for you anti-gunners out there

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plantguy90's picture
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for you anti-gunners out there

Here's a thought from recent headlines about biker gangs in Australia raging through the airport.  If we have succesful gon control, meaning guns are ouit of the hands of ordinary citizens, and lets even suppose most criminals, than thuggery and rule by bullying will be one of the laws of unintended consequences. 

How is a 90-year old elderly person going to protect him/herself from thugs or bullys with a club?  Even a knife?

We will go back in time to rule by the physically strong. 

 

 

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Re: for you anti-gunners out there

For those of you who don't know what plantguy90 is talking about, here's a link with a brief summary: http://www.wgntv.com/landing/?Bikers-brawl-through-Australian-airport-=1&blockID=246159&feedID=24

Plantguy90's point is well-taken. It's the old saying the NRA loves: "If guns are outlawed, only criminals will have guns." No matter how you feel about the NRA, you cannot deny the slogan. Guns will always be available and if they become illegal or the ability to get them so onerous, only criminals will have them.

Not to mention the 2nd Amendment which echos a right that we should be ever vigilant of. It might seem unthinkable to you now but there could be a time when the people would need to protect themselves from the government. (I know I probably just went on a watch list for that comment. Sealed)

I believe that gun control was enacted in the Wiemar Republic and then strengthened by the Nazis. I don't know if the Jews would have been able to successfully fight back if they had guns but certainly no citizen's uprising against tyranny will have any chance if those citizens don't have guns.

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Re: for you anti-gunners out there
Quote:

"If guns are outlawed, only criminals will have guns.  No matter how you feel about the NRA, you cannot deny the slogan"

Hahahahaha!  

Of course its true - if guns are outlawed AND you have guns at that time - you BECOME a criminal.

On the side note regarding 90 year-olds and guns - I wouldn't have wanted my grandmother to have one (she had dementia in her later years - didn't recognize her own sisters, daughter, or grandchildren and viewed everyone near her with suspicion.  If she'd owned a gun I wouldn't have entered her room without a bulletproof vest)

 

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Re: for you anti-gunners out there

Lisa G,

The Warsaw uprising was instigated by Jews who were bold enough to kill Nazi occupiers and steal their weapons.
They were not ultimately successful, but they died on their feet, instead of in a gas chamber.

http://www.warsawuprising.com/ 

drb,

I suppose that strikes you as a "good" thing? Criminalizing citizens by criminalizing a non-violent possession of an inanimate object?

Cheers!

Aaron

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Re: for you anti-gunners out there

drb. If someone is treated like a criminal for excercising a constitutional right, then are they the real criminals or are the advocates of usurping constitutional rights the criminals?

I'd call the later constitutional traitors. Yep. In fact I am certain of it. There is just too much iron-clad evidence in the papers and writings of the founders, as well as the compacts with states conditional to accepting entrance to the union, to argue that gun ownership is a collective right. In fact those that argue that line of crap are either historically ignorant to an unimaginable degree, or flat out lying to advance a cause. The collective right's argument didn't gain any "popularity" until it was cooked up in the universities and think tanks in the mid-twentith century. In closing let me ask you this. Who's lying about the framer's intent. The framers, who then apparently told a whole bunch of fibs, lies, and whoppers in their writings and really didn't mean what they said, or the gun-grabbers? 

Think about it. 

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Re: for you anti-gunners out there
Aaron Moyer wrote:

Lisa G,

The Warsaw uprising was instigated by Jews who were bold enough to kill Nazi occupiers and steal their weapons.
They were not ultimately successful, but they died on their feet, instead of in a gas chamber.

http://www.warsawuprising.com/ 

Thanks for pointing that out Aaron. As a Jew I am well aware of the Warsaw uprising and because of that history, it has baffled me to no end as to why the majority of my fellow American Jews are anti-gun.

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Re: for you anti-gunners out there

Aaron, MGhandi -

You read into my statement what you wanted to read (i.e You started with the assumption that since I commented on this thread that I am 'anti-gun' and, therefore, that anything i stated was a criticism of all gun owners) and attacked based on that assumption.  Should I have put a smiley face on what I said????? (I would have thought the 'hahaha' was sufficient).

If you cannot find the humor in the alternative interpretation of the  phrase that has been used by the NRA for years (i.e. that only criminals will have guns if the ownership of guns is made illegal) then a little more inward analysis is warranted.

I am ex-military, have been trained in the use of rifles and handguns, my Father retired from the police, my Brother is currently a policeman, and I've been around guns since I was a child (and I would still have ensured my grandmother did not have a gun anywhere near her)

And Aaron - we ciminilize people all the time for simply carrying the dried leaves of a common plant - you didn't mention that (should I, therefore, interpret your absence inclusion that you consider it to be okay to criminilize citizens for possesion of a previously animate (but non-violent) plant ??? (see how ludicrous that interpretation is?)

These responses have simply reinforced the reason why I have not participated in this forum in awhile.

Peace out!

 

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Re: for you anti-gunners out there

I am not usually one to take the bait but I have been reading so much about guns here that I now feel the need to offer my own words of wisdomSmile.

I live in NZ where few people have guns, the police are not personally armed and few criminals use guns. Guns are simply not on our horizon or a significant part of our world. Many of my friends fear guns and want them hidden and certainly never shown to children. Most of us feel very uncomfortable in the presence of a gun. So which is the chicken and which is the egg?

It seems to me that guns are an issue where one view is held in abstraction and another in experience. By allowing our mind to entertain the possibility of a threatening situation involving guns we move the outcome of such a situation more toward violence. 

I have never been robbed or my wellbeing seriously threatened by violence since childhood. This is not by luck. Many situations may have turned out differently.  I have worked as a probation officer (for quite a few years) in the past and have come to know many criminals very well. Almost all are people whose life experiences many well have led me to act as they did. Yes; there were a very few who I could fear.

If someone ever comes to rob me I hope to make them a cup of tea, sit down for a chat and maybe send them away with all my possessions.

Don

_____________________

still ...
here  ...
still here
still here?

 

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Re: for you anti-gunners out there

drb,

You said:

Quote:

And Aaron - we ciminilize people all the time for simply carrying the dried leaves of a common plant - you didn't mention that (should I, therefore, interpret your absence inclusion that you consider it to be okay to criminilize citizens for possesion of a previously animate (but non-violent) plant ??? (see how ludicrous that interpretation is?)

No, you should not make assumptions, as I shouldn't have either. However, what I pointed it out was relavant to the topic being discussed. Drug possession is not. I personally don't believe the war on drugs is worth it's cost, and it should be ceased. Legalizing possession would clear our jails out for the true, habitual and violent offenders, and cost less tax dollars.

You also said:

Quote:

If you cannot find the humor in the alternative interpretation of the  phrase that has been used by the NRA for years (i.e. that only criminals will have guns if the ownership of guns is made illegal) then a little more inward analysis is warranted.

I'm not sure what you mean by this.

Lastly,

Quote:

These responses have simply reinforced the reason why I have not participated in this forum in awhile.

What? How is anyone being anything but reasonable?
I just asked you a question. Military forget to teach you about mutual respect?

Lisa G,

Quote:

Thanks for pointing that out Aaron. As a Jew I am well aware of the Warsaw uprising and because of that history, it has baffled me to no end as to why the majority of my fellow American Jews are anti-gun.

On many occasions I've wondered the same thing... With such a powerfully defensive culture, you'd think that there would be a more solid feeling of self-preservation. I can only speculate it's because the majority of Jews are urbane, and it's just not a common need in an urban area. The Warsaw Uprising was a great moment in courage.

Don,

You may be on to something. But as mentioned with the Australian Biker Gangs, I'd suspect that the problem is a human one, and would occur with any level of social armament. I personally like an equalizer.

Cheers!

Aaron

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Re: for you anti-gunners out there

And then, there is this:  http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090322/ap_on_re_us/police_shot_ca

If only those killed had been armed...oh wait, they were armed...and trained.

We can all be armed to the teeth, and things like this will happen.  The more guns, the more they will be used.  And this, from a former member of the NRA.

Sorry if I sound upset, but I came to this web site hoping to find alternatives to the crap that brought us to where we are.  I guess after "TSHTF", we will reorganize into the same idiocy that we have now.

Didn't Chris M say that he was hopeful for what may come after?  This is hope?

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Re: for you anti-gunners out there

Ted. If you want to abolish firearms then get 3/4ths of the states to abolish the 2nd amendment. It's really that simple. We've become a people that not only accepts, but embraces and encourages arbitrary law. Because such blatent disrespect for a Bill of Rights has implications. Without a framework to protect the rights of the individual then we are all subject to the whims of the masses and whatever "feels about right" at the moment. I'll tell you what, 2nd amendment aside. I sure as heck don't want to live that way.

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Re: for you anti-gunners out there

This country developed a gun culture almost from its founding. Guns were needed to protect against varmints (both animal and human) from the beginning and have been needed to this day.

Other cultures, such as NZ, are fortunate that the gun mentality is not prevalent there - yet. Look at what has happened in England. Police there are now armed because the criminals quit playing "by the rules" (surprise, surprise!).

If someone ever comes to rob me I hope to make them a cup of tea, sit
down for a chat and maybe send them away with all my possessions.

Don - It's a good thing you're in NZ - here in the US, this would be considered insanity. Hard core criminals have no emotions and would just as soon kill you as look at you. Nasty situation, isn't it? However, this is our reality.

 

Lisa - re the Warsaw Uprising. That was a proud, defining moment for the Jewish population. Having read much history - including that of the Jewish faith - I learned that the mentality for centuries was, "It's our burden to always be attacked. We must accept it as our fate - just as our ancestors did. Resistance is futile."

I can't remember quite where I read it but there was apparently even a phrase or term that was used by the Jewish people that codified in their religion, in a strange way, their acceptance of their fate.

For far too many years I wondered at the apparent lack of resistance by the Jews in Europe. Rather than fight, they meekly accepted their fate refusing to believe that such terrible things would be visited upon their heads. And, when the realization dawned, it was too late. That is one of the strengths of the secular Israeli people - the concept of never again!

 

TedM - Be glad those police officers were willing to give their lives to defend you from the dregs of society. Without that "thin blue line" your life would be more miserable indeed! Taking away the guns from law abiding citizens (or the police) wouldn't have changed the outcome of this awful tragedy - it would have made it worse.

Do you remember the bank robbery in L.A. when the police were outgunned by the robbers? The SWAT team had to borrow high-powered weapons from a gun store in order to take down the robbers. Do you think all the scum-bags in the U.S. would put down their weapons if the police did? HA! As a former member of the NRA, I'm surprised that you're surprised.

Sorry if I sound upset, but I came to this web site hoping to find
alternatives to the crap that brought us to where we are.  I guess
after "TSHTF", we will reorganize into the same idiocy that we have now.

I don't know what alternative you are looking for on this site. If it was to find a group of people who are going to create a village of pacifists, you've come to the wrong place. Perhaps some on this web site would like such a place to exist. The rest of us are a little more realistic - especially in this country (U.S.).

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Re: for you anti-gunners out there
MGhandi wrote:

Ted. If you want to abolish firearms then get 3/4ths of the states to abolish the 2nd amendment. It's really that simple. We've become a people that not only accepts, but embraces and encourages arbitrary law. Because such blatent disrespect for a Bill of Rights has implications. Without a framework to protect the rights of the individual then we are all subject to the whims of the masses and whatever "feels about right" at the moment. I'll tell you what, 2nd amendment aside. I sure as heck don't want to live that way.

I said nothing of abolishing any amendments.

What I am responding to is the lunacy of believing that an armed populace is going to stop anything - as if armed people in an airport are going to prevent thugs from fighting.  Nor are people with 9mm Glocks going to do anything against turret-mounted 50mm machine guns.

We have allowed this debate about firearms to be framed in a manner that no longer serves us.  Times have changed and the government has the bigger weapons - by far.  Give the 50mm's to the people?  Sure.  Instead of 3 or 4 dead cops, we'd have 30 or 40.

I don't know what attracted me to this thread, other than the fact that I was hoping for ideas about how else to be in a world after this one and was surprised to find this.  Apparently, according to some posters, it will be the same...maybe worse.

Great.

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Re: for you anti-gunners out there

Ted,

You said:

Quote:

Nor are people with 9mm Glocks going to do anything against turret-mounted 50mm machine guns.

We have allowed this debate about firearms to be framed in a manner that no longer serves us.  Times have changed and the government has the bigger weapons - by far.  Give the 50mm's to the people?  Sure.  Instead of 3 or 4 dead cops, we'd have 30 or 40.

Perhaps your thinking is a bit too conventional. What's the best way to stop a MiG?

Shoot the pilot before he gets in.
Are you going to be able to do that better with a .50 caliber, or a 9mm Glock?
If it comes to fighting a war, which I personally pray to God it doesn't, mindset, skillset and tactics will rule the day.

Sounds to me like you need to cultivate some mindset, and it sounds to me like those cops should have too.
In my opinion, they have no one to blame except themselves. They have an unlimited budget to train, practice and take seriously their craft.

They spend all their time rehersing ambushes against stoners, and when they run into someone who's waiting for them, they take casualties. Is the perp wrong? Hell yes.
Should the PD taken it's training more seriously? I'd bet the farm that the answer is "yes".
As with many things in California, I think "ego" is the primary force behind their SWAT team.

Bigger weapons - by far - mean nothing. Give the people 50mm? No one knows what that is, because the .50BMG is standard, not metric. Not to mention, the people already have them.

Most gang bangers can't afford to drop the $30,000 on one though.

Aaron

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Re: for you anti-gunners out there
TedM wrote:

What I am responding to is the lunacy of believing that an armed populace is going to stop anything - as if armed people in an airport are going to prevent thugs from fighting.  Nor are people with 9mm Glocks going to do anything against turret-mounted 50mm machine guns.

Yup, tell that to the people of Afganistan who kicked a nuclear power's butt (Russia) with rusty bolt action rifles or the people of Veit Nam  who kicked the U.S. butt with their ferocious attack/run mentallity. Your position is not based in reality nor history, Ted.

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Re: for you anti-gunners out there
jerrydon10 wrote:

Yup, tell that to the people of Afganistan who kicked a nuclear power's butt (Russia) with rusty bolt action rifles or the people of Veit Nam  who kicked the U.S. butt with their ferocious attack/run mentallity. Your position is not based in reality nor history, Ted.

The people of Afghanistan and the Vietnamese had centuries of experience in resistance fighting.

Never mind, I've come to the wrong place.  You guys are good, you've beaten me and I'm outta here - in more ways than one.

Chris Martenson will be getting neither my $ nor any further referrals from me.  He's the boss and this website reflects him.  Not the kind of place I want to be.

P.S.  Rusty bolt action rifles?  Is that what the US supplied the Mujahideen with?  Not likely.

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Re: for you anti-gunners out there
SamLinder wrote:

Don - It's a good thing you're in NZ - here in the US, this would be considered insanity. Hard core criminals have no emotions and would just as soon kill you as look at you. Nasty situation, isn't it? However, this is our reality.

Sam 

They all have people in their own tribe or group to whom they act at least as you or I might toward each other were we to meet. We have racism, organised crime and gangs here. Some here go outside their own groups to meet, talk and befriend divergent others. That breaks down the walls before they are too high to cross.

Don

PS. sorry sam - it sounds a bit preachy. I'm regarded as insane here too. We fear to go toward where you apparently are but lack the insight and perhaps will to stop ourselves.

_________________________________________________


So few then with so many ways, so many now with so few ways.

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Re: for you anti-gunners out there

Ted,

Good riddance.
You don't belong in a place where you can't process information that you don't agree with without taking offense.

I'm sorry anyone wasted their time trying to rationalize with you.

Here's a picture of the "highly seasoned" Afghan Militia:
Afghani Militiaman

These people understand have almost zero training, old weapons from the Soviet Occupation (the Kid in the picture has an AK-47, which was made before the AKM, which was made in the 1960's.) and they have only the most primitive means of communication.
They will win because they have far more to lose than the invaders, and eventually we will leave.
Savvy?

To say the Vietnamese had centuries of experience with Guerilla warfare is naive and uninformed.
They were a culture predominately of farmers.

Quote:

Chris Martenson will be getting neither my $ nor any further referrals from me.  He's the boss and this website reflects him.  Not the kind of place I want to be.

You're correct. Free speech, little intervention, exchange of ideas... not the place for you.
Next time I order a "Crash Course" DVD, I'll order two, just to make up for you leaving.

Cheerio.

Aaron

PS:
Here's your Organize Taleban, if you're not happy seeing the "good guys"
Taleban

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Re: for you anti-gunners out there

People should understand at least why this is a divisive issue.

In 1996 a man who legally owned a gun walked into a school in Dunblance Scotland and killed 16 children. Primarily because of this incident, the UK enacted very strict laws governing hand guns. The laws are so strict the British Olympic team have to practice firing their starter pistols outside the country. Statistically, there have been fewer hand gun crimes since then, but more crimes with other types of guns.

In Mexico there is a very bloody drug war going on. The guns cannot be obtained in Mexico but are imported from the US. The trade is like a parade of ants - one car imports only one or two guns at a time.

I will not feel safer if everyone around me is carrying a gun. A tragedy takes only one person to snap out of anger or temporary insanity.

Keeping a gun to protect one's home against home invasion should be considered if there is no way a child will find it. I know of a teenage son who found the gun and the best friend stole it.

I am not against responsible hunting and again home invasion might be something to fear in the near future I don't know. Right now however, I think it's a little paranoid.

 

Thanks, 

 

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Re: for you anti-gunners out there

All very interesting.

 

If the article I read was anywhere near accurate, I can't believe ONE man killed "SWAT" - "trained" police!

 

OK the motorcycle cops were caught by surprise. That is the chance they take with a traffic stop. I'm sure tactics are taught that minimize the likelihood that one would get shot. BUT - alas. that is the risk!

When I was a firefighter, my brothers in blue could never understand why I would gladly run into a burning building.... I never have understood why they would want to do a traffic stop.

My issue comes with the ensuing "chase" "man-hunt" whatever you call it. THEN to have TWO more officers killed by ONE man?????????

I would bet the assailant had some military training.

 

training, training, training.

 

I hadn't touched a gun in almost twenty years. In my youth, I was a fair and safe hunter. I was an accurate shot and followed my gun safety rules. But now, just picking up the cold blue steel again felt foreign in my hands. All the years of anti-gun rhetoric had taken its toll on my psyche. Now the thought of taking tactial training.... my goodness, what has happened to us. I consider it my "hedge fund" training.

 

FWIW - C.

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Re: for you anti-gunners out there

RNcarl,

Great post...

No matter what you pursue, you just touched on what I think is the most important tool in our arsenal.
Train, learn and build skill.

For the last 50 years or so, our world has been very well protected.
Things may change, they may not. You may never have to make repairs on your home or car on your own. You may never have to defend your life... but it's a good idea to learn those skills before you need them.

Cheers!

Aaron

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Re: for you anti-gunners out there

Ted.

 "Times have changed" always means arbitrary law. It's another way that many say "the constitution is what we say it is because the founders couldn't have envisioned what today would be like". 

If times have changed and the nation's legal framework needs to change then why ignore the constitution? Ignoring the constitution, allowing government to grasp and wield scores of extra-constitutional powers is exactly what got us into this present day mess. 

There is a proscribed method for altering the law of the land. It's called the Amendment Process. Ends around of constitutional liberties and rights for the sake of "changing times" is not a just social contract. 

Do you see what I mean brother?

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Re: for you anti-gunners out there

As we see from following this thread, any discussion of an armed citizenry arouses passions. I'm a Texan. We have a gun culture here and I'm comfortable with it. Many of my fellow Texans carry concealed handguns lawfully, and I feel safer as a result. They are, by and large, responsible citizens who are not going to do anything stupid. Statistically, every once in a while we're going to see a headline about some nutcase who enters a cafeteria and starts blasting away (it happened here a few years ago, before we had a "shall issue" concealed handgun law), killing scores of people who were unarmed. That's less likely to happen nowadays, because nutcases understand that someone is likely to whip out a legal handgun and terminate the nutcase with extreme prejudice. If a local D.A. ever tried to prosecute, the jury would carry the defendant out of the courtroom on their shoulders, cheering. Maybe that's not the case where you live, but it is here.

There appears to be evidence -- after years of "shall issue" laws in a number of states -- that crimes committed with guns have decreased a bit. Certainly there is no evidence that an armed citizenry has run amok or that widespread carrying of concealed handguns has resulted in an increase in crime.

Guns are not our enemy. Bad people with guns are the problem. Taking guns away from good people only makes the problem worse. Let us recognize that we are polarized on the firearms issue. There are those on both sides of the argument. I'm probably not going to change your mind and you're not going to change mine. Let's accept that and move on.

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Re: for you anti-gunners out there

BSV.

Unfortunately I don't think it's a "move on issue" when one party is actively engaged in an effort to deny the other party their right to self preservation based on the former's perception that the later doesn't need them. I understand your concern but it is difficult to get past when you put it in the perspective that there are those that are perfectly willing to place a statistical odds on whether or not you'll ever need to defend yourself and then seem to think that they somehow have a right to determine whether or not you should have the right to defend yourself based on their assessement. I've been a political junkie for some time now. Not a stereotype but a good number of people opposed to the 2nd amendment just personally despise guns. Now combine both side's mindsets and you have a powderkeg. 

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Re: for you anti-gunners out there

I should go to bed and stop reading all these posts!

I also hate to self-impose my conscience on these forums, but could we all not find some middle ground? Not agree on each issue, necessarily, but recognize that there exists a myriad of nuances to most every issue, and that most people are not in one extreme camp or the other? After years of being the guy who was willing to "fall on his sword" over some issue or another, I have finally learned that is usually unnecessary.

Chris Martenson speaks of community, and I believe he is right. This online community consists of those with a shared concern regarding the economy, energy, and the environment. We need not see eye-to-eye regarding such contentious subjects as firearms. Accordingly, I'd suggest we try not to alienate others by our views on such subjects.

Damn, I feel like Jiminy Cricket...

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Re: for you anti-gunners out there

Can we get back to the original post?  I realize this is a hot button issue, but I was bringing up the anthropological ramifications of successful gun control, coupled with weak economic times.  Would it bring back the days when the physically strong prey on the weak? 

 

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Re: for you anti-gunners out there

Okay, Time for me to hit the hay too. BTW, thanks for the posts and good humor too!

I feel like Dad (Christopher) just poked his head into the party, caught Aaron with a smokin gun (you know he got off several rounds) and said it's time to turn out the lights boys !  hahahaha

Aaron, I'll kick in for a DVD too.

Coop

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Re: for you anti-gunners out there

Plantguy90: 

We may find that out before long, though I hope not. I considered the question and my conclusion is that it will probably depend on the level of desperation.

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Re: for you anti-gunners out there

Plantguy90,

*wince* sorry boss... re-reading, I really went a bit far, and I apologize.

You asked:

Quote:

Can we get back to the original post?  I realize this is a hot button issue, but I was bringing up the anthropological ramifications of successful gun control, coupled with weak economic times.  Would it bring back the days when the physically strong prey on the weak? 

And I think this is a point worth driving home;

My answer would be "yes" - but that's the whole reason that we need community.
In nature, there are no creatures like humans.
Herds of Cape Buffalo live in "balance" with nature. They graze, sustain themselves, and live a very sustainable existance. They find their own food, work as a group and do fairly well.

Predators are their largest concern, as predators rely only on meat produced by other animals hard work. They wait, find an easy target and move in for a kill.

No other animals besides humans, with the possible exception of various types of canines disply both these practices within the same communities. Humans can switch quickly between being docile, benign beings with a generally peaceful demeanor to violent predators. Time and stress being the two most mitigating factors in my opinion (without getting pedantic).

A socio-economic collapse and the malthusian catastrophe that leads into it takes time, and causes pressure.
Those who are unable to group together with like minded individuals will face a descision which is very natural;
- Become part of another herd which is successful at sustaining itself by offering it your talents;
- Become rejected by other herds and scavenge until;
* You're adopted into another herd, or start your own
* You're killed by a predator
- Become a Predator

Colonel Dave Grossman wrote a great article on humans being "sheep, wolves or sheepdogs", and I think it's the perfect anthropomorphic metaphor to describe how people shape themselves into social roles.
It can be found here: http://www.killology.com/sheep_dog.htm

Cheers, and I hope this helps.

Aaron

plantguy90's picture
plantguy90
Status: Gold Member (Offline)
Joined: Jan 27 2009
Posts: 271
Re: for you anti-gunners out there

Hey Aaron, this post was tongue-in-cheek, what got me was the conversation started to bring up the insane who grab guns and go shooting children in schools.  Personally I believe those violent FPS video games have something to do with desensitizing the mentally weak, allthough there are no statistics being compiled to verify this opinion.

A. M.'s picture
A. M.
Status: Diamond Member (Offline)
Joined: Oct 22 2008
Posts: 2368
Re: for you anti-gunners out there

Plantguy90,

Oh! Sorry I misunderstood...

Insofar as desensitisation goes, I'd strongly recommend Col. Grossman's book "On Killing".

It's not at all what I thought it would be - it's a psychological tour throughout history, discussing humans aversion to killing other humans. It talks in depth about the lengths society has gone to "innoculate" kids to violence.

I'm not entirely sure how much of it I believe, and there are some inconsistencies, but it's a good read if you're interested in that sort of thing.

Cheers!

Aaron

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