Stay put or move?

23 posts / 0 new
Last post
Brainless's picture
Brainless
Status: Silver Member (Offline)
Joined: Dec 9 2008
Posts: 150
Stay put or move?

One of those difficult decision is wether to stay where you live now or move to 'greener pastures'.

In my case it is a choice between Thailand and The Netherlands.

In both countries i have family and i find it much easier to prepare for unforeseen things in Thailand. If you think about the most essentials you always arrive at the food and energy situation.

For Thailand food seems so much more easy. I have land there of around 11000 m2 full with coconut trees, family has ricefields of around 30000m2. Lots of stuff can be grown. Tropical fruits grow quickly, patatos, rice, fish are abundant. Thailand is a major food exporter so chances of a shortage are slim.

Energy in Thailand is also easier. You don't need heating, airconditioning is a luxury you can live without easily. Cooking gas might be a problem. Some solarpanels for waterpump or some lights.

Actually not much would be different in Thailand when there is a total collapse of the western countries. sure exporters will be making no more money, but nobody will really suffer. I was there when they had a financial breakdown in 1997. Most people just went back to their villages and started helping their family with farming. Nobody died of hunger. 

In the Netherlands i would not have a clue where to start. I live practically on the beach so i could use wind for energy. Now it is not allowed of course to setup a generater for your own electricity and a building permit is out of the question.

Growing food in an appartment is also impossible. Agricutural land is not for sale or rent. Moving to a more agricultural area would be nice if we had something like that.

And let us not forget about winter, they are cold and long. Fortunately it is a little tempered by having a large body of water nearby, it does not get that cold. But nevertheless heating will be a big problem. Multiple layers of clothing can keep you warm, but is it warm enough?

My thought until now was, if i can not sustain myself and family in The Netherlands i just go to Thailand. But even that can be a problem. Tickets probably not available, or when you buy them now they might be cancelled. We travel to Thailand every year for a few months so buying tickets in advance would not be money thrown away.

I would like to be prepared, but honestly preparing yourself when so much is against you is rather difficult. I estimate the changes of a 'simpler society' around 5-10%. But i feel that this percentage is a high enough to start preparing.

Anybody else in this kind of situation, i would like to hear your feelings and opinions.

 

 

radiance's picture
radiance
Status: Silver Member (Offline)
Joined: Oct 11 2008
Posts: 112
Re: Stay put or move?

The fabric of society and the politics of the nation are important. If the leaders of the nation take your resources, what good are they? All the assets are worthless without an intact government acting in your interest. America has abundance but our leaders are at best self-centered thieves seeking to kill seek and destroy. Oh but with smiling faces. Wolves in sheep's clothing. I suggest Thailand.

Ron

kwwilson's picture
kwwilson
Status: Member (Offline)
Joined: Oct 7 2008
Posts: 16
I wish I had your choices...

I personally would find this a no-brainer situation for me. I'd be gone to Thailand in a heartbeat. 

Not because it's Thailand mind you, but for all the reasons you listed.  It seems to me that you have laid out your argument for leaving the Netherlands already, and it is good and sound.  Most rational jurists would now be waiting to hear the other side, and since you did not present any other side, there is really no case to be heard.

Not to co-opt your thread, but I am rather envious of your choice.  I have far fewer choices, as I have given up my (unsustainable, straight from Kunstler's nightmare) house in a (distant) suburb/bedroom community, but do not have property of my own, nor means to aquire any.  I withdrew my services from my previous employment on philisophical grounds, and the same would apply to most long term or 'good' jobs.  Therefore I know fly day to day, by the seat of my pants.

I am going to take my family on a winter motorhome trip to Mexico, before things get too out of hand to allow travel of that sort, and when I return to Canada, I will be trying to rent somewhere I can provide some of my own needs.  If there is to be a crash, I think Mexico is more secure than I am here, and if I return while things are normal, I will be attempting to return to a more independent existence for myself.

Best of luck to you. 

krogoth's picture
krogoth
Status: Platinum Member (Offline)
Joined: Aug 18 2008
Posts: 576
I love Thai food

Ron,

I love Thailand food, but I am already working in Taiwan and China. But Thailand is only a short flight away. If things keep going the way they are, I am seriously considering staying here and not coming back for quite some time. Oh I will visit, but I won't live or pay for this mess in America. I have had it up to my neck with all these illegal and unconstitutional acts, as Congress sits on it's hands and does nothing. It falls under basic taxation without representation, does it not? Well guess what, I am not paying anything to support that.

 

krogoth's picture
krogoth
Status: Platinum Member (Offline)
Joined: Aug 18 2008
Posts: 576
Re: I wish I had your choices...

KWWILSON,

 

I thought Canada was holding up pretty well so far? What's happening that would make you want to leave?

radiance's picture
radiance
Status: Silver Member (Offline)
Joined: Oct 11 2008
Posts: 112
Re: Stay put or move?

What up Krogoth

We are in big trouble here. 300 million guns sitting idle as thieves are coming and going through the back door, while macho dads are asleep, eyes wide open, watching Rambo and dreaming of kicking booty if anyone walks through the front door. Pitiful absolutely pitiful so much young blood spilt for nothing. The tube has conquered everyone without a shot being fired. Stupid dumb beasts don't know to pull the plug and wake-up.

joe2baba's picture
joe2baba
Status: Martenson Brigade Member (Offline)
Joined: Jun 17 2008
Posts: 807
Re: I wish I had your choices...

i would think twice about mexico things are already out of hand there.

there are lots of kidnappings and disappearances. a lot of the people who used to come here for work have gone home and are out of work there

kwwilson's picture
kwwilson
Status: Member (Offline)
Joined: Oct 7 2008
Posts: 16
Re: I wish I had your choices...

Krogoth:

I live in the middle of the area to host the olympics in 2010.  I have seen a real estate bubble (up about 150% in the last 10 years, and almost 100% the ten years prior) of at least as great a significance as the US in general, if not approaching California, but we are only back down less than 20% so far.  Now the stadiums and highways are built, so unemployment is starting to rise, never mind that people from all over Canada commute (by air) to oilsands camp jobs that have started drying up all of a sudden.  Pulp, paper, logging all died in the last five years.  No real manufacturing left... never really was any on the west coast, just resource extraction.

I believe that our institutions will hold up better than the U.S. in general, and have so far, but I distrust crowds at the best of times, and overbearing governments at all times.  With the Greater Vancouver area being about a million spoiled selfish city folk, I don't look forward to the first delayed food shipment.  If I had not walked away from my job, I would be among the best paid blue collar folk in my area, yet still not making enough (Gross Income) to pay a 75% mortgage on the house I rent in a 40 hour week.  I survived the last five years on about 40% of my total income being from overtime, and having my take home eroded by taxation and food inflation.  I have also noticed a significant increase in police presence, and overbearing enforcement, with roadblocks, vehicle inspections and sometimes searches on a random basis and without any consideration for cause.

As far as deflation, I sure don't see any signs in the grocery store, or other necessities.

Right now, I am leaving an area and situation which I find unsustainable, not the country as a whole.  In short, I am not condemning Canada on the whole, but primarily Urban Canada.  When I return in the spring, I will be trying to get out of the way of the urban monster, specifically to an area of about 20000 people with a great (for Canada) microclimate, and some transportation difficulties which would prevent an influx if transport in general became a problem, with all the other social stresses that may entail.

Anyone know the way to the gulch?  Cool

krogoth's picture
krogoth
Status: Platinum Member (Offline)
Joined: Aug 18 2008
Posts: 576
Be careful of certain countries

If you are considering relocating, be careful of making a move to other countries, here is why.

A little background first. I have worked all over the Middle East, Far East and Europe and Latin America, and while most countries are fine in like the UAE (Dubai, Qatar) you still need to be wary of the laws and conditions.

UAE-
In some Arab countries, you can be fined and/or imprisoned easily for little or no reason. For example, you get into a car accident and you caused it. You may go to jail for quite some time (like 10 years) to repay back your debt to the other party in imprisonment. A common mistake by foreigners is to get drunk and drive, causing an accident.

They have "Americanized or Foreigner zones" in most of these more modern countries, where if you are single, you can meet plenty of the opposite sex, and have access to plenty of alcohol, but also be careful because outside these areas are usually a lot of police waiting for you to mess up.

Wages are generally very high, but cost of living is high as well. For example, a modest home to rent can run you about 40k a year, so even if you are making 100-200k a year tax free, you still will get hit by a lot of living expense.

All of these areas are under a prince and/or Muslim law, which can be tricky. For instance, you cannot hold hands, kiss or do anything like that in public, so be careful. You must also observe Muslim traditions and religious situations regardless of your religion.

Mexico-
Stay clear- As Joe said, lots of kidnappings and pretty much rampant crime. If you are a foreigner, you might as well just put a kidnap me sign on your back. This is true for most of Latin America as well.

India-
Well, Joe2baba is practically an expert on India, but my experience is only vacationing in Goa, so that's a different world compared to common India. Ask Joe2babba for any India questions.

Asian Countries-
As language may be a barrier in some countries, for the most part a safe bet with economies that will in my opinion not be so damaged by this global crisis depending on where you are. In China and Taiwan, they always have work for foreigners. Japan is dicey for employment, but I think will get better. the other Asian countries I have been to is purley in a vacation way, so others will need to comment on this.

Europe- Have not travelled or worked in Europe for awhile, so others may be able to give you a more updated version of what is going on in each particular region.

From what KWWILSON and Ron and saying (I am guessing Ron, you are Canadian,) Canada sounds scary now. Ask Ron for guidance on this or the other Canadians on the website.

Anyone else want to comment on where they have been, or where they are from an economic, job or living conditions standpoint, please post it.

 

As for people considering relocating, if you can't get your questions answered here, check Google or Yahoo for foreign worker websites (plenty of them) to see the conditions. Go to the forums on these websites to get the current picture.

 

radiance's picture
radiance
Status: Silver Member (Offline)
Joined: Oct 11 2008
Posts: 112
Re: Stay put or move?

I have been to Canada once. I live near Lake Michigan in rural orchard country, I love the area here, great seasons and lots of snow about 34 inches so far this winter. I can not see another house from mine. As I look out my window I see nothing but the bliss of nature.

Then I go online and get slapped awake by unleashed mad dogs; fangs gnashing, thirsting for human blood, yours and mine. They have peaceful names like Paulson but don't let that deceive you. A cloud has descended on America and she will never be the same again. America must recede for global governance to have its way and that is what is coming and even here.The whole globe will soon tremble with suffering such as has never been seen before. 

Snow is falling tranquillity fills the air. The dogs are asleeping. My wife is knitting another blanket. I am sitting in my big leather recliner pecking at keys sharing thoughts about stuff that are coming and it is all so surreal. A lyric from Pink Floyd now runs through my mind "is anybody out there."

Ron

 

 

kwwilson's picture
kwwilson
Status: Member (Offline)
Joined: Oct 7 2008
Posts: 16
Re: Stay put or move?

Our first wet slushy mucky snowfall out here on the west coast today.   The mexico trip is a vacation, and an opportunity for my kids to see more of the world, and I was really hoping to be gone before this miserable, cold, dark valley got snowy too.  Guess I was too slow.  As much as I am looking forward to spending a couple months catching up on my reading list with my toes in the sand, I am finding both the big picture, and my personal, predicaments quite depressing tonight.

So in answer to your lyrics Ron:

When I try to get through,
On the telephone to you,
There'll be nobody home.

Great album!  I'm gonna play that one tonight, and maybe crack a bottle of Old No. 7 and work on the Numb part too... Wink

Keith

GDon's picture
GDon
Status: Bronze Member (Offline)
Joined: Apr 2 2008
Posts: 86
Re: Stay put or move?

Whether this topic is viewed as a positive or negative is truly a matter of perspective, and I'll put some of the former at work here -

Because my business and professional life have been focused in the mining and resource sectors for the last 30 years, it has afforded me an opportunity to travel out of the US pretty extensively, including Canada, Australia, S America, Central America &, Mexico, Scandinavia, Europe, Mideast, China, and Africa.

Even if one isn't thinking about a permanent move, a short-term work assignment might be enough time to "weather the storm" so to speak, and can be a very positive experience.

Also, I would recommend a visit to the Soveriegn Society investment newsletter:

http://www.sovereignsociety.com/

They also have a section on temporary relocations and/or repatriations, which can provide ideas for locations around the world.

So - it is true enough that the rapid political and economic changes unfolding and ahead for the western world appear  overwhelming to the downside. 

However, depression and a dour attitude is counterproductive to our abilities to think rationally and make necessary value judgements and potentially large-impact decisions, particularly WRT regarding where one chooses to call "home" (keep in context, that in the broadest sense, you are just a temporary "visitor" on the planet after all...)

Ultimately, it's been my experience that people everywhere, really do want the same basics - health, prosperity and happiness.

Further, it is easy to highly underestimate your own ability to assimilate to your surroundings, regardless where you may be.  I've almost always found it to be an exhilirating and positive experience.   While it can initially be slightly disorienting  (particularly with language barriers), the brain establishes a rapid learning "soak rate" during that period of travel (at least for me). 

It's also been my experience that there is little substitute for actually travelling and being in the context of a different country and new surroundings - books, video, internet, etc., really can't provide the gestalt which exists by "being there". 

That said, there are can indeed be striking cultural differences, including differences WRT life rewards and risks, so everyone may have different takes on locales, etc.   

While I do mainatain a philosophical position that America's founders truly did achieve a perigee of individual freedom trended from the Enlightenment, and made the best human effort at putting the individual in heavy balance against the encroachments of government, an honest assessment is that the weak links have been strongly exploited, and in an accelerated fashion.

The toughest part about the current economic and political climate is, I think, how to balance optimism for my children and their future (teens/young adults), while presenting a realistic overview of the changes which are occuring.    As others have noted on this site, each individual achieves an understanding at their own rate (and that includes spouses BTW....)

In any case, I've also had some opportunity to travel with them as well, and again, a very positive expansion of their (and my) awareness.

If you can at all afford it, even if travelling just for the experience to "check it out",  it can instill one's internal optimism from within a pessimistic world and time period. 

It will confirm that there is much to learn, and, as Chris points out in the CC, it is truly an exciting time to be alive.

 

scotthw's picture
scotthw
Status: Bronze Member (Offline)
Joined: Oct 16 2008
Posts: 59
Re: Stay put or move?
radiance wrote:

... and it is all so surreal. A lyric from Pink Floyd now runs through my mind "is anybody out there."

Ron 

 

You gave me my chuckle for the morning - I have been pondering some of the songs from "Momentary Lapse of Reason"... only the moment is going to be VERY long.

Scott

krogoth's picture
krogoth
Status: Platinum Member (Offline)
Joined: Aug 18 2008
Posts: 576
Re: Stay put or move?
GDon wrote:

Whether this topic is viewed as a positive or negative is truly a matter of perspective, and I'll put some of the former at work here -

I look at is as positive, because you can still leave the United States if necessary. It becomes negative when that freedom is ripped from America.

 

 

WhoKnew's picture
WhoKnew
Status: Bronze Member (Offline)
Joined: Dec 11 2008
Posts: 41
Re: Stay put or move?

I am somewhat lucky to have a choice between living in the USA or Europe (probably England). It scares me to think about what is heading our way and the question is where will my family be best served.

For now Ive decided the US. I have in the last 2 yrs gone from an ardent anti gun stance to a wholeheartedly pro gun stance. I have armed myself to the teeth and got a few neighbors to do the same. We have built some decent food reserves in a nearby rented unit which we will remove if it looks like TSHTF.

Still if things really do go down the drain we will have a lot of angry armed people to deal with and possibly angry armed former service personel all out to save their lives. These are very troubling times, my wife cant believe what I've said we need to plan for could happen in the USA so getting her to move (not to the UK but anywhere) is very difficult.

The UK while having a LOT less weapons also has a lot less ways to provide for its population than the USA does.

Being in Thailand on a farm sounds very nice about now, but bear in mind this will be a global catastrophe populations will migrate to find food so Thailand would be invaded at some point.

krogoth's picture
krogoth
Status: Platinum Member (Offline)
Joined: Aug 18 2008
Posts: 576
The War for Triscuits and Twinkies

Well, basically America in the future will be what's happening in Greece right now with guns. Only Americans will be shooting each other for boxes of Triscuits or Twinkies.

As for your invasion theory of Thailand or other places to go, how or what do you think thin invasion will be? Will it be a new army called the "peoples food liberation army of former American's" or PFLAA?

How will they do this masterful invasion of Thailand? By ship? Will they arm themselves, commandeer a Navy ship and start blasting away at Thailand? So funny! Mostly everyone will starve before "invasions" for food will exist. You will be at best stuck in whatever country, with food supplies gone or scarce, unable to travel outside by plane or ship with no gas for anything. And then you will simply just starve. Read up on how long adults can survive without food and water, then think about children and the elderly.

The only people fighting in America will be internally, and they will be fighting the farmers in massive gun-battles over 10 acres of potatoes or something. The worst it will get for America is maybe an invasion of Canada or Mexico, or maybe Canada or Mexico invading America for food. Arm up and get your guns ready, and thanks for the hilarious post!

 

 

Damnthematrix's picture
Damnthematrix
Status: Diamond Member (Offline)
Joined: Aug 10 2008
Posts: 3998
Re: I wish I had your choices...

Too cold?  Too close to the USA?

I'd be inclined to Cuba if they'll have you...  at least they already know how to live sustainably, and they have one of the world's best health system.

I'd consider New Zealand, and would in fact move there myself were it not for too many family ties. 

DrKrbyLuv's picture
DrKrbyLuv
Status: Diamond Member (Offline)
Joined: Aug 10 2008
Posts: 1995
Panama...Costa Rico...or my wife

My wife so far has decided we aren't leaving the country. I am very interested in Panama and have been pleading for her to go take a look. We have two daughters and other family and the tougher things might become, she is all the more insistent that we stay close. So much for my male vanity in thinking I run this family.

Here's an interesting link for those who might be interested in what Panama has to offer:

Panama...the land of opportunity

krogoth's picture
krogoth
Status: Platinum Member (Offline)
Joined: Aug 18 2008
Posts: 576
Re: Panama...Costa Rico...or my wife

Panama is an excellent choice. You could raid the ships as they go through the canal when the food apocalypse starts.

 

 

WhoKnew's picture
WhoKnew
Status: Bronze Member (Offline)
Joined: Dec 11 2008
Posts: 41
Re: Stay put or move?

Krogoth,

 Sorry let me dumb it down a bit. Im going to assume that you know Thailand isnt an island, all this talk of using ships to attack Thailand made me think perhaps you arent that good at geography.

I didn’t mean an invasion by an trained army, I did point out that people migrate to find food in order to survive. Look at Africa for multiple examples.

So what I said above was that there will be human migration/invasion. The point being if there are food shortages in any country, farms will be attacked and thus while a farm in Thailand may sound nice it wont be safe if/when tshtf. I do agree with your assessment of Greece/USA gun battles for triscuits.

 

Brainless's picture
Brainless
Status: Silver Member (Offline)
Joined: Dec 9 2008
Posts: 150
Re: Stay put or move?

Thailands neighbours are indeed more poor and they have less advanced food production. Vietnam will be ok i think as is Laos. The problem can be expected from Cambodia and/or Myanmar. Although the last one is pretty isolated from the rest of the world.

Malasia will be ok too, Singapore will have a big problem when it comes to food. They import just about everything.

I don't expect a total collapse in this region even not in Europe. The US will be hit hardest i am afraid.

Moving to another country is not that easy. First of course the visa situation, housing and work. I am fortunate too have lived in a few countries and so far Thailand seems the best suited to 'sit out' a depression. If you are older than 50 a visa for Thailand is rather easy as you can get an retirement visa. Only have to deposit 800.000 baht in a bank account. Not too much money and that will cover a years expenses easily while even having a buffer.

I have childen with dual nationality making a visa quit easy. I can give more detailed information about Thailand if someone is considering moving to another country.

The reason for me to go to The Netherlands was to get a better education for my children. How fast things can change....

 

wrighttracks's picture
wrighttracks
Status: Member (Offline)
Joined: Dec 14 2008
Posts: 1
Re: Stay put or move?

New to the site. Interesting posts on this tread. I am finding it difficult to imagine moving to another country where, in hard times, we Americans will probably not be well recieved. Yes, when we visit today we are welcomed and our money is taken but under hardship all strangers will be seen with suspicion and probably targeted. It is little different in our oun country when we move to new commnities. Add hardship and the new arrival to Wisconsin from New Mexico will not be welcomed with open arms particularily if commodities are hard to come by. I believe this is almost human nature. It probably is about trust.

I suspect if you are presently in a comfortable situation in a small rural community, sitting tight is the better choice. Grow your community socially and spiritually. Become involved in developing inventories of skills and resources. Scale back and become self sufficient with a mind for your neighbor.

If you live in a large city, which I don't, again develop a tighter community. I'd split personally in that I think stress problems of all sorts will be eccentuated there.

It might be wise to encourage the anti social to move to undesirable areas. Whatever one intends on doing, do it soon as movement may be restricted in the future.

 "All the way to heaven, is Heaven"

pir8don's picture
pir8don
Status: Gold Member (Offline)
Joined: Sep 30 2008
Posts: 456
Re: I wish I had your choices...

It's perhaps not so much where you are as how near to hungry people you are likely to be. Even in a kiwi city of 50k where they are all store fed it doesn't feel too safe given the future we seem to be increasingly expecting. 

Don

Comment viewing options

Select your preferred way to display the comments and click "Save settings" to activate your changes.
Login or Register to post comments