Plane Crash Suspect's Online Diatribe

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Plane Crash Suspect's Online Diatribe

This is definately worth reading.

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/years/2010/0218102stack1.html

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Re: Plane Crash Suspect's Online Diatribe

Denninger's accurate take on this.

"Should the people come to the conclusion that The Government is in fact a felon - should there be no enforcement at the state level, no real move to "take back" authority vested in The Constitution, returning it to the states and to rein in the crooks, subjecting them to the just desserts for their crimes, there is a very real risk that The People will decide that there is only one way to obtain justice: through the actions of their own hand."

http://market-ticker.org/archives/1976-This-Is-How-It-Begins-Wanton-Violence.html

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Re: Plane Crash Suspect's Online Diatribe

wow.

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Re: Plane Crash Suspect's Online Diatribe
MarkM wrote:

Denninger's accurate take on this.

"Should the people come to the conclusion that The Government is in fact a felon - should there be no enforcement at the state level, no real move to "take back" authority vested in The Constitution, returning it to the states and to rein in the crooks, subjecting them to the just desserts for their crimes, there is a very real risk that The People will decide that there is only one way to obtain justice: through the actions of their own hand."

http://market-ticker.org/archives/1976-This-Is-How-It-Begins-Wanton-Violence.html

double wow!

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Re: Plane Crash Suspect's Online Diatribe

As just watch to where the blame will be directed!

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I wonder how many more pissed off people like him know how to fly planes.....

Mike

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Re: Plane Crash Suspect's Online Diatribe

Wow. Powerful read. While I think his seemingly pro-communism, anti-capitalist sign-off at the end demonstrates a misunderstanding of some fundamental concepts, he certainly seems intelligent and thoughtful. You gotta think that this is going to start happening more and more often.

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Re: Plane Crash Suspect's Online Diatribe

When I heard about this and read what the guy wrote, I was immediately reminded of the oft-repeated words of Gerald Celente: "When people lose everything and they have nothing left to lose, they lose it."

I am not here to defend the guy, nor am I trying to reinvent Anthony's oration: But the pragmatic approach would be to try to understand what was going on with this guy. Simply put, I am certain that his sentiments in this country are not unique. And his level of desperation is not unique. He just reached a breaking point before the others. Of course, since our leaders are mostly egotists, they will not be able to admit that while this man's actions were inappropriate, his concerns just *might possibly* have been legitimate. Likely, though, he will be labeled as "fringe," "crazy," "a total loner," etc. to distract attention from the reasons for his concerns. This very response would virtually ensure that others follow in his footsteps, tragic though it may be.

It is the same way with more typical "terrorism." Is it possible that there is at least just a little reason behind the attacks on us? We're told the terrorists hate our freedoms. Perhaps. But I think they probably hate our imperial foreign policy more. This sentiment is confirmed to me by military vets that have been to bases around the world. Again, it might not all be black and white, but that statement cuts both ways as well. Perhaps the best way to reduce terrorism - in all its forms - is to have the humility to confront the root issues and determine if they are worthy of concern or not. This, however, must be done with a spirit of openness and not arrogance. Imagine that.

In short, I'd like to think that our system's (read "status quo") goal is to actually prevent these problems and to help people. But evidence suggests that that is not the case. The vested interests exist largely for the perpetuation of their own power, and will avoid actions that threaten this goal. Rather than this event being the root problem in and of itself, I view it as a manifestation and reflection of the root problems in our society. It is sad to see that we have gotten to this point.

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Re: Plane Crash Suspect's Online Diatribe

I skimmed the manifesto. 

Sounds like he made some decisions that he may have made differently and have been better off. Hind sight is of course 20/20.

For instance, I read he owned the 4 seater. I can't understand how having a private plane can be acceptable to anyone who has had his/her retirement wiped out. Maybe it was a rented plane and the media was off.

Sounds like the IRS was a gotcha, no different then say surviving cancer with crappy insurance and winding up BK.

Sounds like he was mad that the childhood Santa, Tooth-Ferry, Easter-Bunny & Democracy fairytales are exactly that.

In any event I agree with Mike on what Celente says. The idiots at large are going to have to raise taxes as they did during GD-I. When people get pinched I think they are going to end up fitting that Celente mold. But what I have spent a lot of time contemplating is this: Is Celente's equation missing something? A lot of people have lost more than this guy did and not lost it. Does the red pill factor into Celente's equation?

 

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Re: Plane Crash Suspect's Online Diatribe

Davos -

I know you can appreciate the Cheney doctrine: Perception lags reality.

This guy made a number of missteps, yes. But he basically made it sound like his life has sucked for 20 years. Perhaps many of the people out there that have or are in the process of losing everything do not yet perceive the reality of their situation and their prospects for the future that they previously envisioned. If this is the case, then it is a more difficult issue because it can be difficult to predict just when perception will catch back up to reality.

Re: the red pill you speak of: I think disillusionment would be the key word to describe the emotion that people will feel when they eventually learn the truth. And this will test many people like they've never been tested before. This is a looming societal problem that is on the horizon and will be more and more clear as perceptions catch up. There will be more disillusionment with politics, foreign policy, the economy, you name it. Think about the emotions felt by those returning from Vietnam...ouch!

I think we're in the midst of a long term, cultural shift. This could take decades to play out fully. I do hope, however, that individuals like Chris and ourselves can explain this to others and show them a better way before they completely lose it. If everyone starts doing what this man did, society will be much worse off and government will be ironically even more draconian. Intellect, rationality, and pragmatism will win, and this is why I support Chris.

 

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Re: Plane Crash Suspect's Online Diatribe
Mike Pilat wrote:

Davos -

I know you can appreciate the Cheney doctrine: Perception lags reality.

This guy made a number of missteps, yes. But he basically made it sound like his life has sucked for 20 years. Perhaps many of the people out there that have or are in the process of losing everything do not yet perceive the reality of their situation and their prospects for the future that they previously envisioned. If this is the case, then it is a more difficult issue because it can be difficult to predict just when perception will catch back up to reality.

Re: the red pill you speak of: I think disillusionment would be the key word to describe the emotion that people will feel when they eventually learn the truth. And this will test many people like they've never been tested before. This is a looming societal problem that is on the horizon and will be more and more clear as perceptions catch up. There will be more disillusionment with politics, foreign policy, the economy, you name it. Think about the emotions felt by those returning from Vietnam...ouch!

I think we're in the midst of a long term, cultural shift. This could take decades to play out fully. I do hope, however, that individuals like Chris and ourselves can explain this to others and show them a better way before they completely lose it. If everyone starts doing what this man did, society will be much worse off and government will be ironically even more draconian. Intellect, rationality, and pragmatism will win, and this is why I support Chris.

 

+1 Well put Mike!

Yeah, I read that in O'Neill's book, according to him it was actually a guiding principle of that administration. Amazing, pull the wool over their face, we'll be the h*ll out of office by the time they figure it out.

Anyway I agree with what you wrote. My only point was I'm beginning to think Celente left out or missed the disillusionment part of the equation. 

I totally agree that we are at a turning point, Jim Quinn writes a lot about that.

Take care

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Re: Plane Crash Suspect's Online Diatribe

I want to echo the sentiment that Gerald Celente's quote says it all.

But here's the scary part: This particular guy had a Piper Cherokee, which because it's an airplane and rhymes with 9/11 the media will have a field day with. But in truth, we're talking about a 3,000 lb airplane that only goes 140 knots or so. It makes great pictures for the MSM to broadcast and I'm sure he killed a few people with this stunt. But at the end of the day the death toll is going to look like a really bad drunk driver accident, and little more.

So what happens when an ex-special forces military-trained killing machine type of dude "looses everything, has nothing left to loose, and loses it"? I don't know enough about military stuff to estimate what kind of damage someone who knew what they are doing could do, but it would be a hell of a lot worse than this.

What Celente doesn't mention is that this stuff is contagious. When a LOT of people "loose everything and then loose it", it sends an unconscious message to others who are on the edge. Some day this bad attitude stuff is going to spread to a guy who was trained by the U.S. Military on how to take out a city, and he's going to do it.

Certainly, this man's actions should be condemened. But the SOLUTION to the problem is not condemnation of those who loose it. The solution lies in solving the societal problems that are causing so many Americancs to "loose everything and have nothing left to loose".

Erik

 

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Re: Plane Crash Suspect's Online Diatribe

The right is claiming he is the left's fault because of the communism line at the end.

Glenn Beck calls him a murderer and begs that we all realize that violence is not the answer.

The left calls him a domestic terrorist although they agree with most of his diatribe they don't like his murderous tactics.

 

The polarizing parties cannot correlate the apparently opposing views for and against "big" government.  But, many previously middle class americans probably can.   He will not become a poster child for any group because his views are too nuanced.  But, he made the point:  people are mad and some of them aren't going to take it any more.

 

 

 

And:  HMOs need better mental health coverage.

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Re: Plane Crash Suspect's Online Diatribe

What happens when ex-military person goes nuts, he takes a tank for a joyride in the city. (this link was not working earlier but they said they were fixing it)

or

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Re: Plane Crash Suspect's Online Diatribe
rowmat wrote:

As just watch to where the blame will be directed!

At the "terrorists". 

And you know who will be branded terrorists, right? 

Anyone with a big enough mouth to speak out. 

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Re: Plane Crash Suspect's Online Diatribe
ErikTownsend wrote:

 

So what happens when an ex-special forces military-trained killing machine type of dude "looses everything, has nothing left to loose, and loses it"? I don't know enough about military stuff to estimate what kind of damage someone who knew what they are doing could do, but it would be a hell of a lot worse than this.

McVeigh and I don't believe he was Special Forces.

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Re: Plane Crash Suspect's Online Diatribe

Yes, and twenty years down the line, we are going to have Iraqi war veterans that will likely be much more disillusioned than the ones from Nam. From those that I have talked to, "typical" platoons have the majority of members in their early '20s and divorced once already (some twice). Coming back to a shattered economy where there are no jobs and you have permanent disabilities (mental too!) and no family to return to has to be one of the most disillusioning scenarios imaginable. That's not to say that all or even most veterans are in this position, but my sense is that the disillusionment will be far worse than Vietnam.

Like Erik said, the solution is to address and correct a system that often facilitates these sort of events. While this recent man might have been alone in his "solution" to our nation's problems, he is most certainly not alone in his opinion of the identity and severity of the problems.

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Re: Plane Crash Suspect's Online Diatribe

Mike,

Brother - awesome contributions on this thread.
I thoroughally enjoyed your posts.

You said:

Quote:

From those that I have talked to, "typical" platoons have the majority of members in their early '20s and divorced once already (some twice). Coming back to a shattered economy where there are no jobs and you have permanent disabilities (mental too!) and no family to return to has to be one of the most disillusioning scenarios imaginable

This is something that concerns me as well - primarially because of one lingering question in my mind:
"What skills do these men possess that they can use to their benefit?"

As a person in a similar situation (Destroyed family life due to seperation, reintegrating into a broken economy etc) I can say - it really brings you low. Most everyone I know who gets out goes into one of a few different fields:
1. Law Enforcement - which scares me because prosecuting a war is extremely different than acting as a peace officer.

2. Security - Similar to LE, but without the heavy burden.

3. Paramilitary Contracting - Big money, less rules, more operational latitude, this is the one that really concerns me. Building Mercenary forces who are used to essentially "raiding" makes me think serious thoughts about what will happen in a future of scarce resources. What happens when these guys start absorbing deserters with Mortars and light machine guns? 

Obviously speculative, but certainly shapes some of my decisions.

Davos/Erik Townsend,

Quote:

ErikTownsend wrote:

So what happens when an ex-special forces military-trained killing machine type of dude "looses everything, has nothing left to loose, and loses it"? I don't know enough about military stuff to estimate what kind of damage someone who knew what they are doing could do, but it would be a hell of a lot worse than this.

Davos wrote:

McVeigh and I don't believe he was Special Forces.

 McVeigh was an infantryman with the 1st ID.
He was picked up for the Special Forces SFAS (Special Forces Assessment and Selection, IIRC - I'm AF :p) but failed out due to poor PT scores. SOF are selected primarially for their mental toughness. It'd be very difficult to imagine one "snapping", as they tend to be very well composed individuals, with a huge capacity for bulls*** tolerance.

That said, I think the amount of damage a lone rogue could do would quickly hit "dimishing returns" with regards to what they were capable of.
McVeigh, with no real "formal" training killed some 200 people.
Someone who was practically versed and experienced might kill a high number of people, but the "denial" of operational capability that goes along with being hunted by Law Enforcement would limit the kind of terror they could reign.

This is speculation, of course, but unless we were dealing with rouge "groups" of ex-SOF, I doubt you'd see much of a difference.
I'm more concerned about what's going to happen when communities start defending their own from Federal and State Authority. Honestly, I think Former SOF operators might instinctively side with the Guerillas.

If we see a return to the Seige mentality of the Clinton Era, we might well be in for a very ugly decade.
I shudder to think.

Cheers,

Aaron

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Re: Plane Crash Suspect's Online Diatribe

Aaron. 

Here's one scenario for the SHTF in terms of civil unrest. 

If federal and/or state authorities start "picking up" and detaining people on the net for their views, under the guise of pre-emptive action, then I think all holy hell will break loose. 

Right now the net is serving as a huge venting mechanism, even though it might simultaneously be encouraging some. Nevertheless, take away the steam valve and I think Dante's Inferno gets unleashed.

God, I pray not. 

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Re: Plane Crash Suspect's Online Diatribe

Frustrated Owner Bulldozes Home Ahead Of Foreclosure

http://www.wlwt.com/news/22600154/detail.html

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Most people will go through their lives and accept what is happening as "normal". Inflation is normal. The government attacking us from all sides with more taxation is "normal". Market cycles, recessions and depressions are "normal". It is "normal" that everything just seems to get worse year after year. The "normal" people will accept the world getting worse and try to adapt to it.

But there are many that will at some point "wake up" and realize they have been living in a dream world. Here are some of your choices once this happens:

1) Change the world - do something crazy that makes the media perk up and listen to your rants for a day or week. Drive a tank down a highway with reckless abandon, blow up a building, fly a plane into a building, send letters out tainted with Anthrax. Just do something to get noticed and when you do the media will publish your manifestos, link to your blog and paint a picture of you to look like a complete nutjob. The public, the very people you're trying to help, will be convinced you are a nutjob and after a week they'll forget all about you and set up memorials for those you've murdered in your quest for 15 seconds of fame.

2) Really change the world - this involves gaining the support of millions of people and changing the system through the sheer magnitude of your political force or raise your own army and start your own revolt. There will, of course, be many difficulties to overcome assuming you're successful in your campaign like just how are you going to run a country any better. Of course, one would have a better chance of mating a polar bear with a penguin than pulling this off.

3) Be a victim - go throughout the rest of your life sick to death of "the government". Tell anyone that will listen about how evil the government cronies are and grumble everytime you have to pay taxes.

4) If you can't beat 'em, join 'em - it is actually possible to accept the system as it is and learn how to prosper within it. It is possible to learn how to make money (not earn it from a job). Learn the rules and learn how to make them work for you. Of course, once you think you've got the whole game figured out, the game will change. Only the swiftest, most adaptable will be able to pull this off but, assuming you succeed, you'll have a moral issue because you've now become one of the "cronies" that you used to rant about.

So what is one to do? This is the world we live in. Unless you were born a Bush, Rothschild, Kennedy or one of the other Royal families, you will fight an uphill battle your entire life. It seems very fitting that the founding fathers stressed the words "the pursuit of happiness" because that's all your life will ever be - a pursuit of happiness. Ignorance is bliss and the ignorant can die happy. But for the rest of us, there is no Zion.

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Re: Plane Crash Suspect's Online Diatribe

The disconnect is unbelievable...the U.S. and U.K. just just killed 1,300,000 innocent Iraqis over lies and every week we are killing 20-100 innocent Afghanis and Pakistanis a week.  No one seems to care or notice.  You would think a butcher society would take little note of a couple of innocent deaths - but, instead people are traumatized. 

It's too bad that Stack casually killed innocent people removed from the problem but that seems to be very acceptable in this society.  Unfortunately, Stack may be right, only violence will end the insanity.  If so, it will be because the people are too docile and deluded to take our country back peacefully.  Anyone who has been half awake knows that the number 1 threat to our families is the people running the U.S. 

Larry 

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Re: Plane Crash Suspect's Online Diatribe

Larry does raise a point in that the excessive collateral damage that our wars create does not really present a peaceful image or even peace-loving morality from our leaders.

Violent acts, such as terrorism and this man's actions in particular, are often (usually?) the result of intense desperation when there is a perception that there is no other recourse.

Celente frequently refers to average Joe in "Whazeristan" who has his innocent family blown away in collateral damage by a drone sent by the US. Assuming only the husband survives, what does this man think of our society? What actions might he be more inclined or disinclined to take as a result? Does his viewpoint after his family is killed have anything in common with the viewpoint likely held by the Austin pilot? Is the blowback from collateral damage severe enough that we should perhaps put more an emphasis on first doing no (unjust) harm?

 

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Finally, I was waiting for a discussion on this here.

I'm from Austin, I was going to work about 2 miles away from the Echelon building yesterday. I saw the smoke as I was driving up Hwy 360 (about 20 minutes after the crash, the crash was at hwy 360 and hwy 183), and was wondering what was going on. Turned on the radio (just happened to be the Alex Jones show, he's pretty popular here in Austin), and they were already talking about the plane crash, though nothing was really known about it at the time.

It was just kind of surreal for a moment. I've heard of numerous terrorist attacks and stuff like that before, but it's always been somewhere far away, and I never really thought much about it. For a medium size city (about 1 million), Austin is pretty quiet. Crime is very low, nothing like this ever happens here (I've lived in Austin for 16 years, and this is the worst thing that's ever happened here, except for the huge transformer that exploded downtown about 10 years ago that killed a few people and left half the city without power for a day or so, but that was an accident).

It was just a weird feeling to be watching CNN and see the building burning then looking out the window of our building and seeing the smoke from a mile or two away.

Anyways, the whole incident has given me that strange feeling in my stomach that this is the beginning of something big. The same feeling I had in August of 2008 that "something important/bad is about to happen". I believe this might be the turning point, what will finally start to wake people up. A LOT of people I know have read Joe Stack's rant, and although they don't agree with his actions, they mostly agree with his views. I have a feeling that more and more people will start to follow his actions though.

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Re: Plane Crash Suspect's Online Diatribe

 

This event is going to be used to expand government power to make anyone look like a domestic terrorist.  You can only tie up a dog for so long before he BITES BACK!  Government needs to back down and shrink itself.  

 A consumption tax can accomplish that and make the government a slave to the people, the way it should be.

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Re: Plane Crash Suspect's Online Diatribe
DrKrbyLuv wrote:

The disconnect is unbelievable...the U.S. and U.K. just just killed 1,300,000 innocent Iraqis over lies and every week we are killing 20-100 innocent Afghanis and Pakistanis a week.  No one seems to care or notice.  You would think a butcher society would take little note of a couple of innocent deaths - but, instead people are traumatized. 

It's too bad that Stack casually killed innocent people removed from the problem but that seems to be very acceptable in this society.  Unfortunately, Stack may be right, only violence will end the insanity.  If so, it will be because the people are too docile and deluded to take our country back peacefully.

Larry,

I hope you are wrong.

DrKrbyLuv wrote:

Anyone who has been half awake knows that the number 1 threat to our families is the people running the U.S. 

Larry 

On that I think we can agree.

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Re: Plane Crash Suspect's Online Diatribe

regarding slaves, the government and the people both are slaves to private banks.  that's what needs to be fixed.  Treasury should nationalize the Fed and pull our monetary system out of the hands of private bankers who create every bit of our money as a debt to be paid back plus interest (of course you'd have to get rid of Geithner and every other Wall St stooge who fronts as a public servant at Treasury and replace them with William K. Black or Brooksley Born types who would be loyal to their public role).  this would fix the problems that caused Joe's pain.  he was right to be upset with his rulers, but he bought the lie that the rulers were the ones he saw on TV instead of realizing the rulers, at least when it comes to the issues that upset him, are the Wall St cartel.

 

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Re: Plane Crash Suspect's Online Diatribe
Davos wrote:

I skimmed the manifesto. 

Sounds like he made some decisions that he may have made differently and have been better off. Hind sight is of course 20/20.

For instance, I read he owned the 4 seater. I can't understand how having a private plane can be acceptable to anyone who has had his/her retirement wiped out. Maybe it was a rented plane and the media was off.

Sounds like the IRS was a gotcha, no different then say surviving cancer with crappy insurance and winding up BK.

Sounds like he was mad that the childhood Santa, Tooth-Ferry, Easter-Bunny & Democracy fairytales are exactly that.

In any event I agree with Mike on what Celente says. The idiots at large are going to have to raise taxes as they did during GD-I. When people get pinched I think they are going to end up fitting that Celente mold. But what I have spent a lot of time contemplating is this: Is Celente's equation missing something? A lot of people have lost more than this guy did and not lost it. Does the red pill factor into Celente's equation?

 

 

There are two things about this incident that are sure.

The first is that this guy was on the high end of some kind of excitability and violence bell curve.  He took a lot of hits.  No doubt he made some bad decisions, too.   And he couldn't deal with the consequences of it in any way other than vowing to go out with a bang. 

The second is that as this depression lasts longer and gets worse, we're going to be moving toward the middle of that bell curve where there are a lot more people.  The only thing that might stop that is getting leadership that really gives people hope that there will be meaningful change.  Obama has failed miserably in this department.  I doubt that even a huge Republican victory in the fall will have more than a transient effect.  

Maybe Perot could run for President again on an I-told-you-so program.

 

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Re: Plane Crash Suspect's Online Diatribe

Shot heard round the world;

 

"By the rude bridge that arched the flood,

Their flag to April's breeze unfurled;

Here once the embattled farmers stood,

And fired the shot heard 'round the world."

 

Joseph Stack is the newest American hero.

 

Time to take up flying lessons, just in case

 

The US Government sure has made us a blood thirsty lot.

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Re: Plane Crash Suspect's Online Diatribe

jh355,

You might be right.
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/2010/02/19/2010-02-19_kamakazi_pilot_hailed_by_loonies_as_antigov_hero.html

"loonies" cracks me up.
As if the New York daily anything has the right to call anyone anything.
Not that I agree with the "loonies", I'm a firm believer in using peaceful measures.

Cheers,

Aaron

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Re: Plane Crash Suspect's Online Diatribe
jh355 wrote:

Shot heard round the world;

 

"By the rude bridge that arched the flood,

Their flag to April's breeze unfurled;

Here once the embattled farmers stood,

And fired the shot heard 'round the world."

 

Joseph Stack is the newest American hero.

 

Time to take up flying lessons, just in case

 

The US Government sure has made us a blood thirsty lot.

I saw this prevalent on ZeroHedge. So I asked myself if this was just the culture of that site. 

So I went surfing comment sections of every site that had something on Joe Stack, MSM sites included. 

It's EVERYWHERE. In fact, I was, and still am completely stunned by how many people equate him to some Patrick Henry type. 

This is, most regretably, a harbinger of things to come. We are sliding deeper into a cataclysmic economic great depression. That alone is enough to cause significant chaos. 

The government's anti-citizen attitude, specifically it's rampant spying, Wall Street favoritism,. demonization of all dissent, is like throwing gasoline on a monsterous pile of dry timber. "Yeah, that playbook has worked in rogue nations, but this nation still has a legacy of liberty still well rooted in it's core. And this is dynamite too close to a blow torch. 

The "leadership" and "media" must BACK OFF, stop treating the American public like dog %$#, and give them a chance to legitimately vent. They've got to be kidding if they think that they'll be able to successfully quell discontent by the usual tricks of demonization, intimidation, and ostracization, 

I have never before been so truly afraid of what is in store for our society in the coming months and years. God help us all. 

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