Strange Goings On

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Strange Goings On

Hi, All;

You might be interested to know:  I woke up in the wee hours of the morning, last night, to hear a sound that I've never heard before.  It was like jet engines . . . a lot of them, finally receding to the west-northwest, . . . I knew something was up . . . I've lived in the same house for 55 years (with only a few years elsewhere), and I've been around aircraft all of my life, and I've never heard anything like this.  It was more than just a flyover, and it was more than just a couple of F-15's . . . It was a louder, more complex sound than I've ever associated with either commercial or military jets, and lasted several minutes, not the usual quick fly-by of a pair of fighters.  There were no sonic booms.  The complexity, volume, and distortion of the sound were unlike anything I am familiar with.  I had time to wake up, lay and listen for a minute, realize that something was going on, get up, go up to the roof, and still had time to listen to it for a couple of minutes.  Interestingly, it was only one day away from the new moon, the moon had set at 1925 hours (several hours prior), very dark, and perfectly clear except that there was humid haziness . . .

The news today indicated "that sound you heard early this morning" was fighter jets (F-16's and F-18's) doing a NORAD exercise over Chicago, and supposedly proceeding to Washington, D.C., after that, for more exercises, . . . But I live 55 miles northwest of Chicago, and the sound I heard disappeared to the WNW.  The amazing thing was how many of them there were, or how powerful "it" was  . . . and the incredibly loud volume, despite the fact that there was enough distortion in the sound to infer that the source was at significant altitude (Not at air-show-low-altitude, but not at 25,000+ feet, either . . . I infer the altitude from the degree of distortion in the sound), or quite far away . . . And the length of time that the engines were clearly audible was not consistent with a fighter flyover.  Of course, I can't be sure of the numbers or altitude, but I know what a couple of F15's at altitude sound like, and this was a much bigger, more complex sound than that . . . It sounded more like jet engine(s) than anything else, but more of a "roar" than a "scream" . . . unlike anything I'd ever heard.  This was an entirely new sort of "exercise" for this area.  Though the sound was very loud, it persisted for a long time . . . not advancing and receding quickly, as a fleet of fighters going overhead would . . . Very strange . . .

Something's up . . .

Did anybody else witness this?

-- C1oudfire

 

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Re: Strange Goings On

Not good IMO.  I'm very familiar with the sounds that you're indicating as we listened to that many many times during the "no fly" days after 9/11.  If it's a long amount of time and not much of a slackening in loudness it probably indicated several wings of jets behind one another.  It could also indicate the different types flying at the same time.  If it's some F16's and B1's you get a roar without the sonic boom.  Also, the sound of the F22 is quite a bit different than the F15 or 16 and it doesn't scream like the 16's.  It almost has and undulating sound.  One thing I find strange in the "official" story is that they indicate F18's.  The F18 is primarily a Naval Jet (marines as well) so why they would be over the middle of the country is strange.  In all of my travels through the West Coast, Nevada Desert, Arizona Desert and Colorado I hardly EVER saw an F18.  Even here in the DC area we don't see F18's very often.  San Diego/Miramar we would see them but not inland. 

Also, if they were heading HERE.....I didn't hear them and I'm up at 3am every day.  They would have had to fly directly over my house coming from the Chicago area. 

Will be interested to hear if anyone in the Wisconsin area may have heard something as that's where it sounds like they were heading.

 

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Re: Strange Goings On

 

The NORAD announcement, before the fact:

http://www.norad.mil/News/2009/072009.html

Some speculation:

dihttp://portland.indymedia.org/en/2009/07/392874.shtmlsc=149495;article=125634;title=APFN

Interesting concommitant change in the name of Chicago's Sears Tower, the tallest building in the United States (And some interesting symmetry in the new name):

http://www.chicagotribune.com/business/chi-talk-willis-towerjul16,0,4222230.story

Oddly, many years after the exodus of the Sears occupants, the naming rights were given to a London based insurance broker, in exchange for a lease on three floors . . . Huh?

Strange goings on . . . 

 

 

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Re: Strange Goings On
LogansRun wrote:

Not good IMO.  I'm very familiar with the sounds that you're indicating as we listened to that many many times during the "no fly" days after 9/11.  If it's a long amount of time and not much of a slackening in loudness it probably indicated several wings of jets behind one another.  It could also indicate the different types flying at the same time.  If it's some F16's and B1's you get a roar without the sonic boom.  Also, the sound of the F22 is quite a bit different than the F15 or 16 and it doesn't scream like the 16's.  It almost has and undulating sound.  One thing I find strange in the "official" story is that they indicate F18's.  The F18 is primarily a Naval Jet (marines as well) so why they would be over the middle of the country is strange.  In all of my travels through the West Coast, Nevada Desert, Arizona Desert and Colorado I hardly EVER saw an F18.  Even here in the DC area we don't see F18's very often.  San Diego/Miramar we would see them but not inland. 

Also, if they were heading HERE.....I didn't hear them and I'm up at 3am every day.  They would have had to fly directly over my house coming from the Chicago area. 

Will be interested to hear if anyone in the Wisconsin area may have heard something as that's where it sounds like they were heading.

Hi, Logan's Run;
 

The radio report of an F-16/F-18 exercise was relayed to me by my husband . . .  It's possible that we got that wrong . . . Sometimes my husband's memory for quickly related details is less than perfect.  See the NORAD announcement that I just posted . . . Several agencies were reportedly involved. 

Thanks for the details about the sounds produced by the various aircraft.  There was a variability. . . I wouldn't call it exactly an undulation, but, initially, it was so loud, and though it had the quality of a jet engine, it was so low-pitched . . . that, in my immediate, just-awake fogginess, it took me a few seconds to discern that it wasn't thunder . . . It was not that low-pitched, but not as high as one normally associates with jet engines.  And it was really, really loud for something that clearly wasn't directly overhead, judging by the amount of distortion.  It was the not-truly-steady nature of the sound that made me initially think it was thunder.  I suppose I could have been hearing a combination of  B-1(s), B-22(s), helicopters, and fighters.  Although it was a "wall" of sound, it was somwhat variable, and quite complex and layered in nature . .  As though there was more than one thing going on  . . . By the time I got to the roof, the sound was still very easily audible, but seemed to be coming from low  . . . below the horizon . . . to the WNW.

 

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Re: Strange Goings On
LogansRun wrote:

Not good IMO.  I'm very familiar with the sounds that you're indicating as we listened to that many many times during the "no fly" days after 9/11.  If it's a long amount of time and not much of a slackening in loudness it probably indicated several wings of jets behind one another.  It could also indicate the different types flying at the same time.  If it's some F16's and B1's you get a roar without the sonic boom.  Also, the sound of the F22 is quite a bit different than the F15 or 16 and it doesn't scream like the 16's.  It almost has and undulating sound.  One thing I find strange in the "official" story is that they indicate F18's.  The F18 is primarily a Naval Jet (marines as well) so why they would be over the middle of the country is strange.  In all of my travels through the West Coast, Nevada Desert, Arizona Desert and Colorado I hardly EVER saw an F18.  Even here in the DC area we don't see F18's very often.  San Diego/Miramar we would see them but not inland. 

Also, if they were heading HERE.....I didn't hear them and I'm up at 3am every day.  They would have had to fly directly over my house coming from the Chicago area. 

Will be interested to hear if anyone in the Wisconsin area may have heard something as that's where it sounds like they were heading.

Logan -

A squadron of Hornets left NAS Oceana in SE Virginia in the past couple of days for cross-country qualification for the RAG (Replacement Air Group) pilots.  Chicago is on the great circle route into Nellis AFB from Oceana so it's possible you got buzzed by some F/A -18s.  All it takes is a few RPM mismatch to get some interesting harmonic combinations from two or more planes.  They also go into Offutt AFB in Omaha when hopping across the country, which is also on the great circle flight path that might catch Chicago.

And with the shift to Afghanistan, the Navy will probably haver more of their pilots training in the mountains - so a flight into Nellis or Groom is very plausible.

We live about 6 miles from NAS Oceana and hardly a day goes by where we don't get a flyover or some form of personal air show.

Pure speculation on my part here, but the USS THEODORE ROOSEVELT fairly recently shifted homeports from Norfolk, VA to the west coast  - the Hornet squadrons are still based at Oceana so they might have been flying cross country to catch up with the TR.

Likely not F-22 Raptors - you only get the warbling when they are thrust vectoring and they don't do that in level flight.

 

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Re: Strange Goings On
LogansRun wrote:

If it's a long amount of time and not much of a slackening in loudness it probably indicated several wings of jets behind one another.  It could also indicate the different types flying at the same time.  If it's some F16's and B1's you get a roar without the sonic boom.  

Logan -

Probably just a few jets on a radius of turn intercept approach, that would explain the duration.  Layering is most likely the combination of up and down doppler engine noise since in an ROT intercept geometry you will have planes going away from you and coming at you so you will have a corresponding downshift and upshift in frequency of the engine noise you do hear.

The NORAD EXSUM looks like the real explanation -

Unless it was the new amphibious F-52X Bugaboo flying out to land on the new transwarp drive submersible carriers (CVTDSS) being tested in Lake Superior.  But I digress.........

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Re: Strange Goings On
Dogs_In_A_Pile wrote:
LogansRun wrote:

Not good IMO.  I'm very familiar with the sounds that you're indicating as we listened to that many many times during the "no fly" days after 9/11.  If it's a long amount of time and not much of a slackening in loudness it probably indicated several wings of jets behind one another.  It could also indicate the different types flying at the same time.  If it's some F16's and B1's you get a roar without the sonic boom.  Also, the sound of the F22 is quite a bit different than the F15 or 16 and it doesn't scream like the 16's.  It almost has and undulating sound.  One thing I find strange in the "official" story is that they indicate F18's.  The F18 is primarily a Naval Jet (marines as well) so why they would be over the middle of the country is strange.  In all of my travels through the West Coast, Nevada Desert, Arizona Desert and Colorado I hardly EVER saw an F18.  Even here in the DC area we don't see F18's very often.  San Diego/Miramar we would see them but not inland. 

Also, if they were heading HERE.....I didn't hear them and I'm up at 3am every day.  They would have had to fly directly over my house coming from the Chicago area. 

Will be interested to hear if anyone in the Wisconsin area may have heard something as that's where it sounds like they were heading.

Logan -

A squadron of Hornets left NAS Oceana in SE Virginia in the past couple of days for cross-country qualification for the RAG (Replacement Air Group) pilots.  Chicago is on the great circle route into Nellis AFB from Oceana so it's possible you got buzzed by some F/A -18s.  All it takes is a few RPM mismatch to get some interesting harmonic combinations from two or more planes.  They also go into Offutt AFB in Omaha when hopping across the country, which is also on the great circle flight path that might catch Chicago.

And with the shift to Afghanistan, the Navy will probably haver more of their pilots training in the mountains - so a flight into Nellis or Groom is very plausible.

We live about 6 miles from NAS Oceana and hardly a day goes by where we don't get a flyover or some form of personal air show.

Pure speculation on my part here, but the USS THEODORE ROOSEVELT fairly recently shifted homeports from Norfolk, VA to the west coast  - the Hornet squadrons are still based at Oceana so they might have been flying cross country to catch up with the TR.

Likely not F-22 Raptors - you only get the warbling when they are thrust vectoring and they don't do that in level flight.

Hi, DIAP;

See the NORAD announcement in my recent post . . . There was an "exercise" involving several agencies . . . and the point is that though NORAD periodically does these exercises in our area . . . what I heard was not "a little" different from other aircraft phenomena that I'd seen/heard (and that's more than the average civilian), it was in an entirely different class . . . So entirely unlike my past experience (and fighters are pretty much a yawn for me, at this point) that I bolted out of bed within seconds of arousing from a deep sleep, to go to the roof . . . to see what the Hell was going on . . . It was that different . . . It was not at all like being buzzed by a couple, or even a squadron of fighters . . . This was entirely different . . .  Not just a little louder, or higher or lower pitched, or a little less uniform, or a more complex layering of sounds, but all of the above . . . Completely in a class of its own . . . It was a "wall" of sound, lasting far longer than would be expected in the event of a flyover.

I have to suspect that this was an exercise of unprecendented proportions (in our area) and/or design, or using novel aircraft or combinations of aircraft . . . Because of Chicago, and because of the "high value" of the Sears Tower as a target, we do  have regular NORAD exercises, and have the occasional intercept in airspace over the region  . . . Those are sounds with which I am quite familiar, and they are not particularly unusual in our area . . .

 

 

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Re: Strange Goings On
LogansRun wrote:

Not good IMO.  I'm very familiar with the sounds that you're indicating as we listened to that many many times during the "no fly" days after 9/11.  If it's a long amount of time and not much of a slackening in loudness it probably indicated several wings of jets behind one another.  It could also indicate the different types flying at the same time.  If it's some F16's and B1's you get a roar without the sonic boom.  Also, the sound of the F22 is quite a bit different than the F15 or 16 and it doesn't scream like the 16's.  It almost has and undulating sound.  One thing I find strange in the "official" story is that they indicate F18's.  The F18 is primarily a Naval Jet (marines as well) so why they would be over the middle of the country is strange.  In all of my travels through the West Coast, Nevada Desert, Arizona Desert and Colorado I hardly EVER saw an F18.  Even here in the DC area we don't see F18's very often.  San Diego/Miramar we would see them but not inland. 

Also, if they were heading HERE.....I didn't hear them and I'm up at 3am every day.  They would have had to fly directly over my house coming from the Chicago area. 

Will be interested to hear if anyone in the Wisconsin area may have heard something as that's where it sounds like they were heading.

 

Hi, again, Logan's Run;

On rereading your post, I would say that what I heard was consistent with "several wings of jets [and bombers] behind one another" and with a combination of fighters/bombers.  But it would have been quite a lot of aircraft, as the sound was an absolute "wall" for about 3 minutes (after I woke up . . . so it probably rose to a crescendo, before that), and lasted for another 3 minutes before it was difficult to discern.  That's a lot of aircraft flying over . . . 

And, I'm just wondering, what purpose would bombers have in a NORAD exercise?

(North American Aerospace Defense Command)

 

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Re: Strange Goings On
Dogs_In_A_Pile wrote:

Unless it was the new amphibious F-52X Bugaboo flying out to land on the new transwarp drive submersible carriers (CVTDSS) being tested in Lake Superior.  But I digress.........

DIAP;

Please do not bring your tendency to see conspiracy theorists behind every rock into this conversation.  This is a discussion of direct observations, and possible explanations for those observations.  Thanks, in advance.

Your responses indicate that you either have not carefully read my observations or question my observations themselves.  Because of that, they add little to my ability to interpret what I heard.  Please don't clutter up this thread with superfluous information.  Thanks, in advance.

 

Everybody:

While links to alternative explanations for the observed phenomena are fine, let's keep this discussion to direct observations, published news reports, and discussion of confirmable information related to those observations.    This is important in adhering to Dr. Martenson's standard of avoiding a focus on unverifiable information.  Thanks, in advance.

Because of the high profile (pun intended) of the Sears Tower, and the relationship of that fact to NORAD activities, recent news regarding the Sears Tower is germane to this situation.  Those of us in the Chicago area understand that there is a great deal of concern about a potential air attack on the tower . . . Meigs Field, a nearby island-airport was suddenly, and without announcement, closed down (by bulldosing the runways at night), in the wake of 9/11, because of concern about an potential attack on the Sears Tower.  A link that mentions a conspiracy theory regarding the Sears Tower has been posted, as context, but is not the focus of this discussion.

 

 

 

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Re: Strange Goings On
C1oudfire wrote:

Meigs Field, a nearby island-airport was suddenly, and without announcement, closed down (by bulldosing the runways at night), in the wake of 9/11, because of concern about an potential attack on the Sears Tower.

My understanding was Mayor Daley wanted to build a park on Meigs as far back as 1994, and in 2001 the city, state, and airport officials agreed to keep the airport open for another 25 years.  In 2003, Daley had private crews illegally destroy the runway in the middle of the night.

The point about it being a "security risk" was a convenient excuse after the fact.  My guess is Daley's office had years ago promised the construction contract to friends of the mayor (not a huge stretch given the previous controversies involving the hired truck program and patronage), and they were going to ensure the deal was completed no matter what.

As they say, "much easier to ask for forgiveness than it is to get permission."

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Doppler Shift, Not So Strange............

4-6 planes, spaced at 5 miles in high sub-sonic flight, in a radius of turn intercept geometry,

Subject to the following...............

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doppler_effect

= Explanation

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Re: Strange Goings On

DIAP,

I'm a military brat (Vandenberg and Beale) so I've seen quite a bit through the years (used to watch the Black Bird take off from both).  Not an expert by any means, but by living in and around air bases from the age of 0 to 18 and then living in Las Vegas, San Diego, Tuscon, Palmdale, Seattle areas since, I've seen some military aircraft. 

As for the F18's, yes they come inland just as any of our other planes would but the frequency in comparison is quite a bit less.  I've seen them flying in and out of most air bases at one time or another but again, they aren't as numerous inland as say the F16.  My point was that the chances of it being something OTHER than the F18 was higher. 

Anyway, C1oudfire says that the sounds were quite a bit different than what she'd heard before.  A grouping of different fighters more than likely wouldn't create a sound that is so much different than her previous experiences IMO.  When it comes to our military, what you get on the official wavelengths usually isn't what is actually happening.

Appreciate your banter as always though. 

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Re: Strange Goings On

Logan -

You probably watched a lot of Minuteman launches out of V Burg into Eniwetok or Kwajelin I'm guessing?  Was ABNCP or LOOKING GLASS flying out of Beale when you were there? - that is/was one ginormous pimped out 747!!

I can't tell you how many times I have heard a "new" sound and looked up expecting to see a new aircraft on approach into one of the four runways at Oceana.  99% of the time I saw two (or more) Hornets in some type of maneuvering, with one plane at a different speed than the other, either a stacked carrier approach pattern (the plane at higher altitude almost always going faster), or a radius of turn as the planes line up for a simulated landing approach - many times there is a flight instructor/observer in one of the planes watching the newbie pilots, or some other type of multiple plane flight dynamic. 

Anyway, I can only remember one time where there was actually a "new" plane - it was an F-86 Sabre Jet going to the NAS Oceana Air Show a few years ago.  Let me tell you how quick heads snap up when we hear a P-51 Mustang or P-38 Thunderbolt coming to one of the air shows though.

The likely simple explanation here is a combination of 4-6 planes, spaced, with a ROT intercept geometry that just happened to center on or near Chi town.  The duration of the sound is explained by the spacing, the variability explained by doppler.  A group of any jet aircraft in ROT makes some pretty interesting sounds.  The lead aircraft is turning at a slower speed than the trailing planes and the trailing planes are both turning to intercept and doing so at balls to the wall speeds.  As each plane nears to flight path intercept, they throttle back and generate more delta v to throw into the doppler equation - to what is already a dynamic for the receiver.  Depending on the number of planes and the turn angle, an ROT closure can take several minutes.

And I made up the Bugaboo thing - the carriers were really in Lake Michigan.

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Re: Strange Goings On

Yes, seen many different planes over the years as well as test missile launches.  It was an interesting time.  I remember the F86 coming into the "brain" in Colorado Springs when I was a child.  It was quite an aircraft and had quite the roar.

I've seen the maneuver many times and agree, the sounds can be deceptive.  And the doppler effect is different every time you hear it IMO.  In fact, the maneuver that you're describing usually will have a "wave/undulating" sound over an extended period of time...especially if there are different types of aircraft involved. 

Anyway, I think we've beat a dead horse here.  I hope it was just as described by the NORAD site.  I will always have my doubts when it comes to this gov't though.

Cheers!

 

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Re: Doppler Shift, Not So Strange............
Dogs_In_A_Pile wrote:

4-6 planes, spaced at 5 miles in high sub-sonic flight, in a radius of turn intercept geometry,

Subject to the following...............

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doppler_effect

= Explanation

Hi, DIAP;

I'd need a bit more documentation to accept this as an explanation, much less the explanation.  I'm familiar with the doppler effect, but you mention specific numbers of planes, altitude, and flight patterns . . . Can you document the specifics of your explanation as related to the specific phenomena that I observed?

I've been in similar circumstances to those you describe, and never heard anything like this . . . This was completely unprecedented, in my experience.  I'd need a lot more info than one ex-military consultant's unofficial say-so to accept this as the explanation.  Not that the idea doesn't have merit, it's just, "show me the data".  A loose association of undocumented, hypothetical flight specifics with a physics theory does not make proof.

DIAP wrote:

The lead aircraft is turning at a slower speed than the trailing planes and the trailing planes are both turning to intercept and doing so at balls to the wall speeds. 

Also, you are well aware that I am a woman, so I would ask that you refrain from using colorful metaphors involving male genitalia in your posts on my thread . . . Thank you, in advance.

C1oudfire 

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Re: Strange Goings On
Ron Shimshock wrote:
C1oudfire wrote:

Meigs Field, a nearby island-airport was suddenly, and without announcement, closed down (by bulldosing the runways at night), in the wake of 9/11, because of concern about an potential attack on the Sears Tower.

My understanding was Mayor Daley wanted to build a park on Meigs as far back as 1994, and in 2001 the city, state, and airport officials agreed to keep the airport open for another 25 years.  In 2003, Daley had private crews illegally destroy the runway in the middle of the night.

The point about it being a "security risk" was a convenient excuse after the fact.  My guess is Daley's office had years ago promised the construction contract to friends of the mayor (not a huge stretch given the previous controversies involving the hired truck program and patronage), and they were going to ensure the deal was completed no matter what.

As they say, "much easier to ask for forgiveness than it is to get permission."

Hi, Ron;

Thanks for the context on the Daly/Meigs Field thing . . . Certainly, there has been controversy over Daly's motives (when isn't there?), but the point is that, even if he had ulterior motives, public concern about the Sears Tower as a target was great enough (and still is) that Mayor Daly got away with his preemptive action, regardless of his real motives.  Frankly, more than a few aviators in my area are still miffed about Daly's action . . .

 

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Re: Strange Goings On

 

Hi, All;

I think that the doppler effect theory has some merit . . . and certainly the location of the observer would have a dramatic effect on the perceived sound . . . It would really help if others in the area could check in, by PM, if they prefer, and state what you observed last night . . . It would be interesting to compare and "map" the nature of the sounds that were perceived from nearby locations.

Thanks, in advance,

C1oudfire

 

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Re: Strange Goings On

 

Well! . . . Having had a nice tall glass of milk, and having stretched out on the sofa with my bankie, and having had a nice nappy, uninterupted by rude walls of inpenetrable noise . . . I'm feeling much better, thank you very much . . .

And so, having had the time, and in a much more rested state for considering the information offered herein, I must say that I am satisfactorily assured that there are several perfectly scientific explanations for the very strange phenomena that I witnessed last night that do not necessarily involve black helicopters, undisclosed flying machines, or male genitals adhering to vertical surfaces . . .

Therefore, thus satisfied, and feeling much better rested, I suggest that, barring some radical new information, we let this thread die a much quieter death than the somnolent ambiance I was afforded last night.

Oh, and BTW, DIAP . . . When you see the Commander in Chief at your next BBQ, would you be so kind as to ask him to pivot his toys around some landmark other than my bedroom . . . ?

Thanks, in advance . . .

-- C1oudfire

 

 

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Re: Strange Goings On

Happy to let it die with a remembrance of Madison's warnings because, whether NORAD's release is true or not, it is a testament to the conversion of our republic of brave citizens into an empire of fearful subjects looking for narcissistic males to be brave for them by mobilizing killing machines to wipe out enemies and "protect us," which as Madison says only leads to the ability for those narcissists to impose tyranny on said subjects:

 

A standing military force, with an overgrown Executive will not long be safe companions to liberty. The means of defence agst. foreign danger, have been always the instruments of tyranny at home. Among the Romans it was a standing maxim to excite a war, whenever a revolt was apprehended. Throughout all Europe, the armies kept up under the pretext of defending, have enslaved the people.

 

 

Of all the enemies to public liberty war is, perhaps, the most to be dreaded, because it comprises and develops the germ of every other. War is the parent of armies; from these proceed debts and taxes; and armies, and debts, and taxes are the known instruments for bringing the many under the domination of the few. In war, too, the discretionary power of the Executive is extended; its influence in dealing out offices, honors, and emoluments is multiplied; and all the means of seducing the minds, are added to those of subduing the force, of the people. The same malignant aspect in republicanism may be traced in the inequality of fortunes, and the opportunities of fraud, growing out of a state of war, and in the degeneracy of manners and of morals engendered by both. No nation could preserve its freedom in the midst of continual warfare.

  • "Political Observations" (1795-04-20); also in Letters and Other Writings of James Madison (1865), Vol. IV, p. 491

 

Perhaps it is a universal truth that the loss of liberty at home is to be charged against provisions against danger, real or pretended from abroad.

  • Letter to Thomas Jefferson (1798-05-13); published in Letters and Other Writings of James Madison (1865), Vol. II, p. 141

 

to keep within the requisite limits a standing military force, always remembering that an armed and trained militia is the firmest bulwark of republics — that without standing armies their liberty can never be in danger, nor with large ones safe

- First Inaugural Address (1809-03-04)

 

 

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Cloudfire
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Posts: 1813
Re: Strange Goings On
strabes wrote:

Happy to let it die with a remembrance of Madison's warnings because, whether NORAD's release is true or not, it is a testament to the conversion of our republic of brave citizens into an empire of fearful subjects looking for narcissistic males to be brave for them by mobilizing killing machines to wipe out enemies and "protect us," which as Madison says only leads to the ability for those narcissists to impose tyranny on said subjects:

 

A standing military force, with an overgrown Executive will not long be safe companions to liberty. The means of defence agst. foreign danger, have been always the instruments of tyranny at home. Among the Romans it was a standing maxim to excite a war, whenever a revolt was apprehended. Throughout all Europe, the armies kept up under the pretext of defending, have enslaved the people.

 

 

Of all the enemies to public liberty war is, perhaps, the most to be dreaded, because it comprises and develops the germ of every other. War is the parent of armies; from these proceed debts and taxes; and armies, and debts, and taxes are the known instruments for bringing the many under the domination of the few. In war, too, the discretionary power of the Executive is extended; its influence in dealing out offices, honors, and emoluments is multiplied; and all the means of seducing the minds, are added to those of subduing the force, of the people. The same malignant aspect in republicanism may be traced in the inequality of fortunes, and the opportunities of fraud, growing out of a state of war, and in the degeneracy of manners and of morals engendered by both. No nation could preserve its freedom in the midst of continual warfare.

  • "Political Observations" (1795-04-20); also in Letters and Other Writings of James Madison (1865), Vol. IV, p. 491

 

Perhaps it is a universal truth that the loss of liberty at home is to be charged against provisions against danger, real or pretended from abroad.

  • Letter to Thomas Jefferson (1798-05-13); published in Letters and Other Writings of James Madison (1865), Vol. II, p. 141

 

to keep within the requisite limits a standing military force, always remembering that an armed and trained militia is the firmest bulwark of republics — that without standing armies their liberty can never be in danger, nor with large ones safe

- First Inaugural Address (1809-03-04)

A fitting close, Strabes . . . Regardless of the specific physics of the matter, it was quite a show of military power  . . .  and an effective reminder that our military is ever present . . . . . . ever vigilant . . . and ready to protect us from a good night's sleep . . . .

 

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Cloudfire
Status: Diamond Member (Offline)
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Posts: 1813
Re: Strange Goings On
C1oudfire wrote:
strabes wrote:

Happy to let it die with a remembrance of Madison's warnings because, whether NORAD's release is true or not, it is a testament to the conversion of our republic of brave citizens into an empire of fearful subjects looking for narcissistic males to be brave for them by mobilizing killing machines to wipe out enemies and "protect us," which as Madison says only leads to the ability for those narcissists to impose tyranny on said subjects:

 

A standing military force, with an overgrown Executive will not long be safe companions to liberty. The means of defence agst. foreign danger, have been always the instruments of tyranny at home. Among the Romans it was a standing maxim to excite a war, whenever a revolt was apprehended. Throughout all Europe, the armies kept up under the pretext of defending, have enslaved the people.

 

 

Of all the enemies to public liberty war is, perhaps, the most to be dreaded, because it comprises and develops the germ of every other. War is the parent of armies; from these proceed debts and taxes; and armies, and debts, and taxes are the known instruments for bringing the many under the domination of the few. In war, too, the discretionary power of the Executive is extended; its influence in dealing out offices, honors, and emoluments is multiplied; and all the means of seducing the minds, are added to those of subduing the force, of the people. The same malignant aspect in republicanism may be traced in the inequality of fortunes, and the opportunities of fraud, growing out of a state of war, and in the degeneracy of manners and of morals engendered by both. No nation could preserve its freedom in the midst of continual warfare.

  • "Political Observations" (1795-04-20); also in Letters and Other Writings of James Madison (1865), Vol. IV, p. 491

 

Perhaps it is a universal truth that the loss of liberty at home is to be charged against provisions against danger, real or pretended from abroad.

  • Letter to Thomas Jefferson (1798-05-13); published in Letters and Other Writings of James Madison (1865), Vol. II, p. 141

 

to keep within the requisite limits a standing military force, always remembering that an armed and trained militia is the firmest bulwark of republics — that without standing armies their liberty can never be in danger, nor with large ones safe

- First Inaugural Address (1809-03-04)

A fitting close, Strabes . . . Regardless of the specific physics of the matter, it was quite a show of military power  . . .  and an effective reminder that our military is ever present . . . . . . ever vigilant . . . and ready to protect us from a good night's sleep . . . .

 . . . Still, much as I enjoy sitting on the 96th floor, wine glass in hand, feet up on the radiator at the base of the exterior wall of glass, I don't think I'll be visiting the Sears Tower (Go to the dickens, Willis!) anytime soon . . .

Oh, and, thanks to both DIAP and Logan's Run for their expertise . . . Truly, you both provided perspective that I hadn't considered.  Next time I hear a wall of sound bearing down on my bedroom, I'll just pour myself a glass of milk, pull the covers over my head, and go to sleep with visions of the doppler effect and B-1's dancing in my head . . .

 

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Dogs_In_A_Pile
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Re: Strange Goings On

Nor those fearful subjects content to let others do the work.

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Cloudfire
Status: Diamond Member (Offline)
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Posts: 1813
Re: Strange Goings On
Dogs_In_A_Pile wrote:

Nor those fearful subjects content to let others do the work.

Please, by all means, stand down  . . .

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strabes
Status: Diamond Member (Offline)
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Posts: 1032
Re: Strange Goings On

Dogs, I think you're reminding us to remember the subjects' role in choosing this situation.  I completely agree.  I wish I could find a way to get the subjects to become free, empowered, autonomous, responsible citizens again, and I add a quote from another founder (or a paraphrase of it...there are many versions of this one and I can't tell which is the true original):

"They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little safety deserve neither liberty nor safety and will lose both."

- Benjamin Franklin
 
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cannotaffordit
Status: Gold Member (Offline)
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Posts: 273
Re: Strange Goings On

 It fascinates, and enrages me, that all wars are started by egomaniacs who then get the sheeple to do their fighting for them.  

Wonder how long it will be before those of us who are not among the top 1/10th of 1% will wake up to this truth, whether the war mongers are political, religious or out-of-control capitalists, and just say "NO?"

I must try to remember that, in the bigger scheme of things, humanity is still in its early teen years (or maybe younger)  as far as it's maturity.  So, until we grow up, I guess we cannot expect much rational, ethical, moral, sensible compassionate behavior from the majority of us.   Evidently, just not enough of us see the value in it yet.  Maybe, hopefully, some future generation will fully awaken to what it takes to preserve our earthly home, and live together peacefully and productively.

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Cloudfire
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Joined: Sep 29 2008
Posts: 1813
Trying to Close this Thread
Ben A wrote:

 It fascinates, and enrages me, that all wars are started by egomaniacs who then get the sheeple to do their fighting for them.  

Wonder how long it will be before those of us who are not among the top 1/10th of 1% will wake up to this truth, whether the war mongers are political, religious or out-of-control capitalists, and just say "NO?"

I must try to remember that, in the bigger scheme of things, humanity is still in its early teen years (or maybe younger)  as far as it's maturity.  So, until we grow up, I guess we cannot expect much rational, ethical, moral, sensible compassionate behavior from the majority of us.   Evidently, just not enough of us see the value in it yet.  Maybe, hopefully, some future generation will fully awaken to what it takes to preserve our earthly home, and live together peacefully and productively.

Hi, Ben;

As this thread's founder, I must object to your post, not because there are not good points made in it (there are), or because I don't like you (I do, really) but because, barring new information, germane to the topic at hand (odd phenomena associated with a recent military exercise), I asked that this thread be quietly allowed to fade into the sunset.

Also, I gave one of the moderators my personal assurance that I would not let this topic would not spin off into Conspiracy Land, without my resistance.  Using the word "sheeple" runs dangerously close to that brink.

So, if you don't mind, I'd like to ask you, and any others with thoughts on the topic of the usefullness/harmfulness of the military to either start another thread, or to seek an existing thread that addresses that topic. 

Thanks, in advance.

 

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