Is there time to pay off debt, and if not, then what?

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Swampmama3's picture
Swampmama3
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Is there time to pay off debt, and if not, then what?

Hello again, everybody.  I've been off traipsing through other forums and life in general.  Nice to come back to the comparatively welcoming, rational tone here.

I was thinking there may not be enough time to finish paying off my mortgage before this all goes kablooey-shaped.  Assuming the economy and life as we know it comes to a grinding slowdown in fairly short order, like less than a year, we all lose our jobs and have no means of paying anyway because no currency is accepted, what are the chances of someone coming to boot us off our land?  If fuel is so expensive nobody can drive and markets are down and law enforcement isn't getting paid, at what point are "they" going to stop foreclosing on people's homes?

Currently, my husband has a good job, and our debt load is low, all of in on real estate, none of which we are upside down on.  We are making good strides on paying off things, but it will still take a few years to be debt-free.

Assuming a crash and chaos situation, do you people who are in the know about such things think they'll bother to come take either a low-end suburban home or raw rural land?  Or will they (mortgage banks) be too busy with bigger fish?

All this is based on a worry of mine that there is not enough time, and me hoping I'm too small for them to bother with if everything else is going apeshit.

If there are other threads about this, please direct me to them.  Thanks!

Amanda V's picture
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Re: Is there time to pay off debt, and if not, then what?

Fantastic questions.  Thanks for starting this thread.  I have similar questions as we are in a similar situation - although probably more debt than you.

I think that it very much depends on the speed of the crash.

Secondly though, I am concerned that the banks will take those with very high equity first (people like you) as it will be much easier to get their money than people with low equity (as they are less likely to get what you owe them).

I am putting my money in to preparation rather than paying off the mortgage madly.  Paying the mortgage would take us longer than the time in which I believe the crash will come.  If you can pay yours in a couple of years though, I would say go for it.  If you have flexible home mortgages in US then do that so you could draw down the money again should you need it.  That is, if your income gets cut off you can at least pay your mortgage by "drawing" on these funds. 

Hope this is some food for thought.

Amanda

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Re: Is there time to pay off debt, and if not, then what?

Hey Swampmama and Amanda-

   I have had the same concern.  I can probably get clear of debt in 4 or 5 years.  But it sure isn't feeling like we're going to have that much time right now; it feels like the old infrastructure is crumbling around us.  I know timing is hard to guess, and maybe I'll have enough time.  But it is the uncertainty that has me worried.  As Swampmama asks, what happens if we don't have that kind of time? 

   I had thought about trying to accelerate payment of my debt.  But the amount of discretionary cash I have just wouldn't make that big a difference given the size of my payments.  And as I thought about it, it seemed to make more sense to save that small amount of discretionary $ as an emergency fund, and maintain flexibility in how to spend it.  That way I could spend it on  paying off debt (to the extent it could) if I wanted/needed to.  But I would also have it in liquid form in case I found that some other need for cash became more important. E.g., if "bugging out" for whatever reason becomes imperative, I'd rather have cash available to help me do that, then have spent that cash paying down (then) meaningless debt.

   And even that "extra emergency fund" savings is turning out to be a pipe dream.  I find myself spending whatever discretionary funds I do have on emergency preps for a more sustainable situation if/when the infrastructure does crumble, while I still can.  I.e., while USD $ are still worth something, before prices go up a lot more, before everyone awakens and things become scarce.  So instead of building up my emergency fund, I'm buying  fruit trees, seeds, soil amendments, basic tools and clothing, etc.

   And so that all brings me back to square one, which is that I have the same question and concern as Swampmama: what happens if we can't pay off our debt in time, before our current economic infrastructure really starts to crumble around us?  Do folks perceive that as a situation to be avoided at all costs?  E.g., would you sell off whatever PMs you had now to do it? Or do folks think it may become meaningless, given so many others will be in the same situation, and collecting on debt may not be the biggest concern at that point?

   Sage speculation and advice is welcomed!:)

deggleton's picture
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Re: Is there time to pay off debt, and if not, then what?

Eliminate debt the best you can; prep more by increasing and strengthening your connections with people around you.  I cannot imagine that creditors will be lax, in any scenario.  Holding others to obligations (getting something for nothing) is always in season.  Remember the sheriff of Nottingham.

If collectors can't make as many calls in a day because owning/operating motorized vehicles is too precious, more will be hired to work smaller territories, probably for reduced rewards that will be attractive under the circumstances.

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Re: Is there time to pay off debt, and if not, then what?

Divert all extra cash into prepping.  The savings of being prepared will more than pay for the mortgage.

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Re: Is there time to pay off debt, and if not, then what?
docmims wrote:

Divert all extra cash into prepping.  The savings of being prepared will more than pay for the mortgage.

Key word: extra

Please elaborate on the second sentence.  You must have thought more than you shared in that nugget.

Thanks,

David

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Swampmama3
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Re: Is there time to pay off debt, and if not, then what?

Pinecarr, you really clarified my thought process for me, with the way you worded your post.  Thanks a bunch.  When I make my nice, neat monthly budget, there's always a pretty chunk of dollars I can throw at paying down prinicple on mortgages.  But, then reality comes along and there's a solar oven to build or a grain mill to buy, and I'm left with only half that chunk to throw at the mortgage debt.  I'm still paying way over minimum, but a lot of it gets diverted to preps because of this sense of urgency I have. 

My concern comes because I have a second mortgage on my primary residence.  For the first mortgage, they'd just take the house, which is fine with me, but because of the structure of things, I understand the 2nd mortgage holder often gets left out on payback in a foreclosure situation, so they are more often likely to go after your secondary assets to get paid.  Our only secondary asset is 19 acres of raw land out in the boonies.  That is what I REALLY want to not loose.  They can come take the house.  I won't be in it.  But if they show up at my BOL and try to take it, there will be flying lead.

I am not trying to shirk my debt.  I want to pay what I owe because I want to own it free and clear in good conscience.  But if time is not on my side despite my best efforts, what is there to be done?  Surely they must realize a human must be allowed to live somewhere?  I'm kinda hoping they don't want marginal unfarmable bottomland infested with snakes and other crawly critters.  (Which also happens to be abundant with firewood, water, and wild edibles for me)

I suppose I"m of the attitude they can take the house.  I just want to be left alone out at my BOL.  I was hoping that would be possible if there's not enough time.  I'm hoping there's not enough infrastructure left for them to profit from taking it from me, so it wouldn't be worth their effort.  If not, there are a lot of redneck hunter sorts who I know will be standing with us if anybody comes to take our places, so they better bring an army.  If suits try to take a person's only means of survival, it could get ugly.  Hoping and praying to avoid conflict and live in peace.

Your thoughts are enlightening, all of you.  It seems none of us know so far what is likely to happen in such a situation.  Is there anyone on the board here who works in collections or for a mortgage firm, and has a clue?  Assuming, of course, there is no market to sell a foreclosed property, would they even bother?

 

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Re: Is there time to pay off debt, and if not, then what?

David: on my second line.  Currency devaluation is a boon for debtors and a disaster for savers. If SM has income that rises with inflation she will be able to meet her mortgage obligations more easily.  If she has food prepped she will feed her family cost effectively during rip roaring inflation.

Swamp Mama:  I assume you have not pledged the remote acreage as collateral.  If you quit paying the second mortgage I don't think they can force sale of your residence in most states like the primary mortgage holder could.  They could sue you(which i doubt) and get a judgement with which they could place a lein on the acreage, but here they could not force a sale either.  They would just be first in line for proceeds if you ever sold the property.

Hopefully your first mortgage is with a bank.  I know of 2 people, an employee and my next door neighbor who have not paid their bank mortgage in 6 months and have not had forclosure proceedings started against them.  The banks write off a minor income loss if you miss payments, but have to write off tens to hundreds of thousands of dollars immediately when they start foreclosure.  Most banks are on such shakey ground that they cannot afford to foreclose.  There is a lot of speculation that the "bounce" in the economy is due to consumers not paying their mortgages and diverting this money into the retail economy.

Bottom line is that in most states, if you default on a mortgage they can only take the property that the loan is secured by.  They can't force sale of your new home, which i assume, would be the acreage.

If the shit really hits the fan.  Foreclosure is the least of your worries and can be halted immediately with a good rifle.

David: that last line in this post to SM was a joke and should not be taken literally.Wink

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Swampmama3
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Re: Is there time to pay off debt, and if not, then what?

LOL!  Thanks, Doc.  That is what I was hoping.  If there is currency devaluation, I'll pay off my BOL with PMs.  Got plenty food.  Just need to keep the farm.  No, the rural land is not collateral.  Thanks for the info, Doc and others.  I feel better now.  Hopefully, there will be time to pay everyone anyway.

 

Happy Mom's Day to all moms!

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Re: Is there time to pay off debt, and if not, then what?

!!! (happy wiggle)

My lovely boys brought me breakfast in bed, so I was trying to eat bacon and eggs while typing with one hand in that last post. 

If I had been thinking clearly, I would have realized on my own that the 2nd mortgage holder on my residence wouldn't be able to take the rural land.  The problem with this kind of worry I have is that I tent to dither, and not think as clearly as I should.  I'm thinking more about food, water, shelter, food, water, shelter, repeat... (hygeine, defense, education, etc...) the litany gets long.

I have not paid a penny extra on my home mortgage, other than regular payments.  I am throwing all the extra at the payments for the 19 acres.  I know the suburban home will be unlivable in a SHTF situation.  We're too close here to a large population of govt. dependant people, and the sanitation situation would be such that disease would spread after a flooding rain, which happens fairly frequently.

I've thought of selling our house so we can throw all funds at the land payoff, but then there'd be a long commute to work for the hubby with uncertain fuel prices in the future.  Also, we have no dwelling out there yet.  Of course, we could always buy a gently used RV, but yik.  I suppose I'm foolishly waiting for things to get really bad so I can say "I wish I would have."  It's hard to give up comfort and convenience for a maybe.  Darn.  I hope I don't regret it.

pinecarr's picture
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Re: Is there time to pay off debt, and if not, then what?

Happy Mothers' Day Swampmama, and other moms here too!

I also got treated to breakfast in bed; isn't it the best?  (I had to go BACK to bed to make it work!:) 

Swampmama, this is a really helpful line of discussions, thanks for starting the thread.  Thanks David and docmims for your insights.  I am hoping even more people kick in, and share their thoughts!

SM, you're not alone in having the litany of prep "to dos" run through your head! "Sustainable water?, sustainable food? shelter/security?"....(repeat with multiple variations).  It does make it hard to focus!  That's when I try to just pick one of the top priorities, and focus on that, or I make myself nuts!

signalfire's picture
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Re: Is there time to pay off debt, and if not, then what?

After paying out over 30K in just 3 years on a house and owning not one single doorknob's worth of equity and starting up a new business to replace a lost job, I gave up paying my mortgage back in November. Nothing from the banks except a few ignored phone calls and a letter stating, 'acceleration of process' or something, meaning, now they'll get around to foreclosing. That was back in February and it's May now!  It's a 500 SF cottage in a not terribly great part of town and I doubt they could sell it for much of anything. I certainly couldn't for what I paid for it. I presume they'll auction it off at some point, but meanwhile, I'm plowing that money into the new venture.  It's far more important than paying off a bunch of loan sharks who literally blew up the entire world's economy through greed and still want more (and all their ammo seems to consist of phone calls...)

Look at it this way; the more people resist paying off the loans (out of imaginary money, remember that), the faster these criminal banking entities that have taken over our government will fail.

See www.thezeitgeistmovement.com for another way of doing things.

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Re: Is there time to pay off debt, and if not, then what?

Swampmama3 - don't be too quick to reduce mortgage debt at a rate faster than your agreed duration.  I don't know your overall situation but wanted to give you some things to consider.

  • Mortgage rates are usually relatively low compared to other debt and the interest may be deducted from taxes.  Wipe out the credit card debt (if you have any) and other loans before pre-paying on a mortgage.  If you have other debt, you may be better off taking equity out of your house to eliminate all other debt (other than special loans like an automobile with 0% financing) by refinancing your home.
  • Consider the possibility that your home may not be worth near as much in the coming months and years.  In the past, many considered their home to be part of their "nest egg" for retirement.  This once seemingly good plan doesn't seem to bode well for the future.  What if you rush and pay down your mortgage only to find that your home is not worth near what you have paid for it?
  • You may be better, at this point, in buying PMs or other assets that provide you with a better chance of avoiding the continued devaluation of the dollar.  Often when we see the price of gold go up what we are really seeing is the value of the dollar going down.  Let's say for example, you had the ability to pay down $100,000 on your mortgage or to use that money to buy PMs.  If the value of your home went down 10% in the next year, your $100,000 equity would have shrunk to $90,000 IF you actually sold your home.  Take the same year and let's assume that gold went up 10% - your $100,000 would be worth $111,000 which would be 20% better than simply buying more equity in your home.
  • If you are in a position to accumulate money, you might want to hold on to it (other than paying down credit card and other expensive debt).  You may find that you will be able to buy much more home and more property a year from now
  • What if you want to move because of unforeseen circumstances (e.g. job loss, run down neighborhood, the need to be closer to relatives or maybe the need to move to greener pastures).  If you owe more than your house is worth (upside down) then you may not be able to sell.  If you owe a lot more than your house is worth, you may want to simply walk away.

Best of luck!

Larry 

Montana Native's picture
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Re: Is there time to pay off debt, and if not, then what?

SM,

Interesting post youve put up here. For me, the most important thing in trying to understand what would happen to money and foreclosures during a kablooey is what would those in power do? How many acroynym programs would be created, how many tax credits, how many bailouts? All of the programs would likely be based on an assumption, the US dollar is the world reserve currency and has value. I am pretty firmly in the inflation camp long term because I think politicians will be much too tempted to debase our currency.

With that said, I have no intention of paying all of my dollars to the banksters now. Infact my wife and I just picked up a foreclosed farmhouse on 12 acres a few days ago. We paid a paltry 5% down on the place. I could have paid 25% down easily. The funniest part was the loan specialist basically asked us with our income and low debt why we didnt have more saved in cash. I guess she had never met anyone who saved in PM's.

My plan is to make all my payments as manageable as possible while diverting excess capital into tangible goods. The last year or two it was PM's, I see this as an insurance policy on the growing likelyhood that our currency will fall precipitously in value within the next 20 years. I imagine I only have about 15% of total debt load saved in PM's, but hey what does a young couple saddled with student loan debt do?  The debt is spread out to 20-30 years (very much on purpose) and will solely be mortgage and student loan debt within a year or two.

This year I wont be paying extra on this debt, to the contrary I'll be making purchases like a hand pump for the well, a wood fired hot tub, a high efficiency wood stove to replace the polluter in the living room. Additionally I'll be buying plenty of sturdy hand tools, nails, screws, food storage, bullets, etc. etc. My wife and I both work as health care professionals and considering this seems like the next bubble  the Government wants to inflate, we intend to ride the wave as long as possible

I think if things go down hill in the states, you should be able to avoid foreclosure and money problems with good preparation and a realization that the Government will create money via programs ad infinitum. Be prepared and think "out of the box". Who knows what is really coming huh?

 

 

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Re: Is there time to pay off debt, and if not, then what?

DrK, thanks for the tips.  Maybe I wasn't clear.  I don't have any bad debt.  All I have is the real estate.  I'm not trying to get out of paying what I owe.  I just want to keep the 'stead if things go wunky through no fault of our own. 

Montana, I think you're absolutely correct that the govt will create all kinds of instruments, as they already are.  I want no part of it, cause then they own you. By the way, I love the list of your intended purchases this year.  We've yet to build a cabin out at the place, but when we do, I want an iron stove and a clawfoot tub.  Not that it has to have those specific feet, just that kind of tub cause they last forever and are classy.  The hubby loves the wood-fired bit.

Thanks, all!  I feel pretty reassured now, and I will still continue to try to pay off the land as quickly as I can, still leaving $$ for other preps and life experiences with the family.  Hey, if things go bad and it all goes down before I can payoff, maybe they'll take fresh eggs, firewood, clean water, or potatoes for payment!

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Re: Is there time to pay off debt, and if not, then what?

At every step of this unfolding havoc that pretends to be an economy those who were responsible,  those who saved money, and those who have low debt and high equity on their houses,  get punished.  The closer I am to paying off my house the MORE likely I am to be foreclosed?!  The math makes complete sense in a backwards world and I grasp the idea of why,  but it still stinks to high heaven.   We have no other debt and we still intend to pay off our mortgage,  but DH and I still debate the merits of focusing our money on savings, prepping (and for what) and paying off debt.

We focused on saving and paying off debt in expectation DH would lose his job - he did.  So up 'til now this strategy has paid off.    We both have fairly good reason to believe that barring some drastic economic foul up we will both be back to work by Sept.   Once we are not living off savings and severance,  what should our plan next be?  Unlike swampmama,  this IS our home and our BOL.  We have what we felt we needed,  land and family and community.  What to do:  prep,  pay off mortgage,  buy barter items?......

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Re: Is there time to pay off debt, and if not, then what?
land2341 wrote:

We focused on saving and paying off debt in expectation DH would lose his job - he did.  So up 'til now this strategy has paid off.    We both have fairly good reason to believe that barring some drastic economic foul up we will both be back to work by Sept.   Once we are not living off savings and severance,  what should our plan next be?  Unlike swampmama,  this IS our home and our BOL.  We have what we felt we needed,  land and family and community.  What to do:  prep,  pay off mortgage,  buy barter items?......

The thing that is so confusing to me is who would be foreclosing on us in a collapse scenario. Some of the scenarios that are brought up seem so dire that it seems unlikely there would be an office to send the payment to! 

I am with all the savers here and share your frustration. We've been hanging onto our cash hoping to buy property but prices are not dropping as quickly as they could due to the banks simply holding onto them. Business has slowed so we had to get re-approved for a loan and in that week missed out on a house with 2 acres that we have been trying to purchase for a year. Then again, living in the desert with its water problems as we do (San Diego) I'm on the fence about whether this is the best place to stay ... however it's very tough to think about *starting* to build a community elsewhere when we don't really know how much time we have. 

Sometimes I really get why people don't want to take the red pill ...

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Re: Is there time to pay off debt, and if not, then what?

The collapse scenarios DO sound dire.  And maybe I am just foolish,  but I keep thinking about other places that have suffered serious problems:  Iceland, Argentina, Germany at the end of WWII,  ENgland at the end of WWII.  In every case there were serious problems and people did suffer.  In Germany at the end of the war there was no real government,  there were no services,  the infrastructure was gone and yet it actually did not take that long for some version of governance and structure to emerge.  Kosovo during and after the war.  The only place I can think of where no governance ever re-emerged after a collapse is Somalia,  but I think the way it is must be OK for many of them or it would not have stayed that way for so long.  

People adapt,  they innovate,  they rebuild.  Could the downturn collapse be bad - of course it could and I am prepping.  But the money changers will re-emerge in some form.  They always do.  The question is how far back do we let them come?

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Re: Is there time to pay off debt, and if not, then what?
land2341 wrote:

At every step of this unfolding havoc that pretends to be an economy those who were responsible,  those who saved money, and those who have low debt and high equity on their houses,  get punished.  The closer I am to paying off my house the MORE likely I am to be foreclosed?!  The math makes complete sense in a backwards world and I grasp the idea of why,  but it still stinks to high heaven.   We have no other debt and we still intend to pay off our mortgage,  but DH and I still debate the merits of focusing our money on savings, prepping (and for what) and paying off debt.

We focused on saving and paying off debt in expectation DH would lose his job - he did.  So up 'til now this strategy has paid off.    We both have fairly good reason to believe that barring some drastic economic foul up we will both be back to work by Sept.   Once we are not living off savings and severance,  what should our plan next be?  Unlike swampmama,  this IS our home and our BOL.  We have what we felt we needed,  land and family and community.  What to do:  prep,  pay off mortgage,  buy barter items?......

Sorry to hear about the job loss.  In your specific case, if you still have good credit I would take out a home equity line to the max you can get.  It will actually shelter you from other liens being put on your property and get your equity out.  You don't want to lose your equity to the bank.  Some might say this is borderline unethical, but folks have to live.  Spend the equity to pay the mortgage and other expenses just like you would spend your emergency savings until you can get another job.

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Re: Is there time to pay off debt, and if not, then what?

I've had a series of revelations today.

In early 2007, I remembered thinking "all this liar loan stuff on huge mcmansions is unreal.  But, the people in charge must know something I don't.  Surely the greedy banksters have their own best interests at heart and wouldn't do anything that would hurt they system they feed on.  Everything will be fine, because they wouldn't do all this if it were dangerous somehow."  We know how that ended.

So, today, I was putting together a few theories about the oil spill, and using the US dollar to pay Greece's bailout and found myself falling into  "well, this doesn't make any sense.  Surely, the people in charge must know something I don't.  I'm just a housewife and I see this has to end badly... Nah!  They know what they're doing.  They won't let anything bad happen that would hurt their own wealth supply"    DOH!!

The ones who are in the know on what's really happening in the world are making huge decisions that benefit themselves in the very short-term, with no regard for the future, or the host of shlub taxpayers/consumers they feed on.  Can this all be a massive co-hinkydink, or are we foolish to not see the rats scrambling from the ship with all they can carry?  Flying away off to their Swiss chalets where the rabble won't be able to reach them.

Am I crazy, or are y'all getting creeped out too?

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Re: Is there time to pay off debt, and if not, then what?

Swampmama I don't think it is a coincidence at all.   A few months back a memo was leaked about higher ups in a certain bank being advised to purchase remote land and start making preps for "expected civil unrest".   The system does not encourage any of them individually to do anything but look out for themselves and to cash out as quickly as they can.  So they individually are doing that with no regard for how their collective behavior is killing the golden goose.

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Re: Is there time to pay off debt, and if not, then what?
land2341 wrote:

Swampmama I don't think it is a coincidence at all.   A few months back a memo was leaked about higher ups in a certain bank being advised to purchase remote land and start making preps for "expected civil unrest".   The system does not encourage any of them individually to do anything but look out for themselves and to cash out as quickly as they can.  So they individually are doing that with no regard for how their collective behavior is killing the golden goose.

YES.  But the wall streeters may get allergic smelling hay.  I certainly hope they stock up their retreats for me.

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Re: Is there time to pay off debt, and if not, then what?

What I wonder is who will they hire??  They will need protection from the rabble and will have to hire muscle.  Will they subcontract with Xe?  Will there be enough ex-military around to fill this role in ad hoc militias run by ex-wall street warlords??  Who will they hire as maids and cooks?  If you go to work for them does your family get to be inside the compound??  Are you willing to give your life to protect theirs or their hoard, if your family is hungry??

Not looking for a job,  just pondering.

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Re: Is there time to pay off debt, and if not, then what?

What interesting to me is thinking about who will ultimately be left behind....

Investment bankers who stocked up on land/goods but have no skills. But maybe good wine to trade.

Militia people who have no social skills but lots of jerky, ammo and razor wire.

Progressive enviromentalists who will ride bikes carrying their perma-culture veggies to transistion town meetings.

Conservative christians who can't help but believe that Jesus coming back has something do with all this mess.

Who else?

We will all have to learn to live with each other!  What a conundrum...so many different kinds of people who will have to come together to survive.  I only hope I have enough preps to stay in the game and see how it all plays out.  I believe Gods timing is perfect.

I look forward to what is coming, whether I'm here to see it or not.

 

redpill's picture
redpill
Status: Member (Offline)
Joined: May 6 2010
Posts: 23
Re: Is there time to pay off debt, and if not, then what?

All those people will be fine.  The people you need to worry about are the people who have no useful skills, nothing to trade, and nothing to lose.  They won't go away, and they'll come up with reasons why what you have should belong to them.

Romans12.2's picture
Romans12.2
Status: Silver Member (Offline)
Joined: Jul 14 2009
Posts: 227
Re: Is there time to pay off debt, and if not, then what?

Redpill - Im not worried about looters.  Im married to the Militia type.

SM - We are paying basic mortgage payments....split the rest between cash savings and prep supplies/gold.  I want to stay in our suburban home with four acres, 6 chickens,barn and decent size garden.  But our GOOD plan is a 40acre farm that we paid cash for in a rural spot.  We also have an rv and and a 18ft enclosed trailer to load up what we can and leave.  If rioting starts in Detroit, we will load up.

I believe it's more important to have supplies and pms right now than pay down your mortgage.  You can't eat your house.  And it's true that there will always be money collectors, but maybe post crash you can negotiate what your property is really worth.

Swampmama3's picture
Swampmama3
Status: Bronze Member (Offline)
Joined: Oct 28 2009
Posts: 72
Re: Is there time to pay off debt, and if not, then what?

Thank you all.  Sorry, I kind of got off my own topic.  It just startled me when I realized how advanced the situation has already become.  I wonder how long TPTB will be able to promote a sense of normalcy in the media.  Yes, it will be an interesting ride.   I feel like I am at the top of a roller coaster, fixing to go down and thinking "Why did I get on this ride?  I want off!  Aaaahhh!" and then the queasy feeling in the belly as the bottom comes up to meet me. 

I think maybe the end of 'normal' won't be when something strategic happens in a market or a war or a natural disaster.  Maybe it will be when the other 95%, the masses, wake up and see what's going on and start scrambling for resources, too. 

pinecarr's picture
pinecarr
Status: Diamond Member (Offline)
Joined: Apr 13 2008
Posts: 2247
Re: Is there time to pay off debt, and if not, then what?

Swampmama, I'm wondering about that too.  I.e., whether "the end of "normal" is when the rest of the masses start to wake up.  It seems like that is starting to happen now...more and more of what we know seems to be becoming part of the public consiousness.  More and more concepts like  "too much debt", "currency crisis", "quantitative easing" and "sovereign insolvency" seem to be bantered around, making people more aware of them.

Or maybe it is a bootstrapping kind of thing, where:  crisis (eg, Iceland, Greece) -> increased awareness (repeat over and over).  It does seem like the mask is coming close to being ripped off (e.g., if the Eurozone starts showing more cracks)...

Swampmama3's picture
Swampmama3
Status: Bronze Member (Offline)
Joined: Oct 28 2009
Posts: 72
Re: Is there time to pay off debt, and if not, then what?

pinecarr, I was having a discussion with a friend last night about similar issues.  I realized that for Americans to be aware, they would have to understand the lingo.  Just saying crap is happening because of quantitative easing, or any other reason won't help.  If it's not easily understood, their eyes will glaze over and they won't care enough to ask what you mean.  They'll assume its dry, boring, academic stuff they don't want to make room in their brain for.  The things they will understand is when their utility bill doubles, or the price of food doubles, fuel, etc.  When we start having power issues not because we don't have enough coal, but because we don't have enough diesel to get the coal to the power plant.  When cheap, convenient things start to disappear, then and only then will they bother themselves to wonder what's really going on, then even at that point, I'm sure they'll blame it on one political party or another and imagine they'll fix it all with the next election.  They'll be awake because their 'matrix' of comfort and convenience will be unplugged.  But they won't know how to fix it, who to blame, or what to do.  In short, they'll be REALLY pissed off and looking for something/someone to lynch.  They won't remember that you tried to tell them what was going on.  They won't want to hear that their hummers and mcmansions are the reason we are in the situation.  Only a few will be able to sneak off and join us, realizing the truth of the situaton.

MHO, anyway.   So, yes, there should be chaos.  Hopefully we'll all have enough time to remove ourselves from it in time, as much as possible.  I've already awakened all the people I can in my circles.  When I test the waters with the rest, I can tell they don't want to know.

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