New here and scared

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L.Bev's picture
L.Bev
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New here and scared

I just finished watching the CC.  I first started thinking about all the problems in these terms back in about 2002 when I took a course called "Plants and Man" with a professor named Tim Allen (no, not the guy from Home Improvement) at the University of Wisconsin.  He was a botany prof. who studied hierarchy theory and complexity in biological systems.   The message was scary back then, but not as scary as it is now, because the data and experience in the past 6 years have really put crunch time right at our doorstep.

I grew up in Wisconsin and am currently studying environmental law in Portland, OR.  I don't law has much of a future, and environmental law even less so.  Protection of the environment is a luxury, as much as I hate to admit it.  I'm squiming in my skin right now thining about my own situation.  No savings.  Graduating in 2010 at which time I'll proably have about $85k in debt.  2000 miles from family and close friends.  Don't own any land.  I feel like I'm totally unprepared for anything.  Just about the only upside is that hyperinflation will make my debts easy to pay off!

 What I really want to do is move back home immediately and start helping to set up a local agricultural co-op.  However, the investment I already have in law school (almost half done with only about 18 months after that) means I'd be a fool to cut and run with my currenty student debt of about $35k.

Best case scenario for me is to graduate, move back to Madison, and practice law for a few years.  I could pay off my debt and hopefully save up enough money to get some land and home near my parents.  My hometown is surrounded by top-notch incredible farmland and sits on top of a great aquifer.  There are already CSA farms in the area, and I think my best bet would be to try to get involved with them.  I'm an only child and will eventually have two aged parents.  I expect to end up taking care of them sometime in the future.  We're not a wealthy family, but comfortably middle class.  My parents have a decent amount of savings, but it has been greatly eroded because it was tied up largely in equities. 

 

I feel like I'm just rambling now......   Bottom line:  I don't share Chris's excitement about the future.  I'm deeply pessimistic about it, which isn't helped by my inability to do anything about it in the short term.  It's going to be hard for me to sleep tonight.

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Re: New here and scared

L.Bev;  Your rambling was sufficient to elicit my first post in these forums. 

As apparent by the time of this post (I'm in the same time zone as you), I too often share your pessimism.  I first suggest that you search for Chris's post a couple weeks ago regarding the six stages of grief / acceptance.  If nothing else it may give you an understanding of how common your response to these stresses is.

There is little that I can offer you for help on savings or debt, as I don't seem to have these points quite mastered myself yet. ;-) I will offer encouragement for getting to this site, and beginning your journey.  Also, I think that there may be great future in environmental law, as long as you are not expecting porsches and manhattan townhouses.  I personally expect gov't regulation to become so overbearing that any company wishing to undertake any project worthy of mention will require a team of (fairly, but not necessarily lavishly, rewarded) counsel just to do business.

Just my penny's worth. 

(Anyone ever stop to consider that the saying 'penny for your thoughts' likely dates bsck to a time when a penny was actually a unit that represented a usable value?  Todays equivalent might be 'a fiver for your thoughts'?)

 

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Re: New here and scared- don't be!

It has been said that "for every door that closes, two more open up."  

Your post says two different things.  In one breath you have nothing, and despair over it.  Then, you go on to explain a real legitimate plan for your future!

Consider that you have already done more than the majority - educated yourself.  Now, keep it up!  Learn how to learn more.  In a perfect world you would already have a successful business, a farm, abundance of food and resources, and Mom & Dad would would be traveling the world!  But, that's not reality.  In this life we make plans, both short and long term, and then we WORK to achieve them.  BTW, resolve yourself to the need for contingency plans, because the world has this way of screwing up your best plans!

Sounds to me like you've got a good head on your shoulders, and a good start.  If you focus some of that fear energy to planning and execution energy, you'll do just fine. 

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L Bev please read

L Bev, you will get a lot of different opinions here. Some good, some scary and some absurd. Please read my post about the different levels of our opinions, and don't be scared. We are all in this together. I hope we all stay that way.

 

http://www.peakprosperity.com/forum/diversity-our-individual-opinions/8844

 

 

 

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Re: New here and scared

Reminiscent of The Graduate, my advice to you son is to switch to bankruptcy  or criminal law.

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Re: New here and scared

Whoa, this forum moves faster and stays up later than I expected!  Thanks for the thoughful responses everyone. 

Wilson:  I wish I shared your optimism about law!  I really don't think strict regulation will be high on the priority list though.  People will hate that, and we're still a democracy, so any policy to implement that won't last long.  Furthermore, when the government is strapped for resources, enforcement of administrative laws is one of the first things to go.  Heck, our government hasn't proving to be very serious about enforcing admin. laws even when it had plenty of money, just look at the last 8 years at the IRS, BLM, EPA, SEC.....

I checked out that thread you posted krogoth.  Whether or not your characterization of people is right, there's a good narrative in there.  One response caught my eye:  "To be clear I'm not talking about living in a commune.  I'm thinking
about small towns surrounded by arable land, with no more than
30-40,000 people, access to water and a reasonably informed population."

This reminds me of Rousseau's concept of the proper sized political entity.  He pictured something just abou this size as being the only entity that could be truly sustainable over long periods of time.   Many US counties are on this scale.  In fact, almost all of them are, unless they contain large urban areas, and few counties do.  I expect county, town, and city governents will become much more important than they currently are.  My home county is about 60k people and home to one major urban center (located smack in the middle), plus a major river, several smaller rivers, and a major university.   I think we have all the elements to be an effective unit of production when cut off from all but nearby trading partners.

 

 BTW, I was a philosophy major in college.  It makes the enormity of these issues a bit easier for me to understand, since I'm used to taking ideas to their most extreme limits.  It was nice to see my old friend Arthur Schopenhauer quoted in the CC.  I wrote my term paper on hierarchy therory and systems analysis based on an interpreation of his work "The World as Will and Representation" as being a sort of proto version of modern hierarchy theory.  I should dig that paper up, I could probably learn things from it since it's been 5 years since I wrote it. 

As satisfying as an "I told you so" moment can be, I'm not looking forward to the moment when the predictions in the CC become "accepted as self-evident."

 

I just fired off a message to an old friend on facebook.  He's in extreme remote Alaska, teaching at a tiny school full of native Alaskans.  He grew up raising chickens, growing a huge garden, tending a small orchard, and heating the family's home with wood harvested from a 40 acre plot of forested land they owned a mile or so from the house.  Him and I have had long discussions about these issues in the past and generally see eye to eye.  He's a very intelligent, very knowlegable person, and I'm hoping that somehow he and I can end up back home working to organize people and get local supply systems set up. 

 

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Re: New here and scared
hewittr wrote:

Reminiscent of The Graduate, my advice to you son is to switch to bankruptcy or criminal law.

 

Who will pay me to do criminal law? If the government can't collect taxes effectively, that means no pay for prosecutors or public defenders. Potentially there will still be a market for privately retained defense counsel, but if the gov't has no money, that means no indictments, which means no need for defense attorneys! Criminal enforcement may become a much less court-driven process. This is bad.

 

Bankruptcy law? Well I guess it's a growth industry in the short run. I don't want to learn all that crap though, makes my head hurt much more than the clean air act, clean water act, CERCLA, etc. Plus I'm already waist deep in env. law credits and would probably need to stay here longer to respecialize.

 

 

I gotta get some sleep, will check back tomorrow.  Here's to prosperity!

 

BTW, that group "Project for a New American Century" picked a really good name to stick on a really crappy agenda. 

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Re: New here and scared

That wasn't a serious recommendation. Though a Depression on the magnititude and length of what this is going to be will keep bankruptcy and criminal lawyers busy for a long time, maybe decades.

If truth be told, if I was a lawyer, I would have reason to be shit scared.

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Re: New here and scared
L.Bev wrote:

BTW, that group "Project for a New American Century" picked a really good name to stick on a really crappy agenda. 

They only said New, not Good, nor Great, nor Free, nor Libertine.  And frankly, though it's been a couple years since I read it, I found  that document absolute hell to get through.  I am unwilling to ignore the evils of men, yet never cease to be sickened at the extent thereof.

Back to my original point, you correctly specify that you live in a democracy, though I believe you were probably trying to (incorrectly) say republic.  (as your neighbour to the north, I can only loosely claim the former on  principle, and the latter is only a pipe dream, so this stone is admittedly being flung from a house of glass!)  Given the willingness of the populace of most of the western world to succumb to 'the greater good', I see no reason that a democratic establishment would have any trouble rallying support for (further) environmental and climate change regulation.  And never underestimate the governmental allure of confiscatory user fees and/or fines & penalties (can you say Carbon Cap? I knew you could!) as a replacement for falling confiscatory taxation.

In any event, I hope you awaken to a great Sunday, and that as these topics settle in, you come to see opportunities that you may wish to participate in.

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Re: New here and scared

My children are your age and older. I have been watching this day come for over a decade and I still don't really grasp the gravity of the situation and time in the history I now occupy my little spot on the planet. Now I am old, my body has been crippled with pain from disease and in the physical I have not aged well in general. Oh ya I have a 2+ acre garden but I have employed many labor saving organic techniques and occasionally go begging for help from able bodied souls. I am a treasure trove of understanding in horticulture and sustainable farming but the people around me are so busy it appears I will take it all to the grave. I give the food away to who so ever but way to much rots in the field. I felt the desire and need to really expand the capacity of the garden last spring in preparation for the events we are observing. I hope to expand even more come next spring. I know by then all hell will have broken lose.

The fabric of America's society has changed for the worse. The great evil forming the soul is through media of all sorts. Truly we are are media junkies. The propaganda machine blares night and day in most peoples lives. Madison Avenue marketeers have mastered the channels to the RAS reticular activating system. We no longer live as community eye to eye hand to hand but more like beasts flirting from one immediate gratification to the next all at the hyper speed of an MTV phallic beat brainwashing moment. Our culture has the depth of a Popsicle in a car with the windows up on a hot summer day, the Popsicle lasts as long as infants left in a car seat while daddy slams some beers while drooling at the legs. If ya want to know what humanity looks like when calamity strikes reflect on the events that hot summer night in the super dome in New Orleans after Katrina. But of course we found a convenient scape goat it was daddy big gov, it was all his fault that we brutalized one another all night long. No my scarred one you have no idea of the depravity of godless man. Humanity has never faced the fullness of evil running a muck and knowing he has but a short time. The bravest of men, their hearts will from fear cry out for death but will not have the courage to find it. 

 But there is a pearl of great price which allows one who holds it by the hand the capacity to endure all things. Madison Avenue through the RAS has infiltrated the depths of conscience and without this one pearl we are mere bipedal mopeds, beastly in all aspects of the word, ticking bombs waiting for the encrypted download from master control. There is hope! The pearl has transforming power to tame the beast within, cleanse the RAS. But prideful, lustful self gratifying man is like the Popsicle perishing like a mist of vapor. I know him well for truly he is me without the pearl. I can resurrect the dead within, it is my choice, just drop the pearl I have sadly done it before... Now I pray in trembling weakness help me not drop the pearl. Scared one, seek and you will find.

Ron

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Re: New here and scared
radiance wrote:

I am a treasure trove of understanding in horticulture and sustainable farming but the people around me are so busy it appears I will take it all to the grave.

Ron

 

Ron; you write well and you might consider putting all of your aquired knowledge to an even better use by writing a book on the subject.  In the near future your skills will be needed and more greatly appreciated by small communities and individuals.  Who knows?... you might leave a legacy for your own children to benefit from.  Just because you are under appreciated in your own time dowsn't mean that you won't be after you're gone. 

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Re: New here and scared

Thank you Set for such kind words. I will consider your encouragement to write it down. Hey maybe a crash couse style presentation would be best.

Ron

PS how do you get the blue highlight: Radiance wrote with quote? Link?

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Re: New here and scared
radiance wrote:

PS how do you get the blue highlight: Radiance wrote with quote? Link?

 

You're welcome Ron,

To get the "Quote" in blue highlight, merely press the "Quote" button in the lower right corner of any post and take out the portion of another person's post you wish to quote or leave the entire post if desired, then below the /quote line in brackets, write in your comments.  Good luck with the book or "Agricultural Crash Course."

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Re: New here and scared
radiance wrote:

Thank you Set for such kind words. I will consider your encouragement to write it down. Hey maybe a crash couse style presentation would be best.

Ron

Ron, I would greatly appreciate it if you were to start a thread having to do with organic gardening. I have a 1 acre plot & have recently started worm farming ... for the castings & compost tea. I will be happy to chime in from time to time with my experience as it progresses.

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Re: New here and scared

I think I will give it a whirl. Watch for a post. Thanks

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Re: New here and scared
L.Bev wrote:

I just finished watching the CC.  I first started thinking about all the problems in these terms back in about 2002 when I took a course called "Plants and Man" with a professor named Tim Allen (no, not the guy from Home Improvement) at the University of Wisconsin.  He was a botany prof. who studied hierarchy theory and complexity in biological systems.   The message was scary back then, but not as scary as it is now, because the data and experience in the past 6 years have really put crunch time right at our doorstep.

 ...

I'm deeply pessimistic about it, which isn't helped by my inability to do anything about it in the short term.  It's going to be hard for me to sleep tonight.

Spend a little time educating yourself about the other side of the coin. An easy and entertaining way to start is to watch movies like The Secret, Peaceful Warrior, etc. Read books like The Intention Experiment, Loving What Is, etc. Learn how you create your own reality. To put it into practice, learn a technique like Serene Impulse. The negative state you are in has known deterimental implications for  your future health and success. You owe it to yourself to live in a state of joy. Be powerful (and I don't mean make a mood of it, I mean BE it.) If you have to avoid this site to accomplish that, then do so. 

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Re: New here and scared
siennablue wrote:

Ron, I would greatly appreciate it if you were to start a thread having to do with organic gardening.

Me too!

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Re: New here and scared
ds wrote:
siennablue wrote:

Ron, I would greatly appreciate it if you were to start a thread having to do with organic gardening.

Me too!

I think it's great that there are people interested in discussing such topics.  Do you think it would be of value to create a forum area titled, "How to Plan for the Future"?  If there is enough interest in it I can put something out there, let me know.

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Re: New here and scared
admin wrote:
ds wrote:
siennablue wrote:

Ron, I would greatly appreciate it if you were to start a thread having to do with organic gardening.

Me too!

I think it's great that there are people interested in discussing such topics.  Do you think it would be of value to create a forum area titled, "How to Plan for the Future"?  If there is enough interest in it I can put something out there, let me know.

 

I would find the topic interesting.  I think that would be an excellent addition to this site.

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Re: New here and scared
hewittr wrote:

Reminiscent of The Graduate, my advice to you son is to switch to bankruptcy or criminal law.

As usual hewittr, I will disagree with you....

To start with, 'saving the environment' will not be a luxury...  It's extraordinary how in times of effluence people forget that we do NOT live in an economy, we live in the environment.  'Saving the Environment' is IMPERATIVE.  If we finish screwing the environment, we will screw ourselves in the process, so please do not despair about having studied 'the wrong degree', and do not cut'n'run!  We will need lots of lawyers like you...

Then, if ever there was a good argument for it, the $85,000 university debt is a perfect example of why all debts should be canceled....  even if Krogoth thinks the idea is absurd! Wink

My son has just finished his degree in Marine Biology (last Friday), and whilst his debt is lower (~$30,000) I am confident he will never pay it off.

Society NEEDS learned people, they are worth far more than money.   The end of time to value everything in money is nigh.

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Re: New here and scared
hewittr wrote:

That wasn't a serious recommendation. Though a Depression on the magnititude and length of what this is going to be will keep bankruptcy and criminal lawyers busy for a long time, maybe decades.

If truth be told, if I was a lawyer, I would have reason to be shit scared.

See, if we canceled debts we would not need bankruptcy lawyers, and the skills thus released could be used doing something WORTHWHILE!

So much oif the activities going on in the Matrix are simply not worthwhile, a complete waste of time and resources... 

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Re: New here and scared

L.Bev -- Why not do both? There are colleges everywhere and I am sure your credits would transfer. It would also give you a chance to reevaluate your major. Also, check your current school's correspondence and challenge programs. If your school accepts challenges, you could pass some of the courses where you are already proficient by taking the quiz that tests your knowledge. If they offer correspondence courses, which ones apply to your major and do you feel comfortable with a self study/instruction curriculum? It's possible you might be able to save money in correspondence mode.

 

My former father-in-law once said that "A college degree is just like a marriage certificate, it doesn't mean a thing unless you don't have one". Ask yourself what is the future of your major and would something else be a better marriage license? I have a feeling that the future is going to depend upon practical knowledge and application thereof. If fuel gets extremely short are we going to have a revival of horse agriculture? Is there going to be a major move from suburbia to the country? What curriculum would be an advantage in that environment? Is that a real possibility or something in between? At 76 I am starting to wonder if I could move to the country and be able to survive. Like you I have little in savings. I am dependent on my Social Security which I spent 45 years paying into and my state Educators pension which I also paid into. The pension is invested in stocks and SocSec is invested in a ponzi scheme, either of them could evaporate like fairy dust in the coming meltdown, and I cannot get anything out of them that the government does not agree to pay.

 

In a move from suburbia to the country, the little ghost towns that dot the countryside will be revived and the mom and pop stores will come back. Between Raton, NM and Clayton, NM there are half a dozen little ghost towns that went belly up in the great fuel availability era, with limited fuel what are the chances they will come back? Is there a future in looking at the future of the country in a rural setting where we are back to conditions 100 years ago? What kind of businesses will spring up in this environment? I am trying to imagine what this country will look like in the future, a future where the majority of the population may have to go back to the farm, and the little farm will be viable again. I do not believe that the million plus urban areas will be the place to be when there is no longer enough fuel for the big farms and ranches to continue operation as they do now.

 

Just some thoughts...

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Re: New here and scared

Hi Admin, 

I think the additional forums would be great but I would suggest keeping a list of ALL forums, not just new ones, along the side of the home page or even accessible by clicking an "all forums" button. I hate to be critical but I still find this site to be somewhat tough to negotiate and follow. I know a few other sites that are extremely well laid out (much older sites) if you are interested. I did email this info earlier and, if you got it, apologize for my seeming double critique. I am well aware of the expenses associated with designing and maintaining sites so don't take this personally.

 

SG

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Re: New here and scared

LBev, 

I am closer to Ron (Radiance)  in age but my son is your age and I have some sense of  your generation. Take a deep breath and pat yourself on the back for finding your way here, absorb the perspectives, but realize no one here has a genuine crystal ball. Most of us aren't rushing out to buy a few acres and learn animal husbandry! Your liability is having fewer solid assets; your strength is flexibility..you're not ensconced in a lifestyle that you would have difficulty changing. You're already ahead of the masses just thinking about your options and there is a good bet that everything won't hit the fan instantly; those in power have a good deal at stake in maintaining order. 

Good luck and keep posting. You will sift through our chaff and find your own wheat.

 

SG

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Re: New here and scared
capesurvivor wrote:

Hi Admin, 

I think the additional forums would be great but I would suggest keeping a list of ALL forums, not just new ones, along the side of the home page or even accessible by clicking an "all forums" button. I hate to be critical but I still find this site to be somewhat tough to negotiate and follow. I know a few other sites that are extremely well laid out (much older sites) if you are interested. I did email this info earlier and, if you got it, apologize for my seeming double critique. I am well aware of the expenses associated with designing and maintaining sites so don't take this personally.

 

SG

 

Thanks for your comments.  A couple of thoughts ... there is an "all forums" button.  Just click the "Forums" link on the top of any page, and you can see every forum section on the site.  In regards to having all forums on the sidebar, unfortunately we have limited screen real estate.  While the forums are certainly of value, the most important content on the site is Chris' blog posts, Martenson Reports, upcoming events, etc.  We want to make sure everyone is clearly aware of Chris' most recent content.

In regards to feedback, I haven't seen an email with your comments.  Possibly they got misplaced.  I'd appreciate if any site feedback can be written in the Site Feedback and Comments forum.  If you have suggestions of other sites you'd like us to review, place your thoughts in there.  We check this folder frequently and respond often.  Thanks.

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Re: New here and scared

Matrix says: "We will need lots of lawyers like you..."

I'm pretty sure that the US has the highest number of lawyers per capita of any other nation in the world. You might consider moving to Australia. According to Matrix, there are plenty of opportunities there.

 

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Re: New here and scared

Woody -

     I tried to transfer to the University of Wisconsin law school this past Summer.  They turned me down (GPA wasn't high enough).  I only have 3 more semesters left though, and Oregon isn't such a bad place.

 

Capesurvivor -

     Rushing to buy good land and learn how to farm is EXACTLY what I want to be doing right now.  There's a restlessness in me from not being able to wake up and get to work on that.

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capesurvivor
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Re: New here and scared

Ah, well, then good luck and go for it!

 

SG

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Re: New here and scared

 

[Rushing to buy
good land and learn how to farm is EXACTLY what I want to be doing
right now. There's a restlessness in me from not being able to wake up
and get to work on that.]

Oh but you can! Even law students get to do something besides study-----

I suggest you start with the "learning how to farm" bit first. There are many ways to go about it---yes, it's winter but I bet you could find a farm nearby to hook up with for the spring. Start calling around now and offer to volunteer or arrange a work exchange. Find a local gardener/farmer or a CSA who needs a hand. (try www.localharvest.org) Take a look at publications like "The Caretaker Gazette" (www.caretaker.org) Opportunities abound!!

The more you know about hands-on farming, the better-equipped you'll be when it comes time to look for your own land.

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Damnthematrix
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Re: New here and scared

I'd enrol in a Permaculture Design Course myself.....  invaluable knowledge.

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Re: New here and scared

Color me embarrassed; no more site comments until I subscribe and spend more time looking around.

 

SG

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