Why aren't more of you (Americans) leaving the country ?

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Amanda V's picture
Amanda V
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Why aren't more of you (Americans) leaving the country ?

I just don't get it.  The news is all very gloomy.  The US could collapse - like soon - why are there not discussions everywhere about lots of you wanting to move to a safer country ? 

Or do you all think it would be just as bad else where ?

Or is home always home after all no matter how bad it gets?

 

ao's picture
ao
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Re: Why aren't more of you (Americans) leaving the country ?

First of all, the US is probably not going to collapse, just decline.  And if it does collapse, I plan on being around to start uncollapsing it right here with number one.

Second of all, it's unlikely to be a whole lot better elsewhere.  This thing is global.

Third, no one and nothing is ever going to push me out of my native country that I love except if it's in a box.  And that's true of the vast majority of Americans that I know.  If you don't understand that, you don't understand Americans.

With regards to the safety business, it's liberty that I care about, not safety.  After 9/11, it shocked me when I flew right after the airports opened up.  They were deserted.  I thought to myself, "If that many people are that afraid, we have some serious problems in this country."   I have news for those who are afraid.  Guess what, you're gonna die someday, no matter what!  Get over the fear and get your rear in gear!

 

Sorry Amanda, don't mean to bite your head off but I'm very passionate about this.  And if things get really, really, REALLY bad here, we may plan a mass flotilla to Kiwiland to take it over.;-)

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Re: Why aren't more of you (Americans) leaving the country ?

Because this is my country god damnit.

The only difference between me and most Americans is that I'm tired of hearing how bad it's going to get here, or what "they" are going to do to us.  I focus on what we can do to "them" and how we can save this country.

They are able to do all this to our country because they own and control 100% of the money in this country.  At any given point they can just shutdown the money supply and through a process of law, steal all the property from all the people in the USA.  That is the key.  If we take back ownership and control of the nations money we destroy all the power they have to maniplulate this country.  Anything else is just pure slave mentality which needs to stop, today, right now, and forever.

 

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Re: Why aren't more of you (Americans) leaving the country ?

Amanda

I have given thought to leaving the country.  I am a physician and even looked into job opportunities for Australia and New Zealand.  But when it came down to it, the pull to stay home is overwhelming.  My wife and I have two small children.  My parents, inlaws, and siblings all cried bloody murder when I even mentioned the idea.  I would do it, but my wife would be very reluctant to  take that leap.

Also, there would be a great degree of uncertainty in leaving to  a new country.  would we be accepted? would the new country be afftected by the crisis as much as the U.S?  I just can't be too certain about the future anywhere.

Having said that, we do have somewhat of an exit strategy.  Enough gas stored in the garage with stabilizer, passports for everyone in the family, and cash in a Canadian bank account. (we live about 2 hours from Canada)

Brian

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Re: Why aren't more of you (Americans) leaving the country ?

I love my home . . .  more than you can imagine, Amanda  . . . I live in the house that I grew up in, and I'll be 55 years old in December.  This old house is my connection with my parents, who are both long deceased.  But, I'm also a master of walking away from what isn't true, and what doesn't work . . . I've done it many, many times before . . . I've walked away from disloyal people, jobs without integrity, and false religions . . . (You should have seen my husband's face when I told him I was converting to traditional Catholicism, lol). 

I've thought long and hard about running off to another country . . . I've done it before . . . Then, again, I've had to fight, hard, to preserve my right to stay here, on my little homestead . . . . .. But, one thing that I've learned is that, once you start running . . . you never stop . . . and you just keep running, and your life becomes about running . . . and the fear and avoidance don't become less . . . they overtake you, and you become your fear . . . No . . . . I learned a long time ago, that the best policy is to turn and, not only face your fears, but to deliberately walk toward that which you fear, looking it directly in the eye . . . . Amazingly, the feared object no longer has power over you . . . .

And, the other reason that I don't run is that, this time, there's no place to run, and no place to hide . . . This time, it isn't only about me, or my family, or my nation . . . This time the sons of bitches are going for the whole freaking world . . . . and it's time to make a stand . . . . and, here is as good as anyplace to do that . . . This is the piece of turf that I care deeply about.  This is where I helped my father plant trees that are now 80 feet tall . . . . This place is in my bones, and I am in its bones . . . . There is no other place on this earth from which I will be able to draw more strength . . . . Humble as it may be . . . . There's no place like home . . . .

 

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Re: Why aren't more of you (Americans) leaving the country ?

Thanks you guys for the responses.  Ok I get it !   Just needed to hear how it was for you.  I guess from my point of view all I hear about is how awful everything is in the US (including CM site).  So that is why I was wondering. 

I hope you are right though.  I hope there really is no true collapse, ao.

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Re: Why aren't more of you (Americans) leaving the country ?

I love my home . . .  more than you can imagine, Amanda  . . . I live in the house that I grew up in, and I'll be 55 years old in December.  This old house is my connection with my parents, who are both long deceased.  But, I'm also a master of walking away from what isn't true, and what doesn't work . . . I've done it many, many times before . . . I've walked away from disloyal people, jobs without integrity, and false religions . . . (You should have seen my husband's face when I told him I was converting to traditional Catholicism, lol). 

I've thought long and hard about running off to another country . . . I've done it before . . . Then, again, I've had to fight, hard, to preserve my right to stay here, on my little homestead . . . . .. But, one thing that I've learned is that, once you start running . . . you never stop . . . and you just keep running, and your life becomes about running . . . and the fear and avoidance don't become less . . . they overtake you, and you become your fear . . . No . . . . I learned a long time ago, that the best policy is to turn and, not only face your fears, but to deliberately walk toward that which you fear, looking it directly in the eye . . . . Amazingly, the feared object no longer has power over you . . . .

And, the other reason that I don't run is that, this time, there's no place to run, and no place to hide . . . This time, it isn't only about me, or my family, or my nation . . . This time the sons of bitches are going for the whole freaking world . . . . and it's time to make a stand . . . . and, here is as good as anyplace to do that . . . This is the piece of turf that I care deeply about.  This is where I helped my father plant trees that are now 80 feet tall . . . . This place is in my bones, and I am in its bones . . . . There is no other place on this earth from which I will be able to draw more strength . . . . Humble as it may be . . . . There's no place like home . . . .

WOW JUST WOW I loved this read Cloudfire! Thanks

I have traveled all over the world & been in Ausie  Land  & New Zealand also. They are very nice countries but no place better than home IMHO. I have many physical things which would be very hard to reproduce at this age. If I was just out of school it might be different.

We are all interconnected on this small planet now. The world is all together in this downturn especially with Peak oil on us. It will be a new awakening about what is really important IMHO. Peak problems between different countries will probably not be that many years apart.

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Re: Why aren't more of you (Americans) leaving the country ?

"Why aren't more of you (Americans) leaving the country ?"

... Because there's no possible way I can move all the people I care about with me.

... Because me, my wife's, and my baby son's opportunities for the future being stolen, and I don't intend to let the people responsible get away with it and go unaccountable.

... Because I'm seeing so many things here being destroyed and many people making it happen, and so few people with either the ability or the will to be builders.

... Because I'm seeing the darkness in some mens' souls destroy a nation and a people with a lot of potential.  And if no one here fights their attempts to assume complete control of how the country is run, many more people both in and outside of the US are going to suffer and there will be no safe place. 

... Finally, because by all appearances it's coming down to "step up or step aside".... and most people I see around me have either consciously or subconsciously stepped aside, or are too paralyzed to even make the choice.  I see the direction things are heading, and if I step aside I know I'll be contributing to a future nightmare.  This was driven home for me when my mom, who was not having an easy time on all this, expressed feelings of guilt for bringing us kids into such a bleak world, and thought she had been extremely selfish in having us. She said there were simply too many greedy selfish people in charge, and without a hero to turn the tide there's nothing to stop this from being a complete disaster.  Words don't exist that can describe how enraged I am at the irresponsible power-hungry douchebags running the country (and world) into the ground who can send a strong, wonderful woman like my mom to such levels of despair; for this and threatening my family's future, they will not receive any mercy or compassion from me.  Anyway... I know there are many heroes out there doing all they can, but let's face it, they are so outnumbered it's depressing.  So it's up to those of us (who are able) to step up.  I don't think ''Hero" is an even remotely proper adjective to describe me, but maybe I can do enough to at least be a hero to my family.  

- Nickbert

(just so there's no misunderstanding, I don't feel indignant, insulted, or anything like that by the question. I've simply been in a dark place for awhile, and some venting on this subject is unavoidable)

 

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Re: Why aren't more of you (Americans) leaving the country ?
Amanda V wrote:

Thanks you guys for the responses.  Ok I get it !   Just needed to hear how it was for you.  I guess from my point of view all I hear about is how awful everything is in the US (including CM site).  So that is why I was wondering. 

I hope you are right though.  I hope there really is no true collapse, ao.

Hey Amanda, good to see you pop up here.

Seems to me that whatever comes, leaving aside the very real possibility of mayhem leading to my personal demise (or the demise of a good many people here in Yankland), it's our mess.  Whether by action, inaction or utter cluelessness (or all three), nobody else did this to us (never mind the rantings of the Joe McCarthys and other latter-day paranoid demagogues & manipulators/twisters of reality).  It's ours to deal with the consequences of our rapacious appetites and disregard of the future.  

And, in the wake of discovering my wife is going to need a hip replacement soon -- and the reaction within our fledgling l'il community -- I'm so heartened by the outreach of concerned people wanting to help that I'd be an utter ingrate to think of bailing out.  Most of our community are not on board with the realities of the Crash Course, but I now know that once they are -- and they eventually will be -- we'll be cooking with gas [as my Kiwi friends used to say back in Tauranga].  So alongside the despair at the magnitude of what's coming, there's an even larger knowing that at least we're going to stick together and try and build/rebuild something sustainable and righteous.  And just knowing we'll work together on that effort is enough.

VIVA! -- Sager

 

 

nb:  edited for spelling

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Re: Why aren't more of you (Americans) leaving the country ?

hmmm,

Well I will be the lone voice here. I am an American born and raised, from parents also born and raised American. I can safely say I AM looking at plans to move out of the country with my wife and possibly son (dependant on his age, and what he wants to do).

My decision to look overseas for a better life isn’t souly because of the serious potential of a collapse (those that think it could never happen are fooling themselves...no offence).

 I am looking at life as a whole. I love my home, but do I want to be working in a dead end job...or the way the economy is going....multiple part time jobs until I am 70 just to make ends meet. Do I want to stay military knowing how that can end up, as well as the crazy illogical way it is run (way too much detail about military to fit into one post, keep in mind I don't regret joining one bit, but there are some issues I have with how things are run). Do I want to be in a position where I barely make rent, or require AMAZING credit, just to get the opportunity to pay a mortgage back for the rest of my life with my 3 part time jobs?

Now, what about the fact that I will have my electricians license....true, I am in a productive field, also true, I can make some money working A LOT in it, but what happens if I get injured and can't work, and even though this is a possibility in any job, I would still have to WANT to work to the bone well into old age. Is this what I want? Because the way the states (and England for that matter) is going that’s where we will be. As Dr. M said, the next 20 years will be nothing like the last.....and personally I think it will be longer, and as long as we adjust now as all of us here know, it won’t be as shocking of a change.

I am in the middle of putting step two of my plan in place to get to Asia.....most likely the Philippines, since that’s where my wife is from, but weighing options. I won't bore anyone with the details, In the end, I know it will work like a champ though, and my family and I will have a nice self sufficient place to call home where I won’t need to work 3 jobs, 55+ hours a week in something I don’t like or enjoy just to get by.

I even taught myself how to build solar panels, wind generator, and even have some practice in rain collection.....and planted my first garden this last spring for practice.....

Loving ones home country doesn’t make a bad thing to find better, more comfortable living elsewhere. As global as this is, there are still better places one can go if they choose.

 

I guess it boils down to....'to each their own'

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Re: Why aren't more of you (Americans) leaving the country ?

CF:

Great post and inspiring!  I wish I had the same strong roots you do, but I am a "mutt" both citizenshipwise, culturally, and biologically!  I try to take it in good stride - everyone knows mutts are healthier smarter and more energetic - haha Foot in mouth

Anyway, I hear you.  I hope other Americans feel the same way.

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Re: Why aren't more of you (Americans) leaving the country ?

Yer a yellow-bellied traitor, One Guy . . . . No, just kidding Smile . . . . Seriously, your post made me realize that my zeal for staying had nothing to do with patriotism . . . . I feel very little connection with "my fellow Americans", as Dicky Nixon used to say . . . . . I don't share their values, nor their aspirations.  In fact, much "typical American" behavior disgusts me.  Even in the first days after 9/11, I was unable to whip up enough patriotic fervor in myself to quell my concern over the damage being done by the Patriot Act . . . . And that was when I still believed that some evil, deranged, religious fanatics with box cutters had emerged from their domicile caves to bring down western civilization as we know it . . .   

No, this is about my little patch of dirt, and the handful of people who are figuratively at my side.  As soldiers are wont to say, this is not about "my country" anymore . . . . if ever it was . . . .  This is about the folks in the foxhole, with me . . . . But then, that's not entirely right, either . . . . No, this is simply about what's right and what's wrong . . . . and about finally drawing a line in the sand, and saying, "This is where I stop running.  This is where I stop compromising . . . . If I adjust, flex, compromise, distort, and bastardize my stance any more, I'll simply be complicit in evil . . . . . . facilitating it, rather than fighting it . . . .  

This is one of those times in history in which we are called to take sides . . . . and those sides are not defined by petty labels like "Republican" vs "Democrat" or  "Democracy" vs "Communism", or even "Ron Paul" vs "The Fed" . . . . . . This battle is in much broader strokes . . . . . In these times, we can see with clarity, what the poor blokes in the interminable fox holes of WWI saw:  This is about God/good vs. Evil . . . . . And, there's a bit of both in every fox hole, regardless of the shape of the mens' helmets . . . . (That's how I managed to keep score in the old WWI movies . . . . by the shapes of their helmets . . . . as if that could tell me about the condition of each man's soul.) . . . . No, this war is much more subtle . . . . It takes a more discerning eye to determine whether the enemy is in the fox hole opposing us, or in the foxhole with us . . . . This is a battle fought every bit as much in our minds and in our hearts as it is in the physical world.  This is not a battle for control of our country, or even the little patch of soil that we call "home" . . . . This is a battle for our very souls . . . .  and that's one battle from which I don't intend to run  . . . .

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Cloudfire
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Re: Why aren't more of you (Americans) leaving the country ?
Farmer Brown wrote:

CF:

Great post and inspiring!  I wish I had the same strong roots you do, but I am a "mutt" both citizenshipwise, culturally, and biologically!  I try to take it in good stride - everyone knows mutts are healthier smarter and more energetic - haha Foot in mouth

Anyway, I hear you.  I hope other Americans feel the same way.

Hey, Farmer B . . . . I'm a mutt, if ever there was . . . . though not in terms of citizenship . . . . But certainly culturally, and biologically . . . . I have so many nationalities associated with my DNA that when I was a little girl, my parents taught us to roll off the list, rhythmically, kind of like learning one's ABC's . . . I still can't list my heritage nationalities without resorting to that little menomic . . . . and then my brother went off and married a "foreigner" . . . . No racial purity for us, lol . . . . .

Now, I don't know about humans, but I will concur that canine mutts are healthier and better tempered than purebreds, on the whole . . . . When I was young lady, I took off, working my way across the US, and back through Canada . . . . I came home with a mutt, named Angie . . . Best darned dog I ever had . . . . In the meantime, my father had gone out and spent a small fortune on a rare breed, a Bedlington terrier, having read that Bedlington terriers neither shed, nor bark.  Well, that Bedlington didn't shed . . . . It matted, unless you brushed it every day . . . . And, it was the only dog we ever had that we couldn't break of barking at the neighbors . . . . And, neurotic? . . . . Oh, yeah . . . . .

So, in the evening, when that Bedlington would be acting weird, and barking at the neighbors, and my little Angie would be calmly resting at our feet and occasionally coming up to get her ear scratched, I'd ask my dad, "Remind me, Dad, how much did you pay for that dog?", and then I'd comment about how fortunate I was to have picked Angie up, as an unwanted stray . . . . I was a bit mischievious back then, too . . . . Cool

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Re: Why aren't more of you (Americans) leaving the country ?

Well put cloudfire, and honestly I couldn’t agree more. In your case, especially being in the house you’re in, and what it means to you behind it....well I would stay too if I had something like that, unfortunately I don't. Thankfully though I do have a loving wife, and wonderful son, and even a couple good friends that are looking to move with me when the opportunity arises.

(Small background for those that is curious....)

Something I had to consider other than those big ones I said in my last post was where home had been for me, and is life sustainable there.....and frankly the answer in ALL aspects came out to an astounding no. I am born and raised in Las Vegas, NV...AKA....no water, no rain, not even good soil for planting. Lake Mead is polluted, and drying out, and well, the economy is in the dumps, and probably will be for a decade or longer there alone. So where do I go? What do I do? How do I support my family? Like you said, 'I feel very little connection with my fellow Americans. The fact is that there has always been a small group that see things the way I do, than there is another small group that is starting to see, but doesn't totally get it......then the rest just don’t care, and like I had said before, I chock it up to, 'to each their own.' in that same note I am still a SUPER sociable person, but well you get my point I’m sure.

Who is to say someone can’t take their stand from another country? More specifically HOW is someone supposed to take their stand without a solid living/livelihood to support them? In my case, that’s what I am looking for, my own form of 'stability' (for lack of better words) where I can 'take my stand' teach others, and live happily. That’s something I just don’t see being fully attainable in the states, or England, or even major European countries for that matter....they are entirely too expensive (beautiful, but expensive to live).

I'm am sure there are many that won't understand this, and I am OK with that. There will be those that want to know more, and I'm ok with that too, I love talking to people =)

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Re: Why aren't more of you (Americans) leaving the country ?
that1guy wrote:

Well put cloudfire, and honestly I couldn’t agree more. In your case, especially being in the house you’re in, and what it means to you behind it....well I would stay too if I had something like that, unfortunately I don't. Thankfully though I do have a loving wife, and wonderful son, and even a couple good friends that are looking to move with me when the opportunity arises.

(Small background for those that is curious....)

Something I had to consider other than those big ones I said in my last post was where home had been for me, and is life sustainable there.....and frankly the answer in ALL aspects came out to an astounding no. I am born and raised in Las Vegas, NV...AKA....no water, no rain, not even good soil for planting. Lake Mead is polluted, and drying out, and well, the economy is in the dumps, and probably will be for a decade or longer there alone. So where do I go? What do I do? How do I support my family? Like you said, 'I feel very little connection with my fellow Americans. The fact is that there has always been a small group that see things the way I do, than there is another small group that is starting to see, but doesn't totally get it......then the rest just don’t care, and like I had said before, I chock it up to, 'to each their own.' in that same note I am still a SUPER sociable person, but well you get my point I’m sure.

Who is to say someone can’t take their stand from another country? More specifically HOW is someone supposed to take their stand without a solid living/livelihood to support them? In my case, that’s what I am looking for, my own form of 'stability' (for lack of better words) where I can 'take my stand' teach others, and live happily. That’s something I just don’t see being fully attainable in the states, or England, or even major European countries for that matter....they are entirely too expensive (beautiful, but expensive to live).

I'm am sure there are many that won't understand this, and I am OK with that. There will be those that want to know more, and I'm ok with that too, I love talking to people =)

Yup, it does seem like that's the right decision for you . . . You may seem ordinary to some folks, but to us, you'll always be . . . . . wait for it . . . . . that one guy . . . . . who took the road less travelled . . . .  

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Re: Why aren't more of you (Americans) leaving the country ?

Two roads diverged, in a yellow wood,

and being one traveller, long I stood,

and looked down one, as far as I could,

to where it bent in the undergrowth . . .

 

Then took the other, as just as fair,

and having, perhaps, the better claim,

because it was grassy, and wanted wear.

But as for that, the passing there

had left them really about the same.

 

And both, that morning, equally lay

in leaves no step had trodden back . . .

Oh, I kept the first for anther day.

Yet, knowing how way leads on to way,

I doubted if I should ever come back.

 

Two roads diverged in a wood, and I . . .

I took the path less travelled by . . .

and that has made all the difference.

 

-- Robert Frost

 

That's the only poem that I've taken the time to memorize . . . . I hope that your choice makes all the difference for you, Ken . . . .

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Re: Why aren't more of you (Americans) leaving the country ?

Hi all;

         I was born and raised here like most- in the system.  asleep .  10 years ago I met my second wife and best wife, She's from Bosnia and survived the Serbian rape rooms and war with out getting raped and killed . We have a home in Bosnia and a apartment in Croatia (6 room hotel) could leave any second. My business partner and friend of 18 years just fled the country to new Zealand and his wife got a doctor job. He screwed his sister and screwed his parents for 100k and me for a 150k in the name survival. Think hard about the rest of the world and beautiful New Zealand there is no were to go . when food get scarce, no money ,and need some one to blame( Start a fire in a wood house and you don't put it out there's no place to hide) The remote countries are that way for a reason poor food growing ,no defense (guns) ,severe weather, rouge gangs, and   here's the     KILLER  FOLKS. WHEN THIS BURNS DOWN.   THE REST OF THE WORLD WILL BLAME US AMERICANS FOR IT AND HAND YOUR ASSES OVER TO THE LYNCH MOBS FOR A GOOD BEATING AND A HANGING .MY WIFES NEIGHBORS AND BEST FREINDS DID IT WHEN IT CAME DOWN TO LIFE AND DEATH in Bosnia. This is very fresh in here head and she knows where to stay the best place in the world !

 At least here if they don't nuke us or flu vaccine us to death,  we or some may still have a chance.

Sorry for the  ALARM CLOCK  truth.      Look what they did to Americans in Iraq when they caught them . 

 On a lighter this is the best place to live or die if I had to pick one its my choice and I have many .

 With Gun behind every blade of grass,its going to be a blast!  no pun intended!

Be a good American,    When they come for your guns and they will give them your bullets first!

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Re: Why aren't more of you (Americans) leaving the country ?

Interesting question Amnda, and one I researched just over a year ago.  I became interested in acquiring citizenship elsewhere and having a second passport to help open doors.  One problem is that a U.S. citizens must continue paying taxes no matter where they live and we are now subjected to U.S. tax snooping even in once private places like Switzerland.  

There are advantages in acquiring citizenship elsewhere and gaining a second passport.  Taxes can be reduced while protecting your assets and maybe your life.  This can be an expensive proposition, for example, you may need to buy land in a country that you don't care to inhabit.

Expatriation is the official act of giving up citizenship and it involves signing a formal document in an embassy or consulate abroad.  Expatriation may be “the ultimate estate plan” to save taxes by enabling you to stop paying U.S. taxes altogether.  Expatriation works best for those who have substantial assets that can easily be moved to a low tax country.  And you should have citizenship already in place elsewhere otherwise you become a person without a country.

For me the decision was made easy when my wife simply refused to seriously consider moving away from our families.  So I have to stay and I plan on continuing to be a pain in the butt to this government.  I protest at every opportunity and freely express my opinion that the U.S. has been usurped by the international banking cartel. 

I've helped other relatives protect their assets and have moved some money offshore (it is perfectly legal) just in case.  Now, my opinion is that this country isn't big enough for the people and the banking cartel.  They are the ones that should go and I will do what I can to END the FED. 

I think the key is for people to understand what our potential is if we simply issue and control our own currency.  Imagine this...instead of having a national debt and deficit spending, government could issue new money at a profit.  Government should pay for itself.  Income tax exists to pay the interest debt rendered by our debt money system - it is unnecessary and unfair.

If the U.S. would begin issuing it's own money free from government debt, no country could compete with us unless they took the same strategy.  Monetary reform is the key and our greatest opportunity to secure our freedoms and future prosperity.

Larry

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Farmer Brown
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Re: Why aren't more of you (Americans) leaving the country ?

Cloudfire,

Leaving the mutt vs. purebreed discussion aside for a moment, let me just be clear about one thing:

America is not just a place.  It is a set of ideals that celebrate and protect the individual and hold the individual as the source of all power that is ever lent to government.  Because America was founded on those ideals, much of the rest of the world has embraced them because of the success of the American experiment and because of the natural and universally accepted and yearned-for liberties they protect. 

Schools, hospitals and universities named after Jefferson, Madison, Washington, Franklin and other founding fathers are not just found in Smalltown, Anystate, USA.  They are found all over the world, and next time I drive by a public school in my country named after one of them, I'll take a picture of the nameplate for you. 

What I am saying, and why I am so concerned, despite my mutt-background, is again because America is not just a place, it is a set of ideals.  If America becomes just a set of ideals and no longer a place, I fear the rest of the world will suffer a spate of dictatorships, tyrannical rule, and out-of-control socialism or worse.  I am not saying we are all dependent on what the US does.  Certainly countries like Australia, Canada and others will hold their own.  Others, like the ones I am surrounded by in Central America, will likely see strong-men rise a-la Hugo Chavez, and there will be no "shining example" to point to against which to base a rallying call of opposition.

What I am also saying, is that one need not be a US citizen to be an American.  And one should not shun Americans that choose to live overseas.  It is American values (err - liberty, property and natural rights, the ones we were founded upon, not plasma TVs, wellfare, and crony capitalism) that are important, no matter who they are held by.  I stand by those values and will defend them anyday, and anyone that does so is an "American" in my book.

 

 

 

 

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Re: Why aren't more of you (Americans) leaving the country ?
Farmer Brown wrote:

Cloudfire,

Leaving the mutt vs. purebreed discussion aside for a moment, let me just be clear about one thing:

America is not just a place.  It is a set of ideals that celebrate and protect the individual and hold the individual as the source of all power that is ever lent to government.  Because America was founded on those ideals, much of the rest of the world has embraced them because of the success of the American experiment and because of the natural and universally accepted and yearned-for liberties they protect. 

Schools, hospitals and universities named after Jefferson, Madison, Washington, Franklin and other founding fathers are not just found in Smalltown, Anystate, USA.  They are found all over the world, and next time I drive by a public school in my country named after one of them, I'll take a picture of the nameplate for you. 

What I am saying, and why I am so concerned, despite my mutt-background, is again because America is not just a place, it is a set of ideals.  If America becomes just a set of ideals and no longer a place, I fear the rest of the world will suffer a spate of dictatorships, tyrannical rule, and out-of-control socialism or worse.  I am not saying we are all dependent on what the US does.  Certainly countries like Australia, Canada and others will hold their own.  Others, like the ones I am surrounded by in Central America, will likely see strong-men rise a-la Hugo Chavez, and there will be no "shining example" to point to against which to base a rallying call of opposition.

What I am also saying, is that one need not be a US citizen to be an American.  And one should not shun Americans that choose to live overseas.  It is American values (err - liberty, property and natural rights, the ones we were founded upon, not plasma TVs, wellfare, and crony capitalism) that are important, no matter who they are held by.  I stand by those values and will defend them anyday, and anyone that does so is an "American" in my book.

Aw, I thought the canine discussion had much more depth to it . . . Wink . . . . Seriously, all of what you say is true . . . .but, sadly, America, the physical place, no longer seems to be the domicile of America, the philosophy.  I hope I haven't come across as judging those Americans who have chosen to live elsewhere . . . That is clearly the best choice for some . . . . You, and That Other Guy, are two who have clearly worked this thing out, and made the best decisions.  I believe that you will defend American values where ever you are, better than most bloated, MSM-blunted, rock-and-roll-numbed, sad-excuses-for-human-beings, here in the states.

Truly, I do salute your courage and adaptability . . . There have been times, in my life, when I made similar choices . . . But, my circumstances, history, and state of life are different from yours, and my earliest comments in this thread were intended to apply to me . . . even if I didn't come across that way.  I think that the most important thing is that, whatever one chooses, that they take their stand where their heart is . . . "Home" is not necessarily one's place of origen . . . But "home" is the place that we will, by nature, most viciously defend, whether that place is a patch of soil, a cabin with a wood stove and little tykes in the yard, or just a place in our minds . . .

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Re: Why aren't more of you (Americans) leaving the country ?

Right on!  Cheers,

FB

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Re: Why aren't more of you (Americans) leaving the country ?

Patriotic reasons to stay are brainwashing in my view given that the US we were taught about is no longer the US, so I would not let those affect the decision.  Whereas personal story reasons, family reasons, etc. are precisely the reason to stay if they apply to you.  So I'd recommend separating the two and deciding accordingly.  

sager wrote:

Whether by action, inaction or utter cluelessness (or all three), nobody else did this to us (never mind the rantings of the Joe McCarthys and other latter-day paranoid demagogues & manipulators/twisters of reality

On the one hand, you say cluelessness and inaction are the problem, but you say people who are trying to clue people in and call them to action are "mccarthyites?"  

It would be easier to see if we had been attacked by a foreign army, but unfortunately this empire was built in a cloaked way...debt.  We were attacked.  We have largely been conquered as a result of our going along with the debt system (I agree with you here...cluelessness and inaction).  If the people don't get clarity on the problem and respond accordingly, game over.  Same thing when attacked by an army...better learn the strategy, operations, tactics and respond accordingly or game over.  

CM.com understands the problem and includes it in the Crash Course...the E of the economy...perpetual, exponential debt.  The difference is that the CC scientifically names it as a problem but sort of takes it as a given like the other 2 E's.  On the other hand, there are those who are trying to rally people to actually solve this E problem.  Exponential debt is not a natural law, a feature of the universe, like the other 2 E's.  This 3rd E was imposed on us by people.  Who?  Why?  What's the mechanism?  What is their strategy, operations, tactics to continue it?  We need to know the answers to these questions to know how to oppose and fix it. That's what your "mccarthyites" are trying to tell people.  This 3rd E can be fixed. 

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Re: Why aren't more of you (Americans) leaving the country ?
strabes wrote:
sager wrote:

Whether by action, inaction or utter cluelessness (or all three), nobody else did this to us (never mind the rantings of the Joe McCarthys and other latter-day paranoid demagogues & manipulators/twisters of reality

On the one hand, you say cluelessness and inaction are the problem, but you say people who are trying to clue people in and call them to action are "mccarthyites?"  

Whoops...I've been misunderstood.  The folks I'm referring to under the blanket of Joe M et alia are those who stir up passions about X, Y and Zed (for Amanda the Kiwi what started this thread Tongue out) and say *that's* the problem, *them* over there are to blame!  Those that misdirect and pontificate in the name of "patriotism" and the "free market", such that most people in this country have no idea what the roots of our actual problems are.  And of course if 90+% of the populace are ignorant of the problems, then a (systemic) cure is impossible.  IMO.

Viva -- Sager

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Re: Why aren't more of you (Americans) leaving the country ?

What a fascinating thread....... because I have given this a lot of thought myself. My wife and I spent six months in Nth America, and we consider the trip the highlight of our lives. When your forebears moved to America, they truky inherited the land of milk and honey.......  which is why the US finally became the world's most powerful nation. He who has the most resources wins!

Unfortunately for Americans, the idea that you were somewhat "entitled" has really screwed you all. You simply wasted the milk and honey, greed reigned, and now you are where you are...... Typically, it's not "anyone's" fault, it's more like a cultural thing. Like why did anyone think they were entitled to drive two ton cars that could only seat two people and had to have monster engines to make them move? I guess the milk and honey seemed like it would never run out, and now it is.

Of course now the milk and honey is running out globally..... so where could you possibly run to now?

I'm thinking out loud here.... bear with me, because I am thinking as a person who emigrated to Australia (admittedly as a kid) and had to learn a new language and a whole new culture, and really has zero regrets at my Father's decision to do so. In fact it may well be the only decision my old man ever made that made much sense!

Don't come here though....... the place is already in overshoot (Australia's a nett importer of fruit and veg, our water is fast disappearing, and our tuna quota just got reduced by 30%, just to list a few reasons!)

I got so despondent about our previous government that I was seriously considering moving to NZ...... but we got rid of Howard in the nick of time.

The other thing I've been thinking too, especially after some of the comments on the thread "Desperately seeking new neighbors" I started a couple of days ago, is that if you did move to Greece say (because that's one very attractive place mentioned on that thread), then it may be OK now, but WTSHTF in Greece, who's to say all those cute abandoned farms won't be reclaimed by the descendents of the original owners, and kick you Yanks out (or worse)?

After reading today's DG, I can tell you things are considerably better here in AUS, at least for the time being, but as someone else said, the problem IS global, and it's only a matter of time before TSHTF here too....

In the end, we really have only one choice, and that is to reclaim the streets and kick the bankers' asses or better still.....because it's all they bloody well deserve! Having said that, I'm sure glad I don't live in the US......  too many morons armed to the teeth scares the crap out of me.

\Nuff raving...

Mike

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Re: Why aren't more of you (Americans) leaving the country ?
Damnthematrix wrote:

What a fascinating thread....... because I have given this a lot of thought myself. My wife and I spent six months in Nth America, and we consider the trip the highlight of our lives. When your forebears moved to America, they truky inherited the land of milk and honey.......  which is why the US finally became the world's most powerful nation. He who has the most resources wins!

Unfortunately for Americans, the idea that you were somewhat "entitled" has really screwed you all. You simply wasted the milk and honey, greed reigned, and now you are where you are...... Typically, it's not "anyone's" fault, it's more like a cultural thing. Like why did anyone think they were entitled to drive two ton cars that could only seat two people and had to have monster engines to make them move? I guess the milk and honey seemed like it would never run out, and now it is.

Of course now the milk and honey is running out globally..... so where could you possibly run to now?

Mike

Yo, Mike . . .

I don't mean to get all bristly-defensive, on you, but I would suggest that greed, wastefulness, and general foolishness is not endemic to the American population, but seem to manifest in any society that has the opportunity to be such, without the constraints of an intact moral structure.  It is the human condition, not the American condition . . . which, in the end, supports your conclusion that there is no place to run, and no place to hide . . . The enemy is, indeed, ubiquitous . . . .

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Re: Why aren't more of you (Americans) leaving the country ?

Australia faces famine, expert warns

By News Online's Sarah Collerton

Posted 2 hours 52 minutes ago

Experts say greatest threat to the world is food production on land and in the water.

Experts say greatest threat to the world is food production on land and in the water. (ABC: Amanda Collins)

A food production expert says Australia may face a massive famine if governments fail to address an impending global food shortage.

A conference of food productivity experts in Sydney this week heard the greatest threat to the world is not climate change, but food production on land and in the water.

Science communicator Julian Cribb, an adjunct professor at the University of Technology Sydney, made a keynote address at the seminar saying there is expected to be about 9.2 billion people in the world in 2050, barring wars or major accidents.

But Professor Cribb says that population will create an alarming problem - there simply will not be enough food to go round.

"Basically what the world has not noticed is that hunger has been sneaking up on us for quite a while," he told ABC News Online.

"Population is growing and demand for food is rising.

"Governments have had it so good for so long - the world has had plenty of food - they have become complacent and ignorant.

"Climate change is going to get worse and worse, but the food problems are going to be in the next two to three decades.

"I'm warning now because it takes about a generation to develop new technologies and get them out broadscale. We need to take action now about these things."

Treasury head Ken Henry this week said that Australia's population growth is the biggest challenge to Commonwealth and state governments since Federation.

Professor Cribb agrees it will cause problems, and says governments must not forget future famine goes hand in hand with population growth.

"They have grossly underestimated the potential for population growth in Australia," he said.

"If you get a major collapse in food supply in an area like the north China plains or the Indo-Gangetic plains, there will be hundreds of millions of refugees cut lose so we could easily see 20 or 30 million refugees arrive in Australia over a couple of years.

"That's going to completely alter any plans we might have for a managed population growth.

"This is quite a dangerous situation. We may be OK for food, but if others are not, we will cop the backwash."

He says a range of issues have sparked current food production problems.

"Apart from the obvious things going on in the world food markets, there's a colossal shortage of water emerging because cities worldwide are pinching the farmers' water," he said.

"There's land degradation that's proceeded unabated for about 30 or 40 years now. We're losing land at the rate of 1 per cent of the world's farmland every year.

"We're running into energy shortages, we're running into shortages of fertilisers, and on top of that you've got climate change. All of these things are making the agricultural environment much less certain."

Professor Cribb says governments should be doing a range of things now to fix the problem.

"They need to focus on recycling water and nutrients, putting more science into agriculture to get farmers better technology, stopping cities from stealing farmers' land and water, paying farmers a better price so that they don't destroy the environment that produces the food and opening up free trade in agriculture," he said.

"We really need to get on to this. Australia is as much to blame as any other country for neglecting its agricultural science. Let's face it, this is what keeps the people fed.

"So if you neglect that, you neglect the first and most important thing for any country."

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ao
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Re: Why aren't more of you (Americans) leaving the country ?
Damnthematrix wrote:

  too many morons armed to the teeth scares the crap out of me.

Yeah, we're all wearing bandoliers and gunning down anything and everything that moves.  The same morons that kept Australia from meeting the same fate as the Philippines in WW2. 

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Damnthematrix
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Re: Why aren't more of you (Americans) leaving the country ?

That's a really stupid comment you know........

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Re: Why aren't more of you (Americans) leaving the country ?

interesting.......what happend to logical thought? Everyone is entitled to their opinon, even if  it is t hat all us americans are crazy with guns. Believe me, after living overseas for the past 6 years, there are many that believe that. The only way around that is to let it go, not get crazy and be yourself. As long as your not actually a 'crazy american' with tons of guns, then in the end the opinion will change through the people you suround yourself with.

Mike, you must have known that comments like americans all being crazy with guns was gonna get one hell of a response especially since it is such a broad opinion of over 300million people. I for one know I am not a crazy American with lots of guns, but then again, I dont take offence at all because I know the view point is out there, and two.....everyone is entitled to their opinions,  no  matter how silly and generalized they are.

ao, Mike has a point............great we helped out in WW2, good for us, but seriously, that was more than a generation ago. You werent in the war....hell, Im in the military and I wasnt in the war.......my own father wasnt in the war, lol.

Fights over which country is better is silly, and needs to be put aside. Try some logical thought on the question....I know I did, Cloudfire did.....and by all means we can ask eachother questions on the views.........even have a good debate, but lets at least be real and logical about it.

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Re: Why aren't more of you (Americans) leaving the country ?

I remember joe2baba hahahahahahaha'd right off the end of a post once. Screaming out on the ether, blunted on cynicism, sharpened on a life-time of factual arguement; fractious and dented by the so real stupidity that it'll take the ultimate challenge, removing comfort zones, to get all up and out of their slumber. It'll come from the end of a barrel of a gun, a 'boot stamping on a human face'; it'll come with a few hate-filled words; enough to still people, enough to coldly sit many of the confused down on a kerb-stone in their home-town, looking around themselves, asking, "why isn't anyone helping?"

Then the educated. We'll justify and clarify; express one’s position or opinions dogmatically and pompously as if it is absolutely correct. Speak with patronizing tones, supercilious, pompous of manner, especially at great length, and that'll be enough; we'll simply 'Pontificate'. It is the colour of the senses that shines through brightest. Bigotry will have a brand-new day to play at extremes in the sunshine.

Your neighbour. You know of them so far only with excess energy to fund their comfort and they you. What, is the question, would it take for you to steal from them, how far would you go with hunger before you'd kill to eat?

What frightens me most is the sheer lack of 'projection' that is so very needed. Have a good look around your home-town today. What if you could 'be' that someone else, that hungry beggar, that 'bum'; that solo parent pregnant mother of two, that distinguished gentleman walking by you in Italian hand-made shoes, the cashier at the 24-7. Don't for goodness sake assume even for a second that everyone thinks the way in which you think and act. They, all of them, act upon their own motives, either altruistically, ulteria or otherwise.

Lets blame a war our fathers, fathers faught. His eyes don't slant right, wrong colour, wrong breeding; his mother was a ... , wrong religious denomination, no interest in sports; doesn't know Nora Jones from Carlos Santana; Dylan sang out of his nose, Elvis , too young to die, too fat to live; mechanics with dirt under the finger-nails rubbing shoulders with Mensa subjects; problem solvers both, one expressed in actions and the other in words. Who's side are we for or against. It is all a social dynamic, isn't it.

The strong the weak the trained and the maverick, all of them, including you, kicking around on about 5 miles square of dirt and only recently found out that the planet has reached 'Limits To Growth'. How could you have even guessed. You're living within the confines of 5 miles square, how could you possibly know, let alone recognise what it is exactly, beyond that horizon.

Lets be honest, this is a political facade :- 

http://www.usdebtclock.org/

... both of them killing millions in one way shape or form ...
I see many distractions, one piled up upon the other, and so on and so forth. You can help your fellow man anywhere on this planet, but it is the odds that stack up, for or against. Each different in its own way, how on Earth can a true comparison be met from where 'you' are sat ...

... Oh, but we can scare ourselves can't we?

 
Gabriel Garcia Marquez once wrote, ' man's ability to forget is his savior. For if he were to remember all of the horrors of life, he would surely have little to live for'. Lets fine-tune our responses down to the least amount of words so as to congratulate ourselves that what we've been searching for has been found, at least within the moment. After all, it would be novel to live in someone elses shoes in someone elses 5 miles square, even in the attempt ...

 

I'm telling you stories, trust me ...

Best,

Paul

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britinbe
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Re: Why aren't more of you (Americans) leaving the country ?

Its not related to the US, but the thread reminded me of this......

Matt Johnson from The The and Pillar Box Red.  I left the UK a good few years ago and my kids have never lived there but this song has resonance with me.

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