THREE SMART PRESIDENTS

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jneo's picture
jneo
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THREE SMART PRESIDENTS

 

Three Smart Presidents

 The people that are in Congress in Washington,
tell us they can not deport 12 million illegal's?
We probably need to vote all of them out of office
and send them back to school to learn history!
We pay more to illegal's in welfare than it would cost to deport them!
Our career politicians need to work for the voters
and the good of the United States of America, not the lobbyist of " big business" who give them extra spending money.

The three Presidents were....
HOOVER , TRUMAN AND EISENHOWER

Here is something that should be of great interest
for you to pass around.
I didn't know of this until it was pointed out to me.

Back during The Great Depression, President Herbert Hoover
ordered the deportation of 
ALL illegal aliens
in order to make jobs available to American citizens
that desperately needed work.

Harry Truman deported over two million Illegal's after WWII
to create jobs for returning veterans.

And then again in 1954, President Dwight Eisenhower
deported 13 million Mexican nationals!
The program was called 'Operation Wetback'
so that American WWII and Korean veterans
had a better chance at jobs.
It took 2 Years, but they deported them!

Now, if they could deport the illegal's back then,
they can sure do it today!!
lf you have doubts about the veracity of this information,
enter Operation Wetback into your favorite search engine
and confirm it for yourself.

Reminder: Don't forget to pay your taxes...
12 million Illegal Aliens are depending on you... 
 and write your congressman about this! 
See if he/she cares...or not.


 Think I will fax this to NANCY PELOSi 

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Re: THREE SMART PRESIDENTS

For reference, Eisenhower also attacked and killed American Veterans pleading with the Government for their promised compensatory money, during the "Bonus Army" conflict that history seems to conveniently forget.

In 1932, three of our "American Hero's" attacked, maimed and killed American vets, under command of Douglas MacAruthur.

Major Dwight D. Eisenhower, and Major George Patton (who led a cavalry charge) were present, and aided in the violence.

http://www.eyewitnesstohistory.com/snprelief4.htm

So much for honor, duty and loyalty, eh?

Aaron

 

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Re: THREE SMART PRESIDENTS
 
Does not surprise me, thanks for that information Aaron, I will read the article.  I agree so much for honor duty and loyalty.   
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Re: THREE SMART PRESIDENTS

JK121,

No worries.

When I heard this story, I was deeply saddened. Like many other servicemen, I was led to believe that those men were courageous heros of our nation; defenders of liberty, and vengence upon the Axis, ad nauseum.

It's too bad we don't have more Thomas Jeffersons, even though, I'm sure everyone who's led a life has some skeletons in their closet.

Cheers!

Aaron

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Re: THREE SMART PRESIDENTS

Aaron: I like Andy Jackson's courageous fight against the Central Bank of his day. You got any dirt on him that I should be aware of?

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Re: THREE SMART PRESIDENTS

Hey Mike,

No siree, I'm not even familiar with him. Tell more?

Cheers!

Aaron

PS - this may inadvertantly become the "dirt on famous figures" thread ;)

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Re: THREE SMART PRESIDENTS

I'm an Australian and we have a recent brutal history of ignoring sinking vessels of illegal immigrants and also severe incarceration of on non wealthy immigrants in detention centres which cause untold mental health issues - children as well I might add.

I am deeply ashamed of this, as Australia is very multicultural due to a less stringent immigration policy in years gone by and our immigrants are usually very hard workers.  They have had a shocking life in their own countries and are willing to work very hard to make a better future for themselves.

I think in these times of serious upheaval we need to open our hearts to our neighbours, immediate and distant;  it is time for all of us to work together - our survival depends on it.  We live on a very small planet the only aliens in this day and age are those from other planets and maybe someday if we encounter them, we may do well to be kind to them as well. 

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Re: THREE SMART PRESIDENTS
Aaron Moyer wrote:

For reference, Eisenhower also attacked and killed American Veterans pleading with the Government for their promised compensatory money, during the "Bonus Army" conflict that history seems to conveniently forget.

In 1932, three of our "American Hero's" attacked, maimed and killed American vets, under command of Douglas MacAruthur.

Major Dwight D. Eisenhower, and Major George Patton (who led a cavalry charge) were present, and aided in the violence.

http://www.eyewitnesstohistory.com/snprelief4.htm

So much for honor, duty and loyalty, eh?

Aaron

 

Are you presenting this event accurately and objectively?   I don't, convince me otherwise?

 

Nichoman

(Retired Military) 

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Re: THREE SMART PRESIDENTS

Nicholman,

Yes. There is really no other way to paint it, when you look at the historical event.

You can take my word for it, or research it for yourself, but in a nutshell:
1. Legions of Veterans who were promised compensatory pay rallied at and around DC; they were told to get lost, and that their pay was not available.

2. The "Bonus Army" marchers did not leave, and set up a camp.

3. Troops were position to "block" the Bonus Army from being obtrusive to the capital, and tensions ran high.
Eventually, it was decided that they should be removed by force, and to scatter the veterans, MacArthur ordered Eisenhower, Patton and others to charge, threw smoke bombs (which inadvertantly acted as incindiary devices; similar to Waco) and injured and killed several of the vets who were unable to get away from the commotion - mostly those with already serious injuries.

This was the "first" real transgression of trust between the military and the citizenry, and the beginning of a precendent that re-appeared at Kent State, Waco, Ruby Ridge and in various other smaller skirmishes over the last 20 years.

No matter how you look at it - both sides were probably at fault, but the underlaying belief in my mind is that the government has no business interefering with the citzenry during peaceful protests, on their private property or in ways that cause excess damage or death.

In this, and many other examples, people like Lon Horiuchi acted absolutely outside the scope of their mission, and were rewarded with citations and honor because of it.

As a serviceman myself, I'm appalled at events like these. They give a bad name to the hundreds of thousands of Military and First Responders who are forced into tough, rapidly evolving situations under threat of death or injury.

Shooting women holding babies is beyond criminal - and far outside the scope of his mission; which was the reason cited by the circuit court when they said he was protected by the Supremacy Clause.

Look into the Bonus Army further, It's lousy, I know. But it's best we learn from mistakes, and make those who make them wear the mantle of shame - not honor.

Cheers!

Aaron

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Re: THREE SMART PRESIDENTS

he evicted the cherokee from north carolina in an episode known as the trail of tears

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Re: THREE SMART PRESIDENTS
Aaron Moyer wrote:

Nicholman,

Yes. There is really no other way to paint it, when you look at the historical event.

<snip>

No matter how you look at it - both sides were probably at fault, but the underlaying belief in my mind is that the government has no business interefering with the citzenry during peaceful protests, on their private property or in ways that cause excess damage or death.

In this, and many other examples, people like Lon Horiuchi acted absolutely outside the scope of their mission, and were rewarded with citations and honor because of it.

As a serviceman myself, I'm appalled at events like these. They give a bad name to the hundreds of thousands of Military and First Responders who are forced into tough, rapidly evolving situations under threat of death or injury.

Shooting women holding babies is beyond criminal - and far outside the scope of his mission; which was the reason cited by the circuit court when they said he was protected by the Supremacy Clause.

Look into the Bonus Army further, It's lousy, I know. But it's best we learn from mistakes, and make those who make them wear the mantle of shame - not honor.

Cheers!

Aaron

Aaron,

I just learned something today that I didn't know until you provided the link above:

After his first shot hit and wounded Randy Weaver, Horiuchi fired a
second shot at Kevin Harris, who was armed, some 20 seconds later as
Harris was running into the Weaver home. The bullet struck and killed
Vicki Weaver, who was standing behind the door through which Harris was
entering the home
;[1][2] the round also struck and wounded Harris.[3]  (added emphasis mine)

I always thought that he shot Vicki Weaver while she was standing in plain sight outside the front door. This indicates otherwise. Are you saying he never should have fired because he didn't know where his shot would wind up?

 

As regards the Bonus Army debacle - I think it serves as a prime example that the US military cannot be trusted to not fire on US citizens if so ordered. Sad & shameful - but probably true. I would expect some of the more intelligent soldiers to avoid doing so, but there are too many who would go along with any order they are given without thought to the consequences. Keep in mind that I say this as a proud veteran who, nevertheless, is a realist. Frown

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Re: THREE SMART PRESIDENTS
Aaron Moyer wrote:

Hey Mike,

No siree, I'm not even familiar with him. Tell more?

Cheers!

Aaron

PS - this may inadvertantly become the &quot;dirt on famous figures&quot; thread ;)

 

Aaron,

Here are the results of a Google search. There are untold links to the story of President Jackson's fight with the Central Bank. Pick your poison!  Wink

http://www.google.com/search?q=Andrew+Jackson+and+the+Central+Bank&ie=ut...

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Re: THREE SMART PRESIDENTS
SamLinder wrote:
Aaron Moyer wrote:

Nicholman,

Yes. There is really no other way to paint it, when you look at the historical event.

<snip>

No matter how you look at it - both sides were probably at fault, but the underlaying belief in my mind is that the government has no business interefering with the citzenry during peaceful protests, on their private property or in ways that cause excess damage or death.

In this, and many other examples, people like Lon Horiuchi acted absolutely outside the scope of their mission, and were rewarded with citations and honor because of it.

As a serviceman myself, I'm appalled at events like these. They give a bad name to the hundreds of thousands of Military and First Responders who are forced into tough, rapidly evolving situations under threat of death or injury.

Shooting women holding babies is beyond criminal - and far outside the scope of his mission; which was the reason cited by the circuit court when they said he was protected by the Supremacy Clause.

Look into the Bonus Army further, It's lousy, I know. But it's best we learn from mistakes, and make those who make them wear the mantle of shame - not honor.

Cheers!

Aaron

Aaron,

I just learned something today that I didn't know until you provided the link above:

 

After his first shot hit and wounded Randy Weaver, Horiuchi fired a
second shot at Kevin Harris, who was armed, some 20 seconds later as
Harris was running into the Weaver home. The bullet struck and killed
Vicki Weaver, who was standing behind the door through which Harris was
entering the home
;[1][2] the round also struck and wounded Harris.[3]  (added emphasis mine)

I always thought that he shot Vicki Weaver while she was standing in plain sight outside the front door. This indicates otherwise. Are you saying he never should have fired because he didn't know where his shot would wind up?

 

As regards the Bonus Army debacle - I think it serves as a prime example that the US military cannot be trusted to not fire on US citizens if so ordered. Sad & shameful - but probably true. I would expect some of the more intelligent soldiers to avoid doing so, but there are too many who would go along with any order they are given without thought to the consequences. Keep in mind that I say this as a proud veteran who, nevertheless, is a realist. Frown

 

Sam,

The whole story at Ruby Ridge was a travesty that was
started by the Government. Horiuchi should not have been shooting at
the boy  in the first place. The boy was carrying a rifle because he had
been out hunting. The "orders" were to shoot any armed male.

A pretty sad tale when the FBI is told to shoot citizens regardless of any provocation.

The government created the whole mess and then made it worse by the seige.

 

Ken

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Re: THREE SMART PRESIDENTS

Aaron:

Thanks for your response.

When I was attending Air Command and Staff College (ACSC) about 20 years ago, I recall a presentation involving this incident.   Some items presented.

  • MacArthur disobeyed Hoover's orders.
  • Hoover should have fired and/or court martialed MacArthur
  • This incident helped seal Roosevelt's election
  • Eisenhower and Patton were following orders.   There was (still is) a strict military code of chain of command and code of conduct.
  • This event was referenced in part of the My Lai Massacre post event studies in policy that helped improve military leadership responsibilities within the chain of command.

We all are human.   I didn't know Eisenhower, but knew key USAF leadership who did.   They were people of high moral character.   I vaguely recall in discussions talk of their approval of Eisenhower's character.   Have heard comments Eisenhower was reticent to talk about this...but their impressions were he didn't do anything improper within the constraints of his responsibilities and his view of professionalism and leadership that limited his options before changes stemming from the My Lai Massacre.   

I've never found in my experiences, as a group, our top military leadership who weren't of the most superior morals and professionalism.

My experiences of over 50 of the senior military generals are their highest commitment to the people of the US.   With power comes great responsibility...oaths are taken seriously.

The reason our military is the best is because of the checks and balances (including a culture of transparency and accountability) in place which we need more of in our 3 branches of government with the citizens of this nation.

The story of MacArthur disobedience of Hoover orders I've heard also from historians (and is also mentioned in link below).

If you can find otherwise where Eisenhower (and even Patton) was a willing accomplice, please provide this.  My understanding is they were following orders. 

There are other experiences involving MacArthur's leadership actions in his career I found quite disturbing.   His actions and behavior do provide ample examples of both good and poor/bad leadership in military leadership training.    

We all can find anything on the internet...but it doesn't indicate its accurate (incomplete) or even true.

I have difficulty from multiple experiences and sources that doesn't indicate Eisenhower was a person overall of integrity who tried to do always the right thing.   Not perfect, but definitely not a malicious person.

The closest source that replicates my memories of this event is...

http://www.historynet.com/the-bonus-army-war-in-washington.htm

Finally, the military is far from perfect (you want to hear bitching...believe me...it's there...the leadership just does it between themselves within military protocol).  We need to learn from our mistakes and ensure it can never happen again.  That's was strongest take home message I was taught from this.  

We need to do the same for our broken government, I have a proposal that returns the full power and accountability to the people consistent with all the principles and values of our Constitution.  If interested in hearing more, tell me.  

The key again, is to learn. 

If your disagree with any of this, please let me know. 

 

Nichoman

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Re: THREE SMART PRESIDENTS

Hey Sam,

This passage:

Quote:

...he shot Vicki Weaver while she was standing in plain sight outside the front door. 

Is in my opinion, is the truth, no matter what the story says.
She was outside the doorway, she was shot while holding a baby. 
We "know" these things.

From the accounts, Harris had already been wounded, and was basically being drug to the porch after placing Weaver's boy in the shed.
Why take that second shot?
Because a man with a gun was limping his way towards a house?
How was shooting a fleeing man within the "scope of the mission"?

Agent Horiuchi was criminally neglegent at absolute best, and a cold blooded murderer at worst. War criminals can't use the excuse that they were "just following orders", so why should it apply to a precision marksman in an elite unit of an elite organization?

Shooting the dog, and the boy was provocation. Murdering Vicki or even taking a shot at Harris was irresponsible, and whoever had tactical command of that debacle should be rotting in jail. 

If any one of us planned orchestrated and persecuted the execution of a woman, two children, and injury of a man over an offer to shorten a shotgun (perhaps to an illegal length, perhaps not) we'd be room temperature, and for good reason.

The standards should be uniform, and it's my opinion that Lon Horiuchi should be tucked away serving several life sentances consecutive - there is no reason for a professional should take shots like that.

Aaron

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Re: THREE SMART PRESIDENTS

Nichoman,

Thanks for the response - I wish I'd waited to post my previous one...

You said:

Quote:

If you can find otherwise where Eisenhower (and even Patton) was a willing accomplice, please provide this.  My understanding is they were following orders. 

There are other experiences involving MacArthur's leadership actions in his career I found quite disturbing.   His actions and behavior do provide ample examples of both good and poor/bad leadership in military leadership training.  

I do agree with your general point above - and I do agree that by in large, the military is both professional and of upstanding moral character.

That said, I think the situation was a malaligned attempt to resolve a situation that could be absolved by fulfilling an obligation. I can understand how a couple young Majors could execute orders without worrying too much about the civil aspects, and I suppose that our ultimate points are the same: experiences should be learned from.

Cheers, and thank you again for the excellent reply.

Aaron

PS - I'm very interested in hearing your proposal about returning power coincident with the constitution to the people. Do tell!

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Re: THREE SMART PRESIDENTS

Smart President is an oxymoron.

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Re: THREE SMART PRESIDENTS
Aaron Moyer wrote:

PS - I'm very interested in hearing your proposal about returning power coincident with the constitution to the people. Do tell!

I have a "white paper" (or overview) I'll post tomorrow.   If you and others find interesting, can provide more specifics how could work to address any issue.   Gotta leave now for rest of today.

Nichoman  

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Re: THREE SMART PRESIDENTS
Nichoman wrote:

The key again, is to learn.
If your disagree with any of this, please let me know.

Nichoman,

With all due respect to your service to our country, I must speak to your comments.

Nichoman wrote:

Eisenhower and Patton were following orders. There was (still is) a strict military code of chain of command and code of conduct.

This kind of thinking scares me. We held war crimes trials for the Nazi's for "following orders". Your remark seems to indicate that this attitude of "just following orders" is still prevalent in our military. No wonder people are afraid of our military turning against the civilian population.

Nichoman wrote:

I've never found in my experiences, as a group, our top military leadership who weren't of the most superior morals and professionalism.

My experiences of over 50 of the senior military generals are their highest commitment to the people of the US.   With power comes great responsibility...oaths are taken seriously.

The reason our military is the best is because of the checks and balances (including a culture of transparency and accountability) in place which we need more of in our 3 branches of government with the citizens of this nation.

Apparently your confidence in the high standards of our military hasn't permeated throughout the ranks. The lying and deceit around the death of Pat Tillman in Afghanistan is a prime example of that. See all these google links that speak to that deception.  http://www.google.com/search?q=pat+tillman+death&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&...

As ex-USAF (1962 - 1966), it grieves me to have to point out this reality. However, in the interests of truth, it is important for everyone to know. The environment we currently find ourselves in gives one significant pause when they see reports that segments of our military are being trained to deal with civil unrest in our country.

Kent State (http://www.google.com/search?q=kent+state+massacre&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=...) immediately comes to mind as does My Lai (http://www.google.com/search?q=my+lai+massacre&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rl...) and recent incidents in both Iraq (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2006/may/27/iraq.topstories3) and Afghanistan (http://www.greenleft.org.au/2007/707/36699 and http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2002/sep/14/afghanistan.lukeharding).

How will our troops react if they are faced with a hostile population in this country? Doesn't it give you pause ............?

Nichoman wrote:

...I have a proposal that returns the full power and accountability to the people consistent with all the principles and values of our Constitution.  If interested in hearing more, tell me.

Nichoman

I would be very much interested in hearing more. Please post here or send me an email.

Thanks,

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Re: THREE SMART PRESIDENTS
SamLinder wrote:
Nichoman wrote:

Eisenhower and Patton were following orders. There was (still is) a strict military code of chain of command and code of conduct.

This kind of thinking scares me. We held war crimes trials for the Nazi's for "following orders". Your remark seems to indicate that this attitude of "just following orders" is still prevalent in our military. No wonder people are afraid of our military turning against the civilian population.

Sam, Eisenhower did disagree and protest.  The My Lai Massacre changed policy that it's not OK to just follow orders when you know their wrong. This was strongly taught and in leadership schools I attended.  I completely agree about just "following orders"! 

SamLinder wrote:
Nichoman wrote:

I've never found in my experiences, as a group, our top military leadership who weren't of the most superior morals and professionalism.

My experiences of over 50 of the senior military generals are their highest commitment to the people of the US.   With power comes great responsibility...oaths are taken seriously.

The reason our military is the best is because of the checks and balances (including a culture of transparency and accountability) in place which we need more of in our 3 branches of government with the citizens of this nation.

Apparently your confidence in the high standards of our military hasn't permeated throughout the ranks. The lying and deceit around the death of Pat Tillman in Afghanistan is a prime example of that. See all these google links that speak to that deception.  http://www.google.com/search?q=pat+tillman+death&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&...

As ex-USAF (1962 - 1966), it grieves me to have to point out this reality. However, in the interests of truth, it is important for everyone to know. The environment we currently find ourselves in gives one significant pause when they see reports that segments of our military are being trained to deal with civil unrest in our country.

Kent State (http://www.google.com/search?q=kent+state+massacre&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=...) immediately comes to mind as does My Lai (http://www.google.com/search?q=my+lai+massacre&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rl...) and recent incidents in both Iraq (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2006/may/27/iraq.topstories3) and Afghanistan (http://www.greenleft.org.au/2007/707/36699 and http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2002/sep/14/afghanistan.lukeharding).

How will our troops react if they are faced with a hostile population in this country? Doesn't it give you pause ............?

Agree with all your comments, leadership must be vigorous and continually exercised or will die.  Effective leadership requires dynamic relations with all in your organization.  Tenets...setting the example; approachability; making everyone around you better; earning their trust and respect by how you handle challanges; balance of challenging while inspiring all in your organization.

Sam...Thank You for your service.  Please realize I have similar thoughts when these occur.  Humans are never perfect, which is why real leadership is always a too scarce commodity.

Nichoman wrote:

...I have a proposal that returns the full power and accountability to the people consistent with all the principles and values of our Constitution.  If interested in hearing more, tell me.

Nichoman

SamLinder wrote:

I would be very much interested in hearing more. Please post here or send me an email.

Thanks,

Please read my topic post today "Overview: Voters Empowerment for Government Accountability". 

Would appreciate your thoughts and suggestions toward improvement...if part or all of VEGA concept has merit.  I tell my 5 children, "don't complain, do something about it".   Trying walk the talk so to speak.

Thanks for all your comments above.

Nichoman 

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