Out Of The Box

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joe2baba's picture
joe2baba
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Out Of The Box

i have been here a long time and i have read a lot of threads and posts..............if i had a nickel? and one thing jumps out at me more than anything..............a lack of vision. there is little discussion other than a few community threads and perma culture about what a truly new society we can create. lots of talk about what to do to protect the assets of the old paradigm but nothing about what would happen in a shtf scenario. given either a collapse or a long slow descent where would we like to be in 20 , 30  40 or more years.

the brain power on this site is amazing..............we have almost 16000 views of the firearms thread over 800 posts. folks we fought a revolution with firearms over 200 years ago have we come so far to not get anywhere(this is not a slam on firearms so dont go off on me i am all in favor of a well armed populace it was just an example)

it would be cool for the ol prof to stretch out a little and just share a few dreams of what it would look like in his perfect world.

how far out of the box could we go ? how far down the rabbit hole?

are we just trying to maintain a failed paradigm or about creating a new paradigm. one that not only wmpowers the individual but the communtiy as well? we have had communism , fascism, some think capitalism, feudalism what is the next ism? 

maybe knowism

maybe in 20 years this thread will have 16000 views

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Re: Out Of The Box

Joe,

Come up north for a lovely weekend this fall to take in the fall foliage and drive through the highways and back roads of New England. When you look at the main streets of the small towns, think about how they "used" to be. Look deeply at the buildings, sharpen your eye and think about how the community unfolded. Make sure you look at ones that were located along a rail line and not one that sprung up from the highway being built.

Each town had a town "center" an area of commerce. A barber, a bank, church(s) and a few stores. It may be really hard to see depending on how the town grew, but you can tell where the blacksmith was located. And even, see where the farms came close to the "town". Each town has a "common" a large field right smack dab in the middle of the "main street" where I hear that there were farmer's markets, festivals and entertainment. Most likely, there was a mill building that was a factory that produced goods for local consumption and transport to other communities.

My vision is a hub and spoke type of set up connected by rail or commuter bus lines. More local food growing and services. Look up "Berkshares" as a local money. Read about how it ties local community to itself. There will be locally produced goods using "alternative" energy. It really kills me that we consider any type of energy thats isn't oil based to be "alternative". My gosh, it was OIL that was the alternative energy back when these towns were built.

I hate to say it, but look at a Disney layout. Everything is within walking distance and then there is "public" transportation to take you around to an area that may be too far to walk when you are tired. Now the only caveat about Disney is that there is a city beneath the city. The infrastructure is all underground.

I am tired and can't think of any more right now.

C.

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Re: Out Of The Box
joe2baba wrote:

maybe in 20 years this thread will have 16000 views

I can hit refresh 16000 times today if you think that will help.

Seriously, I wish I had some sort of intelligent answer for this. I don't. I think there are so many people in so many countries, states, towns, and none will agree on how to proceed. As you mention, there are the "haves" that are trying to preserve or defend what they have acquired, as is human nature. The have-nots or prepared-nots will require help - more than the folks who have prepared can give in my mind. I for one think this is what is going to dominate the social landscape, and I do not know what the ism would be for that.

I do hope that long term, a new equilibrium is reached, and we can collectively learn from the mistakes of our past. Perhaps this is knowism. Seems to me that the Iroquois, Navajo, and many other native American tribes did a good job of living within their means in a very sustainable way. It was a mental state that most capitalists and other ists don't have room for in their brain. For example, the Navajo did not own the land, the land owned the Navajo. That thought process is so far from our programming that it really takes time to think about it and let it sink in. As they describe it, the white man has a hole in his soul that can never be filled.

Until we patch that hole in our soul and learn to live within our means, live and let live as they did, were in for more of the socialism, capitalism, whatever-ism that creates the imbalance in the first place.

Rog

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Re: Out Of The Box


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Re: Out Of The Box

Tom,

That is priceless! 

 

joe2baba,

...one thing jumps out at me more than anything..............a lack of vision.

Perhaps it is because most of us have come here looking for answers - not with the intent of telling people what they should do.

I see this community as one where those who have become aware, or are becoming aware, of a scary future can find people of like mind. Too many of us find ourselves surrounded by family and friends who have their heads stuck in the sand like the proverbial ostrich.

As an example, I am making some plans to weather the coming storm, but continue to read these threads to gain knowledge of what other people are doing as I cannot think of everything.

I think the new paradigm that you are looking for has already been expressed by other posters any number of times. A world in which we shrink back to local community, local economies.

It would be nice to know what the future holds so that we can prepare ourselves adequately. Unfortunately, we are sailing into uncharted waters. So, batten down the hatches, joe, and hang on!

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Re: Out Of The Box

("Box, I hereby STEP OUT OF THEE!!")

Well Joe2, this is the 64 trillion dollar question, ain't it?

My hoped-for future?

My powers of prognostification are far too meager to paint the future w/any exactitude, but it seems to me likely whatever our social organizations are, they'll be smaller, more cooperative, and life will be a heck of a lot slower.  Not less busy, mind you, but the crazy-running-monkey hectic-ness of things will I believe (and hope) be a bad memory.  We'll live more locally, closer to the earth (and each other) and move in more synchrony with the rhythms of the earth.  Life will be more tenuous but richer.  We'll write and sing our own songs, both literally and figuratively.  We'll know each other better, and ourselves too.  We'll be valued by what we can offer others as opposed to what we can wring from the system of the world.  My wife and I host annual gatherings at our house of the members of our community for a giveaway -- find something valuable that you don't value/use/need, and bring it.  We put everything on a big blanket and then people take things.  (Last time I gave away a nice high-end [but pre-digital] SLR camera w/extra lenses & stuff...)  Similar to the Native American tradition of potlach.  The most-respected members of a community will be those that enrich the other members (in the ways that'll matter in the future -- food, health, light/heat, sturdy clothing/shoes, shelter, smiles).

Just a quick gloss.  No doubt hundred-page essays could be written on this subject...

VIVA -- Sager

 

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Re: Out Of The Box

Joe,

It's a great question, and I don't pretend to know the answer, but I'll offer a few of my thoughts:

First, while I think it is possible, I don't think it is probable that the U.S. and the world will suddenly plunge into the abyss of unlawfulness, disregard for social mores, violence, and the like. Rather than falling from a precipice, I suspect we will gradually, in fits and starts, tumble down the hill, scrape our collective knees, get up and brush ourselves, only to trip again. I believe this scenario to be likely for two related reasons: one, because unless there comes a "perfect storm" of calamities (our current economic crisis alone won't do it), there is simply not enough leverage to force us down the hill in one, swift, tumultuous event; and, two, there exists far too great inertia in our current system (old boys network, financial oligarchy, whatever) for such an event.

Second, whether suddenly or not, we will find ourselves at some future time in a very much different place from where we are. The current economic crisis will stabilize somewhat, but then will likely begin to crumble again. The effects of peak energy and our planet's limited resources will begin to take hold, forcing a more local, integrated, and sustainable way of life.

Third, I think it highly likely that we will see a significant reduction in our world population in the next generation or two. We will see anarchy and violence, and although I suspect that will be somewhat limited in scope and extent in the U.S., it will be a greater problem in other areas of the world. That alone, though, in the absence of the release of biological agents or nuclear attacks by a rogue state, will have a relatively minor effect. Instead, starvation and disease will be the more important threats, as they have always been. As I have stated elsewhere, I would not be at all surprised by a global pandemic of serious import at some point in my lifetime.

Fourth, and the answer here will likely also come in fits and starts, will be our ultimate social and/or political structure. Here, the final outcome will vary from place to place, depending upon the social constructs and traditions that exist locally. In the U.S., we have a strong affinity for the idea of representational government, and I suspect that will endure. My hope, however, is that it will function much differently than it currently does, and more in line with the thoughts of Jefferson over 200 years ago. I am hopeful that local governments (city, county and state) will become much more empowered, and responsive to the interests of their citizens, and that a federal government, if one exists at all, will become much less powerful, intrusive, and prone to manipulation. In other areas of the world, social and political conventions may be very different, so their ideal solutions may be different.

Finally, I do not foresee an end to capitalism. None of us know for sure, of course, but I cannot imagine that some enterprising Neandethal living 100,000 years ago didn't sell, or barter, the stone adzes he made. However, without the work-saving and exploitative money-making effects of fossil fuels, capitalism will become, like our social structures, more local, integrated, and sustainable.

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Re: Out Of The Box

Tom Loftus - Love the art work!  You are making Joe a cult hero.  We need a Joe art exhibit wing for this blog.

Larry

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Re: Out Of The Box

you are too kind tom you're a genius

well this thread will disappear down the drain of the forum threads of yore.

i have a sign on the inside of my front door which reads "do your dream". i see it when i step out into the world everyday.

this thread for the most part has been a rehash of what people have done in the past that seemed to work.

my intent was to see if anyone could look into the future with the undrstanding that we have the power to create a world of our own making. something entirely new something outside the matrix. it would take the ability to step out of our normal asleep consciousness. to see the world with brand new eyes. it would take forgetting everything you think you know, believe or have an opinion about.

i did not want to lead this into any one direction but one question is on the issue of work. is one hour of a lawyers time really worth ten times the worth of a carpenter. is  a doctors' time worth  ten times the worth of the nurse who stands by him/her at the operating table..............in a future you would create how would something like that look?

i have no answers just wanted to open a dialog. as i said the brainpower here is incredible. and i feel in my gut that a future is being planned for us at this moment.

a fellow seeker

 

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Re: Out Of The Box

tom the check is in the mail.........................i love you and i will respect you in the morning an i wont................

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Re: Out Of The Box

of course we can look at the diffearnt scenarios but what i was thinking about is a whole new idea.

you i am sure are an incredible, talented physician. can you close your eyes and envision being a healer in an entirely new way in an entirel different society one you never had even dreamed of start from scratch and forget everything you were taught in med school and create a community of healers or whatever. what is your ideal of health care for a community a state a nation. if we cant dream it how can we create it? the idea being we need each other in very obvious and some not so obvious ways which are very subtle.

a great book i recommend is "wizard of the upper amazon" by f bruce lamb a great view of what it means to be a healer.

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Re: Out Of The Box

thanks sager i will offer the idea of potlatch at out next transition town meeting great idea.

ps dont ever get back in the box you shine much brighter outside

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Re: Out Of The Box
joe2baba wrote:

of course we can look at the diffearnt scenarios but what i was thinking about is a whole new idea.

you i am sure are an incredible, talented physician. can you close your eyes and envision being a healer in an entirely new way in an entirel different society one you never had even dreamed of start from scratch and forget everything you were taught in med school and create a community of healers or whatever. what is your ideal of health care for a community a state a nation. if we cant dream it how can we create it? the idea being we need each other in very obvious and some not so obvious ways which are very subtle.

a great book i recommend is "wizard of the upper amazon" by f bruce lamb a great view of what it means to be a healer.

Joe,

Actually, I think of myself as only a reasonably capable surgeon, and one with good intuition, but my greatest strength is likely my willingness to connect with my patients; however, I'm not infallible on that issue, either.

I have written about what I see likely, or possible, for the future of healthcare. (See my thread on health and healthcare issues.) I believe that my thinking is "outside of the box", as the box is currently defined, but realize that our likely future is necessarily defined by the box in which we currently reside. I struggle between my instincts of idealism and practicality, as we all do. While an exercise in "ideal" thinking can be liberating, and guide our motivations and actions, in the end, they need be tempered by practicality.

What I outlined is what I think is likely, and given the constraints of our past and our expectations, probably ideal. I'm sorry if that is not what you were looking for.

One other response: Should a surgeon earn more than his nurse? Probably, if only given the cost and time of the education and the relative scarcity of the resources he or she possesses. Should he or she earn ten time as much? No. How much more? I don't know, perhaps some fraction that approximates the ratio of surgeons to nurses?

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Re: Out Of The Box
joe2baba wrote:

thanks sager i will offer the idea of potlatch at out next transition town meeting great idea.

ps dont ever get back in the box you shine much brighter outside

[saluting]  Yes sir, General McBabarthur!  Out of the Box!  SIR YES SIR!  [smile]

And by all means, do the potlach.  It's amazing the stuff that shows up for redistribution.  The guy who ended up with the camera couldn't believe his good fortune.  It felt really great to me, too -- that camera had been gathering dust for ages.

Viva -- Sager

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Re: Out Of The Box

For me, if the SHTF, I think things would be very painful before they got better. I like Dr. Peters point that our future may be defined from elements of the current box we reside in.

Aside from a total collapse of society, where we went Mad Max style. We would still need interstate transport for goods. I don't think we would be able to manufacture everything we need for ourselves in a small community. We would still need supplies from the outside. If you need generators, batteries, wire, where would we get them? I don't think things are going back to the 1800s. If things do, I imagine it would be a short period of time. I think we would still need a nationwide network, communications, transportation. Just my perspective though.

This is a tough question for me, I see so many possibilities.

What is the next evolution for society based on what we know now?

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Re: Out Of The Box

Joe - I don't know if this is what you had in mind, but this is what I think:

I can remember being in college in Oklahoma in the early 90's. Timothy Leary came to speak at our school, before he died. My roomate and I went to see him. I remember some time after that, my roomate, and some friends were at the lake, drinking beer and ____ and just talking. As we talked about our futures, our lives, jobs, future wives, etc. I remember specifically thinking that I had more in common with an old, aging burned-out hippie than with my own peer group.

Then, I graduated, I got married, I got a job, a mortgage, vehicle payments, credit card debt, the whole nine yards. I got plugged into the system, man! The Matrix swallowed me! And I bought it, at first. Career advancement, working my way up the ladder. Slowly though, through events both of my own making, and some that were just serendipitous, my eyes began to open. Slowly, slowly, very slowly. The System is so well crafted, it can be hard to lift the veil; To look behind the curtain. (BTW, Key #1: Turn OFF The TV!) 

Now, as I'm closer to 40 than 30, I see my life differently. So many things that "seemed" important really aren't. I want desperately to jump out of the Matrix; To un-plug from the system. I want to live a life that's genuine; an expression of who I really am. The problem? Fear. I fear making changes; I fear not doing my routine; I fear reaction from friends and family and bosses and supervisors; I live for their expectations. [Not 100%, by the way. In many ways, I don't give a flip what they think. But in other ways, not so much.] Why? I don't really know, except that I seek approval, and I have a strong desire to be accepted and to make friends. Don't rock the boat, in other words. Keep your nose to the grindstone, bear down, grit your teeth, suck it up, more is better, bigger is better, you need a new _____ to be _____, etc, are all powerful messages when society tells us that over and over again. I want change, but I fear doing something different, if that makes any sense. I remind myself of the ole' hound dog who lays on the porch, right on the board with the nail that's worked loose, and is poking him in the ribs. The hound dog, he lays on that damn board every day, and moans and moans about that pain the nail causes him; Yet, he's too lazy to just get up and move to another spot! And. let's be honest: The fact of the matter is: It takes income to survive in this world. I have a primary responsibility to take care of my wife and three little ones. And, my job does that pretty well. Now, a job is not the only way to earn income, I know that, but I can stay planted where I'm at until the next path opens up for me.

Personally, I hope to use this crisis, this unfolding of events, as a time of exploration. I have lots and lots of ideas. Little follow-through. Taking little baby steps is important for me. That's why CM's message on prioritizing is important for me. Take care of the right now stuff right now; The other stuff comes later. As I do the next right thing in life, more is made clear - And the path opens itself. Right now, the path doesn't seem so clear, so I sit tight. "Actively Waiting" a friend called it.

I guess that's about it, for now.

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American Greed

 

.

 

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Re: Out Of The Box
Tom Loftus wrote:


Indeed, Tom, that is priceless . . . . and a far more appropriate way of immortalizing Joe than your first attempt. . . . . . . . And I hadn't realized until I saw him sans hair, and in uniform, what a handsome devil Joe really is!  Thanks! 

But, still, now that you've used McArthur, what image are you going to use when you finally get up the nerve to lampoon CM? 

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Will the Circle Be Unbroken?

.

 

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Re: Out Of The Box

tx

thanks for the post. i understand. our lives are a result of the choices we make ..............choose wisely.

when i left n.y. in 71 i headed for the woods. i swore i would live in a place where my dogs would be happy. i have been in the woods ever since. now that i have no dogs i swear to live in a place where i can relieve myself in the front yard. i turned on tuned in and dropped out. i realized we are not material beings having a spiritual experience but spiritual beings having a material experience.

everything is a trade off in life we all do the best we can.

i have four rules

1-show up

2-pay attention

3- do the best you can

4- leave the results to god

i came in this world with nothing and i will leave with nothing.

i raised a daughter in the woods and she is an amazing self reliant young woman with values i wish i had when i was her age. when she scatters my ashes i told her not to cry because i lived my life and i lived it on my terms to the fullest. i also want her to know that i busted my butt to leave this a better place than what i found it. this is how i measure the success of my life.

follow your intuition tx take care of your responsibilities to your family. one of those responsibilities is to encourage your kids dreams even encourage them to dream. dream with them about what you would like this world to be. it is by your dreams that your kids will remember you.

live large laugh loud and love till it hurts.

thank you

om shanti

joe

 

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Re: Out Of The Box

Ok out of the box...

Lets look at the current system first so we can define the box.

So we work jobs to be paid to buy stuff, so more or less (other than the social aspects, which do not rely on the system) live in a pure profit/loss scenario.

Pay = Time Spent doing job * Perceived Value of Job

Stuff = Dollars we spend = X * Pay

So in the main we perceive this as

Pay = Free (since time is perceived by us as infinite, until we realize our mortality)

Now some stuff are necessities (shelter, food, water, energy)

Some of our stuff are time drains, some look pretty, some help us recover time by reducing how long a personal task takes,

On a Daily basis our time looks like this

1 Day = Time Working + Time Drained + Time recovered by stuff

Nice box we have here, primary limit is time which many perceive as infinite,

In Summation (in the words of Tyler Durden)

"An entire generation pumping gas, waiting tables; slaves with white collars. Advertising has us chasing cars and clothes, working jobs we hate so we can buy sh!t we don't need."

How I'd like my new life to look

Necessities = Time Spent * (1 - a risk factor)

Stuff = Time Spent * (1 - a risk factor)

This introduces a risk factor into everything, which is both good and bad, good since it's a reminder that things don't always work out as we expect, and bad because it could have fatal consequences (food production fails).

This model also reconnects us directly to our efforts and the things we acquire (Stuff), making the decision whether we need that more immediate, i.e. if I go to Best Buy and pick up a $3000 dollar TV it's just $3000 I don't consider it about 4 full days of work, to get that cash. Now if it took me a full time year to build it (and the components needed for the construction), then I'd be far less likely to "pick it up".

Finally like anything a perceived shortage of something makes everything taste better, re-introducing real mortality into peoples lives has some negatives, but once those are mentally handled (and not surprisingly we're built for it), it makes everything sweeter. You're going to go check out tonights sunset, because you know, it might be the last you see. You're going get jiggy with your wife tonight because it could be the last time you do. If you don't believe this, go ask any former smoker how their last smoke felt. It also gets rid of the "little" stressors like, "I'd much rather punch this guy in the throat than listen to this BS" as you're sitting listening to someone (like me  drone on) that keeps you hopped up on Adrenaline and Cortisol for hours, and returns us to real stresses, that are more transient in nature, but over with.

Our current society promotes a culture of current abstinence for future pleasures, don't take that vacation, you can do it next year, or the year after that, because I really need that new BMW 350i. So we store these things away with the expectation that "in the future" we'll get to them. However not everyone does, here's a scary statistic for me in 2005 for 26 consecutive weeks from January though to late June one person in my location aged between 30 and 45 died (one I knew who was 32 with a wife and two kids, third one on the way, heart attack, no warning) the company I work for has about 30,000 local employee's. I wondered then whether they'd taken that trip to Europe, or Scuba Diving Course, or Pilots license they'd been planning on doing or getting since college, that got pushed out because they'd get to it. Actually more pertinently it also degrades the daily pleasures to routines we all have, since we naturally seem to be looking towards the "big one" we're going to get to.

So my out of the box is simple

I want

  • The fruits of my own labor, successful or not
  • Drinking from the cup of life as it is with all its quirks
  • Ending Wage Slavery for Consumer Slavery
  • Reclaiming my humanity

I think I've just confirmed I'm a radical...

Does that answer the question?

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Re: Out Of The Box

gungnir you go to the head of the class

so i take it it is some form of subsistence existence.

knowing full well that primitive cultures had much less heart disease, stroke, hypertension, diabetes etc. this wuld be a definite improvement.

question? in todays world you focused on the economics but there is a question abut how religion and belief systems affect the way we not only perceive the world but how we adapt or currently attempt to dominate our environment. this would entail a system of morality for believers which right now makes up most of humanity. athere is no consensus morality for the world. for non believers then a system of wthics would need to be in place.

yes  you are a radical ............welcome

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Re: Out Of The Box

At the risk of being flamed and vilified, I'll attempt to define "the box" as I see it:

We humans meddle too much. We meddle with ourselves. We meddle with other people. We meddle with other nations. We certainly meddle with Nature. Meddle, Meddle, Meddle.

Of course, we rationalize this as innovation and improvement. In some cases, our compulsion to "fix things" actually does create an overall improvement. But nothing we do has zero impact, and the Law of Unintended Consequence bites us in the butt somehow no matter how clever or useful our inventions are. We're so driven to make things "better" that we have totally forgotten the concept of "good enough" and that pits us against ourselves, each other, and Nature. Sure, time saving devices are wonderful things is you use the saved time for something useful, like using a horse to plow a field means that you have more time to chop firewood... but how many of us actually usefully employ the time we save with all our gadgets and doodads? Simple answer... most of us don't, instead we feel compelled to do more and more and more because we should have all this extra time, or we just waste it doing ultimately unfulfilling nonsense. We need to slow the heck down, enjoy what we're doing, and realize that good enough is good enough and enough is enough... we don't need better and more all the damned time.

What's even more detrimental is the intellectual and emotional things we meddle in. Belief systems have been used to justify atrocities and social imbalances for time immemorable... why? Why is it that we humans have the audacity to inflict our views, beliefs and opinions on everyone else as "right" and then get personally offended when others don't believe? Even those of us Idealists who are "only trying to help and enlighten" are still guilty of this no matter how pure our motivations may be if we don't let the subject drop after first mention when the other person isn't interested. Perhaps if we stopped airing our personal beliefs in public and others did the same, then we could stop all this silly war and bigotry nonsense. Really, what should it matter that my neighbor worships a purple alien named Buster as long as he's not trying to get me to believe in him too or railing against me because I worship a golden fairy named Gizelle. Seriously, what the heck does it matter? If I'm doing or believing something that you wouldn't do or believe it, but it isn't actually harming you in anyway, what is the problem? Getting personally offended by someone else's belief is just inane... how can someone's thought harm you if they aren't acting against you in a physical manner? And please, someone explain to me where the real harm comes to my neighbors if I decide to paint my house neon orange? There is none, it's just not aesthetically pleasing to my neighbors.

Anyway, so I went on a bit of a rant there. Essentially, I think the big "out of box" move we need to make is to stop minding our neighbor's business and start minding our own. Stop trying to improve things all the time. Tend your own garden and let other people tend theirs. Stop all the judgmentalism and value assignments. Stop meddling and tinkering until you finally really break it. Accept and appreciate that you have enough and it's good enough, you don't need more and you don't need better. Help only those who ask for it, because unsolicited help is meddling. Stop trying to fix the world, and start trying to fix yourself... you're the only person you can really affect anyway.

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Cloudfire
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Re: Out Of The Box
PlicketyCat wrote:

Meddle, Meddle, Meddle.

Tsk, Tsk, Tsk . . . . . . . .Plickety, Plickety, Plickety . . . . . .(just had to do that!)

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Gungnir
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Re: Out Of The Box

I agree with all of the points that you raise, morality, spirituality (I consider perhaps fairly perhaps not, religion tend to be as political as spiritual).

I focused on Economics, primarily since this is the "current" primary thinking, and would carry the message further with those still attached to current social constructs.

I think I've mentioned on other threads, about the universe (through current physics) requiring an observer (quantum waveform collapse) and how this points to sentient life being a universal requirement. Although I'm not averse to the "spiritual beings experiencing a physical world, vs. physical beings experiencing spiritual events" either, i.e. does the physicality reflect us, or we the physicality. This is something that has fascinated me since I discovered it. I do feel that modern society is disconnected with the world we live in, and we reflect that, as does the world.

Morality is interesting, is it universal? I don't know. Difficult to say, my morals are simple, if I do (or am forced to do something) I object to that to me is immoral, and it's inverse is moral. I treat people as I try to be treated, offer opinions when asked for them provide assistance when requested, since if I don't want an opinion I don't ask for it, and if I don't want assistance I don't ask for it. This also extends to others morals, I have no problem with healthy discussion about either my or others morals, but because these are core, I don't expect to change their morals, I don't expect they'll change mine. But it can be an enlightening discussion, unless my apparent intransigence is seen as offensive to the other person which leads them to attempt to ram their position down my throat (see my definition of Immoral) .

So to distil what I've said and tie it back, I guess my system reflects my being, and my being will reflect that existence. Which seems to be in balance.

Yes it's more subsistence, but I think that the past 300 years of Human civiilization have proven that more than subsistence isn't necessarily more joyous. Life and existence should be hard work, but happy, I think we've lost sight of that. To change the system we'll need to go through a period of chaos, that leads to us learning what was good about the previous system, and what we can reject, similarly we can learn what is good about the current system and what we can reject. We're so disconnected with our natural rhythms that we no longer know, since we're blinded by staring into the sun. It's evolutionary, death, decay, rebirth, growth, we're seeing the death, then the decay, it will be reborn, those that experience the death and decay can carry forward into the rebirth, hopefully with lessons learned. Who knows in a thousand years time they might be erecting statues to you, I or someone else for our differences.

 

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joe2baba
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Re: Out Of The Box

we have lost our sense of the sacred , no shift of externals will shift the heart of man.

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Cloudfire
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Re: Out Of The Box

/

 

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tom.
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Re: Out Of The Box
c1oudfire wrote:

But, still, now that you've used McArthur, what image are you going to use when you finally get up the nerve to lampoon CM? 

You must have missed it .. POST # 35

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Cloudfire
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Re: Out Of The Box

.

 

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Gungnir
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Re: Out Of The Box
joe2baba wrote:

we have lost our sense of the sacred , no shift of externals will shift the heart of man.

I agree with the Second part...

Shifting the heart of man, requires shifting the hearts of many men. The only person who can change you, is you, no one can do this for you, no one can force you to change, you do it and only you.

I think the first part still exists (personally anyway)

These are a few of my Sac-er-red things

  • Simple universal processes that generate complex objects
  • Fractals
  • Devils Tower Wyoming
  • Sunsets over the Ocean, or Mountains
  • Wooded Glades with dappled sunshine
  • Orgasms (hey you asked, I'm open and honest)
  • Thunderstorms
  • Sub-Zero (Farenheit) Snowstorms
  • The Pyramids
  • Cold feet on a warm carpet
  • "Old antiques" 500 years or more, imagine the events they've lived through and survived.
  • Intuituve connections with wild animals, example Alpha Male at the Yellowstone Wolf and Bear Sanctuary, made full eye contact with me then howled, followed by the rest of the pack. My wife looked at me and asked if I did that, my emotional reaction was they were saying "welcome back".
  • "Cloudbusting", on sunny but partly cloudy days, pick a cloud, and will it to splt, then split a split piece. Is it coincidence, or a universal response to your will?

My list like me is individual. I expect everyone's list will be different.

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joe2baba
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Posts: 807
Re: Out Of The Box

chris

one idea for out of the box medical care is paying docs to keep you well. rather than paying them to heal you. there was a recent story of a doc who tried to have his patients pay a montly fee (very nominal) and the authorities would not let him.

this concept goes back to ancient china

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