincitVeritas

    Status: Member

    Joined: Dec 02 2020

    Posts: 19

    4

    VincitVeritas said:

    Absolutely,

    no tests, no numbers  =  no restrictions on constitutional rights and abhorrent gutting of our local economies...

    I refuse both the test AND the vaccine...  look at who is behind both the creation of this mess and the solution.  Follow the money.

    Where have we seen the strategy of controlled opposition before?...

    Login or Register to post comments

  • Wed, Dec 02, 2020 - 11:47am

    #25
    VincitVeritas

    VincitVeritas

    Status: Member

    Joined: Dec 02 2020

    Posts: 19

    7

    Very very interesting...

    Dr. Martenson, once again, the leading edge of common sense!

    I missed your September video, but saw the one last night.  Great minds think alike as I have been revisiting the credibility of the tests and going down rabbit holes.

    If the tests are garbage, the whole narrative has no stable footing.  This is besides the fact that the only attempt at investigating the origin of sars-cov-2 has been from compromised science hacks that obviously have vested interests in the zoonotic origin theory.  Why are we a year into this and still no reasonable audits of BSL3-4 labs not only linked to the WIV, but worldwide?  China now says that the virus originated in Italy.  I had no idea, first off, that pangolins and bats hung out in the same caves, but that they also reside in Italy and have dual citizenship.  Maybe that's where they migrate to for the winter, eh?  Very interesting symbiotic relationship there as the bats might be flying the pangolins over there?

    Anyhow, a few points that were not addressed in the recent video:

    (in no way a criticism or complaint, just wanted to add these)

    1) EUA authorization was awarded to test kits which did not include human genetic material for potential false positives.  This creates a problem which I will mention below.  To make matters worse, there was no process of cross-lab or third party validation of said tests.  From what I understand, the labs that manufacture the tests provided their own validation data to prove effectiveness and be awarded EUA.

    2) There is no requirement for a negative control in any covid tests under EUA.  This is what had initially stalled the roll out of the CDC test.  So the scientists in all their great wisdom just chose to throw out the faulty component rather than solve the problem and provide a legitimate test by including both positive and negative controls.

    3)  Looking in detail at the CDC tests, the forward and reverse primers match exactly to certain sequences found in human chromosomes (I used ncbi blast tool).  This ties into number one on this list.  We know that these tests are not quantitative, but qualitative.  What I do not know at this point is if there is any sorting of amplified genetic material such as gel electrophoresis (which they do not have time to do for the magnitude of tests being processed daily).  If the detection methodology does not differentiate between say 500bp segments and 20bp segments, the amplified sample could contain any number of genetic material that the primers had an affinity to.  This is a HUGE problem.

    4) Technician handling error: Some components need to be stored at -80C in order for the test to work properly.  These types of freezers are very expensive and hopefully all labs processing tests have these on-hand.  If not, then the results are meaningless.  As I mentioned in a reply to another comment here, I used to work in a lab that ran pcr tests to detect STEC and other microbes.  We did not have a -80C freezer and the tests rarely produced usable results until we obtained proper cold storage.

    EDIT: forgot one...

    5) The RNA segment that is screened for with the pcr test is the nucleocapsid rather than S proteins or the famously unique segment of PRRA.  I get that the S region is subject to greater selectivity/mutation, but miraculously, it seems to not have changed much although it has passed through millions of humans at this point.  Regardless, the nucleocapsid may not mutate as much, but it is a very generalized segment that I am nearly positive is shared among other betacoronaviruses.  Their choice of RNA segment seems very poor and I have yet to find an explanation of why they chose this.  As we all know by now, the PRRA segment would be ideal to screen for Sars-cov-2 as it is not found in any similar betacoronaviruses.

     

    Just a few things I wanted to mention to you.  Hope you get a chance to read this.

    Login or Register to post comments

  • Wed, Dec 02, 2020 - 11:55am

    #26

    mainebob

    Status: Bronze Member

    Joined: Jan 13 2009

    Posts: 70

    5

    MAINE CDC: FDA approved test must be <= 45 Cycles

    ---------- Forwarded message ---------
    From: Long, Robert (Maine CDC)
    Date: Wed, Dec 2, 2020 at 2:25 PM
    Subject: RE: Positive Covid Test? Please Ask this Question

    Good afternoon,

    There has been a lot of hypothesizing about cycle thresholds for COVID-19 PCR testing. Here is the latest U.S. CDC information on the topic:

    https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/lab/faqs.html

    Manufacturers of the tests approved by the FDA set the cycle threshold of less than or equal to 45. Maine CDC’s lab does not have authorization to alter that setting, as it is designed to create a peer-reviewed uniform national standard.

    Respectfully,
    Robert Long
    Maine CDC
    ===
    Comment: Seems like the test is of no value as PCR will find COVID-19  Dead or Alive.
    I'll continue with boosting my immune system (a la CM), and wear mask when in public places.   -Bob

    -Bob

    Login or Register to post comments

  • Wed, Dec 02, 2020 - 12:43pm

    #27
    wotthecurtains

    wotthecurtains

    Status: Platinum Member

    Joined: Feb 27 2020

    Posts: 952

    8

    I continue to find some comfort in The Dictator's Handbook

    Not that it makes me feel better about the situation, but at least I feel like I understand whats at play:

     

    - In various "Third World" countries, lockdowns and businesses limited to 25% occupancy would rapidly lead to a substantial number of people starving in short order.

    - In those countries where the leaders realized they are best served by a situation of "non-starving", cheap medications  are investigated and used to treat patients and life is kept as normal as possible otherwise because this is what the key supporters of those in power need most.

    - In other countries, the lockdowns and small business carnage are seen as an acceptable price to pay while key supporters line up solutions that are lucrative for them or the shutdowns/lockdowns are seen as being valuable in their own right for some other reason.

     

    If you are here you are probably in one of the countries handling things poorly but you are also blessed because you can take matters into your own hands as far as getting those well proven cheap treatments.

     

    Being "on your own" isnt as bad when there are others around to help you

    Login or Register to post comments

  • Wed, Dec 02, 2020 - 1:00pm

    #28
    DennisC

    DennisC

    Status: Silver Member

    Joined: Mar 19 2011

    Posts: 357

    0

    Testing the Tests

    I had a couple links I wanted to share.  The first one is a decent (IMO) primer, relatively non-technical, about test types (immunoassay vs PCR), accuracy, and collecting samples.  Although Chris has explained "test accuracy" in the past, you may find the explanation here a good refresher on the details of sensitivity and specificity.

    https://heavy.com/news/2020/05/covid19-coronavirus-tests-accurate/

    The second link [indicates last update was July 2020] has some interesting evaluation data on tests by manufacturer.  Among other information you'll see are accuracy numbers, average CT, and one that I found most interesting, "supplier recommended CT cut-off".  In addition to a numeric entry like "<=40" you'll see "None; any signal can be considered positive".

    https://www.finddx.org/covid-19/sarscov2-eval-molecular/molecular-eval-results/

     

    For extra credit:

    https://spectrum.ieee.org/the-human-os/biomedical/diagnostics/testing-tests-which-covid19-tests-are-most-accurate

     

    Login or Register to post comments

  • Wed, Dec 02, 2020 - 2:08pm

    Mary59

    Mary59

    Status: Bronze Member

    Joined: Feb 09 2020

    Posts: 182

    1

    Santa Klaus' Handbook

    http://www3.weforum.org/docs/FOP_Readiness_Report_2018.pdf

    Please see the above link for  a big report from WEF as to which countries are more "ready" for the GREAT RESET.

    One hundred countries are profiled in great detail.

    Also I look at the jobs advertised in the WEF and UN.

    So those are two sources which can help decipher things.

    From the jobs being advertized by the WEF, the are massaging government and business leaders in Japan and they are moving into India also by the looks of things.

    From the Pilgrims Society, seems like  UK in the lead, with commonwealthers of Canada, New Zealand, Australia, Jamaica and India also in the first string...

    I need to analyze the UN jobs more as there are many but they seem interesting Civil Unrest alot.....

    Login or Register to post comments

  • Wed, Dec 02, 2020 - 2:36pm

    #30

    sofistek

    Status: Platinum Member

    Joined: Oct 02 2008

    Posts: 793

    3

    Hospitalisations

    Hospitalisations is also a major driver of policy on COVID-19. On current trends, US ICU beds will be 100% occupied by Christmas. I guess the non-ICU capacity would also be under strain.

    Login or Register to post comments

  • Wed, Dec 02, 2020 - 3:50pm

    #31
    wotthecurtains

    wotthecurtains

    Status: Platinum Member

    Joined: Feb 27 2020

    Posts: 952

    5

    Hospitalisations

    My home province just formally asked the Feds and Red Cross for help building field hospitals.

    Also some mysterious Apple Flavored Paste showed up in the mail today.   Think Ill hold onto that...

    Login or Register to post comments

  • Wed, Dec 02, 2020 - 6:29pm

    #32
    Chris Martenson

    Chris Martenson

    Status: Platinum Member

    Joined: Jun 07 2007

    Posts: 6651

    5

    Re: Hospitalizations

    On current trends, US ICU beds will be 100% occupied by Christmas.

    I tried to find a source for that.  Couldn't.

    One place ICU bed utilization is tracked is at Healthdata.gov (here: https://healthdata.gov/dataset/covid-19-estimated-patient-impact-and-hospital-capacity-state/resource/82e733c6-7baa-4c65#{view-graph:{graphOptions:{hooks:{processOffset:{},bindEvents:{}}}},graphOptions:{hooks:{processOffset:{},bindEvents:{}}}})

    Sloppy URL, I know.  It is what it is.

    At any rate, when I download their data and then graph it I get this:

    We could observe a slightly rising trend line.  Or we could note that ICU bed CapUte is more than 2 full points lower than a few weeks back.

    Either way, I can't get to 100% by XMAS.

    Of course, this is all states.  Individual states and locations may have issues, and I'm certain some do.

    But I should also note that the historical CapUte is usually between 70% and 80%, as it should be in a for-profit business model.

     

    Login or Register to post comments

  • Wed, Dec 02, 2020 - 7:31pm

    alicerabideau@hotmail.com

    [email protected]

    Status: Member

    Joined: Dec 03 2020

    Posts: 5

    Comment on Belgium,   A government list of directives is preserved from the Spanish Flu.   # 8  Said to gargle several times daily with bicarbonate water.   https://www.brusselstimes.com/belgium/103592/how-do-belgiums-coronavirus-and-spanish-flu-measures-compare/.         This was very common.  The use of baking soda in water was frequently declared as an effective preventative and treatment.

    bit.ly/acureforgottenfb

    Login or Register to post comments

  • Wed, Dec 02, 2020 - 8:10pm

    Mohammed Mast

    Mohammed Mast

    Status: Platinum Member

    Joined: May 17 2017

    Posts: 1474

    12

    Not My Pet Rocks Thor

    Well here is a tale for the ages.

    I am bullet proof to Covid. I have an arsenal of HCQ, Zpack, Ivermectin, and Doxycycline.

    My Vit D level is 95. . My protocol is Vit D, zinc, quercitin, elderberry, selenium, copper, Nac, Vit C, and a ton of other supps.

    If anyone thinks that will protect you from Staph I am here to disabuse you of that notion. I have never had Staph in my life till this year(north of 70) I have had it 4 (FOUR) times. I have been on antibiotics more than I have been off of them since February. It is nasty shit.

    For the last four weeks I have been on Minocycline. My Dermo finally did a culture. I found out the AB's I have been on were ineffective against Staph. So he switched me to Minocycline. That is some nasty shit. I dipped into the side effects and I had most of them. Nausea, Dizziness, Lightheadedness,   Then I dove a lot deeper. Night sweats. 4 weeks of night sweats. So I talk to the Dermo he cuts the dose from 2 a day to one. Now for 6 days I wake up with a temp of 95-95. At 1pm it starts to go up to over 100 sometimes 101+ So Monday I call my PCP for a Covid test. I get both the PCR and the rapid. Rapid comes back negative. After 4 days of symptoms that is conclusive. He takes blood. I ask him what's with the night sweats. He says probably hormone imbalance. So we do the thyroid panel.

    This morning results of blood test are , thyroid normal but liver enzymes elevated. That is serious shit. So I ask well what do I do. The woman says I don't know let me ask him. She calls me back and say come back in 6 weeks. lol elevated liver enzymes and come back in 6 weeks. So I ask well what do I have . She calls me back and say "what pharmacy do you want your prescription filled at"? I say "what for ? " She says "zpack" Lol thanks to Sunil I have an entire box of Azithromycin, HCQ< Ivermectin and Doxycycline. So I say well what do i have. She says I will ask him. She calls me back and says " he says you "probably" have Covid". Now this is 2 days after having a negative test. So I say thanks and hang up. I get a call a little while later and It is the Dr.'s office. They have the results of the PCR. It is negative. Now the funny part is on Monday I asked two of the nurses what the CT value of the test is. They looked ar me as if I just landed from a spaceship from Mars. They had no idea what I was talking about . So I explained it to them. It reminded me of going into banks and asking if they knew how money was created. Same blank looks or " Yeah the government prints it"

    So here I am having fevers for 6 straight days, night sweats for 4 weeks, elevated liver enzymes and I have to be the one to ask so what do I have and what do i do? So she says "I'll ask him" She calls me back and says "If you don't feel better by Monday come in to see him." ROTFLMAO

    Fortunately my wife knows an infectious disease specialist so she texted him and he agreed to see me. I have to get all my records together and sent to him. The PA said just request they fax it over to us. So I call the PCP and get someone who had no idea what was supposed to be done , so I had to explain it to him. My Dermo was another story. He is only in the office Mon-Wed. It is supposed to be till 3pm.  I called at 2;10. NA. Called again at 2;30. NA. So I will not be able to get the records to the IDS until Monday. I call the PCP again and talk to someone different and they tell me the IDS needs to make a request for the records. This is all happening while I have a fever and every joint is killing me.

    I apologize for the length but I just wanted for it all to be out there for the conspiracy theorists (of which I am one) . There may be some nefarious plan afoot with the tests. But that if it is happening it is happening at a higher level. The level of the interface of patient / doctor is completely broken. These idiots couldn't pull on their underwear let alone pull off a conspiracy. I have received far more compassionate and competent care for far less money in India than in this country. Trust me no one wants Medicare for all.

    So if you don't see me around "now you know the rest of the story" I will see you on the other side

    Login or Register to post comments

  • Wed, Dec 02, 2020 - 8:34pm

    #35
    2retired

    2retired

    Status: Bronze Member

    Joined: Jul 20 2020

    Posts: 246

    1

    2retired said:

    I have used mostly all of my 9 lives by now, mostly doing things I shouldn't have enjoyed so much; it just seems unfortunate to contemplate succumbing to a turbo charged Chinese cold virus after all that undeserved luck. With the advice and information on this forum, it may, possibly, allow me to slip under a few more wires

    Login or Register to post comments

  • Wed, Dec 02, 2020 - 8:49pm

    sofistek

    Status: Platinum Member

    Joined: Oct 02 2008

    Posts: 793

    1

    Apologies

    Sorry, Chris, I was recalling a graphic for California, not the US as a whole. Apologies. Here is a link which includes the graphic I saw (though I saw it in a different article).

    Login or Register to post comments

  • Thu, Dec 03, 2020 - 12:40am

    French connexion

    French connexion

    Status: Silver Member

    Joined: Mar 26 2020

    Posts: 282

    0

    ICU réanimation

    Thank you Chris for this explanation of the PCR test.

    https://mapthenews.maps.arcgis.com/apps/opsdashboard/index.html#/5df19abcf8714bc590a3b143e14a548c

    From this chart on the right hand side is the number of people testing positive on PCR tests in France (45 cycle) for a seven day period - with the seventh day dropping off as you go along. We were testing around 360 six weeks ago in our area, now we are below 80. If you click - on this same chart on the right-hand side - on the little arrow pointing left - you will get the percentage of réanimation ICU beds being used,  all purposes, in each département. There are a few "hot spots" like Ardeche where there are 18 patients in ICU for 8 beds. Clearly not enough beds.

    We have been duped by the misinformation regarding these tests - clearly a great number of people who are testing positive are not "contagious". We will know early next year to what extent this second lockdown was a folly when the comparatives of previous year's deaths versus 2020 are available.

    Login or Register to post comments

  • Thu, Dec 03, 2020 - 12:47am

    #38

    sofistek

    Status: Platinum Member

    Joined: Oct 02 2008

    Posts: 793

    2

    More on numbers

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/dec/02/us-braces-for-covid-19-surge-thanksgiving-holiday

    More than 100,000 hospitalisations, nearly 20,000 ICU patients and over 6,855 patients on ventilators (which seems a high proportion of ICU patients).

     

    Login or Register to post comments

  • Thu, Dec 03, 2020 - 5:45am

    Thors Hammer

    Thors Hammer

    Status: Bronze Member

    Joined: Feb 13 2020

    Posts: 68

    3

    Pet rock vaccines.

    Muhamad

    Sorry to hear about your ordeal.  But please do stay on this side a bit longer and continue with your erudite commentary.

    Just remember that there is no limit to human stupidity, and if we two legged lemmings all run off the cliff there will be other less destructive species to take our place.

    Login or Register to post comments

  • Thu, Dec 03, 2020 - 6:13am

    Thors Hammer

    Thors Hammer

    Status: Bronze Member

    Joined: Feb 13 2020

    Posts: 68

    4

    Political Medicine

    French Connection

    My conclusion:  There is a level at which the PCR test is quite accurate and useful in combating Corvid19.  That level of amplification is probably 25-30 at which point it identifies patients with high viral loading who pose a danger of spreading the disease.

    Test results achieved by exponential amplification at 40 or 50 cycles have only political uses and serve little or no medical purpose.  But they are great for creating panic and social control as "cases" can be arbitrarily ramped up to serve the goals of the Deciders.  I'm reminded of the Orange Alerts in the US from the Cheney era, where increases in terror threat level coincided precisely with electoral needs and served the sole purpose of strengthening the Homeland Security State.

    Flooding the country with millions of mail-in ballots opened the door to electoral fraud that would make any Bannana Republic proud.  None of that plan would have been possible without the Pandemic Panic that fed passive acceptance of such a transparent scheme.   Actions do have consequences.

    Login or Register to post comments

  • Thu, Dec 03, 2020 - 7:11am

    #41
    sand_kitty

    sand_kitty

    Status: Member

    Joined: Apr 13 2011

    Posts: 2005

    13

    Rough COVID Vax experience

    In the EM Docs facebook page, one of the doctors posts this:

    I signed up for the AstraZeneca trial. Covid vaccine day 1:
    The vaccine rocked me last night. Clearly did not get placebo. Got the shot around 3:30pm yesterday. By bedtime chills and aches that turned into shakes. Could barely pee before bed because of the shaking. Couldn’t sleep hot and cold. Got up to take Tylenol. Then still couldn’t sleep got up to take ibuprofen at 2:45am. I was 101.4 temp then crawled into the guest room still shaking. Feeling better this morning thankfully. Feverish feeling is gone. Now aches, slight chill and headache. My recommendation so far is to get the shot on a Friday when you are off for the weekend. So far just looks like a 24 hour thing. 😅
    If this is the same for Moderna and Pfizer, then people are not going to want the second shot.

    Login or Register to post comments

  • Thu, Dec 03, 2020 - 7:42am

    suziegruber

    suziegruber

    Status: Silver Member

    Joined: Dec 03 2008

    Posts: 271

    6

    Get Your Medical Records!

    MM,
    I am sorry to hear about your incredibly frustrating journey.  This reminds me of an experience I had about 10 years ago where I was tested for something and told the results were negative but when I got my medical records from my doctor, I learned the test actually came back positive.

    From this and other experiences of utter medical incompetence, I make it a habit to get my medical records after every significant interaction I have with doctors.  I do this for two reasons: first, I want to see if they neglected to tell me anything important (almost always yes) and second, this way I can send my records anywhere at anytime since I have them all stored as pdfs.

    Login or Register to post comments

  • Thu, Dec 03, 2020 - 8:55am

    #43
    VincitVeritas

    VincitVeritas

    Status: Member

    Joined: Dec 02 2020

    Posts: 19

    6

    Follow up on prev post and info about CT

    I just wanted to add some further information to my post yesterday as I don't want to mislead anyone.

    Apparently if you are using Applied Biosystems 7500 Fast Dx system, you get a plot of Delta Rn (or probe fluorescence) over CT.  I tried to attach an image of it, but the resolution is too poor to be of use.  If you want to see what your lab tech sees, you can find this information in a PDF document on page 24 from this FDA link: https://www.fda.gov/media/139743/download

    My assumption of how these tests are processed was not entirely correct (comparing to PDx), though other systems mentioned in the document were not as advanced and looked like it gave results that were very "pass/fail" so there would be no way of knowing CT.

    If your sample was processed at a facility that uses the AB 7500 Fast Dx system, then they should be able to give you your CT no problem.  I doubt the person calling people to give them their results was also the technician or analyst, so maybe ask to speak with an analyst or the lab supervisor to get this information.

    As for the probes...  I used the same approach that I used for scrutinizing the forward and reverse primers - ncbi blast.  Unfortunately, there is a close, but not perfect, match to some human RNA (15 out of 25), so who knows if they would bind.  I still feel like there is room for error/false positives on the probes as well.

    Take away message from all of this:

    If you want your state/country to avoid lock-downs, don't take the test unless you absolutely need to.  Are we beginning to see how this will become an endless loop fueled by sloppy science, fear mongering, and inaccurate tests?  Nothing is truly free - funny how they are quick to give these expensive tests out so easily.  Look at what they are doing around the world - complete disregard for human dignity.  Just because cases have risen, it should not change the fact that we are free to make decisions of what risks we are willing to take.

    Remember that much of these rules and safe measures are not law, so you dont have to comply.  If you dont want to get a fine, dont bring your cellphone.  They have been overtly tracking people where I live through cell phone data.  I know this because within 5 minutes of leaving my house with a phone, I get a personalized emergency alert (ie. no one I know gets them at the same time).  I have since turned off location services and do not take my phone with me anymore.

     

    Best of luck to all of you out there.  We are still a human family though we may not feel it as much these days.

     

    Login or Register to post comments

  • Thu, Dec 03, 2020 - 1:42pm

    #44
    alf-neuman-for-president

    alf-neuman-for-president

    Status: Member

    Joined: Sep 19 2020

    Posts: 52

    0

    alf-neuman-for-president said:

    I never subscribed to the downplaying of fomites and still spray down groceries . Glad i never stopped.

    Login or Register to post comments

  • Fri, Dec 04, 2020 - 1:13am

    #45
    Hladini

    Hladini

    Status: Bronze Member

    Joined: Dec 28 2011

    Posts: 388

    9

    THEY SHOULD BE ARRESTED!

    Here is our 12/3/20 briefing from Chris, and I just want to say.... when Chris says Fauci et el should lose their jobs, I say they should lose their freedom, if not their lives!  Like as in conviction for mass murder followed by execution.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z5-S49EqCJ8

     

    Login or Register to post comments

  • Fri, Dec 04, 2020 - 1:54am

    sofistek

    Status: Platinum Member

    Joined: Oct 02 2008

    Posts: 793

    3

    Dr Pierre Kory talks about Ivermectin (and HCQ)

    Interesting podcast featuring one of the authors of that report which Chris mentioned in his latest video. He's keen on Ivermectin but is being a little cagey about why the big organisations (CDC, WHO) haven't gotten on board. He also mentions HCQ and thinks it may have some impact but doesn't think the data support the idea of its being a game changer at all. He's an Ivermectin proponent.

    https://trialsitenews.com/dr-pierre-kory-talks-covid-19-ivermectin-and-the-flccc-podcast-e43/

    Login or Register to post comments

  • Fri, Dec 04, 2020 - 6:35am

    Mohammed Mast

    Mohammed Mast

    Status: Platinum Member

    Joined: May 17 2017

    Posts: 1474

    4

    Hi Suzie

    Yes I also get my records. Problem this time is I am sick. There are a ton of SC2 cases around and I am not going out unless necessary.

    This all happened over the phone I was not given any of my records.

    Here is one for the history books (My understanding is it is a Federal Law that mandates patients be given their records).

    To get my records (new ) sent to my new IDS I made 5 phone calls over 2 days. The new Doc will not see me until he gets my records. Makes sense. I got no results. My old doc would not give a referral (eventually he did) I was told I could come in and get my records. My plan was to pick them up and deliver to IDS. Get to ofc. I am refused my records. Now I am aching all over with a 101 temp and I had been told all I needed to do was sign a release to get my new records. They absolutely refused.

    Any lawyers or MD.'s wishing to chime in feel free.

    Doc finally gives referral late yesterday afternoon, after I went to new doc begging for help. going to lab directly, calling main ofc. of lab in Dallas to little avail.

    IDS was finally able to request my records.

    It is now Fri. and after my first visit to doc on Mon. I have no idea what my issue is nor what I should be doing.

    Welcome to the over regulated fascist empire of Amerika.

    Fuck it

    Login or Register to post comments

  • Fri, Dec 04, 2020 - 7:43am

    Rick

    Rick

    Status: Bronze Member

    Joined: Jul 19 2020

    Posts: 63

    2

    Sure Makes me want to get the shot

    wow - how exciting for those who believe the government

    Login or Register to post comments

  • Fri, Dec 04, 2020 - 7:54am

    Rick

    Rick

    Status: Bronze Member

    Joined: Jul 19 2020

    Posts: 63

    2

    Covid Story and Question

    Bother in law has family over for thanksgiving - nephew  then tests positive. BIL starts feeling bad(Tuesday) - we overnight him the 5 day regime (HCQ/Az + zinc)  bought from the India source that was recommended here many times. BIL in bed for 15 hours feeling poorly gets package next day (Wednesday). SIL still refuses to take the pills we sent her. This morning for the most part BIL symptoms gone.  Another HCQ success story - he did not use ivermectin. BIL told us he did not need to prepare (not a believer in this fake news on HCQ LOL) so we did not get him the ivermectin too - told him needs to source his own now for round 2 or other family)

    Question - so in one day he is feeling much better . Do you keep taking everything for the 5 days?

    Login or Register to post comments

  • Fri, Dec 04, 2020 - 8:46am

    Mohammed Mast

    Mohammed Mast

    Status: Platinum Member

    Joined: May 17 2017

    Posts: 1474

    3

    Rick

    Yes

    Login or Register to post comments

  • Fri, Dec 04, 2020 - 8:59am

    Jim H

    Status: Silver Member

    Joined: Jun 08 2009

    Posts: 1676

    3

    Stopping HCQ protocol early

    Rick,  First off, although Ivermectin is King of therapeutics based on it's broad applicability, including late use, HCQ is still well proven in it's niche of early treatment, and if it's what you have then you would be crazy not to use it.  Add Vitamin D >/= 5000 IU and Melatonin as per the protocol in Chris' video... this all works with HCQ as well as Ivermectin.

    Because the protocol includes Azithromycin, I would not stop it early for this alone.. not good on general principles to start a course of antibiotics and then stop early as this can lead to a bloom of more resistant bacteria.

    Login or Register to post comments

  • Fri, Dec 04, 2020 - 9:25am

    Thors Hammer

    Thors Hammer

    Status: Bronze Member

    Joined: Feb 13 2020

    Posts: 68

    1

    Thors Hammer said:

    Sand Puppy

    It is my impression that the AstraZeneca vaccine is more like a conventional (detuned virus) vaccine and not a mRNA delivery protein modifier like the Pfizer & Moderna offerings. If this is correct the side effects could be expected to be entirely different and emerge in a time frame that could be years away rather than immediately.

    In Russia they are moving ahead with a mass inoculation of their Sputnik V vaccine, which is also a conventional modified virus vaccine.  Of course learning what the immediate results are is difficult at best, with centralized information control in Russia and complete MSM censorship in the US.  Even if the Russian vaccine proves to be 97% effective, cheap, and used worldwide it will be banned in the US just like HCQ.

    Login or Register to post comments

  • Fri, Dec 04, 2020 - 9:39am

    #53
    Mysterymet

    Mysterymet

    Status: Silver Member

    Joined: May 23 2020

    Posts: 451

    5

    Ivermectin works so of course the gov is against it

    https://www.covid19treatmentguidelines.nih.gov/antiviral-therapy/ivermectin/
    Seems to me that some of the powers that be might want to keep people dying to keep us afraid of this thing.

    Login or Register to post comments

  • Fri, Dec 04, 2020 - 10:16am

    RandomMike

    RandomMike

    Status: Silver Member

    Joined: Mar 12 2020

    Posts: 389

    2

    Jim H--stopping early

    https://www.consumerreports.org/antibiotics/why-you-may-not-have-to-finish-those-antibiotics/

    Login or Register to post comments

  • Fri, Dec 04, 2020 - 11:36am

    Jim H

    Status: Silver Member

    Joined: Jun 08 2009

    Posts: 1676

    9

    AstraZeneca is still based on mRNA, only via an indirect (DNA) delivery mechanism

    None of the vaccines getting ready for use are of the traditional type.  This MedCram video lays it all out very clearly.  I am deep into my own research at the moment to decide for myself whether an mRNA vaccine, for which long term effects are unknown, is scary or not.  I don't question whether it would be short term effective against Covid-19.. I worry about unintended long term consequences.  The mRNA approach seems to me a pretty strong hammer to throw into our delicate immune systems.    Best regards, Jim





    Login or Register to post comments

  • Fri, Dec 04, 2020 - 11:43am

    #56

    blackeagle

    Status: Bronze Member

    Joined: May 16 2013

    Posts: 267

    3

    Immunity against Covid

    Can we develop immunity slowly without being sick? The virus is with us since almost one year now. Many people did not get sick (Yet?). Is it possible that they develop immunity by getting in touch with the virus a little by a little, just enough of a viral load to be detected by our immune system but not enough to trig the full arsenal? Each time a few viruses gets in, the immune system cleans them out and develop the proper antibodies? I am assuming the person is in excellent health, takes the proper precautions (wash hands, masks, distancing, etc.).

     

    Login or Register to post comments

  • Fri, Dec 04, 2020 - 4:42pm

    pinecarr

    Status: Platinum Member

    Joined: Apr 13 2008

    Posts: 1453

    5

    Wishing you well, Mohammed Mast

    Mohammed, I am so sorry to hear that you are sick, and of the cluster-f#ck you've been through with your doctors.  I hope you find a competent medical professional who can help you.  Sending white light your way!

    Login or Register to post comments

  • Fri, Dec 04, 2020 - 6:27pm

    #58
    Chris Martenson

    Chris Martenson

    Status: Platinum Member

    Joined: Jun 07 2007

    Posts: 6651

    7

    IMPORTANT! Directory of doctors prescribing effective treatments

    This was just brought to my attention over on Twitter:

    https://www.exstnc.com/

    It's a directory of doctors who will either/both prescribe HCQ and/or IVM.

    +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    DIRECTORY

    MULTIPLE COUNTRIES (Remote)

    Brazilian Health Group USA (IVM)               1 (888)-447-7902

    Dr. Mobeen Syed (IVM)                                 support@drbeen.com

    ARGENTINA

    Dr. Hector Eduardo Carvallo (IVM)                11 4389 1215

    Dr. Maria Eugenia Farinella (IVM)                  11 4389 1215

    Dr. Roberto Raul Hirsch (IVM)                        11 4360 5700

    Dr. Rodrigo Zoni (IVM)                                    54 379 441 00 00

    AUSTRALIA

    The Centre for Digestive Diseases (IVM)      2 9713 4011       [email protected]    referrals

    Dr. Peter Lewis (IVM)                                       9822 9996

    Dr. Shashikanth Manikappa (IVM)                  3 8768 1200

    Dr. Kylie Wagstaff (IVM)                                  3 9902  9348

    BANGLADESH

    Dr. Mohammad Tarek Alam (IVM)                 9120792 93

    BRASIL (BRAZIL)

    Dr. Geysa Regina Canarim Pin (IVM)             17 3216 3408   (São José do Rio Preto)

    Dr. Renato J. Freitas (IVM)                              17 3227 0508   (São José do Rio Preto)

    Dr. Lucy Kerr (IVM)                                           55 11 3287-3755 (São Paulo)

    Dr. Fernando Suassuna (IVM)                         55 84 98103 1515  (Natal)

    Dr. Nise Hitomi Yamaguchi (HCQ)                 55 11 21411446  (São Paulo)

    CANADA

    Dr. Kulvinder Kaur Gill (HCQ)                         (905) 452 0015

    FRANCE

    Dr. Sabine Paliard-Franco (HCQ)                   3 81 07 62 64

    Dr. Denis Gastaldi (HCQ)                                3 87 86 31 05

    Dr. Jean-Jacques Erbstein (HCQ)                  3 87 94 49 71

    GERMANY

    Dr. Peter Kremsner (IVM)                                07071 29 87179

    DOMINICAN REPUBLIC

    NOTE: in the Dominican Republic, IVM is used widely both for prophylaxis and for treatment of COVID-19.

    Some doctors add HCQ as well to their protocol.

    Dr. José Natalio Redondo (IVM)                    [email protected]

    GUATEMALA

    Dr. Jorge Alfonso Lemus (IVM)                       WhatsApp 502 5391 7777  (Guatemala City)

    INDIA

    Dr. Rakesh Arora (IVM)                                    99 71055822

    Dr. V. K. Arora (IVM)                                         120 4880077

    Dr. Digambar Behera (IVM)                             172 274 7585

    Dr. Bhupesh Dewan (IVM)                               22 30610000

    Dr. Surya Kant (IVM)                                         522 2255167

    Dr. Rahul Mayekar (IVM)                                  22 2406 3000

    Dr. Parthiv Mehta (IVM)                                    757 500 4800

    Dr. Narayana Pradeep (IVM)                            949 6358176

    Dr. P. Sarat Singh (IVM)                                    38 5244 3144

    Dr. Mohankumar Thekkinkatti (IVM)l              759 8110066

    Dr. Agam Vora (IVM)                                        22 2895 4811

    ITALY

    Dr. Angela Patri  (IVM)                                      081 253 1111

    Dr. Gabriella Fabbrocini (IVM)                         081 414 808

    MEXICO

    Dr. Guadalupe Espitia Hernández (IVM)        55 54471424 ext 13272  (Mexico City)

    Dr. Ezequiel Jose Castro Ortiz (IVM)              [email protected] (Monterrey)

    Dr. José Humberto Galindo Rendón (IVM)    (492) 156 0805  (Zacatecas)

    PAKISTAN

    Dr. Najma Parveen (IVM)                                 322 5335786

    Dr. Sohaib Ashraf (IVM)                                    333 447452

    PERU

    Dr. Gustavo Aguirre Chang (IVM)                   511- 6197000

    Dr. Carlos Calampa Del Águila (IVM)             1 641 9847

    Dr. Antonio Camargo  (IVM)                           WhatsApp +51 942610346       [email protected]

    Dr. Jose Eduardo Gotuzzo Heritage (IVM)    1 319 0000

    PHILIPPINES

    Dr. Allan A. Landrito (IVM)                              09323137060      [email protected]

    SPAIN

    Dr. Carlos Chaccour (IVM)                               93 227 1806

    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    USA

    ALL STATES

    Dr. Michael Uphues (IVM + HCQ)       (406) 702-4418   Text "urgent" or email: [email protected]

                                                                                               Telemed anywhere. Meds delivered by pharmacy network.

    Rehoboth Medical Center                   http://rehobothmedicalcenter.com/telemedicine-consultation/

    ALABAMA

    Dr. David Calderwood (HCQ)               (256) 535-5944

    CALIFORNIA

    Dr. Jeffrey Barke (IVM)                           (949) 706-3300

    Dr. Teryn Clarke (HCQ)                          (949) 644-1943

    Dr. George C. Fareed (HCQ)                 (760) 351-4400

    ​Dr. Simone Gold (HCQ)                         (323) 657-5900

    Dr. Bob Hamilton (HCQ)                        (310) 264-2100

    Dr. Sabine Hazan (IVM)                          (805) 339-0221

    Dr. Joseph Ladapo (HCQ)                      (310) 206-6232

    Dr. Mark McDonald (HCQ)                    (310) 954-9565

    Dr. Donald C. Pompan (HCQ)               (831) 770-0444

    Dr. Mobeen Syed (IVM + HCQ)            support@drbeen.com

    Dr. Brian M.Tyson (HCQ)                        (760) 592-4351

    Dr. Daniel Wohlgelernter (HCQ)          (310) 315-0101

    CONNECTICUT

    Dr. Steven Phillips (HCQ + IVM)          203-544-0005

    FLORIDA

    Dr. Bruce Boris (IVM)                               (305) 294-0011

    Dr. Peter H. Hibberd (IVM)                     (561) 655-4477

    Dr. Michael M. Jacobs (HCQ)                (850) 912-2000

    Dr. Jasen Kobobel (IVM)                        (321) 636-0005

    Dr. Ben Marble (HCQ)                            (850) 776-5555

    Dr. Juliana Rajter (IVM)                           (954) 906-6000

    Dr. Jean-Jacques Rajter (IVM)               (954) 906-6000

    Dr. Juan Pascal Suarez-Lopez (IVM)      (407) 843-0151

    Dr. Andres Felipe Velasco (IVM)            (386) 574-1423

    GEORGIA

    Dr. Scott Barbour (HQ)                           (404) 480-9330

    LOUISIANA

    Dr. Lauren Mickey (IVM)                         (318) 322-9882

    MICHIGAN

    Dr. David Brownstein (Iodine, etc.).      248-851-1600

    Dr. James Todaro (HCQ)                        (313) 593-7000

    MONTANA

    Dr. Michael Uphues (IVM + HCQ)         (406) 702-4418

    NEW JERSEY

    Dr. Stavros Christoudias (HCQ)             (201) 833-2888

    Dr. Alieta Eck (IVM)                                 (732) 463-0303

    Dr. Stephen M. Smith (HCQ)                 (862) 772-7822

    NEW YORK

    Dr. Avni Thakore (HCQ)                          (855) 247-4500

    Dr. Vadimir Zelenko (HCQ + IVM)          (845) 782-0000

    PENNSYLVANIA

    Dr. Alexis S. Lieberman (IVM)                 (215) 774-1166

    TEXAS

    Dr. Robin Armstrong (HCQ)                    (409) 938-5000

    Dr. Kristin Held (HCQ)                             (210) 890-2827

    Dr. Eder Hernández DMSc,PA-C (IVM)  (956) 518-7444

    Dr. Stella Immanuel (HCQ)                      (281) 530-1230

    April E. López NP, MSN (IVM)                 (956) 627-5555

    Dr. Ivette Lozano (HCQ)                          (214) 660-1616

    Dr. Peter McCullough (HCQ + IVM)       (469) 800-7477

    Dr. Brian Procter (HCQ)                           (972) 562-8388

    Dr. Richard G. Urso (IVM)                         (713) 668-6828

    +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    Login or Register to post comments

  • Fri, Dec 04, 2020 - 6:27pm

    #59
    Snowball Financial

    Snowball Financial

    Status: Member

    Joined: Apr 13 2013

    Posts: 18

    1

    Shutdowns based on what?

    While I really appreciate the reporting in this video, I'm wondering how much public health impact the conclusions really have.

     

    Around here (California) the new regional restrictions aren't based on testing at all. The trigger is falling below a 15% of ICU bed capacity. So test results, false, real, or indeterminant, would seem to have no influence.

    Login or Register to post comments

  • Fri, Dec 04, 2020 - 8:02pm

    Mohammed Mast

    Mohammed Mast

    Status: Platinum Member

    Joined: May 17 2017

    Posts: 1474

    1

    Awesome list

    That is an awesome list. It needs to be stickied somewhere

    Login or Register to post comments

  • Fri, Dec 04, 2020 - 8:06pm

    Mohammed Mast

    Mohammed Mast

    Status: Platinum Member

    Joined: May 17 2017

    Posts: 1474

    1

    pinecarr

    Awww. Thanks,it means a lot.

    Being sick is what it is. The shitty doctors is what is really bad.

    Standing in the WR with a temp of 101 and being told I can't get my medical records in violation of Federal law. Is obscene. I could not get another doctor w/o them. I amazed myself with my self control. lol

    Thanks again.

    Login or Register to post comments

  • Fri, Dec 04, 2020 - 9:29pm

    #62
    2retired

    2retired

    Status: Bronze Member

    Joined: Jul 20 2020

    Posts: 246

    0

    2retired said:

    It is odd that these rules are put in place to protect the hospitals and ICUs; it used to be thought that hospitals and ICUs were there to help and protect us! This is a great video from an English nurse

    Lifelong Nurse, Nicky Millen, Full Interview on Covid NHS Experiences

    Login or Register to post comments

  • Sat, Dec 05, 2020 - 9:36am

    Anders L.

    Anders L.

    Status: Member

    Joined: Aug 27 2020

    Posts: 5

    1

    Sweden.

    We only have ivermectin available for topical application for scabies and as veterinary medicin for parasites.

    Login or Register to post comments

  • Sat, Dec 05, 2020 - 10:28am

    ao

    ao

    Status: Platinum Member

    Joined: Feb 04 2009

    Posts: 1600

    3

    Mohammed, sorry to hear of your experience but it has become the norm

    First of all, I am keeping you in my prayers for a speedy and uneventful recovery as well as for you to have forbearance with and forgiveness to those who have obviously wronged you.  Unfortunately, your experience has become all too common in our broken medical system and, as I'm sure you are aware, the situation is unlikely to change for the better any time soon.  In fact, it's likely to deteriorate further and has been steadily doing so. 

    It's one of the reasons I retired when I did.  I could no longer tolerate a system that I felt I was battling against every day.  In a more ideal world,  I probably would have worked until I dropped because I loved what I did and was very good at it.  To tell the truth, a certain part of me felt guilty about retiring since I was blessed with having acquired knowledge and skills to help others that I know are uncommon.  But it took a toll on me which is all too clear now and I had to get away from it, if not for my physical health, then certainly for my psychological health.

    Just this week, I had a follow-up appointment with my medical oncologist.  Here's a very brief summation of some of the problems encountered.  The physician, while pleasant and polite was also, at the same time, rather disengaged.  There was no real human-to-human connection, even more so with the barrier of a mask and not even a simple handshake.  I get the sense he's close to retirement and just putting in his time.  While he answered (succinctly) any questions I had, no other information was forthcoming.  He had just gotten back from an extended (two month) vacation and did not seem up on things in terms of notes, times, medications, etc.  He also told me I was going to get an injection of one medication which I questioned (because of my prior knowledge of its lack of availability) and it turned out he was unaware that particular medication was unavailable (and has been so for at least 3 months that I know of, another example both of his disconnect and of our system breaking down). 

    At my last appointment, a key blood test result was not available so I took the extra precaution of coming in a day early for this blood test to ensure that the physician would have it for my appointment.  Even with that precaution on my part, the blood test was still unavailable.  I asked them to call me with the results when the results came in but after 48 hours, there was still no call for results which should have been available the same day as the test.  And now we are into the weekend and I still don't know the results. 

    The nurse that administered the injection was pleasant and polite but also seemed to be anxious and stressed.  She failed to use proper sterile technique with the band-aid (sticking it to the arm of my chair where the gauze part touched the arm of the chair!!!) and then walked around and down the hall with the needle exposed searching for something she needed.  She also seemed unsure of herself administering the injection and had some minor difficulty doing so (which certainly does not engender confidence on the part of the patient).  In addition, the medication had not been prepared beforehand as it should have been and there was quite a long wait before it could be administered. 

    On previous occasions, with two other doctors, their lack of knowledge of certain areas was, to me (as someone who always did his best to keep up on things) quite astounding and they were downright wrong about certain other things.  Each of these factors were minor in and of themselves but, in aggregate, they reflect a system that is rife with inefficiency, often incompetent, not infrequently corrupt, and almost always, by the leadership at least, driven by profit over any expressed pretenses of care and compassion.  And it's a system that truly cares little for health as shown both by what it espouses and demonstrates as well as by how it treats many of its workers who genuinely care for their patients and try to do their best but have difficulty doing so secondary to being overworked and stressed in understaffed facilities run more by bean counters than by those who are driven by more altruistic and noble motives.

    It is fortunate for you that you are very intelligent, educated, have critical reasoning skills, and have financial resources and can therefore take at least some steps to be independent and self reliant in your health care.  God help those who are not in your position which is a substantial portion of our population.

    Once again, I wish you well and will keep you in my prayers and if there is anything I can offer to help, please PM me.       

    Login or Register to post comments

  • Sat, Dec 05, 2020 - 10:36am

    RandomMike

    RandomMike

    Status: Silver Member

    Joined: Mar 12 2020

    Posts: 389

    1

    RandomMike said:

    Anders L -- sort of the same in the US, but it is the veterinary medicine for parasites that people can (theoretically, in a fantasy discussion) use, but you have to figure carefully how much of it to take. Information is here somewhere. Why not try a smoothie?

    Login or Register to post comments

  • Sat, Dec 05, 2020 - 2:59pm

    Mohammed Mast

    Mohammed Mast

    Status: Platinum Member

    Joined: May 17 2017

    Posts: 1474

    8

    And I Thought I Had Problems.

    Sorry to hear of your experiences. It is sad the state of health/sick care is in this country. Actually it is criminal. If I were able to travel I would be in India. I can't speak to Europe but, Costa Rica, Thailand and India have far more compassionate and most importantly competent care. I had a medical travel business for awhile. I visited many hospitals and did business in different countries. Amerikans have no idea how badly they are being treated. People travel for medical care overseas first because it is cheaper. They will go back because it is better.

    Unfortunately mediocrity infects the entire country. When was the last time the US produced a "statesman"? In the building trades it is pitiful the lack of quality across the board. I never really appreciated how different the cloth I was cut from until I became a builder. My philosophy has always been if you are going to do something do it to the best of your ability. If your heart aint in it? Get you sorry backside out. The materials exist at reasonable cost to build houses to last 500 years. Will they?

    We no longer make anything in this country. We can't. If we don't hold ourselves as sacred then we know why we don't hold our mother or anyone around as sacred.  Well here we are.

    I too wish you well. What you are dealing with is far more serious than what I am (I think lol).

    As for forgiveness I will leave with a rendering of Hafez by my friend Danny Ladinsky from "The Subject tonight is Love". Hafez was a 14th century Perfect Master who is considered the greatest poet. He inspired Goethe, the Transcendentalists and many more.

    Forgiveness Is The Cash

    Forgiveness is the cash you need

    All other kinds of silver just buy strange things

    Everything has music

    Everything has genes of god inside

    But learn from those addicted lovers of glands and ganja and gold

    Look they cannot jump high or chuckle long when they are whirling

    And the moon and stars become sad when their tender light is used for night wars.

    Forgiveness is part of the cash you need to craft your falcon wings

    and return to your true realm of divine freedom

    Login or Register to post comments

  • Sun, Dec 06, 2020 - 9:24am

    suziegruber

    suziegruber

    Status: Silver Member

    Joined: Dec 03 2008

    Posts: 271

    5

    Another Gem from Hafiz

    Mohammed Mast,
    Thank you for bringing on the wisdom of Hafiz.  Here's my favorite piece from him.

    Cast All Your Votes For Dancing

    I know the voice of depression
    Still calls to you.

    I know those habits that can ruin your life
    Still send their invitations.

    But you are with the Friend now
    And look so much stronger.

    You can stay that way
    And even bloom!

    Keep squeezing drops of the Sun
    From your prayers and works and music
    And from your companions' beautiful laughter

    Keep squeezing drops of the Sun
    From the sacred hands and glance of your Beloved
    And, my dear,
    From the most insignificant movements
    Of your own holy body.

    Learn to recognize the counterfeit coins
    That may buy you just a moment of pleasure
    But then drag you for days
    Like a broken man
    Behind a farting camel.

    You are with the Friend now.
    Learn what actions of yours delight Him,
    What actions of yours bring freedom
    And Love.

    Whenever you say God's name, dear pilgrim,
    My ears wish my head was missing
    So they could finally kiss each other
    And applaud all your nourishing wisdom!

    O keep squeezing drops of the Sun
    From your prayers and work and music
    And from your companions' beautiful laughter
    And from the most insignificant movements
    Of your own holy body.

    Now, sweet one,
    Be wise.
    Cast all your votes for Dancing!

    Login or Register to post comments

  • Sun, Dec 06, 2020 - 8:30pm

    Quercus bicolor

    Status: Gold Member

    Joined: Mar 19 2008

    Posts: 1085

    2

    I cast all my votes for dancing

    Thank you Suzie Gruber!

    I didn't know that one by Hafiz.  It's now my new favorite.

    I've been dancing every night in my backyard since September and I totally agree with Hafiz.

    Keep squeezing drops of the Sun
    From the sacred hands and glance of your Beloved
    And, my dear,
    From the most insignificant movements
    Of your own holy body.

    And from the wind in the trees and the big oak that dances with you and the full moon and Mars and Orion and the clouds as they race across the sky ...

    Login or Register to post comments

  • Mon, Dec 07, 2020 - 8:41am

    #69
    Mohammed Mast

    Mohammed Mast

    Status: Platinum Member

    Joined: May 17 2017

    Posts: 1474

    1

    Hafez

    Hafez wrote in Farsi (Actually sang)  Danny who is a dear old friend of mine does not read Farsi. It is a grave mistake to think that what you are reading is Hafez. They are "renderings" made from English translations. They are essentially Danny's poems.

    This does not in any way diminish the sentiments or wisdom expressed.

    I have another friend who is Amerikaan and is fluent in Farsi. He studied in Iran with Hafez scholars there until the revolution. He may have been the last westerner to escape. He has been translating Hafez for over 40 years. You can find some of his work in "The Illuminated Hafez" , along with some art work by some friends of mine. https://www.sheriarbooks.org/product/the-illuminated-hafiz/ Some of the Hafez poems my friend translated will be found in the book by looking for the poems that are accompanied by the Farsi.

    I do not wish to hijack this thread and we are off topic but there is clearly a need and an interest in the perspective Hafez shares.

    Hafez's story is one of the most beautiful stories of the soul's journey back to God. His poetry describes the various states that the soul passes through from the gross, to the subtle to the mental and finally to God Realization. Farsi is an extremely "dense" language. It can be read on many different levels. One gleans from Hafez that which one is prepared to receive. It is meant to be transcendent. This is the heart of true Sufism.

    That said Danny's renderings do serve the purpose of spreading the name of Hafez far and wide. For a deeper part of the journey there are other camels to ride.

    Glad to know Danny's work has spread here.

    Login or Register to post comments

  • Tue, Dec 08, 2020 - 10:15pm

    #70
    Jimmy Thompson

    Jimmy Thompson

    Status: Member

    Joined: Mar 13 2020

    Posts: 1

    0

    This BBQ guy is a media manufactured lightening rod.

    Think tank and PAC connected far right media are using this guy as a battering ram. Or the other way around?? That may be some explanation for the relaxed nature of the police – they know it’s more comedy than tragedy. Good observation, though – big contrast from the G20 in 2010 how bout that).

    Here's commentary about it in the first half of this podcast:

    https://www.canadaland.com/podcast/288-a-working-class-hero-is-nothing-to-bbq/

    Our premier is on the bandwagon about this as well, not missing an opportunity for self boosterism. He just publicly apologized for directing all retail sales to amazon and costco in the spring. He’s a fundamentalist, just like Kristi Noem but without the good looking farm girl bit.

    Chris, don’t you think that many small businesses are make work projects? Kitch restaurants and high-end retailers for people with money. You’re pal JHK says you can’t trust a town without a hardware store. That means that activities that have guaranteed revenue because they have utility value and demographic advantage have been monopolized, right? So, I don’t feel I should be obligated to float activities that are mostly a function of boomtown economics while my own family’s future is uncertain.

    I do support legit local business when I can for reasons that are obvious to you. And when I do, my family and friends think it’s ridiculous. Sound familiar?

    BTW - In Canada the legal threshold for small business is 99 or fewer employees. The mom and pops are in there somewhere, I guess. Just to keep in mind when we get fed  the stats in the future.

    Data   https://www.ic.gc.ca/eic/site/061.nsf/eng/h_03090.html

    Login or Register to post comments

  • Thu, Dec 10, 2020 - 6:02am

    #71
    tbp

    tbp

    Status: Platinum Member

    Joined: Apr 12 2020

    Posts: 1121

    1

    One way to effectively kill Staph

    ^ Why the bashing of Kristi Noem, easily the single best American Governor?

    @Mohammed Mast
    So if you don't see me around "now you know the rest of the story" I will see you on the other side

    Dying may be no fun due to physical and/or mental discomfort, but death itself is the most fun experience you'll ever have, especially if you don't hold strong beliefs about the afterlife. But don't give up just yet, I bet you'll heal even if you don't use any drugs. I know little about Staph, but I know one thing that should work: chlorine dioxide. It works even against the most antibacterial-resistant strains, within a few days at most. There is no escaping electron theft.

    https://qplusnews.com/chlorine-dioxide-effective-against-viruses-bacteria-and-fungus

    “A germicidal solution has been developed containing CLO2 at an acid PH (lactic acid). The solution gave complete kill of Staphylococcus aureus; Pseudomonas and Candida albicans spores within 10 minutes.”

    Do an unfiltered/uncensored search on Youtube (i.e. a "site:" search on an uncensored search engine) to see how to make it: https://duckduckgo.com/?q=chlorine+dioxide+how+to+make+site%3Ayoutube.com

    Using it has a bit of a learning curve but it's well worth it. There are several protocols that can be followed: https://andreaskalcker.com/en/cds-clo2/cds-protocols.html

    Another idea is niacin (500-1000mg), which is equally easy to get but easier to use, which should pump bacteria from the core out to the periphery along with increasing your general metabolic ability and immune system capabilities. I don't know if it'd be as useful as CDS though.

    Login or Register to post comments

  • Thu, Dec 10, 2020 - 6:41am

    #72
    davefairtex

    davefairtex

    Status: Member

    Joined: Sep 03 2008

    Posts: 2915

    0

    killing Staph with niacin

    Yes.  Niacin helps kill staph - in vitro, and also in this mouse model too.

    https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/249511

    Nicotinamide, commonly known as vitamin B3, may help the innate immune system kill antibiotic-resistant staph bacteria, the so-called “superbugs”. In lab work done with mice and human blood, researchers found high doses of the vitamin increased the ability of immune cells to kill the bacteria by 1,000 times.

    ----

    In this latest study, the team showed mice bred to be deficient in C/EBPε were severely affected by infection with S. aureus, and it was deficiency of the C/EBPε protein in their neutrophils (a type of white blood cell that kills and devours harmful bacteria), that was responsible.

    They then showed that high doses of vitamin B3 (the molecule acts as an “epigenetic modulator”, that is it can switch genes on an off) increasing expression of C/EBPε in cultures of the appropriate (myeloid) immune cells.

    In another experiment, they also found that vitamin B3 increased the activity of the gene, and selected bacterial targets, particularly in neutrophils.

    And finally, in a mouse model, as well as in mouse and human blood cultures, they showed vitamin B3 “enhanced killing of S. aureus by up to 1,000 fold”, but it had no effect when given to mice that were either deficient in C/EBPε or in mice depleted of neutrophils.

    The researchers found that in human blood, vitamin B3 was able to wipe out the staph infection in a few hours.

    I'm guessing that straight Niacin would be safer than NAM, given all the information that Kats has provided.   NA doesn't strain the liver, which NAM does at high doses.  He believes that the flush is the therapy in action.  "Enjoy the flush."

    The therapeutic index of nicotinamide is wide but at very high doses reversible hepatotoxicity has been reported in animals and humans. Minor abnormalities of liver enzymes can infrequently occur at the doses used for diabetes prevention.

    Man.  That niacin stuff is useful.

    Really, really useful.  Good to know.  Gyms - especially boxing gyms - can be a bit dangerous this way.

    Thanks again Dr Kats.  Wherever you are.

    Login or Register to post comments