Where is the solution Chris

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Where is the solution Chris

Good presentation on what caused this mess, and how to prepare when tshtf....but you don´t offer SOLUTION.

So let me ask you again Mr. Martenson, what solution do you offer if any?

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Re: Where is the solution Chris
turtle1663 wrote:

Good presentation on what caused this mess, and how to prepare when tshtf....but you don´t offer SOLUTION.

So let me ask you again Mr. Martenson, what solution do you offer if any?

How many people are aware of the entire problem?

I'm not speaking for CM but my take on it is that his work is critical. Without enough people understanding the (entire) problem there won't be a fix.

We ourselves made a lifestyle change that involved an entire "new" way of living. That "new" way of living is actually a toss-back to the way people lived before the insanity of McMansions and massive consumerism. IMO that way of living, where less is better, is a major part of the "fix". Until folks come around to this any other fix is going to be window dressing because of population stressing resources.

 

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Re: Where is the solution Chris
turtle1663 wrote:

Good presentation on what caused this mess, and how to prepare when tshtf....but you don´t offer SOLUTION.

So let me ask you again Mr. Martenson, what solution do you offer if any?

IMO a large part of the problem is that too many people are standing around waiting for someone to tell them what to do.  Seems to me thoughtful intelligent people can -- once they understand the nature and the magnitude of the issues confronting us -- begin almost immediately to figure out numerous actions they can take to prepare for the changes that're coming.  YMMV, naturally.

Viva -- Sager

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Re: Where is the solution Chris

My experience in life is that most problems are way beyond what one person can understand or solve.  The solution(s) can only come from groups or teams, which is why we come here.  We are hoping to share ideas and experiences to help develop the answers.

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Re: Where is the solution Chris

The first step towards any solution is that we should collectively use less of the finite energy resources of the planet. If we can do this, and it's a very big if, then we can both make those resources last longer, and put some of them to use in creating substitutes. 

This can only happen collectively if we do it individually. Change starts with the individual.

 

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Re: Where is the solution Chris

"Be the change you want to see in the world" ~Gandhi

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Re: Where is the solution Chris
Quote:

That "new" way of living is actually a toss-back to the way people lived before the insanity of McMansions and massive consumerism. IMO that way of living, where less is better, is a major part of the "fix".

The system would've crashed in the 80's, before the mcmansion/consumer craze, had Wall St / DC not extended the system.  The problem is not mcmansions.  It is the 1st E, debt-based money and the exponential growth necessary to support it, whether via production (corporate growth causing the other 2E problems) or credit inflation (mcmansions). Once it stops growing, it must contract.  Stability is not possible. 

The solution to that is simple,but requires collective political action that goes against the most powerful interests in the country.  That CM takes no stance on that issue is possibly why turtle asked the question. 

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Re: Where is the solution Chris

Solution LOL….there is no true or absolute solution that I can see (man doesn't seem capable of living in the confines of physical reality). IMO Chris alludes to part of the solution is us to come to grips with a better form of sustainable responsible living.

When the plug gets pulled & the music dies I just don’t want to get caught with that deer in the headlights stare LOL.

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Re: Where is the solution Chris
turtle1663 wrote:

Good presentation on what caused this mess, and how to prepare when tshtf....but you don´t offer SOLUTION.

So let me ask you again Mr. Martenson, what solution do you offer if any? 

Your comment seems to imply that the presentation clearly defines the problems, but is somehow incomplete for not providing an ultimate solution.  If the solution was the same for everyone, and if it was possible to implement without a lot of pain, suffering, and sacrifice on the part of millions, if not billions of people, then perhaps you might be able to logically expect Dr. Martenson to provide something as convoluted and complex as a simple solution.  That seems like an awful lot to expect from one individual.  The solution is not as easy as solving a mathematical equation.  This problem is actually a vast collection of problems that involve abstract areas of economics, politics, sociology, and human psychology… topics that by themselves have no concrete solutions agreed upon by people who specialize in any one area of expertise, let alone have expertise in all of them.  If anything, you should be able to conclude that there is no solution; only a multitude of individual ways for different people to decide upon which approach is most practical and applicable to their own lives.     

Is there any one person capable of providing this solution?  I doubt it; moreover, it seems rather inappropriate or at least naïve to expect this as a condition for qualifying the significance of the daunting task of clearly defining the problems and explaining them in easy to understand language, as well as providing them free of charge to anyone willing to spend the time to educate themselves on the various aspects of the situation.  Before a solution can be discovered, a problem must be defined, and the Crash Course defines the problems with more clarity than any other production I’ve ever encountered.  The blogs provide for solutions or alternatives to standard ways of life that we all have access to and the ability to choose which we want to further explore. 

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Re: Where is the solution Chris

The point i am trying to make is that without solution you can only extend your own failure by taking measures against the possible outcome, but failure is still inevitable.

It´s easy to market products and services based on the ¨underbelly feelings¨ most people have , but it´s a total different ball game to come up with real solution and to have that accepted up to a critical mass.

By offering solution at the same time CM´s advise would make more sense as to have some sort of defense during a transition period. But apparently he doesn´t have solution at hand which makes his message less relevant.

I know off one person that offers real solution. I studied his material for months (and still do) and his theory is the only one i found that makes perfect sense.

His name is Mike Montagne. www.perfecteconomy.com

Mike predicted our coming financial Armageddon over 30 years ago - to maybe the exact year - but no one seems to care.  An incredible achievement when one recognizes that they have also used "artificial sustention" (ZIRP) as he predicted, to push off the inevitable. (Thanks Larry)

But i agree with Strabes here, that it goes against the most powerfull interests in the world, it even goes against my interests to a certain extend but i am willing to make an offer for humankind in general. ARE YOU?

 

 

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Re: Where is the solution Chris

Mike will discuss/talk pretty soon here:

http://www.themicroeffect.com/listenlive.htm

Microeffect Listeners, On Saturday afternoon, Feb. 13, 2010, between 3 to 5 PM (Eastern), 2 to 4 PM (Central), 1 to 3 PM (Mountain), Noon to 2 PM (Pacific), Liberty’s Hammer & Anvil radio show (hosted by Larry Becraft and Tom Cryer) will be broadcast on the Microeffect Radio Network, and you may listen over the Net here: http://www.themicroeffect.com/listenlive.htm We will have 2 guests. Mike Benoit is a Libertarian from southern Cal, and his website is here: http://www.michaelbenoit.org/ Mike Montagne built this website: http://www.perfecteconomy.com/ The general topic of discussion will be the battle against abusive govt and the economy, and both of these men are well schooled on these topics. Please remember that the French helped in the American Revolution. If you have a question, give us a call: (208) 935-0094 Larry

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Re: Where is the solution Chris
idoctor wrote:

... part of the solution is us to come to grips with a better form of sustainable responsible living.

+1

&

McMansions != Sustainable Responsible Living

Also, I'd predate the problem to 1913 and the creation of the Fed or back to the bankers that jacked up Andrew Jackon's fine work.

 

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Re: Where is the solution Chris
Quote:

The point i am trying to make is that without solution you can only extend your own failure by taking measures against the possible outcome, but failure is still inevitable.

I'll echo Mark and Strabes.

Failure is the solution, and preparing for failure becomes the problem.
This is an individual/family task that when approached by families in cohesion, becomes a community task.

If we view this mathematically, we have determined that this situation is null.
There isn't a viable solution that puts us at a plain that is >0.

With this in mind, you can begin now detaching yourself from the situation by increasing your level of self productivity.
This differs self-sufficiency in that you can still use the resources that are in place.

Make the most of it. Dr. Martenson doesn't have answers for us as individuals. He has simply outlined the problem, and shown that the likely outcome is that without a massive paradigm shift in our levels of consumption / production, we will soon pass the point of no return.

Plan accordingly.

Cheers,

Aaron

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Re: Where is the solution Chris

Please not the Mike mess again.....

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Re: Where is the solution Chris

Romans,

How can you say such thing? Unless you studied his material and can disaprove his thesis you have no right to express these populists remarks.

Your message has no content whatsoever and is only meant to upset people. Go somewhere else please or contribute to the discussion in an adult manner.

 

 

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Re: Where is the solution Chris

 

Have studied his material...have every right to express.  Your own words are in bold below.

Sincerely, a grown-up

Mike predicted our coming financial Armageddon over 30 years ago - to maybe the exact year - but no one seems to care.  An incredible achievement when one recognizes that they have also used "artificial sustention" (ZIRP) as he predicted, to push off the inevitable.

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Re: Where is the solution Chris

Yes, Aaron, Mark, and Strabes are all correct......  we have to have the crash, we must wipe the slate clean. We must cancel all the debts....

This notion of mine was met with howls of derision when I first suggested it on this site in 2008, but just think about the debt destruction already occuring... it's merely cancelation in slow motion.  Once debts are canceled, we can wipe the floor of all the detritus and parasites (called banks!) and get on with switching to a sustainable society.

Decentralise EVERYTHING ( a la Transition Town), discourage breeding to reduce population, recycle evrything that has already been built/made, melt down motorcars to make wind turbines, the list is long....

And the solutions will vary depending on where you live and how you live. A CEO on millions a year will have to make far larger adjustments than I ever will!!  :-)

Mike

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Re: Where is the solution Chris
dtm wrote:

discourage breeding

I for one have no interest in bringing a child into the world at this point unless I find a very different environment in another hemisphere.  I think beautiful little human beings deserve better.  Once I became aware of these issues and how in my opinion governments are going to try controlling the inevitable collapse--we've seen it many times before--no way would I force my children into it. 

Now I just need to figure out how to adjust to a society that believes the only thing an adult has to live for is pumping kids through the school system and talking about their grades and sports!  I'm viewed as a freak now.  Laughing  (not intending to offend any parents; just trying to lighten up an otherwise grim post)

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Re: Where is the solution Chris

Good presentation on what caused this mess, and how to prepare when tshtf....but you don´t offer SOLUTION.

So let me ask you again Mr. Martenson, what solution do you offer if any?

Your question assumes there is a solution. Perhaps there isn't one.  Also, solution for what? Which problems? Energy, Water Use, Resource Depletion, Population, Fiat Money? I don't believe we are going back to the way things were and the prepartion for when TSHTF are likely to be the new norm:  Self reliance, simpler life style, less energy use, sound money.

Welcome to stage Denial? Maybe Fear?

 

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Re: Where is the solution Chris

Self reliance, simpler life, less energy use, sound money, a community of people who arent out to predate upon each other, this sounds like advance not collapse.............

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Re: Where is the solution Chris

It is my belief that out of all the problems we face the monetary issue should be addressed first and replaced with MPE. This will free society from such a big burden and the abundance of money that will then be available can be used to develop alternative energy solution and address environmental issues.

 

 

 

 

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Re: Where is the solution Chris
Sam wrote:

Self reliance, simpler life, less energy use, sound money, a community of people who arent out to predate upon each other, this sounds like advance not collapse.............

I wouldn't put any value on "money".  Community values will become the real tender in a simpler life.

Mike

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Re: Where is the solution Chris

Aaron,

Very well put.  I have just finished watching the CC again while presenting it to others.  For some reason your statements seem to summarize the situation very well for me. 

Thanks,
JRB

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Re: Where is the solution Chris

With all due respect,     before we get too far into the future with visions,

What should be  the government solution for  some of the   following issues that confront us today:

Pork Barrel Politics  -----   Refers to spending that is intended to benefit  constituents of a politician in return for their political support. (wikipedia)

Bail Outs   ----        this one needs no introduction    http://money.cnn.com/news/storysupplement/economy/bailouttracker/index.html

Subsidies  ----  financial assistance paid to a business or economic sector   (wikipedia)

Social Security

Medicare

Medicaid

Thanks for your input.

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Re: Where is the solution Chris

Carl,

I know it's easy to go berserk with predictions, however, if I may, I don't think any of the issues you raise here, Pork Barrel Politics, Bail Outs, Social Security, Medicare, and Medicaid will be issues in the future.....

Governments themselves may well disappear.... I don't know how quickly this might happen, but governments at all levels are already going belly up, so how can they govern if they can't even pay wages?

And I'm sure as hell not holding my breath that there will be any social security available in my old age, nor do I believe the hi-tech medical world we currently take for granted can exist when the grid's down......

Mike

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Re: Where is the solution Chris

Well said, Sager, Affert, and Set.

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Re: Where is the solution Chris
turtle1663 wrote:

Romans,

How can you say such thing? Unless you studied his material and can disaprove his thesis you have no right to express these populists remarks.

Your message has no content whatsoever and is only meant to upset people. Go somewhere else please or contribute to the discussion in an adult manner.

When Romans 12.2 said "Please not this Mike mess again" they are actually offering quite a useful bit of comment:  

Seeing as how you Montagne devotees have spent the better part of the last week hijacking thread after thread (regardless of how relevant said thread might be to any such discussion), it really is silly of you to pretend offense.  Let me give you an example.

Sagers New Thread wrote:

Hey gang -- 

I'm thinking of raising chickens this Spring with the wife and was wondering if anybody out there has a favorite breed (for egg-laying).  Thanks in advance!

Viva -- Sager

turtle1663 wrote:

Hey Sager -- chickens have a long history of egg-laying and many people discover there is value in their efforts, but if it wasn't for without solution you can only extend your own failure by taking measures against the possible outcome, but failure is still inevitable, even with chickens.

I know off one person that offers real solution and doesn't need chickens. I studied his material for months (and still do, sometimes while eating eggs [but not from chickens]) and his theory is the only one i found that makes perfect sense.

His name is Mike Montagne. www.dropthechickens.com

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Re: Where is the solution Chris

Thanx Sager-

I just spent an hour on dropthechickens.com and I'm still confused. 

BTW our Barred Rock (my favorite) has produced an egg every 2 days for three weeks straight since we increased her light from 15 to 18hrs

...but i'm on the wrond thread.

 

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Re: Where is the solution Chris

The solution to that is simple,but requires collective political action that goes against the most powerful interests in the country.  That CM takes no stance on that issue is possibly why turtle asked the question. 

I've tried to get Chris to explain his aligning with solutions statement, since I believed he really felt that the exponential growth of debt was a problem, and the fact that I'm advocating a workable solution, and all it got me was a warning that if I pushed solutions any further, I would be banned off the website.  Hence I don't push workable solutions here, all I can do it really just talk about the problem.............Why can't we talk about solutions?

Chris,

Is there some reason you're not even willing to engage in point to point discussion about how to stop the exponential growth of debt?

[Ed. note:  This is a misrepresentation of the warning that you were given. After numerous complaints by users, you were politely asked to stop posting boilerplate references to the Minnesota Transportation Act (MTA) in multiple threads which had little or nothing to do with the M.T.A.  You were never told to stop discussing solutions, or even to stop advocating M.T.A.  One of the prime purposes of this website is to discuss solutions.  We do not believe that misrepresentation of facts is the path to truth, however.  The original letter to you appears below.]

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Nov. 28, 2009
(Nov. 28, 2009)

Dear Thomas Hedin,

I am writing to you about your advocacy of the Minnesota Transportation
Act on the forums. First of all, I want to thank you for your
contributions to the forums.

However, we have been receiving a steady stream of complaints from users
for some time about the fact that the great majority of your posts seem to
advocate for passage of the Minnesota Transportation Act ("M.T.A."), and
often make no other discernible point, even when the subject of the thread
does not relate to the M.T.A.

A good example is your recent post in the "What Would We Do Without
Credit?" thread.

It doesn't seem to address any of the relevant points which had been
raised in the thread, and doesn't appear to make any new point except a
blanket endorsement of the M.T.A.

Our forum rules are loose in this area, and we allow and encourage users
to notify other users about important legislation or other political
initiatives as part of our general mission to keep each other informed.

However, the forum guidelines state two restrictions:

First, "[a polite user] doesn't monopolize the conversation, or pound the
table about a single point until others' eyes glaze over..."

Second, users are specifically directed not to make posts "in blatant
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Generally, users are expected to self-regulate so as to keep themselves
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In this case, we feel that you are not regulating your posting activity as
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user community is well aware by now that you support the MTA, and they do
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THEREFORE, we are going to ask and require that you please observe these
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(1) You may not talk about, link to, or refer to the Minnesota
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My apologies for the inconvenience. I do hope that you will still be
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If you have any questions or comments, please feel free to contact me.

Sincerely,
Jason, moderator
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Re: Where is the solution Chris

I know it's trite but the first step to solving a problem is understanding the problem. And it is my impression that most people aren't aware that there is a problem.  And you need a critical mass of people who are aware of the problem before a workable solution can even be discussed let alone achieved.

In another context there are some who don't even want to speak out in their communities out of fear of being labeled an odd-ball.  So the de facto solution is people preparing more or less in isolation.  Transition families before transition communities is fine except that preparation is easier if there is the positive reinforcement and support of the surrounding communitiy.   The sort of thing Coop is doing needs to be done first is what I'm trying to say.

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