Seriously: Any ideas on justice?

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FNKRoue's picture
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Seriously: Any ideas on justice?

The very fact, as everyone is aware here I'm sure, that all the money from the bailout is not being used appropriately and more to the fact been used near criminally has pushed some serious buttons.

 I sent out emails to all my representatives for both times the bailout hit consideration condemning it, and now here it is and this is what we reap.  Well I don't think I should have to sit back and accept it.  Anyone got some good ideas on who to and how to protest.

If there is a wagon I'm on it with pitch fork in hand.  I'm not paying $100 tax dollars for a bunch of failed banker's christmas bonus anymore than I'd pay a bonus to the doctor that misdiagnosed my best friend's seizures as casual drinking and left him with stroke induced brain damage.

 

Anyone come across some good email, phone, letter, anything movements in protest? 

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Re: Seriously: Any ideas on justice?
One thing that Peter Schiff has been calling for everyone to do is no one pay their mortgage (no one). This would send a serious message that we will not take this any longer
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Re: Seriously: Any ideas on justice?

There is also the interesting video by Aaron Russo showing that Federal income taxes are voluntary.  The risk of not paying is that you are subject to the whim of the IRS and the whether the jurors at your potential trial know, or discern for themselves, that you are in fact not guilty for not having paid. 

James

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Re: Seriously: Any ideas on justice? [Consumer 'Holiday'!]

[quote=castlewp]One thing that Peter Schiff has been calling for everyone to do is no one pay their mortgage (no one). This would send a serious message that we will not take this any longer[/quote]

If intended as a protest, that would certainly get attention - but it has the disadvantage of leaving 'footprints' (i.e. it is very easy to associate names and addresses with those involved in the social protest).  The lack of anonymity would discourage a large number of people from participating in spite of their growing discontent.

As a response for those facing exhorbitant mortgage rates following a re-adjusment in their terms (as I read Peter Schiff's statement - below -) it is probably a prudent thing to do (and the sooner the better).

[quote=Peter Schiff]If you are a mortgage holder who is either struggling with crushing payments, bitter for having overpaid for your home during the bubble, or who has extravagantly refinanced when prices were rising, the government's landmark $700 billion bailout package has an important message for you: stop making your mortgage payments . . . immediately[/quote]

If you are looking for a protest that will get attention and yet provide anonymity - why don't we all take a 'Consumer Holiday' and get 'everyone' who is angry with the Government's response pick a day where we all choose to buy absolutely 'nothing'.  Get the word out - lets get their attention in the most obvious fashion possible (and without damaging a single public or private asset).

 

Daniel

 

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Not paying taxes or mortgages

A protest using taxes or mortgages as a foundation has 2 sides.

1 is that it would be a powerful and damaging message for change, but would have it's casualties in some people getting prosecuted and jailed, but as I have said before, they cant afford to jail a large number of people, so it would cause change eventually. I also believe the first prosecuted and jailed would be released quickly when new policies are put into place, but they will want to make examples of people to scare the others. 

2 is that it would have a great effect on schools, roads, bridges etc. But are these things really in that good of shape right now to begin with? Seems to me the schools, roads, bridges and internal structures and operations are in dismal shape now, with money being put into the wrong things, like Iraq's schools, roads, bridges and internal structures.

The only reason you would do anything like this is for change, and you would need to do it on quite a large scale, say 10-15 million people, to be truly effective. The only outcome is a better direction of America internally, showing Americans still hold the power in this country, and the government works for us. We pay them and they seem to have forgotton that a long time ago.

 A lot of people here, including myself, are FURIOUS about where and how this money is being spent. It's simply immoral and deeply wrong. People are suffering, have no jobs, have no hope and have lost everything, and it's insulting to all Americans to allow this to happen.

Can you do anything else? Well, if you write your representatives, write the president or whatever, nothing ever seems to come of this. You need to get the media on this, and that seems to be the only option for change these days, media attention. But sadly, the media is owned, so I don't know how far you will get with that.

Basically, everyone in power is owned. Basically, all major media is owned. The bankers and the government in general is not stupid when it comes to being prepared for this. They have endless supplies of money, lawyers and centuries to prepare for any legal battle or uprising on a smaller scale. I don't think they are prepared as well for a large scale activity. The only things they cant protect themselves from is bank runs (any bank is vulnerable to this) tax protesting (this has never happened on a large scale since the revolution) and simply opting out, meaning getting a less tax paying job, avoiding as much money paid to the government as possible. But then the state will get you on your home taxes, sales taxes or any other thing they can think of. These taxes are also going to rise dramatically in the coming years as with just about everything else including gas and food. They know all the rules, they hold most of the power, and they are prepared for anything you do as an individual. A group effort is the only way to fight anything in America.  

Another thing that is happening is new rules are going into place or have been approved to stop any kind of talk of doing anything I have stated above, so we can talk about it now, but tomorrow even that freedom may be gone.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Re: Not paying taxes or mortgages
Thanks for your post Krogoth! I know this is just spit balling but we are truly in for some serious changes and any ideas to help bring in a new system will help.  It's amazing watching the election tonight and how all of the media is totally ignoring any third party.  It's so rigged it makes you sick.  Trying to find a solution for our future is very important and if we just sit on our hands then we are in for "change" alright.  Let's not let this happen!!
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Re: Seriously: Any ideas on justice?
[quote=James705ca]

There is also the interesting video by Aaron Russo showing that Federal income taxes are voluntary.  The risk of not paying is that you are subject to the whim of the IRS and the whether the jurors at your potential trial know, or discern for themselves, that you are in fact not guilty for not having paid. 

James

[/quote]

 

Granting credibility to Aaron Russo's fringe ideas does a disservice to Chris M. and to  the majority of the reader's of this site.  Before anyone seriously considers following Mr. Russo's advice I would recommend that they first visit http://docs.law.gwu.edu/facweb/jsiegel/Personal/taxes/F2F.htm

 

Daniel

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Mixed feelings about election

I have mixed feelings about the election. On One hand, I am happy that we still live in a country where anything can happen, even a Black president for the first time. That makes me believe in the American spirit and the things that make this country a great one.

On the other hand, I don't think it makes much of a difference at all who is president, who is in power and who pulls the strings because it will be business as usual. Sure, we may get a couple of bones thrown our way to keep as content, but that's about all.

No single man or woman can make the true changes we need in this country. It will take a massive amount of the population to make change, and that's the only way.

Lets look at the major issues-

Healthcare-Probably never will happen in an affordable fashion, and if it does, it will be BS Third world type healthcare for the masses, with the rich getting premium healthcare.
Economy-Wow, what president has ever faced this level of crap. Never in history. And both candidates are poor at economics.
Taxes- Tax breaks here and there, who cares? Tax breaks don't mean jobs. Punishing companies out of business with taxes if they don't employ and locate in America makes jobs. Can't save on taxes if you don't have a job to pay taxes. And how are ANY of us going to be able to afford the massive tax tidal wave coming our way? 
Environment and Energy-This is a repeated issue nobody in government cares about. Even if they talk about it, they do nothing about it. Alternative Energy solutions will be squashed, unaffordable or impossible as long as companies like Exxon-Mobil and cartels like OPEC exist. We will always be dependant on oil in some fashion.
Education- What president ever has put education first or has done anything to improve education in the United States on a large scale? I can't remember any. Our educators should be treated like Kings and Queens.
Homeland Security- Another joke put into place to remove our freedoms and scare us to death at the same time.

Lots of other issues, but basically a broken record playing over and over, year after year with a few new things thrown in like homeland security, terrorism, stupid wars (or police actions) it's the same tune with different faces.

 

 


 

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Re: Mixed feelings about election

[quote]Healthcare-Probably never will happen in an affordable fashion, and if it does, it will be BS Third world type healthcare for the masses, with the rich getting premium healthcare.[/quote]

Plenty of governments have implemented better health care than exists in the United States.  Better meaning:  Less cost per capita, more healthy citizens overall.  There are any number of easy ways to improve our system.   Not the least of which would be reintroducing regulations requiring that medical devices prove a meaningful medical benefit.   Other changes would be:

* Revising drug patent laws to reduce 'reformulation' and other absurdities used to extend patent length without providing any improvements.

* Require that new drugs show themselves superior not to placebos, but to existing and well established drugs.  (New painkillers need to show they are better than asprin).

* Establish rules requiring that drugs provide more than statistical significance, but also provide relevantly large effects. 

And any slew of additional changes.

I'll note that medical changes will definitely happen.  Why?  Because if the next president and congress doesn't fix our medical system then, much like the housing bubble burst, our medical structure will collapse and then be rebuilt in a way that does.  Remember, just like houses, medical costs must logically be proportionate to income.

[quote]Economy-Wow, what president has ever faced this level of crap. Never in history. And both candidates are poor at economics. [/quote] 

There have been a number of severe economic situations that past presidents and other world leaders have faced.  While the scale of this one is spectacular, it is hardly new.   Better yet, we actually have good idea of things we need to do:

* Rebuild infrastructure

* Shift to alternate/renewable energies

* Fix the medical cost bubble. 

Just having a basic list helps a lot.   Plus, being in debt isn't, in the end the problem of the guy in debt.  Its the problem of the guy who is owed the debt.

[quote]
Taxes- Tax breaks here and there, who cares? Tax breaks don't mean jobs. Punishing companies out of business with taxes if they don't employ and locate in America makes jobs. Can't save on taxes if you don't have a job to pay taxes. And how are ANY of us going to be able to afford the massive tax tidal wave coming our way? [/quote]

Taxes are mostly meaningless.  Higher, lower, the money taken just gets shoved right back into the economy once again.  What matters is how tax policy redistributes labor resources.

[quote]Environment and Energy-This is a repeated issue nobody in government cares about. Even if they talk about it, they do nothing about it. Alternative Energy solutions will be squashed, unaffordable or impossible as long as companies like Exxon-Mobil and cartels like OPEC exist. We will always be dependant on oil in some fashion.[/quote]

Wrong.  There are plenty who care.  If there were not, we wouldn't have the EPA, the clean air act, and hundreds of other environmental laws.  These were put in place, and still enforced, by government action.  They have also done more to fix environmental issues than every awareness campaign in all of history, on all of the earth, combined.

I'd also point out that President Carter did a lot to fix our energy policy.   His changes, however, were dismantled by the next administration.

[quote]Education- What president ever has put education first or has done anything to improve education in the United States on a large scale? I can't remember any. Our educators should be treated like Kings and Queens.[/quote] 

Then how, pray tell, do you think we ended up with a public education system?  A government responding to the people that's what.

[quote]Homeland Security- Another joke put into place to remove our freedoms and scare us to death at the same time.
[/quote]

Agreed.  It even sounds Stalin/Hitler esque.

 

To sum it up Krogoth, we have passed through an era of voter apathy, self delusion, skewed priorities, and other such aspects within our population as a whole.   The economic downturn, a rising blatantness of global warming,  depleted resources, etc... are only going to become increasingly apparent.   America has passed through several such periods of political corruption and absurdity before, only to make sharp turns for decades where the government takes handle of its problems and actually fixes them.  This will be no different.

Whether the next administration will break down the wall of 3 decades of inaction, who knows.  I'd say however, that the weight of reality is more than likely to press the next administration to roll up the sleeves and do some real work for once.

--

Steve

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responses
[quote=srbarbour]

[quote]Healthcare-Probably never will happen in an affordable fashion, and if it does, it will be BS Third world type healthcare for the masses, with the rich getting premium healthcare.[/quote]

Plenty of governments have implemented better health care than exists in the United States.  Better meaning:  Less cost per capita, more healthy citizens overall.  There are any number of easy ways to improve our system.   Not the least of which would be reintroducing regulations requiring that medical devices prove a meaningful medical benefit.   Other changes would be:

* Revising drug patent laws to reduce 'reformulation' and other absurdities used to extend patent length without providing any improvements.

* Require that new drugs show themselves superior not to placebos, but to existing and well established drugs.  (New painkillers need to show they are better than asprin).

* Establish rules requiring that drugs provide more than statistical significance, but also provide relevantly large effects. 

And any slew of additional changes.

I'll note that medical changes will definitely happen.  Why?  Because if the next president and congress doesn't fix our medical system then, much like the housing bubble burst, our medical structure will collapse and then be rebuilt in a way that does.  Remember, just like houses, medical costs must logically be proportionate to income.

 

I disagree- You are talking about too much business- The Hospitals, the drug manafacturers and insurance will never allow resonable healthcare for all. They don't make money this way.

[quote]Economy-Wow, what president has ever faced this level of crap. Never in history. And both candidates are poor at economics. [/quote] 

There have been a number of severe economic situations that past presidents and other world leaders have faced.  While the scale of this one is spectacular, it is hardly new.   Better yet, we actually have good idea of things we need to do:

* Rebuild infrastructure

* Shift to alternate/renewable energies

* Fix the medical cost bubble. 

Just having a basic list helps a lot.   Plus, being in debt isn't, in the end the problem of the guy in debt.  Its the problem of the guy who is owed the debt.

[quote]
Taxes- Tax breaks here and there, who cares? Tax breaks don't mean jobs. Punishing companies out of business with taxes if they don't employ and locate in America makes jobs. Can't save on taxes if you don't have a job to pay taxes. And how are ANY of us going to be able to afford the massive tax tidal wave coming our way? [/quote]

Taxes are mostly meaningless.  Higher, lower, the money taken just gets shoved right back into the economy once again.  What matters is how tax policy redistributes labor resources.

[quote]Environment and Energy-This is a repeated issue nobody in government cares about. Even if they talk about it, they do nothing about it. Alternative Energy solutions will be squashed, unaffordable or impossible as long as companies like Exxon-Mobil and cartels like OPEC exist. We will always be dependant on oil in some fashion.[/quote]

Wrong.  There are plenty who care.  If there were not, we wouldn't have the EPA, the clean air act, and hundreds of other environmental laws.  These were put in place, and still enforced, by government action.  They have also done more to fix environmental issues than every awareness campaign in all of history, on all of the earth, combined.

I'd also point out that President Carter did a lot to fix our energy policy.   His changes, however, were dismantled by the next administration.

I disagree again- I stated this towards the GOVERNMENT, not so much the people.

[quote]Education- What president ever has put education first or has done anything to improve education in the United States on a large scale? I can't remember any. Our educators should be treated like Kings and Queens.[/quote] 

Then how, pray tell, do you think we ended up with a public education system?  A government responding to the people that's what.

The government's response was weak and always has been. Edecutaion should be a priority issue in America, and paid and treated as one of the most important issues.

[quote]Homeland Security- Another joke put into place to remove our freedoms and scare us to death at the same time.
[/quote]

Agreed.  It even sounds Stalin/Hitler esque.

 

To sum it up Krogoth, we have passed through an era of voter apathy, self delusion, skewed priorities, and other such aspects within our population as a whole.   The economic downturn, a rising blatantness of global warming,  depleted resources, etc... are only going to become increasingly apparent.   America has passed through several such periods of political corruption and absurdity before, only to make sharp turns for decades where the government takes handle of its problems and actually fixes them.  This will be no different.

Whether the next administration will break down the wall of 3 decades of inaction, who knows.  I'd say however, that the weight of reality is more than likely to press the next administration to roll up the sleeves and do some real work for once.

--

Steve

[/quote]
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Re: Seriously: Any ideas on justice?

Daniel,

Thanks for the important correction.  Makes me wonder why Google didn't post your link, or other disclaimer, where they host the video but obviously I should have done more research myself on the topic.  I'm still glad to have seen the remainder of Aaron Russo's video discussing the Federal Reserve and threats to civil liberties.  I didn't mean a disservice to Chris and the community he has created and for this I apologise.

For independent reasons from the video (ideas that originated from the books Natural Capitalism and Creating a World Without Poverty) I do believe that what you tax you get less of and what you subsidize you get too much of.  Labor is our greatest renewal resource and taxing labor discourages working while welfare encourages not working.  For similar reasons minimum wage may prevent people from taking jobs that don't pay well but do provide room and board.  (I've heard of an anecdotal story of a farmer who hired a homeless man who worked happily for little more than room and board - however the farmer was confronted with the legal requirements of minimum wage - and the person was let go and became homeless again.)

Many people in the hard economic times ahead will find that the system doesn't need their skills - but they will still possess the same skills, the potential to acquire new skills, and the ability to work just as they did the day before they were laid off.  With a great number of displaced workers there will be a painful transition to find new work.  Raising taxes on those that work and providing welfare to those that don't would seem to be the obvious solutions - but both are actually counter productive. 

Please see my post here http://www.peakprosperity.com/comment/4138#comment-4138 for my suggestion that small diversified farms may be a place where available labor can and should be applied.  However, people will need to actively seek out this solution and appreciate that minimum wage may be a barrier to a sustainable life .  I'm not sure how to get around this - to rent a portion of a farmer's land while paying for room and board and be an entrepreneur in farming that portion of the land?

The replacement for taxes on labor?  Natural Capitalism recommends taxing externalities like pollution and eliminating subsidies for unsustainable resource extraction and unsustainable agricultural practices.

All the best,

James

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Re: Seriously: Any ideas on justice?

[quote=castlewp]One thing that Peter Schiff has been calling for everyone to do is no one pay their mortgage (no one). This would send a serious message that we will not take this any longer[/quote]

WOW....  and I thought I was the only extremist on the planet!  I have been advocating this too in Australia.  Not just mortgages, but credit cards as well...

When you realise that the current debts can never be repaid, what is the point in pretending that they can?

Bring on the jubilee...

Mike. 

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Re: Not paying taxes or mortgages

[quote=castlewp]Thanks for your post Krogoth! I know this is just spit balling but we are truly in for some serious changes <SNIP> [/quote]

Like canceling all debts...?

Mike 

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Re: Seriously: Any ideas on justice?

Let me chime in with an insiders view on this thing: (working within government)

The government at just about every level has become a huge intertwined, convoluted, distorted, and whatever other term you can think of, mis-representation of the people it is supposed to serve.  People in politics do not serve there, they work there.  Make no mistake about the difference.  Anyone, however noble in their intentions, who manages to enter the world of big government will in a very short time be educated in the ways of the system.  

Within Krogoth's commentary is one key statement:   "... It will be business as usual ..."

And that my friends is what we have to look forward to.

That said, it's now time to quit complaining about how things are, and start taking care of what needs to be done to use this mess to our own advantages.  What? Am I advocating taking advantage of a bad situation? YES I AM!  Because if we don't, the people who put us in this mess to begin with will take even more advantage of us.

Best of luck to the masses!

Bob

PS.  Speaking to the title of this post, the justice comes in taking the rules that the other guy wrote for himself, and using them to win the game despite the stacked deck.  I do it every day in the judicial system! 

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Re: Seriously: Any ideas on justice?

the theory that you can legally not pay income tax traces to the process of ratifying the 16th ammendment.

ohio was technically not a state at the time. the way states became members of the union was somewhat loose at the time.

the correction was made after the ratification of the 16 th amendmant.

personally i would not want to get my ass in the sling of the feds slingshot on those legal grounds

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That is why

That is why it cannot work unless it's done on a large scale. Just the organization of this would be considered an illegal act I believe.

 

 

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