The most despicable thing I've found out in 9 years.

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John99's picture
John99
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The most despicable thing I've found out in 9 years.

Under the CM category of environment.

In nine years of searching for the truth in what is really happening in our world, this is the most deplorable and sickening reality I have found so far.

Coincidentally (and am beginning to believe there are no coincidences) this information came from two different sources on the same day. My wife and I watched a new documentary, made in Germany and translated into English called, 'War Promises'. It is excellent and highly recommended (

). It is 1:15 minutes long.

On the same day we got an email from an old friend,  who has been actively searching for years as well. He said, 'you've got to see this documentary, 'Beyond Treason', it is unbelievable! - and it truly is.

Very few of us like looking at war. We'd rather avoid knowing about it, even though our tax dollars support it (each Canadian is going $1,000 deeper in debt each and every year with military spending).

This documentary, 'Beyond Treason' made by US veterans, is about something that has been happening in the theaters of war for over 10 years and continues to happen right now.

We have all heard about toxic radioactive nuclear waste and the problems of what to do with it, but few of us know that our military has found a use for it. Deceptively called, 'Depleted Uranium Weapons', they are killing not only our so called, 'enemies', they are killing and deforming our own soldiers and civilians around the planet. They are poisoning rivers, streams and fields and the air that circulates around the planet. Thousands of Iraqi and Afghan children are being born with horrible birth defects. Nano radioactive particles are being carried around the globe in the very air that we all breath. We are poisoning the whole globe with radioactive waste that kills and deforms every living thing on earth.

188 member countries of the United Nations have banned these weapons, but that ban was vetoed by the US, France, Britain, and Israel.

In Iraq, and currently being used in Afghanistan where Canadian soldiers are stationed, over 4,000 tones of Depleted Uranium Weapons have been used to date. One small bullet the size of a ruler, upon impact, releases billions of nano particles of toxic radioactive uranium that never dissolves, never breaks down, never stops killing and deforming life.

Please make time for this documentary and pass it onward. When enough people are aware of this, we can say no.

Part 1 of 9: (Parts 3-6 specifically on D.U. weapons) Each part is about 10 minutes long.

MarkM's picture
MarkM
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Re: The most despicable thing I've found out in 9 years.

I have yet to hear an argument that DU is a non-issue and is really not as much of a problem as I fear.

Can anyone here argue the side of "DU is not a concern"?

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nickbert
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Re: The most despicable thing I've found out in 9 years.

DU is only mildly radioactive, less so than natural uranium, and the radiation danger from DU is normally quite low.  Most of the radiation involved are alpha and beta particles, and since there's very little gamma radiation and the alpha and beta particles it emits in higher numbers are easily blocked, the overall hazard in its solid state is not high.  At least if you aren't carrying it around in your pocket on a regular basis.

The one circumstance where it can be a very significant hazard is if it finds its way into the body through inhalation or ingestion or pieces lodged in the body.  Not only would the alpha and beta particles be able to damage the body more extensively with no air or other substance to act as a barrier, but the DU also has a very long half-life and would continue to do damage as long as the dust particles or fragments remained in the body.  And unfortunately its quite toxic too.  I honestly don't know to what degree DU penetrators in ammunition vaporize into dust on impact, but I expect it is significant since that DU vaporization is favored for creating desired incendiary or explosive effects with armored vehicles.  I would expect the dust particles to be a large hazard to those fighting or living in the immediate area, but probably not so much a large hazard to the wider environment and plant/animal life in general.  As stated before any larger solid pieces are a low impact hazard, and most DU dust particles should largely disperse over time throughout the larger area down to non-hazardous concentrations.  DU used in tank armor is probably less hazardous, as one would think the designers would design it so it's more stable and less prone to vaporization (the whole idea in the first place being to protect the crew).  But disposal of damaged armor plates could get to be a big mess.

So am I ok with using DU?  Well I could accept the use of DU in armor provided proper design and disposal considerations are made.  But with penetrator rounds I'd probably have to say no, not even if the environmental effects are limited to the immediate area like I'm guessing.  Even in applications where civilian exposure is nil and environmental damage very limited (underground bunker-busters?) I'd still feel very uncomfortable about it.

- Nickbert

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Swampmama3
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Re: The most despicable thing I've found out in 9 years.

Ugh,

One more bit of horror.  It's like we're sitting around thinking of ways we can screw things up worse and faster, cause we're just not awful enough yet.  What's the goal here, total hell on earth?  The only way to stop this kind of thing is a total change of heart in those who make decisions for us.  Which means people would have to pull their head out of the football game and the shopping mall long enough to actually learn, care and speak up.   What are the chances?

Again, ugh.

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Dogs_In_A_Pile
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Re: The most despicable thing I've found out in 9 years.
MarkM wrote:

I have yet to hear an argument that DU is a non-issue and is really not as much of a problem as I fear.

Can anyone here argue the side of "DU is not a concern"?

MarkM -

Nickbert hit the real issue.  It's not the radiation that is the biggest threat - it's the toxicity. Ingested UO2 will kill you long before the radiation manifests itself physiologically.  The battlefield issue is that U is relatively soft and when it hit its target part of it would atomize and create DU dust.  That gets stirred up and ingested and that's when you start having toxicity issues.  As nickbert alluded to, alpha particles are easily shielded by dead skin and are not much of an external threat from a radioactive contamination and biological damage standpoint.  Unless of course you are talking about such huge source levels - but then you have other problems.

But once you get alpha emitting contamination inside your body, that's when severe living cell damage occurs.  The 4He2 molecule is ginormous and tears apart whatever it hits - which isn't an issue in dead skin.  But if the ingested stuff is DU dust, it will poison you first.

Which is likely why polonium was used to poison Alexander Litvinenko.  I read one report where the estimated amount he was dosed with was 10 micrograms, which was 200 times more than needed (and just barely detectable).  50 nanograms of Po210 is lethal.  And since Po210 has relatively low energy alpha emission as it's primary decay mechanism and a very short half-life of 140ish days, unless there was a reason to suspect Po poisoning from the start, the authorities probably wouldn't have even looked for it until it was too late. 

I'm not sure what the lethal dose is for DU, but I'm pretty sure there is a lot more than 50 nanograms laying around just waiting to get dusted up into the air.

So yeah, DU is an issue.  Just not a radioactive issue - if that makes it any better.

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Mike Pilat
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Re: The most despicable thing I've found out in 9 years.

Question for the nuke engineer (Dogs):

Is it the alpha particles themselves that are what make these substances poisonous when they are ingested or are they poisonous in other ways? Is Polonium so much more poisonous simply because the half life is much shorter than Uranium and a given amount will emit far more alpha particles over a given time period?

The images of Litvinenko were ghastly to say the least and I was a little surprised at how quickly (~3-4 weeks) his body degraded. Even if excessive Uranium exposure is far less acute an issue than Polonium, it's clear that radiation isn't something to mess with.

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Dogs_In_A_Pile
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Re: The most despicable thing I've found out in 9 years.
Mike Pilat wrote:

Question for the nuke engineer (Dogs):

Is it the alpha particles themselves that are what make these substances poisonous when they are ingested or are they poisonous in other ways? Is Polonium so much more poisonous simply because the half life is much shorter than Uranium and a given amount will emit far more alpha particles over a given time period?

The images of Litvinenko were ghastly to say the least and I was a little surprised at how quickly (~3-4 weeks) his body degraded. Even if excessive Uranium exposure is far less acute an issue than Polonium, it's clear that radiation isn't something to mess with.

Yes and sort of.  It's the "toxicity" of alpha particle damage.  Damaged cells can't function as they were intended and organs begin shutting down.  If the water in a cell is ionized, the cell won't function properly so whatever organ the cell was supposed to work in also stops functioning once a sufficient dose has been accumulated.

Polonium is particularly nasty beast.  It is a very rapid alpha decay and the damage is accumulated quickly - long before symptoms show up.  The alpha energy levels are very low, they don't travel very far and are as such, very hard to detect.  Alpha spectroscopy just isn't a commonly prescribed diagnostic - even under ObamaCare.

You also have the dynamic of compounded half lives.  Once polonium is orally ingested it rapidly spreads all throughout the body where it starts working.  In addition to normal radioactive isotopic decay, It is excreted from the body and the compounded half life is now about 30-40 days.  After 5 half lives have passed, a radioactive isotope is statistically zero, so you are looking at a few months to find the stuff in someone who has been poisoned.  In most cases the damage is accumulated quickly and "lethal dose" effects have occurred well before any symptoms show up. 

Litvinenko's case was stunning.  He was basically dead two hours after ingesting the Po210 dose he got.  His symptoms showed up the day he was poisoned indicating he received a huge dose, many times past the lethal levels.  Based on post mortem reconstruction (coupled with blind luck) his GI system was fried within 2 hours of eating the poisoned meal.  He essentially received 4 times the untreated lethality threshold dose.  At that level, he was well past saving - short of unprecedented intervention.  Even then, the hematopoietic and GI system injuries he got from the initial dosing combined to make a medically insurmountable situation. 

You are right, radiation isn't something to mess with - which is why you will never see Mr. Fission (or Fusion) generators for public consumption or use.  People who can't even take proper care of a goldfish or hamster have no business operating a home nuclear power plant - much less having children.

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Mike Pilat
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Re: The most despicable thing I've found out in 9 years.

haha yes, I agree. I can only imagine what the world would be like if there were backyard Uranium fueled "generators" that people could use when the grid went down...or just continuously for that matter.

Looking back at Litvinenko's case, I really can't think of a more cutting way for a cloak and dagger spy hit to be carried out. Polonium takes long enough to kill you that you feel a lot of pain. But it is fast and visually schocking enough to serve as a warning to anyone else not to mess with the perps. And of course 50 nanograms of anything is pretty hard to detect unless you specifically look for it at all times...Although Po poisoning clearly suggests a government or large group as a backing entity, it's not the kind of thing that's going to leave a lot of fingerprints or other evidence behind.

This might be going off on a tangent, but I don't know if I've ever fully resolved Litvinenko's case.

1) What exactly was he doing at that time that made Vlad want to take him out? I know he was speaking out against Russian politics and he was a former insider, but did Putin really believe that this man alone had enough to say that he could transform public opinions on a broad basis??

2) Why did they choose to take him out with Po? For Russia there would be some advantages as I mentioned above, but the fact that Polonium was used to kill him makes it absolutely clear that this was a nation that took him out. There's no room for plausible deniability. A shooting incident theoretically could be due to a scuffle he got in with someone random. So it is clear that Russia is desiring to send a message not to mess with them. Scary.

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straight
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If you are a Hammer, like the US, you see the world as nails.

The Australian connection.

In the movie 'blow'n in the wind'  http://www.abc.net.au/atthemovies/txt/s1489013.htm looks at the issues you have discussed .  I cant remember the percentage of the US nuclear waste that is distributed around the world via war heads, but it astounded me at the time.

'Blow'n in the wind' documents Australias interest in DU.  Australia has apparantly fired DU rounds at sea in joint exercises, contrary to Australian law.   It is also known to some that the US practice using their uranium rounds on Australian soil, at Shoalhaven Bay, in Nth Queensland.  This area is one of the most unspoilt areas of australia... yes they do bomb it with live rounds.... yes they do trample it during exercises... but at least they dont clear fell it to graze cattle.

Not many people know but Australia is an exporter of arms, exporting over $500 million worth in '03-'04 alone.  http://www.mapw.org.au/australian-issues/australias-arms-industry

When the US and Australia signed the deal making Shoalhaven part of the practice ground of the US military they took  the nuclear environmental monitoring off the area.

America is out of control and needs to be stopped.... It seems that Australia [not counting Barnaby Joyce] is its lap dog, trailing on its heals.

Perhaps being indignant at anything that happens in a war zone is unfounded; after all it is war, and maybe there need be no other excuse.  War IS hell, and perhaps you would be happy to use them if it was your neck on the line.  

The way I see it, War itself is the problem.   The super agressive countries, like the US, need to be reigned in, but who the hell is going to do it... you guys spend more borrowed money on war than the rest of the world put together. Like most things in the US at the moment, that is MAD. 

If you are a Hammer, like the US, you tend to see the world as nails.

Straight, Brisbane.

 

 

 

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John99
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Re: The most despicable thing I've found out in 9 years.

I see the Pentegon has order the 'bunker buster' bomb - weighing over 15 tones. Can anybody tell me if this is a D.U. weapon?

http://www.defencetalk.com/us-bunker-buster-bomb-22499/

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Dogs_In_A_Pile
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Re: The most despicable thing I've found out in 9 years.
John99 wrote:

I see the Pentegon has order the 'bunker buster' bomb - weighing over 15 tones. Can anybody tell me if this is a D.U. weapon?

It is not DU. 

 

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