Scenario: Implosion, Collapse, & Liberation

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Scenario: Implosion, Collapse, & Liberation

1. A worldwide crisis of confidence exists.

2. This is due to the absence of Liberty, especially the absence of the Gold Standard.  The 'money' is corrupt. The economic and financial numbers mean nothing.  People no longer trust each other.  Reasonable risks are avoided.  Production, exchange--and consumption--are reduced.

3. But everyone pays taxes. Therefore, everyone says: "I've paid the Government; now let the Government pay me."    Everyone who is hurting petitions the Government for assistance/subsidies/bailouts.

4. The Government "must do something."  Government bails out everyone--with more bogus 'money' created out of thin air.

5. Hyperinflation results.  Confidence is reduced further.  Production, exchange--and consumption--are reduced further. 

6. Again, the Government "must do something."  Martial law is imposed. 

7. Confidence is reduced still further.  Production, exchange--and consumption--are severely curtailed.

8. Everyone panics.  Even the police and the military no longer obey orders (fortunately),.

9. The political systems of the world collapse.  Two and a half millennia of political and economic contradictions--from Plato to Machiavelli to Hobbes to The Founding Fathers to Keynes to contemporary creatures who are too numerous and too odious to name--have come full circle and have utterly failed.

10  The human race is finally freed from the lethal curse of Government--if the ultimate Government contradiction can be avoided--if the jackass politicians and mad militarists can keep their fingers off the nuclear buttons--and if people understand what caused the original crisis of confidence, and then vow never to make the same mistakes again.

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The Blank Slate

Americans should FORTHWITH stop all payments on mortgages, car loans and credit cards.

Bring the banks to their knees and renegotiate/cancel all debts.

BLANK SLATE.

Start again.  Sustainably this time........ 

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Re: The Blank Slate

And what about taxes? That brings the government to it's knees.

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Re: Scenario: Implosion, Collapse, & Liberation

I wish we had some of the boxes you get when you renew your drivers license on our 1040's. Wink You know what I mean - the 'do you want to contribute to 'x' program', etc. If they listed all the federally subsidized programs and had a checkbox next to it and you could decide where your money went - how democratic is that?! You could either:

A) support each program only with the $$ given through taxes paid by supporting individuals

B) Support only the programs that had majority vote. I'm not sure how you would determine a cap on where something loses 'majority' (other than to say anything that gets over 50% votes in favor of support)

I've always complained that if given the choice, there are certain programs I think should be funded directly if an individual wishes to. Not forced upon us by tax dollars. (Yes, I *am* a registered Libertarian) If the majority of folks really think the NEA should be funded with tax dollars, so be it. I for one, would give it up and let the rich that can enjoy that sort of thing continue to give the money they do.

Damnthematrix - I wish we could get enough folks to do just that. Unfortunately most of us (myself included) are too scared to without some serious backup. A small town's worth of people in a small-population state doing it, for example, wouldn't make as much of an impact as say - the whole of L.A. or NYC suddenly grinding the system to a halt. Could you imagine that?! People would jump on that bandwagon post-haste. It'd be great.  

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Re: Scenario: Implosion, Collapse, & Liberation

Politician wasn't always a dirty word.

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Re: Scenario: Implosion, Collapse, & Liberation

Could you imagine that?! People would jump on that bandwagon post-haste. It'd be great.  

yep i could imagine it . but make sure you have plenty of food and water and alternative power if necessary, also do not forget the meds THEY  will shut everything off.

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Re: Scenario: Implosion, Collapse, & Liberation

Bring the banks to their knees and renegotiate/cancel all debts.

True story. I called Citibank recently to cancel my credit card. When I
told the operator of my intentions, she passed my call on to someone
else. Well, I couldn't get this guy to take cancel for an answer. Every
time I said "cancel the card," he offered a lower interest rate. If I
said "no negotations," he offered a lower interest rate. When I told
him I was losing my patience, he offered a lower interest rate. When he
talked, I talked over him. It might have been ten minutes of this
before he agreed to cancel the card. One important thing to remember:
always aske for a letter of cancellation. These people are known to
leave accounts open, leaving you vulnerable to identity theft. These
banks are getting desperate and we know they have no scruples.

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Re: Scenario: Implosion, Collapse, & Liberation

What about the disable, the police, the hospitals that are paid with taxed money?   What about all those people that work in banks and the people that depend on the money from people that work on all those financial institutions?   What about all those that are doing Ok because they got ready for this long time ago?   

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Re: The Blank Slate

Damnthematrix said:

Americans should FORTHWITH stop all payments on mortgages, car loans and credit cards.


Bring the banks to their knees and renegotiate/cancel all debts.

While I agree with the sentiment, I can't agree with your solution.  You signed a contract agreeing to the interest and payback, so it would be against your word to simply stop paying and demand renegotiation.

Richard

 

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Re: The Blank Slate
rmurfster wrote:

Damnthematrix said:

Americans should FORTHWITH stop all payments on mortgages, car loans and credit cards.


Bring the banks to their knees and renegotiate/cancel all debts.

While I agree with the sentiment, I can't agree with your solution. You signed a contract agreeing to the interest and payback, so it would be against your word to simply stop paying and demand renegotiation.

Richard

You can't be serious.......

Isn't there also an underlying contract, when you sign the mortgage documents, that there will actually be a working economy lying around, so that you can extort the necessary funds and resources to actually make the repayments? 

Sorry, but as far as I am concerned, the Matrix has broken its underlying contract, all bets are off.  Time to REBOOT! 

Mike 

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Re: Scenario: Implosion, Collapse, & Liberation

Hi emdiaz.....

Some weeks ago, I started a thread called "what if".  You could search for it  Maybe it could be restarted, just like this one  miraculously has....

That scenario went like this:

WE ALL stop paying taxes and debt repayments.  I know this is thinking outside the Matrix, but I believe the time has come to start thinking on completely new terms.  Today is not like yesterday.  IS IT!?  Just bear with me.....

THEN, we continue doing the things we all do, for NOTHING.  No pay.  Without debts and taxes, who needs money?  We already have everything we need, even everything we want!  WE on this site all agree we can't continue growing (right?) so we continue without growth.  We could all probably get along with 'working'  at our old jobs for a day or two a week, whilst we enjoy the leisure time and grow our own food and tinker in the basement fixing things that break instead of throwing them away for new ones...

So, if you're pumping gas at the local station, for free, GIVE THE GAS AWAY EVEN, knowing that at the end of the day, you have done your bit and walk into a shop and TAKE what you need to survive another day in some sort of comfort.

You could visit the doctor for free....  because he/she knows the mechanic will service his/her Merc for nothing....

With a much slower pace (working just a day or two) consumption of everything (even food I surmise!) would slow right down

In the 'what if' thread, I was told that there would be people who would abuse the system.  So I ask, is that not the case now?  It's also often said that people like me who strive for self sufficiency will one day be raided by the starving, people who do not pull their weight.  Everyone seems to thing that 'the bad people' will have a hold on us 'the good people'.  I've been thinking about this....  a lot in fact as I build another fence in an attempt to contain our ducks from attacks by wildlife and neighbors' dogs...

Why could WE not have a hold on them?  I rather like to think we outnumber bad people.  If they are not willing to play the new world order, they don't get fed, they don't get to see the doctor, they get NOTHING.....

Now I realise all this ain't gonna happen overnight.  It'll take a lot of organising.  But the future is going to be a lot of hard work.  And the future starts today.......

Depressions/recessions are only about money.  Take the money out of the equation, and I propose that the whole thing could fix itself... 

Discuss.

Mike 

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Re: The Blank Slate
Damnthematrix wrote:
rmurfster wrote:

Damnthematrix said:

Americans should FORTHWITH stop all payments on mortgages, car loans and credit cards.


Bring the banks to their knees and renegotiate/cancel all debts.

While I agree with the sentiment, I can't agree with your solution. You signed a contract agreeing to the interest and payback, so it would be against your word to simply stop paying and demand renegotiation.

Richard

You can't be serious.......

Isn't there also an underlying contract, when you sign the mortgage documents, that there will actually be a working economy lying around, so that you can extort the necessary funds and resources to actually make the repayments? 

Sorry, but as far as I am concerned, the Matrix has broken its underlying contract, all bets are off.  Time to REBOOT! 

Mike 

 

Mike,

I have to agree with murfster on this one. While it sounds appealing to you that there be major reboot (because you have already removed yourself from the grid), the majority of us are in a different situation and it would not serve us well if society at large did a major reboot.

When I had my little house built (1600 sq. ft.) in 2003, I made a contract with the builder and my local bank. My ethics require me to pay the debt that was loaned to me in good faith. I don't care what the rest of the banking industry is doing - I made a deal and, come hell or high water, I plan to honor it. It has nothing to do with whether "...there will actually be a working economy lying around...". As long as I can obtain the funds from somewhere, I will pay on my mortgage. Of course, if my bank went belly up, and there was no one left to pay the mortgage to, then that would be a different story.

When I lived in California in the 90's, I was upside down on my mortgage for many years. It never once occurred to me during that time to walk away from my obligation and I am dismayed at the attitude in this country that seems to think it's become an acceptable practice. BTW, in time my mortgage "righted itself" and I was able to sell my house at a small profit.

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Re: The Blank Slate
SamLinder wrote:

Mike,

I have to agree with murfster on this one. While it sounds appealing to you that there be major reboot (because you have already removed yourself from the grid), the majority of us are in a different situation and it would not serve us well if society at large did a major reboot.

When I had my little house built (1600 sq. ft.) in 2003, I made a contract with the builder and my local bank. My ethics require me to pay the debt that was loaned to me in good faith. I don't care what the rest of the banking industry is doing - I made a deal and, come hell or high water, I plan to honor it. It has nothing to do with whether "...there will actually be a working economy lying around...". As long as I can obtain the funds from somewhere, I will pay on my mortgage. Of course, if my bank went belly up, and there was no one left to pay the mortgage to, then that would be a different story.

When I lived in California in the 90's, I was upside down on my mortgage for many years. It never once occurred to me during that time to walk away from my obligation and I am dismayed at the attitude in this country that seems to think it's become an acceptable practice. BTW, in time my mortgage "righted itself" and I was able to sell my house at a small profit.

Sam....  you make the classic mistake of ignoring the BIG PICTURE.

The current debt can NEVER be repaid.   Now I've mentioned this many times in the many posts I've generated, but there does seem to be an awful lot of new readers here, and most of the oldies have dropped off the perch, so I will re-iterate why I think the way I do.

To pay the interest on any debt, much cash needs to be printed.  To justify all this new cash, economic growth is imperative, this is why the PTB constantly insist we have to have growth, and consternation abounds when it disappears....  such as now.  I believe we have hit the limits to growth, by and large.  IF demand for oil returns, it will spiral back up, and another crash will occur.  This may happen, maybe even several times, I don't know.  But one thing I'm certain of, is that business as usual is finished.

With BAU all done for, paying off debts becomes immaterail really.  We need a new Matrix.  Have you seen this:  http://www.peakprosperity.com/forum/peak-capitalism/11165

Mike 

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The End of Capitalism?
The End of Capitalism?

By Ann Robertson

January 05, 2009 "

Information Clearinghouse" -- -The collective consciousness of the U.S. working class is on the brink of a profound transformation.
We grew up being told that capitalism was the best of all possible
systems, with apparent confirmation being supplied by the fall of the
Soviet Union. But we are now entering a new reality that has the
potential to overturn all the old, established assumptions perhaps, in
the final analysis, even to overturn capitalism itself.
<MORE>
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the end of capitalism

Another excerpt from the article in my last post above.. 

The Solution

Socialism is
predicated on the premise that in order for society to operate in the
interests of the majority, everyone must have both a voice and vote in
democratically determining its direction. Instead of the economy being
owned by a wealthy elite who run it entirely in their own interests
while impoverishing billions of people around the world and destroying
the environment, it would be placed in public hands. And its basic
operating framework would then be determined by a public discussion,
with all the relevant information available, followed by a debate and
vote. In this way, the economy could be steered onto an entirely
rational foundation so that its ability to serve the interests of ALL
members of society would be maximized coupled with the recognition that
our collective interests can only be served when the environment, which
nurtures and sustains us, is healthy and vibrant.

Such a
revolutionary transformation would represent a tremendous moral advance
for humanity: the impulses of individual self-interest and greed would
be replaced by a conscious commitment to defend the interests of
everyone. Instead of the weak and frail being cast by the wayside to
fend for themselves, society would redouble its efforts to ensure that
their needs, too, were properly addressed. Instead of living by the
uninspiring dictum, “Everyone for him or herself,” we would embrace the
principle, “An injury to one is an injury to all” because, in the final
analysis, the well-being of each individual is bound by millions of
invisible threads to the well-being of all others.

Conclusion

The
stakes are high. The U.S. working class will be reevaluating everything
in these next years, and in particular the nature of the capitalist
economy which runs most efficiently when wages and benefits are at rock
bottom, or when workers can be replaced by machines and when
unemployment is high. Although workers might not succeed in
overthrowing capitalism during this profound economic crisis, their
consciousness will emerge transformed. Capitalism will never again
enjoy their unquestioning loyalty. If this crisis does not prove to be
the end of capitalism, it will be the beginning of the end.

Ann Robertson is a writer for Workers Action (www.workerscompass.org), and can be reached at [email protected]

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Re: The Blank Slate
Damnthematrix wrote:
SamLinder wrote:

Mike,

I have to agree with murfster on this one. While it sounds appealing to you that there be major reboot (because you have already removed yourself from the grid), the majority of us are in a different situation and it would not serve us well if society at large did a major reboot.

When I had my little house built (1600 sq. ft.) in 2003, I made a contract with the builder and my local bank. My ethics require me to pay the debt that was loaned to me in good faith. I don't care what the rest of the banking industry is doing - I made a deal and, come hell or high water, I plan to honor it. It has nothing to do with whether "...there will actually be a working economy lying around...". As long as I can obtain the funds from somewhere, I will pay on my mortgage. Of course, if my bank went belly up, and there was no one left to pay the mortgage to, then that would be a different story.

When I lived in California in the 90's, I was upside down on my mortgage for many years. It never once occurred to me during that time to walk away from my obligation and I am dismayed at the attitude in this country that seems to think it's become an acceptable practice. BTW, in time my mortgage "righted itself" and I was able to sell my house at a small profit.

Sam....  you make the classic mistake of ignoring the BIG PICTURE.

The current debt can NEVER be repaid.   Now I've mentioned this many times in the many posts I've generated, but there does seem to be an awful lot of new readers here, and most of the oldies have dropped off the perch, so I will re-iterate why I think the way I do.

To pay the interest on any debt, much cash needs to be printed.  To justify all this new cash, economic growth is imperative, this is why the PTB constantly insist we have to have growth, and consternation abounds when it disappears....  such as now.  I believe we have hit the limits to growth, by and large.  IF demand for oil returns, it will spiral back up, and another crash will occur.  This may happen, maybe even several times, I don't know.  But one thing I'm certain of, is that business as usual is finished.

With BAU all done for, paying off debts becomes immaterail really.  We need a new Matrix.  Have you seen this:  http://www.peakprosperity.com/forum/peak-capitalism/11165

Mike 

Mike,

[Have you seen this:  http://www.peakprosperity.com/forum/peak-capitalism/11165]

Yes I have and it's very interesting. However, you and I are talking at different levels past each other. Regardless of the state of the BIG PICTURE, my ethical standard is that I honor my debts - period. The only way that I will default on a debt that I incurred in good faith will be as mentioned above - that the entity that I owe money to disappears and the debt thereby ceases to exist as there is no one to pay it to.

The current debt can NEVER be repaid.

This statement may well be true - but my debt can, and will, be repaid.

Even though you insist our current societal system is going to come crashing down on our heads at any minute, I choose not to believe that it will all disappear in an instant puff of smoke. Things may well get worse before they get better but society will survive in one form or another. I'm perfectly willing to accept that your agricultural lifestyle may become the new norm some day but, until that happens, I'll have to keep on keeping on.  Wink

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Re: Scenario: Implosion, Collapse, & Liberation

Damnthematrix you made me laugh. 

I am ready for the changes since I have more than what we need even if my friends think that I don't have enough. My husband will have a very hard time because he still hopeful that this will only last until mid 2010.  I cannot tell him that times are bad and that I am ready for whatever will happen. He was OK with me having a garden and learning many skills because in his head I was saving money but inflation or the system changes will greatly destroy him.  He mind can only go as far as that people are losing there houses and that means that they are losing all that money that they paid on interest. His brain can and will not even consider thinking that a lot of those people will be homeless and will not have food to feed their kids.  For my husband capitalism is the best because for him as for millions of people it represents private property and free market.  I just know that the cloud of depression will be around for a while and there is no enough Prozac to take care of the next 20 years.  In the meantime we have 3 acres farm 4 hours from my house that I will move in spring to start working on it. I have collected many fruit trees and seed but I need to study the land, sun and water before I plant anything but that is another subject.

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Re: Scenario: Implosion, Collapse, & Liberation

I have a few words to say on the subject of this BLANK SLATE:

It seems to me that many people are tempted to envision the destruction of our societal structures as a great levelling force which will lead to a simpler, more placid future where people live together peacefully, and share what they have in an egalitarian manner.

The religious and cultural heritage of the West embraces the mythic idea of a great fall, then cleansing by fire, followed by a rebirth in a new and better form.  I have spoken with many people, and particularly among those who are religious, this vague idea of a "purification by fire" followed by a rebirth is a recurring theme in many people's thinking on the subject of an economic crash, or revolution.  Well, they could be right, but careful examination of all the revolutions and collapses in recorded history seems to show that there is very little that is just about the outcome of such times.  People are killed arbitrarily, revolutionary governments become despotic and draconian, people become brutal and less charitable, local strongmen emerge who extort their neighbors, and it is only much later that things begin to improve.  The problem is that once the normal restraints that hold human behavior in check are gone, its pretty hard to get a revolution to stop.

In the case of revolution, it doesn't matter if you have formed a small community.  Entire counties will be extorted for the supplies they need.  Not necessarily physical violence, but costs of everything will be high, including lifesaving medecine, and those who mediate the supply of such things will feel entitled to their cut.   

Look at virtually every revolution in history, and what do you find?  Brutality, butchery, terror, that goes on and on.  Look at the democratic revolution in France.  The Terror became an institution.

America revolted against Britain, but we did so with our local governmental structures fully intact.  Our own internal leaders were not overthrown, which made for an internally peaceful "revolution."  The power we were rebelling against was foreign.  It was essentially as though one nation were fighting another nation.  This ability to preserve our local government was key.

Now take Shay's Rebellion.  My own town happens to have played a key part in that little pre-Constitutional episode.  Even though the Massachusetts state militia soundly crushed the rebellion, the local leaders were shaken.  Afterward, the local legislatures passed laws nullifying most of the debts of the people.  A very happy outcome for the farmers.

So the thing to do, it seems to me, is not to smash the system and create two decades of revolutionary misery.  Our basic democratic tradition is good.  We merely have to wrest some power back out of the hands of the federal government and place it back where it was: into the hands of the state and towns --closer to the people -- so that government will be more responsive to the people once again, and all the things that the people wish to accomplish can be accomplished. 

But democracy is a very fragile thing.  If you smash the system entirely, peace and tranquility is the last thing you will get.

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Re: Scenario: Implosion, Collapse, & Liberation

Wow, I must say that the only people who made any sense to me on this post is jrf29 and Sam; some of you, I think, are amoral and the rest of you are dreaming if you think there can be any of the new world scenarios you envision without massive suffering and bloodshed. Unless you are squirreled away, far far away, self-sufficient and well-armed, the utopian dreams I read here will be anything but. Let's face it, civility is but a thin veneer.

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Re: The Blank Slate

Just a question for you?  Did they loan you the Money?  Or did they create it out of thin air creating what they call New Money. 

They created the money.  

I agree if you have a contract and someone loans you something and you are supposed to repay it with interest for the use of it. 

But When the original contract is fradulent and they did not loan you money but created it and expect you to pay it back with interest and they have nothing at risk. 

What is the deal. 

They loaned you their credit and they want to get your assets for free.   

 

 

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Re: The Blank Slate
SamLinder wrote:

Mike,

I have to agree with murfster on this one. While it sounds appealing to you that there be major reboot (because you have already removed yourself from the grid), the majority of us are in a different situation and it would not serve us well if society at large did a major reboot.

When I had my little house built (1600 sq. ft.) in 2003, I made a contract with the builder and my local bank. My ethics require me to pay the debt that was loaned to me in good faith. I don't care what the rest of the banking industry is doing - I made a deal and, come hell or high water, I plan to honor it. It has nothing to do with whether "...there will actually be a working economy lying around...". As long as I can obtain the funds from somewhere, I will pay on my mortgage. Of course, if my bank went belly up, and there was no one left to pay the mortgage to, then that would be a different story.

When I lived in California in the 90's, I was upside down on my mortgage for many years. It never once occurred to me during that time to walk away from my obligation and I am dismayed at the attitude in this country that seems to think it's become an acceptable practice. BTW, in time my mortgage "righted itself" and I was able to sell my house at a small profit.

Sam, you are making the classic categorical imperative approach.  The classic example is one where a person follows his ethical inclination to never lie, yet, when he is approached by the Nazis and asked if he is hiding any Jews, should the man stand by his maxim?  I say no.

You are making an agreement under a shady deal.  It's like saying... "Look, I made a deal to the Crack Dealer (while undercover) to pay him back the money he loaned me.  So I'm going to pay him back!"

I realize the above examples do not reflect perfect analogies but what people are trying to show you is that you are still that battered woman who will justify her husband's blows by saying that "we made a deal at the alter: "for better or for worse". It's definitely worse.

I do have to give you A LOT of credit to your amazing ethical or moral compass.  You are the kind of person that many should emulate.

 

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Re: The Blank Slate
caroline_culbert wrote:
SamLinder wrote:

Mike,

I have to agree with murfster on this one. While it sounds appealing to you that there be major reboot (because you have already removed yourself from the grid), the majority of us are in a different situation and it would not serve us well if society at large did a major reboot.

When I had my little house built (1600 sq. ft.) in 2003, I made a contract with the builder and my local bank. My ethics require me to pay the debt that was loaned to me in good faith. I don't care what the rest of the banking industry is doing - I made a deal and, come hell or high water, I plan to honor it. It has nothing to do with whether "...there will actually be a working economy lying around...". As long as I can obtain the funds from somewhere, I will pay on my mortgage. Of course, if my bank went belly up, and there was no one left to pay the mortgage to, then that would be a different story.

When I lived in California in the 90's, I was upside down on my mortgage for many years. It never once occurred to me during that time to walk away from my obligation and I am dismayed at the attitude in this country that seems to think it's become an acceptable practice. BTW, in time my mortgage "righted itself" and I was able to sell my house at a small profit.

Sam, you are making the classic categorical imperative approach.  The classic example is one where a person follows his ethical inclination to never lie, yet, when he is approached by the Nazis and asked if he is hiding any Jews, should the man stand by his maxim?  I say no.

 

In this specific case, I would also say no - although I think this is quite a different scenario than what we were discussing. It's easy to be ethical when it hurts no one else - I would gladly toss my ethics right out the window if it was necessary to lie to protect the life of another innocent person.

You are making an agreement under a shady deal.  It's like saying... "Look, I made a deal to the Crack Dealer (while undercover) to pay him back the money he loaned me.  So I'm going to pay him back!"

I realize the above examples do not reflect perfect analogies but what
people are trying to show you is that you are still that battered woman
who will justify her husband's blows by saying that "we made a deal at
the alter: "for better or for worse". It's definitely worse. 

Caroline, let's be clear about the circumstances here. In 2003 I went to a mortgage broker and borrowed some money to buy a house from a builder. In return for my electronic stack of FRN's, the builder relinquished a house to me. I now have possession of the property. The mortgage broker then turned around and sold my mortgage to a bank which took possession of my promise to pay. At this point, I have made a legal (and, to me, moral) compact with the bank. They allowed me to use their funds (even though we now know they were created out of thin air) for the next 15 years. In return, I promised to pay 5.5% interest on the money - a reasonable deal as far as I'm concerned. It's been this way since I was born - why would I think there was anything wrong with it?

Now, what part of this compact conveys the impression that I'm a "battered woman" or that I've made a shady deal with a "Crack Dealer"? The bank is not abusing me. The bank did not lie to me. I am not unhappy with my agreement. (Maybe the bank doesn't really love me - but I guess I can live with that. Wink) Just because you and I are dismayed with the realization that banks create money out of thin air doesn't change the basic facts in play here.

Are you in agreement with DamnTheMatrix - that I, and all others that owe money to banks and other lending institutions, should just abrogate our agreements today and walk away? Not only would that destroy all faith in everyone's word, it would also crash the financial system immediately. If you think we have problems now, I truly believe that DamnTheMatrix's call to cancel all debt would make things even worse.

Please feel free to correct me if I have misunderstood any of your comments. I'm not always the sharpest pencil in the box - especially when it gets this late.  Surprised (Yawn!)

I do have to give you A LOT of credit to your amazing ethical or moral compass.  You are the kind of person that many should emulate.

Thank you. That means a lot. I hope I've been able to impart the same level of ethics into my kids - although I don't think I've been as successful at that as I would like.  Undecided

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caroline_culbert
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Re: Scenario: Implosion, Collapse, & Liberation

Yeah.. I'm not sure Sam.  I am not in the same boat.  Maybe that makes me more cowardly because I am more equivocated on the issue.  I don't know what to do.  I just think that sometimes we may be enabling an inept system by believing we are doing the right thing. 

Maybe you are carrying out the pain longer than it need to be?  I mean, do you think we could just end the money system (as I see it is failing) and start fresh with something new?

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Re: Scenario: Implosion, Collapse, & Liberation

Hmmmm  been thinking about this...  define amoral?  Isn't the Matrix amoral?  I mean to say, enslaving people to do unsustainable jobs so they can afford to borrow fake money, to buy unsustainable toys so the world's greediest people can become even more obcenely wealthy...  does sound moral to you Lisa.

Just wondering.  Serously.

Mike 

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Re: Scenario: Implosion, Collapse, & Liberation
caroline_culbert wrote:

Yeah.. I'm not sure Sam.  I am not in the same boat.  Maybe that makes me more cowardly because I am more equivocated on the issue.  I don't know what to do.  I just think that sometimes we may be enabling an inept system by believing we are doing the right thing. 

Maybe you are carrying out the pain longer than it need to be?  I mean, do you think we could just end the money system (as I see it is failing) and start fresh with something new?

Caroline,

You and I are not that far apart in our thinking. Like you, I don't agree with the system as it currently exists. In fact I am in full agreement that the Fed should be abolished post-haste!

Maybe you are carrying out the pain longer than it need to be?

It's not a pain - it's a moral obligation to keep the promise that I made as long as the current system exists. If it ceases to exist, then the obligation is removed. Innocent

I mean, do you think we could just end the money system (as I see it is failing) and start fresh with something new? 

Yes - although you won't find me at the tip of the spear. Foot in mouth

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Re: Scenario: Implosion, Collapse, & Liberation
Damnthematrix wrote:

Hmmmm  been thinking about this...  define amoral?  Isn't the Matrix amoral?  I mean to say, enslaving people to do unsustainable jobs so they can afford to borrow fake money, to buy unsustainable toys so the world's greediest people can become even more obcenely wealthy...  does sound moral to you Lisa.

Just wondering.  Serously.

Mike 

Mike,

You are only partially right - the Matrix isn't amoral (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/amoral), it is downright evil.

... enslaving people to do unsustainable jobs so they can afford to borrow fake money, to buy unsustainable toys ...

Can't agree with you here. Too many people borrowed money and racked up credit card debt to buy those "unsustainable toys" and no one twisted their arms in the process. The banks simply made the money available - but you can't force someone to take on debt. For the record, I am credit-card debt free and have been for countless years. I carry a small mortgage and a car payment. No one made me take on that debt - I did it with eyes wide open. When I see the obscene consumption that takes place in this country (US), it doesn't surprise me that the whole system has been a house of cards waiting to collapse!

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Damnthematrix
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Re: Scenario: Implosion, Collapse, & Liberation

No Sam, no one forced anyone to borrow more than they could afford, BUT the concept is constantly marketed to them, and here in Oz, it STILL IS!

We have one credit card between us, and the bank is constantly writing to us offering to up our (very low by any standards!) limit....  which of course we just chuck in the recycling bin.

But just imagine somone in some trouble, might be car problems, or worse, health problems, which they can't afford.  Do you think they'd knock back the offer?  It wasn't 'forced on them'......  but it might as well have been.

Mike 

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Damnthematrix
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Re: Scenario: Implosion, Collapse, & Liberation

In fact, MARKETING/ADVERTISING is bordering on amoral as far as I'm concerned.  And I used to work in the industry until I could bear it no longer.

Nobody NEEDS a plasma screen TV, or a holiday to the Bahamas....  but these things are constantly flashed at you in different medias designed to make you feel uncool if you don't participate in the Matrix.

Technology ensures that year after year, newer and better stuff with more buttons and functions comes along making the old stuff, which in most instances still works, redundant.  People throw away the most amazing stuff.....

In Japan, for instance, no one's allowed to own a car for more than (I think) five years.  The taxes on old cars are so high that people replace them with new ones.  Some of these 'old' cars end up here in Australia (Japan and Australia are both right hand drive) and most of them don't even have 40,000 miles on the clock.....

A friend of mine worked in Japan for a couple of years as a diesel mechanic on the snowfields.  EVERYTHING is so expensive in Japan he could not afford to set himself up, but someone suggested he go to the landfill tip.....  where he found a perfectly good motorbike (which he used for 2 years and took back to the tip when finished!) and everything else he needed in the way of furniture and white good and electronics.  The bike still had gas in it, he stood it up, and kick started it at his first attempt....

This happens because Japan has been in recession for soooo long it's not funny.  The whole place runs on debt in an effort to keep the Matrix going (and in Japan, the concept of the Matrix applies better than anywhere else in the world). The Japanese might as well be forced to take debts, there's no other way the place could operate....  consumption would just die altogether without debt, which is EXACTLY what is happening now that credit is hard to get.

Mike 

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Re: Scenario: Implosion, Collapse, & Liberation
Damnthematrix wrote:

In fact, MARKETING/ADVERTISING is bordering on amoral as far as I'm concerned.  And I used to work in the industry until I could bear it no longer.

Nobody NEEDS a plasma screen TV, or a holiday to the Bahamas....  but these things are constantly flashed at you in different medias designed to make you feel uncool if you don't participate in the Matrix.

Technology ensures that year after year, newer and better stuff with more buttons and functions comes along making the old stuff, which in most instances still works, redundant.  People throw away the most amazing stuff.....

In Japan, for instance, no one's allowed to own a car for more than (I think) five years.  The taxes on old cars are so high that people replace them with new ones.  Some of these 'old' cars end up here in Australia (Japan and Australia are both right hand drive) and most of them don't even have 40,000 miles on the clock.....

A friend of mine worked in Japan for a couple of years as a diesel mechanic on the snowfields.  EVERYTHING is so expensive in Japan he could not afford to set himself up, but someone suggested he go to the landfill tip.....  where he found a perfectly good motorbike (which he used for 2 years and took back to the tip when finished!) and everything else he needed in the way of furniture and white good and electronics.  The bike still had gas in it, he stood it up, and kick started it at his first attempt....

This happens because Japan has been in recession for soooo long it's not funny.  The whole place runs on debt in an effort to keep the Matrix going (and in Japan, the concept of the Matrix applies better than anywhere else in the world). The Japanese might as well be forced to take debts, there's no other way the place could operate....  consumption would just die altogether without debt, which is EXACTLY what is happening now that credit is hard to get.

Mike 

 

Hi Mike,

In fact, MARKETING/ADVERTISING is bordering on amoral

I think you would be more dead on if you said 'immoral'. Wink

I don't disagree with you Mike. I think this over-consumption is bad for all of us. As you noted in your previous post, we too toss (recycle) all the offers that come our way.

But just imagine someone in some trouble, might be car problems, or
worse, health problems, which they can't afford.  Do you think they'd
knock back the offer?  It wasn't 'forced on them'......  but it might
as well have been. 

This is where "the devil is in the details". Credit can be a very useful tool when used wisely. I have previously taken short-term advantage of credit when times were tougher than they are now. However, I paid it back as rapidly as I could.

Those who are forced by circumstances beyond their control (health issues, loss of job, etc.) to depend on credit get my utmost sympathy. Most of them do not want to be in that trap, but are unable to get out of it.

The ones that I have no sympathy for are those who use credit to live way beyond their means when they don't need to but still want the latest toy or gadget.

I must admit, I did find your Japan story to be interesting - what a strange world we live in!

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Damnthematrix
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An interesting challenge

 An interesting challenge

" Since, as you’ll see from the second
post above, I also doubt the possibility of causing inflation simply by
driving up M0, the second option is the only one that I expect will
work: at some point, to end this crisis, much of the debt is going to
have to be repudiated."

While I am an academic economist, I
don’t build nor believe in the type of econometric models that dominate
economics these days–generally so-called “New Keynesian” or “Dynamic
Stochastic General Equilibrium” models.

Instead I build nonlinear dynamic models
based on Minsky’s “Financial Instability Hypothesis”, and I have
started constructing a strictly monetary model of a pure credit economy.

My predictions based on these models are
qualitative rather than quantitative, but on the grounds of Minsky’s
extremely prescient hypothesis the sheer scale of private debt that has
been accumulated, and the abundant historical data on debt with which
we can review past economic performance in the light of Minsky’s
hypothesis, I have been arguing that this crisis is beyond bailouts.

Therefore while I think the bailouts are
better than doing nothing, ultimately I see them as futile. All they
will do is replace some private debt with even more public debt as has
happened in Japan (if the spending is debt-financed), or pump fiat
money into the economy only to see it disappear into debt repayment and
not reflate the economy if (as Bernanke is now doing with M0) the
helicopter approach is used.

To check my reasoning and qualitative predictions on this front, I proffer two models that are elucidated on posts on my blog http://www.debtdeflation.com/blogs:

http://www.debtdeflation.com/blogs/2008/11/26/parliamentary-library-vital-issues-seminar/

and

http://www.debtdeflation.com/blogs/2009/01/31/therovingcavaliersofcredit/

The former includes a model of Minsky’s
Hypothesis built in the systems engineering program Vissim, which is
downloadable from the blog; the latter details a model of a pure credit
economy that undergoes a credit crunch, using the mathematics program
Mathcad.

The former can be downloaded and run;
the latter I only explain in the post, though there is a draft of a
forthcoming paper that details the mathematics of the model:

http://www.debtdeflation.com/blogs/wp-content/uploads/papers/NotKeenOnBailoutsFinal.pdf

Both models, which I’m now working on
integrating and extending, imply that there is no way out of this
crisis while we still in effect honour the debt that was run up during
this speculative bubble. We either have to inflate it out of existence,
or selectively abolish it.

Since, as you’ll see from the second
post above, I also doubt the possibility of causing inflation simply by
driving up M0, the second option is the only one that I expect will
work: at some point, to end this crisis, much of the debt is going to
have to be repudiated.

I’ll keep an eye on that blog entry to see what eventuates, and
whether any neoclassical economists submit their models for scrutiny.

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Damnthematrix
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Posts: 3998
An interesting challenge

Ooops...  deleted accidental double post.  M

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