Socialism question

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jneo's picture
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Socialism question

 

I'm pretty sure we all know someone in the military.  I have conversations with a buddy who is in the military and we talk about stuff and issues that is brought up on this site.  He is more of the conservative type, so he is against socialism/communism.  

My question is this:  Isn't the military socialism?  The government provides all housing, healthcare, food, clothing and so on, isn't that socialism?

Some people will say no,(sean hannity people)  but it seems like they see things black and white.  Military = good Socialism = Bad, therefore the military is not socialism.

Any thoughts?  

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Re: Socialism question

Sounds to me like you are just looking to argue with your friend and using the military as a "gotcha"!

But you need to understand that most conservatives feel that national defense is one of the only good uses of federal government and a well-functioning military is a part of that. People volunteer for the military, they are not being forced into a communal/socialist organization. This is therefore not the same as forcing everyone in America to "share their wealth" under nationally-coerced socialism.

 

 

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Re: Socialism question

 

On some level yes it is a gotcha.  Also you say no one is forced into the military, a pretty and very unsupported response.  Of course people on some level are forced to serve.  Could be anywhere from family tradition to economic.  If the american people say they want smaller government and less spending then how can you support a Big military or increasing it?  

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Re: Socialism question
JK121 wrote:

Isn't the military socialism?  The government provides all housing, healthcare, food, clothing and so on, isn't that socialism?

I think most people don't know what socialism, communism, or capitalism mean. Like that angry woman who yelled at the Congressman, "Keep your government hands off my Medicare!" they have no clue.

According to Wikipedia:
"Socialism is an economic and political theory advocating public or common ownership and cooperative management of the means of production and allocation of resources."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism

"Communism is a sociopolitical movement that aims for a stateless and classless society structured upon common ownership of the means of production, free access to articles of consumption, the end of wage labour and private property in the means of production and real estate."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communism

"Capitalism is an economic system in which the means of production are privately owned and operated for a private profit; decisions regarding supply, demand, price, distribution, and investments are made by private actors in the free market; profit is distributed to owners who invest in businesses, and wages are paid to workers employed by businesses and companies."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capitalism

Obviously no country on Earth is purely one or another. And the "end games" of each system can turn out horribly because of human nature.

Military
As for a military, I guess if you consider a military to produce goods and services (in this case, protection and defense of a nation and its people), it could conceivably be provided by a private service (e.g. mercenary companies), or a public service (universal conscription), or a voluntary force. Its maintenance is typically paid for by designating a portion of public taxes and revenue (most nations), but can also be paid for by private enterprise (e.g. privateers) or a mix (state-owned Chinese companies that exist to product goods for sale, in order to fund the military). Its management and "ownership" is usually considered public, but can also be private.

You have an argument there, though one not generally recognized by most people since it's not in their worldview to consider it so.

Poet

 

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Re: Socialism question

 

I agree Poet that no country is just 1 type of economy.  Just making an observation that's all.  Not all socialism is bad then.  

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Re: Socialism question

The military's industrial resources are privatized.
The military does not "create" anything - this is the contrast between Socialism and a free-enterprise system.

Military leaders are entirely unconcerned with the production of good with which they carry out their mission, so long as the items exist..
This has significant advantages over pure socialisms (Centrally Planned Economies), because it allows the military to function without the strain of hard logistics, allowing military leaders to exploit the advantages inherant to a free market system while having the distribution system streamlined like a planned economy would be.

In short, the argument being presented on either side is superficial and myopic, as was pointed out above.

Also, the military is anything but classless. It would be more analogous to Facism than communism, as there are distinct classes and ranks which carry their own priveldges, traditions and responsibilities.
This is even somewhat short-sided as an argument because within a pay grade, specialization reserves you no financial stipends; ergo, someone who goes to school for 6 weeks to work in a gym handing out towels and basketballs makes the same pay as a Nuclear Technician on a Trident class sub - provided they are of the same pay grade.

However, having lived within the Military system, a veteran has significantly more experience with a society in which you're somewhat confined and certainly powerless to make your own executive decisions due to a system of management - not unlike Soviet communism, which had a similar "two tier" system in which you were either filthy rich or begging to trade razors for beet sugar. So vets have a unique perspective with the benefits and drawbacks of a social arrangement which provides equal pay for exceptionally different jobs, where many resources are provided (and probably lack quality) and where central authorities dictate, rather than present ideas.

This is less articulate than I'd like it to be, but long to short, this is not in any way a simple comparison.

Cheers,

Aaron

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Re: Socialism question

 

Good explanation Aaron.  I simply see it as, it's a government service, provided by government and tax payers.  

 

As far as the classless issue goes, how do people feel about that?  Not sure if that can ever exist. If all of us on this site earn the same amt of income, would we see the formation of classes due to peoples culture/life style?  

 

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Re: Socialism question
JK121 wrote:

As far as the classless issue goes, how do people feel about that?  Not sure if that can ever exist. If all of us on this site earn the same amt of income, would we see the formation of classes due to peoples culture/life style?  

There already are classes based on culture/lifestyle and background. 

Someone like myself who has worked to build a business and has therefore netted poverty level wages in the "spaghetti years" is nonetheless at an entirely different class level than someone who is considered among the working poor. I went to a good college and have a degree. My level of education alone puts me in a specific class more than my income in any given year.

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Re: Socialism question

JK,

I can't say about everyone else - there are certainly people who advocate classlessness, but I see it as silly to even consider. There is no species on earth which does not respond to class. I don't think that it's as simple as who has a college degree, and like everything in our society, it's far too objective, but it (class) is a successful system.

I'm sure there are various studies in support of either argument, but I'm a believer that a certain portion of society is satisfied with simply existing, and don't really have any interest in "improving" their position, and a society that grants that opportunity unilaterally is truly all that any of us can hope for. Oligarical societies have failed because lineage (Family Class) no guarantee of aptitude.

The Erasing of class is tantamount of a "opposite" to me, and therefore I find the middle ground of a meritorious society with class distinctions and privledges to be function and equitable. It also satisfies *my* moral and ethical considerations. Others may find that it doesn't work for them.

Cheers,

Aaron

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Re: Socialism question

JK121-- I guess you could call your buddy a "warfare queen". In actual fact though, the real warfare queens are transnational defence contractors who build weapons AND control the media (GE) with a small handful of other war shills. 80% of what's left of  the manufacturing base of the U.S is now directly related to the military. That's funded by  YOUR taxes. Sounds a whole lot like welfare to me. 

In other words the American economy is the worst welfare economy in the world, by far-- and anyone associated with it is worse than someone sitting at home eating twinkies, because they are complicit in a system that requires blood and guts to survive.  Nice if it were just a metaphor. Gruesome beyond belief that is the base reality. It would be a  whole lot cheaper for the tax payer and easier on the collective psyche of foreigners,  if the American economy WAS  based entirely around mobidly obese couch potatos, watching reruns of "Survival".

The other  warfare queens are mercenary outfits like Blackwater who pay their mercenary soldiers 3, 4, 5 times as much as the poor suckered National guardsmen, fed to the IED's in the NATO occupied nations.

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Re: Socialism question

AP,

I know you thrive on being obnoxious and right, but you have NO clue what you're talking about, and should be ashamed of yourself for your lack of insight wrapped in witless cynicism.

 

I'll  tell you here and now, that national guardsman didn't  get suckered. He and almost all other servicepeople serve and ideal that transcends -isms, the ideals of the constitution that not only allow, but demand your unreasoned, illogical and emotional conclusions be heard as an integral process of change for the greater good. The abuse of the armed forces is beyond the soldiers control, but in any given day, his existence precludes more atrocities than you can even fathom, and I'm sure you've never experienced.

 

Further, the members of Mercenary groups like Executive Outcomes are heroes, having done more to right wrongs than most soldiers, who are constrained by the rules of war to prune, rather than uproot evils like the RUF.

 

Keep your rants supported by evidence, decent or to yourself.

Cheers to our brave and honorable armed forces,

 

Aaron

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Re: Socialism question

Aaron,

I also served in our military, from 1991 to 1995. Ther a alot of good people in the service but lets not kid ourselves about most of their reasons for being there. The majority are there for a job and benefits, to be taken care of. Yes they do care about our country but they could also have done something in the private sector that would benefit their own community. Almost all enlisted persons, they are the largest percentage of people in our military, do not have an education beyond high school so it would be difficult for them to get a decent paying job that has benefits.

As for persons serving in the National Guard, most  are not there because of ideals. Our society is way too selfish for that to be the case. People look out for themselves and the Guard pays for college. Yes some are there for the reasons you spoke of but you are painting with too broad a brush. If the Guard could fill its ranks without paying for college and giving out bonuses for enlisting they would. If the economy was great and jobs were plentiful the armed forces would have a hard time filling its ranks also.

Your response to Ap is too rigid and does not allow for flexibility. If you apply what AP wrote to servicemen individually he is very wrong. But if you apply it to the institution he is mostly correct. They way our military is used today is abhorrent and our "leaders" should be ashamed of themselves. I will not g into detail on this as I don't have an hour to write. As for the mercenary groups I am not sure what to think. Too many things have happened for me to say they are the best thing since sliced bread. I just don't see how it can be good for private corporations to send armed men with little or no supervision to act as they see fit and hope they "do the right thing" . Why have they not been held accountable for some pretty serious transgressions? My short answer is I don't know.

You write in absolutes giving no room for another opnion or idea to have merit.  Try to see another side of a disagreement. That doesn't mean you have to change your mind, just get a different perspective.

Fluidity is the way to life. Fixation is the way to death. This is something that should be well understood." -Miyamoto Musashi, the Book of Five Rings 'Gripping the long sword'

Rich

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Re: Socialism question
Aaron Moyer wrote:

The military's industrial resources are privatized.
The military does not "create" anything - this is the contrast between Socialism and a free-enterprise system.

Military leaders are entirely unconcerned with the production of good with which they carry out their mission, so long as the items exist..

This is not consistent with what I have observed regarding the defense procurement (and fulfillment) cycle.

I have seen deeply imbedded participation in privatized entities by active military members in the contract specification, contract performance, timeline performance, as well as the widely acknowledged delivery and acceptance phases.

I’ve seen the same thing in development (R&D) projects as well.

In short, it’s pretty hard to tell the defense contractors from the active military, unless you consider badge color to be significant.

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Re: Socialism question
Aaron Moyer wrote:

Further, the members of Mercenary groups like Executive Outcomes are heroes, having done more to right wrongs than most soldiers, who are constrained by the rules of war to prune, rather than uproot evils like the RUF.

 

Aaron

You should be dismissed from this site, for this one statement alone. You seem to be advocating for atrocities here and illustrating something very dangerous, indeed; not just  for foreigners in occupied lands, but for the moral fabric of your own country. You are suggesting that a private militia,  answerable to a corporate authority, rather than a higher legal one is heroic, because they can act extra-judicially. Seriously, you should be booted right off the forum.

[Moderator's note: This post is a violation of the Forum Guidelines because of its deliberately aggressive tone and failure to respond to relevant points in a temperate and neutral manner.  It reads as a personal attack against another user, which is expressly prohibited. Corrective action with the poster has been undertaken.]

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Re: Socialism question

Wow, you guys are hard to beat! What a great idea to model society after a military/ socialist structure! Great thinking, and so "outside the box" too.

After 17 years in the military, I can guarantee that if you think this is some sort of a model for a larger society, then you are a moron. [Moderator's Note: Please re-read our forum guidelines and email me if you have any questions].

Once again, point to a pure socialist model that has worked in history...

Crickets.

I know if it wasnt for the United States the Soviets would have been great! If only they had more control.....gasp.....do you think a globally dominant government could enforce the socialist model? We should collectivise everything and try it!

How many human lives do these little socialist experiments cost? On average I mean, just a round number. You know the ones who "don't get it" and want to cling to their stuff. Like the Jews in Germany and the intellectuals in Cambodia. You know, the average Joe's who just needed to submit to reeducation. How many really just had to die to get it right?

3 million per socialist experiment? More?

How about food shortages? How many died under socialist centrally planned food systems and farming? 56 million in Yugoslavia alone wasn't it?

I left the military when my wife was forced to wait 6 months into her high risk pregnancy before she was allowed to see a doctor, among other things. Of course socialism works, we should make everyone wait to see physicians...oh wait, we already are and trying to make the wait longer by forcing everyone into a single payer (no choice) system that will of course "provide more choices". Orwellian. Disgusting.

And failed every time it has been tried.

Best of luck with your little dominate the world socialist plans. I think Aaron and I might need some really good re-education. Our real world experiences are of course meaningless when compared to your intellectual might and collegiate debates.

Jager06

PS- Agitating Pro, well said. You just proved my point for me, silence Aaron and do away with him because he espouses a different belief than you, based on different information no doubt. Well done sir, I cannot thank you enough. Send him somehwere else for re education, silence him!!!

HAHA! You guys are tools. But I don't want you to change a bit. I appreciate you for what you have to offer. I don't feel compelled to silence you for your belief systems. Please try to reciprocate that, as difficult as it may seem for you.

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Re: Socialism question
Jager06 wrote:

Best of luck with your little dominate the world socialist plans. I think Aaron and I might need some really good re-education. Our real world experiences are of course meaningless when compared to your intellectual might and collegiate debates.

Jager06

Jager06 -

I think this is my first exchange with you, so let's do some battlespace preps first - thank you for your service.  I am a 24 year veteran (Navy Submariner, retired in 2003) so I understand and can appreciate the sacrifices you and your family made and continue to make in support of your service.

Just a word of warning though - guys like you, me and Aaron clearly do not have any idea what we are talking about.  These debates are much better left to those who never served - or at best have an friend or family member who is in and of course they now know everything.

And I might be a bit parochial, but modeling a society after the Navy's Nuclear Program just might work.  We eat our own, and you either perform to a rigorous standard or you are gone.

For what it's worth, I went through a pretty good reducation program that I think would work for you and Aaron - if you don't mind bluegrass music.

Anyway, this isn't my debate - just wanted to say hello and thanks.

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Re: Socialism question

How interesting that those who live in a world with real consequences, life and death consequences to our decisions, all agree on so many things.

It reminds of a saying someone once said....some old guy who is probably no longer relevant...what was it?

“Those who do not do battle for their country do not
know with what ease they accept their citizenship in
America.”
- Dean Brelis, “The Face of South Vietnam”

Thanks for your time in the Silent Service Dogs. Your command has been and continues to be appreciated.

You, Aaron and I, as well as any others on here who share similar trials and experiences, should hoist a beer in a more fraternal setting sometime.

Jager06

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Re: Socialism question

Aaron, Jager06, and DIAP,

They don't get it and they never will get it until they personally experience the consequences of their worldview.  Thank you all for your service.  You shouldn't have to put up with this BS.

P.S. If they get in a bind, I'm sure Jane Fonda will come running to their rescue.

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Re: Socialism question

WW2 vets talk about Iraq war contrast war of necessity versus others.

Blackwater mercenaries:

Favorite "ism" of aggressive mental defectives--militarism

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Re: Socialism question

   What ever ism you want to call it ... you will have to search far and wide to find even one person who is not proud of the time spent in the  U.S.military  . They would not give up the experiences nor the friendships they had while in service. I would not hesitate one minute to call on any one of them in a time of need . What ever faults are in the system  you can not say the people do not have heart and would not die to save another persons butt .

  From personal experience   I can say It was not an easy thing to retire and enter the world  where people would stab you in the back to get your job or  try their hardest to pull one over on you to climb higher .... Like crabs in a basket clawing their way to the top stomping on anyone that was in their way  . They do not know team work .  How oh how do you trust these people ? Also it was hard   to fit in socially  with people who were hung up on  status to form friendships .   JK121   cherish  your buddy .... I am here to tell you he would fight to save your A**  even if you mock or scorn him .

  Brainwashed maybe,  but my husband will go to his grave proud to have served .

 FM

 Sorry Jager for your wives difficult pregnancy experience .  Sometimes they just happen and even on the outside they are not pleasant or  have a happy ending .

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Re: Socialism question

Agitating Prop:

The premise of your arguments is based in ignorance and willful misrepresentation of the truth by your sources.

I agree that WW2 vets deserve a say, and when it supports your political agenda, all the best for you.

My personal story and experiences are different than those that you posted. I find it compelling that the same positions taken by a PHD are the ones promotedby the least educated and those unable to see the complete view of the larger picture.

I feel sorry for you that you feel compelled to be so destructive, and yet you do not know what it is you are trying to destroy.

I also find it compelling that the woman in your video lists the crimes commited by Blackwater include being "Christian, fundamentalist Right Wing conservatives".

If it were not for Blackwater I would not have survived Iraq. You will not find any sympathy for your (lack) of perspective here.

I wish I had time to couterpoint and prove every allegation you are making is wrong, with some exceptions (naturally). But to fundamentally say that everyone who supported the war was commiting crimes against humanity and to follow that with a condemnation of the government political structure that does not follow your guidelines is just wierd to me.

What is even wierder is the current war operations, that no longer exist by media standards. The current administration is somewhat moving in the direction you feel is important for America. I might describe that as more government authority, more individual services for citizens, more centralized authority and less reliance on the Constitution for legal basis.  Yet, within the context of the war, there is no longer any media coverage. And the war is now more violent and deadly than the last 8 years combined for our troops. Why the dichotomy of representation? Why the attempt to pull one over on the citizenry?

And still, I have yet to see anyone publicly acknowledge the real reasons for going to war. It is turning into a resource control war, I agree. But in the begining when the truth should have been told, we clammed up and the reality of our fight has been denied. This ensures an eventual loss for the United States, regardles of military might. The inability to declare our enemies, and explain them in terms the use to explain and justify themselves, the inability to view their historical activities and put those events into context, all but guarantee the US failure.

So can anyone tell me why we have a super state intelligence system set up at home? How about why a government agency xrays citizens (with government money) to fly on for profit corporate aircraft?

We are responding to our threat, our enemies, by building a socialist apparatchik, which suits the the left and is why we have the simultaneous disinformation campaign regarding our enemies. If we deny their intentions, deliberately bring them here, and they then attack us, we will have to enforce more draconian "safety" measures and enlarge government. Which will at some point be large enough to provide all of the safety we could ever need, and very simply take our liberty in return for that safety. Which brings us back to socialism not being a viable alternative to our current round of social problems.

By the way, how much time have you spent in the war zone (any of them) Prop?

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Re: Socialism question

 

OH!!!! People I think you are getting my view all wrong.  This is not an Anti-military forum, but it seems like that issue found it's way in, I can see that due to the context, so I guess it's no big deal.  This is a place for discussion.

What I am saying is that the Conservative crowed (hannity people) in the military who say socialism in Bad, are really bashing their own government provided institution no matter what it's task is.  Having said that, I have concluded that NOT all social programs are Bad.  Meaning the military is good even though it's a socialistic institution.  

Countries do need militaries, but we are seeing certain trends form of ever growing military conflicts and we are not getting any real results only more hostilities and bigger spending.  

Ok could write more but I have about 2 feet of snow to deal with.  later all

 

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Re: Socialism question

  Sorry you all , what I said before was from emotions and unfairly generalizing from experiences .  You very well may know how to be a team player in your little corner of the world .

 FM

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Re: Socialism question

Socialisms/statisms end result, brainwashed from birth, brainwashed for life. What most statists won't admit is there is a gun behind their wages, even the people in the military or police, money is taken by force from the productive and given to the parasites who blank out the fact that they are armed robbers at heart, who believe it's moral to do this because they need it. I hope some day that this will end, that the police and military will realize that they enable the criminals as do the people who idolize politicians.

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Re: Socialism question

 Oh my ,Greg ,  this is just not  something  that we can even imagine .   And they so willing worship this man.

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Re: Socialism question

AP,

In order to claim any benefit from military service, you must "prove" yourself, over and over again. There are easier ways to pay for college than with blood, sweet and tears that any servicemember knows well.  Its a calling, and the depth of honor that is required by any servicemmber -whether they know it or not- is more than simple compensation.

Further, you have no idea what you're talking about. EO killed off a murderous gang for a government who couldn't handle the threat themselves. They were celebrated by the locals who, thanks to these war-queening profiteers, no longer had to fear being mutilated or raped to death.

Watch this:

Then perhaps consider that your media sources might be skewed, and the reality in the bush is different than the reality presented by MSNBC. Your myopic view really needs to be revisited with an open mind.

DIAP, Jager, AO - some brews sounds like a great plan to me. Thanks for the real world backup brothers.

Cheers,

Aaron

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Re: Socialism question

Jager,

Then I will speak for myself, and for those who simply read here, and be a voice for them ...

We are all victims of ourselves. Rick's recent double knee operation, Aaron's education, and the service you yourself provided to your country, were all bought and paid for, either directly, or indirectly, by the tax payers of the United States, and through the resources of mostly other nations, taken either willingly, or by force.

If I am then to be seen as a majoritive member of the world who has not seen active service in the military, and to then be seen as an incumbent, then what were the reason's for such battles, offered as to the reason to fight such battles, so as to protect my way of life? Was it for services to country, or was that the lash that was extended to the backs of the many generation's of poor, or of cultural minority, who suffered mostly as the uneducated cannon fodder? Am I then as much the incumbent as those major's who never drew a sword in battle, that Siegfried Sassoon wrote of in this poem from the time of the Etaples Mutiny?

If I were fierce, and bald, and short of breath,
I’d live with scarlet Majors at the Base,
And speed glum heroes up the line to death.
You’d see me with my puffy petulant face,
Guzzling and gulping in the best hotel,
Reading the Roll of Honour. ‘Poor young chap,’
I’d say—‘I used to know his father well;
Yes, we’ve lost heavily in this last scrap.’
And when the war is done and youth stone dead,
I’d toddle safely home and die - in bed.

Elmer E. Schattschneider, notable for such works as Two Hundred Million Americans in Search of a Government (1969) is quoted as once remarking that - "The flaw in the pluralist heaven is that the heavenly choir sings with a strong, upper-class accent". With this off the cuff remark, I have wondered many times at the scale of number of our elected government, who have sent their son's or daughter's out to the battle front, dealing with the loss as many a quiet mourning family have over these past 112 years since the American Empire grew battle legs, carrying it to the beginning's of the Spanish-American War...

We all read of the nobility and honour of war among soldier's and professional personnel, but this isn't about individual human spirit, this is the bigger picture, with its over-all scale and size, which represents half of all military power on the planet to date. When indeed, does there become a reckoning on over 700 worldwide American bases, at least 40 of which cost an average of $1.5 billion dollars each, and an escalating average of $1.449 trillion dollars of tax payers money to run them per year, amounting to 54% of the 2009 income tax bill? Surely those figure's alone, stark and in the light of day, prove something of the propaganda at play, that is far beyond my simple use of phrase. Surely reason and accountability hold ground with reality?

Would that Erich Maria Remarque, the author of All Quiet on the Western Front (1928) should be compulsory reading by every would-be soldier, before they sign-up for a five year stint in the armed forces? Show me then, by what authority you'd deem yourself fit to fight for country and family, when the battle's you've played your part in held no true fear in protecting country and family, and that the war's you've fought in (many of those one sided 'wars', were not, and are not wars, but slaughter's) have created a better, or a worse world to live in; better if you and your compatriot's had stayed home and taken care of your own?

Genocide. It is a word as an explanation of the true meaning of horror in the extermination of static indigenous and migratory nations that Raphael Lemkin coined in 1944. Genocide continues through energy fuelled political means to this very day, such for the plight of many nation's of this globe, even with over 700 American bases worldwide. If, therefore, you believe such things as God in heaven exist, then read what is in this link, and tell me if there is an otherwise, or that what you fight for holds a value to the common good.

We write on this site because the world is unravelling, yet there are still those here who hold belief in what has been before, holding tightly to the tattered military threads of a dying military emblem, as though its fraying fibre will lift us up and out of this quagmire? I trust you are willing to see the contradiction and the hypocrisy? I hope that their is man enough to witness the unfolding present irony? I live in hope that some reading this will reflect back on our militarised histories, and begin to unravel that which is obvious if they study. That the very objectives that were set to protect the United States, are its desperate undoing, and that millions within its shores, and billions outside of them, will suffer the consequences of these past, present and future actions.

You can reach out and grasp theories, strategies or hypothesis on any number of certainty amounting from reasoning and logic, but none other than history as blow-back to the nature of the fall of the Berlin wall, the subsequent fall of Russia, the atomisation of Yugoslavia, with the pervading stench of genocide of weapon-less Muslim against Serb, and an American majority led United Nations, that sat on the fence, sitting on its hands for almost three years in the run up to its 1995 air-strikes; with the subsequent fall of the twin towers, and the rise and fall of Al Qaeda. All of it holds its roots through history, back to the rise of the American empire, its sunset, and what will be its historically definitive catastrophic future collapse, bringing down all of the rest of the world in one form or another, with the vacuum it leaves behind.

For every dollar in every wage packet that has paid every military post for every willing subject that believed in good and showed a willing good, a price is to be paid. That price is of the bigger picture to all the good that has been done, that has raised the number of subjects in one favoured area of the world over another, for one reason over another. Each one in turn will pay the price for its involvement to betterment, when the true relation to energy, food security, and military might are factored back into the equation through whatever 'ism' is atoned to an ideal. Capitalism is very almost capitulated, except for the shouting, biting, punching, kicking, jostling and elbowing, on a journey toward the summit of a very high cliff.

 

~ VF ~

Jager06's picture
Jager06
Status: Gold Member (Offline)
Joined: Dec 2 2009
Posts: 395
Re: Socialism question

Thank you for your selfless stand in the name of the voiceless, whom you have also crowned the majority. Well done, and in less than two complete paragraphs.

I hope you can appreciate the hubris with which you come across, poetry and all, telling us that no fight in the defense of the United States or her allies is a good fight. Well except for the times we showed up late to....ummm....the Balkans. Dang it. I bet if we had not waited for the United Nations to authorize it you would have accused us of some other form of empire building, resource theft, or genocide, instead of simply being late.

Audacious I must admit to compare me in one breath as both genocidal and unwilling to fight. I guess protecting Muslim interests in the Balkans is better than nothing, but not good enough to justify the tardiness. Have you ever wondered why the Balkan muslims all of a sudden started being attacked and killed? Perhaps a quick reference to WW2 when the balkan muslims were recruited as 2 Divisions of Hitler's SS by the Grand Mufti of the Al Aqusa Mosque could bring some of the (more recent history of) bad blood into focus. Oh, that was after the Mufti co- signed Hitler's "Final Solution". Pesky Jews, on the wrong side of history again, and all within a decade of the writing of "All quiet on the Western Front". It should have been mandatory reading then too.

I think reading and researching the religious texts and their affects on the behaviours of the adherents with some intellectual honesty would also be well served.

I do not pretend to protect your way of life, and would that responsibility was yours alone. I have not engaged in wars of conquest or genocide. Those are the perceptions of someone who has found themselves in a bad seat off the sidelines, without any clear view of the field, and has made themselves relevant by reading aloud the hype and the advertising on the back of the game program.

You do however have an excellent writing style that I do admire. Very poetic.

What I do not understand is what alternative history would be preferable? One without a human scratch or ding? Where everyone is equal, in results if not ability? I think the North Koreans have a great deal to offer on this type of result. I would submit that lack of communication with the outside does not equal the lack of pain and maniacal domination of the people inside. I would submit to you it is worse in that type of environment than in the type of environment I am currently writing to you from. The "poor" here are not starving to death, as the "workers" are in North Korea.

Is it ever in the nature of man not to abuse power? Not to self corrupt? The North Korean model, and communism started with honorable intentions and since fell, having starved to death while feasting on itself. Now that capitalism has been corrupted by socialist self flagellation in the form of punishing success, it cannot work. And so the inability of the two to meld should be blamed on capitalism alone, and not on the model that has failed so miserably, so many times past.

Pretending to be a voice for the voiceless is a wonderful way to legitimize a viewpoint that is not necessarily mainstream. Not that the mainstream is always correct, but it is at least the majority. When the majority awake to any truths that you are trying to communicate, we will see what comes of it. Like the awakening of Bankster manipulations and peak oil....the Three E's as well. I doubt in the end any of it will matter.

I am glad I do not live in your world. I don't think I could bear the shame of the liberal intellectual facade so cheaply decorating the narrow halls of thought within. When there are no resources, nothing works. Who knew?

Have a beer, lets ride off the cliff, since it is in fact now unavoidable. No use being argumentative or fingerpointing.

If it were all up to me, I would march every troop home and lock the United States in, and the rest out. No more immigration, no more treaties. We will live within our means and exploit our own resources, no more tax dollars going to educate or vaccinate or feed or protect. I think then the totality of what has been given freely compared to what has been taken would emerge. Not necessarily within the context of how you might have imagined it though. Saving 100,000 children a year from disease, malnutrition, religous intolerance is apparently not at all worth the cost of having killed one child accidentally in a war that has not seen it's enemies clearly defined for reasons of social equality.

Strange math, but I accept the premise of what you say. Do you mind looking at the math of total donations made by the United States and her citizens for the betterment of those outside our borders and make a comparison? I mean a strict body count. Dead due to our inaction (total inaction, charitable and military) vs dead due to our actions.

United States annual charitable conributions (non Government)      $303 Billion

Us Government Aid (Non Military)                                                             $351 Billion

So $650 billion in donations per year is not saving lives or having any meaningful impact for anyone on the globe except to rob their resources and lash them with the whip of the empire. FIghting enemies on their soil to protect our citizens is shameful, and I agree that the death of inncoents is disgusting. I wonder how much the North Korean are donating to global betterment...? Or China? Saudi Arabia? Hmmm.

Right. I feel so ashamed.

Have a great day!

Jager06

 

 

 

A. M.'s picture
A. M.
Status: Diamond Member (Offline)
Joined: Oct 22 2008
Posts: 2367
Re: Socialism question

Jager,

That, even as a stand alone post, is one of the most relevant, insightful and logically constructed posts I've read here in a long time.

I share your thoughts and applaud your realistic tone and delivery.

Cheers,

Aaron

Jager06's picture
Jager06
Status: Gold Member (Offline)
Joined: Dec 2 2009
Posts: 395
Re: Socialism question

Thanks Bro!

ao's picture
ao
Status: Diamond Member (Offline)
Joined: Feb 4 2009
Posts: 2220
Re: Socialism question
Aaron Moyer wrote:

Jager,

That, even as a stand alone post, is one of the most relevant, insightful and logically constructed posts I've read here in a long time.

I share your thoughts and applaud your realistic tone and delivery.

Cheers,

Aaron

Agreed 100%.  VF's post reminds me of a Mobius strip ... lots of twisting and turning but only one side and only one edge.  As I said before, they don't get it and probably never will.

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