The question all americans should ask themselves.

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Re: The question all americans should ask themselves.

Mike

While I agree that debt cancellation would or could be an ideal, I feel the need to distinguish between what should be done, what can and what will. I believe we are witnessing the failure of complex systems and that any response to our (the) present circumstances would be of a scale and complexity more than sufficient to ensure its failure. TPTB implementation of any strategy is not an appropriate response. If TPTB implemented a policy of debt cancellation we would find the detail of the process overwhelmingly complex and the issues in the detail unresolvable.

Process now owns and totally overwhelms product IMO. System complexity is now so great that only a few insiders really comprehend what is happening and almost all others acquiesce to their inability to comprehend. Leaving self interest running just about everything and our arrival where we are now.

Edit: debt revolt is as good an idea as neighbourhood tribes but neither seem likely to gain widespread acceptance.

Don

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Re: The question all americans should ask themselves.
pir8don wrote:

Edit: debt revolt is as good an idea as neighbourhood tribes but neither seem likely to gain widespread acceptance.

Ya got that right, bro . . . .

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Re: The question all americans should ask themselves.

Doesn't stop us trying though does it ? Perhaps its something about antipodeans or maybe just about people.

Don

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Re: The question all americans should ask themselves.

 

I hadn't given all this economic stuff much thought before running into the Crash Course.... I mean I knew it could not go on, but not why, or at least precisely why, as I now do. I'm a Peak Oil and Limits to Growth man myself, not an economist or share trader!. However, one of the things that the CC did for me was demonstrate that the current debts are not only not repayable, they will NEVER be repaid.... because of PO and LtG. It will be impossible to grow the economy exponentially with ever harder/near impossible resource extraction rates to do it with.

 

Now I realise that TPTB are not acknoweldging this (understatement plus!) but if the debts can never be repaid, why bother making payments now?

As those of you who've been here a while know, I advocate debt cancelation. ALL debts, no ifs no buts.

THEN we could concentrate on the new world order TPTB don't want, a sustainable zero growth world order.

There's going to be a lot of chaos between now and then. AFAIC, debtd cancelation is 100% inevitable, as sure as the sun will rise in the East tomorrow... so creating chaos by not servicing debts to force the issue is a non event. We need to force the issue, we need critical mass to do this.

As I have often said in the past on this site, we have enough cars to last until the oil runs out, so all the bankrupt car companies should be converted to manufacturing sustainable energy technologies, schools should stop teaching business and teach Permaculture/sustainable farming/agriculture instead.

This can only happen if we cancel the debts. THEN we can restructure society.

Mike.

<.blockquote>

 

 

+1!

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Re: The question all americans should ask themselves.

Hi Don,

As you know, I've written many times about system complexities, and I agree with you...  however, the coming new world order will HAVE TO BE simple, we cannot continue on this path.  The process needs no detail...  cancel debts, zero outstanding, you don't even need to print bank statements!

Mike

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Re: The question all americans should ask themselves.

Canceling the debt is not without precedent in other societies. The link happens to be a biblical reference, but it has been practiced in many older societies. It is not my intent to introduce religion into this thread, it was simply the first link google popped up. I'm am struggling to understand how it can happen in the US with the system we have in place. As Don has correctly pointed out, the complexity is overwhelming.

Thomas has contacted me back-channel, and I am formally requesting that he put his idea to the group for consideration. Since we have not discussed it much, I do not understand the reason he has not done so already, but I will respect his privacy and only encourage him to post his thoughts here to add to the debate.

While this is not his central argument, a similar line of reasoning is what Minnesota is attempting to do with firearms legislation.

Quote:

On May 7th, State Representative Tom Emmer [R-Delano] introduced the “Firearms Freedom Act,” legislation that will protect firearm owners and manufacturers in Minnesota from federal government restrictions on the lawful exercise of Second Amendment rights.

“For far too long elected officials and unelected bureaucrats at the federal level have passively forgotten or actively neglected the Tenth Amendment that guarantees rights not enumerated in the Constitution be left to the individual states,” said Rep. Emmer. “The willful disregard of the Tenth Amendment in relation to a citizen’s right to bear arms isn’t the only constitutional infringement that we should be worried about, but it is one that has been singled out by the new administration.”

The bill would exempt any personal firearm, firearm accessory or ammunition that is manufactured commercially or privately in Minnesota and that remains within the boundaries of the state from federal law or regulation; including registration.

“The federal government shouldn’t be keeping track of citizens that are lawfully exercising their Second Amendment rights,” said Rep. Emmer. “Now, more than ever, citizens need be vigilant when it comes to protecting their individual liberties.”

source

Essentially, states are giving the federal govt the boot in matters they should not be in via legislation. I can see strong conservative states like Texas leading the way here too. Peter Schiff is toying with the idea of displacing Dodd as Senator in CT, so we even have hope in the more liberal states with the proper support.

The consequences of all states taking back the power that was originally afforded them in the constitution and slowly eroded away has definite merit. It is a way to starve the US govt back to it's proper size. Can it work?

Rog

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Re: The question all americans should ask themselves.
Aaron Moyer wrote:

Lets be realistic - we cannot dissolve the FED any more than we can cure cancer.

The only measures are preventitive ones. Now, like a terminal disesase, the FED will feed off us until our nation is nothing more than a corpse.

Cheers,

Aaron

 

OK,

A serious post from me now.

The above statement may be more profound than you realized.There are many, many reasons why we can't do either. There are persons thinking they are doing a good thing on both fronts.

Ending credit use is the only way to decrease the effects of the banks. The problem is as everyone has pointed out, "modern" live can't exist without the bank credit. Just like cancer treatment can't be successful without drugs.

 

FWIW - C.

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Re: The question all americans should ask themselves.

Hey Ready,

Montana have already passed an identical bill to the one you're describing from Minnesota. In particular they reference that any firearm or ammunition manufactured, and owned in Montana is not subject to Federal Restriction, or BATFE, and does not require any federal taxation (read $200 stamp). It further states that the only way that any firearm regulation falls into Federal regulation is by export to another state or country when it does fall into interstate trade regulation as defined in the COTUS.

I'll also have to check where the State Sovereignty bills are for the 32 or so states were reading them (although the session is complete for this period). NH I know had at least one reading, although WA state was introduced and came to a screeching halt. My suspicion is that a lot of these were killed for TARP's TARL's or whatever acronym is now in current parlance in DC.

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Re: The question all americans should ask themselves.

Yup, Aaron is a pretty profound guy, no doubt about it.

I would however point out that it might be done for us by economic pressures from without. If the USD fails as every fiat currency in exsistence has, the Federal Reserve Note is the only real product provided by the Fed, and I seriously doubt Americans would allow the Fed into power a second time in that scenario. China is calling for US Treasuries to be denominated in the yuan, only $300M at first of course, but if we let this happen, we are on a fast track to loosing the FRN as the reserve currency.

My drive is to find a solution (that I will be first to say may not exist) that does not include a collapse of the dollar as the force to end the Fed. Easy as falling off a log, huh?

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Re: The question all americans should ask themselves.

rog

Quote:

Essentially, states are giving the federal govt the boot in matters they should not be in via legislation. I can see strong conservative states like Texas leading the way here too. Peter Schiff is toying with the idea of displacing Dodd as Senator in CT, so we even have hope in the more liberal states with the proper support.

Speculating that Chris Dodd might be beatable is plausible, but by Peter Schiff?  That isn't gonna happen.  Like it or not, Schiff's politics are too far outside the mainstream to have a chance.  He isn't known outside the relatively small group of people who are aware that he called the current crisis partially correctly, albeit early enough that a lot of his investors took a bath.  Besides, he has no TV appeal.

Quote:

The consequences of all states taking back the power that was originally afforded them in the constitution and slowly eroded away has definite merit. It is a way to starve the US govt back to it's proper size. Can it work?

No, you are essentially advocating the states throwing away our system of Federal laws, i.e. the Constitution as it has evolved over the past couple centuries.  The last time we had such a rebellion it failed in a spectacularly bloody way.  Today's culture would not permit such a thing.  My guess is that any state gov't that tried would soon be replaced by its citizens.  This isn't the 18th or 19th century.

That is, of course, assuming our economy doesn't completely collapse into a Mad Max world.  Then, all bets are off, but I don't think that's possible either.

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Re: The question all americans should ask themselves.

Gungnir,

On the Near Term Gold Thread, jrf29 just posted this in reference to the power to coin money:

jrf29 wrote:

This has been circulating for a while, and has even been repeated by Rep. Ron Paul, among others.  When the constitution speaks of "the States" it does so in distinction from the government of the Union.  This becomes clear when one reads the constitution.  For example: "The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States . . ."  The "gold and silver" clause also prohibits the states from coining money, a power which is given to the federal government.

Therefore when the federal constitution says, "that the States shall not" such and such, it is referring to the states as opposed to the federal government.  So, for provisions binding on the federal congress, we are left only with Article I, Section 8, Clause 5, which states:

"The Congress shall have Power…To coin Money [and emit securities (clause 6)], regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin, and fix the Standard of Weights and Measures." 

One is therefore left to consider what was meant by the phrase "to coin money."  No doubt there is enough vaguery in this clause to allow the Supreme Court to find that "money" can be anything the Congress wants it to be, regardless of whether that is what was the original intent.

There is another possibility:  the idea of paper currency existed at the time, and it was considered a progressive idea.  It is possible that the founding fathers wished to leave the issue intentionally vague.  Every word in the constitution was scrutinized carefully, and therefore it can be assumed that it was no accident that the constitution prohibited the states from doing something, but not the federal government.  It would have been just as easy to say: "No State, nor the United States, shall make anything but gold and silver coin a tender..."

It isn't the founding fathers' fault that our most recent paper money system isn't working out very well.  Of course, a good part of the problem (as everybody here knows) is not merely the fact that we use paper money, but that we use a bizarre form of paper money which is loaned into existence at interest and is irredeemable into specie.  Surely the founding fathers anticipated no such thing.  But, the door was left open enough for us to get ourselves into deep trouble.

Where's the wiggle room for local currencies, or perhaps State based currencies that are not debt based? Care to join the debate jrf29?

 

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Re: The question all americans should ask themselves.
Doug wrote:

Speculating that Chris Dodd might be beatable is plausible, but by Peter Schiff?  That isn't gonna happen.  Like it or not, Schiff's politics are too far outside the mainstream to have a chance.  He isn't known outside the relatively small group of people who are aware that he called the current crisis partially correctly, albeit early enough that a lot of his investors took a bath.  Besides, he has no TV appeal.

Peter Schiff and Chris Dodd are not the issue here. I'm sorry to have brought it up if it derails the conversation.

Doug wrote:

No, you are essentially advocating the states throwing away our system of Federal laws, i.e. the Constitution as it has evolved over the past couple centuries.  The last time we had such a rebellion it failed in a spectacularly bloody way.  Today's culture would not permit such a thing.  My guess is that any state gov't that tried would soon be replaced by its citizens.  This isn't the 18th or 19th century.

That is, of course, assuming our economy doesn't completely collapse into a Mad Max world.  Then, all bets are off, but I don't think that's possible either.

Doug, it's already happening. See Gungnir's post above.

Rog

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Re: The question all americans should ask themselves.
Doug wrote:

No, you are essentially advocating the states throwing away our system of Federal laws, i.e. the Constitution as it has evolved over the past couple centuries.  The last time we had such a rebellion it failed in a spectacularly bloody way.  Today's culture would not permit such a thing.  My guess is that any state gov't that tried would soon be replaced by its citizens.  This isn't the 18th or 19th century.

That is, of course, assuming our economy doesn't completely collapse into a Mad Max world.  Then, all bets are off, but I don't think that's possible either.

Actually I don't think that throwing away the Constitution is happening, I actually think that the reverse is true.

Quote from Benjamin Franklin when asked what form of government the Founding Fathers created

"A republic, if you can keep it"

Unfortunately since Lincoln, there has been a progressive Federalist movement, with power in the Constitution that was vested to States and the people progressively being usurped by DC. If you read, the COTUS and look at how the US is currently run, you can see the disparity of what is done at the Federal Level vs. what the Federal Level was intended to be. Remember that in general the COTUS was government restriction, except where explicitly vesting power. I do not think that the original intent of the founding fathers was for the current form of government we have, indeed if you look back 120 years or so that was much more of the form of Government that was intended.

The Federal Government has been gradually eroding the rights of the People and States since the late 19th Century, and a return of those rights is long overdue. So if anyone is destroying the COTUS it's the Federal Government. Examples Assault weapons ban 1986, Patriot Act, no-warrant wiretaps, reduction in burden of proof for warrants for search and seizure, no knock search warrants. These impact the 1st, 2nd, 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th amendments at a minimum. Now we have a Solicitor general backed by the President who is stating that the Chrysler liquidation appeal is beyond the scope of the Supreme Court, by who's authority? Certainly not the Constitution. Since the Presidency and the Supreme Court are independent (or should be).

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Re: The question all americans should ask themselves.
Gungnir wrote:

Actually I don't think that throwing away the Constitution is happening, I actually think that the reverse is true.

Quote from Benjamin Franklin when asked what form of government the Founding Fathers created

"A republic, if you can keep it"

+1!

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Re: The Man is No Fool, after All . . . . .
Damnthematrix wrote:

All you need to do is stop servicing your debts.  If 20% of the people did this, TPTB's cashflow would be terminally destroyed, they wouldn't even have the cash to pursue foreclosures, and let's not forget all the credit cards that are unsecured.  They'd be on their knees in days...

Mike

I have to agree with Ready, that this solution is just a little too simplistic. The government is just going to use tax money to bail them out... which is still your money. You'd end up servicing the debts anyway, just in the form of taxes instead. This is illustrated, to a degree, in the fact that if part of your mortgage is forgiven in a foreclosure/short-sale deal you have to claim that as personal income for tax purposes.

Now, if we all stopped servicing our debts AND stopped paying taxes at the same time, it might have an impact... but it's going to take more than 20% of the population for the IRS to be overwhelmed and back off. Creditors can't throw you in jail for default, but the IRS can!

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Re: The question all americans should ask themselves.

We understand it is happening. We understand it shouldnt be happening. Isnt the real question why are we allowing it to happen?

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Re: The question all americans should ask themselves.

We understand it is happening. We understand it shouldnt be happening. Isnt the real question why are we allowing it to happen?

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Re: The Man is No Fool, after All . . . . .
Damnthematrix wrote:

All you need to do is stop servicing your debts.  If 20% of the people did this, TPTB's cashflow would be terminally destroyed, they wouldn't even have the cash to pursue foreclosures, and let's not forget all the credit cards that are unsecured.  They'd be on their knees in days...

Mike

I have to agree with Ready, that this solution is just a little too simplistic. The government is just going to use tax money to bail them out... which is still your money. You'd end up servicing the debts anyway, just in the form of taxes instead. This is illustrated, to a degree, in the fact that if part of your mortgage is forgiven in a foreclosure/short-sale deal you have to claim that as personal income for tax purposes.

Now, if we all stopped servicing our debts AND stopped paying taxes at the same time, it might have an impact... but it's going to take more than 20% of the population for the IRS to be overwhelmed and back off. Creditors can't throw you in jail for default, but the IRS can!

__________________

“Those who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security deserve neither liberty nor security” - Benjamin Franklin

"Selfishness is not living as one wishes to live, it is asking others to live as one wishes to live." - Oscar Wilde

How will this get rid of the outstanding 57 trillion dollar debt that we collectively owe?

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Re: The question all americans should ask themselves.

Mike (Damthematrix) said:  All you need to do is stop servicing your debts.  If 20% of the people did this, TPTB's cashflow would be terminally destroyed, they wouldn't even have the cash to pursue foreclosures, and let's not forget all the credit cards that are unsecured.  They'd be on their knees in days...

Mike, I think you have some legal precedent in suggesting that we stop paying our debts.  I think we have a strong case for "odious debt" that should not be repaid.

Wikipedia - In international law, odious debt is a legal theory which holds that the national debt incurred by a regime for purposes that do not serve the best interests of the nation, such as wars of aggression, should not be enforceable. Such debts are thus considered by this doctrine to be personal debts of the regime that incurred them and not debts of the state. In some respects, the concept is analogous to the invalidity of contracts signed under coercion.

Larry

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Re: The question all americans should ask themselves.

Another option that doesn't require risking civil litigation is pulling your debt-based "money" from banks.  If a good enough percentage of people did this, the entire basis for the fractional reserve system would disappear.  Without a serious effort to lead such a campaign it's not going to happen because the masses (including me for the time being) are blindly dependent on their debit/credit cards for their very lives...Chase is putting millions into marketing in WA as they lockup more of their retail duopoly (with BoA) across the country putting out of business the smaller banks that haven't been bought up already with TARP funds...grandson David is just as fierce as the original JD Rockefeller about competition...it's tough to compete against the Wall St marketing machine.  And even if a lot of people tried to pull all their funds from banks the mafioso government would try to find a way to stop it.  

So another option is pulling a percentage, say half, of your "money" from commercial banks and converting it into hard assets and sustainable living plans while it still has notional value. I think that's the hidden power of the CM plan...it disempowers the monetary system as a side effect...everybody reducing their deposits by 50% is the same as 50% of the population completely pulling out of the banking system.  It's clear the Fed, Treasury, IRS would try to find a way to stop this too.  But it has staying power...new community is formed, less dependency, more standing for a "voice," a base of operations from which to live without the federal empire system.

Separate/related topic:  by the way, speaking of Wall St / Rockefeller's fierce monopolist drive and how the Chase/BoA duopoly is really a monopoly, nobody happened to notice that Lewis was recently replaced as Chairman of Bank of America by a key CFR guy Walter Massey.  Just a random coincidence?  Right.  He looks a man of the South like Bank of America always was, but he's very much in the NY establishment (doesn't mean he's sinister..he's just like all the other over-achieving types who pursue wealth/power/status...to get it, you gotta pursue Wall St interests...low-level college grads do it by moving to Wall St and signing their lives away to prove their mettle, higher-level guys in other industries/govt/military/academia do it by playing the game in a way that gets them invited into the CFR).  So let's see--Citi, JPMChase, BoA--the 3 mega banks that are strategically chosen by the Fed to emerge as the lords over the financial world by getting trillions from us to survive, expand (see Chase's marketing in WA), and buy-up the small guys and other key assets like Merrill & Countrywide that give the big banks financial control over the lives of millions of individuals by controlling their assets and mortgages have always been primarily controlled by Wall St interests and a tiny clique of rich guys and they are also now all publicly run by CFR members.  The operating officers aren't as important as the controllers/owners behind the scenes, but now that they're all CFR, it's more obvious what this entire collapse, bailout, restructuring plan is all about. On TV it appears the plan is being run by the government.  Government officials are too clueless.  It's very obvious who they're getting their marching orders from and who Bernanke talks to in the Fed meetings that have always been secret.  Draw your own conclusions about what's really happening here and why it's being done.  

Perhaps that last para should be a separate post.  I don't want to detract from the discussion happening here, but I think it's key to understand that stuff.

 

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Re: The question all americans should ask themselves.

Well, based on the fact that some of the strongest minds on this site, as well as those I have consulted off this site have come up with no workable solution, it seems that

Aaron Moyer wrote:

This is analogious to being angry and threatening to break into the cockpit of a plane in a tailspin, because you blame the pilots for the impending crash.

Might be smarter to keep your nearest exit in mind.

Lets be realistic - we cannot dissolve the FED any more than we can cure cancer.

The only measures are preventitive ones. Now, like a terminal disesase, the FED will feed off us until our nation is nothing more than a corpse.

Appears to be true. Sad, but true.

 

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Re: The question all americans should ask themselves.
Ready wrote:

Well, based on the fact that some of the strongest minds on this site, as well as those I have consulted off this site have come up with no workable solution, it seems that

Aaron Moyer wrote:

This is analogious to being angry and threatening to break into the cockpit of a plane in a tailspin, because you blame the pilots for the impending crash.

Might be smarter to keep your nearest exit in mind.

Lets be realistic - we cannot dissolve the FED any more than we can cure cancer.

The only measures are preventitive ones. Now, like a terminal disesase, the FED will feed off us until our nation is nothing more than a corpse.

Appears to be true. Sad, but true.

 

Not to quibble, but an exit won't do you much good if your plane is in a tailspin . . . . And, frankly, I think there were quite a few constructive ideas . . . . . And, as long as we're picking this apart, well, there are cures for cancer, they're just not found within the realm of mainstream medicine. 

It's OK with me if you choose a fatalistic view, but I would suggest that a number of folks have made it clear that there are other options.  So many, in fact, that I have nothing to add, so it's off to the garden with me. . . . .

 

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Re: The question all americans should ask themselves.

Well, based on the fact that some of the strongest minds on this site, as well as those I have consulted off this site have come up with no workable solution, it seems that

 

Aaron Moyer wrote:

 

This is analogious to being angry and threatening to break into the cockpit of a plane in a tailspin, because you blame the pilots for the impending crash.

Might be smarter to keep your nearest exit in mind.

Lets be realistic - we cannot dissolve the FED any more than we can cure cancer.

The only measures are preventitive ones. Now, like a terminal disesase, the FED will feed off us until our nation is nothing more than a corpse.

 

 

Appears to be true. Sad, but true.

If it's the debt that is ruining our economy, then how about we introduce some debt free money into circulation?

And that is exactly what the bill we have in the Minnesota house and senate would do if we could get enough people to put enough pressure on their elected represenatives and force it's passage.

https://www.revisor.leg.state.mn.us/bin/bldbill.php?bill=H0888.0.html&session=ls86

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Re: The question all americans should ask themselves.

As I have said (can't remember if it was in one of our private stints or here now) money is destroyed when debts are paid off.  However, if we canceled the debts, the cash lying around today would remain, or should remain, where it is, right now, in circulation.

In a simpler society, which is exactly where we're heading like it or not, we may not even need money.  I barter all the time in my life, labor for stuff (food usually) mostly.  And we don't even 'keep tabs'....  I help you today, you help me tomorrow kind of attitude.

Money and keeping tabs is so old worldly to me now.....! :-)

Mike

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Re: The question all americans should ask themselves.

C1oud, try to see the thought being conveyed rather than picking apart the language or analogy. I'm sure you know this is not about areodynmics, cancer, or mainstream medicine.

As to the constructive ideas, there was no workable plan presented, only desired states and discussion of what would be nice to do, but how it is unrealistic due to TPTB. I have tried to remain open minded and offered support for plans that I did not understand, but the end result is that there seems precious little real work can be done at this time. Any tax revolt, credit revolt, run on the banks, or other versions of this I think (as do most of the other posters who present them) will be ineffective because of the lack of scale and likely response by the Fed, IRS, etc. I for one do not intend to loose my farm to make a point unless there are about 100M other Americans doing the same thing simultaneously. I realize this means we have more work to do with education, but as I have said, the timeframe seems to be against us. Action is required yesterday. Strabes made a good piont about living the CM lifestyle, but I think (most of us) are already doing this, and so far it hasn't caused a blip on the radar of the Fed. Too few of us to matter.

Thomas, how do you respond to #71? On the surface it seems as if the constitution forbids what you propose. I do not pretend to be a constitutional scholar, so I am only going by what I have been told by people who are. Also, you ask if it is debt that is ruining our economy, and I think that might be an overly simplistic answer, but it is certainly a part of it.

 

This thread seemed to head down the path of fractional reserve and the Fed as the root of all problems. I say even if we were to abolish both, we would still be at (or slightly after, or slightly before depending on your point of view) peak oil. We would still be vastly overpopulated. Copper would still be running out fast. All 3 E's work together.

I suppose my view is fatalistic, but I personally believe the next leg down is weeks away, and a major displacing event will happen in 2009, with a pretty big storm in 2010. I simply think we are out of time for us little people to make a difference. Writing to congress and attempting to pass laws seems a slow and arduous process that seldom results in the desired outcome. I do believe that the Fed will become extinct, but it will not be by our hand, it will be because it's FRN becomes worthless, and is replaced as the world reserve currency. What I am looking towards at this point is what then? I hope we Americans are both smart and motivated enough to prevent the Fed from rearing it's head again in any form. I suppose this is where the continued populous education has merit, but I fail to see the opportunity to prevent what is coming.

Just take a moment, even if you disagree with me on the timing, most folks here think the USD is headed for hard times. If we are powerless to stop it, perhaps we need a new Jefferson, Adams, Franklin, and cast of others to build what comes next.

What comes next? This is where my focus is, not in trying to prevent a series of events that were put in place since the early 1900s. Forgive me if it seems I have given up, it really only seems that way.

This thread is absolutely the most I have posted on in well over a month. I wanted to give it one more try to see if there was something that could actually be done other than complain and point out the errors in our society. I have to keep coming back to the fact that the best way to spend our time right now is in preparation for what is to come, whatever that means to you. For me, that means heading out to the garden too. The rain has finally stopped and it's time to get back to work.

Best to all, thanks for all the input. Thomas, excellent thread. I hope I am 100% wrong and we still have time to educate the public and make a change before a meltdown occurs. I applaud your work.

Rog

 

Thomas Hedin's picture
Thomas Hedin
Status: Platinum Member (Offline)
Joined: Jan 28 2009
Posts: 815
Re: The question all americans should ask themselves.

As I have said (can't remember if it was in one of our private stints or here now) money is destroyed when debts are paid off.  However, if we canceled the debts, the cash lying around today would remain, or should remain, where it is, right now, in circulation.

In a simpler society, which is exactly where we're heading like it or not, we may not even need money.  I barter all the time in my life, labor for stuff (food usually) mostly.  And we don't even 'keep tabs'....  I help you today, you help me tomorrow kind of attitude.

Money and keeping tabs is so old worldly to me now.....! :-)

Mike

Mike is correct, money is created when loans are issued and debts incurred; money is EXTINGUISHED when loans are repaid. 

Lets say we cancel the debts of everyone and leave the money in circulation.  What are we going to do to put more money into circulation? 

 

Damnthematrix's picture
Damnthematrix
Status: Diamond Member (Offline)
Joined: Aug 10 2008
Posts: 3998
Re: The question all americans should ask themselves.

Thomas, you only need "more money into circulation" if the economy is growing.  As I see it, growth is finished, Peak Everything will see to that, and in the short term to boot.  All this talk of green shoots is plain BS...

So without growth, we won't need more money, there's plenty there!  We do quite nicely with very little money, and the Matris is STILL operating...!

Mike

Thomas Hedin's picture
Thomas Hedin
Status: Platinum Member (Offline)
Joined: Jan 28 2009
Posts: 815
Re: The question all americans should ask themselves.

Thomas, you only need "more money into circulation" if the economy is growing.  As I see it, growth is finished, Peak Everything will see to that, and in the short term to boot.  All this talk of green shoots is plain BS...

So without growth, we won't need more money, there's plenty there!  We do quite nicely with very little money, and the Matris is STILL operating...!

Mike

Now what about our trade deficite?  With a total money supply of 7.7 trillion dollars it would take but just a few short years to run out of money.  What then? 

Gungnir's picture
Gungnir
Status: Platinum Member (Offline)
Joined: Mar 2 2009
Posts: 643
Re: The question all americans should ask themselves.
Ready wrote:

<snip>

I suppose my view is fatalistic, but I personally believe the next leg down is weeks away, and a major displacing event will happen in 2009, with a pretty big storm in 2010. I simply think we are out of time for us little people to make a difference. Writing to congress and attempting to pass laws seems a slow and arduous process that seldom results in the desired outcome. I do believe that the Fed will become extinct, but it will not be by our hand, it will be because it's FRN becomes worthless, and is replaced as the world reserve currency. What I am looking towards at this point is what then? I hope we Americans are both smart and motivated enough to prevent the Fed from rearing it's head again in any form. I suppose this is where the continued populous education has merit, but I fail to see the opportunity to prevent what is coming.

Just take a moment, even if you disagree with me on the timing, most folks here think the USD is headed for hard times. If we are powerless to stop it, perhaps we need a new Jefferson, Adams, Franklin, and cast of others to build what comes next.

What comes next? This is where my focus is, not in trying to prevent a series of events that were put in place since the early 1900s. Forgive me if it seems I have given up, it really only seems that way.

Best to all, thanks for all the input. Thomas, excellent thread. I hope I am 100% wrong and we still have time to educate the public and make a change before a meltdown occurs. I applaud your work.

Rog

Rog I actually think your right on both timings. I think we're going to see interest rates increasing later this year, since the 30 year Treasury bills are being pressured to increase their rates of returns (No one is buying, other than 2 year bills). Now the big storm hits in 2010, it's simply this, people took out loans 5 year ARMS in 2000 to finance their properties, in 2005 when the property bubble was about peaking, they refinanced, and withdrew some equity, next refinance 2010. So at that time, (assuming interest rates climb) they're going to re-finance to a higher introductory rate anyway, or get hit with a higher mortgage payment. I expect to see a rash of reposessions at that time, where the interest payments are killing people, either in their refinanced ARM or their now variable rate Mortgage. Of course this drives down the housing market further, and depresses the economy further.

Now are we powerless to stop it? I actually think that we are, because people don't want to listen, they're optimistic they believe Barack Obama and Joe Biden saying the worst is over, but it's not yet. I don't think that I'll get much argument around here about that statement. Here's a good example, a friend of mine has decided to hold on to his house for another year because by then the housing market will have recovered, this is a smart guy, not an idiot, and he's drinking the proverbial Kool-Aid. I don't think that people really understand that life will need to be changing rapidly and drastically in the next 5-10 years. What's more is that when the majority of the people decry bail outs and the house bills are still passed for the bail out, isn't that the very essence of tyranny, the loss of rule by the people, for the people?

So to the new Founding Fathers, where are they, I'm not sure, they might be here, I could be one, who knows, I can't see into the future but I can extrapolate, and I think that we might see a new US which might return to it's original principles, or eliminate them, as yet that is to be decided by the people.

Anyway, I'm shortly going to be in full time preparation mode, got two weeks left earning a living before heading for the hills and bugging out. I think that by the end of the year we can see whether my predictions of gloom and doom come to fruition.

Peace

PlicketyCat's picture
PlicketyCat
Status: Platinum Member (Offline)
Joined: Feb 26 2009
Posts: 680
Re: The question all americans should ask themselves.

Well, here's my anaolgy FWIW. Our current system is like a very old, dilapidated building. We've got plumbing problems, electrical problems, HVAC problems, structural problems, mold and mildew. and infestations of all other manner of pests.

So, we have two options:

1) We spend a whole ot of time, resources, money and effort replacing, cleaning, shoring up, disinfecting and fumigating and hope that we can recover a usable building. Or...

2) We rip the whole darned thing down, reclaim what's still usable, burn all the infected/infested stuff, and build a brand new building that we can be reasonably assured will be usuable.

Which one sounds more effective and efficient?

If we let the current system "crash and burn" we can reclaim what's still usable and build something "new" that works.

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