What is money?

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Crash's picture
Crash
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What is money?

This is Icke's take on what is money...

http://www.davidicke.com/content/view/18696/48/

There
are two factors involved, one is ownership, the other is usury. the
people need to own the money supply and usury needs to be abolished if
we are to stop recking the planet and enslaving ourselves to interest
payments.

A good place to start is by joining a LETS:

http://www.letslinkuk.org/

Bren

 

 

Gregory K. Soderberg's picture
Gregory K. Soderberg
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Re: What is money?

I agree. Money is the difference between I owe and I own. Our medium-of-exchange has been switched from an evidence of wealth (ownership) to an evidence of indebtedness (owed). All money is now created by banks as loans to borrowers when they sign promissory notes pledging there collateral. 

If we don't borrow, there is no money. Only the principal is created. When the principal is repaid it is uncreated.A loan must be recreated for the money to exist again. While the money supply exists, the interest debt on it grows. However, the money supply does not. Time only increases the indebtedness. Time does not increase the money supply. Only more borrowing increases the supply. 

Beside the fundamental negative of servitude to the lender (Land of the Free?) this process also provides no way for the interest to be created that must also be paid. Every loan would end in default if it had to stand on its own. More borrowing is required to pay the interest on previous loans. Therefore the debt must constantly grow creating a constantly growing spread between the price of raw products and the prices of finished products or more often recognized as a loss in purchasing power of the medium of exchange. We cannot get rid of a debt by paying for it with another debt. We must pay debt with something that is not a debt. 

The LETS concept (own) is a good idea that needs to be taken farther so that it would be a medium-of-exchange accepted in payment of taxes and bank debts. If we all used LETS, the indebtedness would still keep growing as LETS cannot be used to extinguish bank debts and that's where most of the debt is owed.

We could simply create the electronic book entries as is done now when banks create money BUT, spend them into circulation in lieu of taxation or bonding (borrowing) as a debt-free payment for some form of production that benefits all society equally and that the government cannot use to hurt us with. That production could be public roads and bridges. Sort of like combining the Constitutional authority to "Coin money" and to "Provide post roads".

The people would get paid. They would buy things and pay bills including bank debts. Much of the money would be extinguished when applied to bank loan principal payments.  An excess profits tax on interest received by banks from these payments could be recycled to again pay for road and bridge (public not special interest private) work. Without the Excess Profits Tax the banks will wind up with all the new debt-free money. This process would provide a foundation for a fair and honest medium-of-exchange and enable us to pay the debt out of the system with no turmoil.  We would have state-of-the-art roads and bridges to accommodate commerce, etc. No new taxes. No new debt. 

bearing01's picture
bearing01
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Re: What is money?

The Origin and Nature of Money

http://mises.org/MultiMedia/mp3/NWO/02_NWO_Hoppe.mp3

Gregory K. Soderberg's picture
Gregory K. Soderberg
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Re: What is money?

All we have to exchange is our production, wealth produced by combining our ideas, raw resources and our labor. If we are to have a medium of exchange and because money has no natural productive capabilities like people, plants and animals it must also be produced and be an evidence of production exchanged, traded or spent into circulation for other production.

 This way, the money supply grows debt-free with a like increase in production. This creates a permanent money supply as the money is not debt but wealth. It does not have to be extinguished as does debt-money when the principal is repaid. It does not have to be reborrowed again as a new loan to exist. It's very existence does not cause the interest debt to grow with time. It has no interest due. it is not a loan that needs to be repaid. It works just like your paycheck. You trade your time, labor, ideas, etc. for your paycheck. Your produce. You get paid. Done deal. You do not have to pay back all your salary the day you retire (if you're lucky). 

 The focus should be not on what form of money we use but rather how the new money is put into circulation. It can be placed into circulation in a manner that is deceptive, fraudulent and ultimately destructive to the many and beneficial to a few or it can be placed into circulation in a fair and honest manner that benefits all of society and promotes prosperity. 

Our current 'financial crisis' is an unnecessary joke being played on the American people and the world either by extremely evil and gready people or by extremely ignorant people we look to as 'experts' who are walking around blindly and babbling things they really no nothing about.

The problem is liquidity and cash flow. The people do not need to rely on being in perpetual indebtedness to the banks through borrowing to have a medium of exchange. We need not be subject to booms, recessions, depressions etc. Our Treasury should be totally restaffed by Public servants not the private banking interests and it should 'spend' the money into circulation as a debt-free payment for building and maintaining public roads and bridges. President Obama is right to think of roads and bridges but we should not go deeper into debt to do it. We don't need another big Roosevelt borrowing era. We can no longer afford to cash flow more loan payments. Spend it. Don't Lend it! 

Build public roads and bridges with debt-free money. 

 

 

 

 

 

DrKrbyLuv's picture
DrKrbyLuv
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Re: What is money?

Crash - thanks for the great video link.

Gregory K. Soderberg - well said! You have clearly hit some core issues.

I think you would enjoy the links listed below - a proposed system, very similar to what you describe:

http://www.perfecteconomy.com/

http://www.perfecteconomy.com/f/index.php

yoshhash's picture
yoshhash
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Re: What is money?

I have participated in LETS barter communities in the past, but they
were kind of boring, people were starting to offer very lame services,
like advice and house-sitting. The systems I've seen suffered from lack
of growth. BUT THIS WAS LONG BEFORE THE AGE OF THE INTERNET.

This is why I think that it is LONG PAST DUE.

I've been hoping a LETS or similar type of barter system would come to life in North America.  (For those that don't know how barter has been modernized, it's well worth the effort to look it up.)  I see that the link given above is based out of the UK.  This seems like the ideal audience for organizing a barter system.  I would really love to be involved in one, but I think it would be key to have a strong web-based interface- not my strong suit.  

Does anyone else feel a keen enthusiasm to be involved in getting one started? 

barrt's picture
barrt
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Epiphany

Wow I just had an epiphany watching that David Icke clip, I had to pause it and go for a walk!

I had read many times those famous quotes by various founding fathers and other well known statesmen about the evils of the bankers or money lenders and how they threaten us, also those quotes from the money lenders them selves like "give me control of a nations money supply and I care not who makes the laws..." etc etc. and i kind of understood them

But now, i really see how they can confiscate all we have by increasing the money supply, so we all feel confident enough to get into debt, and then reduce the money supply thereby causing a recession where we cannot pay our debts and therefore they collect the collateral we put up for those debts!

Absolutely mind blowing! We risk our land, our property in return for some one's and zeros that they create with the press of a key on a keyboard!

Isnt it amazing that we accept that!

isnt it amazing that if money can be created that easily, why there is hunger and homelessness in the world!

Isnt it amazing that they have been doing this to us for hundreds of years! I now see that sooooo many of the problems in the world can be traced back to these people!

Isnt it amazing that we sign up to buy houses, not knowing how much they will cost us in the end or how much they will take from us for that privilege!

Isnt it also obvious then that this whole economic crisis, the ongoing bailouts etc was all engineered by them from the start to further their cause, cement their power and take even more of the worlds wealth and resources? I mean, these financiers and bankers that caused this crises have since looted the system and are now still in charge of fixing the system!

We are slaves, plain and simple

Vanityfox451's picture
Vanityfox451
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Re: Epiphany

Hi Barrt,

I can't blame you for being shocked and angry. It has indeed been going on for years. Theres a book I'd strongly advise you invest in called, 'The Secret History Of The American Empire', by John Perkins. He's also the author of, 'The Economic Hitman'. I'd strongly advise Googling up the book and Author as it'll open your eyes to an avenue of thinking that many entire countries had no idea was happening to them.

Take for example you've become the president of a small independent country that has oil resources. An American working for the International Monitary Fund (IMF) or World Bank offers you a loan to build structures such as roads or a power grid complete with fixtures and fittings. Remember, all loans are brought into existence as someone elses debt complete with interest. The loan to your country is set over 25 years. Now I want you to figure on only 10% of the people of this country benefit while the other 90% are paying 40% in taxes on a debt that will never be paid back. The loan goes into default over time and the country that gave you the loan then gets access to your energy (oil). If you get this and it sickens you, its been happening all over the world for years. Venezuela, Bolivia, Mexico; name a country and the tenticles of 'Corporatocracy' are in there somewhere. Heres a link to whats happening in Mexico at present alongside their declining oil stock :-

http://www.financialsense.com/editorials/salinasprice/2008/0620.html

...By the time you get to the bottom of the article you'll get how the money is simply 'Nothing' but electronic numbers on a computer screen. Epiphany? I've finally learnt how to spell it and you're living it!!!

Don't you find it incredible that every day living never brings up the subject about how money is created? I have another link which covers quicker ground than David Icke because it doesn't go off on so many tangents :-

Money As Debt

Hope you find this useful,

Take Care'

Paul

Gregory K. Soderberg's picture
Gregory K. Soderberg
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Re: What is money?

The LETS concept (own) is a good idea that needs to be taken farther so that it would be a medium-of-exchange accepted in payment of taxes and bank debts. If we all used LETS, the indebtedness would still keep growing as LETS cannot be used to extinguish bank debts and that's where most of the debt is owed.

DrKrbyLuv's picture
DrKrbyLuv
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Re: What is money?

barrt - and the other amazing thing is they have been able to get away with perpetual exploitation for all these years...but that's another story.

It doesn't have to be this way. We can take our country back - all it takes is the combined will of the people. Just as Chris Martenson describes the exponential growth of population, debt, etc., there will be an exponential awakening - the message is spreading.

Lord Acton said: "The issue which has swept down the centuries and which will have to be fought sooner or later is the people versus the banks."

barrt's picture
barrt
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Re: Epiphany
DrKrbyLuv wrote:

...but that's another story.

ok, go on, give it to me straight Doc, i can take it 

Crash's picture
Crash
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Re: What is money?

Hi,

 

Thanks for the interesting discussion off the back of my post, and glad to participate in creating an epiphany! Well done Icke!

 

There is an interesting (if long winded) discussion on the Simpol (Simultaneus Policy) website about Monetary reform where LETS are talked about in a wider context:

 

http://www.simpol.org.uk/forum/index.php?board=6.0

and

http://www.simpol.org.uk/forum/index.php?board=32.0

 

Monetary reformers seem to be a little quiet at the moment. I believe, partly because they don't go far enough in their descriptive stage (ie they shy away from the kinds of accusations that Icke finds easy to make) and also because they fall short in their prescriptive stage. The current moentary reform policy trend is to centralise money creation with the national (re-democratised) bank (accountable to parliment) and give it the sole power of money creation.

 

The rest of the banking sector, in this theory, becomes a broker, borrowing money off the central bank (at interest) and lending at a higher interest rate to the consumer.

 

While this curtails the banks debt-money creation abilities they currently enjoy and also makes debt-free money available to the government to spend on umm war, we the people still end up as slaves to the system of interest-bearing debt while industry and commerce still end up fighting for the last spoils of natural resoures to meet their interest payments.

 

So finding someway to extend the LETS scheme to cover a wider geographical area and to be accepted by the government for the payment of taxes would be a great start.

 

We also need to stop the madness of usury. full stop.

 

Me and my partner were thinking about this question:

 

what would happen, if tomorrow, every debt became interest-free and if anyone had all their loan re-payments to date taken off their origional loan-sum (ie if we reverse the effects of usury on everyone's debt)?

 

Basically we thought that EVERYBODY WOULD BE BETTER OFF EXCEPT THE TINY FEW who make money off interest-bearing loans.

 

hmmm...

DrKrbyLuv's picture
DrKrbyLuv
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Re: What is money?

Earlier I said: ...but that's another story.

Then barrt said: "ok, go on, give it to me straight Doc, i can take it"

The other part of the story is that our national history has been intentionally altered to eliminate any negative mention of our nation's ongoing battle with central banks - and the assassinations, false flag operations and the waging of unnecessary but profitable wars.

And the corporate media is owned and controlled many of the same people who own the exploitive banks. Their open and illicit scam can only work if the media and politicians participate and protect it. If people understood, they would demand the investigation and elimination of the central banking scheme - our non-Federal Reserve.

I am not a religious person but was struck by what a Catholic Priest has written in a book about bank usury and money:

Father Coughlin wrote:

What will happen if the present money system is continued and if the present policies endure?

1. Private individuals will coin money for their own personal gain.
2 Corporations organized for production, such as automobiles, steel and
textiles, will be under the domination of the private money creators.
3. The government itself will be dominated by the money plutocrats.
4. The press, dependent upon advertising received from banker-dominated
corporations and commercial houses, will continue to deceive the
people.
5. The educational system will continue to ostracize the truths of economics from our schools.
6. The citizens, weighed down by the unbearable costs of war and
depression, will be inclined to blame a democratic form of government
and unwittingly relinquish the liberties already won for the bare
necessities of life, which the plutocrats will allow them only at the
sacrifice of liberty. Dictatorship will necessarily ensue.

Without economic freedom, both physical and political liberty are
meaningless. Their existence depends almost totally upon financial
freedom. It is essential that we Americans recapture our sovereign
right of coining and regulating our money and of foreign coin. It is
essential that we cease paying tribute to the Federal Reserve Banks who
create our money out of nothing and lend it into use with an invisible
tax appended to it. It is either your money or your life.

You must act like apostles who have learned the truth. You must spread
the gospel of financial freedom even at the cost of life itself... Form
your battalions, independent of the leadership of the press, the
politician and the poltroon! Cast aside your lethargy!

In the name of Christianity, I implore you to participate in
duplicating the miracle of the Master Who fed the hungry multitudes.
This can be accomplished by insisting, by demanding the institution of
an honest money system... The money changers must be driven from the
temple of America. If we of this generation, numbed with the opiate of
indifference and cowered by the appeals to selfishness, fail to
dislodge the radical rule of the money changers, may we go to our
graves unwept, unhonored and unsung!

http://www.michaeljournal.org/appenC.htm

Father Charles E. Coughlin, a Catholic priest of the Diocese of Detroit, wrote these words in 1936. His words are on the mark and inspiring for sure, but maybe more amazing, few people have ever heard of him. He was a nationally known priest who had a radio show, was a prolific writer and fiery orator - once heralded as the second most influential person in America.

His memory has been effectivley erased from our national history - because he fought the banks..

His words carry all the more weight because we aren't supposed to hear them.

Vanityfox451's picture
Vanityfox451
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Re: What is money?

DrKrby,

I've been plugging this book on here for a couple of posts so if you've already read it - its also beneficial to anyone else reading this thread. John Perkins books - 'Confessions Of An Economic Hitman' and 'The Secret History Of The American Empire' both strike on the nerve endings that you're referring to when you state :-

"... that our national history has been intentionally altered to eliminate any negative mention of our nation's ongoing battle with central banks - and the assassinations, false flag operations and the waging of unnecessary but profitable wars. "

I can better describe him by sending you to this link :-

How To Destabalize A Country - Amy Goodman - Democracy Now

...open the 'More Info' box on the side bar..

Paul

DrKrbyLuv's picture
DrKrbyLuv
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Re: What is money?

Vanityfox451 - I read excerpts from "economic Hitman" and will sure give 'The Secret History Of The American Empire' a complete read, thanks!

Vanityfox451's picture
Vanityfox451
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Re: What is money?

DrKrby,

could you return a favour. I wrote on another thread and the subject was turned around somewhat and I ended up creating a kind of meme using film and dialogue. I note that there are many that are in full agreement with David Icke but, being English, my memory serves me well of a man who appeared to completely lost his mind on national television. I've followed his career since then and even had a friend who knew him quite well in his home town 'The Isle Of Wight' in the UK. I can't dispute that David Icke isn't caresmatic and compelling but, some of his ideas are just so off the wall he does himself no service in getting the important points he makes out to that general public that seems so blind to reality. I'm linking you to the thread here and would appreciate your comments even if you are in dispute. You'll also find out what steps I've taken with this slowly emerging financial crash in both the UK and the globe :-

http://www.peakprosperity.com/forum/britain-brink-economic-depression-say-experts/12118

Take Care

Paul

DrKrbyLuv's picture
DrKrbyLuv
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Posts: 1995
Re: What is money?

Vanityfox451 - David Icke is a bit of a dilemma in that much of what he says (especially about the central banks and the powerful elite) is spot on and verifiable by the facts. Then, we have some other things that Mr. Icke suggests; the reptilians and the alien bloodline for example - that appear to be bizarre.

Personally, I greatly enjoy Ickes and people who think on their own and are not afraid to be contrarians. But, I would be reluctant to use him as a source for reference as there are many who would discount all that he says as soon as they came upon one of his more bizarre ideas. He is a poster boy for the ignorant media who love to dismiss and ridicule him as a "conspiracy nut" - and to that extent he may help to postpone the great awakening that is coming.

 

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