The question all americans should ask themselves.

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Damnthematrix's picture
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Re: The question all americans should ask themselves.

Trade deficits only occur because people with money, who wnat even/ever more money, import/export 'stuff', not because it's necessary to import/export, but because there's money to be made....

You, in the US, just like us in Australia, don't actually need to shift 'stuff' around, we can look after all our needs internally.  Trade deficits are just as lunatic as any other debt.  We do all this shit, merely because we can.  Soon, we won't be able to.  Who's going to build the next fleet of sailing ships able to shift all this trade as efficiently as the current oil powered fleet?

The next 20 years will be nothing like the last....  repeat twenty times!

Mike

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Re: The question all americans should ask themselves.

RNcarl wrote: The problem is as everyone has pointed out, "modern" live can't exist without the bank credit.

RNcarl and everyone else on this thread who thinks we can't exist without modern forms of credit - you are too caught up in the current era and have not learned from history.

Look to your parents and grandparents for the answers. They lived without modern bank credit. Ask them how they did it. Life has not changed that much in a couple of generations.

When I was younger, we paid cash for most everything except a house or a car. If we couldn't afford something (clothes, an appliance, etc.) we used the concept of "layaway" and it worked quite nicely. Basically, we didn't buy what we couldn't afford. This concept has been used across generations and, believe it or not, is still in use today: http://www.oregonlive.com/O/index.ssf/2008/10/remember_layaway_they_do_i...

For a fascinating look at the history of "credit", check out this site: http://myvesta.org/history/

Learn to live a simpler life. As Mike (DamntheMatrix) points out, you don't need a lot of stuff. Most of us want stuff and have come to expect instant gratification. Take a step or two back and re-evaluate your life. What is important? Family, food/water, clothing, shelter (not necessarily in that order). Anything else is just icing on the cake.

It's just like I said at the beginning of this thread - GREED is the problem.

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Re: The question all americans should ask themselves.

I agree greed and the other 3 horsemen in that awesome pic are the core issue.  But that doesn't give us an action plan because we can't get rid of human pathology.  The only thing we can do is put systems in place that constrain it and don't reward/encourage it. That was the US Constitution...a powerful check on human depravity.  Criminals and sheisters were drawn to state governments and power centers because the federal level wasn't worth anything.  That changed over time as the Constitution was systematically violated to the point that today it pretty much doesn't exist.  And since 1913 the primary institution that has systematically violated it, ruined the checks and balances, and created a permanent centralized power center over all other competing interests/factions by unconstitutionally controlling our money is the Fed (and the mega banking institutions that have sprung up around it that pump out all the debt money to us while engaging in the crazy leveraging/gambling that has created the collapse).  So I still say the best way to weaken that system is to pull funds from the banks, and if more states try what Minnesota is trying, cool!

 

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Re: The question all americans should ask themselves.

Strabes, I think you just said the following (that my Grandfather told me many years ago)

"Any one who WANTS to be a politician should be automatically eliminated from the possibility of holding any public office,"

He had a theory, which might be of interest, all political offices, would be elected, but the candidates selected at random from industries related to that field, for instance take transportation, any potential political representatives for would be selected at random from transportation industries, then elected by the people. They have the job for 4 years (or alternatively fired, or until the job they were elected for is complete whichever is the shorter), then they're out forever.The office would be public service, so they get a minimum Stipend for living expenses say $20,000, a place to live that is representative of the average home, a freeze on their finances prior to holding office for the period of them holding office, this means loans they hold are fixed until they leave office (no loan growth due to interest), but also their assets are equally frozen (no augmentation of the maximum income).

Here's an example of how it would work

So for instance there's a need for a government "work" to plan and build a Hydro dam system. Ok so all civil engineers who are dam building experts are put into a hat (unless they've already held a government office) and say 4 are selected randomly. We the people elect one of them, based on their experience, their approach, etc. Once elected they hold that office until they get fired, 4 years have passed, or the job is done. So lets say we have a high flyer who completes the logistics and designs in a year. He's done and can go back to his normal job, probably earning a lot more than the government post he held.

I actually think that my Grandfather was on to something, it promotes completion of specific tasks in as short a time as possible, and does not reward feet dragging. It eliminates as much as possible the Mandarins who want to be there, and makes jobs in Government finite. Accountability is obvious too, if the guy screws up or is hugely successful it will likely affect his career as well, since he's not a professional politician, and of course helps to minimize lobbying since it's just some Joe Blow, who few people will know.

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Re: The question all americans should ask themselves.

"He had a theory, which might be of interest, all political offices, would be elected, but the candidates selected at random from industries related to that field, for instance take transportation, any potential political representatives for would be selected at random from transportation industries, then elected by the people. "

What if you didn't want to be selected?

 

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Re: The question all americans should ask themselves.

It's community service, much like the draft, you could refuse but there would be penalties. All American residents (even illegal aliens) are eligible for selective service anyway between the ages of 18 and 35, it's just an extension of this for civic works.

The whole point is that all you would lose is time and that would be as much or as little time doing the job as you choose to, and your financial situation is frozen while doing so. So the net effect is attempted to be zero impact, other than the time you spend. You gain nothing while you're doing the job, and you should lose nothing while doing the job.

So the question is what would you gain by refusal?

The other question is, who would you prefer to do these required functions? Someone who wants to do it (who kind of by definition is elected using funds that are provided by pressure groups, and thus is automatically open to corruption) or someone who has nothing to gain by doing it?

It's not perfect by any means, just a thought process, there are a lot of bugs to be knocked out of that system. Think of it as a brainstorming solution.

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Re: The question all americans should ask themselves.

So, basically, it would work a lot like jury duty. Your name gets drawn from the magic hat, and then you're either selected or dismissed (hopefully by public election process!)... or you find some legitimate way to get out of it.

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Re: The question all americans should ask themselves.
PlicketyCat wrote:

So, basically, it would work a lot like jury duty. Your name gets drawn from the magic hat, and then you're either selected or dismissed (hopefully by public election process!)... or you find some legitimate way to get out of it.

I believe that this is somewhat simlar to the way Michaelangelo was "drafted" to paint the Sistine Chapel, and, well, we all know how that worked out . . . . .

 

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Re: The question all americans should ask themselves.

"I agree greed and the other 3 horsemen in that awesome pic are the core issue.  But that doesn't give us an action plan because we can't get rid of human pathology."

Maybe not.....  but the Planet will!

Mike

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Re: The question all americans should ask themselves.

Sam may have just solved our future credit bubble problems: Layaways. Credit backward.

I well remember as a kid when no one had any credit cards but fat cat tycoons. When Mom wanted a new washer, you would go down to Sears, give them 10 bucks toward the purchase of the machine Mom wanted, they would take it out of stock to keep for you, you would pay 10 bucks a week or month until it was paid for and then they would deliver it.

No interest on layaways, no way to default on the purchase after you already have the merchandise, and no 750 credit scores. Also no buying those items you don't need on a whim. If you were going to put money up before you got the item, you would think it through.

 

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Re: The question all americans should ask themselves.

See, Jerry, there's something to be said for the good old days.

Of course, the banksters would hate it - for obvious reasons!

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Re: The question all americans should ask themselves.

Sam can you point to any point since the founding of our country where bank credit wasn't the dominate money?

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Re: The question all americans should ask themselves.

Ahhhhh.....Sam, I wish I was 25 and know what I know now........

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Re: The question all americans should ask themselves.
jerrydon10 wrote:

Ahhhhh.....Sam, I wish I was 25 and know what I know now........

 

Who was it that said "Youth is wasted on the young"  ?

 

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Re: The question all americans should ask themselves.
Thomas Hedin wrote:

Sam can you point to any point since the founding of our country where bank credit wasn't the dominate money?

Thomas - I'm not clever enough to know the answer.

From personal experience I do know that credit was not part of my knowledge base in my youth. If it indeed existed as a dominant feature around me, I was not aware of it. Later on, the first credit cards I ever had were Diners Club and Carte Blanche.

Apparently credit has been around in some form since the founding of our country as noted by Elizabeth Warren in this interview.

It's a use of credit we've had in the United States since colonial times - Elizabeth Warren.

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Re: The question all americans should ask themselves.

If credit was not what we used for money in your youth what did we use for money?

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Re: The question all americans should ask themselves.
Thomas Hedin wrote:

If credit was not what we used for money in your youth what did we use for money?

Silver certificates. Remember those? They were the precursor to FRN's.

Thomas - I'm not sure what "game" you are up to here. I feel like you are playing the part of a teacher who is trying to elicit the correct answer from his student.

Why don't you quit being coy and come right out with whatever you want to know. Enough of this foolishness.

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Re: The question all americans should ask themselves.

I meant to comment on this days ago but have been preoccupied, but anyway on "what to do" about all this...

Like some of the others who've chimed in here, I don't believe it's possible (or at least not for us) to STOP the financial system as we know it from suffering a major collapse.  It's possible to make minor changes and adjustments to allow for a softer landing I believe, but the political and business movers and shakers are by and large focused on preventing a collapse and keeping the status quo as it is, a largely futile waste of time and resources.  CM has started an excellent little community here and that community and the ideas driving it will likely spread far and wide, and I see that as the best way to tackle this problem.  But that is probably not going to spread far enough "upwards" to government and large business leaders in time for them to do anything proactive about it.  So the likely best tactic, as some here have already said, is wait for the system to collapse down to a simpler state, giving the right nudges along the way (building communities that encourage living within our means) in the hope that it makes the radical changes more manageable.  So I think the best thing for us to do is continue making our own preparations, encourage others to make their own as well, and keep an eye out for opportunities to influence the way the financial system and government reacts and adapts to the changes (the tea parties are an example).  We shouldn't be naive that we will change everything overnight, but we will have a figurative hand or two grabbing the wheel to help steer the ship a little closer to where we want

- Nickbert

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Re: The question all americans should ask themselves.

Ah Jerry, you and how many other baby boomers...?!

Mike

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Re: The question all americans should ask themselves.

Here's a great little speech I was pointed to yesterday, from one of my compatriots......  ~25MB download.

http://www.abc.net.au/rn/backgroundbriefing/stories/2009/2592909.htm

Mike

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Re: The question all americans should ask themselves.
nickbert wrote:

I meant to comment on this days ago but have been preoccupied, but anyway on "what to do" about all this...

Like some of the others who've chimed in here, I don't believe it's possible (or at least not for us) to STOP the financial system as we know it from suffering a major collapse.  It's possible to make minor changes and adjustments to allow for a softer landing I believe, but the political and business movers and shakers are by and large focused on preventing a collapse and keeping the status quo as it is, a largely futile waste of time and resources. 

<snip>

Nickbert -

Here's what's got me so fascinated by watching all of this.  I generally agree that our financial system is headed for a collapse but I am not convinced that it will be a total collapse - I'm hopeful for a total collapse, but not convinced.  As such, I think our financial system is headed for a major change (sure, I'm mincing words or arguing in the margins).  All of the actions the government is taking is doing little more than kicking the can down the road a bit and keeping us in the same box we've always been in.  As long as the 4 Horsemen of the Barackalypse (King Henry Paulson, (Sub) Prime Minister Bernanke, Timmy "Court Jester" Geithner and the rest of Capitol Hill's Idiocracy) continue their ride, we are headed for something big and I think it is going to force transformational change.

At some point however, the can is either going to get kicked off a cliff or run over by a truck (insert your allegorical cataclysmic event of choice).  At that point the government isn't going to have anything in their trusty little Handy Andy tool box to pull out and use.  TPTB will be forced to implement some form of unprecedented action - Matrix Mike has talked about 100% debt forgiveness on occasion - a rather drastic measure, but certainly possible.  We can hope that the collective we will have learned our lessons (not holding out for that though). 

I think we are all going to be surprised by what unfolds and I for one am curious, wary and nervous but glad to be witness to the Fourth Turning.

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Re: The question all americans should ask themselves.

Silver certificates. Remember those? They were the precursor to FRN's.

Thomas - I'm not sure what "game" you are up to here. I feel like you are playing the part of a teacher who is trying to elicit the correct answer from his student.

Why don't you quit being coy and come right out with whatever you want to know. Enough of this foolishness.

It is true that we were using Silver Certificates except you left out that fact that a the lowest point in history the bank credit exceeded any other form of money in America by at least 6 to 1.  I'm unsure when you were born, but if you were born in 1950 around that period in time bank credit probably exceeded silver certificates by 10 to 1.

I ask you questions and you're usually the first one to answer those questions but it seems to me I can never get any answer based on fact from you.  What I'm trying to do here is get people to actually research the facts of our monetary system, instead just coming up with what they think is the proper answer about how our monetary system functions.

How could silver certificates be the money if they were outnumbered by a minimum of 6 to 1 when compared to the true money(bank credit).  Wouldn't it be impossible to pay off a debt of 6 dollars with only 1 dollar?

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Re: The question all americans should ask themselves.

"History records that the money changers have used
every form of abuse, intrigue, deceit, and violent means possible
to maintain their control over governments
by controlling the money and its issuance."

-James Madison

 

"All the perplexities, confusion and distress in America arise, not from defects in their Constitution or Confederation, not from want of honor or virtue, so much as from the downright ignorance of the nature of coin, credit and circulation. "
 

-John Adams

 

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Re: The question all americans should ask themselves.
Thomas Hedin wrote:


I ask you questions and you're usually the first one to answer those questions but it seems to me I can never get any answer based on fact from you.  What I'm trying to do here is get people to actually research the facts of our monetary system, instead just coming up with what they think is the proper answer about how our monetary system functions.

Hey Tom:

If you're peeved at the fact that Sam isn't rushing to the textbook/internet to get answers to your questions, maybe the solution is to cut to the chase and state your thesis.  While a Socratic Dialogue can be illuminating and/or entertaining, it's also quite time consuming to do via that there interweb thang.  If you clearly state your point, no doubt untold dozens of posters here will be happy to enthuse about it or challenge it.  

Just my opinion, naturally.

Viva -- Sager

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Re: The question all americans should ask themselves.
Dogs_In_A_Pile wrote:

I think we are all going to be surprised by what unfolds and I for one am curious, wary and nervous but glad to be witness to the Fourth Turning.

Concur re we're going to be surprised.  For all the planning and preparation, no doubt at least in part the Great Delamination will be in some form that comes out of unsuspected territory.  

Right now I'm more wary/nervous than curious/glad, but if'n I am afforded another 12-18 months of preptime before things come truly unglued that'll flip.

Viva -- Sager

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Re: The question all americans should ask themselves.
Thomas Hedin wrote:

It is true that we were using Silver Certificates except you left out that fact that a the lowest point in history the bank credit exceeded any other form of money in America by at least 6 to 1.  I'm unsure when you were born, but if you were born in 1950 around that period in time bank credit probably exceeded silver certificates by 10 to 1.

I ask you questions and you're usually the first one to answer those questions but it seems to me I can never get any answer based on fact from you.  What I'm trying to do here is get people to actually research the facts of our monetary system, instead just coming up with what they think is the proper answer about how our monetary system functions.

How could silver certificates be the money if they were outnumbered by a minimum of 6 to 1 when compared to the true money(bank credit).  Wouldn't it be impossible to pay off a debt of 6 dollars with only 1 dollar?

Tom -

It's time to fish or cut bait.

What's your point?

Wax eloquent........

"Game over man, game over." - Staff SGT Hudson, Aliens

 

Edit:  FTR, Sager and I did not collude wrt the topical matter of our posts.  We just overlapped while typing. 

Great minds and all that..........

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Re: The question all americans should ask themselves.
Dogs_In_A_Pile wrote:

 

Edit:  FTR, Sager and I did not collude wrt the topical matter of our posts.  We just overlapped while typing. 

Great minds and all that..........

Uh.....huh.......Another collisional conspiracy right here on the CM forums.....;-)

Edit: collusional??

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Re: The question all americans should ask themselves.

Tom -

It's time to fish or cut bait.

What's your point?

The point is to get people to address the root cause of our economic problems.  The FACT that banks create 100% of our money and they only do it through a loan.  But when the principal part of that loan is paid back, that money gets destroyed, and when time and intererest kick in on borrowed money the debt grows but the money supply does not.  The money created is never enough to get us out of debt.

Instead I get answers like "greed" and when asked to explain further, Sam refuses.  Either that, or one simple word explains exactly how the banking system is robbing the people of all of their hard earned wealth.  All I want to see is for people to do their own independent research based on facts and try to gain a better understanding of how our monetary system works.  Who it works for, and what we can do to improve our monetary system.  Instead all I see is people sitting around talking about what the banking system is doing/going to do to us.  It's like having a bully punching you in the face, he hit me, he just broke my jaw, my eye, my eye, can someone help, he's about to ......  How about we start talking about what we are going to do to fix our monetary system?  How about we start talking about taking the power and control over money away from the bankers and putting it into the hands of the people.

Instead most people are just want to sit around and wait for someone else to fix the money system so that it works to our benifit.  I'm sorry people but if you think the banking system is going to change to start to work for our benifit out of the goodness of their hearts you're living in a dream land.  if you think the friendly banker, and his friendly lawyer are your friends, just wait until they decide to pull back the money supply on you.  You'll soon find out that your friendly banker and friendly lawyers aren't so friendly anymore.  It's going to take people like to you, You, and YOU to start to question everything you ever thought you knew about money.  To start to take action, start caring about what we are going to do to fix this monetary system.

Or, in time, this banking system will hurt you to.

Either that or we can just sit by and watch our country get destroyed because we as a people decided that letting a group a parasitic bankers run and rule everything in the world to their benifit is ok.

If you don't care enough to start fixing our monetary system, then all I ask is that you not complain when this banking system finally hurts you, which happens to everyone in time.  If you don't have the balls or the guts to stand up and fight for your neighbor, then how can you expect your neighbor to fight for you.  Where were you when your very country depended on you?

Lets just face the facts that this very system is designed to steal everything from all of us....in time. 

Who cares how they got into the position of doing what they do.  Lets start focusing on what we can do to fix it.

 

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Re: The question all americans should ask themselves.

Thomas,

I once heard a saying "Complaining without offering solutions is the definition of bitching".

When Dogs suggest you "fish or cut bait" I think he was looking to get your solution, not more bitching - and no offense to you - we all do it. I've been following this thread quietly for the most part, because I'm not sure what you're after. If you want people to realize these banksters are intent on robbing us blind... well, I don't think you're enlightening anyone here. We're all pretty keen on that.
This is not a situation where the devil is in the details; it's blatantly obvious to anyone with a modicum of consciousness. Understanding the anatomy of the situation is likewise futile. It will be important to frame future solutions with understanding of our present calamity, but beyond that, it's tantamount to understanding the dynamics of a nuclear blast; most people don't really need to know the physics behind the blast, so long as they understand that everything in the blast radius is damned.

So what's the solution?

The solution is to buy as little as possible. Generate as little tax revenue as possible, and produce enough to preclude dependance on a government. Find a community that's "on board" with that concept. Making changes in our personal lives is the only way we can really mitigate this castrophe.

Finally, I think it's important to understand that what is being stolen here is twofold:
- Currency
- Livelihood

They're not taking our wealth, our quality of life or our families. Just turning our livelihood into currency, then finding ways to take it. The more dependant on the government we are for basic services, the more they can take.

No one is arguing that we live under a pyramid scheme that's sole purpose is to grow fat on the backs of others. But your analogy:

Quote:

It's like having a bully punching you in the face, he hit me, he just broke my jaw, my eye, my eye, can someone help, he's about to ......  How about we start talking about what we are going to do to fix our monetary system?

How about we start talking about how to create a situation where the bully is outgunned, outnumbered and unwelcome?

Cheers,

Aaron

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Re: The question all americans should ask themselves.

Thomas,

I once heard a saying "Complaining without offering solutions is the definition of bitching".

When Dogs suggest you "fish or cut bait" I think he was looking to get your solution, not more bitching - and no offense to you - we all do it. I've been following this thread quietly for the most part, because I'm not sure what you're after. If you want people to realize these banksters are intent on robbing us blind... well, I don't think you're enlightening anyone here. We're all pretty keen on that.
This is not a situation where the devil is in the details; it's blatantly obvious to anyone with a modicum of consciousness. Understanding the anatomy of the situation is likewise futile. It will be important to frame future solutions with understanding of our present calamity, but beyond that, it's tantamount to understanding the dynamics of a nuclear blast; most people don't really need to know the physics behind the blast, so long as they understand that everything in the blast radius is damned.

So what's the solution?

The solution is to buy as little as possible. Generate as little tax revenue as possible, and produce enough to preclude dependance on a government. Find a community that's "on board" with that concept. Making changes in our personal lives is the only way we can really mitigate this castrophe.

Finally, I think it's important to understand that what is being stolen here is twofold:
- Currency
- Livelihood

They're not taking our wealth, our quality of life or our families. Just turning our livelihood into currency, then finding ways to take it. The more dependant on the government we are for basic services, the more they can take.

No one is arguing that we live under a pyramid scheme that's sole purpose is to grow fat on the backs of others. But your analogy:

Quote:

It's like having a bully punching you in the face, he hit me, he just broke my jaw, my eye, my eye, can someone help, he's about to ......  How about we start talking about what we are going to do to fix our monetary system?

 

How about we start talking about how to create a situation where the bully is outgunned, outnumbered and unwelcome?

Cheers,

Aaron

 

Aaron Moyer,

My friends and I are trying to push a law through the state of Minnesota right now.  Here is the link to it.

https://www.revisor.leg.state.mn.us/bin/bldbill.php?bill=H0888.0.html&session=ls86

I've posted this law/link/started threads about this so many times.

 

If you agree with me that the banks are robbing us bling, please tell me exactly how they are doing it.  Because if you can't explain it to me (and I already know, or I think i do) then how can you explain it to someone who is clueless?  Maybe I'm just trying to gain a better understanding of this monetary system myself.

 

How will spending less get rid of our $57 trillion dollar debt?  Can you please explain to me how we can get rid of our $57 trillion dollar debt?

The bully is outgunned, out numbered and unwelcome, but nobody wants to do anything to him.

 

How is our currency being stolen when 100% of the money belongs to the banking system.  Not one dollar of coin or currency in circulation is owned by the people.  How can the banks steal something that belongs to them, and only them?  They only borrow us the money and never transfer ownership of it.

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