Why Socialized medicine will never work in the US

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krogoth's picture
krogoth
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Why Socialized medicine will never work in the US

Once again the political puppets are spouting affordable health-care for all Americans. They really need to study other countries with Socialized medicine to understand that this will never work. Here is an example of Socialized medicine.

I have used Taiwan's socialized medical system, considering I do quite a bit of work in this country as well as China. As for Taiwan, its not completely socialized at all. You pay the equivalent of $30 a month to have your Socialized medical card here. Then you have a co-pay of about 6-9 dollars if you visit the doctor or hospital (not bad) but that can go up based on the problem.

The socialized medical system here covers BASIC medical. You need to buy separate insurance to cover major medical conditions, such as Cancer or Heart disease, and that insurance is expensive and goes up just like in does in America, based on age. For example, a 30 year old Taiwanese man to get decent insurance would cost roughly $1500 a year. This would cover Cancer and most major medical diseases or conditions. At 40 this would go to about $2200 for a healthy person. No savings at all, and comparable to American prices if not more.

In other words, you go to the hospital with a broken arm, it's cheap. You go in for a major car accident, you will pay a huge bill if you don't have supplemental insurance.

The doctors here are not rich, but they are upper middle class depending on what they do. They are paid for how many they treat and how much medication the give out. It is not uncommon to go in for a cold and leave with over 9 types of medication. You look up the medications and they will give you things like antacids or other things not really related to a cold.

The funny thing is they have American medications here, and they are incredibly cheap compared to America. Why is that I wonder? Because China and Taiwan will not allow these companies to sell medications without strict price control. So a $100 medicine in America would be $4 dollars in Taiwan a month, plus you would get like 4 other things you don't need at all. Pretty interesting how the drug manufacturers have different pricing plans for different countries.

Socialized medicine can never work in America because it's just too much money for Medical companies, Doctors and Big Pharmaceutical corporations. Just forget it, it wont happen, it's impossible I don't know why these candidates always hash up this crap every 4 years.

But if you are living in a semi-Socialized or Socialized medicine area of the world, from Canada to Cuba, I would like to hear how it operates, what the cost structure is, and how you feel about it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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08058
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Re: Why Socialized medicine will never work in the US

I can give you another example. Israel has social medicine, its level, my oppinion, is higher than american. I'm insider in both systems, and telling you, you can switch to social medicine like a snap, but you need political WILL. Who benefits from the way medicine is practiced in US: doctors, hospitals, insuranse companies, faramacy companies. Patients, not that suffering, but paying huge bills for the same results. Look at UN statistics http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0934556.html

US is #1, still 25% is not covered. And this is rude estimation of quality https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2102rank.html

Just compare and make your own judgement. It is well known in medical world, that it is good to be patient in Europe and Doctor in US. In Israel physicians are salaried. Hospitals are sitting on budget so they basically know how much they receive, and how much they can spend. Insurance companies, I think that's the key. If I work or unemployed, they must accept me( there is choice of 4 companies). If I don't work, state will pay for me to Insurance company. If I work, I pay health tax, if I'm retired, I stay in the same insurance company, or I may change it any time. If I want extra service, I may buy it. Again not that system is running completely smooth, but everybody gets decent care, though staff smiles less, everybody overworked etc.

 Look what happens here. Lets say you work all your life, has med. ins, never goes to doctors, Aetna or whoever will pocket hundreds of thousands, but when you will really need medical attention, around 70, they are not responsible anymore. Doctors (I belong to this cast), well all of us will say, that we not gonna work for this or that money, but frankly speaking, what else we can do, so finally we will work for what we will be paid, no smiles then. Hospitals, instead of 1-2 will be 4-6 patients, less nurses, less laboratory or imaging studies, less procedures. Truth, all these don't translate much into quality of care, without good intelectual judjement, which substituted in the States by fear of law litigation. You may walk to grossery store to buy loaf of bread, or you may drive Hummmer, result is the same. In summary substitute 5 star hotel (which is filthy anyway) for chosen, with 2 star for everybody. Understand, personally I don't welcome it, but practically you may institute social medicine easily, and it will work. 

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Re: Why Socialized medicine will never work in the US

In Canada, Health Care as its called, (socialized never comes into the equation) is simple.you goto the doctor of your choice, and present your health card for payment. Your ensuing bill is then charged to your provincial government. You pay nothing, and get health care whenever you need it, for whatever reason.

It is a competitive system in the sense that you choose who you see and therefore there is incentive to offer good care to get more patients. The only disadvantage I have seen is that there isn't as much money for large equipment, things like MRI scanners and such. This sometimes amounts to longer waiting lists than would exist in the US. The Health Act mandates that no one can pay to get better coverage, so even the Prime Minister has to wait in line like everyone else.

 From what I can tell Obama's plan seems to combine the best of both worlds, allowing for private care and also for public coverage if you so choose. This would be more in-line with the National Health Service in the UK which operates in that way.

 It really comes down to a moral question for me. Should society let people suffer who are sick and could be helped. Don't we have a moral responsibilty to heal people? And in the case of Canada, should rick people be able to get quicker or better care? Canada has strongly answered no, health is equal for everyone.

 Hope this helps a bit.

( I shouldn't be saying this, but I know there are hospitals in Canada that will give free treament even if you don't have a health card, so if any Americans are mortgaging their house for surgery, think of taking a quick trip North)

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Re: Why Socialized medicine will never work in the US
There is a variety of approaches in Europe and Canada that are generally socialized, if you want to call it that.  The bottom line is, though, that their medical costs are much lower than in the US (I have heard as little as half our costs) and the care is generally as good if not better.  If politicians stopped using the word "socialized" and just described the plans, the benefits and the costs, Americans would jump to those models in a heart beat.  But, like in so many other areas, the AMA has Congress and this Administration in it's back pocket.  They can still trot out the red menace to frighten the uninformed.
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Re: Why Socialized medicine will never work in the US

Isn't private insurance just pooling money collectively to insure against risk? In this case the risk of getting sick. Then wouldn't public health care just be the same thing, but because you include everyone and administer it by the government its both more effective and subject to demcratic accountabililty.

 Basicailly, aren'tt private health insurance, and "socialized  medicine" the same idea, the major differences scale and control?

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Re: Why Socialized medicine will never work in the US

On a smaller scale it does work in the United States. I went to Oregon State University and we paid a $78 dollar fee every 3 months for medical care. All Doctor's visits, labs, emergency visits and preventative care were free. I have found that paying 200 dollars for a doctor visit or 400 for lab work is all rediculous. You should be able to see a doctor for free. What you should pay for is the the actions prescribed by your doctor. I did not mind paying for drugs or hospital stays. However, no one should be able to charge what they do for a regular doc visit or lab charges. No one is worth 200 dollars for a 5 minute visit. A hospital should also not charge you 3000 per day plus physician fees and misc fees. Politicians need to focus on lowering the costs of all medical care first.

When I had my daughter I went to one doctor, had a safe/normal delivery, stayed in the hospital 2 days and had full insurance coverage. I got 16 bills. I think it should only be one bill. The total billed to insurance was 16,000. I am sorry that is outrageous!! I was even mad my insurance company had to pay. Who knew that water in a hospital was 20 dollar/day?

 

I know every person has a medical story like mine. I just don't think a politician has the brains to fix these issues.

Anyways I loved how they set-up the health system at college. I know on a larger scale that may not work, but it has to be better than what we have now.

 

So this is what I usually paid in college: 

Health Savings acct with High Deductible plan: 50 dollar per month

College term fee: 320 dollars per year

With this set-up I had no co-pays....visit, lab tests and preventative care were free. Major medical issues were covered under the High Deductible plan.  Alot cheaper and better health coverage. 

 

 

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Re: Why Socialized medicine will never work in the US

The biggest reason that socializing medicine in this country won't work is quite simply this:  Insurance is a very big money-making bookie arrangement, period.  You pay you bookie a 'vig' on the bet that you won't get sick.  If the bookie pays out on the bet, he pulls the difference from the others at the track, and splits the difference with you (they call this a co-pay or deductible).  On the back side, the doctors, hospitals, drug companies, etc. are all in the deal.  This way they can grab a piece of the action as it happens.  Oh, and then there's the government - ready to throw big-bucks at the "researchers" who are going to cure all those things that cost so much!

If the government were to REALLY manage health care, they would be in effect either cutting out the need for the insurance industry and its hold on everything else, or they would so significantly reduce insurance company controls that the great powers who actually run this country would never allow it.

I understand that many other countries have very viable systems that despite shortfalls that ANY system will suffer, the capitalistic money machine in the US is unique in the world.  This issue is NOT about health, it's about money!

Bob 

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America does not have healthcare as a priority

Why do you frequently begin a discussion with a conclusive statement? (It is a very closed, negative, and controlling style.) Why use absolutes like 'never' - it is so opinionated? 

Socialized medicine works great in Canada. Friends tell me France and the UK also have an excellent system.

Rent the Michael Moore documentary DVD called Sicko. America has built it's house on sand. War and banking are treated as priorties, money seems to be the great American focus.  

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Re: Why some 'socialized medicine' theories will not work...
[quote=john50]

Why do you frequently begin a discussion with a conclusive statement? (It is a very closed, negative, and controlling style.) Why use absolutes like 'never' - it is so opinionated? 

Socialized medicine works great in Canada. Friends tell me France and the UK also have an excellent system.

Rent the Michael Moore documentary DVD called Sicko. America has built it's house on sand. War and banking are treated as priorties, money seems to be the great American focus.  

[/quote]

john50,

Krogoth, if I'm not mistaken, is offering a thesis; a theory.  Of course he doesn't know if in the future socialized medicine will not work.  He is not psychic-- I don't think.  A thesis, theory, or hypothesis is always based on opinion.  That is why he is "opinionated.

My opinion, or thesis, is that socialized medicine may work but not ideally.  That is, I believe my idea of socialized medicine will only be realized as long as the preventative measures equal the payouts (care).  For example, if this country (taxes) spends $50 mil on operating on hearts due to heart attacks, we should also be spending an equal amount, $50 mil, on preventative measures to have a goal set to reduce the needed expenditure on the $50 mil on operations.  That, in turn, will reduce the $50 mil on preventative measures... and so forth.  This is a very crude summation of my theory.  I always try to offer something "better" when criticizing other opinions.

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John50
It's OK Caroline, John50 follows me around a lot on here because of another thread. He is like a cute puppy that keeps running after me for a treat.
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Re: America does not have healthcare as a priority

You are so right John50. I am so negative all the time. Maybe I should turn to the good book for some wisdom like you have. I really apologize to be so negative to you all the time. You are correct and always correct about anything you say. I am sorry for asking Chris for an opinion on this, or anyone else. I should really just stop learning altogether and just do as I am told, by smarter people like you and trust in the Lord's government, the American government.

 

 

 

 

 

 

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krogoth
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Please John50, tell us what you know

Please John50, tell us what you know about how-

 

Canada- You must be Canadian
France-
UK-

 

Please tell us how these socialized systems work, how great or bad they are, are they government subsidised, how expensive is medicine and do you need to pay anything beyond regular government coverage for more serious conditions, like Cancer or Heart Attacks?




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Re: Why Socialized medicine will never work in the US

it will not work for a very big reason we are BROKE.

there are 47 million plus without health insurance. employer programs are contracting. medicare will collapse long before social security

i have a medical tourism business ...i arrange for people to travel to india costa rica and thailand for dental and medical care.

the system in canada is very good for primary care. but i get almost as many inquiries from canada for surgical procedures as from the u.s. the waiting times are long and my clients have indicated that the skill level is not good. the list of medicines is not comprehensive.(this info comes from my canadian clients) the equipment such as mri's are few and far between.

michael moore's movie is serioulsy flawed.

i have friends in england that have had major issues in hospitals there ....one almost had to have her foot amputated.

bottom line somebody has to pay. that means us or more to the point china. we simply do not have the money.

the level of taxes in countries with socialized medicine is considerably higher than here. i dont know of anyone who wants to raise their taxes.

i am not in any way defending the health care system here. it is much better in some other countries. i suggest you start a savings account and for $10,000 you can get just about anything handled in a world class facility overseas

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krogoth
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I need a new kidney

Joe,

 

Nothing against your business, but I think it's really sad what we have come to with healthcare in the United States, when we need to resort to possible lowered standards of medicine to simply afford it and travel to do it. This is not something you created, you are simply helping people afford procedures that have astronomical prices in the US. It's something that won't change quickly if at all.

 

 

 

 

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Re: I need a new kidney

oh contraire mon amie.

no lower standards here. the initial impetus is for lower cost. however once people go to the facilities we use they are amazed at the quality. it is far superior than most hospitals in the u.s. and on par with hospitals such as johns hopkins, harvard medical. mayo clinic etc

the nurse to patient ratio is generally 1-1 in the u.s. you rarely get to see a nurse. you see nurses aides. as the nurses are doing administrative things. the nurses are better trained than in the u.s. the level of care is more compassionate. it has to do with cultures where you are a human being not a piece of meat. you get to stay in the hospital longer than in the u.s.

hospitals like bumrungrad in bangkok are 7 star hospitals with technology beyond most hospitals anywhere. stand at the curb and you will see oil sheiks from the middle east who can afford to go anywhere and they choose the same hospitals in our network.

i only deal with the best hospitals in the world.

medical tourism goes back to ancient greece. people have traveled for millenia for health care. there was a time when people used to come to the u.s for the best care .........as with so many things that is also no longer true.

i agree it is sad but we are citizens of the world and if i can provide a way for people  to get the best care for a lot less than they can here then i guess in this case the austrian school 1 u.s healthcare 0

as for your kidney you will need a live donor.............of course you could go to china where they can slice one up while you wait .

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krogoth
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Re: I need a new Kidney

I know Joe, and no I don't need a Kidney. Maybe a brain transplant.

 

The quality overseas is as good or better, but in some places it's not. It's a toss up, and you sound like you are screening your decisions for your business correctly. I have heard horror stories, though. But I have heard more good stories than bad.

I'm talking about the countries where you go as a tourist, meet a sweet babe, she gets you drunk, and you wake up the next morning with 1 kidney gone or a Cornea missing. Those are the bad ones.

 

 

 

 

 

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Re: Why Socialized medicine will never work in the US
[quote=joe2baba]

it will not work for a very big reason we are BROKE.

caroline_culbert's response:

We should be paying less.  For example, we pay (via taxes) for emergency care costs rather than general doctor visits which.  If we have to pay, why not pay less with preventative measures that could be resolved at cheaper levels, i.e., at minor emergency or general doctor's visits.  The main reason the taxpayers pay more, for health related problems, is due to the lower income citizens that do not have the health ins. to visit outside the hospital arena.  We pay it either way, but the current system only allows the uninsured to receive the most expensive care!

there are 47 million plus without health insurance. employer programs are contracting. medicare will collapse long before social security

i have a medical tourism business ...i arrange for people to travel to india costa rica and thailand for dental and medical care.

the system in canada is very good for primary care. but i get almost as many inquiries from canada for surgical procedures as from the u.s. the waiting times are long and my clients have indicated that the skill level is not good. the list of medicines is not comprehensive.(this info comes from my canadian clients) the equipment such as mri's are few and far between.

michael moore's movie is serioulsy flawed.

i have friends in england that have had major issues in hospitals there ....one almost had to have her foot amputated.

bottom line somebody has to pay. that means us or more to the point china. we simply do not have the money.

the level of taxes in countries with socialized medicine is considerably higher than here. i dont know of anyone who wants to raise their taxes.

caroline_culbert's response:  I would be willing to pay more taxes as long as it includes me within those benefits.  If I get sick and my private ins. doesn't cover me, then I should be covered under a national plan.  This should only be allowed if we provide the same amount of funding towards preventative measures.  I only agree with this plan if and only if we keep the current system of health care, i.e, if we are ultimately trying to reduce expenditure under a socialized system.  Our current health care system is far from efficient.  Why not scrap it altogether?

i am not in any way defending the health care system here. it is much better in some other countries. i suggest you start a savings account and for $10,000 you can get just about anything handled in a world class facility overseas

caroline_culbert's response:  If health care is "much better in some other countries", why not advocate modeling their/its system?  It's all about the system.  Systems should be scrapped and adopted as needed, but for some reason, this country likes the stone age.

[/quote]

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Re: Why Socialized medicine will never work in the US

i appreciate your response caroline.

the biggest difference between us and the other countries healthcare is one of administration.

about 45% of the cost of our healthcare goes to paper work. this is why you never see an rn if you are a patient

they are too busy doing paper work. when i say the healthcare is better elsewhere i am  speaking about individual hospitals not whole country systems. as an example the health care in india is a pay as you go system  only 15% of india's population has health insurance. so you pay or you go ........somewhere else. the hopitals in my network in india are among the finest in the world. they treat patients from india as well as international patient. the international patients pay more than nationals. this belief in systems is beyond my comprehension. you are ill you go to the doctor of your choice whether tha doctor is in costa rica or miami it does not matter you are a consumer you spend your dollar where you choose.

because these hospitals do not have to fill out pages and pages of forms their costs are lower as well as the fact that the cost of living is much lower ....at least for now.

if you change the system here to get rid of the administrative costs a lot of your neighbors will be out of work. this is something most people forget. they also forget that the establishment of medicare and medicaid increased the costs. i see no advantage to adding more bureaucracy to an already overly bureaucratic system.

i advise people to save their money for medical reasons and when they need something major to go overseas where you will pay much less as much as 80%less. for better care. you can recuperate in a beautiful country and have have more money in your pocket when all is said and done

the austrian school should be very happy with this arrangement because it is totally market driven. people will go where the care is better and at a better price. i for one dont see the advantage of putting the health care system in this country any further in the hands of people like bush and cheney or obama for that matter.

you can get better care more cheaply caroline without raising your taxes or expanding the federal govt. i have taken advantage of medical tourism myself. i have had 7 dental crowns done since 2000 and have not gotten to $1000 yet.

i have had dental work done in the u.s. repaired in india because it was substandard here. the idea that we have the best healthcare in the world is a fallacy of the highest order. we rank last in just about any measure of heathcare among the industrialized countries except one................cost.

you are welcome to expend the energy in trying to change this system here or wait for obama to attempt it. what you will end up with is a worse system that will cost you more. or you can get your health care on your own terms with money out of your own pocket going directly to the provider. without the middle man of the federal govt which is subject to looting.

the choice is yours i have made mine

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By the early 1990's,  only

By the early 1990's,  only 10 percent of hospitals were private, for-profit enterprises.   Compared to the beginning of the 20th century at about 90%  (M.Friedman).       State and local governments have been running the show.      Joe, is there a medical trade union in other places?   Here we have the AMA, the most formidable union on the planet.

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Oh how I love these discussions!

Well,

Folks, the US already HAS socialized medicine - Medicare and Medicaid account for what, 80% of the health-care dollars spent?!?

The US system is broken BECAUSE of what happened in the '80's. The system used to be "cost plus" Then came the "DRG's" then PPO, PHO, PQRST and QWERTY (ok the last two are made up)

Buried somewhere here in the archives, there is a huge discussion on this very topic.

The system will not change because of the insurance companies spend too much money lobbying the pols... the pols are all lawyers, and gawd knows we need tort reform badly.

Sick care is what we should call it. we only seek help when we are sick or injured. At that point there is no such thing as "free market". I don't really care if St. Elsewhere's is having a 2 for 1 sale on kidney surgery. I want someone who will keep me from passing blood and a "2-fer" sale just does not seem like a deal to me. Nor would I care if I was having a heart attack, broken leg, (insert illness here).

Unfortunately, the "health care sector" is one of the last "industries" where we make anything. But, it shouldn't have ever become an "industry."

We already have "socialized medicine" our system is just broken.

There is no political will as was said before to fix the problem.

.......... now where is that "reset button!"

C.

 

 

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