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    Garbage ‘Science’: Be Wary Of What You’re Being Told

    by Adam Taggart

    Friday, May 29, 2020, 8:54 AM

Man, with the major pandemic and economic risks we all have to deal with, it’s so frustrating to have to waste time and energy addressing the plague of crap ‘science’ being dumped on us on a daily basis.

It’s so unnecessary. Our society knows how to do science well. But due to Big Pharma protecting its profits, or political agendas, or whatever the reasons may be — we are not getting rigorous trustworthy research findings at a time when we need them most.

Yet once again, we’re find ourselves forced to wade back in the hydroxychloroquine debate. This time to respond to (or more accurately, eviscerate) the most recent study on HCQ appearing in The Lancet. Whether or not its conclusions are accurate, who knows? But its methodology is for certain shoddy as hell.

Why are we still being given such poorly-constructed and shoddy results by our science ‘experts’? By this time, we should have a plethora of rigorous, peer-reviewed studies giving us clear, dependable answers we can use to create smart health policy decisions.

But instead, we’re still being fed a daily diet of garbage ‘science’:

In today’s video, Chris announces the good news that our RESILIENCE shirt production partner is finally back in action.

To get your own shirt, click here.
________________________
LINKS FROM THIS VIDEO:

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(20)31180-6/fulltext

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/may/27/global-report-european-countries-act-against-use-hydroxychloroquine-infections-up-south-korea

https://codeblue.galencentre.org/2020/05/28/who-tells-indonesia-to-stop-using-hydroxychloroquine/

https://www.theguardian.com/science/2020/may/28/questions-raised-over-hydroxychloroquine-study-which-caused-who-to-halt-trials-for-covid-19

https://melwy.com/blog/lancet-paper-on-chloroquine-is-overhyped-real-world-data-should-not-be-a-black-box

Yale Epidemiology Professor Urges Hydroxychloroquine & Azithromycin Early Therapy for COVID-19

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172 Comments

  • Fri, May 29, 2020 - 9:00am

    #1

    LesPhelps

    Status: Silver Member

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    16+

    Riot Worthy

    I have sympathy for one individual who was mistreated by authorities, but handling of HCQ science and the entire virus response should have everyone up in arms.

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  • Fri, May 29, 2020 - 9:13am

    #2

    Jim H

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    Joined: Jun 08 2009

    Posts: 1161

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    Indian equivalent of CDC writes to WHO regarding HCQ

    I forgot to mention in posted the English subtitled Didier Raoult interview late yesterday that one of the things he does is call BS on the 10% cardiac events "seen" in the data across the world in the Lancet study... in his experience across more than three thousand patients this rate is zero.

    The latest, post-Lancet, Raoult interview in case you missed it;

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r3iwYcgcaxk

     

    https://www.newindianexpress.com/nation/2020/may/29/icmr-writes-to-who-disagreeing-with-hcq-assessment-officials-say-international-trial-dosage-four-ti-2149702.html

    Buoyed by the preliminary success observed in the treatment of COVID-19 patients through these HCQ tablets, the Indian Council of Medical Research (ICMR) has written to the WHO.

    In a letter via an email, Dr Sheela Godbole, National Coordinator of the WHO-India Solidarity Trial and Head of the Division of Epidemiology, ICMR-National AIDS Research Institute has written to Dr Soumya Swaminathan, Chief Scientist at World Health Organization.

    In a letter, Dr Godbole stated: "There was no reason to suspend the trial for safety concern."

    When contacted Dr Godbole, she said: "Only one arm of the Solidarity trial by WHO has temporary been paused for a time being i.e. HCQ arm, other arms of the clinical trial are still active."

    On Thursday, Dr VK Paul, Member Niti Aayog and Chairman of empowered group 1 said: "When we see the present evidence of HCQ, there are fewer side-effects...We have studied HCQ drug very closely with our scientists and hence as per the latest government guidelines--HCQ drug can be given to frontline workers and severe coronavirus patients. However, these guidelines would be reviewed from time to time," said Paul.

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  • Fri, May 29, 2020 - 9:36am

    #3

    Jim H

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    The hit parade of reasons why the Lancet article is BS marches on

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  • Fri, May 29, 2020 - 9:39am

    westcoastjan

    westcoastjan

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    Pepe Escobar agrees Les

    Our Grim Future: Restored Neoliberalism or Hybrid Neofascism?

    Post-Lockdown turbo-capitalism is once again reasserting itself after four decades of Thatcherization, or – to be polite – hardcore neoliberalism. Progressive forces still don’t have the ammunition to revert the logic of extremely high profits for the ruling classes – EU governance included – and for large global corporations as well.

    Economist and philosopher Frederic Lordon, a researcher at the French CNRS, cuts to the inevitable chase: the only solution would be a revolutionary insurrection. And he knows exactly how the financial markets-corporate media combo would never allow it. Big Capital is capable of co-opting and sabotaging anything.

    So this is our choice: it’s either Neoliberal Restoration or a revolutionary rupture. And nothing in between. It takes someone of Marx’s caliber to build a full-fledged, 21st century eco-socialist ideology, and capable of long-term, sustained mobilization. Aux armes, citoyens.

     

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  • Fri, May 29, 2020 - 9:43am

    #5
    Chris Martenson

    Chris Martenson

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    More Evidence of Overt Fraud in Lancet Study

    If I were prosecuting this case we'd be ready for trial.

    Surgisphere has a clear pattern of misuse of data that has to constitute fraud.

    Exhibit A:  They claimed to have hospital data on 63,315 North american Covid patients on April 14th.  Problem?  There were only a bit over 67,000 patients in all of North America by that date.  So Surgisphere claims to have had records on 94.5% of all known patients.

     

    Exhibit B:  Surgisphere claims that its total database consisted of 671 hospitals across the world and that 65.9% of ALL patients came from North America.  Therefore it must be true that the North American records came from fewer than 671 hospitals.  If we weight this, Surgisphere allegedly had feeds to 671 * .659 = 442 US hospitals.

    Problem?  There are over 12,000 hospitals in the US, Canada and Mexico.  442/12000 = 0.036 What are the chances that 94.5% of all North American patients were clustered in exactly the 3.6% of hospitals Surgisphere claims to have feeds from?

    Exhibit C:  Surgisphere is a brand new company, barely over a year old.

    Problem?  Establishing a data feed to any one hospital is a lengthy affair requiring review boards, ethics approvals, and constant auditing to assure compliance.  This means surgisphere has been averaging roughly two complete hospital signups per day.  This is beyond the realm of likely.  Queried Australian hospitals deny having any sort of feeds to Surgisphere.

    Conclusion:  There is very strong evidence of fraud here.  Not simple Db errors.

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  • Fri, May 29, 2020 - 9:54am

    #6
    LabCat

    LabCat

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    WHO?

    Speaking of science, what's the deal with the WHO saying today that "healthy" people don't have to wear masks?

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  • Fri, May 29, 2020 - 10:09am

    #7
    Mohammed Mast

    Mohammed Mast

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    Serious Question

    Can "garbage science" be called science at all?

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  • Fri, May 29, 2020 - 10:15am

    #8
    Dutch Boomer

    Dutch Boomer

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    CQ

    HA

    Just received my 100 pills CQ 250 mg I bought at

    https://www.aliexpress.com/item/4000908601211.html?spm=a2g0s.9042311.0.0.3b394c4dvDdWeX

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  • Fri, May 29, 2020 - 10:15am

    #9
    Chris Martenson

    Chris Martenson

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    Exhibit D:

    Exhibit D:

    About That Big HCQ Study...

    — Questions arise over inconsistencies in data; confounders may impact future COVID-19 treatments

    by Molly Walker, Associate Editor, MedPage Today May 26, 2020

    As more outside experts have had a chance to review the huge observational study released last week on the safety and efficacy of hydroxychloroquine (HCQ) and chloroquine for COVID-19, whispers that something was amiss have turned into a loud buzz.

    The analysis, published on Friday in The Lancet, looked at nearly 100,000 COVID-19 patients including about 15,000 treated with the antimalarials, either with or without an antibiotic. HCQ was associated with nearly doubled risk of death in the hospital and about 20-fold higher rates of ventricular arrhythmias, the investigators reported.

    Sapan Desai, MD, PhD, one of the Lancet authors and founder of Surgisphere Corp., a physician-led public service organization in Chicago that provided much of the data for the analysis, told MedPage Today there were multiple reasons for the discrepancy between the data in the study and that in the COVID Tracking Project.

    "There is often a delay before public health reporting catches up to data at the hospital level," he said. Desai also pointed to "issues with data capture at the public health level from various hospitals that could lead to inaccuracies or delays in public reporting."

    Question from the prosecutor:  "Mr. Desai, as a reminder you are under oath.  Is it seriously your contention that doctors filling out completed patient forms happens at a faster rate than simply reporting the presence of a Covid-19 patient to health authorities?"

    LOL

    What an obvious lie.  Dude.  Try harder next time.

     

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  • Fri, May 29, 2020 - 10:18am

    #10
    Mohammed Mast

    Mohammed Mast

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    Chloroquine Phosphate

    I ordered HCQ, Azithromycin, and Chloroquine Phosphate from River Pharmacy way back in March. Modi shut down India just after my order so it didn't get shipped.

    They cannot get HCQ out of India but for some reason they can get Chloroquine Phosphate. It will take about a month. Hopefully that is.

    Hat tip to drbrucedale

    riverpharmacy.ca

    You did not get this information from me or PP . I do not know anything about the above post. I must have been hacked.

    Since I don't know anything about this or how it got here  if anyone (Dr. types, medical, scientists etc.)  would care to provide any info (just to further the conversation and not medical advice) it would be appreciated. Please do not tell my big brother, he will take away my privileges and I will be grounded

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  • Fri, May 29, 2020 - 10:26am

    #11
    paleodoctor

    paleodoctor

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    Hydroxychloroquine good news

    medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.05.02.20080036v1.full.pdf

    ZINC was used in this study

     

     

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  • Fri, May 29, 2020 - 10:27am

    Dutch Boomer

    Dutch Boomer

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    riverpharmacy

    I ordered at riverpharmacy, but nothing arrived. After 2 months they promissed to refund but until now still waiting money....

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  • Fri, May 29, 2020 - 10:32am

    #13
    Kat43

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    Surgisphere's response on its website

    https://surgisphere.com/2020/05/25/lancet-paper/

     

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  • Fri, May 29, 2020 - 10:36am

    #14
    Kat43

    Kat43

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    Head of NIH bioethics and human experimentation is Fauci's wife.

    Christine Grady.  Amazing Polly has a recent video blog about the connections.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jkYen0g4TRU

    No direct connection between Grady and Bill Gates that she could find, but when you're sleeping with the intermediate, a direct connection isn't needed.

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  • Fri, May 29, 2020 - 10:48am

    #15
    Chris Martenson

    Chris Martenson

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    Exhibit E:

    Exhibit E: It is quite literally impossible for Surgisphere to have collected the data from Australia that they claim.

    (Source)

    As a co-conspirator, The Lancet is also on trial here.  After all, they were responsible for reviewing and publishing the "study."

    After being faced with such insurmountable evidence of at the very least the Australian data being complete garbage, The Lancet did issue this correction today:

    Problem? They refer to amending/correcting the first paragraph of the results section based on the 'fact' that one Asian hospital was incorrectly placed in the Australian column.

    Here's that original 1st paragraph:

    LOL

    They dropped ~90% of Australian patients (from 609 to 63) and then said nothing else needs amending.

    Australia was the one place that 100% denied sending any data along so - guess what? - that was the one "correction" they made.

    Circumstantial evidence is indeed evidence, that's why it's allowed in court.

     

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  • Fri, May 29, 2020 - 10:49am

    #16

    Jim H

    Status: Bronze Member

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    Posts: 1161

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    About that 10% death rate from ventricular tachycardia in the Lancet study....

    The biggest lie brought forward in the Lancet paper is the idea that HCQ treatment brings about this meaty, ~ 10% death rate due to cardiac side effects.  Didier Raoult addresses this directly in the attached interview, and I have transcribed his statements from the subtitles for easy reading, i.e. the translation from French is not my own.  Here though is the truth as per Didier, realizing that he has lived this pandemic on the front lines, saving lives and treating over 3000 patients at his hospital;

    "If someone publishes a stupidity in a journal to make me forget what we have done here for two and a half months, I will turn crazy.  I am not going to change my mind because someone who has not treated any patients tells us how it (HCQ) works.  We have seen patients, we now how it works and they can't make me believe this nonsense.  The only thing that bothers me is that people are skeptical between the data they have received from people who got their information from secondary sources and the data we actually have.  I assure you that it is true and you can take a look at the medical records here and the mortality rate.  In total we had 36 people that died in this hospital and we have carefully examined the cause of their death and no one has died from ventricular tachycardia.  How come in our hospital no one has died from ventricular tachycardia but this (The Lancet) study says 10%?  It's impossible.  Who's wrong, people who have not examined patients or the ones who have carefully examined these patients?  That's ridiculous.

    jsource:   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r3iwYcgcaxk

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  • Fri, May 29, 2020 - 10:55am

    #17
    paleodoctor

    paleodoctor

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    Hydroxychloroquine trial at McGill University

    DR Emily McDonald: 1000 enrolled patients,no cardiac arrythmia,younger patients with no chronic diseases,double blind,clinical trial will continue

    ledevoir.com/societe/science/579667/mcgill-poursuit-son-essai-clinique-sur-l-efficacite-de-l-hydroxychloroquine

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  • Fri, May 29, 2020 - 10:59am

    westcoastjan

    westcoastjan

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    More to build the evidence case against Surgisphere

    So I did a bit of poking around to learn more about Surgisphere and the people who work there. This is their 'Science Editor', further described on her YouTube channel and Instagram - all of which are tremendously confidence inspiring (cue sarcasm). She definitely has the horror part down pat...

    She wrote several posts for the company in March extolling the virtues of Surgisphere's Covid-19 Response Centre and Support Tools and Why Access to Real Time Data is Critical in which there is a whole lot of fluffy pep talk aka marketing BS and a complete absence of data to back up any of that talk. In the first link she makes this completely unsubstantiated claim (bold my emphasis):

    A third challenge facing physicians is knowing how serious a confirmed case of COVID-19 is. Even suspected cases can be hard to classify and treat accordingly based solely on the symptoms that are initially present. This triage support tool, like the others, relies on real time data and machine learning to offer a classification of Routine, Urgent, or Critical. The overall accuracy is 95.5%, and the tool correctly classifies 100% of patients who are critical and require immediate attention.

    No data presented to back that claim up. I guess we just have to take the word of a sci-fi writer and illustrator who fancy's herself as a science editor. No doubt her valued contribution to the posts are the illustrations.

    This raises one of those ethical questions for me: how many people really know who they are working for, and to what they are contributing? Not knowing goes to culpability on some level, if only as an enabler. It's like Chris has said, if your paycheck depends on not making waves, then that is likely the way it will be. Multiply people like this woman by the millions and millions of people, and especially those who work for outfits like the B&M Gates Foundation, and we know exactly how this mess came to be.

    It also tells me there is a way to help us get out of the mess. But it will take all those millions of people to stand up and do the right thing. I won't bet the farm on that happening though...

    Jan

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  • Fri, May 29, 2020 - 11:04am

    #19
    paleodoctor

    paleodoctor

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    Joined: Aug 23 2015

    Posts: 4

    Drug interaction hydroxychloroquine-metformin

    biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.03.31.018556v1

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  • Fri, May 29, 2020 - 11:27am

    #20
    jerryr

    jerryr

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    Could this really be the first time?

    This is making me wonder about some other "alternative" remedies that have been dismissed by the US medical profession and mass media, sometimes with studies claiming to disprove hopeful early signs of effectiveness.

    Megadose Vitamin C? Remember the controversy about Dr. Linus Pauling?

    Laetrile (apricot pits) for cancer, popular in the 1960's and 1970's, now banned by the FDA?

    Bleach?? Chlorine dioxide is chemically a member of the bleach family. It's been marketed as a supplement known as "MMS" (Miracle Mineral Solution) and attacked by the FDA as hazardous and worthless. 

    But, here's Andreas Kalcker claiming that a pilot study in Ecuador, claiming that 97% of >100 patients had remission of severe coronavirus symptoms within 4 days. This compares very favorably to Raoult's claim of 91.7% positive clinical outcome and viral clearance within 10 days in his 1061 patients treated with HCQ+AZT.

    Kalcker also talks about the very small doses of chlorine dioxide used in the study, compared to the LD50. In comparison to HCQ or even tylenol, the treatment seems to have a very safe therapeutic index ratio.

    Could this possibly be true? Everyone mocked Trump about his "bleach" comments, so is he going to get the last laugh?? (Actually I think Trump was talking about lysol.)

    https://lbry.tv/@Kalcker:7/100-Recovered-Aememi-1:7

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  • Fri, May 29, 2020 - 11:42am

    #21
    MQ

    MQ

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    Surgisphere--follow the money...

    Who are their backers? Or did they just decide to make some side money? Who paid for the study? Who benefits--besides Gilead? Why does it seem that old(er) people are getting the shaft? Or is that really the case or just another morsel of partial information we've been fed? This cast of players is beginning to resemble 'War and Peace'; I need not only a list of those involved, but a character tree. I can't believe this lot are cohesive--but who is playing whom in the mess? And how many who(s) and whom(s) are there? I keep thinking that we shouldn't attribute to malevolence that which can be explained  by greed and stupidity, but I don't think that is always true.

    Enquiring minds want to know... Maybe the enquiring minds need to become the inquiring minds?? But what authority can we trust to make the inquiry?

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  • Fri, May 29, 2020 - 11:55am

    #22

    Jim H

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    More from Surgisphere - Here is Sapan Desai telling us their AI does in fact make-up data. Amazing stuff

    There are a few videos on Youtube from Surgisphere.  One of them is Sapan Desai talking about his, "next generation informatics system".  Artificial intelligence (AI) and machine learning (ML) are indeed powerful tools that are at the forefront of computing... something I well understand from the semiconductor hardware side of the table.. but I have to say my ears really perked up when I heard Desai say the portion of the sentence in bold below, which I transcribed from the linked video;

    "We've created a next generation informatics system that uses a lot of automated data acquisition, we're able to recover missing values from the source, and using artificial intelligence, machine learning, and natural language processing, we've created what is today the worlds most complete, comprehensive, and accurate health care data set".

    source:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=au73eCxtZp0

    The chart that was being shown during this statement is presented herein.  This guy can really fling the buzz words around.. but based on all the breaking news around this company and the Lancet paper they were behind, you really have to question much of what is said in the transcribed statement, which BTW dates back to Mid-March.  For instance, we have seen that there are many hurdles to getting data from hospitals.. pesky ethics boards and such.. hence the concept of, "automated data acquisition" hardly seems possible.  It also sounds like they are basically letting the computer make up at least some of the data and hiding this behind lofty terms like AI and ML.  I will be interested in Chris' take here...

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  • Fri, May 29, 2020 - 12:28pm

    Susan7

    Susan7

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    Pepe Escobar?

    no thanks, Jan. I don’t think A full-fledged eco-socialist Marxist revolution would bring anything but more death and misery. Hasn’t Marxism produced enough of that already?

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  • Fri, May 29, 2020 - 12:41pm

    #24

    gallantfarms

    Status: Member

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    Yet Another Promising Protocol Suppressed:

    Yet another life-saving protocol is being ignored & suppressed:

    According to the article, efforts by Dr. Pierre Kory — medical director at the Trauma & Life Support Center and a faculty member in the Division of Allergy, Pulmonary and Critical Care Medicine in the Department of Medicine at the University of Wisconsin School of Medicine and Public Health — to share the Front Line COVID-19 Critical Care Working Group's4 (FLCCC) successes with other health care professionals have so far come to naught.

    Kory was one of five doctors participating in a May 6, 2020, roundtable discussion5 on COVID-19 with ranking senate committee member Gary Peters, D-Mich. In his testimony, Kory states, in part:6

    "I want to start by saying that I am part of a group of physicians which include several of the most highly published and well-known critical care experts in the country and world (Drs. Paul Marik, Umberto Meduri, Joseph Varon and José Iglesias). In response to the COVID crisis we formed the Front-Line Critical Care Working group …

    Members of our group have now treated in excess of 100 hospitalized patients with our treatment protocol. Nearly all survived. The two that died were in their 80s and had advanced chronic medical conditions.

    None of the patients have had long stays on the ventilator nor become ventilator dependent. The patients generally have a short hospital stay and are discharged in good health …

    Our protocol has been out over four weeks. It is not unique, in fact, we are not alone in what we propose or have been trying … In fact, we are seeing an increasing number of similar protocols with nearly identical therapeutics come out from various institutions and countries, including the Italian guidelines, Chinese guidelines, Yale protocol, Montefiore protocol and others.

    We are doctors, trained to diagnose and treat illness, we are experts in our field with decades of experience and hundreds of publications … We have clearly devised an effective treatment for use, prior to the publication of randomized controlled trials.

    Those trials are critical for sure, as they will help us further refine and/or perfect our treatment doses, durations, and indications, but waiting for the perfect is and will be the enemy of the good, which we are already achieving … We just want to save lives, and we know how to do it."

    The MATH+ protocol7 calls for the use of three medicines, all of which need to be started within six hours of hospital admission:

    • Intravenous methylprednisolone, to suppress the immune system and prevent organ damage from cytokine storms — For mild hypoxia, 40 milligrams (mg) daily until off oxygen; moderate to severe illness, 80 mg bolus followed by 20 mg per day for seven days. On Day 8, switch to oral prednisone and taper down over the next six days.
    • Intravenous ascorbic acid (vitamin C), to control inflammation and prevent the development of leaky blood vessels in the lungs — 3 grams/100 ml every six hours for up to seven days.
    • Subcutaneous heparin (enoxaparin), to thin the blood and prevent blood clots — For mild to moderate illness, 40 mg to 60 mg daily until discharged.

    Optional additions include thiamine, zinc and vitamin D. In addition to these medications, the protocol calls for high-flow nasal oxygen to avoid mechanical ventilation, "which itself damages the lungs and is associated with a mortality rate approaching nearly 90% in some centers," Kory notes.8

    Together, this approach addresses the three core pathological processes seen in COVID-19, namely hyperinflammation, hypercoagulability of the blood, and hypoxia (shortness of breath due to low oxygenation).

    https://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2020/05/29/dr-paul-marik-critical-care.aspx?cid_source=dnl&cid_medium=email&cid_content=art1HL&cid=20200529Z1&et_cid=DM547465&et_rid=882299015

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  • Fri, May 29, 2020 - 1:08pm

    #25
    arpoador

    arpoador

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    Curves and more curves

    Dr. Martenson,
    Have you seen this report?
    https://www.santafe.edu/news-center/news/new-model-predicts-peaks-covid-19-pandemic
    This might better explain the early numbers coming out of China than your earlier accusation of malicious manipulation of data. I suspect if China were still manipulating its numbers, we'd know that from reports of known people becoming infected, or of infections coming from China (as happened with Iran).
    I'm sure their numbers are way lower than the real thing. Probably not so much so as Russia, and certainly not so much so as Brazil (where I am now, and where inadequate testing means a possible error of 7x(!) , and perhaps not even as much so as in the US today.
    But this new mathematics may be a better explanation than the earlier speculations.

     

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  • Fri, May 29, 2020 - 1:34pm

    #26
    dryam2000

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    For those who are still somehow confused about the WHO

    Seriously, you can’t make this up.

    The WHO is now recommending for healthy people that they only wear a face mask when caring for known CV-19 patients.  IMO, the WHO isn’t simply incompetent.  The WHO is instead an extremely corrupt organization that elected to side with China, and it’s main purpose now is to be the primary propaganda mouthpiece for China.  They are not just corrupt, but they are downright evil.

    MSN article

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  • Fri, May 29, 2020 - 1:37pm

    Hladini

    Hladini

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    Mohammed Mast

    It's called dog shit.

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  • Fri, May 29, 2020 - 2:11pm

    #28

    Pipyman

    Status: Member

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    Repeat after me...

    MMR does not cause Autism!

     

    and

     

    The original MMR shot did not cause aseptic

    meningitis! Oh wait.....

     

    https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/10707922/

     

    I know the vaccine debate is a hot button one, and I don’t care what you believe to be true. Just don’t tell me I’m a nut job for having serious concerns about the “safe and effective” meme. Especially when it involves 8 week olds.

     

    Trust has gone, and, we’ll all pay the price...

     

     

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  • Fri, May 29, 2020 - 2:36pm

    Pipyman

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    Hmmmm

    In the UK it is utterly ridiculous. One way systems everywhere, Perspex everywhere and still, less than 1% wearing a mask.

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  • Fri, May 29, 2020 - 2:52pm

    #30

    Jim H

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    Dr. James Todaro's new long form piece entitled, "A study out of thin air"

    https://www.medicineuncensored.com/a-study-out-of-thin-air

    A Study Out of Thin Air

    by James M Todaro, MD (Columbia MD, @JamesTodaroMD)

    May 29, 2020

    Misinformation is bad. Misinformation in medicine is worse. Misinformation from a prestigious medical journal is the worst.  Herein is a detailed look at the controversial Lancet study that resulted in the World Health Organization ending worldwide clinical trials on hydroxychloroquine in order to focus on patented therapeutics....

    Read the rest at James' website.

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  • Fri, May 29, 2020 - 3:39pm

    #31

    Snydeman

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    This thread, right here.

    Is another reason why I love Peak Prosperity. This is like watching an episode of "Lt. Joe Kenda, Homicide Hunter" unfold in real-time, as the collective brain trust eviscerates shoddy science. =)

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  • Fri, May 29, 2020 - 4:15pm

    nyhetersverige

    nyhetersverige

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    nyhetersverige said:

    Don't agree on the assessments of accurate reporting. Do believe the good old Chinese zapped the numbers to begin with, but also know what efforts they've put in to stop the spread and help other countries. Do not put much credence in Russia fudging stats - that horse is old and worn out. Cheers.

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  • Fri, May 29, 2020 - 4:19pm

    nyhetersverige

    nyhetersverige

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    nyhetersverige said:

    What's most disconcerting is who, like veritable dominoes, a number of governments and organisations reacted as if on cue. That's just despicable.

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  • Fri, May 29, 2020 - 4:32pm

    nordicjack

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    RE Exhibit D

    My thought exactly.  Its not that numbers were not so much in disagreement.  In fact they were in too much agreement.   The hospital count does not correspond with the possible hospitals for the counts in the system.  The only way to get those counts is to use one fictitiously stolen from those figures.     And I agree, there is a lag in the reporting in which they(authors) admit. But the numbers agree with disposition of completed case work by reporting attending MDs at the time of authoring.. accounting for no lag in reporting time between case count.. history, presentation, treatment, and resolution recording.. especially considering each hospitalization is greater than  2.5 weeks on average.  Opps.. cant even fake the numbers correctly.

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  • Fri, May 29, 2020 - 4:38pm

    nyhetersverige

    nyhetersverige

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    nyhetersverige said:

    Surgi wrote a cryptic response.

    Follow up on our Lancet paper

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  • Fri, May 29, 2020 - 6:20pm

    #36
    gamma1

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    highly unfortunate study

    this has to be one of the most dismaying videos I have seen in the past 20 years. to think that somebody would work to publish a study with such flawed methods, and to have that result then quickly blasted all over the world media, with the attendant consequence, is just sad beyond belief.

     

    thanks Chris  (and thanks  'akancide_is_real' whoever you are) for shining a light on this

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  • Fri, May 29, 2020 - 7:13pm

    #37
    nordicjack

    nordicjack

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    Its really a very very deep conspiracy among most medical organizations

    We are all familiar with Dr Raoult's study.   They easy trashed that as a garbage study.. to discount that work - And with no real explanation of what was wrong with it// Except they "believe" that the inclusion criteria and triaging of patients in regards to ensure patient safety was inadequate/??  what that is subjective not objective.   And I would like to know how many patients who received the drugs had adverse events/. its looks like they did much better than those who did not...// So when these organizations put their "sh^&^ on the line..  and give no exacting answer.. they are part  of the conspiracy..  I would love to interview these chumps as a journalist.. I would eat them alive , I dont understand where real journalism exists today..

     

    In a statement last week, the International Society of Antimicrobial Chemotherapy (ISAC) said the study in question did not meet its standard—but did not go into many details as to why.

    You know why they didn't go into detail.. Because its not about the study .., its about the politics..

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  • Fri, May 29, 2020 - 7:27pm

    Quercus bicolor

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    filling in missing values with AI

    In applications that involve forecasting the future (meteorology for instance),  a separate machine learning model is sometimes to predict the missing values in the historical data set  that contains all sorts of variables include the one we are trying to predict.  The historical data set, now consisting of some real observations and some "simulated" observations (i.e. guesses) can now be used to train a model to predict the future values of variables we are trying to forecast.  This forecast can be more accurate than one generated by simply throwing out data from times with missing observations.  This can be true even if the attempts to fill in the missing data are not very accurate - as they usually are.

    But to do this in a retrospective medical outcomes study where the most important outcome is death?  And to base real-world decisions on the results?  That sounds very risky to me - and wide open to manipulation.

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  • Fri, May 29, 2020 - 9:29pm

    davefairtex

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    filling in missing values with AI

    QB-

    The historical data set, now consisting of some real observations and some "simulated" observations (i.e. guesses) can now be used to train a model to predict the future values of variables we are trying to forecast.

    Oh I get it!  Here's my guess as to how that works.  Let's say you have a bunch of patient records that are missing whether the patient is a smoker or not.   You have a bunch of patient records that do have this filled in, as well as a lot of "other information."

    You train up a model that can predict, from the "other information", whether or not the patient is a smoker.  You test it against these complete record-patients to make sure this model (mostly) works.

    Then you execute the smoker/non-smoker model against the records with the missing "smoker/non-smoker" entries.  You come up with your guesses, and fill in the blanks.  Presto - you now have records with patient smoking status "correctly" filled in.

    And - mostly it will be right.  More right than wrong anyway.  Hopefully.  Depending on how representative your training set is of the entire global patient population.  [That last one: the critical assumption.]

    Rinse, repeat, for every missing column for every patient record.

    I do not think they are being clear with their customers (or us) as to what they are actually doing, however.

    They have patchy, incomplete data where they have "filled in the empty bits" using a collection of AI models they've trained up, which "hopefully" have been trained using representative global data.  How many empty bits have been filled up by AI?  How many are authentic records?  What were the training sets?  We don't know.  And they aren't telling us.

    Here's how this goes wrong:  Let's say you train up your "smoker/non-smoker" model on just US patient data, with complete records from a few select hospitals in the US.  Then you attempt to "fill in the smoker/non-smoker blanks" for people in Africa/Europe/Asia - with different smoking prevalence, different diet, different climate, different average BMI, different local pollution, and who knows what other confounding factors - your model may well just spit out errors that you will never detect.  That's because your model has been trained to detect "meaningful smoker indicators" in one population that simply do not generalize globally.

    The models will never tell you this.  They will happily spit out wrong answers from now until the sun goes cold.

    Models are only as good as their training set.

    Do we get to see the training sets on which the models were trained?  No.  Do we even know how many data items were "filled in?"  No.  "It's proprietary."

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  • Fri, May 29, 2020 - 10:52pm

    richcabot

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    Need a lawyer

    That doesn't explain them having data on 94% of US patients or not having 4 Australian hospitals that add up to the number of cases they had from Australia.  It's fraud, pure and simple.  Some enterprising lawyer representing the family of a patient that died after his physician refused to prescribe HCQ based on having read the Lancet paper should sue Surgisphere, the authors and the Lancet.  Civil suits are entitled to discovery.  If it doesn't end up in the court of a bought and paid for judge it would make a great trial.

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  • Fri, May 29, 2020 - 11:11pm

    Mpup

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    Mpup said:

    In present times, models and polls are like rear ends.  Everbody has one, they all stink, and the "media"  savors the acrid stench.   Money talks, truth and trust walks.

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  • Fri, May 29, 2020 - 11:18pm

    #42
    nordicjack

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    What would you do? Maybe time for a poll

    Its really easy to look at the people who do the wrong things,  illegal , unethical and otherwise.   However, if you had the power, what would you do? its easy to think , "Oh, Id do the right thing for sure."  I am one of those, that nothing will make do otherwise, but , I think i am far from majority on this.

    So the question is posed,   Lets say you are tedros, and the powers that be come to you and say look at all this data , "we have to stop the HCQ treatment - its really harmful - we are being reckless.  There is no real data.  We need to tell people.." ( tedros - "Maybe we should do some official studies? ) "No, we don't need that.  We have evidence that this "drug" will do a better job and we can make a lot of money.. I will get you some.. !"   What do you do?       Tedros - "Well maybe it(HCQ) is reckless. All these people don't need some repurposed drugs - we really dont have good studies; it could be dangerous.. sure.. ok.. lets do some research on the new (money) stuff."   And find something new for a new problem.   ( maybe you try to convince yourself what is right )   - what is right by other people in position of influence about your job , your accolades..   Guess what, no problem,  "I will play ball - I cant fight them all anyway, maybe they know better, might as well buy my kid a BMW and walk him into the best universities..   I am not really gonna worry about the small details.."  ( it might be pretty simple for most to think they are doing the best or they need to play ball with others - politics 101 at the office )  - "this is how I got where I am."

    Seems its not hard for "human" psychology to take over - and trick a person into doing really really wrong stuff.   You really need to stay objective and open.  I know Chris speaks about it a bit.  You have to listen, you have to stay objective and remain unbiased and willing to accept something other than what you expect.  You have to be able to change and be adaptable.  ( but you have to have a set of principles, values, beliefs, and constitutions that guide you )

    I think in your mind - it would not be a far reach to justify doing things you think are best - because others tell you they are best.   Its very hard to know yourself and know you are sure , while being certain that you are acting in the interest of all.  ( even when that is really your job ) Bottom line,  if  you are making decisions based on what others tell you and not what you know and expect, you are likely doing it wrong.

    Well, I am sure some of the well-meaning do-gooders could get lost here in this logic even if they were well-intentioned.

    Lets take this question one step beyond motivation of pleasing those that give you power.  and the money that comes from that.  But perhaps instead of reward based motivation for actions,  you are threatened.  Now what?/ threatened to be removed from your position?  your career trashed?   Or perhaps your own safety or the safety of your own family?  Now what?

    What would you do?

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  • Fri, May 29, 2020 - 11:22pm

    thatchmo

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    Lawyer up?

    I'm guessing Surgishpere is pretty small fry- 6 employees?  But sue them, and I'd wager Big Pharma would step in and have their legal teams ensure the case never came to trial- you know, rule of law, justice, and all those fantasies....Aloha, Steve.

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  • Fri, May 29, 2020 - 11:35pm

    stevedaly

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    AI Spread

    How does AI fill in missing data?  If you have a spread of data along a sloped line, what is the bias that AI would bring to calculating the "infill" points Surgisphere needs?  This Lancet retrospective survey shows much tighter variation in data spread of the 23 factors than what appears in ordinary matching for data sets this small  according to "Arkanicide".  Does the AI program used here accept infill points and reject outliers?  Is it a standard AI program accepted as a research norm?  Uh, no.   It was a proprietary program created by Surgisphere and not peer reviewed by anybody!

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  • Fri, May 29, 2020 - 11:46pm

    nordicjack

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    Yeah, AI for reasearch studies is really an Oxymoron

    Filling missing data  with AI is a joke for real research and data analysis.    You must really program that AI with a basic set of logic to build off of.. It can be biased and manipulated.  AI for missing data, just doesn't work in real world studies.  It is an interesting exercise in modeling..  for entertainment value.  However, it would have exceptional value if you actually wanted to game a study, if you were lucky enough to get stupid people to think your study( and data ) was legit.

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  • Sat, May 30, 2020 - 4:33am

    #46

    Oliveoilguy

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    When science becomes a cult

    https://www.americanthinker.com/articles/2020/05/when_science_becomes_a_cult.html

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  • Sat, May 30, 2020 - 5:23am

    Mysterymet

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    Total BS study and lies about AI and machine learning.

    I have been working with an AI system for almost 2 years (industrial not medical data) and I can tell you that if these people are claiming they wrote the code, trained the AI and got actionable data they’d be willing to state their literal lives upon in only a few months it is definitely time to waive the BS flag! Also, from 96000 individual cases to still over 3000 similar cases using 23 factors  with those BS st dev and mean values is a total fabrication. I have a couple hundred thousand “cases” in my data and being industrial data it is designed to be similar because we are making  standardized products, unlike people. I cannot put in more than a handful of factors before my data sets get trimmed down to essentially meaningless numbers of “cases.
    also, it is extremely easy to introduce accidental bias and even easier when you want to do it on purpose, which is what I suspect happened in this case. I enjoy working with my AI system and it is extremely helpful in going through large amounts of  information, however, all results from the system should first pass “the smell test” before you act upon them.

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  • Sat, May 30, 2020 - 5:50am

    #48
    MQ

    MQ

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    for food production for those with no outdoor space

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5-ocJgClo4I

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  • Sat, May 30, 2020 - 6:11am

    Chris Martenson

    Chris Martenson

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    Regarding Surgisphere and AI

    How does AI fill in missing data?  If you have a spread of data along a sloped line, what is the bias that AI would bring to calculating the "infill" points Surgisphere needs?  This Lancet retrospective survey shows much tighter variation in data spread of the 23 factors than what appears in ordinary matching for data sets this small  according to "Arkanicide".  Does the AI program used here accept infill points and reject outliers?  Is it a standard AI program accepted as a research norm?  Uh, no.   It was a proprietary program created by Surgisphere and not peer reviewed by anybody!

    Let's go one step further.  How many people on Surgisphere's 6 person squad are identified on LinkedIn as having any big data or AI background?

    Zero.

    You've got the main MD Desai, then a business development dude, a couple of "science editors" which I presume means "marketing copywriters," a VP or marketing & sales, and a general mgr.  That's the team.

    So who actually wrote all this proprietary AI code? Desai the cardiologist?

    I'm guessing it was outsourced to India or something.  Since this is a poorly funded start-up it was probably done on the cheap.

    You know why they are resisting every effort to peer in their black box?  Probably because it is mostly an empty void.  Heck, might even be excel spreadsheets with some half-fancy macros.

    Seriously - where did this world-class AI program come from?  That's a legit question.

     

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  • Sat, May 30, 2020 - 6:19am

    Quercus bicolor

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    It's even worse than that Dave

    You can only use complete patient records in your training data set.  So either you have to throw out all patient records with at least one missing value or start throwing out the variables with the most missing values especially if they tend to be missing for patients for which most other variables are good.  Then you have to reserve part of your training data set for testing (verification) of your model as you iterate it during training.  Then you have to repeat for each variable that has missing values.  And you have the problem of representativeness - if most cases of a missing value tend to be from a specific group - i.e. missing smoker/nonsmoker records are mostly from a specific continent, gender, race, age, etc. or combination of two of those, and there aren't a lot of complete records from that group, your model will not be very good.

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  • Sat, May 30, 2020 - 6:37am

    davefairtex

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    agree with you both

    QB-

    Agree with your analysis, especially the bit about "representative-ness."  For instance, when training up my candle models, I first used all the candle prints from all 1500 items in SPX, smallcap, and midcap as training data.  Problem is, on huge moves (say, during a crash), all the candles of all the items looked identical on those big days, so I'd get (say) 1500 pretty much identical takuri line candles all with the same pattern right at the low, which would skew the training result way too much.  I ended up having to bucket by day, and then pick (at most) 20 samples at random from that day.  So - representativeness is exactly right.

    takeaway: you have to understand your data, play with it for a while, and even then it's a tough problem.

    That brings me to 2:

    Chris-  There were no AI software engineers on the team.

    That's a fail too.  Engineer needs to understand what the data really means, else the result won't be right.

    I'd add 3: importing 671 sets of hospital data (presumably, each in its own format) is ... a quagmire.  It would take a team of people months and months to get this right.  Especially reducing the text fields in 10 different languages to something resembling coherence.  Months and months.  A team.  And they have 6 people.

    The more we all poke at this, the more pathetic it looks.

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  • Sat, May 30, 2020 - 7:47am

    nordicjack

    nordicjack

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    Re; Surgisphere and AI

    In the CPA world, we would call this a pass-through company.  It doesn't really exist.  It's just a circle jerk.   Surgisphere is nothing more than the dr who authored this study under the guise of looking like his study is genuine while trying to escape the truth about his fraudulent data/   Basically he cannot say we got our data from blah blah.. he himself is the data company.. Nothing less.   ( AND this should constitute a HUGE CONFLICT OF INTEREST )   -----  STUDY FAIL.  ( why would a cardiologist or researcher own a data company? )   Marketing research companies.. sure.  Insurance companies, sure..   researchers , doctors ( big no..no.. )

    Why would anyone use AI information to treat a patient?  aren't we dealing with someone's life here?  We are not serving search results or feeding someone an advertisement.. What I feel is, this study could be defined more as a model..

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  • Sat, May 30, 2020 - 8:28am

    JWhite

    JWhite

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    Nordic Jack’s Poll re: Question of Ethics

    I know what I would do. Your question of ‘What would you do?’ when confronted with an ethical dilemma which could affect one’s future, may apply to those who have not sworn to follow a code of ethics for their profession. But in Medicine, as in Law and Accounting (in Western society), people in these fields normally take an oath when they join the profession, to always follow the ethical guidelines set out for their profession, which is then overseen by a governing body. Part of ‘doing the right thing’ involves making oneself aware of all the information, and being open to considering new information as it arises, regarding an issue, and then weighing this against the various standards which apply to their profession.

    In Medicine, Law and Accounting, there is no room for corruption, fraud or other behaviour which does not uphold the highest level of ethics. There is no justification for it, and no situation under which it is acceptable. Otherwise we do not have a civilized society. This value system doesn’t hold in all countries in the world, but it does in Western countries, and there are usually stiff penalties for unethical behaviour.

    This is one reason why administrators who are in a position to set standards and influence the members of these professions, should themselves have sworn to such oaths. If they are not members of the profession and/or their current position is now purely of a political nature, then it may not be appropriate for them to be in such a position of influence.

    If people agree to walk down that path where fraud, corruption, and negligence are acceptable in order to keep one’s job, be promoted, or meet some other goal, then our society turns into one that resembles some countries on the other side of the world, where nothing happens without a bribe, and this is acceptable and part of the way things work.

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  • Sat, May 30, 2020 - 8:31am

    000

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    The Epstein Effect?

    What if you're a 14 yr old girl hired to massage an old rich guy who then wants more than a massage?

    What if you're a politician (a president) when three sailors are killed in a terrorist attack? What do you do?

    Distract, delay, delude, play golf, go along to get along?

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  • Sat, May 30, 2020 - 9:53am

    taz1999

    taz1999

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    anti government bias

    I got a lot of it; and all the examples just rail my meter.  So all the examples of govt. halting treatments leads me to believe the treatments are both safe and effective.  If easy treatments were unsafe and/or ineffective the evidence would show and fraud studies would not have to be generated.  Small unheard of company generates huge study leading huge manager decisions.  Air America without the drugs... Oh wait it is about drugs.

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  • Sat, May 30, 2020 - 10:16am

    #56
    skipr

    skipr

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    AI etc

    My experience with AI algorithms shows me that they work fine with mildly nonlinear problems, but when you get into heavily nonlinear ones an expert's intuition always wins.  Do you really think AI will "think up" more advanced AI algorithms?  If you do, you have been watching too many Star Wars movies.

    Trump's war with Twitter's fact checking is the latest version of book burning.  "The Buck Stops Here" has become "The Buck Stops Over There in China, Iran, Venezuela, etc etc"

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  • Sat, May 30, 2020 - 10:22am

    #57

    Jim H

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    Another reason to call BS on Surgisphere - they clearly have an agenda.

    Yesterday Surgisphere posted a letter on their website responding to criticism of their Lancet study.

    https://surgisphere.com/2020/05/29/response-to-widespread-reaction-to-recent-lancet-article-on-hydroxychloroquine/

    ...In so doing, we join agencies including the U.S. Food and Drug Administration, as well as several other observational studies reported in the NEJMJAMA and the BMJ, each of which have pointed to either no benefit of the drug regimens using hydroxychloroquine or chloroquine or even a signal of potential harm (also see this paper). The Brazilian CloroCovid-19 Study on chloroquine diphosphate was recently stopped in Brazil due to the noted safety hazards associated with this drug.

    Wow.. they really tipped their hand by even mentioning the Brazil study.  I profiled and critiqued this study when it first came out - the high dose arm of the study, which did in fact kill patients, was so high as to be intentionally designed to fail.  Others have said it was tantamount to malpractice.  For a Cardiologist like Desai to reference this ultra high dose Choroquine (not hydroxychloroquine) study without pointing out the obvious fact that it is in no way representative of the way the rest of the world is using HCQ shows that he is not pursuing sincere science.  He is instead, knowingly pursuing a false, anti-HCQ narrative.  Here is what I wrote at the time;

    https://www.peakprosperity.com/forum-topic/hydroxychloroquine-vs-the-globalist-deep-state/page/9/#post-558716

    Dr. Zelenko dosing of hydroxychloroquine;  200mg x2 daily = 400 mg/day, usually for five days.

    Brazil study low dose of chloroquine phosphate;  450 mg x2 daily = 900 mg/day, five days

    Brazil study high dose where people died;  600 mg x2 daily = 1200 mg/day for 10 days!!!!  OMG, images of the AZ fish tank cleaner death pop into our heads!

    Knowing what we know, that this drug has a long half life, and that a, “normal” dose of HCQ for arthritis is 400 mg/day (see below) … exactly what did the Brazil doctors think was going to happen in the high dose arm of their study.  Looks like it was designed to fail, to me.

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  • Sat, May 30, 2020 - 10:42am

    #58

    davefairtex

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    surgisphere reaction

    In so doing, we join agencies including the U.S. Food and Drug Administration, as well as several other observational studies reported in the NEJMJAMA and the BMJ, each of which have pointed to either no benefit of the drug regimens using hydroxychloroquine or chloroquine or even a signal of potential harm

    Logical Fallacy: Appeal to Authority

    "Hey!  We're saying the same thing that these Really Fancy Journals are saying!  We think HCQ is lame too!  We are so mainstream it hurts!  This is how you know our study can't possibly be flawed."

    Now I'm just piling on.

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  • Sat, May 30, 2020 - 10:55am

    #59
    Chris Martenson

    Chris Martenson

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    SurgiFraud

    The picture is coming clear - "Dr" Desai is a serial fraud, at best a person who plays fast and loose to achieve his aims.

    Check out this background from The Scientist:

    Surgisphere and its founder

    Desai is now focused on Surgisphere, which currently has 11 employees, he tells The Scientist. Surgisphere’s website states that, “When Dr. Sapan Desai founded Surgisphere Corporation, the mission was simple: to harness the power of data analytics and improve the lives of as many people as possible.” Desai tells The Scientist that his company has always been involved in data analytics.

    When Desai established the company in 2008 while a surgical resident at Duke University in Durham, North Carolina, Surgisphere Corporation’s most visible activity was marketing textbooks, produced by Surgisphere, to medical students.

    Sapan Desai says he can understand people’s concerns and that the burden of proof rests with Surgisphere.
    Reviews of the company’s products on Amazon are polarized, and a handful of positive reviews that appeared to impersonate actual physicians were removed when those doctors complained to Amazon. Kimberli S. Cox, a breast surgical oncologist based in Arizona, tells The Scientist that she was one of several practicing physicians who in 2008 discovered five-star reviews next to names that were identical or very similar to their own, that they had not written. She and her colleagues successfully persuaded Amazon to take the reviews down.

    Desai denies that he knew about or was in any way involved in the posting of fake reviews for Surgisphere’s products. “If I wanted to review my own products, I could do it in my own name,” he says. Amazon did not return requests for comment before this story was published.

    When Desai moved to the University of Texas Health Science Center at Houston in 2012 as a fellow in vascular surgery, he registered Surgisphere Corporation in Texas. By that point, Surgisphere had started publishing the Journal of Surgical Radiology, a medical journal that, according to its website, “accrued over 50,000 subscribers spanning almost every country around the world” from 2010 to 2013.

    The website further notes that, “With almost one million page views per month, J Surg Rad earned a reputation as one of the first high quality peer-reviewed online medical journals. The Journal was indexed by most of the major medical indexes, and specific articles still appear in PubMed, EBSCO, and other sources.”

    “It was amazing how fast we were able to grow it,” Desai tells The Scientist. “We had quite the editorial board.” The last issue was published in January 2013. “Running a medical journal is a full-time job,” he says. “I ran out of time.”

    To recap:

    • - Desai says that Surgisphere was always involved with data analytics when it actually started by marketing textbooks.
    •  -Those products somehow got with fake/fraudulent 5-star reviews on Amazon that impersonated legitimate and prominent doctors.
    • - Desai also claims to have started a wildly successful (allegedly) medical journal that was apparently so successful he decided to shut it down.

    And later in life:

    Surgisphere is currently headquartered in Palatine, Illinois, and run by Desai, who trained in vascular surgery, a subject on which he has published many scientific articles and books. Until February 10 of this year, Desai was employed by Northwest Community Hospital (NCH) in suburban Arlington Heights. He tells The Scientist that he resigned for family reasons.  

    Court records in Cook County, Illinois, show that Desai is named in three medical malpractice lawsuits filed in the second half of 2019. He tells The Scientist in a statement sent through his public relations representative Michael Roth of Bliss Integrated that while he can’t comment on ongoing litigation, he “deems any lawsuit naming him to be unfounded.”

    He also sent a comment purporting to be from Alan Loren, the executive vice president and chief medical officer of NCH: “Dr. Desai was employed at NCH and resigned in February 2020. We did not have any problems with him while he was here.” 

    Asked by The Scientist if he made this statement, Loren says, “What I can tell you is that he was employed here and he did resign. I can’t speak to whether or not there were any problems.” He adds that he spoke to Desai on May 28 and told him that “what I recall is that he resigned. I don’t remember the exact date. And that was it.”

    To recap:

    • - Has three malpractice suits filed in just the last half of 2019
    • - Leaves the associated facility "for family reasons."
    • - Puts out a edited/falsified statement from the EVP of the facility that reads "We did not have any problems with him while he was here.” when the actual statement (in pure CYA HR mumbly speak) from the EVP is "I can’t speak to whether or not there were any problems.”

    The difference between "I can't speak to" and "We did not have any problems with" is absolutely night and day.

    So the pattern emerges.  Dr. Desai has a long track record of altering and modifying everything from reviews to workplace performance matters.  I know this type through and through.  We all do.

    This is the character that the W.H.O and Dr. Fauci have staked their reputations.  This is the person upon which Brigham & Women's Hospital staked their reputation.  This is the person that is directly responsible for HVQ clinical trials and availability being terminated.

    If I'm right, and I think I am - this is the greatest episode of malpractice in his career.

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  • Sat, May 30, 2020 - 11:24am

    #60
    Chris Martenson

    Chris Martenson

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    Posts: 5150

    11+

    More on SurgiFraud

    I have no clue about what's actually involved in linking patient/hospital records at the detail level, I just know it must be a technical and legal nightmare.

    So I knew Surgisphere was a complete fraud when I read their claims.  Now I know more about exactly why my bullshit meters went off:

    A peer-reviewed study that probably used fabricated data

    If you’re following at all the search for COVID-19 treatments, and possibly even if not, you will have seen the flurry of media coverage for the observational study in The Lancet ‘Hydroxychloroquine or chloroquine with or without a macrolide for treatment of COVID-19: a multinational registry analysis. It made the news not least because hydroxychloroquine is the drug President Trump says he is taking in the belief that it will reduce his chance of catching COVID-19. This view is not backed up evidence until some randomised trials come in. Getting in before the trials, the Lancet study used propensity score matching to try to control for the non-random treatment. It found that taking hydroxychloroquine and chloroquine were associated with an increased risk of heart problems.

    I am highly skeptical of the powers of hydroxychloroquine with relation to COVID-19 (‘skeptical’ in the sense that I have suspended judgement for now - there simply isn’t evidence either way). But I want the test of its properties to be done properly, with random controlled trials. And if we are to use observational studies (which I do not object to, they just aren’t as useful as an experiment where you can manipulate the treatment), they have to use real data.

    The data in that study, and in at least one preprint on a second treatment, were provided by an Illinois firm called Surgisphere. Allegedly the data represents the treatment and health outcomes of 96,032 patients from 671 hospitals in six continents. However, there is simply no plausible way I can think of that the data are real.

    I’ll say that again - I believe with very high probability the data behind that high profile, high consequence Lancet study are completely fabricated.

    If Surgisphere can name the 671 participating hospitals or otherwise prove that the data is real I will retract that statement, delete this post or write whatever humbling apology they desire. But I think there’s nearly zero chance of that happening.

    Could Surgisphere really have patient data from 671 hospitals?
    I’m far from the first to ask for more information on this amazing new database no-one had heard of, and they’ve had a week to explain. This what they came up with:

    The Surgisphere registry is an aggregation of the deidentified electronic health records of customers of QuartzClinical, Surgisphere’s machine learning program and data analytics platform. Surgisphere directly integrates with the EHRs of our hospital customers to provide them actionable data insights to improve efficiency and effectiveness. As part of these QuartzClinical customer agreements, Surgisphere, as a global healthcare data collaborative, has permission to include these hospitals’ EHR data in its queryable registry/database of real-world, real-time patient encounters.

    While our data use agreements with these institutions prevents us from sharing patient level data or customer names, we are able to complete appropriate analyses and share aggregate findings to the wider scientific community.
    (“EHR” is Electronic Health Record ie patients’ personal data). Frankly, this doesn’t pass the laugh test.

    I can imagine why any hospital customers would not want to be named, because if it came out that they are allowing their data to go to Illinois to be analysed at will - the Lancet article says it was “deemed” that ethical approval was not needed - there would surely be an outcry. This would be a much bigger scandal than Facebook giving data to Cambridge Analytica. After all, what we post on Facebook was seen by many people as quasi-public. Imagine having your electronic health records - patient demographics, medical history, medications, allergies, lab results, radiology results - given to Cambridge Analytica.

    In Australia, we recently had a major public controversy about sharing health records between health providers. I can’t imagine the reaction if it was found they were being shared with overseas researchers without permission or knowledge. And the fact that hospitals aren’t named by Surgisphere means that no patient of any hospital in the world knows whether or not their data is used in this study.

    But hang on, you might say, this data (which remember, I think doesn’t exist but let’s pretend it does for the sake of argument) isn’t going to a shady outfit like Cambridge Analytica, it’s going to the “global healthcare data collaborative” Surgisphere.

    Right, let’s look at Surgisphere. Surgisphere has five employees with LinkedIn accounts. Other than the CE and co-author of the Lancet paper, these are a VP of Business Development and Strategy, a Vice President of Sales and Marketing, and two Science Editors (actually, one Science Editor and one Scoence Editor, which does not inspire confidence in their attention to detail while editing). LinkedIn also records one employee of QuartzClinical - a director of sales marketing.

    Here are some of the people you might expect to work for a genuine global health care data collaborative, that had sold software to 671 hospitals and integrated with their electronic health record (EHR) systems, and that coordinates an ongoing international health research collaboration:

    • global network manager and coordinators
    • hospital/customer liaison team
    • support staff / help desk
    • trainers, and developers of training material
    • researchers
    • legal team to deal with privacy and contract issues in dealing with 670+ hospitals. Issues coming from the EU’s GDPR alone would keep a substantial legal team busy I’m sure.
    • software or database developers. Like, maybe a humble extract-transform-load developer or two to get those billions of rows of transactions data into a database.
    • database administrators and data engineers
    • EHR integration solutions specialists
    • data governance lead
    • if any of the above are outsourced, a procurement team to handle all the sub-contracting

    Surgisphere does not have any of these people, except for Sapan Desai who doubles up as chief executive and medical researcher (a good indication of the size of the firm - most CEs are not also active publishing researchers). Judging from its LinkedIn profile, his team is three sales executives and two science editors.

    Nor does Surgisphere or any of its staff have a presence on GitHub. Nor an explanation anywhere of the impressive data engineering that would be required to wrangle all that data. Nor journal articles, conference papers or even blog posts describing its network, the APIs that connect it, how proud they are of their Hadoop cluster on AWS, which database platform they use, etc etc etc - all the things that real firms that have made impressive innovations (like the first ever world-wide database of individual level hospital data would be, if it were real).

    Yet Surgisphere claims to have sold software to 671 hospitals. What would it cost to deploy machine learning data analytics software to a hospital and integrate it with the EHR? This isn’t some light and easy integration like installing a stats package on a PC and giving it an ODBC connection to a database.

    The integration to the EHR systems and the way we know they use the data means, at a minimum, sending all the data to the cloud. That means you need to deal with network and security architects, have extremely robust testing, bullet-proof security (remember, some of the closest guarded sensitive data in the world), go through who knows what red tape at each hospital in terms of convincing their data governance people of what you are doing.

    I don’t know, but $1 million each deployment can’t be far off the mark. Certainly not less than $300k a pop. So Surgisphere should be a billion dollar company if it’s done this 670 times, but it clearly is not. In fact, Dun and Bradstreet estimate its revenue at $45,245. You couldn’t even do the discovery stage of an EHR integration project at a single hospital for that, never mind deploy anything.

    Of course, EHR integration is a real thing, and it’s done usually to move patient information securely around. For example, a quick google found this useful presentation about EMR integration (EMR and EHR are basically interchangeable terms) in the Great Lakes region. I notice Surgisphere is conspicuously absent from the list of presenters on slide 10.

    This makes it kind of surprising (but not really) that they claim in the Lancet article to have data on most COVID-19 hospital cases in North America diagnosed before 14 April 2020 - 63,315 such cases in the study according to Table S1, which would have been a clear majority of all hospital cases.

    Yep.  Case closed.  It's a complete fraud through and through.  Now we get to see if any of the following have any integrity at all; Fauci, WHO, most of the mainstream media, various state governors and health boards, and pharmacists.

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  • Sat, May 30, 2020 - 11:37am

    davefairtex

    Status: Member

    Joined: Sep 03 2008

    Posts: 2075

    7+

    out on a limb

    Seems like "complete fraud" is the answer.

    It does appear that some group of people are so desperate to make HCQ go away, they move heaven and earth to get "studies" done that go the way they want, but to do this, they have to hitch their wagon to increasingly more dubious researchers...climbing further and further out on a limb, until the group of non-corrupt scientists finally get so outraged, they chop the limb off in utter disgust.

    That's what is happening now.

    Now just imagine what happens if the desperate group doubles down?

    Any remaining faith in the system by normal, thinking researchers will just totally snap.  The desperate group will become totally discredited among the non-corrupt group.

    Then - what happens next?

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  • Sat, May 30, 2020 - 12:09pm

    #62
    JWhite

    JWhite

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    Joined: Jul 12 2016

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    Re: the Lancet Study - confirms what was already known

    To add to all the other valuable observations, and video comments, already mentioned re: the Chloroquine / HCQ Lancet study:

    What are the chances that 4 cardiologists, one of whom supplies the secret data, are going to find a result that HCQ / Chloroquine is related to a higher rate of mortality than the control group, when they include in the HCQ and Chloroquine groups a significant percentage of patients having comorbidities for which there would normally be a contraindication for these drugs?

    The cardiologists excluded from their analysis patients who were administered HCQ or Chloroquine more than 48 hours after diagnosis, those on ventilators and those taking Remdesivir, so clearly they went through the step of considering which patients should be included and excluded. Is it not reasonable to assume that at least one of the 4 cardiologists should have thought to exclude the patients with heart related comorbidities and diabetes, as being invalid subjects in the test groups? And would it not be expected that if these patients are included in the analysis, a higher rate of deaths may be seen in the results?

    Some calculations from Table 2:
    Number in the 4 test groups = 14,888
    Number with heart related comorbidities (first 3 rows) in test groups: 3000
    Number with diabetes in test groups: 2208

    % with heart related comorbidities: 20.15 %
    % with diabetes: 14.79 %
    % with heart related comorbidities and/or diabetes: 34.94 %

    Findings from the study:
    “…when compared with mortality in the control group (9·3%), hydroxychloroquine (18·0%; hazard ratio 1·335, 95% CI 1·223–1·457), hydroxychloroquine with a macrolide (23·8%; 1·447, 1·368–1·531), chloroquine (16·4%; 1·365, 1·218–1·531), and chloroquine with a macrolide (22·2%; 1·368, 1·273–1·469) were each independently associated with an increased risk of in-hospital mortality. Compared with the control group (0·3%), hydroxychloroquine (6·1%; 2·369, 1·935–2·900), hydroxychloroquine with a macrolide (8·1%; 5·106, 4·106–5·983), chloroquine (4·3%; 3·561, 2·760–4·596), and chloroquine with a macrolide (6·5%; 4·011, 3·344–4·812) were independently associated with an increased risk of de-novo ventricular arrhythmia during hospitalisation.”

    and

    “Ventricular arrhythmias were more common in the treatment groups compared with the control population. Mortality was higher in the treatment groups compared with the control population (p<0·0001; appendix pp 15–18).”

    Conclusion:
    It seems that this study (if it were valid) would confirm what was already known, that HCQ and Chloroquine should not be administered to those with known heart issues (and perhaps also to diabetes patients)?  Note the percentage of deaths is quite close between the heart patients and the percentage of deaths observed in the test groups - but we do not know if these are the same patients because the data is a secret.

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  • Sat, May 30, 2020 - 12:32pm

    #63
    Mohammed Mast

    Mohammed Mast

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    Flush the Lancet

    Well any credibility it may have had has just been washed away into  the Thames by way of a sewer.

    That however is not the problem. The problem is John Q Public is never going to hear the rest of the story. This story has spread far and wide thanks to the lame stream media. What will not spread far and wide is the information here and elsewhere debunking the whole fantasy John Q Public Will have only gotten the headline and will go on believing HCQ kills people.

    There is no one in any position to counter the onslaught of negative press. Roualt has been marginalized as some maverick. Zelenko has virtually disappeared after being on Hannity. A few doctors here and there continue to use HCQ but success gets no press.

    The fix is clearly in. Money talks.  Behind all of this you will find the Gates foundation. Not a day goes by that I don't receive a Gates puff piece in my news feed. ( These are the three things Bill Gates does every week , and you should too). There is probably not one major drug company, medical organization, including the WHO. or government thay has not been influenced by Gates.

    The question is what does a billionaire want? More money ? Of course? His net wealth has increased 2x since he started his foundation and has GIVEN AWAY BILLIONS. He wants control. He wants control of every aspect of every human on the planet. Vaccination is just one part of it. Think biometric ID cards for everyone. Think digital currency so the EVERY financial transaction can be tracked and traced. A digital global file with EVERYTHING about you in a database accessed by who? Much of it is already in place. Militarized police, a military police force thanks to 2012 NDAA sec. 1021 which allows the US military to arrest anyone anywhere w/o charges, indefinitely w/o access to a lawyer. As documented by Edward Snowden every email, text , phone conversation etc is collected and stored at the NSA in Utah. There is more, much more but you all get the idea.

    These people have no allegiance to any country. None whatsoever. They are interested only in control over the entire planet. The suckers in this Kabuki Theater are the rest of us.

    So as this tempest in a teacup plays out the credibility of prestigious medical journals, the integrity of journalists any faith in any institution at all is the least of the issues. These people never sleep and they never stop. They truly believe they are doing god's work. That's dangerous

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  • Sat, May 30, 2020 - 12:38pm

    #64
    yagasjai

    yagasjai

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    More on Blood Disease

    Chris,

    Hi- not sure if anyone else has posted this yet, but I just saw this article and it reminded me of videos you did a while ago about the blood angle on Covid vs the lung angle. Wondered what you think now? Have you obtained any additional info on this since those videos?

    https://elemental.medium.com/coronavirus-may-be-a-blood-vessel-disease-which-explains-everything-2c4032481ab2

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  • Sat, May 30, 2020 - 12:39pm

    #65
    Mohammed Mast

    Mohammed Mast

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    Posts: 493

    4+

    Who is Bill Gates?

    I have posted this elsewhere but it seems like it should be posted here once again. This is 4 parts and will give you a pretty good idea of what the plan is.

    https://www.corbettreport.com/gates/

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  • Sat, May 30, 2020 - 1:06pm

    #66
    yagasjai

    yagasjai

    Status: Member

    Joined: Apr 18 2009

    Posts: 116

    Personal Air Purifier

    A friend of mine also recommended this personal air purifier to wear around my neck now that the person I live with has come home from a 4-day stay in the hospital (not because of Covid). This device does not seem like it could possibly be nearly as reliable as wearing a mask when we are in common spaces together, but I wanted to ask if anyone here knows about devices like this and what you think?

    https://moldinspectionspringfieldma.com/air-purification/

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  • Sat, May 30, 2020 - 2:24pm

    taz1999

    taz1999

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    Posts: 38

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    The credit is mine ha ha ha (say as invader zim)

    I'm coining the term......
    Surgigate.

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  • Sat, May 30, 2020 - 2:34pm

    JWhite

    JWhite

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    Re: Surgisphere--follow the money

    Regarding the question of who paid for the study, the 'Follow up to the Lancet Study' on the Surgisphere website states:

    "This study was not funded by any drug company, private or public donor, or political organization. Our collaborators devote their time through personal funds and resources."

    It also states:

    "Surgisphere itself is ISO 9001:2015 and ISO 27001:2013 certified – the latter is a very strict data security and data integrity standard. Mandatory audits happen at least four times a year, and everything from data acquisition to data reporting is independently reviewed by an external third-party auditor."

    The name of the company or individual which conducts the audits is not specified.  It would be interesting for someone to ask for the auditor's statement as to the validity of the data.

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  • Sat, May 30, 2020 - 2:35pm

    #69
    taz1999

    taz1999

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    Joined: Feb 25 2020

    Posts: 38

    Clue or coincidence; just before corona was becoming a thing

    Doesn't seem like an exact match but wow,  looks like a map

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  • Sat, May 30, 2020 - 3:03pm

    #70
    nordicjack

    nordicjack

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    WHy doesn't a patient have any rights to what he wants in risk/reward with drugs.. ?

    I mean its his or her own body?  if one feels the risk of a bloody heart arrhythmia is worth the risk of saving your life or permanent damage from covid, so be it.. But we have to accept that death and permanent vaccine injury is an acceptable risk for a perfectly healthy 4 year old?  When there is no imminent risk of disease?  WTF .. comon/.  really?!

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  • Sat, May 30, 2020 - 3:16pm

    #71
    nordicjack

    nordicjack

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    Where is the empirical evidence. ?

    For sure , you would have to have real world drs going, i tried use of HCQ but i lost a bunch of patients to Ventricular arrhythmia.   But instead , we have drs saying, this stuff is working. I am not having any heart issues with my 1000s of patients treated..

    Simple sugisphere.. Give me just two drs.. Y ou have to have the treating drs for these 96k patients..  give me just two - with affidavit , that say they lost patients , due to heart issues they think or believe was due to the medications use.

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  • Sat, May 30, 2020 - 3:29pm

    #72
    nordicjack

    nordicjack

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    You know why this study has to be complete fraud?

    Because , HCQ doesnt cause these problems.  And has never caused these problems.  and any dr who has used it will not testify to such problems.  and You and I know this works.  Why, simple, those who took it early are alive and well - and did not even have to be counted in anything relating to hospital treatment - You can not prove a negative.  I cant prove that I saved a life with a drug..   If you give a drug to 100 people and 100 people die - you would bet its not by accident.  If you give a drug - to 100 people and none die - there is no way to prove that they were saved by the drug.     I can tell you , give me the drug.. people taking HCQ dont die and are not hospitalized for covid.. You are going to have to give me a lot more evidence then the fact you gave it to dying people.. and they died.. to tell me it doesnt work//

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  • Sat, May 30, 2020 - 4:02pm

    #73
    westcoastjan

    westcoastjan

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    Mohammed, it is not about doing god's work....

    It is about being god. I have no doubts that there is a serious god complex present in Bill Gates as well as all of his co-conspirators. The following is from a 2014 interview re Bill Gates' religious beliefs (the bold my emphasis):

    "... As for his biggest fears in the next 50 years, he said that the world needs to do more to address climate change, counter large-scale terrorism and address global health concerns.

    "I understand how every healthy child, every new road, puts a country on a better path, but instability and war will arise from time to time, and I'm not an expert on how you get out of those things," he said.

    "I wish there was an invention or advance to fix that. So there'll be some really bad things that'll happen in the next 50 or 100 years, but hopefully none of them on the scale of, say, a million people that you didn't expect to die from a pandemic, or nuclear or bioterrorism."

    Source

    Knowing what we know now, I see two things in what he said 6 years ago: an acknowledgement of a plan, and a hope the plan would not go awry and have worse outcomes than anticipated.

    I believe it was Stalin who said "A single death is a tragedy, a million deaths is a statistic." There is evil within every ideology. Capitalism, or rather this crap they are calling capitalism, does not get a pass as being all wholesome and good. That system just happens to be better at controlling the optics & narratives, and hiding the atrocities. That is where having lots of money comes in handy - to spend, bribe and fund all manner of deceit to cover up evil shit. (Oh, and to also be able to hide from said shit and keep on living the good life on big yachts and far away islands or locales...)

    I do still think they are not invulnerable. I can only hope that at some point in the future there will be a reckoning and justice for all those culpable, especially those at the top who hold positions of trust. I dearly hope I live long enough to see crimes against humanity proven and prosecuted, and justice, whatever possible in a corrupt world, served.

    In that, perhaps we need to place trust in the real God, or whomever, or whatever power or deity suits one's personal belief system. It sure would be nice to have some divine intervention to ensure we are able to continue our existence as more than just statistics.

    Jan

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  • Sat, May 30, 2020 - 7:03pm

    #74
    Ision

    Ision

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    You Know You are Anti-Social...

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  • Sat, May 30, 2020 - 7:56pm

    nordicjack

    nordicjack

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    Yeah - no change in my life from this

    When you are disabled and have difficulty shopping mind playing a round of golf.. - coronavirus has little to no impact on my life.. virtually none , sad to say.

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  • Sat, May 30, 2020 - 8:51pm

    James

    James

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    SurgiFraud

    Our group practice needs hospital patient data to bill professional component (hospital bills technical component). After the hospital changed ownership, it took 2 years for the IT personnel of the respective entities to build an interface. One hospital, one country, one language. I am in Utah and trained at the University of Utah. Embarrassing that their Biomedical Engineering Department (A N Patel, MD) signed on to this fraud. The implications of this fiasco for public health are staggering. I will write the University President, Governor and Department of Professional Licensing. Someone needs to be held accountable.

    Thanks for your excellent reporting, Chris.

     

     

     

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  • Sat, May 30, 2020 - 9:59pm

    #77
    Orsonw

    Orsonw

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    This is not visible on the YouTube channel

    I subscribe to your channel, but this video does not appear in the list of videos. I was expecting it after reading the Guardian article, so was wondering had happened. You are getting too close to heart of something dark in my view. When you join the concurrent threads of the source of the virus and the suppression of HCQ it really is time to get the tin foil hat out. I have resisted all the 5G nonsense, and that crazy Mikovits woman, but there is something going on.

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  • Sat, May 30, 2020 - 10:34pm

    #78
    dryam2000

    dryam2000

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    Smokers in NEJM “study” and Lancet

    Chris, you work is truly exemplary and what is truly excellent is that you do what you do for completely unselfish reasons.

    In Desai’s NEJM retrospective study that was said to be looking at any potential effect of ACE-I’s, ARB’s, and statins on CV-19 in hospitalized patients the number of current smokers in North America, Europe, and Asia was around 5% each.  In the Lancet study it doubled to between 10-12% for each continent.  Damn, I restarted taking my ARB (Micardis) because of seeing that in the NEJM.  I feel like such an idiot.

    NEJM Sapan Desai article

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  • Sun, May 31, 2020 - 12:09am

    #79
    MQ

    MQ

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    Surgifraud--what's next?

    It appears that the Surgisphere study was made up out of whole cloth. So, the question now is whether the people/publications/govt entities--those we count on to know what they  are talking about--will have the integrity to either admit they were hoodwinked or have to admit to being, in essence, accessory to fraud.  It is becoming increasingly hard for the anti-hydroxychloroquine bunch to keep up the appearance of credibility.

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  • Sun, May 31, 2020 - 2:07am

    #80

    thatchmo

    Status: Silver Member

    Joined: Dec 13 2008

    Posts: 217

    Awaiting...

    ...the President's tweet on this Surgifraud development......Aloha, Steve

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  • Sun, May 31, 2020 - 3:31am

    #81

    sofistek

    Status: Platinum Member

    Joined: Oct 02 2008

    Posts: 712

    Viral Load

    Seems like there isn't a whole lot of evidence that a high viral load results in a worse outcome but nothing conclusive either way and it's not like there can be a randomised controlled blind trial. I'd still go for minimising it.

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  • Sun, May 31, 2020 - 5:37am

    #82
    summitday113

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    Lancet study from 2003 concludes HCQ has

    Link to full article:

    https://www.thelancet.com/journals/laninf/article/PIIS1473-3099(03)00806-5/fulltext?fbclid=IwAR0LTG0U0zvEWA1C5cPq9nmJb0oPejBxmoycvcrSC3imIl1W2Z3ITJqWJgU

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  • Sun, May 31, 2020 - 5:54am

    #83
    Orangedem

    Orangedem

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    NYT article on HCQ study

    "Scientists Question Major HCQ Study"

     

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  • Sun, May 31, 2020 - 5:59am

    #84
    summitday113

    summitday113

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    Surgisphere under scruitny

    This article delves into the history of Surgisphere. Quite the read. They provided data for a study in the NEJM as well. And they are working on a third HCQ study.

    I'm a physician board certified in General Preventive Medicine and Public Health- and I'm in contact with a number of physicians who think HCQ should be used for COVID early in disease.

    https://www.the-scientist.com/news-opinion/disputed-hydroxychloroquine-study-brings-scrutiny-to-surgisphere-67595

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  • Sun, May 31, 2020 - 6:44am

    Mohammed Mast

    Mohammed Mast

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    god's work

    I guess you missed the reference. Lloyd Blankfein made the statement that he was doing god's work at Goldman Sachs.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b5djoibYRn8

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  • Sun, May 31, 2020 - 8:46am

    westcoastjan

    westcoastjan

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    Money is one thing, life is another

    Nope, did not miss that Mohammed. I do not doubt there are MANY especially in the 1% who think they are doing god's work. That was more about money though. The one's I am talking about are the ones like Bill Gates and his merry band of colluding partners who are playing around nefariously with 'life' itself. That, in my mind, is far, far more concerning than the bunch believing they are doing god's work by plundering and stealing. They are all evil, but some much more so than others.

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  • Sun, May 31, 2020 - 10:00am

    #87
    M E Kaplan

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    Azithromycin

    My brother-in-law, as well as another male friend, took the Z-pac for infection and one year later developed Aortic Aneurysms that required surgery to repair.  I wonder how many of the cardiac or vascular issues from the HCQ/Azithromycin combo were actually caused by the antibiotic???  Granted this is anecdotal but I live in a Very rural area and these are the only two people I personally know who had this happen.  Is this possibly an issue?

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  • Sun, May 31, 2020 - 1:40pm

    Mohammed Mast

    Mohammed Mast

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    Zpack side effects

    https://www.drugs.com/sfx/azithromycin-side-effects.html

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  • Sun, May 31, 2020 - 2:02pm

    #89
    Snowball Financial

    Snowball Financial

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    Crack in the Story

    In today's news:

     

    http://Beijing now admits that coronavirus DIDN'T start in Wuhan's market https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8373007/Beijing-admits-coronavirus-DIDNT-start-Wuhans-market-DID-come-from.html

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  • Sun, May 31, 2020 - 4:41pm

    #90

    sofistek

    Status: Platinum Member

    Joined: Oct 02 2008

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    1+

    The future of Covid-19

    So, what lies ahead for this virus? Lockdowns are a short term tactic. Face-masks can slow the spread. Drugs may have a role but not everyone will want to be on drugs long term. We don't know if contracting the virus yields more than short term immunity, or if a vaccine can be developed.

    I know Chris has stated many times that he doesn't want to catch the virus but is there a high chance that any of us will become infected over the next few years?

    Few people want the economy to close permanently or borders to remain largely closed.

    Personally, at the moment, I think we need to allow the virus to spread but slowly, so health systems don't get overwhelmed. It's unlikely that the virus can be eradicated so we really have to accept some kind of spread and hope the infected to become immune, at least for a period that assists the slow spread. Should we wear masks for ever, and keep our distance as much as possible?

    Chris has stated that better times will come out of this, though he hasn't said much about that. I can't see much good coming out of it, myself, but it would be nice to have some hope. And this is from a New Zealander who has seen his country virtually eliminate the virus for now.

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  • Sun, May 31, 2020 - 6:17pm

    nordicjack

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    re covid future

    I would say its very bleak.  We have one two options.

    1.  This circulates for years,  everyone eventually gets it 1,2 or more times.   It is hell and not pleasant.  It causes permanent damage if you get it and are not in tip-top health.   Ultimately, there will be more viruses that it activates as your immunity retracts.  LIKE CFS with XMRV.   And we all are on disability or dead.  We force a quick and dirty vaccine, that offers some protection,  but has long-last additional consequences; It's a global killer.  ( including irreparable social-economic damage )

    2.  We all learn disease hygiene and etiquette.  We adjust our life-style.  We let the hydroxychloroquine flow freely.  and develop a rapid test, and put everyone on HCQ prophylactically at the first sign of illness, giving us time to slow it down - push it back -and develop a proper vaccine.     We go back to work immediately and live our new lives.

    Which one do you think will be done.. when given only the two options as I see it?

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  • Sun, May 31, 2020 - 6:41pm

    #92
    dryam2000

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    Aortic aneurysm

    I would highly doubt there was any connection between azithromycin and the aortic aneurysms.  Azithromycin is one of the most commonly prescribed antibiotics, if not the most common.  I don’t think there is any relationship with aortic aneurysms.  Having said that, azithromycin can also prolong the QTc interval on the EKG.  This prolonged QTc is what increases one’s risk of lethal cardiac arrhythmias.  The prolongation of the QTc tends to be additive meaning adding a second or third QTc prolonging medication increases the risks.  Thus, some of the relative contraindications for giving HCQ include those with known cardiovascular disease....and those who are taking other medications which are known to prolong the QTc.  Personally, I would not take (or prescribe) HCQ in conjunction with azithromycin unless there was clear evidence the potential benefits of azithromycin exceeded the risks and I haven’t seen enough current evidence for this. However, I would not have any reservations about taking HCQ with zinc early in infection, or even prophylactically, given my risks factors of being 54 years old and having hypertension.  That’s not medical advice as each individual has different risk/benefit profiles.

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  • Sun, May 31, 2020 - 8:45pm

    #93

    sofistek

    Status: Platinum Member

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    Options

    Well, letting HCQ flow freely might stretch resources, if tens or hundreds of millions get it each year. A proper vaccine might never be developed. To keep up good hygene, everyone needs access to soap and clean water, or plentiful sanitiser.

    So of your options, option 2 seems more likely but there isn't enough information yet, on the virus, to know its long term or permanent impacts on sufferers. I'm not sure we'd be allowed to get hold of good information now - look at the lack of proper studies on HCQ when that would have been simple.

    So, still at a loss about the future of this.

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  • Sun, May 31, 2020 - 9:42pm

    nordicjack

    nordicjack

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    HCQ flowing freely

    This can be synthetically manufactured , I think based on its global use for Malaria , it could probably be scaled fairly easily.   I think the dosing is rather short and minimal - its like 400mg twice daily day 1,  and then 200mg til day 5.   Its not a lot of stuff.. You dont need to live on it .. just take at first symptoms.   Probably need about 1/100 of the production amount of over-the-counter fever/anti-inflammatory meds  So, its not like you cant produce meds in the volume..  It would certainly be easier than manufacturing a vaccine in the same volume.   So i dont think there is any resource issue there.

    When I mean good hygiene, i dont mean just washing hands..  It involves going out when sick and touching things people use when sick.. and coughing out in public .. without mask.. and pick your nose and touching eyes etc... there are a lot things far beyond washing and sanitizing.   I truly belive HCQ is safe enough to be sold over-the-counter.   Of course its toxic at high levels.. but trust me you can OD on almost all over-the-counter stuff.

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  • Sun, May 31, 2020 - 9:59pm

    nordicjack

    nordicjack

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    RE aortic aneurysm

    This would double your risk of having an aneurysm.  If you have a genetic or family history.. Id avoid this stuff like the plague.   ( aneurysm is hereditary heart disease )  a lot of time its dismissed.  because you don't see it like other heart conditions.

    Never the less, Zpak is a nasty antibiotic.. Yes take if you must.  But I agree dont take prophylatically with HCQ.  Not saying dont add it if you get bacterial pneumonia.    But even though it does cause prolonged QT syndrome, as does many other meds, Its not likely to cause you cardiac death neither will most the other meds/. But stacking these meds with the heart issues caused by covid ( late in the game ) along with a history of heart disease - is a recipe for disaster.  ( i wouldnt give this stuff  with HCQ to hospitalized patients )  Again, take the stuff early , before you get into trouble.

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  • Mon, Jun 01, 2020 - 12:09am

    DaveDD

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    Which option

    Hi Nordicjack,

    I would prefer option 2. But as I’m rather cynic about TPTB, including the pharma industry, I think that option 1 will be pushed.

    It’s just a matter of money and control. The monetary stakes are extremely high.

    Just to get an idea about the order of magnitude of the money involved, assume that on average 10 million persons will get it once per year till herd immunity in the First World (population~1.4 billion) . Lets also assume that HCQ protocol in total costs 10 USD, and “vaccin” between 1000 and 10.000 USD dollars.

    revenues option1:

    - 10 to 100 billion USD per year till herd immunity ,

    - total (70% herd) revenue: between 1 to 10 trillion USD.

    revenues option2:

    - 0.1 billion USD/yr,

    - total (70% herd) revenue:  10 billion USD.

    So, to saveguard future income, I expect a big push for one global approach. The “hearts and the minds” of the First Worlds leaders have to be won. Uptill now, MSM, scientists, and reputed journals faithfully play their part in this game. Why? I believe that psychopathy plays a role: psychopathy is all about control and self-interest.  Only 1% of the population can be classified as psychopath (source), while higher up the hierarchy this percentage increases (source):

    According to British psychologist Kevin Dutton, the top four career choices for psychopaths are CEO, attorney, media personality and salesperson. (source)

    Although not many psychopaths are interested in harming others, they operate outside of morality. History teaches that you only need a few manipulative, amoral persons with twisted ideas in influential positions to control a whole nation. The majority of the populace will follow obediently because we are evolutionary wired to do so.

    So, I hope it will be option2, I’m afraid it will be option 1. Best to prepare for that scenario.

     

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  • Mon, Jun 01, 2020 - 4:16am

    #97
    David McKenney

    David McKenney

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    David McKenney said:

    The giant virus in the room

    https://www.telesurenglish.net/opinion/Corporate-Vaccine-Makers-Need-More-Pandemics-to-Grow-20200524-0009.html

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  • Mon, Jun 01, 2020 - 4:29am

    #98
    yagasjai

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    Risk from Touching Surfaces

    There are two articles I've seen recently that seem to suggest that the highest risk for infection is by being in an enclosed space for long periods of time with an infected person, not from touching surfaces and then your face.

    https://www.erinbromage.com/post/the-risks-know-them-avoid-them

    In the first article, it explains that the risk is exposure to virus (load) x time. So in terms of a trip to a grocery store, the load would be low in a large store and the time would be short. Which is lower risk than being in an office with a heating system running for an entire day. That's higher risk because of the time in the enclosed space, even if initially the load was low.

    https://www.mcall.com/coronavirus/sns-nyt-coronavirus-risk-surface-20200529-nduhgwuja5bz5m7h6ymbqwzzya-story.html

    Then in this second article, it talks about how the CDC recently downgraded their warnings that surface transmission (fomite transmission) as a cause for concern. (They came back and issued a statement that it is still a "potential risk.") But the article explains that it is a long chain of transmission to contract Covid from a surface, presumably because the load is lower than what you'd get from direct contact with an infected person. Again, via air.

    So I wanted to check if anyone here has updated your thinking in regards to surface contact and what protocols you either are or are no longer taking in regards to groceries, mail, etc... I know that a while ago the standard was 9 days for rotating masks, because it was thought that the longest the virus could survive on a surface was 9 days. I also know that the NEJM came out with this study in mid-April with estimates for how long the virus can last on different surfaces. If the primary way of getting infected is by prolonged periods of time in an enclosed space with an infected person, how has this affected people's day-to-day protocols for handling surface transmission?

     

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  • Mon, Jun 01, 2020 - 5:22am

    #99
    Mohammed Mast

    Mohammed Mast

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    Dr. Zelenko

    Good interview 4 days ago.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XH_zQ4lwhvE

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  • Mon, Jun 01, 2020 - 10:04am

    nordicjack

    nordicjack

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    Risk of touching surface

    First, I want you to think closely about how the flu is spread,  The flu is spread by surface not by close contact with infected person.  How do we know this?  Simple the flu season.  The flu is much more prevalent during winter mos.   Why?  because temperature and humidity.. affects survivable ? on what In vivo?  or on surfaces?   Yes, on surfaces.

    This Covid has been demonstrated to survive up to 5-9 days on difference surfaces - that is much longer than 72 hours max of flu.

    Also, bacteria is quantitative.  You have to have a substantial load to get an infection.  You only need one virus.  So, I dont understand this load stuff.. Sure the higher the load the more chances - but if you get just one virus in your eye or mouth - I do not see how you are not infected.. I am not saying there are no front-line defenses ( SIgA ) that could potentially kill it.    But I think its rare - I think anything above 1 virus will get you sick.  I agree with the inoculation load and severity of illness.  1 takes time to reproduce to substantial counts vs - a huge load from someone coughing on your air.    The low innoculum amount from a surface will just give your immune system a good 2-3 day head start.  which could keep things from getting bad.  You still are sick.

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  • Mon, Jun 01, 2020 - 10:13am

    Jim H

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    Most definitive study yet on hydroxychloroquine prophylaxis just published in India

    The Truth will come out.

    https://drive.google.com/file/d/1e26FOJfF4akP7-aMQjE_BGxTHBjrgo1e/view

    The pivotal finding of our study was the noteworthy benefits of HCQ prophylaxis. It was identified that simply initiating HCQ prophylaxis did not reduce the odds of acquiring SARS-CoV-2 infection among HCWs. However, with the intake of four or more maintenance doses of HCQ, the protective effect started emerging, and in the adjusted multivariate model, a significant reduction (>80%) in the odds of SARS-CoV-2 infection in the HCWs was identified with the intake of six or more doses of HCQ prophylaxis. This dose-response relationship (Figure) added strength to the study outcomes.

    For those visual learners;

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  • Mon, Jun 01, 2020 - 10:19am

    nordicjack

    nordicjack

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    Posts: 522

    Dave I agree about options

    Logically, I see option 2 as the only option.  But in my heart know option one is the only option that will play out.   But it just goes to show about human nature.. as you say,  the sheeple follow the psychopaths.   Certainly wont find it the other way.

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  • Mon, Jun 01, 2020 - 10:23am

    nordicjack

    nordicjack

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    Posts: 522

    Jim - that is why I say we let the HCQ flow freely - OTC

    We would knock this sh&^& back.  and allow us time to save the economy, our life-styles and time for a proper vaccine.

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  • Mon, Jun 01, 2020 - 10:29am

    Jim H

    Status: Bronze Member

    Joined: Jun 08 2009

    Posts: 1161

    11+

    Regarding OTC...

    OTC may be a bridge too far... for now I would just like to see State and Federal entities getting out of the patient:Doctor relationship, as with any other prescription medication.  The efforts being made against doctors and pharmacists in the case of HCQ are unprecedented, unwarranted, and amount to a death sentence for many Covid-19 sufferers.  This is a crime against humanity and we need to expose it.

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  • Mon, Jun 01, 2020 - 10:37am

    summitday113

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    Indian Case Control study on HCQ prophylaxis in HCW:

    Abstract

    Background & objectives: Healthcare workers (HCWs) are at an elevated risk of contracting COVID-19.
    While intense occupational exposure associated with aerosol-generating procedures underlines the
    necessity of using personal protective equipment (PPE) by HCWs, high-transmission efficiency of the
    causative agent [severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2 (SARS-CoV-2)] could also lead to
    infections beyond such settings. Hydroxychloroquine (HCQ), a repurposed antimalarial drug, was
    empirically recommended as prophylaxis by the National COVID-19 Task Force in India to cover such
    added risk. Against this background, the current investigation was carried out to identify the factors
    associated with SARS-CoV-2 infection among HCWs in the country.
    Methods: A case-control design was adopted and participants were randomly drawn from the
    countrywide COVID-19 testing data portal maintained by the ICMR. The test results and contact details
    of HCWs, diagnosed as positive (cases) or negative (controls) for SARS-CoV-2 using real-time reverse
    transcription-polymerase chain reaction (qRT-PCR), were available from this database. A 20-item
    brief-questionnaire elicited information on place of work, procedures conducted and use of PPE.
    Results: Compared to controls, cases were slightly older (34.7 vs. 33.5 yr) and had more males
    (58 vs. 50%). In multivariate analyses, HCWs performing endotracheal intubation had higher odds of
    being SARS-CoV-2 infected [adjusted odds ratio (AOR): 4.33, 95% confidence interval (CI): 1.16-16.07].
    Consumption of four or more maintenance doses of HCQ was associated with a significant decline in the
    odds of getting infected (AOR: 0.44; 95% CI: 0.22-0.88); a dose-response relationship existed between
    frequency of exposure to HCQ and such reductions (χ2

    for trend=48.88; P<0.001). In addition, the use
    of PPE was independently associated with the reduction in odds of getting infected with SARS-CoV-2.

    J8ZnI7V7PsIndianJMedRes000-5413382_150213

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  • Mon, Jun 01, 2020 - 11:42am

    davefairtex

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    India's HCQ study - my takeaway

    If you can get 6 doses down, your chances of catching SC2 is cut by 80%.  This, for frontline healthcare workers.

    Likewise, "vitamins" seemed to help even more.  AZI actually seemed to increase risk.

    PPE: gloves and masks were also critical - a big reduction in infection, although not as large as taking HCQ.

    Biggest activity risk factors: "Not wearing PPE", conducting endotracheal intubation, as well as working in the ICU with suspected or confirmed cases on a ventilator.

    Housekeeping staff had the largest risk, as well as "being male".

    And of course nobody died from taking HCQ.  Side effects: not measurable (cases and controls had roughly similar instances of nausea, headaches, and diarrhoea).

    It's not an RCT, but - I can definitely see why India has told the WHO to get stuffed.

    Based on this, if I were a frontline worker, I'd be sucking down HCQ + vitamins - and definitely making sure to wear my mask and gloves, especially if I were working in an ICU and/or conducting those endotracheal intubations.

    Because - science!

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  • Mon, Jun 01, 2020 - 1:16pm

    Jim H

    Status: Bronze Member

    Joined: Jun 08 2009

    Posts: 1161

    8+

    SurgiFraud, part seven... or is it eight? I lost count...

    This twitter thread, from a Doctor who has published using data from Africa and thus knows firsthand the difficulties in acquiring it, is yet another epic take down of the clearly fraudulent data behind the Lancet study.  Read the whole thread of 15 tweets!

    https://twitter.com/JNJarvis76/status/1267072918623866880

    Here is a sampling;

     

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  • Mon, Jun 01, 2020 - 2:11pm

    Klaatu

    Klaatu

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    Posts: 31

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    Costa Rica

    Under 1000 cases, 10 fatalities?  Nothing to see here, folks; move along.

    I was visiting there a decade ago as an epidemic was developing, and they had the first fatalities in the W. Hemisphere, IIRC.  So they've been on alert, and probably not shy to try cheap, available solutions, especially in a tropical climate.

    Nothing like sitting two seats away from someone coughing on a plane to make you wish never to travel without masks in your carryon.

    My contacts in CR cite HCQ being used in prevention, couldn't find published confirmation of how when and where beyond what Chris has cited.

    Costa Rica, along with other mildly-infected countries, might want to open up their tourist industries ASAP.  But when will they want to allow US Americans?

    A recent article in Tico Times (English) says HCQ is being withdrawn from use there.  Pressure much?

    "That's a nice healthcare system you've got there.  Be a shame if something was to happen to it."

    Might I suspect that around the world, medical careers, appointments, awards and conferences operate at a very politicized level?

    The "NIH", meaning "not invented here", operates to prevent renegade solutions until, after an appropriate interval of forgetting, it can be discovered by "the right people."

    Just as mask-wearing can be rehabilitated -- too late for tens of thousands of lives lost -- when it is announced and promoted by the (same?) "right people."

    DJT gets something right for once, for himself obviously, and they choose that hill to die on?  Stupidity all around.

    Science is science.  No such thing as half-science. Being half as dumb as your Fox-watching neighbors?  Groupthink in an age of propaganda.

    Education has declined, yes; but it was probably never strong enough to overcome this intense an effort at control from the top.

    And to think, the country that landed men on the moon a half century ago can't shut down a person-to-person pandemic transmission.  Impressive!

     

     

     

     

     

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  • Mon, Jun 01, 2020 - 2:49pm

    gallantfarms

    Status: Member

    Joined: Jun 18 2009

    Posts: 56

    2+

    Mouth Wash Against Coronavirus?

    Like washing your hands...except in your throat.

    A new study published in the journal Function looked at the possibility of using commercially available mouthwash against COVID-19. 

    According to a previous study, mouthwash – aka oral rinses – can destroy bacteria by disrupting and dissolving the lipid shell that surrounds them.  

    Viruses, just like SARS-CoV-2 (which causes COVID-19), possess a similar lipid shell. 

    So, gargling with mouthwash could potentially inactivate coronavirus in the throat, helping to reduce the spread from coughs and sneezes. 

    https://nutritionandhealing.com/2020/06/01/covid-19-could-mouthwash/

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  • Mon, Jun 01, 2020 - 3:30pm

    nordicjack

    nordicjack

    Status: Bronze Member

    Joined: Feb 03 2020

    Posts: 522

    Mouthwash to reduce spread

    Makes a ton of sense to me - again on the hygiene I spoke about earlier.. But to educate people? How?  Perhaps advertising by makers of mouthwash.  with a price reduction because they will sell 8 times as much as normal.

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  • Mon, Jun 01, 2020 - 3:39pm

    nordicjack

    nordicjack

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    Joined: Feb 03 2020

    Posts: 522

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    Re Costa Rica

    If they are withdrawing HCQ.  Its simply because the US wrote them a check..!!

    The statement says the decision was based on new information ( US ) and recommendations from the WHO. ( US )

    however, in the article and statement:

    Costa Rica has used hydroxychloroquine in the past as a treatment for malaria, rheumatoid arthritis, and systemic lupus erythematosus. In those cases, the institution indicated that no serious side effects were generated.

    Utter political sh&^ show.

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  • Mon, Jun 01, 2020 - 3:59pm

    sofistek

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    Gloves

    gloves and masks were also critical

    I couldn't see what effect the gloves had and still don't understand the ways in which gloves might prevent infection, in either direction.

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  • Mon, Jun 01, 2020 - 4:10pm

    Klaatu

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    Get Off My Lawn (smile), or my Lancet?

    Thanks, Ision, for injecting Clint into this sagacious company.  I actually considered that for a moment as my handle.  Just an old dude with a bad attitude. 😉  No, not much different.  Now I drink my beer with the deer in my backyard, better company than the barfly locals.  Good moats make good neighbors.

    "100,000 COVID-19 patients including about 15,000 treated with the antimalarials,"

    This jumped out at me, as a question of whether even a number like 15,000 specifically verified CV19 patients would have been administered an as yet unapproved drug in a hospital setting, which these objectors are holding against, probably now with greater success, and yet claim has been tried so extensively.

    Even worldwide; if known to be a preventive, then those countries would not have passed it into their hospitals, IMO.  Why waste it?  Were any of these really "studies"?  Just not logical, at least at the scale they claim, or organized so quickly against such a recent virus?

    Correct me if wrong, but my quick reading of the subject said they got their "data" from online searches of medical data sites, not (?) from individual hospitals.  A few large "studies" might have gotten them numbers totaling close to 100,000 patients, but the inconsistencies between the study sources would disqualify any aggregation of wildly differing reports into one credible offering to the Lancet.

    Oh the fun we used to have in Physics lab, fudging the inputs when we knew the desired results.

    Remember, at first they were saying don't get it because the lupus and other people will be deprived.  Then the attacks really intensified.  And they did protest too much, to my nonclinical mind.  (Oh, and 3 out of 4 doctors in white lab coats recommend Marlboros. Really.)

    But the 15,000 treated with HCQ in hospital to begin with just doesn't sound plausible, whatever the timing of administration.  Just an interpolation, an abstraction from a few numbers they wanted to believe?

    Oh, and GET OFF MY LAWN!  There, I've had my say for today  😉 (P.S. I'm feeling better now. And you will, too, Chris, if you're ever feeling grumpy, you can shout it out across your huge new lawn, and no one will hear you!)

    (BTW, I think I've only been to the Ch. Gorge once, and I can't remember if that's where the skinny-dipping was; I know it was at the Green River in several places for sure, maybe at your old backyard?  Imagine now wearing the mask, and little else... 😉 )

     

     

     

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  • Mon, Jun 01, 2020 - 4:30pm

    Mpup

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    Reply to MM

    Thank you for this post.  Masks are harmful and ineffective, i.e. we don't have enough masks because we didn't plan.  HCQ is dangerous and ineffective, i.e. we don't yet have enough supply for the military, medical field, first responders, and public at large.   In the interim, agenda driven, false narratives, people die...and no one held accountable.  Yes we should all be very pissed.  This is criminal.

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  • Mon, Jun 01, 2020 - 4:37pm

    TamHob

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    Re gloves

    My experience as a long-term carer for my son was that the issue was hospital hand washing does terrible things to your hands. To maintain normal sanitation (before and after entering a room, before and after entering the toilet, before and after eating) required me as a visitor to wash at least 20 times a day. The doctors had it worst because they saw every patient on the ward and had to use it before and after each one. After a few months I started to develop cracked skin and dermatitis. Thankfully I got to go home before it progressed to the bleeding sores point. I don't think normal gloving/degloving is as good as washing or sanitising since it's so hard to do without contaminating the inside. However, it does save your hands and it's necessary if you do have open sores due to the hand washing.

    If wearing PPE, double gloving is necessary for proper doffing procedure in order to get a clean surface to manipulate things part way through. I suppose you theoretically could just wash your hands but there is the issue of fomite contamination of the paper drying towels and the skin issues if you do it a lot.

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  • Mon, Jun 01, 2020 - 4:40pm

    JWhite

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    Re: Risk from Touching Surfaces

    yagasjai - Thank you for posting these interesting articles.  For me personally, this information doesn't change my approach at all.  Everything that comes into the house is still treated as if it is contaminated, as well as surfaces (and people) that we encounter outside the house, and we act accordingly.....

    Also, where we're living, masks, hygiene measures and social distancing have been mandated by the government since the beginning of their cautious steps to re-open society, and this has worked out quite well so far.  Masks are compulsory indoors in every open establishment, and are optional outdoors.  The government has also been very good about communicating from the beginning, that the goal is to get, and keep, the Reproduction number at or below 1 to stop the exponential spread in number of cases, as well as to protect the ICU hospital units from becoming overwhelmed.  So far they have been able to achieve this, and in fact the hospitals have been able to accommodate some Coronavirus patients from other countries as a result.

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  • Mon, Jun 01, 2020 - 4:51pm

    Mpup

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    Mouthwash used by my dentist

    Last week I had a crown put on by my dentist.  It had been delayed well over a month because of the Covid.  They have a standard protocol that ALL patients gargle with mouthwash before being treated.  Not sure what it was, but almost certainly contained hydrogen peroxide.  Another simple, inexpensive,  and likely effective means of reducing the spread.

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  • Mon, Jun 01, 2020 - 5:46pm

    JWhite

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    Re: SurgiFraud

    Jim - the thread was quite interesting, and also the update he added afterwards with respect to the 437 African deaths in the original report (reference to Tweet 3):

    Joe Jarvis  @JNJarvis76
    UPDATE: In the revised table 3, modified in light of the errors in the Australian numbers, they now report 561 deaths in Africa (49% of the 1155 total reported to that time on the entire continent).....

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  • Mon, Jun 01, 2020 - 5:50pm

    summitday113

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    Newly published systematic review of studies on HCQ for COVID

    Conclusion:
    "Evidence on the benefits and harms of using hydroxychloroquine or chloroquine to treat COVID-19 is very weak and conflicting."

    Link here
    https://www.acpjournals.org/doi/10.7326/M20-2496

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  • Mon, Jun 01, 2020 - 8:04pm

    nordicjack

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    You cannot study the true effects of HCQ observationally.

    The effects we are looking for or believe to happen , is not observable.  You cannot prove a negative.   You can say what caused someone to die/   If they do not die .. what caused them to live?  You cannot perform a retrospective study on this type of effect.   The only way you can do this .. is give one group HCQ and another none - and challenge them both identically.    It can be done very simply in a study.. However, I have yet to see it done.   No one seems willing to do it.  Why?  because no one has people in an out-patient setting who is doing well, monitored for qt syndrome, blood work, or other issues.  medical records will not show when they are devoid of any such anomalies.   So for now, all you have is the empirical data from practitioners using it.  Who all say it works.. The only people saying it doesnt are doing observations of hospital dying patients.  I have yet to see a real study of prophylaxis use..... because you wont see them in the hospital going "we are dying.. we are sick.. we took HCQ as a prophylactic".  ( so there a no medical records to follow or review )  You dont review the medical records of well people.   And if you did, there would be nothing to use.  It would be excluded.    You have to do a controlled random sample.  I have not seen a single study of this design for HCQ.

    So the systematic review, is just noting there is nothing you could possibly conclude by doing it the way they are wanting and doing it.  Its garbage sceince.  Its obvious to us.. hence this thread.

    PS I do not count prolonged QT syndrome as a dangerous side-effect.   Many drugs cause this and no one said hey lets stop them.. In fact many of psychiatric drugs cause this as does zpak.    And with all most of those, no one says hey this is dangerous  - too dangerous to use for a disease that is not killing you.

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  • Mon, Jun 01, 2020 - 9:30pm

    davefairtex

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    gloves

    Sofistek-

    The HCQ was given to front line healthcare workers.  Apparently, when working in that job, its a good idea to wear gloves.  Failure to wear any PPE at all when doing that job - very dangerous.

    So if you - personally - are taking care of someone who is sick, possibly with COVID-19, its a good idea to wear gloves.  That's what the study shows.  Or if you are cleaning up their room.

    Otherwise, if you are just a normal person with normal risk, I'd guess that gloves might not be something you personally need to do.

    However, the prophylaxis effect of HCQ would still apply to you.  It might be even greater, percentage-wise, since you have a lower exposure profile.

    If HCQ can protect people with high exposure, it can probably do even better for those whose exposures aren't as serious.

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  • Mon, Jun 01, 2020 - 10:23pm

    sofistek

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    Gloves continued

    I get what TamHob says about the effect on the hands of washing continually, so gloves could help there and perhaps just wash the gloves not the hands. To DaveFairtex, I saw that the study mentioned gloves and documented the amount of glove wearing but I didn't see anything which suggested how gloves could protect from SARS-Cov-2. The only reason I've seen so far that is plausible is if you have cuts on your hands, then gloves prevent those cuts being a route for the infection to enter. As Chris has said several times, the virus doesn't enter through the skin and the only reason to not touch your face is to avoid touching the areas where the virus can enter (eyes, nose, mouth). However, there may be something I'm missing here.

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  • Tue, Jun 02, 2020 - 1:01am

    TamHob

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    using gloves when out and about in the community

    Yeah, general community use seems a bit puzzling and wasteful. Unless you are donning correctly then they don't protect anyone from what's on your hands and doffing similarly needs to be done correctly to protect yourself. Having seen it done, probably far fewer people could do it right than can wear a mask correctly, especially if arthritic.

    Also, even if you are putting the gloves on and off correctly, if they get contaminated they will stay contaminated and spread the virions around until you take them off. Whereas a healthy skin ecology will clear the particles pretty quickly even without washing or sanitising, though frustratingly I couldn't find much comparison research eg https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/22264744/ and none on Covid-19.

    So I reckon they only make sense for very short tasks in situations where hand washing is impracticable and sanitiser is not provided (noting I have not yet been able to work out how to use a personal pack of sanitiser without handling the outside). Maybe something like pumping fuel? Seems minimal benefit though. If I want to remind myself not to touch my face I'm wearing scratchy wool gloves.

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  • Tue, Jun 02, 2020 - 1:25am

    French connexion

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    Nordicjack

    I enjoy your logic. I just add why not "observe" what happens to patients who suffer from disease for which HCQ is used to control said disease and see statistically if they have "in their population" fewer cases of COVID-19? It is true that if proof is what you are looking for - you will need some people who are willing to play Russian roulette with their health. The dilemma is that once you pass the 5 first days of infection - you are no longer under control of your own destiny - health wise. Will your immune system work well-enough on its own?

    Another way of attacking our "proof" problem is to have a study where healthy people with comorbidities are given HCQ - and others not - to see if their are side-effects for the dosage and duration desired. I take beta-blockers and tension reducing pills - plus a blood thinner. When I am seated and nicely relaxed by heart beats at 40 pulses per minute with a low blood pressure. Dr Raoult has said that it is the medication which puts people like me in danger for SarsCoV2. He recognizes that age and heart medication are the two groups who HCQ+AZ  did not shake their viral load after 10 days of treatment.

    All that to say - I would be willing to test HCQ according to a protective protocol usage (or blind test), but there is no way I am getting on an airplane until a prophylaxis is readily available. Anyone in the hotel business reading this? Do you hear me President Trump?

    There was supposed to be a study from Montpellier released along these lines - but because of the Lanset fiasco, our health Minister ordered all studies closed on HCQ.

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  • Tue, Jun 02, 2020 - 2:58am

    sofistek

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    Sanitiser

    TamHob, good points on the gloves. As far as sanitiser goes, I use a small bottle with a push dispenser lid. If I've only contaminated one hand, I use the other to dispense, where possible. Otherwise, I dispense enough to smother the bottle and then do my hands.

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  • Tue, Jun 02, 2020 - 8:21am

    nordicjack

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    After my review of the world's new take on HCQ - its coffin is nailed shut

    It appears , that the powers that be has nailed coffin shut on HCQ - you wont even get a clinical trial , in-patient or anything.    Its hard to believe they could take a drug used so long without any cardiac warnings, without any reports of cardiac deaths - including use for conditions that dont kill you,  and make it dangerous all of sudden for disease that will kill you.   GOOD JOB USA.  I say let the riots start.. and continue and increase. Let the USA govt burn to the ground for ever and ever.      A lot of death is coming. Needless death.  I for one , if still around, will hold all these people accountable if still alive , when the new govt is in control.

    You have first responders, police ( india  -no deaths for treated vs 10s of deaths for untreated) , firefighters ( US ), medical staff ( india ) taking this as a prophylactic with no one dying - the only people dying are people on vents with cardiac issues ( previous ) dying from a disease that causes cardiac issues.   BUT ITS THE F"NG drug killing them..

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  • Tue, Jun 02, 2020 - 9:16am

    yagasjai

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    Quercetin and Zinc does the same thing as HCQ

    Per post #99 above the interview with Dr. Zelenko says that Quercetin with Zinc does the same thing as HCQ. No prescription needed. If I remember correctly, quercetin is found in elderberry, as Chris has so frequently recommended.

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  • Tue, Jun 02, 2020 - 10:03am

    Tony

    Tony

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    Replying to Quercetin and Zinc does the same thing as HCQ (#127)

    You can also find Quercetin in tablets : https://www.amazon.fr/s?k=quecetin

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  • Tue, Jun 02, 2020 - 10:18am

    nordicjack

    nordicjack

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    Quercetin

    Quercetin should be a part of any kind of infectious process therapy.  The question is really what is a therapeutic dose?

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  • Tue, Jun 02, 2020 - 10:34am

    nordicjack

    nordicjack

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    Reply - to French Conn - about studies

    I believe, HCQ was first investigated as a candidate for therapy because it was observed by the chinese in wuhan that people on the drug ( who were in wards at the hospital ) seemed to fair out much better than others who contracted it in the hospital.   So, this type of observation was the basis for its original introduction.

    The thing I would like to see is a direct challenge.. use a controlled population - US military would be great ( all should be of similar and normal stature , physique, fitness, age and diet. )   I was in the US military , and one thing you learn is you are property and you are expendable.    They are allowed to do experiments with you. and should in these instances ( within reason ) I bet there are many that would volunteer for the better good for our country. That is why they are there in the first place.   take about 1000 of them and challenge them with the virus.. they all get the virus the same time - from the same source.. same concentration and viral load.  heck they do this in basic training with the "cold pill"  its a coronvirus they give to all newbies.. at the same time..    Then track the two or three groups.. and you cannot only track for death  but for symptoms and severeness.   Done Done.

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  • Tue, Jun 02, 2020 - 10:46am

    Jim H

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    SurgiFraud getting more attention.. take those nails out of the HCQ coffin

    For those of you who don't know the context of this, Surgisphere had published something related to Covid-19 unrelated to HCQ earlier in the NEJM purporting to be based on a smaller, earlier version of the same magic database.   NEJM to Lancet, NEJM to Lancet.. hello.. hello.. are you there?  Can you hear us?

    https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMe2020822?query=featured_home
    Expression of Concern: Mehra MR et al. Cardiovascular Disease, Drug Therapy, and Mortality in Covid-19. N Engl J Med. DOI: 10.1056/NEJMoa2007621.
    List of authors.

    • Eric J. Rubin, M.D., Ph.D.

    n May 1, 2020, we published “Cardiovascular Disease, Drug Therapy, and Mortality in Covid-19,”1 a study of the effect of preexisting treatment with angiotensin-converting enzyme (ACE) inhibitors and angiotensin-receptor blockers (ARBs) on Covid-19. This retrospective study used data drawn from an international database that included electronic health records from 169 hospitals on three continents. Recently, substantive concerns have been raised about the quality of the information in that database. We have asked the authors to provide evidence that the data are reliable. In the interim and for the benefit of our readers, we are publishing this Expression of Concern about the reliability of their conclusions.

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  • Tue, Jun 02, 2020 - 10:56am

    davefairtex

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    ordered, but forgotten

    yagasjai-

    Thanks for reminding me why I ordered that Quercetin.  I saw that Seheult video a while back and promptly ordered some, but the delay between order and arrival was just long enough that I forgot why it was I actually ordered it.  🙂

    A poor-man's zinc ionophore.  Fantastic.  I should put some masking tape with hand-written instructions on the bottle.  "Zinc ionophore.  Use (with zinc) in case of SC2 infection."

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  • Tue, Jun 02, 2020 - 10:59am

    nordicjack

    nordicjack

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    Nice Find...... ON surgisfraud - one nail removed

    I understand that "the Lancet"  published something regarding the safety of HCQ several years ago.. ( which showed it is safe )  I am unable to source it.

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  • Tue, Jun 02, 2020 - 11:02am

    Daddy-O McDadstein

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    NordicJack: Quercetin dose question

    Hey, Nordic,

    I watched a MedCram video in which Dr. Seheult covered the use of both HCQ and quercetin in either China or Hong Kong (I forget which) during either the SARS outbreak some years ago or in  the H1N1 epidemic. Whichever it was, the medicos found that both worked against the virus in question. The therapeutic doses of quercetin--and this is well into the onset of symptoms--was from 3 to 7 grams. 3000 to 7000mg. Dr Seheult commented that that seemed like a lot, but this isn't a drug. Natural supplements are like that. You have to take more to get the effect of a chemical drug.

    I'm taking 500mg daily as prophylaxis along with zinc. I'm also taking in tonic water (yeah, with gin and lime) for the quinine, which HCQ is sort of a chemical analogue of.

    Tasty and refreshing and very calming in the face of all the stuff going on. Dive in.

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  • Tue, Jun 02, 2020 - 12:09pm

    DaveDD

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    Quercitine etc

    Hi all,

    Quercitine and ECGC (green tea) are both weak ionophores. I bought kinabast, the bark used to make quinine as TPTB do not allow me to buy HCQ. I used 2 grams per day to make 4 cups of tea (boil 10 minutes, let it cool 10 minutes, then pour it into glass jar or bottle).  I took it together with zinc (25mg per day). Symptoms disappeared after 3 days. Took same dose another 4 days. Now I’m reducing the dosis to 2 cups per day.

    During the day also drank green tea and oregano tea (from wild oregano). This is both antiviral and a weak antibiotic. In my case vitamine C helped to reduce symptoms, but I was not able to fight it off. Now I feel way better than the last 7 weeks!

    Kinabast is relatively cheap, but you have to make sure not to overdose: 4 grams max per day, i used 2 grams max, and, no more than 0.5 grams per cup.

    Take care!

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  • Tue, Jun 02, 2020 - 12:23pm

    nordicjack

    nordicjack

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    Regarding other options to HCQ and quercitine

    Sodium bicarb is a mineral inophore.. Not sure if its selective or not. or if works with zinc but does work for other minerals.   Cinchona ( kinabast) bark tea, has several other alkaloids, all equally as effective against malaria as HCQ.

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  • Tue, Jun 02, 2020 - 12:54pm

    davefairtex

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    well that's useful!

    DaveDD-

    Well.  That's really useful!  My forays into this stuff are all academic at this point since I don't actually have a current "situation".  I've filed your account away, to be dragged out in the event I run into difficulty.  I have a chinese medicine shop about a block away.  I'm guessing I just need to know the Chinese name for kinabast and Bob will be my Uncle.

    Super cool story.  Survival of the fittest and all.

    I mean, if I were really fit, I'd order some kinabast...

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  • Tue, Jun 02, 2020 - 1:06pm

    Susan7

    Susan7

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    Cinchona bark

    I got my bag last week. Steeped about a heaping tablespoon for 30” . Oh MY! Never tasted anything so bad! Turns out a half teaspoon is all I should have used. But it was definitely a quinine taste so I’m saving it for The infection. I also have the tincture form but I don’t know what to do with it. It would just be all so much simpler if I had 10 tabs of chloroquine.

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  • Tue, Jun 02, 2020 - 1:29pm

    vshelford

    vshelford

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    Nordicjack re Lancet article re HCQ safety

    Is this the one you were looking for (from 2003)?

    https://www.thelancet.com/journals/laninf/article/PIIS1473-3099(03)00806-5/fulltext?fbclid=IwAR0LTG0U0zvEWA1C5cPq9nmJb0oPejBxmoycvcrSC3imIl1W2Z3ITJqWJgU

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  • Tue, Jun 02, 2020 - 1:47pm

    Mohammed Mast

    Mohammed Mast

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    Cinchona

    Well boy fucking howdy. Cinchona is also used to treat DRUM ROLL please ARRHYTHMIAS.

    OKAY Doc forget the HCQ because it causes heart problems just give me the fucking Chinchona bark. Back atya Fauci.

    https://www.webmd.com/vitamins/ai/ingredientmono-406/cinchona#:~:text=Cinchona%20is%20a%20tree.,varicose%20veins%2C%20and%20leg%20cramps.

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  • Tue, Jun 02, 2020 - 1:52pm

    Jana Ward

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    Our Quercetin / Zinc Dose

    I was pleased to see the Dr. Seheult video for the first time today. It put some reason and clarity to questions I had about the Quercetin / Zinc combo.  I appreciated that he said that the zinc is not necessarily what mg os on the front of the bottle and one must actually look at the elemental quantity to equal 50 mg.  Our #s are 1000 mg quercetin and now a true 50 mg zinc.  We also enjoy a Tonic Water chaser for our anti-covid cocktail!  I was thrilled to realize that it possibly functions as a prophylaxis.  We've been taking it for a month now.

    I've been following PP since early February. I think watching it and becoming aware has saved our lives.  We wore masks before they were trending and people thought we were over-reacting and weird. (I bought them before they became unavailable + made many that I line with N95s or surgical masks - along with stocking our cupboards, planting our new veggie garden, stocking our vitamins to last a year, and isolating our senior-citizen-selves.)  We are very grateful.

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  • Tue, Jun 02, 2020 - 2:11pm

    French connexion

    French connexion

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    Poor old Fauci - this thing just doesn't want to go away

    That's great news - Cinchona - not on anyone's radar (yet).

    Dr Raoult is tweeting again after our long weekend: Harvey Risch - reference from Yale

    https://academic.oup.com/aje/advance-article/doi/10.1093/aje/kwaa093/5847586

    Too bad that you guys don't speak French because Didier is quite funny.

    https://t.co/YmpJFeHpKw?amp=1

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  • Tue, Jun 02, 2020 - 2:58pm

    summitday113

    summitday113

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    Lancet Walking Back HCQ sttudy?

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  • Tue, Jun 02, 2020 - 3:33pm

    DaveDD

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    About Kinabast chinchona

    Hi all,

    As I was kind of desperate I tried it. I could not find any paper about it being an ionophore, only suggestions that it might be. Because CQ and HCQ the synthetic brethren of quinine, one of the components of chinchona, I thought it could work.

    The same precautions that one needs to take with QC and HQC are of course valid. Check out the link posted by Mohammed Mast (source) for some cautionary information and background. Btw: Mohammed Mast is right, some compounds are used to treat arrythmia; also nice (plus risky for people using bloodthinners), it makes bloodclothing more difficult.

    Plus: it reduces fever, but get not fooled by this. I found that in my case rest (lying down, not sitting) was really important.

    @Susan7 and others: a teaspoon of the bark is 2 grams! Enough for 4 doses (=tea cups) it is advised not to exceed 0.5 grams per dosis, and maximal dose is 4 grams per day. 

    Concerning the taste: I kinda like it (now). I will get tested later this week, so I’ll have some confirmation if it worked, because I’m 100% sure I had it. I’ll let you know what the result is: N=1 is a start right?

    Take care!

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  • Tue, Jun 02, 2020 - 3:36pm

    DaveDD

    DaveDD

    Status: Bronze Member

    Joined: Sep 08 2019

    Posts: 150

    Can you post the link?

    Hi summitday113,

    Great find! But can you post the link? I cannot read the article because it is really blurry.

    Thanks!

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  • Tue, Jun 02, 2020 - 4:09pm

    Daddy-O McDadstein

    Daddy-O McDadstein

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    Joined: Apr 11 2020

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    2+

    Soda and Spanish Flu

    The mention of bicarbonate of soda reminded me of a documentary about the Spanish Influenza in Alabama. The elderly lady being interviewed said that her mother made the kids drink a teaspoon of bicarb in water every morning. She told them that it "balanced" their bodies or something like that. None of her family got sick, and they worked hard to make food for stricken families. My mom would sometimes make me drink it, but not for flu. Anyhow, the lady in the documentary said that pretty much every household in her town had someone sick in it. Lots of backyard burials and all. So the soda may do the trick on the cheap. Worth considering.

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  • Tue, Jun 02, 2020 - 8:23pm

    sofistek

    Status: Platinum Member

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    Posts: 712

    SARS-Cov-2 becoming less lethal?

    In Chris's latest video, he ponders whether the virus is becoming less lethal, though pours cold water on the idea that it's going away.

    From the Worldometers web site, it looks like the daily number of cases is on the climb (so it's not losing infectiousness, so probably hasn't lost the furin clevage site) but the daily death toll does seem to be on the decline.

    It would be great if it did degrade into something that was only as deadly as the flu. That seems like it might be one of the possible trajectories.

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  • Tue, Jun 02, 2020 - 10:52pm

    nordicjack

    nordicjack

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    Sars cov2 - how could that happen.. ? I dont think its functionally mutated?

    Without a substantial treatment protocol that is proven - how do you account for less lethality?

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  • Tue, Jun 02, 2020 - 11:59pm

    DaveDD

    DaveDD

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    Change in lethality?

    Hi sofistek & nordicjack,

    I thought about that a lot lately. I could be that there is a seasonal influence: lockdown + summer might help. That leaves Brazil to be explained of course. Could it be that, due to the Brazilian president, actions were taken very late there, leading to belated self-quarentine and lockdown, i.e., staying indoors, less exposure to the sun. A couple of hours in the sun will lead to tens of thousands IU vitamine D. Additionally, UV will kill the virus: if there is exposure outdoors, the viral load will be tiny.

    On the other hand: I do not agree with the current “second wave” interpretation. A flare-up now is basically still part of the first wave, “just” a reoccurrence. The same virus is still there. When you look at the Spanish flu however, there was really a lull in infections during the summer. The second wave started in September/October, totally wreaking havoc, most likely because the second wave virus was a mutated version.

    Because of that I bought enough supplements (I will add sodium carbonate) for our family and friends to carry us through autumn, winter and spring.  I hope that we do not need it. But as it is a European habit to visit other countries during the summer, I think that the possibility of exposing oneself, and therefor others, to (slightly) different versions of the virus is 100%. I think that the current statements about reduced lethality is wishful thinking: it is imo too early to tell.

    We will enjoy our summer, and soak up the sun in the Netherlands. I hope you have the opportunity too to enjoy peaceful moments outside!

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  • Wed, Jun 03, 2020 - 12:10am

    nordicjack

    nordicjack

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    perhaps its just all we are doing that has an impact on the lethalality

    I mean we are doing a lot of social distancing - covering of face,  less facial touching etc. people in general may be more observant of healthful actions.    If innoculum quantity does effect out-come , our actions  - could lower transmission, and lower virulence together.    It is possible also , as we do this, the people who have less severe symptoms or disease, do not readily pass the deadliest form.  basically if you get sick from someone with a mild case - you are more likely to have a mild case.  I know there is no evidence - but after so many generations of the virus spreading while keeping mild it may no longer be severe form.    hard to quantify but its theory.

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  • Wed, Jun 03, 2020 - 5:07am

    US Strength

    US Strength

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    2+

    Is anyone collecting data on potential role of new mammalian cell-based flu shots in level of severity of COVID-19?

    Surely some governmental agency, research institute or curious individual is examining whether the level of severity of COVID19 in Europe is, in any way(or not), associated with the release of the new mammalian cell-based quadrivalent influenza vaccine (QIVc) that was made available in Europe for the 2019/2020 flu season.

    Seems to me that a lot of the most severely affected are those in the groups (elderly, co-morbidities) most likely to have been early recipients of this new style of vaccine.

    Just another box to tick on an ICU admissions form might help to shed some light on this.

     

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  • Wed, Jun 03, 2020 - 10:16am

    Jim H

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    Posts: 1161

    4+

    SurgiFraud, the continuing story

    From James Todaro, MD's Twitter feed this morning;

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  • Wed, Jun 03, 2020 - 12:08pm

    davefairtex

    Status: Member

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    Posts: 2075

    6+

    SurgiFraud - MSM on board - The Guardian

    Some real hummers in this article.  We knew a lot of this - but this is now in the Guardian, so it has the imprimatur of respectability to it.

    ----------------

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/jun/03/covid-19-surgisphere-who-world-health-organization-hydroxychloroquine

    • A search of publicly available material suggests several of Surgisphere’s employees have little or no data or scientific background. An employee listed as a science editor appears to be a science fiction author and fantasy artist. Another employee listed as a marketing executive is an adult model and events hostess.
    • The company’s LinkedIn page has fewer than 100 followers and last week listed just six employees. This was changed to three employees as of Wednesday.
    • While Surgisphere claims to run one of the largest and fastest hospital databases in the world, it has almost no online presence. Its Twitter handle has fewer than 170 followers, with no posts between October 2017 and March 2020.
    • Until Monday, the get in touch” link on Surgisphere’s homepage redirected to a WordPress template for a cryptocurrency website, raising questions about how hospitals could easily contact the company to join its database.
    • Desai has been named in three medical malpractice suits, unrelated to the Surgisphere database. In an interview with the Scientist, Desai previously described the allegations as “unfounded”.
    • In 2008, Desai launched a crowdfunding campaign on the website indiegogo promoting a wearable “next generation human augmentation device that can help you achieve what you never thought was possible”. The device never came to fruition.
    • Desai’s Wikipedia page has been deleted following questions about Surgisphere and his history.

    ----------------------

    "It's not the crime that gets you.  It's the coverup."

    And sometimes its the crime too, when things are egregious enough.

    They must have been absolutely desperate.

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  • Wed, Jun 03, 2020 - 2:09pm

    Jim H

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    3+

    Paging Dr. Bruce... paging Dr. Bruce.. interesting HCQ chemistry findings from China...

    This is really, really good work.  In vitro, but probably meaningful given all that we know so far;

    https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.05.26.114033v2.full.pdf

    Conclusion and recommendations for future work Our data clearly indicated that R- and S-enantiomer of CQ and HCQ exhibited significantly different properties against SARS-CoV-2. This is the first time that the enantioselective antiviral activities of CQ and HCQ against SARS-CoV-2 have been demonstrated in vitro. The Senantiomers of both CQ and HCQ, proved to be 27% and 60% more active than their corresponding
    R-enantiomers.  Since we have demonstrated the in vitro antiviral activities mainly derived from the S-isomer, it is reasonable to expect the drug dose can be decreased to half of that or even less than the racemates for a similar antiviral effect, while eliminating the untoward side effects brought upon by the Risomer. Moreover, our data showed a more significant difference in antiviral activity between two enantiomers of HCQ as compared to CQ. Taken all these together with previous studies on malaria, HIV, and human pharmacokinetic data implicating greater ocular accumulation of R-isomers, we opine a clear preference for the further development of S-HCQ as an enantiomerically pure drug for treating COVID-9 within this compound class.

    In summary, we have demonstrated unequivocally a pronounced difference in antiviral activities of enantiomers of CQ and HCQ. Racemate CQ or HCQ would be less preferred for COVID-19 applications unless shown to be so by further pharmacological testing. With the prospect of reducing or eliminating adverse effects attributed to the presence of R-HCQ, we strongly recommend further studies especially human clinical trials be conducted with pure S-HCQ, constituting the most expedient and highly probable way to double the therapeutic index of HCQ.

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  • Wed, Jun 03, 2020 - 3:56pm

    green_achers

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    New study: HCQ "No more effective than placebo." (Includes Zinc)

    Couldn't find a more recent post, so I'm putting this here. Published today by Reuters and sent to me by a friend that I've been having a friendly debate with. Hope Chris will look into the data when it is published. Takeaways: 1) HCQ studied as prophylactic, not early onset as far as I can tell; 2) No harmful side effects seen.; 3) No significant benefit as preventative; 4) Zinc was included in about 20% of cases.

    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-hydroxychloroquine-idUSKBN23A34F?fbclid=IwAR2iAbqRv1GmnBKFhYEJZrwRXGT46XJE8UHAFIlLNE5aSZU2EWI87qmqAeM

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  • Wed, Jun 03, 2020 - 4:08pm

    drbrucedale

    drbrucedale

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    Posts: 103

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    Isomers of HCQ

    Yup, this is interesting. If optically pure forms of HCQ can be made inexpensively, it would make an effective dose even smaller (and thereby even safer). And it "feels" right that there should be a difference in the biological activity of different isomers.  Cool!!

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  • Wed, Jun 03, 2020 - 6:02pm

    dreinmund

    dreinmund

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    Where’s the zinc ?

    I looked through the fully published study online. I could not find zinc mentioned a single time. Am I missing something ?

    https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2016638

     

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  • Wed, Jun 03, 2020 - 7:03pm

    green_achers

    green_achers

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    Posts: 46

    green_achers said:

    Thanks for the link. I was going off of the Reuters story. I'll check it out.

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  • Wed, Jun 03, 2020 - 7:11pm

    green_achers

    green_achers

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    green_achers said:

    Table S-8 in the Appendix. I would like to know why there was no discussion of it in the paper.

    https://www.nejm.org/doi/suppl/10.1056/NEJMoa2016638/suppl_file/nejmoa2016638_appendix.pdf

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  • Wed, Jun 03, 2020 - 7:18pm

    Jim H

    Status: Bronze Member

    Joined: Jun 08 2009

    Posts: 1161

    2+

    Zinc and U of M paper...

    I saw an interview of Boulware published today.. he is asked about the Zinc, and if I recall correctly his answer was that about 20% of participants in both groups were taking a supplement, and that they fared no better than those not taking supplements.  It seems we know nothing of actual blood levels, level or type of supplement, etc.  The subject signed up via internet so they were one step removed from the Doc.

    This study wears the moniker of RCT but otherwise it's not so great...

     

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fo5p-8D0fEo

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  • Wed, Jun 03, 2020 - 7:42pm

    sofistek

    Status: Platinum Member

    Joined: Oct 02 2008

    Posts: 712

    Asymptomatic

    Interesting article about aysmptomatic carriers. We still don't have solid figures (and may never have) but most studies put the percentage of asymptomatic cases at over 40%. However, given that such studies are over a limited time, it seems that it might be impossible to know how many asymptomatic cases there have been. That said, it looks like many asymptomatic cases don't develop anti-bodies (their immune system didn't seem to need to mount a response) so could become infected many times. Looks like many could also be shedding the virus.

    What do we make of this?

    Edit: An afterthought. If, in some cases, the body doesn't mount an immune response, how does the virus ever go away? In the article, the featured asymptomatic patient eventually tested negative at around the time her symptomatic husband did.

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  • Wed, Jun 03, 2020 - 11:50pm

    TamHob

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    Re asymptomatic

    I think the innate immune response system (stronger in kids) doesn't rely on antibodies. Antibodies are part of the adaptive system. https://microbiologyinfo.com/difference-between-innate-and-adaptive-immunity/

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  • Thu, Jun 04, 2020 - 12:53am

    stevedaly

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    Where did the funding come from?

    Funding of record was from the William Harvey Distinguished Chair in Advanced Cardiovascular Medicine at Brigham and Women's Hospital (Boston, MA, USA).  Lead researcher of the retrospective survey was Mandeep R. Mehra, who "reports personal fees from Abbott, Medtronic [pacemakers], Janssen, Mesoblast, Portola, Bayer, Baim Institute for Clinical Research, NupulseCV, FineHeart, Leviticus, Roivant, and Triple Gene."  According to Wikipedia, Dr. Mehra "is the founding medical director of the Brigham Heart and Vascular Center (2012-2019) in BostonMassachusetts...

    "Brigham and Women's Hospital (BWH) is the second largest teaching hospital of Harvard Medical School and the largest hospital in the Longwood Medical Area in Boston, Massachusetts. Along with Massachusetts General Hospital, it is one of the two founding members of Partners HealthCare, the largest healthcare provider in Massachusetts. Elizabeth Nabel serves as the hospital's current President."  Mehra is a graduate of the Mohatma Ghandi Institute of Medical Science (at the young age of 15 or 16?) with additional studies in the U. S., but no additional degrees I could find.

    Dr. William R. Harvey, in whose name the distinguished chair may have been established, was a doctoral graduate of Harvard and President of Hampton University for 40 years.

    Dr. Nabel did a stint with NIH from 2005 to 2009 and was later involved in the controversy of whether NFL expert medical profession advisers were covering for the NFL in the brain injury investigations.

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  • Thu, Jun 04, 2020 - 2:31am

    Dutch Boomer

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    Re: Asymptomatic

    In Holland the positive-tested total cases is at this moment 0,27% of the population. These are people that were tested after getting sick (you need to present symptons to get tested)

    Yesterday the bloodbank announced that at this moment 5,5% of all donors present antibodies. This would mean that about 95% of all cases would be a-symptomatic.

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  • Thu, Jun 04, 2020 - 4:32am

    The Apostate

    The Apostate

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    HCQ Randomized, double blind, placebo controlled trial

    Hey folks, a new thing to deatomise, someone poke Chris so he can see this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fewIzF1VRTo, to me it doesnt make sense that Cvit should increase the risk of disease, its either Boltzman brain or possibly fake

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  • Thu, Jun 04, 2020 - 5:07am

    nordicjack

    nordicjack

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    Dutch - asymptomatic

    They have found the antibody test to be mostly useless - it can cause false positives - it additionally can be sensitive to any other coronvirus.  ie.. if someone has had the cold virus in the last 1- 2 years.    5.5% means nothing.. I would not draw conclusion from this.  Not saying it wont be done - its just not good science.

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  • Thu, Jun 04, 2020 - 5:15am

    nordicjack

    nordicjack

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    Re new HCQ study

    As a prophylactic, it probably doesnt work.  I think people in high risk are taking it because the risk of not knowing whether you have it ( asymptomatic )     Not to really keep from getting the disease but getting severe.  So again bad science.   The Indians did a study with their police who were taking as prophylactic.   They did get sick - the difference between the control not taking and the group taking - was not if they got sick - was that several in the control died - and none taking ddid..  its prophylactic that way.. not - that you wont get sick.. That would be really far fetched sceince.     Further , I do not buy all this asymptomatic - its more presymptomatic and mild cases

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  • Thu, Jun 04, 2020 - 5:32am

    The Apostate

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    turns out im full blown autist

    Dammit i was under impression they didnt mean it only propylactic way, next time ill try to not skip a quarter of the video :d Well then its understandable, almost.. I mean i do imagine it in a way like shutting infection early but seems it passes through and evolves to lesser extend still

    oh media still could either not get it, or be misinterpreting it for the sake of some eyecatching headlines

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  • Thu, Jun 04, 2020 - 5:46am

    JWhite

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    Re: Where did the funding come from?

    Just wanted to clarify that Mandeep Mehra (lead author of the Lancet paper) is the  William Harvey Distinguished Chair in Advanced Cardiovascular Medicine at Brigham and Women’s Hospital (since April 2018) according to his LinkedIn profile.  This would indicate that he funded the study.

    Please see also post #68 re: funding.

    Thanks for the background info  on his education - quite interesting.....

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  • Thu, Jun 04, 2020 - 6:02am

    High Desert

    High Desert

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    Good article about this on RT news

    As always, Chris was ahead of the curve on this. Now the fraud is being uncovered. This article just appeared on RT news:
    Rush to trash hydroxychloroquine based on faulty Surgisphere data exposes fundamental flaws in profit-based medical ‘science’
    https://www.rt.com/news/490734-hydroxychloroquine-faulty-data-science-flaw/

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  • Thu, Jun 04, 2020 - 9:11am

    stevedaly

    stevedaly

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    More information on Dr. Mehra's education

    Dr. Mehra graduated from the Mahatma Ghandi Institute of Medical Sciences in 1983.

    https://www.mgims.ac.in/index.php/dr-mandeep-mehra

    Wikipedia lists his birth date as December 1967.  His physician directory lists his medical degree was obtained from the Mohatma Ghandi Institute and his residency in internal medicine was from Mount Carmel Medical Center.

    https://physiciandirectory.brighamandwomens.org/details/815/mandeep-mehra-cardiovascular_medicine-heart_transplant-boston

     

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  • Thu, Jun 04, 2020 - 8:33pm

    gamma1

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    withdrawn

    I'm glad the paper was withdrawn

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