Zeitgeist

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signalfire's picture
signalfire
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Zeitgeist

[Ed. note:  We moved this thread over from Chris' Blog entitled "Christmas Eve Taxpayer Massacre"....the post below begins with the potential merits of the Zeitgeist movie and movement which, it seems to us (although we may not be the most conversant), to spark some elements of religious and conspiracy theory emotions in some others.  While we endeavor to not take a position on such things here, and neither recommend nor condemn zeitgeist, we understand the importance of the topics and will only relegate them to the 'controversial topics' area if they turn out to erupt into raw, emotional topics on the part of several participants (so that we do not allow any single person to controll what lands where due to their particualr biases).  We're watching this one....please play nice]

Nope, an infomercial will not work. The masses have the information clearly available to them if they want to step out of their comfort zones. They don't care and they will not care until there is no food in the stores.  The powers that control the media will not allow it in any event. That's what 'expensive' means.. Tens of thousands of dollars have been spent on ads and nothing changes. The wars and outright thievery by a certain class continues.

The Revolutionary War was reportedly won with only ~20% of the people of the time even agreeing to the points of contention; most people were out of touch communication wise; almost all were just trying to survive another day. Only a few landowners and malcontents actually sat down and discussed the issues and decided to 'hang separately or together'...

There is another way and it is gaining momentum as we speak: Zeitgeist. I encourage everyone to take a look at Zeitgeist.com;  there is a movie that first appeared about 2 years ago and has now gone viral with over 50 million views worldwide and over 200 local and international chapters; an Addendum that focuses on where to go next, and some stunningly prescient and revolutionary (in a peaceful sense) videos and PDF files of information to read, think and reflect upon. I've been doing research into this now for several months and I'm finding it hard to come up with counterpoints to convince myself 'it can't work...'    It's a new system of a resource based economy and ultimately wants to do away with money and jobs per se. Yeah, I know.  Hard to fathom.  But the present system has PROVEN itself corrupt, bereft of new ideas other than new scams, and lacking in the most fundamental understanding of math and sustainability on a finite planet.

Thank you Chris for all you do.  I  hope you investigate Zeitgeist thoroughly and let us know what you think.  Your input would be very important, either as critic or contributor!

signalfire's picture
signalfire
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Re: Zeitgeist

Thanks moderator!  I had not realized that Zeitgeist was on the recommended list by Chris.  [Ed. note:  It isn't on a recommended list.  See above.].  I'm truly gratified and will read through the other postings (wow, there's a LOT!) when I have time.  Whoohoo, there is hope!

Our situation is so dire... I vacillate between hoping for armed insurrection, (oh no, that means more violence..), hoping for secession which won't help the majority, and wondering if anything will actually help.  I just know it's not gonna be bumperstickers, voting or writing either blogs or best sellers. They all have their part in the educational process but even all put together, it's not nearly enough. After a LOT of research over the past 8 years or so, Zeitgeist is the only approach that has the ring of truth to it, for me at least. Whether it's doable?  Who knows. Gotta start somewhere.

Good luck to everyone; we are going to need it.

 

etsan's picture
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Re: Zeitgeist

Hi Signal,

I've watched zeitgeist and I can attest its a very informative and interesting video. Although I always try to take everything with a grain of salt.

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Re: Zeitgeist

Signalfire,  I just watched Zeitgeist on the official site after you mentioned earlier.  Very powerful.  No doubt rocked my foundation.  It very succinctly presented information that has been orbiting my awareness for years.   Thank you for this tip.  I acknowledge that we must then do our best to vet all we hear, see and read then come to our own conclusions but I will say that if even a fraction of what was said is true then this is very dangerous ground we are treading.  Freedom of speech is our right but this freedom is a double edge sword in that it exposes oneself to danger.  Because we have this freedom it is not always best to exercise it.   It is my position that there is nothing that can be done to stop what is coming, consider what has already been accomplished.  I believe It best to keep what we know quiet while positioning ourselves to the best advantage.  Nacci.

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Aaron M
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Re: Zeitgeist

Not sure if anyone is interested, but this topic lived it's life here:
http://www.peakprosperity.com/forum/teh-zeitgeist-movement/11668

Some of us old fools remember.

Cheers,

Aaron

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Re: Zeitgeist

I just recently saw Zeitgeist and as a christian who questions I can tell you that at first it rocked my world too but then I remembered something.  Jesus said that he is "The Living God" and no doubt he was very well aware of the teachings about the gods that had been passed down for generations before him and that is why he made the "Living God" destinction durring his time here on earth.  I now view the god teachings as prophetic and fortelling of The True Son and therefore beautiful in every way.

 

I'll be watching the addendum soon and I can hardly wait.  Thanks for the reminder and for this thread.

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Re: Zeitgeist

I will repost this comment from the prior Zeitgeist thread which Aaron Moyer has already linked to. 

Zeitgeist Movement wrote:

“We intend to restore the fundamental necessities and environmental awareness of the species through the avocation of the most current understandings of who and what we truly are...”

We immediately can see that these people's grasp of the English language is not strong.  The above piece of text is part of their organization statement, and therefore would have almost certainly been reviewed by more than one person before being released.  That nobody noticed the malapropism, or even bothered to look up the meaning of a word which they did not know, means that the ranks of this organization may not have been drawn from a particularly strong academic tradition.  Often this can indicate an institutional anti-intellectualism.

Quote:

When a serial killer is caught, most people jump up and down and scream for the death of that person. This is backwards. A truly sane society, which understands what we are and how our value systems are created, would take the individual and learn the reasons behind his or her violent actions. This information would then go to a research department which considers how to stop such conditions from occurring through education.

Universities have been researching this for quite some time.  For example, in the 1970’s a study was done of the fourteen minors then on death row in all of the United States, for unspeakably horrific murders.  It was found that of these 14 youths, 12 had been severely beaten and sexually abused by their parents, and the 13th had been, at least, badly abused physically.

The solution naturally suggests itself:  stop parents from abusing their children.

But nay.  The Zeitgeist Movement believes it is “totally illogical” for our communities to keep prisons, police and courts.  So how, then, do we stop the drunken child abusers who will shoot anybody who comes near their house?  The Zeitgeist Movement is silent on the specifics.

And incidentally, university professors don’t have any kind of special security clearance.  There is nothing stopping the researchers of the ZM from visiting prisons, interviewing criminals, and then deciding “how to stop such conditions from occurring through education.”

Quote:

In a true society, people would follow their natural inclinations and work to contribute to society not because they are "paid" for it, but because they have a greater awareness which recognizes that contributing to society helps them just as much as everyone else. This is the heightened state of awareness we hope to communicate.

Please do. I know some people who have reached this level of self-awareness, but not very many.

Zeitgeist Movement wrote:

Is population growth really that bad? The answer is that from a scientific perspective the earth can handle many, many times more people if need be, once high technology is harnessed.  70% of our planet is water and cities in the sea ( one of many projects by Jacque Fresco) are the next step.

  Are they doing anything to help figure out how to build floating cities?  Or are they just throwing stones, and hoping that "somebody else" will figure out how to build the floating metropoli?  Everybody would like to see floating train stations, floating ore refineries, and floating baseball parks!  Will the raw materials come from floating forests and floating coal mines?

The statement above reveals a degree of utter ignorance which simply begs to be poked fun at.  We are not running out of physical space on the earth, we are running out of resources.  We don’t need floating cities.  We need to figure out a way not to destroy the earth while extracting the resources that humans need to live.  An individual human needs a certain amount of resources:  a certain amount of carbon, a certain amount of protein, a certain amount of daily water.  The ZM’s lack of understanding even of the fundamental nature of the resource problems facing us now begins to lend greater weight to the speculation regarding their anti-intellectualism.  They claim to have ultimate faith in science and technology, but are ignorant of scientific principles.  That makes them seem more like a religion.


Quote:

For example, there is a large movement of people who constantly talk about "The New World Order" and this notion that there is an elite group of people who have been trying to take over the world for a long time and have manipulated society in various ways to further their goals.

This, of course, is true to a certain extent.

BUT, the failure of awareness is that this "group" is not a group at all. It is a tendency.

Now, this is a great truth.  If only more people realized this.  People’s need to believe in “secret conspiracies” is one of the easiest mental tricks which allow then to throw up their hands and say, "It’s out of our hands.”  If this psychological trick for absolving oneself of responsibility for what goes on in one’s community could be extinguished, it would be a great good.

Zeitgeist Movement wrote:

“We can continue to stomp on the ants coming out from under the refrigerator, but until we remove the spoiled food behind it, they are just going to keep coming.”

Everything that the Zeitgeist Movement says seems to end up on this note.  Much hot air, and no concrete ideas.  If they have any real ideas, what are they?  If these ideas work, then why don’t they demonstrate them on a group of people?  “The Government” doesn’t have a monopoly on that thing called education!  If they have ideas which will cause the great mass of people to work without pay, then why don’t they demonstrate them?

 

They have an open invitation to come to my town.  The town selectmen may appoint them as a “special educational committee”, so it will all be official, and they can then go forth into the community, stamp out all crime, and cause people to be willing to work without pay.  Come, please.  Come to our town and show how this works.  Any time.

Aaron M's picture
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Re: Zeitgeist

Rocketgirl,

Agreed. As a person who has literally had prayer change their life, give them everything they need and want and give them strength when they thought it was impossible to go on (on several occasions) I can say for certain that Prayer is not for "the Nation" as was implied in the Christmas Massacre thread. It's a very personal and effective means of finding inner strength. 

That said, I find Zeitgeist to be misleading on a number of other grounds, almost all of which can be found on the reference site I listed on the other thread. 

Jrf,

Again, I completely agree with your points here, and the other points against the zeitgeist movement in the other thread.
It's yet another mode of control through isolation and self-imposed solidarity.
Not a mutual respect or common ground, as is our constitution or the principles of our founding fathers.

Signalfire,

In keeping with my word (that I research my on my own) I came to find that Dr. Martenson has NOT endorsed Zeitgeist as "required reading".
As mentioned before, I do not speak for Dr. Martenson (as he's a far more disciplined and easygoing dude than me) but I know that from the perspective of a person who has routinely exhanged ideas here for better than a year - citing facts will get you farther than citing fiction.

Our past transgressions aside, I hope you'll consider this in the future.

Cheers,

Aaron

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Re: Zeitgeist

I haven't watched Zeitgeist for maybe 18 months.  My first reaction was just plain... WOW!  It works at the shock and awe level, but upon watching it a second time, when the shock of it all had worn off a bit, I could see holes right through it, which further investigation as suggested by Aaron totally proved to be correct.

For starters, some of the religious assertions (and I am relying on memory now...) rely on word plays that, as a bilingual French/English speaker I can categorically say only work in English...

I thought the editing was woeful, and all the explosions and fireworks totally un necessary, could easily be edited in half.

Most of it is misinfotainment IMO....

Now, back to the real revolution!

Mike

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Re: Zeitgeist

I would like to thank SignalFire for her information on Zeitgeist.  I wasn't aware of the film or the movement prior to this post.  Any educated and well-informed person should welcome “any” information provided through this forum.  I feel wisdom will allow the literate to discern what is relevant and what is not.  Excuse me now while I go tear apart my new passport.  Thanks again.

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Re: Zeitgeist

Yep, I watched it as I was a Zeitgeist the movie virgin until about a couple of hours ago.

All I can say is wow, that's some hokey BS.

The religion thing is totally farcical, I was expecting John Cleese to come out with the "Ministry of Funny Walks". I mean, talk about cherry picking your references, and completely twisting others. Horus==Jesus==Krisha==Mithra==Dionysus sure thing baby, gimme another hit off that thing.

Then we have the usual 9/11 conspiracies, I wasn't buying them before and I'm not buying them now,

Finally lets get to part 3 and the Fed, well I had expected this to at least give me some pause, I already think these guys are criminals. Nope typical anti-semitic complaints about how the international bankers are taking over the world for the Rothschilds, Bilderbergers and Rockefellers forming a NWO, where we're all slaves. (Where's Larry when you need him).

Now the general theme I extracted was

Money is the source of all evil and it's controlled by evil men, causing wars for huge profits.

Religion and institutions are mind control (I happen to agree with this, but for different reasons).

We have the ability and resources to change our society, by becoming a single planetary government, and allowing technology to free us from debt slavery, to spend our time as we want, with our basic needs taken care of.

However the issue with it is there's no solution, it's a problem statement, and I'm not personally sure that the problems they're identifying are accurate. Are we a reflection of our social institutions, or are our social institutions a reflection of us, I suspect the latter, and saw no evidence to change that persective Finally the other issue is the veracity of their data, arguments and conclusions, which then casts doubts on everything else.

I'd totally love to have technology make everything go away, and solve world problems. However it just can't for many reasons, not the least being the social aspects, which yes they mention in their manifesto for the Venus Project, but these are so ingrained that we can't fix them in time to do anything about it. As for the technical aspects, well we don't nor do the Zeitgeist Movement, what our absolute resources are on this rock. I did think the whole energy discussion was rather weak though, since yes we could use Geothermal to power the globe, but at what cost of resources, do we have enough?

The one other thing, that irks me about this, is it's utopianism. One thing that defines us as humans is struggle, struggle for survival, for spiritual enlightment, for knowledge, for justice and liberty, letting our technology take the burden of our immediate survival, eliminates the struggle aspect of who we really are. Sure on the surface of it living on a floating city, waking up in my 276th floor apartment by my servantbot, who's telling me I have an appointment to play tennis in an hour, and they've prepared some breakfast and coffee, sounds great. A bit like London, it's great for a vacation, but you don't want to live there (I know from experience of London). Maybe I'm a Luddite, who'da thunk it...?

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Re: Zeitgeist

ZEITGEIST REFUTED

 

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Re: Zeitgeist

 I think it's important to seperate the two parts of Zeitgeist...

 Assuming everything in the descriptive "where we are" part is true, the Venus project as a "where we should go" doesn't follow...

 the film/movement is a non-sequitur...

 I'd criticise LaRouche or Marx for the same reason.. interesting diagnosis , flawed prescription.

 Natural enough... it's usually easier to critique than it is to create..

 

 The Venus project as solution is another collectivist, top down, final solution for everyone.. and I don't believe in them.. I prefer diversity to monocultures..

 The solutions I look for can stand on their own, whether practised as an individual, family, town, or nation...

 The Gnu solution instead of the Apple one to use an operating system analogy...

 

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Re: Zeitgeist

Zeitgeist is in my opinion, a classic example of people throwing out the wheat with the chaff.

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Re: Zeitgeist
foote2777 wrote:

ZEITGEIST REFUTED

 

 

I just watched the first 5 sections and WOW!  Thanks for the link foot.

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Re: Zeitgeist

I agree with Gungnir and several other posts. The Zeitgeist website has some interesting ideas, however I find nearly all of the proposed solutions naive and unworkable in the extreme. 

The Technocracy movement tried to fix everything with technology back in the 30s & 40s and was a dismal failure -- this one won't fare any better.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technocracy_movement

 

Jim

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Re: Zeitgeist

 

Overall ZeitGeist is GREAT!!.  It shows how society can be easily manipulated and controlled.  Addendum explains how the monetary system is no more than a control devise on the population, and how it promotes poor resource management. (my own expample) Ex. 5 companies entering the Barbie Doll market, what a waste of oil, just for the sake of market share.  

Another true aspect of the films, PDF and like material is the aspect of True Efficiency, Sustainability and Abundance are enemies of the profit structure.  

Companies need a "turnover rate" to maintain profit, but if a battery company like Energizer made batteries that lasted 10 or more years, the turnover rate would be less then batteries that lasted 2 months hence loosing profit. Although one could argue the markup on the longer lasting battery would make up for the difference, but then again people's purchasing power and market forces would force the lower prices again leading to a lower turnover rate.

If we also made cars that lasted a families life time, it too would have the same effect as the battery.  If everything in everyones house lasted beyond their own life span, then those companies that you buy from will loose business overtime.

Also to maintain market share/ power you cannot have free energy or anything with true characteristics of abundance and sustainability.  Meaning Oil Cartels (opec) would never allow the invention of Water based cars (stan meyers story).

"Electric power is everywhere present in unlimited quantities and can drive the world's machinery without the need of coal, oil, gas, or any other of the common fuels." -Tesla

Money is an old invention that was devised thousands of years ago, how much longer are we going to let an old system / idea to be used to solve future problems?  You don't see us use computers from the 1970's to solve computer issues of 2010 do you?

Could society really function in a Resource Based Economy?  Currently, Who knows.  Maybe, maybe not.  A smart approach would be to have a test city to see the results.  

Like Jacque Fresco said, the current system will have to fail.  With more outsourcing and Down sizing due to technology, it will happen someday, but not anytime soon.  

As we move on, technology will become faster and better, solving human problems with the human factor taken out of the equation, leaving that person jobless and with no purchasing power.  According to Fresco, technology has been so paralyzed and suppressed that ideas like "The Venus Project" could have taken form back in the 1930's.  

Like it or hate it the ideas pushed in both ZeitGeist movies are just a way to help awareness on the issues, just like any other form of information, but if it comes out of a politicians mouth, I'd be more hesitant to trust what is said. 

Belated Happy New Year everyoneCool

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