What if......?

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Damnthematrix's picture
Damnthematrix
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What if......?

I've just been mowing, one of the less sustainable things I have to do around here.....  Sitting on a ride on mower with ear muffs on, going round and round aimlessly for a couple of hours, one is left to do a lot of thinking, especially after lurking on this site for a month or two.....  and I started thinking "what if?"

Anyone who reads my posts will know me as a lateral thinker...  stuff like 'cancel the debts' etc.  I like to question everything, because surely, there must be a reason....  like why do we work?

Why indeed do any of us go to work everyday?  Some must like their jobs. Surely the great majority of doctors like helping people, saving lives.... some like Medecins Sans Frontieres even do it for nothing (don't they?)

So why do we do it?

I believe we do it to put food (and drink) on the table, raise a roof over our heads to keep the cold and rain away, and pay our debts...  Oh and consume too I suppose.  Money as a means of exchanging disparately valued goods is often discussed here..  but what if we all worked for FREE?  I do lots of work for free.  Two community newsletters a month, the odd newspaper article, repairs to neighbours' mowers, give away eggs and stuff....  but now think about this...

IF debt were to be cancelled, that alone would be one reason to cut right back how much each of us would have to work.  Remove taxes, and there goes another day we don't need to work...  In fact, under such circumstances, it might be possible to work for free.  STUFF THE ECONOMY!  Close the banks, and Wall Street, and.....

Imagine this.  YOU are a gas pump attendant, or mechanic at a service station.  All day you work for free.  Gas is free too.  You come out of work, walk to the nearest bottle shop and get a cold six pack of beer, for free....  the people who make the beer, they work for free too, because they know they can just walk into a supermarket and grab all the food they need, for free.  The farmer works for free, he's out of debt there are no taxes, he gives away his food, which he can afford to do now diesel's free, no taxes, and when he gets home the fridge and TV will work, because he no longer has to worry about paying his power bill, the power's free too.... 

Debts and taxes are only with us to keep the super rich... well, super rich.  No?  Am I missing something?

In a sustainable world, we wouldn't need to raise taxes to build roads...  people who like building roads would do it for free...  in exchange for what they need being free too.

To be sure, some people would abuse the system, or try to...  but HOW MUCH beer can you drink if you walk out with a truckload of the stuff in the back of the SUV?

If stuff was free, crime would grind to a halt too.  Now I'm not saying I've thought this through completely, far from it, but I can't help thinking it's an interesting proposition considering what we are facing today, and that there are so many people here expressing much anger about the looting and pillaging of America.... and ecen talking revolution sometimes.  So, here's a calm revolution.  A new world order, the Matrix disassembled.  Just think f all the great stuff you could do instead of working...

Discuss. 

 

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Re: What if......?

matrix

i think what you are missing is i would not like it if someone like you owed ME money and said sorry mate but tuff luck
so i think maybe while you are riding around thinking on your mower you might ponder the person who is owed the money.

or maybe it is me missing something.

but i also have a rider i use it in the fall to make mulch out of the leaves and chop them up for my compost pile.

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Re: What if......?

Matrix,

Its a nice dream, but aside from joe2baba's comment on how those who are 'owed' the debts might feel,  in such a world it wouldn't take more than a couple of weeks before we soon realized from the rising stench that no one was picking up the trash or keeping the sewage treatment plants maintained (okay, 3 guys out of a 1000 might actually 'like' that work - but there won't be enough of them).   Aside from dirty jobs, there are numerous hazardous jobs that society blithely expects people to fill based on their low economic status and level of desperation.  

 

 

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Re: What if......?

But joe.....  you wouldn't need the money I owed you...  THAT is the point.

Re trash, We don't produce much at all here...  put out the trash can every 6 or 8 weeks, and trash shouldn't smell anyhow...  if it's going to stink it should be composted.

Think of all the possibilities for people like me to teach sustainability, FOR FREE, so you guys can generate a whole lot less trash.

The problem is the solution, a good old premaculture saying... 

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Re: What if......?

I think there are too many jobs that are necessary for our society to function, that are too unpleasant, dangerous, boring, tedious, monotonous, or any number of other negative factors for such a world to function.  Most people work because they have to in order to survive.  Only the minority of people have the luxury of making a living doing something they enjoy on some level.  It would be unfair on too many levels to even seriously consider.  I do envy your ability to think in such an optimistic and positive manner though.  

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Re: What if......?

But the idea you see is that you'd stay home a lot more, and NOT work as much.  Maybe one day a week...  surely if your job was unpleasant, BUT you didn't need money, you wouldn't mind doing something unpleasant just to keep the system going..?  I'm sure there are lots of people who enjoy their work but STILL have to do something unpleasant now and again, we all have to wash the dishes, or the toilet, or tidy up after a sick child SOMETIME in one's life...  I never said it would all be rosy.

Further on trash, most of it is food packaging.  If we mostly stayed home gardening etc, we WOULD generate a whole lot less garbage....  Garbage is a fairly recent development in human history, at least in the massive amounts we now generate.

Don't give up on me just yet guys...... THINK!

There must be a way...... 

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Re: What if......?

I think the law of supply and demand would prevent enough of the crummy jobs from being filled, while simultaneously creating an over supply of people wanting to make their living doing the easy, interesting, or fun jobs.

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Re: What if......?

This would never work. You forgot that we're talking about humans here. You know, the ones that kill each other to get into wal-mart? The point is, we're selfish and greedy. A majority of modern society has been conditioned to be materialistic - you wouldn't be able to change that with a flip of a switch. More importantly, many people derive happiness, or at least what they think to be happiness, by comparing themselves. Oh, at least i'm not that poor guy who has to work at the cemetary. Human happiness is more often than not predicated on human suffering. Ever read "The Ones Who Walk Away From Omelas"?

Now, this could possibly work in a perfect sized community isolated from the world, but not for long. It's a very utopian world that I wouldn't mind living in, that definitely could be done. The annoying part is, it won't happen. 

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Re: What if......?

Matrix,

You presume that everyone would be as altruistic as you - taking only what they need, creating food gardens for self-sufficiency, working with, and for, their fellow man.

Unfortunately, you forget that basic human nature is just not like that. Given the opportunity to freely take whatever they want, way too many people would take everything they could get their hands on to the detriment of others. Grocery stores would quickly be wiped out as would clothing stores, jewelry stores, furniture stores, etc. The world that you envision would quickly degenerate into absolute anarchy and would set civilization back to the stone age.

Methinks you went around and around on that mower one too many times.  ;-)

Sam....

 

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Re: What if......?

so we're screwed....  is that what you're all saying?

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Re: What if......?

>>so we're screwed....  is that what you're all saying?

Not really. It's more a case of: we all like the idea in theory - we just don't think it can work in reality.

Your suggestions, while altruistic and appealing, don't take into account the ugliness of human nature. I once read all of Ayn Rand's books and thought what a wonderful concept she put forth. Subsequent years showed me that Ayn Rand was also an optimist. Her characters exhibited fine morals and ethics and would always do the right thing. The reality of today's world (see Wall Street and the automakers) proves that her stories were just that - stories. The real world is much, much crueler, greedy, and vicious.

Futuo stated in part: "Now, this could possibly work in a perfect sized community isolated
from the world, but not for long. It's a very utopian world that I
wouldn't mind living in, that definitely could be done. The annoying
part is, it won't happen."

In one of Ayn Rand's books, she had a number of her characters slip away to a hidden village where everyone was ethical and the village lived on a gold standard. It has been so long since I read that story that I don't remember the name of the book (was it "Atlas Shrugged" ?) nor much of the details. What I do remember was that it sounded just like what Futuo described.

Maybe that's what we should all do - start our own version of Shangri-la!

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Re: What if......?

The trash problem is easy to solve. It's done on a rotational basis, like for 2-4 weeks you leave your regular job and do trash duty once a year, or some other dirty job. That will also be a good reminder of how much waste is being made, how much you hate trash duty, and how you will consume less to make the next time you need to do trash duty or another dirty job easier. Every able bodied man and woman 16 years or above does this duty. if in High School, it's scheduled over summer break.

 

 

 

 

 

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Re: What if......?

I wish I'd thought of that....! 

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Re: What if......?
srlinder wrote:

>>so we're screwed.... is that what you're all saying?

Not really. It's more a case of: we all like the idea in theory - we just don't think it can work in reality.

Your suggestions, while altruistic and appealing, don't take into account the ugliness of human nature.<SNIP>

OK, here's my fall-back...

At times of disasters and war, people who would not normally co operate that well end up doing exactly that.  I put it to you that the times we now face are somewhat equivalent... 

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Re: What if......?
Damnthematrix wrote:

But joe.....  you wouldn't need the money I owed you...  THAT is the point.

Re trash, We don't produce much at all here...  put out the trash can every 6 or 8 weeks, and trash shouldn't smell anyhow...  if it's going to stink it should be composted.

Think of all the possibilities for people like me to teach sustainability, FOR FREE, so you guys can generate a whole lot less trash.

The problem is the solution, a good old premaculture saying... 

 

I completely agree!  It took me a minute to digest this information, after my prof. suggested this to me (awhile ago), but then I said to myself... why not?

The only hiccup I see with this theory is regarding:

1. Self generators/initiators, i.e., how will I trust you to work (for free) after I have put in my share of free work?

2. Sustaining the labor force... what will motivate everyone to continue to work (for free)

3. Are we prepared to extend our free labor and work overtime (for free) to educate those who do not have any particular relevant skills (such as those in the urban population that need extreme supplements to education)?

4. So much of what we (here on this site) have learned is only by way of our level and type of thinking (i.e. much is learned through years of conditioning)... How do you transform lazy people into productive people?  There are so many whose way of life is by scamming people within the system.  How could we change that?

5.  How would punish and/or reject those that refuse to enter this type of system? 

6.  I still completely agree with you, and I think it will take years if not decades to infuse this type of lateral thinking into our education at school and at home.

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Re: What if......?
srlinder wrote:

Unfortunately, you forget that basic human nature is just not like that.

I disagree.  I think human nature is whatever we are and whatever we become.  If that mean we become, 'x', then 'x' will define "human nature".  I do not believe that we can ever encompass the nature of humans since our nature is not static.  I think we change and evolve, physically and mentally, all the time.  We may have once been beasts, in the beginning, but look where we are now?  We have transformed, even slightly, into thinking more outside the box.  I think that education is the primary reason for this.  My son is five.  He makes the most interesting "things" with his legos.  Once he built something that imitated Wall-E, but today he made something that "finds things after scanning it"-- whatever that means whithin his five year old brain.  He builds new things every day and sometimes more than five times a day.  What's remarkable is that he encounters no competition for the improvements of his imagination... I mention the above because many people find that competition is necessary for development and thus part of "human nature".  I would have to disagree (only within my limited observations with an only child).  It is very wonderful to see such a creature mold into what I would like to create.  He is still a ball of clay, and always will consiste of the building blocks of matter that he was born into, but I can mold him into one of the finest pieces of art.  So, today, I wouldn't be able to tell you what his "human nature" will be like as he gets older. 

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Re: What if......?
srlinder wrote:

Matrix,

You presume that everyone would be as altruistic as you - taking only what they need, creating food gardens for self-sufficiency, working with, and for, their fellow man.

Actually, everything we do is within our self-interest; even cooperation.... I have to say that "altruism" is a very misleading term.  I'll try to give you an example you might understand.  Now answer these questions to yourself and find out, at what moment, you'd consider yourself altruistic.

1.  Your child, of 8, is about to fall over a bridge.

2.  The bridge is 200 feet up.

3.  Below you and he bridge lies a concrete slab full of tall, sharply pointed objects resembling tall knives.

4.  Your child falls over the railing.

5.  You race after the child only to grab his feet.

6.  The weight of his body pulls both of you over the ledge.

7.  While still holding his feet you lock your feet within the rails to keep from falling to your deaths.

8.  Your feet are slipping because the weight of both of you is too much... if only you had the use of your hands.

9.  You have approx. 30 seconds left, to make your decision; will you both fall at a 99% probability of death, or will you let him go knowing you have a 88% probability of lifting yourself up to capture the rail with your free hands and living?

10.  At what point can you be altruistic?

--I say there is no such thing as altruism; now... answer these questions and you'll find out what the reasons are for your fate.

1.  If you chose death, with your son, why?

2.  If you chose to live, without your son, why?

....

...the term "selfish" here is used with no connotations---

...

If your answer contains anything regarding yourself, then your primary reason rested upon selfishness.

1.  I chose death because I would not have a reason to live it I didn't go with him... it would've been the end of me. [This is selfish because you based this decision on YOUR own reasoning...]

2.  I chose to live because he wouldn't have wanted us both to die--  [again... you reasoning was based on all you know, and that is based on how YOU feel and how YOU might think others think of YOU.

Everything YOU do is based on YOUR own thoughts and thus YOUR OWN reasoning which makes your primary reason based on self (or selfishness)--- even in the case of #1 which you believed to be "altruistic".

Selfishness is the primary or apex within the altruistic pyramid.  You cannot have altruism without selfishness.  You can have selfishness without altruism.

---------------------------------------

So I guess, after all of this, I believe cooperation is purely selfish for every one of us.  The better we are at cooperating, the better changes we have at surviving, and the better chance we have of prolonging the lives of our children, thus giving the continuation of my life and the life of my children.  Selfish?  Sure--  it's in our genes.

Good book to read is "The Selfish Gene" by Richard Dawkins.

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Re: What if......?

Matrix, you are right. A world without money is worth considering. Money is a good invention to solve the problem of transactions. Unfortunately, money is not a tool anymore; it’s an end to everything. In a digital era we have other means to perform transactions.

 

Considering that we can replace the monetary system with something else, a world without money would solve some big problems:

-         no more banks and financial institutions

-         no more financial gains out of thin air

-         no more taxes

-         no more bribery and corruption

-         no more theft

-         no more rent on properties

-         no more inheritance

-         no more power of the super rich

-         no more worries about pensions, disability, etc.

-         no more worries about loosing wealth

-         no more restrictions in promoting culture and science because of copyright

-         less lawyers Smile

The list can go on and on. It is still worth trying to find a way out of the system only by thinking about the above advantages.

 

Now, consider a system in which each person has a value according to their achievements (skills, education, amount of work, value added to the community, world, popularity, etc). This value is non-transferable and disappears with the person’s death. Let’s call it ‘reputation’. Normally it should grow but it also can shrink when the person does harm. ‘Reputation’ is a number that allows the owner to have some benefits over those with lower numbers. It should also allow more decision power.

 

What if local communities start organizing themselves and then cooperate mostly with similar communities? Do you think if we ignore corporations and governments, one day they will disappear?

 

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Re: What if......?

 

a nice idea and one that has been thought through at www.thevenusproject.com

(if you havent heard of that then you might enjoy www.zeitgeistmovie.com )

But this work for free idea i think will certainly have its day on a grander and grander scale, but as others have said above you soon run into difficulties, one possible solution to those is local currenices: http://www.openmoney.info/ 

Hey Matrix ill trade you some help with your websites (if you have any?) for some advice on helping me going solar? Cool

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Re: What if......?

We all would love to leave in a place where everything is free but there are more jobs that are hard that jobs than are easy who gets to pick and while they are picking is that their jobs.  If everything is free then you do not need most of the easy jobs.  A lot of things will become harder to do because who is going to work to invent & make the things that makes our life easy. Who is going to work in the factories so Matrix can use the lawn mower?   You can see that this doesn’t work with all the people that have a partnership and then realize than the other person wanted the profits and not the work.   This is what you have in Cuba to some extent.  No kids wanted to go to the country to plant and now they do not have food.  I have stories a lot of sad stories of why it doesn’t work.  People will end up stealing your fruits and vegetables so they do not have to work as they play games and drink their homemade wine and beer.  Who is going to make the clothes, shoes, watches?    It wills no matter if everything is for free because you will not have anything to get.  They will always be a government that will manage people times to do the hard job and they will have the easy jobs while others have the hard jobs.

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Re: What if......?

So what if 80% of all jobs become pointless? What if Damnthematrix planted NoMowGrass instead of mowing, didn't buy the mower, gas or ear plugs? What if Damnthematrix didn't need to spend money on anything other than a few items for living (some durable clothing, shoes, taxes on a place to live and of course, a computer andtv for entertainment).

What if we produce our own food and didn't need food transported to us or for that matter - need to go places so often and had no need to buy expensive cars, fuel for them and tabs, insurance and all the other expenses attached  to a mobile society?

What if we could go to college via a computer, used the internet for all education (other than a few social activities) and managed jobs in a nearly similar fashion?

What if we got rid of wasteful government spending, programs and projects (bare bones lean it down) and got rid of politician's golden parachutes, travel costs and  costly war projects.

The picture I get here is you COULD live NEARLY for free if you made the choice to set your life up that way. The problem is - no one wants to give up anything for that freedom and many jump into debt to fill the endless need for useless stuff.

EndGamePlayer

PS - Nice Venus Project and Open Money links!  off to read them . . .

 

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Re: What if......?

The reason work is so objectionable in present times is that most jobs are completely divorced from any sense of meaning, purpose, social value or productive utility. 

Imagine a small European village a thousand years ago.  A large percentage of people had a vocation - not just a job - that was vital to the survival and prosperity of their local community.  They built houses, they made candles and shoes, they farmed, they raised animals, they delivered babies, they administered herbs to the sick.  While class divisions certainly existed at that time, and the labor was difficult in many cases, I seriously doubt that people experienced the level of alienation and isolation that most modern workers do today.

Since the industrial and technical revolutions and the increasing specialization of labor that followed, most people have been involved in jobs that have no obvious utility or purpose to their own local community.  This has become necessary primarily because of a capitalist system that must continue to grow exponentially to survive.  An economy focused on meeting the basic needs of individuals and the communities in which they live would not be sufficient to fuel the growth required by the capitalist system.  So as the economy continued to expand, jobs became progressively more "abstract" and less relevant to people's daily lives.

This is one of the reasons that I recently chose to return to school and study acupuncture and herbal medicine.  I wanted a vocation that was directly involved in meeting basic human needs.  I wanted to engage in work that is important to the health of the community that I live in.  I wanted a job that fostered meaningful and real connections with others.  

Choosing a job that is vitally connected to real needs within my local community not only makes me happier about my work, it makes it much more likely that I will be gainfully employed in just about any economic circumstances.  I actually believe that as society reorganizes itself in response to the Three Es, many people will actually be happier with the kind of work they find themselves doing.  This won't be true in every case, and there will likely be a painful adjustment period.  But ultimately, I think the changes in the nature of employment that will be forced upon us will benefit a lot of people.

Of course one need not wait for this to be forced upon them.  Chris and many others have suggested that we all consider carefully whether our current employment is sustainable in a post-peak world.  If it is not, now is a good time to transition to something that is!  And when we do, we might find that we not only have a more secure job, but also one that is more satisfying and rewarding.

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Re: What if......?

matrix

dont know if you have read any scott peck but i think it would be helpful in formulating your thoughts on community.

your fallback is one of the conditions for community formation. once the crisis has passed then what happens?

the other mechanism of community formation is a conscious decision to form a community

peck delineates 4 stages of community

1. psuedo community

2. chaos

3. emptiness

4. true community

this is a dynamic process and you move continually between the 4 stages.

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Re: What if......?

if money is a store of value and a medium of exchange then i assume those lovely solar panels i will need on my house will be donated by you.while i donate what?

the transition to the utopia you envision is impossible. as the amounts owed by different people vary and if i need that $20  k right now to get my place solarized will not be available.

it is a nice dream matrix but it will not materialize in  my lifetime. i have lived on communes and it just does not work.

there are too many people who will not pull their weight it is just human nature .

i believe you are projecting your values (which i agree with) on a world which functions in a vastly different way.

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Re: What if......?

 

I don't think it would work *here* in the "1st" world. I've been to 3rd world countries, little villages, islands where things are closer to being that way. People who were "left behind", and may actually wind up being a few steps ahead of us one day!

The big problem we face stateside is we *want* too much, always on the escalator. In our world, housing/RE values go up, in the real world, you build a house and it's constantly falling apart, needing maintenance, and you have no mortage, you invest at the grassroots level.

 Less Leverage = Less distance to fall when you have a problem.

Aside from that, somebody has to manage the community, so I think you wind up re-creating bureacracy.

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Re: What if......?

Thanks Xanb

I hope you all realise thigs used to be like this, until.......  money was invented! 

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Re: What if......?
bwk wrote:

I don't think it would work *here* in the "1st" world.

With all due respect, I don't think you have any idea how much your world (of whatever ranking!) is about to change...

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Re: What if......?

Ah Switters, I wish I'd written this myself.....  Thank you.

Those posters who keep finding reasons why this would not work are in my opinion showing the typical  response to change: Nuh, don't want it!  Why do people hate change, even if it later proves for the better?  Do any of you realise how much your world is about to change?

The argument re garbage earlier in this post is pretty typical [NOTE: I am not having a go at anyone here].  WHY do we have garbage?  Question EVERYTHING is my motto..  Garbage is a product of the Matrix, you consume, you make garbage.  It can only happen with cheap and abundant oil anyways...

The Matrix is now so insidious that it is impossible to abandon it, no matter how you might try to be self sufficient.  We still need money for taxes, and this internet connection.  And if my wife suddenly decided she'd had enough with work, sold the car, and stayed home with me to live more sustainably (she only works two or three days a week)  the government would likely not give us any unemployment benefits (our SS system is quite different from yours, let's not go there), we would not be able to pay the taxes, and I guess the local Council would eventually bankrupt us and sell our house from under us to collect...  EVEN THOUGH we might not use one single service they offer!  There is NO CHOICE.....

With the Matrix collapsing as I write, this may well change.  Already Councils in my state are investigating contingency plans as their revenue base looks like diminishing rather severely over the next few years.

We live in interesting times alright.... 

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Re: What if......?
Matrix wrote:

you consume, you make garbage

And (to be coarse in order to make a point) if you eat you sh#t.  The point I was trying to make was that there are a lot of crappy jobs essential to the smooth functioning of our 'artificial' environments and I was expressing my skepticism regarding an expectation that people would voluntarily 'continue' to engage in those jobs if money evaporated and everything people wanted they could have for the taking.  

I liked krogoths suggestion (a rotational 'duty' assignment to which everyone is obligated to participate in the dirty jobs) but now we are deviating from the original vision (i.e. voluntary contributions to the social good) and introduced 'obligation'.   Once 'obligtion' is a factor in ensuring that essential works are performed we, again, have an opportunity for a form of 'crime' to occur - that being the failure to participate in the socially obligatory tasks.  In the past, isolated communities would resort to 'shunning' members of the group who failed to meet standard social expectations (shunning being the denial of access to community resources and could be a death sentence in some circumstances).   Another essential attribute for any community which relies on 'obligation' to work is that everyone in the community know everyone else - that is it must be relatively small, probably no more than 2500 people.   Migration between communities could only occur if the previous community provided a 'Letter of Introduction' that assured the new community that said traveler was an upstanding citizen (i.e. would pull their weight), in the absence of such a letter any traveler/stranger would be viewed with suspicion. 

Money has its problems, but it enables larger and more complicated social structures by breaking the dependance upon personal connections and the reliance upon social obligations. Is that good? Is it Bad? Yes and No to both I think.  But on the whole, history would seem to show that people tend to want the greater options afforded by having more people within the community (even if it is only for a larger selection of potential 'mates')

Bottom line, I think all this is nice for thinking about, but in practice it will require a substantial upheaval in the current world. Cities will need to be depopulated and there will need to be far fewer people on this planet.   I don't know about you - but I would prefer a far less drastic change (not that what I want '..amounts to a hill of beans in this crazy world')

krogoth's picture
krogoth
Status: Platinum Member (Offline)
Joined: Aug 18 2008
Posts: 576
Re: What if......?

Yes drbarbour,  you are right in introducing crime to this picture. What is the punishment? You don't eat for a couple of days? What about other crimes? How would they be punished? You would still have mental illness, serial killers, rapists, murder etc. So how would you deal with these situations? Its a great idea, Matrix, but I think we would need to think long and hard to make something like this possible, and hopefully it will not take a meltdown to force us into some retardation of this idea.

One of the things that goes on in Taiwan is compulsory service, usually 1 year, in the Army. I was talking with my wife the other day about how stupid this is. Basically you wear cammos and sit on a base, occasionally doing some stupid military exercise. It's not like the American service at all, where you actually might learn a skill. The Taiwanese men in general learn nothing from this experience, and usually go back home and return to a completely spoiled existence (being boys are favored over girls here) not learning anything about a hard days work.

So I came up with an idea that instead of the Army (a useless tool against the Chinese army) they should do construction, road building, or typically harder labor for a year to learn what hard work is. It would motivate them to do better in school and in life once they get a taste of hard work and some calluses. You feed them well, and they improve the country in the process. If your going to have compulsory service, do something good with it, not waste money on something that is useless, and the Taiwanese Army is pretty useless.

 

And don't compare this to Obama's plan, it's a different republic here.

caroline_culbert's picture
caroline_culbert
Status: Platinum Member (Offline)
Joined: Oct 2 2008
Posts: 624
Re: What if......?
joe2baba wrote:

if money is a store of value and a medium of exchange then i assume those lovely solar panels i will need on my house will be donated by you.while i donate what?

you can donate your time to grow food or help build his house...

joe2baba wrote:

the transition to the utopia you envision is impossible. as the amounts owed by different people vary and if i need that $20  k right now to get my place solarized will not be available.

I doubt anyone here would want to live in Utopia even if we got there.  If you've read the book, the fictitious settlement is almost perfect in every way but one; there lacks the sense of "feelings" such as accomplishment because everyone does exactly the same thing, wears the same thing, works the same hours, plays the same music, dances to the same songs, and etc.  Utopia, even if perfect, is rather boring.  I, myself would find it boring, but I also think that striving towards that idea, while that may seem to contradict my stance, is what makes life...life.  It's the journey not the destination (from that famous quote).

joe2baba wrote:

it is a nice dream matrix but it will not materialize in  my lifetime. i have lived on communes and it just does not work.

No one said cooperation was easy... at least I don't think so.  I have my sister, her fiance, and her son living with my family of three.  It is very difficult for us as far as cooperation goes.  Now consider a whole commune or village... Easy?--No.  Maybe it will take some time.

joe2baba wrote:

there are too many people who will not pull their weight it is just human nature .

Yeah but that is where "human nature" comes in.  The workers will foster a sense of animosity, regardless of how small, to show their disapproval.  If that doesn't work then communication (I advocate firm, but friendly) should help.  And communication also takes a long time to work  sometimes.  Take a look at marriages...  Some marriages take more effort than others.  Many believe communication is the gap in understand and cooperation.

joe2baba wrote:

i believe you are projecting your values (which i agree with) on a world which functions in a vastly different way.

Of course... that's the point.

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