Where's Krogoth?

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barrt's picture
barrt
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Where's Krogoth?

Where are you dude?

I hope you are ok friend, we miss your unique contribution, come back now ya hear?

barrt

lundsta's picture
lundsta
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Re: Where's Krogoth?

I second that........

joe2baba's picture
joe2baba
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Posts: 807
Re: Where's Krogoth?

he is gone and will not return RIP

G's picture
G
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Re: Where's Krogoth?

Yeah I respect Krogoth to, even though I disagree with him often. He had a unique and refreshing perspective, I always welcomed his responses.

caroline_culbert's picture
caroline_culbert
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Re: Where's Krogoth?

I miss him so much! Cry

barrt's picture
barrt
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Re: Where's Krogoth?

you know i bet he's here, just reading and not venting

although mayeb his is, under a new name, would you spot him do you think?

BonnieBoo's picture
BonnieBoo (not verified)
Re: Where's Krogoth?

See the "Hero's" thread and and the " My 2 Cents " threads....from my observations it will be very eveident where they went and Why...?

ckessel's picture
ckessel
Status: Martenson Brigade Member (Online)
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Posts: 486
Re: Where's Krogoth?
BonnieBoo wrote:

See the "Hero's" thread and and the " My 2 Cents " threads....from my observations it will be very eveident where they went and Why...?

So why are you here BonnieBoo?  Sounds to me like you enjoy fanning the flames of dissent. Do you have any other purposes?

cmartenson's picture
cmartenson
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Re: Where's Krogoth?
BonnieBoo wrote:

See the "Hero's" thread and and the " My 2 Cents " threads....from my observations it will be very eveident where they went and Why...?

BonnieBoo signed up, dropped in two somewhat unhelpful and inflammatory posts, and then requested that her account be canceled.  Clearly there's no intent to engage constructively over time.

Here's a question - what should we do with such drive-by registrants and their postings?

The options are:

  1. Delete their accounts as requested
  2. Delete their accounts and their posts 

This is important because I am bringing on a few moderators to help and I'd like to be able to provide some clear guidance so that they can manage these situations with my complete blessings....

My goal is to create a safe, fun, open place for posting and I really feel that some people take away more than they give, the current example a perfect case in point.

Diversity is important, but so is avoiding necessary distractions.

I will consider all points of view.

Best,
Chris Martenson

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Headless
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Re: Where's Krogoth?

He had "edge!" Kept the conversation lively...

I think he's not only still "just reading," as barrt said. I think he's still posting. What do you think barrt?

BBBooBoo's picture
BBBooBoo
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Re: Where's Krogoth?

Deleted.

Brandon's picture
Brandon
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Posts: 145
Re: Where's Krogoth?
BBBooBoo wrote:

How about option 3....listen to those who are not breaking YOUR web sire rules....

In this case, Chris was referring (very clearly, I might add) to a situation where someone has requested their account be deleted.  So presenting option 3, which in a literal sense, translates into "leave their account in tact and not delete the posts either" seems illogical.  I would not present this option either, since the user requested to have it removed. This seemed clear to me.

If anything, I'm SHOCKED that Chris assumed BonnieBoo was a "her"....SOME NERVE!!!Wink (sarcasm)

To answer your question Chris, I agree that avoiding unnecessary distractions is important.  I would say that I'm fine with drive-by posts at this point.  It is an inconvenience, but the users of these forums (as any group of people) must have the ability to sustain such things.  We do this by trusting our hearts as to when to engage, and when to keep moving (I intentionally did not say "ignore", because keeping moving is not always ignoring).  If the users of this forum cannot keep the ship afloat amongst the debris (and determine, in our own right, what constitutes "debris"), then we do not deserve to float.

Having said that, sometimes we'll put up the sails and keep moving through, sometimes we will stop and send out life jackets and paddle boats, and sometimes we'll fire the cannons.

It's a constant balance between leadership (you taking responsiblity on behalf of the community), and individual responsibility of the community (the community taking responsibility for itself), and in this case, given the current state, I say you keep moving.

Leave the messages, maybe even leave the account intact (as illogical as it seems, when somebody specifically requests that you suspend it), but it's more of your time spent dealing with things that I believe those in this community are able to get through just fine.

As you say, I reserve the right to change my mind on thisWink, but right now I say: let it go.

I appreciate that you took the time to ask, and regret that you had to.

Addition: Would like to hear others' thoughts...I am farely new to these forums and not so sure I have a complete perspective.

gregroberts's picture
gregroberts
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Re: Where's Krogoth?

Delete their accounts and their posts, if there is nothing constructive in them.

SamLinder's picture
SamLinder
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Posts: 1499
Re: Where's Krogoth?
LaFanze wrote:

Addition: Would like to hear others' thoughts...I am farely new to these forums and not so sure I have a complete perspective.

Please see my point of view in comment #23 in [Re: My 2 cents...Censorship].

Sam....

Brandon's picture
Brandon
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Posts: 145
Re: Where's Krogoth?

GregRoberts and srliner...that makes sense.

If you're looking to ban, is it possible to ban IP addresses?  This isn't perfect as most people's IP changes every once in a while, but provides more relief than simply banning usernames or emails...just a thought.

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joe2baba
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Posts: 807
Re: Where's Krogoth?

hi chris

i hope you are getting a chance to bathe now and again.

this is a tough situation to be in. i am glad it is not me

in your shoes.

i have been here for a while and the site is still very good but i miss the old days when it was a lot quieter, and there was more chris. but change is inevitable and i am still learning things here. i appreciate the give and take and the lively debates. the people here are some of the most passionate i have encountered on the web. they are passionate abut the things which are of the utmost importance to each of us and by extension the planet.

i have posted a thread on community which was an attempt to bring to light the dynamics of community. not many got involved. i find it strange that many would get involved on a topic like global warming endlessly debating the issue and not get involved in figuring out how a community functions. you have been very clear that you believe in strong community and this is what may be our solution. thom hartmann said the same thing in the last hours of ancient sunlight.

i think if more people understood dialog these things would not come up as frequently. be that as it may i stated before and i will say it again the forum is a boisterous and rowdy place. passons run high and sometimes a few will go over the line. it is your site and you make the rules. if were my site i would not have rules, i would have agreements. this would empower each member to be a resposible citizen of the forum. i would have each new registrant to agree to conduct themselves in accordance with the mores of the forum. i would outline in a series of guidelines what is expected and in return they receive an "ownership" that is they own their rights to post and with that right comes certain resposibilities.

distractions are harder to quantify. who is going to be the arbiter of what is a distraction? some investors two years ago might have thought peter schiff was a distraction. there are many threads i check in on and do not follow because to me they are a distraction. as long as people do not use profanity and abusive behavior i think everything is open season for dialog. in my opinion if it were my site i would not get personally involved in the debates such as have come up lately. if i were on staff volunteer or in any way involved with the administration of the site i would be very circumspect in getting involved in the debates. i would try to remain nuetral. not saying i would succeed as i have been known to get passionate about an issue or two and i am not suggesting that anyone not engage , just to have a higher level of awareness.

what to do when people go over the line is your decision or the moderator if you can find one or two. i do not believe anyone really went over the line. i did not read any profanity or abusive language. maybe some was deleted. i would have to look at the contributions people make. it would seem that (without rehashing the sordid details) erik has made great contributions to this project. it would also seem that krogoth made great contributions in a very different way. his voice is obviously missed. maybe a back channel email would be the best solution. ie just ask the participants in a "distraction to take it elsewhere. i certainly could see certain people in the global warming debate going back channel.

again it is your site and you do what you feel is right  if it ever comes down that i do not feel it is working for me i will go elsewher. like a tv you can always change the channel.

om shanti

joe

ps chaos is good not to be feared but to be embraced, it is out of chaos that order arises.

Brandon's picture
Brandon
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Re: Where's Krogoth?
joe2baba wrote:

i have posted a thread on community which was an attempt to bring to light the dynamics of community. not many got involved. i find it strange that many would get involved on a topic like global warming endlessly debating the issue and not get involved in figuring out how a community functions.

Good point...I read through it before but didn't participate...I'll take another stab at it.  Thanks for bringing that up Joe.

kowanalynn's picture
kowanalynn
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Re: Where's Krogoth?

Chris

My suggestion is that you very explicitly define your purpose for having this site, and for having these forums.

Any posts that do not forward the purposes stated should be deleted, with an explanation to the person posting.

I am here because I want to be exposed to vital information in a timely manner, that could influence my future. 

I personally find that the emotional quibbling that I have observed in posts here and there, to be distracting to the important issues, and denigrades the site.

Posts that share new sources of information, and offer solutions to problems posed are very valuable.

Chris, you are doing an amazing job - there will always be a percentage (very small) in any group that find fault and want to leave, due to their real or imagined injustices.

The important thing is to stick to doing what you are here to do, and ensure posts that do not align with your purposes are be removed, to preserve the highest value of this site.

Lynn

 

 

 

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kowanalynn
Status: Member (Offline)
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Posts: 9
Re: Where's Krogoth?

Chris

My suggestion is that you very explicitly define your purpose for having this site, and for having these forums.

Any posts that do not forward the purposes stated should be deleted, with an explanation to the person posting.

I am here because I want to be exposed to vital information in a timely manner, that could influence my future. 

I personally find that the emotional quibbling that I have observed in posts here and there, to be distracting to the important issues, and denigrades the site.

Posts that share new sources of information, and offer solutions to problems posed are very valuable.

Chris, you are doing an amazing job - there will always be a percentage (very small) in any group that find fault and want to leave, due to their real or imagined injustices.

The important thing is to stick to doing what you are here to do, and ensure posts that do not align with your purposes are be removed, to preserve the highest value of this site.

Lynn

 

 

 

caroline_culbert's picture
caroline_culbert
Status: Platinum Member (Offline)
Joined: Oct 2 2008
Posts: 624
Re: Where's Krogoth?
cmartenson wrote:
BonnieBoo wrote:

See the "Hero's" thread and and the " My 2 Cents " threads....from my observations it will be very eveident where they went and Why...?

BonnieBoo signed up, dropped in two somewhat unhelpful and inflammatory posts, and then requested that her account be canceled.  Clearly there's no intent to engage constructively over time.

Here's a question - what should we do with such drive-by registrants and their postings?

The options are:

  1. Delete their accounts as requested
  2. Delete their accounts and their posts 

This is important because I am bringing on a few moderators to help and I'd like to be able to provide some clear guidance so that they can manage these situations with my complete blessings....

My goal is to create a safe, fun, open place for posting and I really feel that some people take away more than they give, the current example a perfect case in point.

Diversity is important, but so is avoiding necessary distractions.

I will consider all points of view.

Best,
Chris Martenson

I don't think we should do either except in the case of freeing up memory and space if needed.  If someone is going to spend time registering (for whatever reason), they must have a reason for it.  Let's give them the benefit of the doubt.  Most of us should have enough sense to either ignore agitators and/or sever our communication relationship with them.  If we are unable to do this then I think it says more about us, than them.  I say give them six months and state, on the sign up page, that "inactive accounts older than six months will be automatically removed from the site and/or any archived entries" (or however you want to do it).

ckessel's picture
ckessel
Status: Martenson Brigade Member (Online)
Joined: Nov 12 2008
Posts: 486
Re: Where's Krogoth?
kowanalynn wrote:

I personally find that the emotional quibbling that I have observed in posts here and there, to be distracting to the important issues, and denigrades the site.

Posts that share new sources of information, and offer solutions to problems posed are very valuable.

Chris, you are doing an amazing job - there will always be a percentage (very small) in any group that find fault and want to leave, due to their real or imagined injustices.

The important thing is to stick to doing what you are here to do, and ensure posts that do not align with your purposes are be removed, to preserve the highest value of this site.

Lynn

The above summarizes my opinions very well and I agree with Lynns recommendation.

ckessel's picture
ckessel
Status: Martenson Brigade Member (Online)
Joined: Nov 12 2008
Posts: 486
Re: Where's Krogoth?
barrt wrote:

you know i bet he's here, just reading and not venting

although mayeb his is, under a new name, would you spot him do you think?

Barrt,

Does it seem curious to you that Krogoth would decide to remove himself from the site just because someone else made a donation and used their real name? 

He was not being asked to reveal his identity or to pay anything but his upset seemed to be that another was doing so and that CM chose to acknowledge those efforts. 

That it would cause him such an upset tells me their is more to that story than maybe this site needs. Just a thought.

Coop

barrt's picture
barrt
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Joined: Aug 25 2008
Posts: 171
Re: Where's Krogoth?

I believe very passionately in FREEDOM and TRUTH, i think a lack of these two things are what has got the world into this mess, therefore what we need is more of both, IMHO anyway

So, don't delete any posts, lunatics and fools must also be heard (the chaos part of Joe's community building) and what's a profanity amongst intelligent adults?

we need freedom badly, including freedom to swear, freedom to be an idiot, freedom to upset people, as long as the community have the freedom to slap you down, to ignore or ostracise you. Only that way can we find true community without tyrants or unjust laws, right Joe?

and coop from what i understand, Krogoth didn't leave for those reasons but because one of his posts (probably a little abusive) was deleted. I think that was a mistake, if it was that vile a post then the community would have chased him off

Freedom, Truth, Love, Peace, Laughter, in that order please Wink

Love you guys x

barrt

oh and P.S, perhaps one of these drive bys is the big K, i would be very suprised if hes not lurking around, theres no way a guy like him could resist

Hi Krogoth! come back dude, we miss you Cry

ckessel's picture
ckessel
Status: Martenson Brigade Member (Online)
Joined: Nov 12 2008
Posts: 486
Re: Where's Krogoth?
barrt wrote:

I believe very passionately in FREEDOM and TRUTH, i think a lack of these two things are what has got the world into this mess, therefore what we need is more of both, IMHO anyway

So, don't delete any posts, lunatics and fools must also be heard (the chaos part of Joe's community building) and what's a profanity amongst intelligent adults?

we need freedom badly, including freedom to swear, freedom to be an idiot, freedom to upset people, as long as the community have the freedom to slap you down, to ignore or ostracise you. Only that way can we find true community without tyrants or unjust laws, right Joe?

and coop from what i understand, Krogoth didn't leave for those reasons but because one of his posts (probably a little abusive) was deleted. I think that was a mistake, if it was that vile a post then the community would have chased him off

Freedom, Truth, Love, Peace, Laughter, in that order please Wink

Love you guys x

barrt

oh and P.S, perhaps one of these drive bys is the big K, i would be very suprised if hes not lurking around, theres no way a guy like him could resist

Hi Krogoth! come back dude, we miss you Cry

Barrt,

Well that makes somewhat more sense as for his reasons. Thanks for the viewpoint.

I also think that in addition to the points you mention above that there are two key points that could be added.

1) Knowledge

2) Responsility

They are not independent in that with an increase in knowledge (as one might gain from this site) there is also a corresponding increase in the level of responsibility that a person would have to take to keep it available to others.

If CM did not shoulder that responsibility then there is a good likelyhood the site could degenerate into some sort of reality show where members would be spending the majority of effort simply bickering. My point here is that the Knowledge that CM has taken the time and effort to make available to all also entitles (requires) him to take the level of responsibility to keep it clean and available. He does this when the membership fails to do so themselves.

Liken it to a parent managing the household. When the kids don't take responsibility to keep from fighting with each other the parents have to step in. Failure to do so creates an obvious mess. The kids don't like the disipline and sometimes go through all manner of emotions. Let's help CM not have to change our diapers as he is also trying to educate.  (WINK)

Coop

caroline_culbert's picture
caroline_culbert
Status: Platinum Member (Offline)
Joined: Oct 2 2008
Posts: 624
Re: Where's Krogoth?
ckessel wrote:
barrt wrote:

I believe very passionately in FREEDOM and TRUTH, i think a lack of these two things are what has got the world into this mess, therefore what we need is more of both, IMHO anyway

So, don't delete any posts, lunatics and fools must also be heard (the chaos part of Joe's community building) and what's a profanity amongst intelligent adults?

we need freedom badly, including freedom to swear, freedom to be an idiot, freedom to upset people, as long as the community have the freedom to slap you down, to ignore or ostracise you. Only that way can we find true community without tyrants or unjust laws, right Joe?

and coop from what i understand, Krogoth didn't leave for those reasons but because one of his posts (probably a little abusive) was deleted. I think that was a mistake, if it was that vile a post then the community would have chased him off

Freedom, Truth, Love, Peace, Laughter, in that order please Wink

Love you guys x

barrt

oh and P.S, perhaps one of these drive bys is the big K, i would be very suprised if hes not lurking around, theres no way a guy like him could resist

Hi Krogoth! come back dude, we miss you Cry

Liken it to a parent managing the household. When the kids don't take responsibility to keep from fighting with each other the parents have to step in. Failure to do so creates an obvious mess. The kids don't like the disipline and sometimes go through all manner of emotions. Let's help CM not have to change our diapers as he is also trying to educate.  (WINK)

Coop

Why not let the kids resolve their own problems?  Why intercede when they're "fighting/arguing"?  Of course this leads to:  Many of us have the ability to restrain ourselves (and others) when needed.  Likewise we can also BE humbled by others and it does not necessarily have to be Chris.  Let's not assume that he will change our diapers...

caroline_culbert's picture
caroline_culbert
Status: Platinum Member (Offline)
Joined: Oct 2 2008
Posts: 624
Re: Where's Krogoth?

CoolHas anyone seen Krogoth?  Maybe he's on vacation!!Cool

YellK...r...o..G..O...T...H..!...!

jrf29's picture
jrf29
Status: Gold Member (Offline)
Joined: Apr 18 2008
Posts: 453
Re: Where's Krogoth?

I propose a middle road as far as post deletion.  I think that there is a delicate balance to be struck. 

Deleting any post quick as a wink merely because it injects a a point of view that is loud and dissenting can lead very rapidly to outright censorship.  Communities have an ever-present tendency to turn inward, if one is not careful.  But we're not here to sit around agreeing with each other all day!  New readers, if they are not brain-dead, can be expected to come here with some big questions and some strong ideas.  "Chris Martenson's a quack!" might be one of them.  These ideas must be heard, if they are expressed intelligently, and respectfully.

On the other hand, this website exists to discuss serious issues, and any good conversation requires some degree of protection in order to flourish.  A conversation that is constantly reset to the "lowest-common-deominator-setting" can never make progress, and those who used to be interested in furthering the dialogue will become discouraged and move on.  It is difficult to make progress when there's some guy in the background constantly shouting:  "Jon is an %&*@!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" or "Buy my product which I'm going to advertise right now..."  As this website gets bigger, we will experience more and more of those kinds of posts.

If a comment has any possible redeeming intellectual value, then it has a right to be here.  If someody makes a logically constructed statement with a beginning, a middle, and an end; with a premise, an argument, evidence, and a conclusion, and if the words are not lewd, vulgar, profane, or uncivil, or else so completely off topic (e.g., statistical analysis of deceptive caching behavior in tree squirrels) that the statement could not conceivably contribute to discussion, then it probably ought to be respected. 

On the other hand if a person makes a statement that can be essentially boiled down to: "You're all donkey's a**, and I hate you, and you all need to...." then this comment cannot ever lead to a positive outcome, because it contains no objective basis for a discussion, and the range of possible responses by the community is limited to:

(a)  A simple denial, or

(b) Further unproductive statements directed toward the poster.

Another poster suggested that the community will eventually shout
such people out.  But at what cost?  It drowns out the real
conversation, and it's a never-ending battle that we would eventually lose.  So instead of constantly listening to the back and forth of: "Hey, you can't advertise your mail-order shampoo on this website!"  "Can too!"  "Can not!" "Can too!" why not simply stop the problem where it begins? 

People who make such posts are not really interested in having a dialogue, so why reward them with one?

joe2baba's picture
joe2baba
Status: Martenson Brigade Member (Offline)
Joined: Jun 17 2008
Posts: 807
Re: Where's Krogoth?

caroline he is  in taiwan and he is not coming back here. it is time to move on dear

caroline_culbert's picture
caroline_culbert
Status: Platinum Member (Offline)
Joined: Oct 2 2008
Posts: 624
Re: Where's Krogoth?
joe2baba wrote:

caroline he is  in taiwan and he is not coming back here. it is time to move on dear

Cry

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