One of THE BEST Articles that I Have EVER Read!

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One of THE BEST Articles that I Have EVER Read!

A Termite-Riddled House: Treasury Bonds

When termites eat your house, you don’t notice a thing. You don’t hear a thing, you don’t see a thing—you’re house stands there, silent and staid, while you and your family happily go about your days, without a care in the world—

 

—until your house crashes on top of your head.

 

Right now, we are at a stage where Treasury bonds are as weakened as a termite-riddled house. They look fine: Nice glossy coat of paint, pretty shingles, bright clear windows, sturdy-looking plankings on the open-aired porch.

 

But Treasuries are well on their way to a complete collapse. Why? Because of the way they have been mishandled and mistreated by the Federal Reserve Board, and the U.S. Treasury. Whether by incompetence or by design, U.S. Treasury bonds have become the New & Improved Toxic Asset. The question is no longer if they will collapse—it’s when.

 

Let me explain why.


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Re: One of THE BEST Articles that I Have EVER Read!

Excellent article. Thanks, Davos.

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Re: One of THE BEST Articles that I Have EVER Read!

Agree...excellent!

 

Nichoman

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Re: One of THE BEST Articles that I Have EVER Read!

Thanks for the great article Davos.  Tyler Durden makes an interesting point when he says that bonds are not assets, they're debt. 

Maybe someone can help me understand a detail I am foggy on.  Would I be right in saying that when GSEs are bundled from mortgages, the debt is effectively monetized twice?  For example, the real estate acts as collateral when the homeowner signs an IOU.  Then, if that same mortgage is bundled in a GSE, more money is created on the same debt?

Larry

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Re: One of THE BEST Articles that I Have EVER Read!

Davos

I agree, great article.  I'm glad he mentioned his disagreement with Mish because I think he is really getting to the heart of the matter here.  Having just listened to the discussion between Mish, Erik T. and Michael Hamptom  http://globaledge.podbean.com/2010/08/31/hyperinflation-ends-the-game-so-it-is-unlikely/ I will have to go back and read this article again and listen to the podcast again to see if I can crystalize exactly the difference in their perspectives.  One camp says that inflation and hyperinflation are impossible and deflation is inevitable when what we're dealing with is a mountain of debt that has to be unwound and the other is saying that inflation or hyperinflation is inevitable under the same circumstances.  I hope that somewhere in that discussion is a kernel of objective evidence that will lead to a better understanding of what's coming and how to prepare for it.  It seems clear to me that so far Mish has been right, we are in a deflationary environment and it just seems to be getting worse.  OTOH, it seems likely that at some point there will be a "moment of clarity" when people lose their "full faith and credit" in the value of the USD and Treasury securities, and a dash to the exits will begin.  I'll admit to total confusion about which theory has the most merit.

Doug

 

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Re: One of THE BEST Articles that I Have EVER Read!

Hello Doug:

All good merits. Who knows who will be correct?

All I know is what they are doing, have done and continue to do. And it ain't making the dollar any stronger. I see a collapse of the currency, with that comes hyperinflation.

Just my 2 cents, sure we will know for sure which it is soon enough.

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Re: One of THE BEST Articles that I Have EVER Read!

Larry

Did you mean to write GSE?  That's a government sponsored enterprise, not a security of some type.  As I understand the subprime mess, mortgages were bundled into bonds which were, in turn, bundled into collateralized debt obligations (CDOs) by tbtf banks and sold as AAA securities to hedge funds, each other and other big investors.  Then a few enterprising greedheads figured out the scam (see The Big Short by Michael Lewis) and started buying up credit default swaps that were essentially side bets on whether the CDOs were going to fail.  Those greedheads made out big time.  Or at least that's my take.  I would happily change my mind if someone can explain why I got it wrong.

Thoroughly confused DougUndecided

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Re: One of THE BEST Articles that I Have EVER Read!

Gonzalo is in fine form, as he scourges the flat-earth fiateers. I posted this comment at his blog:

------------

'I’m going to write a detailed take-down of these MMT fools in a couple of weeks. But for now, let me limit myself to just a couple of paragraphs.'

Awww, you shouldn't have! Can I help with the takedown? ;-)

Actually I've been doing my small bit already over at 'MMT central,' a/k/a Nude Capitalism. As I commented this morning in response to a wacko paper by Jim Hamilton, arguing for the Fed to exchange its entire stock of T-bills for T-bonds,

'Worst of all, driving long yields farther down would recruit a whole new crop of Bond Bubble Believers, like the folks I saw the other day wheeling a shopping cart full of empty soda bottles toward a broker’s office, hoping to exchange their worldly goods for a small denomination T-bond to secure their financial future.

'When the last sucker spends their last nickel to get on board the Magic Beanstalk of ever-rising bond market total returns — LOOK OUT BELOW!'

Following this provocative post, a menacing band of MMT'ers with $-sign nose and ear jewelry attacked me with broken beer bottles. But I whacked their pimpmaster, 'stf-up,' over the skull with a motorcycle chain, and they scurried off, hollering 'Ben's gonna get you.' Losers!

However, as Gonzalo says, these scrip-strewing screwballs are gonna be back, and we need to be prepared for SHOWTIME! Carry on, GL!

Laughing

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Re: One of THE BEST Articles that I Have EVER Read!

I thought the article was good too.  Mish gave Lira a bit of kicking in the the podcast that Erik T. submitted to the Daily Digest on Sept. 31.  The podcast, which Erik participates in is well worth a listen.

http://globaledge.podbean.com/2010/08/31/hyperinflation-ends-the-game-so...

(Sorry, now see it was mentioned above.)

There is too much dogmatism on both sides of the inflation/deflation debate, I think.  I tend to be in the "both" camp, i.e. much asset deflation now tipping (perhaps as described by Lira in his article) into inflation, or possibly hyperflation.  We will know before long.

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Re: One of THE BEST Articles that I Have EVER Read!

I would argue against the Moment of Clarity issue here in the US.  Clarity has never been our strong suit and there are very powerful forces trying to keep this aloft.  I fear (yes it is a fear) that they may be able to keep this aloft for decades.  Why?  Because it is all about belief  and when you listen to the clap trap being slung around and the numbers of people who believe every word you realize we are not doomed because we refuse to accept it.  For now we can continue to kick the problem down the road.

EXCEPT - if foreign bond holders have a shazaam moment (as they properly should) THEN we're toast.  But, there are far too many people involved in the deception to allow it to fall to mere reality.

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Re: One of THE BEST Articles that I Have EVER Read!

For a debtor to obtain cheaper and cheaper borrowing rates, even as he piles on the supply, is contrary to the way real markets work.

As the old adage goes, banks are happy to lend when you're flush and don't want the money. But when you NEED the money, they call in your loans and cancel your credit lines. Every small business owner has seen this phenomenon.

Yet the US Treasury -- an insolvent-but-liquid borrower which is totally dependent upon rolling over debt every Monday -- sees its borrowing rates falling toward zero across the curve, as it issues record volumes. This is the financial equivalent of a river running uphill.

But Treasuries aren't a normal market. They're a managed market, with a monopoly supplier (exempt from SEC prospectus requirements), and both domestic (Federal Reserve) and foreign official buyers.

The 'conveyor belt' aspect of this market was established at the Bretton Woods conference in 1944. As Robert Triffin pointed out, the US would be obliged to run trade deficits to supply the world with enough dollar reserves -- a fundamental imbalance. Excess dollars overseas would be recycled to the US. Until 1971, those dollars could be exchanged for gold. Treasury didn't like this, because the gold supply was finite, and running out. Now overseas dollars are mostly exchanged for Treasuries, whose supply is infinite. Demand is strong, prices rise on; not a cloud mars the azure sky.

Well, except that excessive debt chokes economic growth (this has already happened). And futile attempts to monetize debt to stoke growth eventually will croak the dollar (the monetization has begun, but the dollar remains miraculously suspended in midair). Until the dollar takes to its sickbed, we can party on, lulled by the illusory price signals from bond yields:

Mirror, mirror, on the wall
Who's the fairest borrower of all?

A managed market can stay elevated for years. But to believe that it's sustainable is a lethal error. Every 'fixed' market eventually comes under attack, and crashes back to fair value, or even below. 

No one knows when. But the end result is certain.

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Re: One of THE BEST Articles that I Have EVER Read!

As far as the inflation/deflation debate goes, I'm not on either side (I just want to protect my ASSets just like everyone else).  One thing that strikes me when I hear the deflationists speak, is they seem to conveniently ignore all the debt/dollars held by foreign nations and foreigners.  Its almost as if the world outside the US doesn't exist and that bothers me a bit.

Please see the video "Japan: Americas lost decade" on the National Inflation association website.  http://inflation.us/videos.html  this video gives a nice comparison between the US and Japan. 

They mention in the video that Japan still owns $1 trillion of US debt, foreign nations combined hold $4 trillion of US debt, and total debt (foreign nations and citizens) hold $10 trillion.  (im not sure about the $10 trillion, but I know the other two numbers are just about correct).  What is going to prevent these foreigners from dumping their dollars and using them to bid up the price of important commodities such as food and fuel?  Am I missing something?  It make sense to me that once the first country dumps their treasuries, then all the other nations will quickly follow suite.  It seems to me that a lump of $ 4 Trillion dumped on the market (and especially into vital commodities) could cause hyperinflation.  Will the destruction of credit that Mish talks about matter in this case?  Please tell me where my logic is flawed.

Brian

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Student Loans Surpasse Credit Card Debt

 

That is just scary how much debt young students are saddled with. It's almost as if someone wants young healthy people to be in debt to them for life.

Poet

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Re: One of THE BEST Articles that I Have EVER Read!

Thanks Davos. Very good article.

Coop

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Re: One of THE BEST Articles that I Have EVER Read!
bluestone wrote:

They mention in the video that Japan still owns $1 trillion of US debt, foreign nations combined hold $4 trillion of US debt, and total debt (foreign nations and citizens) hold $10 trillion.  (im not sure about the $10 trillion, but I know the other two numbers are just about correct).  What is going to prevent these foreigners from dumping their dollars and using them to bid up the price of important commodities such as food and fuel? 

Foreigners wouldn't even have to dump Treasuries. A more likely scenario is a buyer's strike -- a glitch damages confidence, and foreigners withdraw from new auctions. But they are half of the buy-side market. Then, either yields must go up to attract more US domestic buyers (but this means prices are falling, which will scare those already on board) ... OR, the Federal Reserve steps in to make up the difference, which will undermine confidence in the dollar as wholesale monetization starts.

The weak-dollar scenario would lead to sharp hikes in food and fuel prices, simply because of the exchange rate. But speculators would likely pile on too, as in crude oil's apocalyptic run-up to $147 a barrel.

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Re: One of THE BEST Articles that I Have EVER Read!

The debt is only monetized twice if it the debt asset ends up in the hands of the Fed, and then only the difference between the value given by the Fed and the fair value of the asset is monetized. This has certainly happened a lot in the past year and a half.

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Re: One of THE BEST Articles that I Have EVER Read!
blue wrote:

when I hear the deflationists speak, they seem to conveniently ignore all the debt/dollars held by foreign nations and foreigners......What is going to prevent these foreigners from dumping their dollars and using them to bid up the price of important commodities

I can't speak for the others, but my deflation view is based precisely on the global situation.  China, Japan, and the private global banking institutions didn't buy trillions in Treasuries to dump them.  They bought them because they expect to be paid.  The power they have now trumps all other forms of power in the world.  It's a mega hammer being held over the US' head.  If the US steps out of line from the capital holders' perspective, it will be hammered into submission.  This is the threat that will probably keep it in line.  If it steps out of line and the hammer comes down, i.e. the global institutions run on Treasuries by not showing up at auctions, the US' response to that is what will determine deflation vs. hyperinflation.  The Fed's automatic response will be to jack up short rates to defend its balance sheet, i.e. please the capital holders, which will cause mega deflation and austerity (it's our turn to experience what the IMF has enforced on the poor people in the South for decades).  If the US says no to the Fed and tries to cutoff the capital holders by printing actual dollars for its people without defending its financial borders first, that will be hyperinflation.

What these Treasury holders know (assuming countries don't free themselves from the bond market, i.e. debt-based money) is that the 21st century will witness the epic decline of the West/North (deflation) and rise of the East/South with China emerging as the global leader of a more equalized planet by 2050.  China is all about long-term stability...it thinks in 50 year increments vs. the US quarterly mindset.  And Confucianism is all about discipline and obedience.  The Confucianists will attempt to transition the West into vassal states in an orderly fashion over the next 40 years.  But if it needs to play whac-a-mole, it has the hammer now thanks to the bond market, the global banking establishment, and the corporate system's transfer of production assets to it.

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Re: One of THE BEST Articles that I Have EVER Read!

thanks Machinehead.  that sounds like the "bond vigilantes" that they describe on Financial Sense Newshour.  So let me get this correct.  You believe that the failed auction itself could lead to not only inflation, but even hyperinflation.  (maybe you discussed this in your article.  i'll have to renew my membership to read it). 

btw - is that a picture of Hank Williams?

Brian

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Re: One of THE BEST Articles that I Have EVER Read!
strabes wrote:

If it steps out of line and the hammer comes down, i.e. the global institutions run on Treasuries by not showing up at auctions, the US' response to that is what will determine deflation vs. hyperinflation.  The Fed's automatic response will be to jack up short rates to defend its balance sheet, i.e. please the capital holders, which will cause mega deflation and austerity (it's our turn to experience what the IMF has enforced on the poor people in the South for decades).

I can see how raising rates could help future auctions be successful and may increase the currency's value, but how would it defend the FED's balance sheet?  If the FED already has loads of Treasuries and MBS on its balance sheet, wouldn't raising rates damage the value of the existing "ASSETS" it already has on its balance sheet?  Wouldn't the FED be commiting suicide?

Am I looking at this incorrectly?

strabes wrote:

If the US says no to the Fed and tries to cutoff the capital holders by printing actual dollars for its people without defending its financial borders first, that will be hyperinflation.

I agree with this but that seem contradictory to what many of the sovereign money supporters believe.  How would you "defend the financial borders"?

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Re: One of THE BEST Articles that I Have EVER Read!
bluestone wrote:

thanks Machinehead.  that sounds like the "bond vigilantes" that they describe on Financial Sense Newshour.  So let me get this correct.  You believe that the failed auction itself could lead to not only inflation, but even hyperinflation.  (maybe you discussed this in your article.  i'll have to renew my membership to read it). 

btw - is that a picture of Hank Williams?

Brian

A failed Treasury auction, even for technical reasons (for instance, 9/11 happened on a Tuesday, but if it had occurred the morning before, what then? -- the stock market closed for the rest of the week), would be a serious event. The US government is highly dependent on these auctions going off smoothly. The Treasury doesn't usually keep enough cash on hand to pay off maturing debt. It needs to roll over existing debt, and add more. This is the same sort of short-term financing risk which forced commercial paper issuers to scramble for backup bank credit lines during the Lehman crisis.

Statistically, hyperinflation is a long shot, just as a market crash is. Gonzalo Lira wrote a vivid scenario for a hyperinflation, but its probability remains low for now. The strange thing about markets is their tendency toward quantum shifts in sentiment, like an electron leaping from one orbit to another.

In 2009, southern European sovereign debt was popular, offering a slight yield pickup over northern Europe. Then in early 2010, it was revealed that Greece's finances had been misstated. In a matter of weeks, all southern European debt was suspect. The euro weakened, but the larger countries (France, Germany) functioned as anchors.

Nobody can predict the timing of such events. But one distinction is that the euro currency area has a roughly neutral trade balance, whereas the US is in chronic deficit to the tune of $50 billion a month.

http://www.tradingeconomics.com/Economics/Balance-of-Trade.aspx?Symbol=EUR

The US is very dependent on a lifeline of foreign capital imports. This is an obvious risk factor. Markets, with their nose for vulnerability, will test it someday. Rising interest rates and a falling dollar don't HAVE to blossom into hyperinflation -- but they might.

As ol' Hank said [that's his picture]:

Now you're lookin' at a man that's gettin' kinda mad
I had lots of luck but it's all been bad
No matter how I struggle and strive
I'll never get out of this world alive

Nor will the US dollar, I assure you. Frown

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Re: One of THE BEST Articles that I Have EVER Read!
machinehead wrote:

Nor will the US dollar, I assure you. Frown

+1

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Re: One of THE BEST Articles that I Have EVER Read!

Strabes and Machinehead.  thanks for the input and more to ponder.... and Hank Williams is right, none of us will get out of this world alive.


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Re: One of THE BEST Articles that I Have EVER Read!

I think it should be mentioned that Mish always points to the fact that the entire credit market debt is at or near $52 Trillion. The US National Federal debt stands at $13.3 Trillion.

Mish and other deflationists are talking about credit destruction as money velocity remains under 1.00 and loans are being paid back (deflationary) while new loans just are not being extended for two reasons:

1. very little appetite for debt, consumers and businesses are either saturated with debt or wary about taking on the risk because of uncertainty

2. banks don't want to lend to anything but AAA rated lenders because they have got all the beta (risk) they could possibly ever need.

people on this site and elsewhere seem to forget how money comes into existence all of a sudden, the banking system creates more than 90% through the fractional reserve banking system. Without banks lending money the fractional reserve system breaks down and heads toward credit contraction.

You have two forces fighting it out right now, the destruction of credit money in one corner and the insertion of high-powered money from the Federal Reserve in the other corner... and the fight isn't even close. I wish I had the ability, but I would compare M3 (credit money) and M0 (high powered money) on a chart and show you how pathetic the attempts by the Fed are. In a fractional reserve banking system the Fed doesn't make the majority of the money in the system, the banks do.

The Fed and Treasury and Congress will try with all their might but without risk appetite by both lendors and borrowers the money machine just doens't work properly. If risk appetite does return with some vigor, then watch out becuase the Fed has put a little too much igniter fuel on the coals.  But I think we all see the reality here... significant economic expansion is a pipe dream, so in my opinion hyperinflation is a pipe dream as well.

On another note.

The possibilty of every country trading in their Treasuries for commodities all at the same time has the same probability as my dog speaking fluent English all of a sudden. 'Speak Ubu, Speak!'. I think Mish has it right when he says that it would have to be a Shazaam' moment, if Obama peels back his face to reveal he is an alien, Shazaam, then maybe I could see an exit from the US marketplace all at once. Otherwise, it will be a slow and orderly exit over the course of years and the US dollar will drift into unimportance as another currency gains power.

Conclusion:

Hyperinflation - Very low probability, maybe 2%

Mass selloff of Treasuries - Very low probability, maybe 2%

 

 

 

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Re: One of THE BEST Articles that I Have EVER Read!
goes wrote:

how would it defend the FED's balance sheet?

the non-state capital institutions/funds (the "market") control most rates, so the run on Treasuries people are referring to here would be the market forcing higher rates, which is what would threaten the Fed's balance sheet.  then the Fed's only option would be to jack up the short rate it controls, which sucks the life out of the current economy (extreme austerity), which pushes money back toward the long-end of the yield curve, i.e. shores up the Treasury market and defends the Fed's balance sheet.

this is the endgame scenario.  it's the high-stakes risk point that the global central banks are working hard to avoid.  I hope we avoid it for a while longer.  I hope we avoid it completely as the stabilizing effect of China manages things down slowly over a long period of time.  but given our imperial military quests and lack of self-imposed austerity on welfare/medicare/social sec/etc I don't see how it's avoidable unless we change the monetary system from the current central bank model (which serves capital holders vs. the people, as the endgame scenario proves) to a different system. 

goes wrote:

I agree with this but that seem contradictory to what many of the sovereign money supporters believe.  How would you "defend the financial borders"?

Nationalize the Fed and gain control of the primary dealers (kicking out the foreign ones, breaking up or nationalizing the domestic ones, or usury laws to prevent capital flight from cranking up the interest rate vacuum machine).  I know this sounds extreme, but that's the situation we're in.  The only way to have a sovereign country is to take back control of money.  Otherwise the endgame of nation-states is unavoidable. 

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Re: One of THE BEST Articles that I Have EVER Read!
kemosavvy wrote:

On another note.

The possibilty of every country trading in their Treasuries for commodities all at the same time has the same probability as my dog speaking fluent English all of a sudden. 'Speak Ubu, Speak!'. I think Mish has it right when he says that it would have to be a Shazaam' moment, if Obama peels back his face to reveal he is an alien, Shazaam, then maybe I could see an exit from the US marketplace all at once. Otherwise, it will be a slow and orderly exit over the course of years and the US dollar will drift into unimportance as another currency gains power.

Conclusion:

Hyperinflation - Very low probability, maybe 2%

Mass selloff of Treasuries - Very low probability, maybe 2%

Although I'm solidly in the short-medium term deflation camp, I think it is a mistake to underestimate the possibility of a major swing in confidence, which is mainly what hyperinflation comes down to. Especially in these uncertain times, hyperinflation may become more of a sociopolitical event rather than a strictly economic/monetary one. GL's article presents some pretty interesting and unique points regarding the process that will collapse the treasury bubble and cause hyperinflation. If all those institutional investors sitting on mountains of cash and treasuries suddenly see an opening in more risky assets, they could set off a feedback that eventually leads to everyday consumers pulling savings out of the bank and buying all the hard assets they can get their hands on.

My issue with GL's article is what he assumes will cause this sudden investment shift towards specific commodities that soon leads to a loss of confidence in treasuries. It seems unlikely that a spike in oil price due to an Israeli attack of Iran would be enough to set that process in motion. After all we recently had a significant runup in grain prices mainly due to droughts in Russia, but we're still in a global deflationary process. I've always thought something as signficant as mainstream peak oil awareness would be enough to trigger hyperinflation, but I'm not sure anything less than that would suffice.

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Re: One of THE BEST Articles that I Have EVER Read!

kemosavvy,

Thanks for your comments. I found them to be the most useful among the lot. Overall Deflation seems the most logical continuation of things. Was just talking to a fellow who had a well dug back in 2006. The price he paid back then was $18 per foot. He says he could now have that same well dug for $10 per foot. I speak to everyone from Doctors to plumbers and the general consensus is that "everyone is broke." 

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Re: One of THE BEST Articles that I Have EVER Read!

I'm finding this whole discussion to be very helpful and in the best tradition of CM.  Thanks to all.

Doug

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Re: One of THE BEST Articles that I Have EVER Read!

ashvinp,

I'd like to counter your peak-oil-hyperinflation theory before I drifft off into la-la land for the night.

Just because the value of a barrel of oil is going up doesn't mean that the price of oil should go up as well. For example, during deflation the value of your dollar goes up while the price of everything goes down. The same is true for a barrel of oil, the value of oil could be reaching all-time highs while at the same time the amount of dollars in circulation is getting less (credit contraction), therefore the price may go down for oil.

The reason I say 'may go down' is that you then have to consider which is appreciating more, the dollar or a barrel of oil. My point is that you can still have Peak Oil in times of deflation. hopefully that makes sense.

Steve

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Re: One of THE BEST Articles that I Have EVER Read!
machinehead wrote:

Nor will the US dollar, I assure you. Frown

What situation, other than hyperinflation, can decapitate the dollar?

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Re: One of THE BEST Articles that I Have EVER Read!
M.E. wrote:
machinehead wrote:

Nor will the US dollar, I assure you. Frown

What situation, other than hyperinflation, can decapitate the dollar?

Hyperinflation isn't a cause. Hyperinflation is a symptom. Specifically a symptom of a dollar being made worthless.

Since its inception, the Fed has created so many dollars (in conjunction with our politicians over spending) that the value of the dollar has gone down 95%. This happened to the Roman Empire - but it took them 300 years to debase the Denarii that much.

Think of money as something else other than digital and paper. Think of money as if we all got paid in bags of grain. One year there is a bumper crop of grain and you and I have a barn full of it. So does everyone else. It is so plentiful it is worth less and takes 2 barns to buy a house. Then this year there is a dry season and one bag of grain is so valuable that half of it buys a house.

Economics is nothing but supply and demand. Many folks don't look at the supply and demand with the money.

They will.

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Re: One of THE BEST Articles that I Have EVER Read!

ashvinp,

A lead onto what kemosavvy has written was covered in depth by Gail The Actuary at 'The Oil Drum' back in June of this year, with her post : -

What happens when energy resources deplete? 

Gail The Actuary wrote:

Snippet

[Another] view, popular among those concerned about peak-oil, is that oil and energy prices will just keep rising. If scalable substitutes aren't found, some expect that oil prices will rise from their current price of $75 barrel, to $100 barrel, to $200 barrel, to $300 barrel, and eventually to $1,000 barrel or more.

The problem with this view is that it doesn't take into account the amount of money people actually have available to spend. Just because oil or energy prices rise doesn't mean that people will get additional income to cover these higher expenditures. In real life, prices can't keep going up.

{Continued ...}

I also highly recommend you listen to Nicole Foss (also known as Stoneleigh of The Automatic Earth), who gave a lecture as part of the Transistion Town Totnes workshop on June 8th of this year called : - 

Making Sense of the Financial Crisis in the Era of Peak Oil

Ruhh put up a thread for it, and here's a link to that also.

I'm certain these links will give you plenty to think about ...

Take Care,

~ VF ~

 

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