Questions For Present/Past Law Enforcement & Military

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Morpheus's picture
Morpheus
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Questions For Present/Past Law Enforcement & Military

Since you are at this site I'm betting it's obvious where you stand with respect to taking illegal/unconstitutional orders during a nationwide emergency.

Let me preface my comments with this: For those LE and military that dutifully honor their oath you are the heros of the community.

For those that disregard them or consider them to be an obtacle, you have my utter contempt.

That said, let me ask you gentlemen (and ladies, it's 2009 afterall) this:

What is your "feel" for what LE and the service would do in a national emergency. Would they take any and all orders from their superiors, even if such orders treated the constitution like toilet paper?

It's a huge concern of mine, and I'd like to read the perspective of those in the culture. I am sure a LOT of readers here would also. I've read hints of this topic here and there for months.

Thanks for taking the time. :)

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darbytraven
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Re: Questions For Present/Past Law Enforcement & Military

I retired from the state police two years ago.  I was a state trooper for 15 years.  Even before I retired, I began to see the trend and did a lot of thinking about how far I would go to obey orders.  I decided that I had never violated the constitution and I would never do so, even if it meant my job.  The social trends were very disturbing and factored into my decision to retire at 55.  I am thankful I never had to make the decision.  Now, with the difficulty in finding work, it would be much harder putting my source of income on the line.  I worked with a variety of officers over the years and the majority of them were conservative, hard-working, ethical people.  I can only speak for myself and my choice would have been to refuse to violate the constitution. . .  but when your family's welfare is at stake . . .  that is the true test of character.

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Re: Questions For Present/Past Law Enforcement & Military
darbytraven wrote:

I retired from the state police two years ago.  I was a state trooper for 15 years.  Even before I retired, I began to see the trend and did a lot of thinking about how far I would go to obey orders.  I decided that I had never violated the constitution and I would never do so, even if it meant my job.  The social trends were very disturbing and factored into my decision to retire at 55.  I am thankful I never had to make the decision.  Now, with the difficulty in finding work, it would be much harder putting my source of income on the line.  I worked with a variety of officers over the years and the majority of them were conservative, hard-working, ethical people.  I can only speak for myself and my choice would have been to refuse to violate the constitution. . .  but when your family's welfare is at stake . . .  that is the true test of character.

Darby, you have my heartfelt thanks and respect for speaking up on this.  I have gone through similar ethical conflicts in mainstream healthcare, over the past 20 years . . . I did have to walk away from several jobs, for ethical, moral, and legal reasons . . . If we start compromising, the slope is so slippery, that once we start the downward slide, there's nothing to stop us, until we're up to our noses, in the cesspool below.  In my view, it's not just an altruistic motive that keeps us from letting go of our ethics and morals, it's also a gesture that's born of not wanting to live in the s***.

I took significant financial hits, in the short term, to preserve my integrity.  To a large degree, that paid off in the long run, as I still enjoy the respect and trust of those I care about.  But in the infinitely long run, it has been about something much, much deeper . . . It is about what I want to be a part of, and what I will not be a part of.  It's about what I believe, and how I behave as an expression of those beliefs.  In the end, that's all we have . . .

 

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Re: Questions For Present/Past Law Enforcement & Military

darby: Thank you for your selfless commitment to others, it is rare these days.

There is a good book that touches on similar issues, I think. In all honesty, I haven't read it, but it's on my short list coming up next. The book is titled: Ordinary Men and is written about young men in Germany that got swept up into the war and Naziism and what the mass movement did to them. The issue goes beyond money / jobs. When there is a mass movement and propaganda campaign, individuals are likely to go with the crowd for fear of looking weird.

Psychological experiments like the Stanford Prison Experiment (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanford_prison_experiment), the Solomon Asch study (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asch_conformity_experiments) and the Milgram experiment (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment) seem to suggest that many individuals have weak willpower when faced with a group or leader. These experiments had nothing to do with money.

Education and mental preparation seem to be the only antidotes, and even they are by no means surefire. Making the Constitution and individual rights "cool" again is really the most effective solution.

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Re: Questions For Present/Past Law Enforcement & Military

Morpheus:

You ask a key question.

My experience in wars and natural disasters...reflects what history has consistently shown.   Positive versus negative outcomes are directly a reflection of the quality in two areas.

1.)   Human Morals.

2.)   Leadership

In trying times, the people will galvinize toward any effective leadership, the key is that person(s) having the proper character of the above.   The more desperate the times are...the more the need grows for the populace...and to succumb or default to the worst if good folks aren't available.   Most of the leadership we currently have are what I describe as "glitter folks" with too little substance (too much greed and self serving).   The best leaders reflect and facilitate the human principles and values we admire (competence with a firm...virtuous selflessness).   The fruits of any leader will be shown in the level of loyalty, trust and confidence (morale) shown.

I've always found they best leaders never show up until its necessary, because of human values above (they just do their job...don't toot their horn).  It was that way when I was flying...in combat and also in natural disasters.   The people I counted on in a fix were more often then not...not those in the limelight in day to day operations.

So...I'll offer what in over 3 decades...I define as a leader...it comes down to 3 things...

1.)   An enduring leader builds bridges versus barriors.

2.)   An enduring leader makes everyone around them better, who in turn...make the leader better in a continuous, ongoing process.

3.)   An enduring leader instills to the group the acceptance and belief we ultimately are all in a leaky boat in the middle of the ocean.  We will sink or swim together, to survive, requires fostering a culture of promoting the highest standards to keep the boat afloat. 

The answer then...is in the character of key individuals in the organization and your local community.  Know them and you'll know the answer to your question.  

It truly comes down to knowing human character...both yourself and assessing your local external situation.   Focus on the 2 points I offer above and you can most objectively have the answer as it applies to you.

Finally...consider reflecting on  the following quote...

A great civilization is not conquered from without until it has destroyed itself within. The essential causes of the Roman decline lay in her people, her morals, her class struggles and failing trade, her bureaucratic despotism, her stifling taxes, and consuming wars.

–The Story of Civilization III (1944)

2 cents. 

Nichoman     

Subprime JD's picture
Subprime JD
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Re: Questions For Present/Past Law Enforcement & Military

Its a battle between principle vs job security. In this environment, unfortunately, many cops are scared of losing their jobs as some already have been laid off. Thus, it is likely that LE personnel will be more likely to follow orders even if those orders go against their principles.

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Re: Questions For Present/Past Law Enforcement & Military
Nichoman wrote:

Morpheus:

 

You ask a key question.

My experience in wars and natural disasters...reflects what history has consistently shown.   Positive versus negative outcomes are directly a reflection of the quality in two areas.

1.)   Human Morals.

2.)   Leadership

In trying times, the people will galvinize toward any effective leadership, the key is that person(s) having the proper character of the above.   The more desperate the times are...the more the need grows for the populace...and to succumb or default to the worst if good folks aren't available.   Most of the leadership we currently have are what I describe as "glitter folks" with too little substance (too much greed and self serving).   The best leaders reflect and facilitate the human principles and values we admire (competence with a firm...virtuous selflessness).   The fruits of any leader will be shown in the level of loyalty, trust and confidence (morale) shown.

I've always found they best leaders never show up until its necessary, because of human values above (they just do their job...don't toot their horn).  It was that way when I was flying...in combat and also in natural disasters.   The people I counted on in a fix were more often then not...not those in the limelight in day to day operations.

So...I'll offer what in over 3 decades...I define as a leader...it comes down to 3 things...

1.)   An enduring leader builds bridges versus barriors.

2.)   An enduring leader makes everyone around them better, who in turn...make the leader better in a continuous, ongoing process.

3.)   An enduring leader instills to the group the acceptance and belief we ultimately are all in a leaky boat in the middle of the ocean.  We will sink or swim together, to survive, requires fostering a culture of promoting the highest standards to keep the boat afloat. 

The answer then...is in the character of key individuals in the organization and your local community.  Know them and you'll know the answer to your question.  

It truly comes down to knowing human character...both yourself and assessing your local external situation.   Focus on the 2 points I offer above and you can most objectively have the answer as it applies to you.

Finally...consider reflecting on  the following quote...

A great civilization is not conquered from without until it has destroyed itself within. The essential causes of the Roman decline lay in her people, her morals, her class struggles and failing trade, her bureaucratic despotism, her stifling taxes, and consuming wars.

–The Story of Civilization III (1944)

2 cents. 

 Nichoman     

Two cents?  Poppycock!  That was at least a buck fifty's worth, in silver, at that . . . very, very well said, Nichoman . . .

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Re: Questions For Present/Past Law Enforcement & Military

I was an army officer in my 20s.  I wouldn't have followed any direct order to shoot an american.  But that's not the way it happens...it happens in the midst of chaos.  If my platoon was being shot at by americans because I'm task organized under NorthCom (as 3rd Infantry is now) I probably would've maneuvered to control them one way or the other.  Not only will the orders be indirect, I also wasn't aware of the matrix I was in at the time.  When you're in the middle of chaos, the hierarchy kicks in, the brainwashing kicks in, the flag is draped around everything, and the most sensible option seems to be to "help" americans deal with the chaos by controlling the chaos, or help the cops being shot at because they're just "good guys" doing their job.  It's hard to see reality and know whether you're a storm trooper serving Vader or a good Jedi serving the republic.  

An example of the type of order that creates the situation:  JTF-6.  I violated posse comitatus by participating in JTF-6 to patrol the mexican border. How would I know I was violating fundamental law if the entire hierarchy supported it, the local Arizona police asked for it, citizens were a fan of it, and it was all to "save american kids from drugs?"  I didn't know at the time that the CIA drove the drug trade.  I didn't know at the time the US executive branch was an empire.  JTF-6 was Bush Sr and Clinton's way of doing early beta testing--to see if citizens would object and see if the military would willingly violate law by policing on domestic turf.  The test worked well--nobody opposed it. 

Another example:  Operation Brightstar in Egypt.  I violated the constitution in a strict sense by participating in training for global empire.  Didn't know it at the time. At the time, I didn't even think twice about obeying an order to deploy to Egypt to practice offensive desert warfare with foreign countries under the banner of the UN.  

Another example:  being assigned to NorthCom.  A brigade from 3rd Infantry is task organized under it now.  Nobody has protested.  No officers or soldiers have refused to obey the order that I know of.  Civilians seem fine with it.  It's the order that will eventually bring US soldiers in contact with US citizens.  See?  The hard decision doesn't come til way later after everybody has already been trained to accept being assigned to "protect the homeland."  Right now it seems sensible.  When shots are fired, it will be too chaotic to determine sensibility.  Only after the fact will it enter anyone's mind.  

I'm thrilled to see Darby was aware of the situation and got out.  But first, note that he got out because he wanted to avoid the dilemma in the moment of chaos...tells you the dilemma is going to be quite difficult and not many people are strong enough to violate group think and the hierarchy upon which their family's way of life depends. Also if guys like Darby got out, what type of person do you think is remaining?  Second, I think it's different for police because they're daily mixed with their citizens, whereas military and SWAT teams and militarized cops are not.  Third, he's older.  There's a reason the military has been young-ified over the last 20 years.  Older guys are more in touch with life...they will question empire.  Younger "hooah" guys typically won't....they're in the phase of life of proving their manhood.  Separate young from old mentors/leaders and you have a recipe for empire.  Some older Generals will support it as well...the weak, careerist types looking for another star who depend on their profession for a sense of worth.  They're easy to manipulate.  Strong, independent, cool generals who have a life just want to retire back home, fish, be with family, like General Meridius from Gladiator.  Those types have been reduced in number.  When I was in I saw many more pansy Generals with Princeton degrees getting rewarded and strong Generals not getting promoted.  A few strong ones remain because empire builders need somebody who can actually win a war, but if we slip into tyranny they won't be the ones running things on the home turf. Hitler/Himmler/Goebbels demonstrated what to do with guys like that...sent Rommel to Africa because he would've been an obstacle to the dweebie sick freaks doing their thing back home. Plus Rommel could win (until Patton came along) so he kept the flames of war patriotism high for Hitler.  

I wonder about Oath Keepers too.  I doubt it's a solution.  In fact, had it existed in the Third Reich, what better way for the Gestapo to know who to arrest?  Just grab their database and you can round them up overnight.  The guy who founded Oath Keepers is a Yale Law grad...one of the recruiting centers for empire builders.  He seems legit.  But I wonder.  

I hope this isn't overly depressing to read.  But it's my take.  The solution I hope for is a mass, anonymous awakening to the matrix.  Everything else is manipulable.  

 

 

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Re: Questions For Present/Past Law Enforcement & Military

Strabes, Darby.

I hope you realize that in a national emergency us patriots would lay our lives on the line for men of honor such as yourselves. Far beyond just blowing smoke, I think MANY of us here would do just that.

You are principled, decent, and honorable patriots. I salute you.

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Re: Questions For Present/Past Law Enforcement & Military
Morpheus wrote:

Since you are at this site I'm betting it's obvious where you stand with respect to taking illegal/unconstitutional orders during a nationwide emergency.

Let me preface my comments with this: For those LE and military that dutifully honor their oath you are the heros of the community.

For those that disregard them or consider them to be an obtacle, you have my utter contempt.

That said, let me ask you gentlemen (and ladies, it's 2009 afterall) this:

What is your "feel" for what LE and the service would do in a national emergency. Would they take any and all orders from their superiors, even if such orders treated the constitution like toilet paper?

It's a huge concern of mine, and I'd like to read the perspective of those in the culture. I am sure a LOT of readers here would also. I've read hints of this topic here and there for months.

Thanks for taking the time. :)

There are now and always will be those who are willing and prepared to sacrifice everything to honor the oath they took to uphold and protect the Constitution “against all enemies foreign and domestic.” 

The debate that wages in my own mind is how many will there be?  Will it be many or few?  Will there be enough to stand against tyranny to make a real difference or will they be swept away in the flood? 

I know many who are well intentioned and good natured who will for lack of understanding will be easily seduced by fear and ignorance to follow unlawful and unconstitutional orders.  These are good people who don’t know their history and by the time they realize what is going on they will have crossed a bridge too far. 

In my thinking the determining factors will be 1) Character and moral courage/conviction and 2) An understanding of U.S. history and the philosophies and understanding of the Founding Fathers as expressed in the Declaration of Independence, Constitution, and numerous personal papers, letters, books, and news paper articles. 

It may be of some interest and comfort to you to know that there is a grass roots movement afoot called “Oath Keepers”.  These men and women in public service have pledged that they will not obey any of the following 10 orders: 

http://oathkeepers.org/oath/2009/03/03/declaration-of-orders-we-will-not-obey/ 

There are three things I am willing and prepared to die for:

 1)      The Gospel of Jesus Christ,

2)      My wife, children, and extended family,

3)      The Constitution of the United States and the Republic

That may be more information than you want but as far as those are concerned those are "non-negotiable" 

To answer your question, I don’t know whether unconstitutional orders will be obeyed en mass or not. 

 What I can say is I will stand among those who honor the Constitution, whatever the price (for whatever that is worth).

 

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Re: Questions For Present/Past Law Enforcement & Military
strabes wrote:

I was an army officer in my 20s.  I wouldn't have followed any direct order to shoot an american.  But that's not the way it happens...it happens in the midst of chaos.  If my platoon was being shot at by americans because I'm task organized under NorthCom (as 3rd Infantry is now) I probably would've maneuvered to control them one way or the other.  Not only will the orders be indirect, I also wasn't aware of the matrix I was in at the time.  When you're in the middle of chaos, the hierarchy kicks in, the brainwashing kicks in, the flag is draped around everything, and the most sensible option seems to be to "help" americans deal with the chaos by controlling the chaos, or help the cops being shot at because they're just "good guys" doing their job.  It's hard to see reality and know whether you're a storm trooper serving Vader or a good Jedi serving the republic.  

An example of the type of order that creates the situation:  JTF-6.  I violated posse comitatus by participating in JTF-6 to patrol the mexican border. How would I know I was violating fundamental law if the entire hierarchy supported it, the local Arizona police asked for it, citizens were a fan of it, and it was all to "save american kids from drugs?"  I didn't know at the time that the CIA drove the drug trade.  I didn't know at the time the US executive branch was an empire.  JTF-6 was Bush Sr and Clinton's way of doing early beta testing--to see if citizens would object and see if the military would willingly violate law by policing on domestic turf.  The test worked well--nobody opposed it. 

Another example:  Operation Brightstar in Egypt.  I violated the constitution in a strict sense by participating in training for global empire.  Didn't know it at the time. At the time, I didn't even think twice about obeying an order to deploy to Egypt to practice offensive desert warfare with foreign countries under the banner of the UN.  

Another example:  being assigned to NorthCom.  A brigade from 3rd Infantry is task organized under it now.  Nobody has protested.  No officers or soldiers have refused to obey the order that I know of.  Civilians seem fine with it.  It's the order that will eventually bring US soldiers in contact with US citizens.  See?  The hard decision doesn't come til way later after everybody has already been trained to accept being assigned to "protect the homeland."  Right now it seems sensible.  When shots are fired, it will be too chaotic to determine sensibility.  Only after the fact will it enter anyone's mind.  

I'm thrilled to see Darby was aware of the situation and got out.  But first, note that he got out because he wanted to avoid the dilemma in the moment of chaos...tells you the dilemma is going to be quite difficult and not many people are strong enough to violate group think and the hierarchy upon which their family's way of life depends. Also if guys like Darby got out, what type of person do you think is remaining?  Second, I think it's different for police because they're daily mixed with their citizens, whereas military and SWAT teams and militarized cops are not.  Third, he's older.  There's a reason the military has been young-ified over the last 20 years.  Older guys are more in touch with life...they will question empire.  Younger "hooah" guys typically won't....they're in the phase of life of proving their manhood.  Separate young from old mentors/leaders and you have a recipe for empire.  Some older Generals will support it as well...the weak, careerist types looking for another star who depend on their profession for a sense of worth.  They're easy to manipulate.  Strong, independent, cool generals who have a life just want to retire back home, fish, be with family, like General Meridius from Gladiator.  Those types have been reduced in number.  When I was in I saw many more pansy Generals with Princeton degrees getting rewarded and strong Generals not getting promoted.  A few strong ones remain because empire builders need somebody who can actually win a war, but if we slip into tyranny they won't be the ones running things on the home turf. Hitler/Himmler/Goebbels demonstrated what to do with guys like that...sent Rommel to Africa because he would've been an obstacle to the dweebie sick freaks doing their thing back home. Plus Rommel could win (until Patton came along) so he kept the flames of war patriotism high for Hitler.  

I wonder about Oath Keepers too.  I doubt it's a solution.  In fact, had it existed in the Third Reich, what better way for the Gestapo to know who to arrest?  Just grab their database and you can round them up overnight.  The guy who founded Oath Keepers is a Yale Law grad...one of the recruiting centers for empire builders.  He seems legit.  But I wonder.  

I hope this isn't overly depressing to read.  But it's my take.  The solution I hope for is a mass, anonymous awakening to the matrix.  Everything else is manipulable.  

 

That was an excellent, and highly nuanced post, Strabes . . . Thanks.  The better I get to know you, the more I realize that you are a nuanced and circumspect thinker.

 

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Re: Questions For Present/Past Law Enforcement & Military
npwebb wrote:

There are three things I am willing and prepared to die for:

 1)      The Gospel of Jesus Christ,

2)      My wife, children, and extended family,

3)      The Constitution of the United States and the Republic

I like those priorities, NPW . . .

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Re: Questions For Present/Past Law Enforcement & Military

Thanks for all the comments.  Not that it matters, but I happen to be a female . . . no offense taken   lol.

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Re: Questions For Present/Past Law Enforcement & Military

Great insight. Keep it coming!

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Re: Questions For Present/Past Law Enforcement & Military
darbytraven wrote:

Thanks for all the comments.  Not that it matters, but I happen to be a female . . . no offense taken   lol.

Hey! I said "and ladies", Wink

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Re: Questions For Present/Past Law Enforcement & Military
darbytraven wrote:

Thanks for all the comments.  Not that it matters, but I happen to be a female . . . no offense taken   lol.

Hey! I said "and ladies...", Wink

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Re: Questions For Present/Past Law Enforcement & Military
Cloudfire wrote:
npwebb wrote:

There are three things I am willing and prepared to die for:

 1)      The Gospel of Jesus Christ,

2)      My wife, children, and extended family,

3)      The Constitution of the United States and the Republic

I like those priorities, NPW . . .

Dying for one's religion has cost countless of millions of lives throughout history.

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Re: Questions For Present/Past Law Enforcement & Military
rowmat wrote:
Cloudfire wrote:
npwebb wrote:

There are three things I am willing and prepared to die for:

 1)      The Gospel of Jesus Christ,

2)      My wife, children, and extended family,

3)      The Constitution of the United States and the Republic

I like those priorities, NPW . . .

Dying for one's religion has cost countless of millions of lives throughout history.

 

In the past, in the present and in the future.

"If it isn't worth dying for it isn't worth living for."

All the more sad that many have died in vain....all the more reason to rejoice that we live in a country where the Constitution protects the free exercise of religion and people can worship what ever and whom ever they please without fear of death or imprisonment.

This is the exception in history not the rule.  This is a privilege worth fighting to preserve and dying to defend, don’t you think?

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Re: Questions For Present/Past Law Enforcement & Military
Morpheus wrote:

Strabes, Darby.

I hope you realize that in a national emergency us patriots would lay our lives on the line for men of honor such as yourselves. Far beyond just blowing smoke, I think MANY of us here would do just that.

You are principled, decent, and honorable patriots. I salute you.

+1    In a heartbeat.

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Re: Questions For Present/Past Law Enforcement & Military

Unless the religion encourages acts of aggression, I would suggest that oppressing religion is what has truly cost the lives...

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Re: Questions For Present/Past Law Enforcement & Military
Mike Pilat wrote:

Unless the religion encourages acts of aggression, I would suggest that oppressing religion is what has truly cost the lives...

 

...and to state the obvious, the Constitution does give protection to acts of aggression.

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Re: Questions For Present/Past Law Enforcement & Military
npwebb wrote:
rowmat wrote:
Cloudfire wrote:
npwebb wrote:

There are three things I am willing and prepared to die for:

 1)      The Gospel of Jesus Christ,

2)      My wife, children, and extended family,

3)      The Constitution of the United States and the Republic

I like those priorities, NPW . . .

Dying for one's religion has cost countless of millions of lives throughout history.

 

In the past, in the present and in the future.

"If it isn't worth dying for it isn't worth living for."

All the more sad that many have died in vain....all the more reason to rejoice that we live in a country where the Constitution protects the free exercise of religion and people can worship what ever and whom ever they please without fear of death or imprisonment.

This is the exception in history not the rule.  This is a privilege worth fighting to preserve and dying to defend, don’t you think?

Protecting your family is one thing.

Death in the name of religion?

You know where this thread is heading...don't you?

 

Cloudfire's picture
Cloudfire
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Re: Questions For Present/Past Law Enforcement & Military
rowmat wrote:
npwebb wrote:
rowmat wrote:
Cloudfire wrote:
npwebb wrote:

There are three things I am willing and prepared to die for:

 1)      The Gospel of Jesus Christ,

2)      My wife, children, and extended family,

3)      The Constitution of the United States and the Republic

I like those priorities, NPW . . .

Dying for one's religion has cost countless of millions of lives throughout history.

 

In the past, in the present and in the future.

"If it isn't worth dying for it isn't worth living for."

All the more sad that many have died in vain....all the more reason to rejoice that we live in a country where the Constitution protects the free exercise of religion and people can worship what ever and whom ever they please without fear of death or imprisonment.

This is the exception in history not the rule.  This is a privilege worth fighting to preserve and dying to defend, don’t you think?

Protecting your family is one thing.

Death in the name of religion?

You know where this thread is heading...don't you?

 

Not on my watch . . . But thanks for throwing the flag.

Soooooo . . . .  . . to strategically change the subject:  Every once in a while, in the ICU, I'd have a patient say to me, "I'm going to die, aren't I?" . . . or something to that effect.  Well, for the novice nurse, that question is enough to make you swallow your tongue (especially if it's true  . . . ).  So, after a while, I developed a stock answer that was only superficially humorous:  I'd look straight at 'em, narrow my eyes, and say,  "Not on my shift . . . "  and then, with a twinkle in my eye, I'd go into some tongue-in-cheek joking about how deaths generated too much paperwork for me . . . The fact that I had the chutzpa to joke about it seemed to reassure them. . . Surely, I wouldn't joke about it, if they really were in danger of death . . . ?

. . . . So, how's that for changing the subject?, eh?

 

plato1965's picture
plato1965
Status: Platinum Member (Offline)
Joined: Feb 18 2009
Posts: 615
Re: Questions For Present/Past Law Enforcement & Military

 

 A *very* noble lie cloudfire...

 I'd want you on my ICU ward.

 not that I intend to visit one shortly.. (touch wood) !!

 

npwebb's picture
npwebb
Status: Silver Member (Offline)
Joined: Mar 25 2009
Posts: 111
Re: Questions For Present/Past Law Enforcement & Military

No, I don't know where this is heading because in part I don't know where you are coming from.

Perhaps some clarification will put any discomfort you feel to rest:

1) The Constitution (under the 1st amendment) acknowledges and protects the right of  the people to the free expression of religion. (I don't understand how this could cause any American to feel uncomfortable). 

2) If an individual or state put a gun to my head and gave me the option of A) Denounce your faith or B) suffer x, y, or z (up to and including death), I would not hesitate one moment to chose "B".

Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't see how any of the above could be offensive or controversial.  I'm open to honest and civil discussion, so feel free to question or challenge any of the points above.

btw Cloud...very smooth distractionLaughing

Cloudfire's picture
Cloudfire
Status: Diamond Member (Offline)
Joined: Sep 29 2008
Posts: 1813
Re: Questions For Present/Past Law Enforcement & Military
plato1965 wrote:

  A *very* noble lie cloudfire...

 I'd want you on my ICU ward.

 not that I intend to visit one shortly.. (touch wood) !!

 

Well, Plato, all other qualities notwithstanding, you certainly know how to alternate the insults with compliments . . . Everybody's good at something . . . .

 

Cloudfire's picture
Cloudfire
Status: Diamond Member (Offline)
Joined: Sep 29 2008
Posts: 1813
A Bit of Hospitality . . .

[quote=npwebb]

No, I don't know where this is heading because in part I don't know where you are coming from.

Perhaps some clarification will put any discomfort you feel to rest:

1) The Constitution (under the 1st amendment) acknowledges and protects the right of  the people to the free expression of religion. (I don't understand how this could cause any American to feel uncomfortable). 

2) If an individual or state put a gun to my head and gave me the option of A) Denounce your faith or B) suffer x, y, or z (up to and including death), I would not hesitate one moment to chose "B".

Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't see how any of the above could be offensive or controversial.  I'm open to honest and civil discussion, so feel free to question or challenge any of the points above.

btw Cloud...very smooth distractionLaughing

[/quote]

Why, thank you, NPW . . . my pleasure . . . .

I fully understand and advocate your point, but I should let you know that religion is specifically, and officially, and terminally, a taboo subject on this site . . . Not by my choosing, mind you  . . . but, there it is, nonetheless . . .  I do discuss it, unapologetically, on my blog, however . . . Please feel free to drop in, any time . . . CloudfireOnFire.com  . . . .   

npwebb's picture
npwebb
Status: Silver Member (Offline)
Joined: Mar 25 2009
Posts: 111
Re: A Bit of Hospitality . . .

[quote=Cloudfire]

[quote=npwebb]

No, I don't know where this is heading because in part I don't know where you are coming from.

Perhaps some clarification will put any discomfort you feel to rest:

1) The Constitution (under the 1st amendment) acknowledges and protects the right of  the people to the free expression of religion. (I don't understand how this could cause any American to feel uncomfortable). 

2) If an individual or state put a gun to my head and gave me the option of A) Denounce your faith or B) suffer x, y, or z (up to and including death), I would not hesitate one moment to chose "B".

Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't see how any of the above could be offensive or controversial.  I'm open to honest and civil discussion, so feel free to question or challenge any of the points above.

btw Cloud...very smooth distraction

[/quote]

Why, thank you, NPW . . . my pleasure . . . .

I fully understand and advocate your point, but I should let you know that religion is specifically, and officially, and terminally, a taboo subject on this site . . . Not by my choosing, mind you  . . . but, there it is, nonetheless . . .  I do discuss it, unapologetically, on my blog, however . . . Please feel free to drop in, any time . . . CloudfireOnFire.com  . . . .   

[/quote]

 

I have re-read the Forum rules and will defer to your judgment (although the distinction between faith and religion is not clear...I'll try to adhere to the "spirit of the law" until such time that distinction is more explicitly stated).

To that end I have a question that will be posted in the Controversial Topics section of the forum.

Cloudfire's picture
Cloudfire
Status: Diamond Member (Offline)
Joined: Sep 29 2008
Posts: 1813
Re: A Bit of Hospitality . . .
npwebb wrote:

The distinction between faith and religion is not clear...

That seems to be one of the unfathomable mysteries of the moderation process . . . I'm quite sure that I don't want to find the line, if you get my drift  . . .

 

Stapler's picture
Stapler
Status: Member (Offline)
Joined: Oct 21 2009
Posts: 2
Re: Questions For Present/Past Law Enforcement & Military

A very reasonable question and excellent discourse.

Our military men and women, just like our local, state, and federal police officers are made of, by and for our society.  It is my humble, yet somewhat learned opinion that very few moral compunctions or inclinations within those organizations would differ much from societal norms in a given situation or crisis.

They are all just people, and will behave as such; some great, most good/fair/poor, and some will do horrific things.

ao's picture
ao
Status: Diamond Member (Offline)
Joined: Feb 4 2009
Posts: 2220
Re: Questions For Present/Past Law Enforcement & Military
Cloudfire wrote:

That was an excellent, and highly nuanced post, Strabes . . . Thanks.  The better I get to know you, the more I realize that you are a nuanced and circumspect thinker.

Agreed.  Very incisive.  

 

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