The Zeitgeist Movement

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Morpheus
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The Zeitgeist Movement

Chris M, mods, et al.

Reproduced in it's entirety with explicit permission noted within the website conditional that the duplication and discussion are respectful. The copyright reproduction agreement is vague in that it requires respectful dialogue, but I don't think that Chris and the crew here would allow any other type. :)

Guys. I found the mission statement (shown below) to be very very interesting and DEFINITELY related, in a rather strong manner I might add, to the ideas of Energy, Environment, and Economy. 

Please have a read and comment. I love this place as so many bright and open-minded guys and gals add so much to the topics. I'd really like to read the discussion regarding this. 

Thanks, 

Pete

The Goal:
The Means is the End:
We intend to restore the fundamental necessities and environmental
awareness of the species through the avocation of the most current
understandings of who and what we truly are, coupled with how science,
nature and technology (rather than religion, politics and money) hold
the keys to our personal growth, not only as individual human beings,
but as a civilization, both structurally and spiritually. The central
insights of this awareness is the recognition of the Emergent and
Symbiotic elements of natural law and how aligning with these
understandings as the bedrock of our personal and social institutions,
life on earth can and will flourish into a system which will
continuously grow in a positive way, where negative social
consequences, such as social stratification, war, biases, elitism and
criminal activity will be constantly reduced and, idealistically,
eventually become nonexistent within the spectrum of human behavior
itself.
This possibility is, of course, very difficult for most humans to
consider, for we have been conditioned by society to think that crime,
corruption and dishonesty is "the way it is" and that there will always
be people who want to abuse, hurt and take advantage of others.
Religion is the largest promoter of this propaganda, for the "us and
them" or "good and evil" mentality promotes this false assumption.
The reality is that we live in a society that produces Scarcity. The
consequence of this scarcity is that human beings must behave in self
preserving ways, even if it means they have to cheat and steal in order
to get what they want. Our research has concluded that Scarcity is one
of the most fundamental causes of aberrant human behavior, while also
leading to complex forms of neurosis in other ways. A statistical look
at drug addiction, crime and incarceration statistics, finds that
poverty and unhealthy social conditions comprise the life experience of
those who engage in such behavior.
Human beings are not good or bad... they are running, forever changing
compositions of the life experience(s) that influences them. The
"quality" of a human being ( if there was such a thing ) is directly
related to the upbringing and thus belief systems they have been
conditioned into.
This simple reality has been grossly overlooked and today people
primitively think that competition, greed and corruption are
"hardwired" elements of human behavior and, in turn, we must have
prisons, police and hence a hierarchy of differential control in order
for society to deal with these "tendencies". This is totally illogical
and false.

The bottom line is that in order to change things for the better
fundamentally, you must begin to address root causes. Our current
society's system of "punishment" is outmoded, inhumane, and
unproductive. When a serial killer is caught, most people jump up and
down and scream for the death of that person. This is backwards. A
truly sane society, which understands what we are and how our value
systems are created, would take the individual and learn the reasons
behind his or her violent actions. This information would then go to a
research department which considers how to stop such conditions from
occurring through education.

It is time to
stop the patchwork. It is time to begin a new social approach which is
updated to present day knowledge. Sadly, society today is still largely
based on outmoded, superstitious dispositions and resolutions.

It
is also important to point out that there are no utopias or endings.
All evidence points to perpetual change on all levels. In turn, it is
our personal actions everyday of our lives that mold and perpetuate the
social systems we have in place. Yet, paradoxically, it is also our
environmental influences which create our perspectives and hence world
views. Therefore, true change will come not only from adjusting your
personal understandings and decisions, but equally from changing the
social structures that influence these understandings and decisions.

The
elite power systems are little affected in the long run by traditional
protest and political movements. We must move beyond these
'establishment rebellions' and work with a tool much more powerful:
We will stop supporting the system, while constantly advocating
knowledge, peace, unity and compassion. We cannot "fight the system".
Hate, anger and the 'war' mentality are failed means for change, for
they perpetuate the same tools the corrupt, established power systems
use to maintain control to begin with.


The Distortion and Paralysis:
When we understand that all systems are Emergent and
constantly in a state of evolution, along with the reality
that we are all Symbiotically connected to nature and each
other in the most simple yet profound ways, forcing the realization
that our personal integrity is only as high as the integrity
of the rest of society, we then see how twisted and backwards
our social establishments are and how their perpetuation is
largely the cause of the social instability in society. For
example, the Monetary System has been long deemed a positive
force in society due to its claim to produce incentive and
progress. In actuality, the monetary system has become a vehicle
for division and totalitarian control.
It is the ultimate form of "Divide and Conquer"
for at its very core are the assumptions that (1) We must
fight each other in order to survive. (2) Humans must have
this reward "Incentive" to do anything meaningful.

As far as Number 1 (We must fight each other in order to survive.),
this characteristic of 'competition' in the system guarantees
corruption in society on every level, for the basis is "us
against them". Many argue that the "free market
system" is good... but it is corrupt in the modern day
due to bad policies, favoritism, bailouts, etc. They assume
that if a "pure" free market was allowed to flourish
then it would be okay. This is false, for what you are seeing
today IS the Free market at work, with all its differential
advantage and corruption. No laws will ever stop the insider
trading, collusion, monopoly, labor abuse, pollution, planned
obsolescence or the like... this is what the competition based
system produces without fail, for it is based on the premise
of taking advantage of others for profit. Period.

We must begin to transition out of these oppressive ideals
and move towards a system which is "designed" to
support human beings... not force them to fight in order to
survive. As far as Number 2, (Humans must have this reward
"Incentive" to do anything meaningful.) this is
just a sad and an incredibly negative perspective of the human
being in general. To assume that a person must be "structurally
motivated" or hence "forced" into doing anything,
is just absurd. Think back to when you were a child and had
no idea what money even was. You played, were curious and
did many things... why? Because you wanted to. However, as
time goes on in our system, that natural curiosity and self-motivation
is stripped away from people, as they are forced to conform
to the specialized, compartmentalized, nearly predefined labor
system in order to survive. This, in turn, often creates a
natural rebellion within the person due to the forced obligation,
and this is how we came up with "leisure" and "work"
separations. The laziness assumed to exist by the monetary
system proponents (who claim it produces incentive) do not
recognize this. In a true society, people would follow their
natural inclinations and work to contribute to society not
because they are "paid" for it, but because they
have a greater awareness which recognizes that contributing
to society helps them just as much as everyone else. This
is the heightened state of awareness we hope to communicate.
Your reward for contributing to society is the well being
of that society... which, in turn, furthers your well being.

Now, putting things into perspective, it is important to
understand that our world is currently run, undeniably, by
a small group of dominant men in high positions of those institutions
which are most dominant in society- Business and Finance.
The establishment of government is in tandem with the influence
and power of corporations and banks. The life blood is money,
which is, in fact, an illusion that now has little relevance
to society and serves as a tool for manipulation and division
along a kind of social organization that guarantees elitism,
crime, war and social stratification.

Simultaneously, individuals are taught that being "correct"
is what creates their value as human beings. This state of
being "correct" is directly related to the prevailing
values of society itself. Therefore, those who accept and
support the social system's views are considered "normal",
while those who disagree are considered "abnormal"
or even "subversive". Whether it is the dogma of
a unique social tradition, or the alignment with a worldwide
establishment religion, the basis is the same: Intellectual
Materialism.
As we realize that knowledge and hence our institutions are
always evolving, we see that any belief system which claims
to "know" anything, without allowing for dispute,
is a failed perspective. Religion, with its foundation in
faith, is the king of this distortion, as it claims to know
something definitively about the most complex and elusive
origins of human kind, and this simply is not possible in
an emergent universe.
That being said, it is then realized that equally as dangerous
as the Establishment Power Structures, are the people who
have been conditioned to completely accept the static understandings
put forth by these systems... therefore becoming: "Self
Appointed Guardians of the Status Quo". This applies
to every system, especially political, financial and religious
systems. Since people's identities become associated with
the doctrines of a Country, Religion or Business ethic, it
often becomes very difficult for a person to change, for his
or her identity has become combined with the ideologies which
have been imposed upon them. Therefore, they perpetuate the
doctrine of the institution, simply to maintain their personal
integrity, as they see it.
We must break this cycle, for it paralyses our growth not
only as individuals, but as a society.

The Truth and Transition:
Once we understand that the integrity of our personal
existences are directly related to the integrity of the earth,
life and all other human beings, we then have our path predefined
for us. In turn, once we realize that it is science, technology
and hence human creativity which creates progress in our lives,
we are then able to recognize what our true priorities are
for social and personal growth and progress. These points
denoted, we can then see that Religion, Politics and the Money/Competition
based Labor system are outdated modes of social operation,
which must now be addressed and outgrown. Our avocation is
to achieve a social system which operates without money or
politics, while allowing superstition to work itself out as
education flourishes. It isn't the right of any person to
tell another what to believe, for no human has a full understanding
of anything. However, if we pay attention to the natural processes
of life, we then see how we can align with nature and thus
our path becomes more clear.
For example, many people are worried about population growth
on the planet, while very spooky comments by despotic figures
like Henry Kissinger claim that some kind of "reduction"
is needed. This is, of course, very scary. However, the real
question remains: Is population growth really that bad? The
answer is that from a scientific perspective the earth can
handle many, many times more people if need be, once high
technology is harnessed. 70% of our planet is water and cities
in the sea ( one of many projects by Jacque Fresco ) are the
next step. In turn, education about life operations will inform
people as to the ramifications of their reproductive interests
and population growth will naturally slow as people begin
to realize how they are related to the planet and its carrying
capacity.

In fact, the only true "government" that can possibly
exist is the earth and its resources. From there, all possibilities
can be assessed. This is why an intellectual unification of
all countries is needed, for the most important information
we as a species can have is a full, highly detailed assessment
of what we have on this planet. Just as you would examine
the land and resources of an acre of land to see what you
could do or grow on it, this is what needs to happen with
the planet in order to optimize what we are capable of as
a species, resource wise.

Of course, many who consider the ideas presented above will
often ask: "How can we do this considering the distorted
value systems which are currently in operation.? How do we
make such a move or transition?" This is, of course,
the most difficult question. The answer: We have to start
somewhere. There are many things that can be done by a single
person or community that can begin to shape this vision. The
most important step is education.

On March 15th 2009, ( or "ZDAY" as it was called
in 2008 ) there will be a worldwide action day to expand awareness
of this sociological direction. Our hope is to have regional
meetings in as many cities, states & countries as possible.
We here at thezeitgeistmovement.com will work to provide materials
in every language we can, while doing whatever we can to help
each subgroup. We will never ask for money. We are here to
help, for we understand one central truth that has been lost
for a long, long time:
The more you give- the more you get.

http://thezeitgeistmovement.com/home.html

Morpheus's picture
Morpheus
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Re: Teh Zeitgeist Movement

Now if the mods would kindly correct my spelling goof. (embarrassed) Yell

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cmartenson
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Re: Teh Zeitgeist Movement
MGhandi wrote:

Now if the mods would kindly correct my spelling goof. (embarrassed) Yell

I fixed teh problem.

Morpheus's picture
Morpheus
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Re: The Zeitgeist Movement

LOL!!

Thanks Chris. 

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Futuo
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Re: The Zeitgeist Movement

I'm quite wary of the Zeitgeist Movement. Why? Mainly because of the blatant disregard for facts the videos demonstrated, especially regarding religion. They take a very critical and insulting view of religion, built upon a foundation which has been proven false. If you want references regarding this, and line-by-line critiques of the first third of the original video, let me know. Unfortunately, the makers of the movie took works from an Egyptologist who was never taken seriously by his colleagues (since he never produced the hieroglyphs upon which he founded his claims), and has not ever been vindicated by "Science". Which brings me to my next point...their deification of "Science" is something I find rather alarming.

 I do agree with their point about retributive versus rehabilitative justice.

However, the statement that, "They assume
that if a "pure" free market was allowed to flourish
then it would be okay. This is false, for what you are seeing
today IS the Free market at work, with all its differential
advantage and corruption" is at least naive, if not dishonest. Considering the movie's work regarding banking and monetary policy, you'd think the author would realize that there is no "free market" when a centralized bank arbitrarily determines interest rates. That's just one example of an institution that immediately destroys any notion of the "free market's" current existance. 

"No laws will ever stop the insider
trading, collusion, monopoly, labor abuse, pollution, planned
obsolescence or the like... this is what the competition based
system produces without fail, for it is based on the premise
of taking advantage of others for profit. Period." That too is naive. Capitalism is an attractive theory because it takes certain premises that are inherent to human nature, and tries to utilize them in its economic system. All that corruption and such is not a product of capitalism...human nature makes us selfish, our instincts make us survivalists. The brilliant part of capitalism is that it seeks to exploit these "bad" characteristics, because our human nature is the one thing we all have in common. Our human nature, our drive for survival, for action, is the one unifying factor amongst us all.

I would like to juxtapose two statements which, to me, seem contradictory:

"It
is also important to point out that there are no utopias" and

"In a true society, people would follow their
natural inclinations and work to contribute to society not
because they are "paid" for it, but because they
have a greater awareness which recognizes that contributing
to society helps them just as much as everyone else."

I haven't heard of many ideas that could be considered more utopian. New Harmony, Oneida, Brook Farm, and Twin Oaks each testify to the implementation of their ideas. They didn't last very long.

"Your reward for contributing to society is the well being
of that society... which, in turn, furthers your well being."

Not necessarily true. What if your personal preferences conflict with the well being of society? Who determines the well being of society? What happens to the people who contribute less than others to said well being? What if the well being of society conflicts with the well being of an individual? What if people want to leave the society?

 And then we come to this blurb about aquatic cities...great. So, once you've developed a way of living in/on the water without having to worry about enivornmental damages, danger from tsunamis, monsoons, and hurricanes, everything will be okay? The issue with human population growth isn't the square mileage of land on the Earth...it's the finite amount of natural resources available for our consumption and utilization. 

 I'm also not  a big fan of this progress ideal. "In turn, once we realize that it is science, technology
and hence human creativity which creates progress in our lives,
we are then able to recognize what our true priorities are
for social and personal growth and progress."

Creates progress? So progress is an ends in itself...why? Progress isn't even defined, yet it seems to be the one value above them all. Whether personal or societal, they are falling into the same trap that the Crash Course points out: the inability to question the inherent goodness of things like "growth" and "progress". What are we progressing to? As long as that question remains unanswered, and progress undefined, I find nothing compelling about the argument presented. All I see "progress" possibly even remotely leading to under their paradigm are these utopian communities which would require nothing short of a statist government to force everyone to adopt this utilitarian mindset. The authors talk alot about breaking free of the paralyses [sic] imposed by current societal institutions...may I point out that they fail to explain how their newfound communities basd on technology and progress aren't institutional? How are you going to convince everyone that they ought to take the most pleasure out of contributing to others? So long as there exist those who disagree with that paradigm, so long as human beings continue to be inherently selfish, so long as evolutionary biology continues to influence our instinct of self-preservation, this will not work.

 I would be very wary of allying ourselves (meaning the community here) with one such as Zeitgeist. From their ties with conspiracy theories (not that I disbelieve them: this is purely an issue of credibility) to their intolerant view of religion (again, not that I'm some proponent of institutionalized, organized religion), there is too much here that seeks to be discordant.

 Overall, I do like the video Zeitgeist and the Addendum. However, it scares me when I hear about how many people watch a movie that's basic thesis is "everything is not as it seems, don't believe everything you see", and then accept unconditionally what's presented in that movie. 

I've got a lot more to say, but we'll see where things go from here :P

 

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Ruhh
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Re: The Zeitgeist Movement

I personally quite enjoyed both Zeitgeist films but you have to take it all in with an open mind and a salt shaker.

I do have to credit Zeitgeist Addendum to leading me here one way or another. Basically the part about money got me asking more questions and a short while later I ended up here. Originally I had been promoting the Zeitgeist films to friends as a way to open their minds but many simply dismiss it all as foilhead paranoia. Since I've found the Crash Course I stick to promoting it instead. One of the lines I end up throwing in about the Crash Course is "No conspiracy, no religion, no prophecy, no bullsh!t"

On another note I really liked some of Jacques Fresco's ideas and part of The Venus Project. Some of them I found a little naive and utopian but definitely worth exploring.

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Re: The Zeitgeist Movement
Zeitgeist Movement wrote:

“We intend to restore the fundamental necessities and environmental awareness of the species through the avocation of the most current understandings of who and what we truly are...”

We immediately can see that these people's grasp of the English language is not strong.  The above piece of text is part of their organization statement, and therefore would have almost certainly been reviewed by more than one person before being released.  That nobody noticed the malapropism, or even bothered to look up the meaning of a word which they did not know, means that the ranks of this organization may not have been drawn from a particularly strong academic tradition.  Often this can indicate an institutional anti-intellectualism.

Quote:

When a serial killer is caught, most people jump up and down and scream for the death of that person. This is backwards. A truly sane society, which understands what we are and how our value systems are created, would take the individual and learn the reasons behind his or her violent actions. This information would then go to a research department which considers how to stop such conditions from occurring through education.

Universities have been researching this for quite some time.  For example, in the 1970’s a study was done of the fourteen minors then on death row in all of the United States, for unspeakably horrific murders.  It was found that of these 14 youths, 12 had been severely beaten and sexually abused by their parents, and the 13th had been, at least, badly abused physically.

The solution naturally suggests itself:  stop parents from abusing their children.

But nay.  The Zeitgeist Movement believes it is “totally illogical” for our communities to keep prisons, police and courts.  So how, then, do we stop the drunk child abusers who will shoot anybody who comes near their house?  The Zeitgeist Movement is silent on the specifics.

And incidentally, university professors don’t have any kind of special security clearance.  There is nothing stopping the researchers of the ZM from visiting prisons, interviewing criminals, and then deciding “how to stop such conditions from occurring through education.”

Quote:

In a true society, people would follow their natural inclinations and work to contribute to society not because they are "paid" for it, but because they have a greater awareness which recognizes that contributing to society helps them just as much as everyone else. This is the heightened state of awareness we hope to communicate.

Please do. I know some people who have reached this level of self-awareness, but not very many.

Zeitgeist Movement wrote:

Is population growth really that bad? The
answer is that from a scientific perspective the earth can
handle many, many times more people if need be, once high
technology is harnessed.  70% of our planet is water and cities in the sea ( one of many projects by Jacque Fresco) are the next step.

  Are they doing anything to help figure out how to build floating cities?  Or are they just throwing stones, and hoping that "somebody else" will figure out how to build the floating metropoli?  Everybody would like to see floating train stations, floating ore refineries, and floating baseball parks!  Will the raw materials come from floating forests and floating coal mines?

The statement above reveals a degree of utter ignorance which simply begs to be poked fun at.  We are not running out of physical space on the earth, we are running out of resources.  We don’t need floating cities.  We need to figure out a way not to destroy the earth while extracting the resources that humans need to live.  An individual human needs a certain amount of resources:  a certain amount of carbon, a certain amount of protein, a certain amount of daily water.  The ZM’s lack of understanding even of the fundamental nature of the resource problems facing us now begins to lend greater weight to the speculation regarding their anti-intellectualism.  They claim to have ultimate faith in science and technology, but are ignorant of scientific principles.  That makes them seem more like a religion.

Quote:

For example, there is a large movement of people who constantly talk about "The New World Order" and this notion that there is an elite group of people who have been trying to take over the world for a long time and have manipulated society in various ways to further their goals.

This, of course, is true to a certain extent.

BUT, the failure of awareness is that this "group" is not a group at all. It is a tendency.

Now, this is a great truth.  If only more people realized this.  People’s need to believe in “secret conspiracies” is one of the easiest mental tricks which allow then to throw up their hands and say, "It’s out of our hands.”  If this psychological trick for absolving oneself of responsibility for what goes on in one’s community could be extinguished, it would be a great good.

Zeitgeist Movement wrote:

“We can continue to stomp on the ants coming out from under the refrigerator, but until we remove the spoiled food behind it, they are just going to keep coming.”

Everything that the Zeitgeist Movement says seems to end up on this note.  Much hot air, and no concrete ideas.  If they have any real ideas, what are they?  If these ideas work, then why don’t they demonstrate them on a group of people?  “The Government” doesn’t have a monopoly on that thing called education!  If they have ideas which will cause the great mass of people to work without pay, then why don’t they demonstrate them?

 

They have an open invitation to come to my town.  The town selectmen may appoint them as a “special educational committee”, so it will all be official, and they can then go forth into the community, stamp out all crime, and cause people to be willing to work without pay.  Come, please.  Come to our town and show how this works.  Any time.

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Futuo
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Re: The Zeitgeist Movement

jrf, I couldn't agree more. Also the differentiation between paralyses and paralyzes doesn't seem to be understood - they mistook the plural form of the noun paralysis for the verb. Oh well.

Ruhh,

 I too enjoyed them, and that's where I think the danger lies. There are appeals to logos, but they're buried in contextualizing appeals to ethos and pathos, which really muddles the movies and makes them, in my opinion, more entertainment like. I too made the switch to crash course promotion - not only does the CC exclude religion and conspiracies, but it excludes appeals to emotion, which I feel really compromise whatever message Zeitgeist is trying to send. The CC is great because it's not the type of thing you want to cuddle up and watch with your significant other on a friday night (well, at least not most of us lol), nor is it so inundated as to be either completely hit-or-miss. Many people instantly turn away from Zeitgeist because of it's aggression, whereas the CC is more receivable due to its scientific presentation, and relation to specific current events and occurrences. 

Also, I looked at their forums a little bit and definitely see an even greater need for moderators around here. Not to talk trash, but I wouldn't want our forums ending up like that...

 

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Mike Pilat
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Re: The Zeitgeist Movement

ahhh. I don't have the time and energy for a lengthy comment, but I am familiar with the Zeitgeist mvoement. There are a few basic truths that it holds, but I think these are more coincidental than a result of objective, unbiased, professional research. Along with many of you, I felt insulted intellectually and spiritually by its treatment of religion. There are many claims that are incorrect.

I hope that we can keep this site relatively pure of direct linkages with other movements like that. It dillutes the intellectual integrity and tireless fact checking that I have come to cherish here. 

Mike

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Ruhh
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Re: The Zeitgeist Movement

Futuo;

I agree that the series seems like entertainment. A friend of mine said while promoting the Crash Course that it isn't as fun as Zeitgeist because it lacks a soundtrack to play on one's emotions. It's rather unfortunate really that people need information to be infotainment in order for them to actually pay attention.

Mike;

I've read a bit on how their claims on religion isn't much more than misinformation and I doubt that the producers are true scholars in the field. I think that is beyond their intentions though. Looking past their aggression, my assumption is that what they are trying to accomplish is to get people to question their blind faith in their leaders, religious or political, and to think for themselves. That in itself is something I think needs to be promoted.

cheers
r.

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Re: The Zeitgeist Movement
Mike Pilat wrote:

<snip>

I hope that we can keep this site relatively pure of direct linkages with other movements like that. It dillutes the intellectual integrity and tireless fact checking that I have come to cherish here. 

Mike

I  agree with your comment Mike. I also appreciate the detailed analysis of the Zeitgeist Movement on the above posts.

Out of curiosity, I have yet to come across any mention of the Technocracy Movement on this site. Are any posters to this thread aware of that movement?  M King Hubbert was involved with it back in the 1930s.

Coop

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Re: The Zeitgeist Movement

Isn't ultimately the ZM aiming for socialism?   Supposedly a 'free' market is bad as we can see now what it leads to.  So, we should have instead "system which is 'designed' to support human beings... not force them to fight in order to survive".  To me that sounds like a socialist society where we all have enough to survive, but extra resources will not be spent on luxury items etc. 

I think in an ideal world socialism would be fine.  Unfortunately someone still has to run a socialist society, and if its some of our fellow humans, I have no faith that over time there will not be any sort of corruption or poorly allocated resources, no matter how smart we are. 

Although a truly free market can lead towards favoritism & corruption (as we see now), that is only if the populace is lax is in its duties to police the government and demand enforcement of the laws, and protection of everyone's rights.  I think asking our fellow citizens to care about gov't and world events etc enough to act may be as futile as believing a socialist society will be run by benevolent rulers, but at least there is hope.  With a socialist society, I KNOW that in time there will be abuse, because that is just human nature. 

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Re: The Zeitgeist Movement

Hi johnson,

I think that our society is caught with references to the past failures with 'Isms' such as socialism. I believe the only way we can go forward is if we begin a new ideal rather than patch repair the present one; if indeed we ever can. I've just added more to Blind Joe's thread that he put up on the 11th of January. The ideas from this have been very useful to me and surely deserve more debate?

http://www.peakprosperity.com/forum/martian-lands-denver-wrong-side-tracks/11476

Kind Regards,

Paul

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Re: The Zeitgeist Movement

Mike. I too have issues with their discussion of religion. However, I have done some research into that aspect and their work is accurate but incomplete. I have found that the religion aspect of the movie is a thought stopper for most people. This I believe it due to the strong institutionized thought processes related to most organized faiths.

For the record, I am not an atheist. It appears to me (key word ~ "appear", correct me if I am wrong, I'll gladly accept any refutation) that you are in motive questioning mode based on what I perceive to be an offended stance regarding their treatment of faith (based on the observation that this is your leadoff objection). I would hope that you would not throw the baby out with the bathwater. Rarely do I ever agree 100% with any analysis of virtually anything, but that does not prevent me from seeking nuggets of truth within the piece of communication that I am digesting. For if it did, I would be nothing more than a nilhist, having rejected everything because nothing existed that I entirely agree with. 

Second, I could not disagree more with you the inference that I sense that you find it desirable to keep other lines of thinking out of this forum. Whether you agree with any or none of the aspects of Zeitgeist, there are many cogent points in the video that are absolutely germaine to the three E's. And that is, I presume, the thesis of this forum. The most difficult hurdle in my life was myself Mike. Myself in that I would become myopic in my thinking, refusing to entertain alternative ideas for fear that it would distract myself from "what was closest to truth". That very myopia prevented me from seeing different viewpoints, many, including the crux of Chris' tenets, which today hold MORE validity than past paridigms of thought. Now, I would hope that you do not think that I am directing a subtle insinuation at you (just thought of that as an unintentional implication of my writing). That is not my motive. My motive is to share, as a general warning, the lost growth that I personally suffered when I myself would have at one time made a similar statement. Your motives, your thoughts, your processes I am sure are quite different than mine. And honestly, it'd be absurd to assume anything about you based on a short post. But, it's entirely possible that someone out there might fall into the same trap that I once did by misreading or misinterpreting what you posted. And that's where I politely take issue. I do not fear challenges to my belief system. I have actually, and through painful lessons, learned to savior them. For if my present paradigm can withstand intense intellectual assault, then I am comforted by the increase in confidence. If it cannot, then I am grateful that I was re-directed to something that either clarified, enhanced, or even restructured my thinking. 

So, in short, I do not see differing viewpoints, cogent with respect to the three E's, as a threat. I see them as critical and necessary. I even continue to challenge and re-challenge Chris' stated beliefs. Why? To see if they continue to hold up against scrutiny and emergent information. I would hope that other's would do the same for me. I see that several here are not keen on Zeitgeist. Fantastic. I'd rather read criticisms than affirmations. Affirmations are for egos, criticisms are a test of truth. 

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Mike Pilat
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Re: The Zeitgeist Movement

Points well taken, Ghandi. I have watched the entire Zeitgeist piece start to finish and I found its treatment of the Federal Reserve to be informative and interesting. I'd like to think I have a very open mind in the sense that I'm willing to listen to differing viewpoints, though that doesn't guarantee I'm about to change my own. I believe that this forum is at its best when a wide variety of viewpoints are brought forth. I expressed my opinion and I welcome others to express theirs. 

There are many nuggets of truth in Zeitgeist but my main point of contention is that I got the sense it was presented more as an expression of the author's beliefs and ideals rather than a truly objective analysis of facts and evidence. I believe the Crash Course has done a very good job of walking the tightrope of objectivity. Perhaps Zeitgeist would consider me the most in-denial brainwashed sop out there, but I actually don't think that religion is extremely pertinent to the primary issues at hand. At least, I believe that religious affiliations don't need to be changed in order to deal with our most signficant challenges. The choice of juxtaposing religion with monetary systems is intriguing, but unpalatable for many and ends up hurting the points made in either half of Zeitgeist. In my opinion, it would be most effective if it presented the issues in two independent films.

Just my two cents, and thank you for the feedback you had. You can be assured that I practically never truly close off new sources of information and I have certainly enjoyed the nuggets of knowledge in the film you refer to.

Thanks,

Mike

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Clairvoyant
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Re: The Zeitgeist Movement

im a member of The Zeitgeist Movement, and i found this great site through the Zeitgeist forums..

First of all, the whole movement has "moved away" from the first zeitgeist movie, its really not as important as the Addendum, the movies were made by Peter Joseph, and at the time he was making the first movie, i think he wasnt quite aware of The Venus Project.

Right now TZM is considered as the activist arm of TVP, so the goal of the movement is TVP and not the conspiracy stuff, which i and many other members consider a huge hinderance to the whole movement.

 

it is understandable that you have issues with certain parts of the movies, i myself have issues, but the basic underlying points it makes and goals and solutions it gives are extremely usefull, and i completely agree with them.

you here have made a few STANDARD "questions/statements" about "problems" which are very well addressed in the forums and in the reading and viewing and listening material on the zeitgeist movement site..

therefore i would ask you to do RESEARCH on those points on the site itself, because these "problems" you state, which you may view as IMPASSABLE are, quite easily dealt with and are actually quite naive.

i guess what im saying is youre dismissing the whole thing on the basis of a few unresearched and uneducated assumptions which actually dont really make sense in a world that TVP proposes..

another matter you must take into consideration is whether youre talking about the transitional phase from todays system to a TVP type system, or if youre talking about an implemented TVP or better said RBE(resource based economy) system, there is ofcourse a big difference between these two stages (transition and fully implemented)..

check the site, you will surely find many answers to your questions, give the movement a chance, because we all know the way things are today is leading into the abyss..

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Clairvoyant
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Re: The Zeitgeist Movement

i just wanted to address the most aggressive post here, sorry for the double posting.

 

jrf29 wrote:
Zeitgeist Movement wrote:

“We intend to restore the fundamental necessities and environmental awareness of the species through the avocation of the most current understandings of who and what we truly are...”

We immediately can see that these people's grasp of the English language is not strong.  The above piece of text is part of their organization statement, and therefore would have almost certainly been reviewed by more than one person before being released.  That nobody noticed the malapropism, or even bothered to look up the meaning of a word which they did not know, means that the ranks of this organization may not have been drawn from a particularly strong academic tradition.  Often this can indicate an institutional anti-intellectualism.

 

yes, lets focus on an english language error and dismiss the whole thing based on that Tongue out

jrf29 wrote:
Quote:

When a serial killer is caught, most people jump up and down and scream for the death of that person. This is backwards. A truly sane society, which understands what we are and how our value systems are created, would take the individual and learn the reasons behind his or her violent actions. This information would then go to a research department which considers how to stop such conditions from occurring through education.

Universities have been researching this for quite some time.  For example, in the 1970’s a study was done of the fourteen minors then on death row in all of the United States, for unspeakably horrific murders.  It was found that of these 14 youths, 12 had been severely beaten and sexually abused by their parents, and the 13th had been, at least, badly abused physically.

The solution naturally suggests itself:  stop parents from abusing their children.

But nay.  The Zeitgeist Movement believes it is “totally illogical” for our communities to keep prisons, police and courts.  So how, then, do we stop the drunk child abusers who will shoot anybody who comes near their house?  The Zeitgeist Movement is silent on the specifics.

in an implemented TVP it would be illogical, because these problems would be partially(mostly) solved through education, but during a transition period ofcourse there will be a need for laws and prisons etc.

and you are clearly missing the point here, its not about healing the symptoms, its about finding the root cause of those symptoms and addressing the root cause, which is actually scarcity, scarcity of resources, scarcity of education etc. which is the primary cause that has led to those parents abusing their children, or its a genetic issue which has to be addressed differently.

jrf29 wrote:

And incidentally, university professors don’t have any kind of special security clearance.  There is nothing stopping the researchers of the ZM from visiting prisons, interviewing criminals, and then deciding “how to stop such conditions from occurring through education.”

just goes to show that you have not properly researched the movement or the people behind it, displaying your complete ignorance and obviously a lack of will to get educated on a subject before spitting criticism,

primarly im talking about Jacque Fresco and his life story, he is 93 at the moment, the man has traveled the world and lived in different extreme societies ranging from isolated islands and primitive cultures, to people believing the earth was flat, most backward rednecks, also joined the KKK and dissolved their chapter in miami in a month, joined another group for white power nazis and dissolved that group as well, worked with additcs etc.

so this man HAS visited, interviewed and actually LIVED with criminals and other types of extreme people.

watch this if you call yourself an intellectual, or as i would say, if youre not a dumbed down critic who CANT and WONT see whats right in front of his eyes and prefers to spit nonsense feeling hes all great

 

Zeitgeist Movement wrote:

Is population growth really that bad? The answer is that from a scientific perspective the earth can handle many, many times more people if need be, once high technology is harnessed.  70% of our planet is water and cities in the sea ( one of many projects by Jacque Fresco) are the next step.

 

jrf29 wrote:

Are they doing anything to help figure out how to build floating cities?  Or are they just throwing stones, and hoping that "somebody else" will figure out how to build the floating metropoli?  Everybody would like to see floating train stations, floating ore refineries, and floating baseball parks!  Will the raw materials come from floating forests and floating coal mines?

actually yes, Jacque has many many designs and solutions, but also has his reasons for not publishing those in todays capitalistim society which would only take advantage of such ideas to make a profit.

jrf29 wrote:

The statement above reveals a degree of utter ignorance which simply begs to be poked fun at.  We are not running out of physical space on the earth, we are running out of resources.  We don’t need floating cities.  We need to figure out a way not to destroy the earth while extracting the resources that humans need to live.  An individual human needs a certain amount of resources:  a certain amount of carbon, a certain amount of protein, a certain amount of daily water.  The ZM’s lack of understanding even of the fundamental nature of the resource problems facing us now begins to lend greater weight to the speculation regarding their anti-intellectualism.  They claim to have ultimate faith in science and technology, but are ignorant of scientific principles.  That makes them seem more like a religion.

and again pure ignorance of the whole movement and primarly The Venus Project, the floating cities are not about running out of physical space, but an idea of what could be done, especially in the case of wanting to preserve land as natural and not defiled by humans.

there is no lack of understanding of resource problems, you obviously dont understand how much of todays resources are WASTED, things made non recyclable, this is a major issue that TVP aims to address,

and lets not forget, LUXURY items like a yacht or a car in a TVP world arent meant as MY POSSESION, MY PROPERTY, to have MY car sit in a parking lot for 8 hours a day while i work is a COMPLETE waste of resources, in a TVP world you would take a car, yacht or whatever WHEN u need it, and just return it when u dont need it, so others could use it (not wasting resources on making all those cars and yachts and have them waste time and resources just rotting away on a parking lot or a port)


jrf29 wrote:


Zeitgeist Movement wrote:

“We can continue to stomp on the ants coming out from under the refrigerator, but until we remove the spoiled food behind it, they are just going to keep coming.”

Everything that the Zeitgeist Movement says seems to end up on this note.  Much hot air, and no concrete ideas.  If they have any real ideas, what are they?  If these ideas work, then why don’t they demonstrate them on a group of people?  “The Government” doesn’t have a monopoly on that thing called education!  If they have ideas which will cause the great mass of people to work without pay, then why don’t they demonstrate them?

 

They have an open invitation to come to my town.  The town selectmen may appoint them as a “special educational committee”, so it will all be official, and they can then go forth into the community, stamp out all crime, and cause people to be willing to work without pay.  Come, please.  Come to our town and show how this works.  Any time.

again your lack of knowledge, there is an experimental city planned, but its not happening soon, the movement isnt RICH (has a lot of money) and cant just go about making a city without resources, but thats beside the point.

the movement isnt LOCAL its not meant to be for a community, even though there are many communities of that type around the world, and even people from the movement advocating the creation of such communities, but the reasons why Peter Joseph and Jacque and Roxanne arent promoting this is

you may make an isolated community thats self sustainable, but the problem is, its still on the planet earth, and it will inevitably be forced to ineract with the outside world, what good is your community if a nuclear bomb is dropped near you, or if a toxic spill polutes your water supply or any of the other global issues that may rise, just imagine a city with people living comfortable lives, while outside you have food shortages, no energy, riots, wars etc. that city will most definitely get invaded..

and another note, you cant just rip the system out of the people, they are too conditioned and too dumbed down, first of all they must be willing to change, and thats what this movement is about, spreading awareness, educating people about the world, and that it doesnt have to be like this, and the Crash Course on this site is a great eye opener which i will most definitely use before i introduce people to The Venus Project.

 

and please at least watch the link i provided, here it is again:

 

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jneo
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Posts: 742
Re: The Zeitgeist Movement

 

The movement is brilliant, but society is not mature enough to handle it yet.  Well, probably the American society could not handle it.  With all the vanity and materialism pumped into their minds.  The U.S. teaches this "me me me" mentality.  

Look at the human body as a perfect example as to how society should designed and act.  The human body does not compete, it's not greedy or corrupt.  It distributes all resources intelligently, there is no upper 1% getting all the blood, o2 and so on.  

When people move away from the primitive money based society, I think a lot of the fundamentals of the ZM will emerge.  

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John99
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Posts: 490
Re: The Zeitgeist Movement

Good comments, all. I liked the ZG movies and have referred them to many. I salute Peter Joseph's creativity and allow for issues I'm not quite on side for, but open to explore.

 What I am hung up on is how do we effect change, now? I like what he he points out.....

 The elite power systems are little affected in the long run by traditional protest and political movements. We must move beyond these 'establishment rebellions' and work with a tool much more powerful: We will stop supporting the system, while constantly advocating knowledge, peace, unity and compassion.

To this end, I have removed my cash from the banking system and bought PM's. In doing this, the false banking system is deprived of my money to 'fractionally reserve' multiply it into a a much higher amount to be issued as new debt upon fellow citizens, and have recommended the same, here on the CM site, that we all do this.

By Constitutional decree, government is supposed to be creating our money and they can do this debt-free. Do we miss the disconnect that by leaving our money in the banks, we are by default, perpetuating this system of debt, which is sinking the whole world?

Would like to hear other suggestions for effecting change. Thank for the post, Morpheus.

 

zeitgeistworker's picture
zeitgeistworker
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Joined: May 5 2013
Posts: 1
transition

regarding the zeitgeist movement

this is probably the most relevant thing to see, for people familiar with the movement

http://zeitgeistworker.wordpress.com/

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