Swiss getting disarmed at last?

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Nime's picture
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Swiss getting disarmed at last?

This is following a side-discussion in another thread, where strabes raised the point of Switzerland being an armed society thus less prone to society control etc. 

http://edition.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/europe/02/24/switzerland.gun.army.refe...

It seems that they currently can have guns but no ammo (which is a bit pointless, isn't it?) but soon even this will have to stored in the barracks. So it seems NWO is working on all fronts to ensure we are all helpless subjects. 

capesurvivor's picture
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Re: Swiss getting disarmed at last?

Funny,

Happening right after Swiss gnomes screwed up their currency.

However, U.S. stats (no url handy,sorry) do show weapon in home is 2x more likely to be used for suicide than self defense. It's like the bible, though, you can probably find a statement to support whatever you want to do.

 

SG

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Re: Swiss getting disarmed at last?

Nime - thanks for bringing this up.  I think your comments and concerns are right on the mark!

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Re: Swiss getting disarmed at last?

A great way to treat the symptoms: People are depressed and committing suicide, so let's remove guns.

Absolutely ridiculous. We're rapidly approaching the end of the Road to Serfdom.

My question has always been: if the People's guns are removed, then someone must have guns to enforce order on the people. This generally means national military in the end game of a Police State scenario.

So...what side of the fence does the American military fall on??? Let's not forget the Stanford prison experiment (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanford_prison_experiment), Nuremberg Trials ("just following orders"), or Tiananmen Square. If this global personal disarmament trend continues, do we really have evidence to believe that our liberty will survive in any way, shape, or form?

 

capesurvivor's picture
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Re: Swiss getting disarmed at last?

Don't worry, I don't want to disarm anyone but bad guys.

SG

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Re: Swiss getting disarmed at last?

The problem is who defines "bad" guy?  It will soon be defined as any individualist who wants to maintain his 2nd amendment right.  The police/military went after plenty of such "bad" guys in New Orleans (even an old woman who happened to be holding her pistol when the cops came to her house...they pounced on her and beat her to a pulp).

So that article is bad news.  The arrogance of the elite is so disgusting.  Some are just arrogant utopians who think their gene pool is better than the masses who don't carry Prada bags.  Others are duplicitous and really only want disarmament so they can dominate and take control.  But I don't think it will be that easy to disarm the Swiss.  If the powers that be think it's going to be that easy, they have some bad news coming.  They take this issue very seriously.  See this video and read the description on the right...a population that is cool with guys strapping their assault rifles on their back while riding through town is a right-minded population, as opposed to the sheep in the US who would call the cops on this guy riding his bike...

This shows how important it is to control the elite vs. the other way around because they will do everything they can to oppress the masses.  The Swiss should put in tougher immigration laws to test rich people's political views before they allow them to move into their country!  Cool   It's too late now given the haven Switzerland already is for people who think they're better than people with less money, less refinement.  But if I ever have the privilege of running such a country, big-minded elites will be shipped out.

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Re: Swiss getting disarmed at last?

Uh,

I meant felons.

SG

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Re: Swiss getting disarmed at last?

Hey Cape,

Even "felon" can be a misleading term.
Practically, the "control" aspect of any given subject is faulty by design, and cannot deter possession.

A felon could be a guy who put his brother in a headlock and got charged with Assault 4 DV.
Is he really a bad guy, or is he a prior service Marine with a upstanding record, a decent job and a life?

Drugs, guns, speech, fast cars, whatever - banning possession is almost always a matter of subjectivity, and no matter what the conditions of the legislation, always restricts only those who follow the law.

Laws should be few, meaningful and enforceable.
The system of "ad hoc" and subjective law that we have in America today is a joke.

Just a few thoughts from a unabashed libertarian.
Once the world goes to hell, we'll be able to say "See, told ya so." ;)

Cheers!

Aaron

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Re: Swiss getting disarmed at last?

Cape - "Felon" is a political term...defined by politicians...elitists who go to elitist law schools.  Under FDR people who owned gold became felons.  Under most regimes people who own weapons become felons.  That will soon be the case in the US.  Then "good" cops just doing their duty will need to consider them the "bad" guys, according to your passive stance to let politicians determine for you what is good vs bad.

 

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Re: Swiss getting disarmed at last?
strabes wrote:

So that article is bad news. 

I agree. I just realized my subject does make it seem as if I was glad they will be disarmed. 

I also, again, think you overestimate them. While you are right they have tight immigration laws much of the NWO agenda has filtered through to their mentality and legal system already. Note also that they can't keep ammo in their homes already - which makes the arms they're still allowed to keep useles. If they accepted that keeping arms at the barracks will be logical next step. We'll see. 

strabes wrote:

But if I ever have the privilege of running such a country, big-minded elites will be shipped out.

Do you have any plans in this area? :)

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Re: Swiss getting disarmed at last?

Legally,

That is true but bad folks are like pornography, you know them when you see them. The test is do you want to live next door to them?

 

SG

 

 

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Re: Swiss getting disarmed at last?
cape wrote:

That is true but bad folks are like pornography, you know them when you see them. The test is do you want to live next door to them?

You mean for example how we know most politicians we see on TV are bad folks...they are the uber felons...yet people still vote for them and let them rule and define who is a felon.  Plus anybody who criticizes them is spun as a bad guy in the media.  What a crazy Orwellian world.  

I want to live next door to anybody who engages in competent firearm usage.  But those people are soon to be called felons.

The problem with your definition, which I would love to go with, is that the government doesn't operate that way.  TSA treats everyone as a bad guy.  ATF treats patriots as the bad guys.  IRS violates property rights and then treats as a bad guy anybody who resists or complains.  Justice and police treat citizens as bad guys who need licenses, IDs, insurance, permits, etc. for anything they do, yet they let illegal immigrants run rampant with no paperwork at all.  And military and law enforcement operations don't take the time to use your test.  Having been a military officer, I know the game face that goes on once LD time (line of departure) is crossed.  There's no thinking, no evaluating, no processing.  You just do your job...achieve the mission.  When the feds pass a new law to ban firearm ownership in the US, suddenly thousands of police around the country will consider firearm owners "bad guys" for no reason other than a new piece of paper has been signed in DC by elitists who want to disarm americans.  Those "professional" police and military types will then use violent force to enforce that law.  They could care less whether you look like a bad guy or not.  See this video:

I'm trying to get military and law enforcement people to wakeup to this submissive mentality they have.  My old army buddies are good people, but they're too willing to mindlessly do whatever they're told, whether it feels right in their gut or not. They're trained to suppress their gut. "Bullets are flying son, get moving, shoot those bastards, no time to sit around and figure out your feelings!!"  That's a useful mentality in war, though still dangerous.  It's a horrific mentality in law enforcement.  Even national guard leaders are voicing this type of crap "if the feds tell us we need to do this, then we'll do it, we'll be a part of a combined team to do the right thing."  Uhuh.  In other words, they're willing to be pawns of the federal government regardless of how unconstitutional it is.   

 

 

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Re: Swiss getting disarmed at last?
Nime wrote:

Note also that they can't keep ammo in their homes already - which makes the arms they're still allowed to keep useles. 

I know the law says they can't, but is your impression that they actually don't?  I have no way of knowing myself, but my guess would be that the Swiss said "F you, I'll keep a couple thousand rounds hidden in my backyard."

 

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Re: Swiss getting disarmed at last?

Yes,

Your scenario is scary; you have to hope that our fellow citizens won't let us be labeled felons for owning weapons, though hope is a thin reed. I, too, worry about the Guard becoming THEM and not our neighbors.

I (barely) managed to evade my war (Nam); I couldn't figure out why I should let my country ship me 12k miles to shoot people that did not seem to be a threat to me. I was just about to head North when I got a 1Y and they drafted some poor SOB from the ghetto in my place, I always assumed.

The military mindset is pretty far from my own. Any vocational interest test has always put me 180 degrees from all kinds of military officer.

 I'm afraid that I will do my best to survive and support like-minded fellow citizens in small ways; I'll leave the  big picture stuff to folks like you. Not to be too cynical, I don't think anything big is going to change, by citizen design anyway, in the U.S.

 

GLTA.

 

SG

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Re: Swiss getting disarmed at last?

Murky truth behind Swiss suicide ‘clinic’ Dignitas

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article5006805.ece

"Barbara Weil, of the Swiss Medical Association, said it had been scientifically proven that if the guns were less freely available the number of suicides would drop."

Okay to kill yourself at Dignitas, just not with a gun, too messy. I believe that my life belongs to me, not the state, if I wish to end my life it's my business, just have to figure out a way not to burden someone else with the remains.

Some of todays headlines are really making me angry, I'm going home,

Greg

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Re: Swiss getting disarmed at last?

Yeah exactly, they want to control everything about people's lives, AND their deaths.  These are the same people who believe in eugenics and population reduction of undesirables.  So if they kill you, that's cool, but you aren't free to choose it yourself.  Can't believe I have to live in this world with such sick control freaks.  Why do people give them power!?  Ugh!

But of course this whole issue has nothing to do with stopping suicide.  If it were they'd outlaw cars, bridges, sleeping pills, and every other way to kill yourself.  This is only about control and disarmament.  Armed citizenry is the biggest threat to the elite, so it must be eliminated.   

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Re: Swiss getting disarmed at last?

Don't know if anyone saw this. And it does quote Alex Jones, who I don't necessarily endorse, but apparently gun owners have been pretty riled up at what some are saying is the precursor to gun confiscations and martial law...certainly a possibility worth pondering, to say the least, especially when you consider the string of enabling acts and martial law exercises going on around the country:

http://www.desmoinesregister.com/article/20090224/NEWS10/902240390/0/NEWS

 

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Re: Swiss getting disarmed at last?

Disturbing trend. Watching the Katrina videos ( national guard and police taking weapons) really shows one how our own people can easily be turned against the general population. Basically boils down to diffusion of responsibility- once the order comes down the chain of command the on the ground soldier carries out the mission with little or no questions. And the military is very effective at this due to the  recent years of urban combat.

If one looks at past studies, such as the Milgram experiments, which demonstrated a frightening level of obedience to authority.It is not a stretch of  the imagination to see martial law established quite easily, with little or no initial resistance.

  You can only speculate how many individual liberties will be "sacrificed for the good of society"

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Re: Swiss getting disarmed at last?
strabes wrote:

I'm trying to get military and law enforcement people to wakeup to this submissive mentality they have.  My old army buddies are good people, but they're too willing to mindlessly do whatever they're told, whether it feels right in their gut or not. They're trained to suppress their gut. "Bullets are flying son, get moving, shoot those bastards, no time to sit around and figure out your feelings!!"  That's a useful mentality in war, though still dangerous.  It's a horrific mentality in law enforcement.  Even national guard leaders are voicing this type of crap "if the feds tell us we need to do this, then we'll do it, we'll be a part of a combined team to do the right thing."  Uhuh.  In other words, they're willing to be pawns of the federal government regardless of how unconstitutional it is.   

But this is exactly the type of mentality that is instilled in people through military training. And threre is no other way to do it, I guess, because military can't be reflective with every private reflecting on the wider implications of the orders he receives and then deciding whether to go along with them or not. That is why I was opposed to exposing most of the population to this type of training through conscription. By the way - much of our society is organized around following authority, just like the educational system starting at school and going all the way up to the university.  Also, deterioration of moral values in Western societies over the last century has led to the point that people in the military and law enforcement in many cases don't have a foundation of moral values they could see their orders on. Without unquestionable and shared sense of right and wrong there only right that remanins is to follow orders.

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Re: Swiss getting disarmed at last?

Every time I meet one I've been asking US police and military members the following:

If you were ordered to go house to house and disarm people who were legally entitled to have weapons, would you?

Approximately 70% say they would enforce their orders.This is a small sample group probably about a 100 +/- but I was surprised by how many would work against the people. Interestingly enough the 30% that would refuse were mostly older 45+

 

 

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Re: Swiss getting disarmed at last?

The whole oath to the Constitution business is really nonsense, it's like signing a contract for something before reading it. What they need to do is  have training on what's in the Constitution and what it means before someone gives their oath to it. This way you could refuse to follow an order if it violates the Constitution and not be punished for it, this would take the teeth out of our military in the US and prevent it from being used against the citizens.

Greg

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Re: Swiss getting disarmed at last?

Agreed, our society as a whole seems to have lost the ability and conviction to intelligently dissent. We seem to live in a world where we have absolved ourselves of most of our most human qualities: intellect and free will. Now, people have become dependent on government entitlements and bailouts as if they truly were not capable of taking care of themselves. We place so much hope in our political leaders to fix our problems for us instead of looking how we can solve the problems ourselves and even directly help our neighbors do the same.

I guess when you look at the long run trend, the people of this country have given up some of their most personal liberties and responsibilities. In this environment and based on some evidence, there doesn't seem to be reason to believe that those in the military will generally stand strongly in the favor of the principles. Keep in mind it is the government that is giving them their paycheck to buy food...food which is produced by the very people that they might be told to disarm some day.

I don't mean this in any way as a judgment against those on this site that serve in our armed forces, but I can only speak of some of the trends I've seen in my own life. Although I've seen a good few highly qualified and very intelligent college friends enter the military, the majority of military entrants that I have personally known were kids from high school that seemed to lack a sense of direction and/or achievement in their lives. They were not at the top of their class and many had had intermittent problems with drugs and alcohol. In short, the majority of the people that I have personally known that have entered the military do not (in my opinion) seem like the types that would have the understanding and courage to stand by Constitutional principles when being ordered by a superior.

It's true that many higher ranking military officers have shown some dissent and courage in broaching unpopular issues, but from what I've seen, a great number of our armed service members lack a true understanding of liberty and freedom and perhaps even lack the moral courage to stand by these principles. Where dissent is crushed, groupthink rules supreme. And when groupthink rules supreme, accidents like the Challenger disaster occasionally occur...ouch.

I'm anticipating some flak from this, and I don't mean it in the least as a broad condemnation, I'm only reporting what I've seen in my life and it doesn't give me much cause for hope.

Mike

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Re: Swiss getting disarmed at last?

Greg,

you said:

Quote:

The whole oath to the Constitution business is really nonsense, it's like signing a contract for something before reading it. What they need to do is  have training on what's in the Constitution and what it means before someone gives their oath to it. This way you could refuse to follow an order if it violates the Constitution and not be punished for it, this would take the teeth out of our military in the US and prevent it from being used against the citizens.

But time for the constitution would mean less time for Military Equal Opportunity, Sexual Assault Awareness, Suicide Awareness and Prevention, the 101 Critical Days of Summer briefings, and endless commander's calls regarding things that are basically tantamount to "TPS reports".

It's far more important to the military to force the "world view" onto the troops than to reinforce their national heritage, and teach them civic virtue.

Truly sad.

Aaron

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Re: Swiss getting disarmed at last?

exactly, Aaron.

The paradox in all of this is that in my experience, at least, true education is not something that can really be forced upon a person. The only way to truly educate yourself about what matters is to have the curiosity to find the truth yourself. Others can help and inspire, but at the end of the day, eduction is a personal responsibility. Smaller scale education helps, but an unwilling pupil can learn just as little in a one room school house as they can in a 5,000 student high school.

I'm not sure that we can effectively institutionalize topics such as Military Equal Opportunity, Sexual Assault Awareness, Suicide Awareness and Prevention, the 101 Critical Days of Summer. I'm not in the military, but as Aaron hinted, these sound like *pure* waste to me.

Mike

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Re: Swiss getting disarmed at last?

Mike,

You said, highlights are mine:

Quote:

I'm not sure that we can effectively institutionalize topics such as Military Equal Opportunity, Sexual Assault Awareness, Suicide Awareness and Prevention, the 101 Critical Days of Summer. I'm not in the military, but as Aaron hinted, these sound like *pure* waste to me.

You are absolutely, 100% correct.
Those who are likely to be insulting towards someone else for no significant reason are only irritated by lectures telling them to behave.

True respect comes from mutual respect. I don't care who you do or don't like on your off time.
I don't care if you're racist (I've worked with two members of the Black Panther party) and I don't care if you want to kill yourself. Those things are not my business, and so long as we can "work" together, I'm not going to lecture people for using language or anything else.

The oversensitization of our culture has made individualists bullies, and everyone else a gaggle of kicking crybabies.
It's really disgusting, and all the while, the avenues used to reinforce this poor behavior take precious time away from IMPORTANT issues... like the bill of rights...

Cheers Mike! Well said as usual.

Aaron

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Re: Swiss getting disarmed at last?

Aaron is sadly correct; there is so much largely irrelevant BS that the average soldier has to wade through in the course of his/her career that many of the good ones get discouraged and get out early, and many that are left just try to keep their head down so it doesn't get chopped off in the politics of the system.  Most of the retirees I work with say that things weren't quite this bad when they were active duty, and while they say they're proud of their service most are glad they don't have to deal with that nonsense. 

Now that being said, it does sometimes surprise me how many quality officers and enlisted I come across despite all those obstacles. There are a lot of douchebags as well (some of them seem to make a career out of it), but I still see enough good people serving in the military that I hold out some hope  :^)

- Nickbert

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