Statism Is Dead!!

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Vanityfox451's picture
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Statism Is Dead!!

This is a link to an item that is designed to provoke comment. However, it is not my intention to offend...

Paul

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Re: 82 Playlisted Tom And Jerry Cartoons!!!

O.K, 139 reads and not a single comment...

How about :-

 Tom And Jerry Cartoons!!!

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Re: Statism Is Dead!!

Paul, rich vids threads = download time, enormous for dial ups.  Hey.

Rosemary

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Re: Statism Is Dead!!

Ghhaa!!! I keep doing this to you...only dial-up net! Get down the library Rose!!!Laughing

Sorry,

Paul

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Re: Statism Is Dead!!

Paul,

I have a similar problem....  I'm on satellite bradband with a 1 GB limit.  When (not IF, we go over all the time) I go over quota, they either charge like wounded bulls, or slow us down to dialup speed, neither of which is enjoyable.  The pleasures of living beyond the Matrix...

Mike 

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Re: Snail Paced Internet foibles!!

Hi Mike,

one of the downsides of living in Hungary is being unable to communicate without a fraise book or translator, thats why I over-spent more on communication and high speed web (A Fortune!!Embarassed). You're right that "The pleasures of living beyond the Matrix" is sometimes the sacrifice but, the last viable place for information is the net (if you can turn up your bullshit detector!!) and is one tool I couldn't gain maximum benefit from here unless I could travel on it limitlessly at a fixed cost. The bill arrives here monthly and, even though we're on a 'limitless tariff', T-mobile tell us in their statement what it would cost if we'd be paying at standard user rate. Bearing in mind I watch global news, BBC radio online broadcast, Times On Line and a variety of films and documentaries plus of course Chris Martenson and You Tube, you'd be more than just a little disgusted to find out that the price works out at 60,000 Forint, or very roughly, 200 pounds sterling or $AUD500 or $250 American (currency translation for other foreign readersWink) per month. To me, with every other marker covered, this is the last 'Tax' I'm paying; such a crazy amount!!

This is all immaterial. I just wish that you, Rosemary and others who are reading this thread could watch and comment without the 'Matrix Tax'...Statism is quite a subject for debate and the link an interesting slant.

Statism :- Wikipedia( for those on snapped springs and wind-up netInnocent)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statism

Paul

P.S.

 I don't advocate, I'm a compiler

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Re: 82 Playlisted Tom And Jerry Cartoons!!!

Paul

 Even by the standards of this website, that's a bleak depiction! But I wish all the anti-capitalists on this site would see this, because while it certainly appears to be a withering indictment of capitalism, it is in fact, meant solely as an indictment of government. The author, Stefan Molyneux is a  hardcore Libertarian (he faults Ron Paul for being inconsistent!) and a pure capitalist - an anarcho-capitalist, actually. Whatever your view, it's a thought provoking video!

There's a link to the text, right on the youtube video, if Rosemary and Mike want to see it http://freedomainradio.com/board/blogs/freedomain/archive/2008/11/26/tru...

Greg 

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Re: 82 Playlisted Tom And Jerry Cartoons!!!

Hi Greg,

Thankyou for sharing your thoughts and making this thread the first of many posts I hope you write on CM.com. you're right, its is a 'Damn' bleak depiction and a 'Very' provoking video. You can build it into many scenario of the present, particularly with all the developments of the Iraq war and the public choices being superceeded by World Government.

A film I've been bandying about here on a couple of threads here is this more ironic take which is a little more pleasing on the ear and the eye :-

Civilization! - *Some Restrictions Apply

Take Care,

Paul

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Re: 82 Playlisted Tom And Jerry Cartoons!!!

Hi VanityFox,

 

Can I just say thanks for introducing me to true news. Its good stuff.

 

Can I return a favour and link you to Micheal Albert's Participatory Economics, you may find it interesting

 

 

cheers,

 

Crash 

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Re: Statism Is Dead!!

That's what I expect to see in the decades ahead. The state is like a dinosaur. It has a tiny brain with a massive body and a voracious appetite for money. With the collapse of fiat money, every nation-state in the world will have to downsize considerably. The masses will have been screwed badly enough that they won't trust fiat money again.

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Re: Adam Curtis - 'The Trap'

Hi Crash,

thankyou for the Micheal Albert interview, he's very inspiring. I feel a new model of governance is not so far away from us; time will tell with more of a 'when' than an 'if'.

I'm going to post a series of films called 'The Trap' by Adam Curtis, which explains in an award winning way, exactly how our governing systems have been designed in our past history and what short-falls they created. I'm most likely going to give this a couple of days before I do this because I've another project running here at CC.com. I'll give you the link here today though :-

Part 1 - The Trap :-

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=404227395387111085&ei=vsCRSYy_IIjojgLPjdS8Cw&q=the+trap

Part 2 :-

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7470134968000083794&ei=gsKRSdLeL5OuiALX2dy3Cw&q=the+trap

Part 3 -

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4486343328817737043&ei=-sKRSdrPLY2siALf-IjJCw&q=the+trap+part+3+of+3

...I hope you find them as valid as I found them...

Take Care,

Paul

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Re: Statism Is Dead!!

Very thought-provoking video.  Note the differences between how this country began (its Constitution that reserved most rights for the people and their states) and how it is ending.  It would seem human nature and venality dooms even the best ventures along the line of central government.

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Re: Statism Is Dead!!

Sorry, but I do not buy into conspiracy theories so easily.  The video did entertain, though.  I must have rolled my eyes about a dozen times at the narrator.  I imagined him wearing a tin foil hat.  I am not saying that everything he said was untrue, but he added enough fertilizer, that it was unable to pass the smell test.  Remember, you are truly free to move to the wilderness and leave society behind, it is just not advantageous for most people.

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Re: Theory / Conspiracy?

Hi Gadfly,

I'm noticing a fairly wide approach to this film both for and against and I'm going to try my best to be as neutral as possible. I have moved out to the 'wilderness' of Hungary from the UK and, the 'Red Tape' and 'Hoops Of Fire' have been strung up like a gauntlet in 'moving from one farm to another'. 

There are a lot of points made here, many of them are tipping the boundaries of ironic. The marrow of this film isn't written out as certainties because the realities are less obvious to most.

At the very least, it does make you think?

Paul 

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Re: Statism Is Dead!!

Paul,

 

  I encourage your thought-provoking discussions and appreciate your effort to remain neutral.  I agree that we must explore different avenues of thought, but, in doing so, we must dissect it and see how it stands up to logic.  This video defeats it's own message by it's very existence.  If the "powers that be" really saw us as cattle that need to be deceived, then the existence of this video proves that they are not doing a good job.  If they are doing such a poor job, how have they sustained the State for so long? This defies logic.

 

Your friend:

Gadfly 

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Re: Statism Is Dead!!

Gadfly,

my friendWink, I like that. I think you've misunderstood me. For a start, I think the patronising way he comes over in the film really grates on me if I'm honest. But I think a great deal of state control has been created through apathy and a defeatist mindset. I mean, how many people have you talked to in daily life about the 3E's? I lost count at somewhere approaching 3000 and I'm still working at it. What percentage are coming on board that the system they're living in has a limited amount of time left to adapt?

The analogy of 'Cattle' surely is a horrible one, yet, I'm feeling that it is almost appropriate if Chris Martenson does his live show infront of an audience of 500,000 people tonight and the results of this work don't show a serious rise in the traffic on this website.

One thing I want to stress, I don't hold full opinion on this film, I wanted others to rip it appart as you have. It deserves some of its smug cleverness to be stripped from it because its head is too far above the crowd; it deserves its head knocking off, if you get my meaning? It needs dissecting down into very small parts and rebuilding to adapt. There is something 'Almost' true about much of it to make it worthwhile putting a thread together for, but it holds a nasty side that I think has an ulteria motive ready to fill the void when we throw off this old social system.

Friend?

Take Care,

Paul

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Re: Statism Is Dead!!

Hi Downrange,

I do indeed note the differences between how America began and how it is ending and I particularly like your use of the word 'Venality' alongside human being in your post. Can I suggest you click on part 1 of 'The Trap' I've set ready in Post #10 as I feel Adam Curtis' documentary follows America and England of the post war years with great clarity. It is a map of the past and places us exactly where we are today.

Paul

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Re: Statism Is Dead!!

While politicians and those who believe in democracy or even statism share some characteristics in common in their philosophies, anarkists are not bound by the same rules or even concepts. I would class myself in the latter category but do not agree with the content of that video. The term 'sheeple' seems to imply the same values held by the maker of this film. It attempts to separate me from you in a derogative way.

I believe that all people have around the same quota of attention for each year of their lives. Some people are forced or persuaded by a variety of factors including physical circumstances to use their attention in ways very different to mine. I have in my eclectic past worked for the coercive arm of the state as a probation officer and almost exclusively encountered people whose actions might well have been mine in their circumstances.

To me anrky is about responsibility to each other face to face. This is not the view portrayed by this film. Anrky is unique in that it describes an absence of authority, an absence that leaves many alternative views and ways of being.

Don

____________________________________________________________

7 billion people can be wrong, very wrong

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Re: Statism Is Dead!!

OK this is just a bit off topic (sorry paul) and is only for those of you that share a persuasion somewhere within the same book. My partner found it. She trolls cyberspace for gems like this.

http://www.theonion.com/content/video/sony_releases_new_stupid_piece_of

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Re: Anarchy...

Hi Don,

I think this is the version inferred :-

Anarchy

"A social state in which there is no governing person or group of persons, but each individual has absolute liberty (without the implication of disorder)."

Wikipedia :-

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchy

Some venture that the American government are a power out of kilter with reality. Therefore, in the minds of the leaders of America, those that disagree with its policies are indeed anarchists?

Much of the subject matter of this site is circling around anarchistic leaning because of proven poor leadership of financial and energy related issues. If it became the mindset of someone who read this thread to take over the Fed by force and won with the vote of the majority of the American people, would they still be deemed an anarchist?

Nelson Mandela makes interesting reading also :-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nelson_mandela

...as the ruling class of his country saw him as an anarchist.

I'm still not content with the maker of this film and the full gamet of his views as I've stated in earlier posts...

Paul

 

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Re: Anarchy...
Vanityfox451 wrote:

"A social state in which there is no governing person or group of persons, but each individual has absolute liberty (without the implication of disorder)."

Wikipedia :-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchy

Can anarky be defined? Surely not. I wouldn't agree that each individual has absolute liberty

Vanityfox451 wrote:

Some venture that the American government are a power out of kilter with reality. Therefore, in the minds of the leaders of America, those that disagree with its policies are indeed anarchists?

Dissagreeing with a way of governing is of course not anarchy.

Vanityfox451 wrote:

Much of the subject matter of this site is circling around anarchistic leaning because of proven poor leadership of financial and energy related issues. If it became the mindset of someone who read this thread to take over the Fed by force and won with the vote of the majority of the American people, would they still be deemed an anarchist?

 

Not in my view. 

Vanityfox451 wrote:

I'm still not content with the maker of this film and the full gamet of his views as I've stated in earlier posts...

Yes  read those before posting.  Anarky is used as a term to describe chaos by some people and I hoped to highlight that the views of the makers of this film were not necessarily those of all anrkists and to thereby help remove some of the taint.

Have you seen? http://www.peakprosperity.com/forum/statism-dead-matrix-revisited/9831

Don

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7 billion people can be wrong, very wrong

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Re: Statism Is Dead!!
pir8don wrote:

OK this is just a bit off topic (sorry paul) and is only for those of you that share a persuasion somewhere within the same book. My partner found it. She trolls cyberspace for gems like this.

http://www.theonion.com/content/video/sony_releases_new_stupid_piece_of

I was holding my breath so my wife wouldn't hear me laugh out loud as she was working to get the kiddies in bed. She thinks I'm doing serious business on this PC after all...

Rog

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Re: Statism Is Dead!!

Glad you enjoyed it Rog. Had the same effect on me. Given the money I could easily be the guy outside 'best buy' who ran out to buy. Only money constrains my love of gadgets.

Don

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7 billion people can be wrong, very wrong

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Re: Anarchy...

Don,

thanks for your input, you've given me a good laugh. Of course the speed at which you've jumped in here has missed the point of why I posted this film or what I've stated in earler posts.

Where is Nelson Mandela in your arguement; most definately an anarchist in the eyes of the ruling government that imprisoned him for 27 years, or hasn't that fitted with your arguement, let alone your ability to spell it.

If a government fights and wins back power after almost being overthrown, exactly what term do you give the people they imprisoned. Of course you can always lay to waste the full text of mine by cutting it short.

Taint is one polite word I'd use for someone who blunders into a thread ready to hack off a pound of flesh; I gather you didn't like the comment on Bills thread that you had to suck-up to, or was it a past vent of mine you took umbridge of; fight your own battles Don.

I don't buy the wash...

Paul

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Re: Anarchy...

Paul

You're a bit fractious. Hope you get over it soon

Don

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7 billion people can be wrong, very wrong

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Re: Anarchy...

Don,

You must've been the supporting act?

Paul

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Re: Statism Is Dead!!

Its your party Paul, Cry if you want to.

Don

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7 billion people can be wrong, very wrong

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Re: Statism Is Dead!!

 

"This video defeats it's own message by it's very existence.  If the "powers that be" really saw us as cattle that need to be deceived, then the existence of this video proves that they are not doing a good job.  If they are doing such a poor job, how have they sustained the State for so long? This defies logic."

Gadfly

I think you have it backwards here. I'm pretty sure Stefan Molyneux (the author) would argue that the "powers that be" are in fact doing a fine job, - that they have so thoroughly deceived us, for so long, that they aren't even concerned about internet bloggers and youtube videos like this one. This is just an example of the illusion of freedom he refers to in the film, when 1 out of 1,000 cows is allowed to escape. The few people like Molyneux, trying to be heard, are easily marginalized, or harmlessly drowned out by the superficial banalities of the mainstream media. Why should they be worried?

Molyneux's view is perhaps darker and more dystopian than it needs to be, (that's the fun of it, though!) but to me there is truth in almost everything he says here. And I don't think he is a conspiracy theorist, either, strictly speaking. Molyneux is an extreme Libertarian, an anarchist. He views "state capitalism" as capitalism subverted by the state. The result of this is what he calls "the Matrix." In his view, we create government to protect us, but because of it's monopoly coercive power, it inevitably attracts those who want to control others, and inevitably, it continuously expands until "that which we create to 'serve' us ends up ruling us" I am not an anarchist, but I think that's essentially correct.

Molyneux likes to refer to the activity of government, because of it's monopoly coercive power as "violence." He refers to the activity of the private sector as "voluntarism." This sounds extreme at first, because after all, the government gives to the poor, right? Yes, but how do they accomplish that? They do it by taking the money away from someone else by force. If you don't pay your income tax you will be arrested and imprisoned. If you own a house and you don't pay your property tax, your house will be taken away. And so on. You don't like warfare and killing people? Well that's to bad, because the government will take the money away from you and I to pay for it anyway. They have the guns.

Cattle? Sheeple? That sounds harsh, but sadly, there's truth to it. But I never use those words with disdain. The people should not be blamed. I only have disdain for the system, and the misguided and manipulative few who have done this to us. Molyneux describes government schools as "indoctrination pens for livestock" where "they train children to 'love' the farm, and to fear true freedom and independence." I would put it quite a bit less jarringly! But again, I largely agree. Two time NY City and NY State school teacher of the year,John Taylor Gatto explains this better than anybody. http://www.cantrip.org/gatto.html

In my view, after many decades of dismantling, ignoring, and circumventing the constitution, state capitalism has largely brought us to the dystopian scenario Molyneux describes so disturbingly. We are all in the matrix now. Conspiracy theory? I would just call it the inevitable outcome of both intended and unintended consequences. Until we take it upon ourselves to change, the rich will continue to become richer, the poor will become poorer, and we will be less and less free. It's up to us.

Peace

Greg 

 

 

 

 

 

 

  

 

 

 

 

 

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Re: Statism Is Dead!!

Congratulations Greg

Maybe shock will shake some of us from our complacency but I fear too few. We must move from where we are, not jump into the distance and try to call back. You have put the message of the film far better than the film. Thanks for the link too. Great to think that there are people with such insight who no longer teach for the state.

Peace to you too.

Don

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7 billion people can be wrong, very wrong

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Re: Statism Is Dead!!

Hi Greg,

The transcript you found for me earlier in the thread - with thanks :-

" The Matrix is one of the greatest metaphors ever. Machines invented to make human life easier end up enslaving humanity - this is the most common theme in dystopian science fiction.

Why is this fear so universal - so compelling? Is it because we really believe that our toaster and our notebook will end up as our mechanical overlords?

Of course not.

This is not a future that we fear, but a past that we are already living.

Supposedly, governments were invented to make human life easier and safer, but governments always end up enslaving humanity.

That which we create to "serve" us ends up ruling us.

The US government "by and for the people" now imprisons millions, takes half the national income by force, over-regulates, punishes, tortures, slaughters foreigners, invades countries, overthrows governments, imposes 700 imperialistic bases overseas, inflates the currency, and crushes future generations with massive debts.

That which we create to "serve" us ends up ruling us.

The problem with the "state as servant" thesis is that it is historically completely false, both empirically and logically.

The idea that states were voluntarily invented by citizens to enhance their own security is utterly untrue.

Before governments, in tribal times, human beings could only produce what they consumed -- there was no excess production of food or other resources. Thus, there was no point owning slaves, because the slave could not produce any excess that could be stolen by the master.

If a horse pulling a plow can only produce enough additional food to feed the horse, there is no point hunting, capturing and breaking in a horse.

However, when agricultural improvements allowed for the creation of excess crops, suddenly it became highly advantageous to own human beings.

When cows began to provide excess milk and meat, owning cows became worthwhile.

The earliest governments and empires were in fact a ruling class of slave hunters, who understood that because human beings could produce more than they consumed, they were worth hunting, capturing, breaking in - and owning.

The earliest Egyptian and Chinese empires were in reality human farms, where people were hunted, captured, domesticated and owned like any other form of livestock. Due to technological and methodological improvements, the slaves produced enough excess that the labor involved in capturing and keeping them represented only a small subset of their total productivity. The ruling class - the farmers - kept a large portion of that excess, while handing out gifts and payments to the brutalizing class - the police, slave hunters, and general sadists - and the propagandizing class - the priests, intellectuals, and artists.

This situation continued for thousands of years, until the 16-17th centuries, when again massive improvements in agricultural organization and technology created the second wave of excess productivity. The enclosure movement re-organized and consolidated farmland, resulting in 5-10 times more crops, creating a new class of industrial workers, displaced from the country and huddling in the new cities.

This enormous agricultural excess was the basis of the capital that drove the industrial revolution.

The Industrial Revolution did not arise because the ruling class wanted to free their serfs, but rather because they realized how additional "liberties" could make their livestock astoundingly more productive.

When cows are placed in very confining stalls, they beat their heads against the walls, resulting in injuries and infections. Thus farmers now give them more room -- not because they want to set their cows free, but rather because they want greater productivity and lower costs.

The next stop after "free range" is not "freedom."

The rise of state capitalism in the 19th century was actually the rise of "free range serfdom."

Additional liberties were granted to the human livestock not with the goal of setting them free, but rather with the goal of increasing their productivity.

Of course, intellectuals, artists and priests were - and are - well paid to conceal this reality.

The great problem of modern human livestock ownership is the challenge of "enthusiasm."

State capitalism only works when the entrepreneurial spirit drives creativity and productivity in the economy.

However, excess productivity always creates a larger state, and swells the ruling classes and their dependents, which eats into the motivation for additional productivity. Taxes and regulations rise, state debt (future farming) increases, and living standards slow and decay.

Depression and despair began to spread, as the reality of being owned sets in for the general population.

The solution to this is additional propaganda, antidepressant medications, superstition, wars, moral campaigns of every kind, the creation of "enemies," the inculcation of patriotism, collective fears, paranoia about "outsiders" and "immigrants," and so on.

It is essential to understand the reality of the world.

When you look at a map of the world, you are not looking at countries, but farms.

You are allowed certain liberties - limited property ownership, movement rights, freedom of association and occupation - not because your government approves of these rights in principle - since it constantly violates them - but rather because "free range livestock" is so much cheaper to own and so more productive.

It is important to understand the reality of ideologies.

State capitalism, socialism, communism, fascism, democracy - these are all livestock management approaches.

Some work well for long periods - state capitalism - and some work very badly - communism.

They all fail eventually, because it is immoral and irrational to treat human beings as livestock.

The recent growth of "freedom" in China, India and Asia is occurring because the local state farmers have upgraded their livestock management practices. They have recognized that putting the cows in a larger stall provides the rulers more milk and meat.

Rulers have also recognized that if they prevent you from fleeing the farm, you will become depressed, inert and unproductive. A serf is the most productive when he imagines he is free. Thus your rulers must provide you the illusion of freedom in order to harvest you most effectively.

Thus you are "allowed" to leave - but never to real freedom, only to another farm, because the whole world is a farm. They will prevent you from taking a lot of money, they will bury you in endless paperwork, they will restrict your right to work -- but you are "free" to leave. Due to these difficulties, very few people do leave, but the illusion of mobility is maintained. If only 1 out of 1,000 cows escapes, but the illusion of escaping significantly raises the productivity of the remaining 999, it remains a net gain for the farmer.

You are also kept on the farm through licensing. The most productive livestock are the professionals, so the rulers fit them with an electronic dog collar called a "license," which only allows them to practice their trade on their own farm.

To further create the illusion of freedom, in certain farms, the livestock are allowed to choose between a few farmers that the investors present. At best, they are given minor choices in how they are managed. They are never given the choice to shut down the farm, and be truly free.

Government schools are indoctrination pens for livestock. They train children to "love" the farm, and to fear true freedom and independence, and to attack anyone who questions the brutal reality of human ownership. Furthermore, they create jobs for the intellectuals that state propaganda so relies on.

The ridiculous contradictions of statism -- like religion -- can only be sustained through endless propaganda inflicted upon helpless children.

The idea that democracy and some sort of "social contract" justifies the brutal exercise of violent power over billions is patently ridiculous.

If you say to a slave that his ancestors "chose" slavery, and therefore he is bound by their decisions, he will simply say:

"If slavery is a choice, then I choose not to be a slave."

This is the most frightening statement for the ruling classes, which is why they train their slaves to attack anyone who dares speak it.

Statism is not a philosophy.

Statism does not originate from historical evidence or rational principles.

Statism is an ex post facto justification for human ownership.

Statism is an excuse for violence.

Statism is an ideology, and all ideologies are variations on human livestock management practices.

Religion is pimped-out superstition, designed to drug children with fears that they will endlessly pay to have "alleviated."

Nationalism is pimped-out bigotry, designed to provoke a Stockholm Syndrome in the livestock.

The opposite of superstition is not another superstition, but the truth.

The opposite of ideology is not a different ideology, but clear evidence and rational principles.

The opposite of superstition and ideology - of statism - is philosophy.

Reason and courage will set us free.

You do not have to be livestock.

Take the red pill.

Wake up.  "

 

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Re:Soma - Hallucinogen...

Greg,

in a word, your timing was perfect...

Since my early teens and the support of an excellent English teacher who recognised my class disruptions were caused by restlessness, I've been directed to what it is that makes society tick. He lit a fire in me with authors such as Aldous Huxley, George Orwell and Ray Bradbury; those that formed what on the surface appeared as strange a universe inside their pages, to dig deeper and find hidden and even more obvious parallels wih daily life and world governance has remained a fascination. That those flames of intrigue are lit brighter now through current events is all the better for the extra schooling I gained with too many enthusiastic questions thrown at that very teacher that I suppose with modern political correctness is now deemed morally wrong. I think my life has been richer for the benefit.

I've travelled for much of my life with one book or another buried under clothes in a shoulder bag with guitar in hand, such as Ken Kesey, Joseph Heller, Gabriel Garcia Marquez and any number of swapped, begged, borrowed and stolen tombs that have given light to the journey - many a restaurant closing its doors for the last customer, namely me, because I was so engrossed in my new aquisition in many cities throughout the world - many places being enriched in a new light because of them - many a conversation given more depth on my travels with Jack Kerouac, Hunter S Thompson, William S Burroughs and Allen Ginsberg's The Fall Of America.

The book burning of Fahrenheit 451, the drugged stuper of Brave New World and the clostraphobia of 1984 in my own way lead me here and to this point. To think outside of the box is a difficult thing to maintain and, for many it is but to follow and never to lead. Our lives are bombarded with more and more of an unreal paradox and of the collective right and wrong.

I leave this piece for its dissection as a 41 year-old qualified dissenter.

Paul

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