New JFK or Abe Lincoln Needed

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stanstent's picture
stanstent
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New JFK or Abe Lincoln Needed

What is needed is a new JFK or Abraham Lincoln,  but this time with the hindsight to be wearing a bullet-proof vest.  They both issued debt free money tied to gold/silver.   The state of Guernsey, Channel Islands issued fiat money after the Napoleonic wars and thrived on it.    Why not a whisper of similar options in the present crisis,  even among dissenters?

Stan

Nichoman's picture
Nichoman
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Re: New JFK or Abe Lincoln Needed

Completely disagree.  One person can't fix this.  We have a neanderthal, broken system.  We've totally dismissed the very wise 5 principles in Washington's "Farewell Address To The People".  This is document praised as the finest document on governance besides The Constitution and Declaration Of Independence.  This list of leaders who say this are:  Alexander Hamilton, James Madison, Thomas Jefferson, John Adams, Andrew Jackson, Abraham Lincoln and Theodore Roosevelt just to name a few.

 

Submit if we truly adhere to these 3 documents, would aid making the tough choices desperately needed.

 

Nichoman 

  

switters's picture
switters
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Re: New JFK or Abe Lincoln Needed

I think Obama actually has similar rhetorical and leadership ability to Lincoln and JFK.  But that will only be helfpul if those qualities are used in the service of actually addressing the real problems we're facing.  Unfortunately, that isn't likely to happen unless things get so dire that Americans finally accept the fact that business as usual is over and cannot ever return.  Despite all of the recent economic pain, we're not even close to being there yet. 

I think Obama is a good man and I voted for him, but as Nichoman said this isn't a problem that one leader - no matter how strong - can fix.  Especially in our democratic system of checks and balances.  Even if Obama fully understood what needed to be done, he would not be able to do it.  As broken as our political system is, it is still a nominal democracy and therefore the elected leaders must represent the will of the people.  If Obama, or any other leader, tries to push through a lot of legislation that calls for sacrifice and voluntary reduction in standard of living, it's not likely to pass.  Citizens will complain to their senators and Congressional representatives, and they won't vote for it.

I don't think we can look to national governments for solutions.  Local action is bound to be far more effective and meaningful.

gregroberts's picture
gregroberts
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Re: New JFK or Abe Lincoln Needed

Just what we need, more warmongers, Lincoln the Cival War and the 14th amendment, JFK the Vietnam war, although I have recently found that JFK was trying to eliminate the Federal Reserve and if this is true I will hold his memory in higher regard.

“However . . . each successive administration build upon the tyranny of the past . . . Abe Lincoln was the worst.  He killed the last hope of a genuine Republic.” Among Sartre’s list of others: Hamilton, Wilson, FDR, LBJ, and Clinton.

 Abe Lincoln quote...

"I will say then that I am not, nor ever have been in favor of bringing about in anyway the social and political equality of the white and black races - that I am not nor ever have been in favor of making voters or jurors of negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people; and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the white and black races which I believe will forever forbid the two races living together on terms of social and political equality. And inasmuch as they cannot so live, while they do remain together there must be the position of superior and inferior, and I as much as any other man am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race. I say upon this occasion I do not perceive that because the white man is to have the superior position the negro should be denied everything."  

The Civil War was never about freeing the slaves, that ended up being just PR gravy for Lincoln, it was about the South wanting to secede from the Union. I don't have time to go into all the details.

"Still, it was probably unnecessary. Lincoln precipitated war not by seeking an end to slavery — which would have at least been a just cause, if not one for which a bloody war was the proper solution — but by basing much of his presidential campaign around a proposal to double the federal tariff.

You have to understand how seriously Southerners took tax policy. South Carolina had almost seceded in 1832 over the issue. Because the South exported about three-quarters of its goods and used much of the proceeds to purchase European goods, it shouldered a disproportionate share of federal taxes, which, to add insult to injury, were spent disproportionately in the North and West. "

krogoth's picture
krogoth
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What is needed is nothing short of a true miracle

What is needed is nothing short of a true miracle

A JFK or Lincoln? OK I don't even want to comment on that but briefly because I could write multiple pages. Lincoln was greatly misunderstood, and you need to study up on him a bit more to make that statement. JFK, love him as we all do, did go up against the Federal Reserve, but if we had the press we have today in JFK's time, I think history would have wrote about him and Bobby Kennedy much differently. The president still had quite a blanket of protection from the media in general as the president had a level of built in respect and privacy with that office back then. Opening that cornucopia of secrets would make Clinton look like a castrated buddist, and change America's opinion about JFK considerably. God my mom loves him so to this day. Being from a half Irish family, it was practically a law.

We got us a government today where they just push us to see how far they can, and the breaking point has considerably strengthened over the last 20 or so years. We are being conditioned to take even more. More terrorism scares, economic jihad, and all sorts of other fun from our new overlords.

NO president comes to mind to face the kind of problems that exist and whatever history making process we will go through until it ends, and how it ends.

As for Obama, he will get set up Carter style, taking the blame for 8 years of Bush in some way or another. A good man, yes I think so. Can he change the system, no. The system is and has been broken for a long time, and not many are interested in fixing or replacing it anytime soon. You play by the rules or they will find a way to discredit you or get rid of you. Once they are done with Obama, we will be all lining up to get a quasi Regan type again. The president does not have as much individual power as most would believe. It's a group effort, and a bad group.

Our system now runs on 3 ingredients. The blood, tears and lives of our people, all of our people. It should run on other ingredients because right now the system is extremely hungry for fuel.

 

 

 

 

 

 

FNKRoue's picture
FNKRoue
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Re: New JFK or Abe Lincoln Needed

He was a crackpot dismissed from the news when he was running in the election.  But now he's on all time time being asked for his wisdom concerning the financial situation, now that his crockpot commentary seems truth.  RIP Ron Paul for President 2008.

 

And end to the fed would have been something the president COULD do and a good start.  Beyond that a president aware of the very issues defined in the crash course educating the populace directly would have been ideal.  oh well. 

rowmat's picture
rowmat
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Re: New JFK or Abe Lincoln Needed
switters wrote:

I think Obama actually has similar rhetorical and leadership ability to Lincoln and JFK.  But that will only be helfpul if those qualities are used in the service of actually addressing the real problems we're facing.  Unfortunately, that isn't likely to happen unless things get so dire that Americans finally accept the fact that business as usual is over and cannot ever return.  Despite all of the recent economic pain, we're not even close to being there yet. 

I think Obama is a good man and I voted for him, but as Nichoman said this isn't a problem that one leader - no matter how strong - can fix.  Especially in our democratic system of checks and balances.  Even if Obama fully understood what needed to be done, he would not be able to do it.  As broken as our political system is, it is still a nominal democracy and therefore the elected leaders must represent the will of the people.  If Obama, or any other leader, tries to push through a lot of legislation that calls for sacrifice and voluntary reduction in standard of living, it's not likely to pass.  Citizens will complain to their senators and Congressional representatives, and they won't vote for it.

I don't think we can look to national governments for solutions.  Local action is bound to be far more effective and meaningful.

Unfortunately most Americans are likely to be their own worst enemy when it comes to the... "recession they had to have." (a famous quote from an Australian politician.)

I too somehow doubt if most will willingly accept many additional sacrifices over and above what they already are and will, in the future, be facing in order to rebuild the economy. Most will be suffering anyway and won't take kindly if they are told they have to suffer even more in order to climb out of the quagmeyer. The public will be expecting the Government, especially a newly elected one, to make things better, not worse.

Okay so they might give Obama between six to twelve months to start turning the ship around, but the ship has struck an iceberg, is terminally holed and is going to sink first before a new ship can be built.

The current debt based economic model must (and will) completely fail, and one would hope it would not simply be patched up and relaunched, but be replaced with something else altogether. (End the Fed!!) This financial (and social) breakdown is going to play out right through Obama's term in office.

It doesn't matter what his administration implements as it will be the length of this recession/depression that will be the main issue. People are going to get tired and literally run out of hope unless things have really begun to improve before the end of Obama's term.

I completely agree with you about local action. People will need start start forming local community support groups. Food security and housing is one. Think laterally. Start a community vegetable garden. Rather than paying people to work it. Think about offering accomodation to people who have lost their incomes and homes in return for helping to produce food.This kind of thing helps everyone and makes for more resilient communties which will be essential for many to ride out the coming storm. If you wait for the politicians to save your ass you may as well kiss it goodbye now!

Regardless of who's at fault, ultimately Obama is going to be seen as the President who precided over the biggest financial and social breakdown in U.S. history, and with the christian conservatives believing that these dark times are the start of a biblical phrophecy coming true, I'll give you just one guess as to who's going to be the next President of the U.S.A in 2012.

Any idea?...

"I'll be back...Charley!"

stanstent's picture
stanstent
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Posts: 2
Re: New JFK or Abe Lincoln Needed

In reply to the answers to my first post:--

In my first post I was
looking only at the attempts to appropriate to the treasury the
Constitutional right to issue money. By comparison the other issues
raised in the replies are minor. The devolution to the private
cartel, The Federal Reserve, the right to create money and lend it at
interest in 1913 was totally contrary to the Constitution and hence
illegal. It still remains so.

As a British subject
(we are not citizens over here) I am likewise indebted to the Bank of
England but this is totally legal. We have no effective constitution
and The Bank of England derives from a royal charter in 1697;
William of Orange wanted money to fight the French and we have been
lumbered with 'his' Bank ever since.

 

On June 4th
1963 JFK signed Executive Order 11110. This gave the treasury the
power to issue silver backed money. This order has not been
repealed. Why, I ask, is E.O.11110 so little known about? Does a
conspiracy silence obtain here?

The reference to
Guernsey in my original post was to indicate the viability of fiat
money if it is correctly managed. After the Napoleonic wars the
island was in dire need of public works. It had materials and
manpower but had no money. The Governor was persuaded to issue
paper money un-backed by gold or silver. The island prospered like
never before for some ten years on the debt-free money until it was
forced to return to Sterling currency by sanctions introduced by the
international bankers.

In
answer to the individual replies to my post:

Nichoman

JFK's
contribution to us here and now was to show what could be
done. It is indeed rather fortunate for the central banking system
that he died when he did.

I
defer to your better knowledge of American history on the rest of
your post.

switters

Business
as usual is over – the growth economy is no longer viable.
Unfortunately Obama, good man as he is, seems to be committed to
growth at all costs. Or is he? Is he perhaps playing a clever
deception towards a higher purpose? I would like to hope so.

The
real problem is not peak oil, peak GHGs .... peak everything, but
Peak Money. Unless we tackle the debt money system first the rest
is just rearranging the deckchairs.

Local
action, yes, I agree but the people need a leader who will inspire
them to work towards fundamental changes. It is bound to be
uncomfortable but lets not make it worse by doing nothing.

I
take your point about democracy. A better representation of the true
situation in the media might help – but that of course would not
sell papers. You know, in the UK, the first election after WW II
that kicked Winston Churchill out of office was said to have been won
on the promise of half a pound of butter on the ration.

gregroberts

JFK
was warmongering? By my reading he was working to end the war in
Vietnam. As a Brit, your generosity towards the Blacks leaves me
feeling very sorry for your neighbours.

krogoth

“The
evil men do lives after them. The good is oft interred with their
bones.”I
really think we should judge officials by how they perform their job,
not by how they perform in bed.

Sadly,
I think that the rest of your post is only too true. Unless the
passion for growth, growth and yet more growth is ended then the
system's hunger will end in an apocalyptic gluttonous frenzy. The
plate will then indeed be bare. I know I'm looking at this from
across the Atlantic but the ramifications are indeed global.

FNKRoue

If
you are superstitious then keep your fingers crossed, and toes.

He
may just be playing a subtle game. See 'switters' above.

rowmat

I
concur totally with what you say. There is so much inertia in
society that I cannot see that we really have time to turn the ship.
This is especially so because vested interests have the power to
control the helm; a fear of fundamental change among the misinformed
populace will mean that the people will back the vested interests.

If
the popular media would publish a few basic truths perhaps it could
sway a grass roots support for change from the top. Truths like (1)
There was no income tax before 1913 and since then it has gone to the
Federal Reserve in settlement of debt. The nation would be
that
much better off without the 'Fed'.  (2) War is one of the ways in
which the money system's requirement for growth is met. (3) The
massive amount money that is currently being 'borrowed' to prop up
the system was created out of nothing and is diluting the value of
the money in our pockets
and
it has to be repaid with interest. (4) To repay that interest even
more money has to be borrowed, at interest.

Mmm...
Difficult one to get over, isn't it?

Stan.

 

Ray Hewitt's picture
Ray Hewitt
Status: Gold Member (Offline)
Joined: Apr 5 2008
Posts: 458
Re: New JFK or Abe Lincoln Needed

What's needed is for government to get the hell out of the way. But since that won't happen, expect a depression longer and deeper than the last. I built that scenario into my calcuations, decades ago. I've seen no reason to change it.

Here's today's headlines:

WASHINGTON - U.S. President-elect Barack Obama said on Saturday that he
was crafting an aggressive, two-year stimulus plan to revive the
troubled economy, warning that swift action was needed to prevent a
deep slump and a spiral of falling prices.

Since government doesn't produce anything and because it has to take from the private economy, his stimulus plan is the akin to blood-letting a bleeding patient.

 

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