Leaving the USA?

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catastrophist's picture
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Leaving the USA?

I’m 33 and an American. I’ve perceived the hypocrisies of America for most of my adult life and know that it is an empire on the brink of collapse.

I have little money saved, mainly because I’ve deemed it morally irresponsible to participate in the global industrial economy, which is killing the planet at staggering rates.

That said, I have a superb liberal-arts education and a sound mathematical education. I want to move abroad, but won’t the economic chaos that presages the death knell to the US spread rapidly to other Western countries, all of which are closely tied to the US economically?

If anyone has insight, please let me know. I am actively looking for a way to live peacefully and frugally abroad. Buying property is probably not an option. If your suggestion is to teach English, please say why you think the country you recommend won’t be pulled into the same abyss into which the US is forging headlong.

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Hi Catastrophist. Yes, the

Hi Catastrophist. Yes, the chaos isn't going to be confined to the U.S. It will vary region by region.  If I were young I would try to remain as unencumbered with responsibility as possible. I wouldn't rent, I'd house or pet sit for people who take long vacations, months or more. Most  house sitters have use of a vehicle, already insured, gratis.  From that semi-nomadic base I would try to find part time cash jobs in the area. Gardening, cleaning, etc...are a couple of examples.  I'd want to be as footloose and fancy free as possible. This kind of lifestyle used to be considered kind of frivolous, something a student might do while preparing for "real life". But things have changed and now a nomadic lifestyle should be considered a very wise survival strategy. It reduces expenses to a bare minimum and may even allow one to save a significant amount of money. 

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Go West, Young Man. To Australia

Special report: Australia's Big Dig For Foreign Workers
"Lievaux [a geologist] may earn about $60,000 a year after tax and be chauffeured to work in a jet, but she is not particularly well paid by the standards of Karratha, an Aboriginal word meaning "good country, and other remote boom towns... A mine supervisor can earn in excess of $200,000, more than the head of the Federal Reserve. A truck-driver's salary easily runs into six figures. A construction worker can make over $150,000, more than a doctor or lawyer."
http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/06/14/us-australia-labour-idUSTRE75D...

Seriously, that is what I would tell a young man today. Although I would suggest they make sure they have strong contacts overseas to help watch out for their interests from unscrupulous people.

Poet

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Go West, Young Man. To Australia
Poet wrote:

Special report: Australia's Big Dig For Foreign Workers
"Lievaux [a geologist] may earn about $60,000 a year after tax and be chauffeured to work in a jet, but she is not particularly well paid by the standards of Karratha, an Aboriginal word meaning "good country, and other remote boom towns... A mine supervisor can earn in excess of $200,000, more than the head of the Federal Reserve. A truck-driver's salary easily runs into six figures. A construction worker can make over $150,000, more than a doctor or lawyer."

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/06/14/us-australia-labour-idUSTRE75D...

I'm Australian and I live in Australia.  If I was an American, no way would I stay there.  But that's just me (or maybe not!)

Having said that, you must bear in mind that even though we have fared quite well through the GFC, we will in no way be immune to the collapse looming on the horizon.  Unemployment has been steady ~5%, but I think it will inevitably rise, and the commodities boom will be short lived especially if China hits the fan.  We are currently in recession, some say because of all the flooding and cyclones we have experienced over the past 6 months on the E Coast....  we'll see.

Also bear in mind Australia will almost certainly be totally out of oil by 2020, and there is no way we can build a nat gas infrastructure before then (let alone before 2015 when real oil shortages will be in full swing).

We seriously considered moving to NZ, but frankly the earthquakes worry me and my wife.  IF we are able to do it before TSHTF, we're heading for Tasmania for the same reasons we considered NZ:  cooler, and as far away from the madding crowd one can get apart from Tahiti (which is overpopulated like hell and unsustainable).  it's also easier for us to stay in Australia, but if I were you, I'd consider NZ anyway.

Mike

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New Zealand...

We sailed to New Zealand 16 years ago from the US and never left.  We've raised three kids here and love it.  We live north of Auckland which is pretty well out of the earthquake zone and is semi-tropical (think orange, lemon, mandarin trees and bananas... a treat for me who grew up in northern Vermont!  We get plenty of rain for the farm and collect for drinking water, require no furnace in the house and have plenty of sunshine for solar hot water and electric systems.

New Zealand is spending beyond its means as well and I am somewhat concerned about being reasonbly close to New Zealands largest city but other than that I can't think of a better place to be.  We are small, with a relatively low population, geographicaly remote, we produce and export far more food than we consume (including lamb and beef that are grass fed meaning no grain, feedlots, prophylacitc antibiotics or growth hormones) and last month 79% of New Zealand's electricity was generated renewably (mostly hydro).  New Zealand has fantastic socialized health care and an intelligent immigration policy.

It's going to be interesting times for the whole world and I am not sure how New Zealand will fare being at the back of a long line competing for dwindling world oil.  We don't have the mineral and commodity wealth that Australia has but otherwise structurally this country has a lot going for it.

You should get on an airplane and see some of Australia and New Zealand for yourself.  Nothing like visiting to see for yourself if it feels right.

Good luck!

Chip

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NZSailor wrote: We sailed to
NZSailor wrote:

We sailed to New Zealand 16 years ago from the US and never left.  We've raised three kids here and love it.  We live north of Auckland which is pretty well out of the earthquake zone

Christchurch was supposed to be too.....!

Mike

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there's no running away
catastrophist wrote:

I’m 33 and an American. I’ve perceived the hypocrisies of America for most of my adult life and know that it is an empire on the brink of collapse.

I have little money saved, mainly because I’ve deemed it morally irresponsible to participate in the global industrial economy, which is killing the planet at staggering rates.

That said, I have a superb liberal-arts education and a sound mathematical education. I want to move abroad, but won’t the economic chaos that presages the death knell to the US spread rapidly to other Western countries, all of which are closely tied to the US economically?

If anyone has insight, please let me know. I am actively looking for a way to live peacefully and frugally abroad. Buying property is probably not an option. If your suggestion is to teach English, please say why you think the country you recommend won’t be pulled into the same abyss into which the US is forging headlong.

catastrophist,

Every other country has the same hypocrisies, most of them significantly worse than the U.S.  Here's a place in the US where you can buy land cheap and not have to worry about overcrowding and strife.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slope_County,_North_Dakota

Scratch Australia.  With the most important resource being the rarest (i.e. fresh water) and a population base with the genetics of penal colony prisoners, when the pressure in on there, it will get really, really bad.  There's no overcoming bad DNA (sorry, DTM, couldn't help it).;-)

New Zealand has always sounded attractive to me but if they're loaded with food and water resources, and everyone else is running out, the someone else with more firepower will just take it by force if they need it.  That scenario has repeated itself endlessly throughout world history.

I'd pick someplace like Turkey.  With their strategic geographical location between the east and the west, their growing economy, the global growth of the Islamic empire with Turkey as the most organized power within that empire, and the likelihood that Turkey will likely be a world power within 50 years based on Stratfor's predictions, it sounds like they're on an upward trajectory.  Besides the people are friendly and the scenery is lovely.

Those tongue-in-cheek and not-so-tongue-in-cheek statements being made, there will be no safe refuge.  The problems we face are global, not American, and will infest every nook and cranny of the world.

P.S.  I think it's morally irresponsible to support the central banking system that supports the global industrial economy.  I'd therefore recommend disposing of all your FRNs.  If you send them to me, I'll be glad to take care of their disposal in a totally green manner.;-)

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Catastrophist-What you may

Catastrophist-

What you may want to do is carefully examine ALL of your reasons for wanting to leave and what specifically you are looking for in a place to live.  Does it stem from a desire to take advantage of opportunities that are not (or may soon not be) as available in America, or concern over the negative domestic effects of America's decline, or just the desire to find a quiet place to live a slow-paced peaceful life, or some combination of the three?  You may just find what you're really looking for in some corner of the US... just because the American economic empire is collapsing doesn't necessarily mean that it won't be worth living there anymore. 

I'm actually just a few years older than you, and my family is transitioning to where we'll be spending a great deal of time overseas.  Our reasons for doing so are primarily about pursuing long-term opportunities and secondarily about diversifying our lives and keeping our options open, so for us it's more like spending more time in a second home than 'leaving'.  I have to be blunt though... I'm not certain we'd be doing this if we didn't already have strong ties to the other country in question and speak the language (well my wife at least... I've learned some but am not fluent yet).  We also spent three years paying off remaining student loan debt, selling assets, and saving as much as possible so we could have the freedom to pursue a long term goal without starving for income in the short term.  Again, with a family I'm not sure we'd be taking this chance without such savings to mitigate various risks.

I agree with agitating prop; try to keep as much flexibility and freedom of movement in your life as possible.  That's probably the smartest thing me and my family has done, and without that we wouldn't have our current overseas opportunities open to us.  It has occurred to me more than once that me and my wife are lucky in where we are in life at the opening of this crisis; we are young enough to where we still have flexibility and mobility in our lives, but old enough to where we have some skills, knowledge, and a few material assets to take advantage of opportunities.  From the sounds of things you have some knowledge under your belt and probably don't have any debt either, so perhaps you are at a good point in life to relocate if that's what you find you really want to do.  Teaching english might be a good thing as a starting point and as a way to scout a country, but once you find the right place don't waste any time finding a more permanent occupation or opportunity.  As economic fortunes in the US and other Western countries decline there will probably be no shortage of people looking for opportunities elsewhere, and you want to get started on establishing/qualifying for residency status before the nation(s) in question start getting very picky with who they let stay.  As for what are the countries likely to be less affected by the coming changes (like many here I don't thing anyplace will be largely unaffected) I think debt-loads of both the country and citizens of said country will be one important determining factor.

- Nickbert

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overcoming bad DNA
ao wrote:

There's no overcoming bad DNA (sorry, DTM, couldn't help it).;-)

No probs......  I wasn't born here!

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Immigration and Oz
Damnthematrix wrote:
Poet wrote:

Special report: Australia's Big Dig For Foreign Workers
"Lievaux [a geologist] may earn about $60,000 a year after tax and be chauffeured to work in a jet, but she is not particularly well paid by the standards of Karratha, an Aboriginal word meaning "good country, and other remote boom towns... A mine supervisor can earn in excess of $200,000, more than the head of the Federal Reserve. A truck-driver's salary easily runs into six figures. A construction worker can make over $150,000, more than a doctor or lawyer."

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/06/14/us-australia-labour-idUSTRE75D...

I'm Australian and I live in Australia.  If I was an American, no way would I stay there.  But that's just me (or maybe not!)

Having said that, you must bear in mind that even though we have fared quite well through the GFC, we will in no way be immune to the collapse looming on the horizon.  Unemployment has been steady ~5%, but I think it will inevitably rise, and the commodities boom will be short lived especially if China hits the fan.  We are currently in recession, some say because of all the flooding and cyclones we have experienced over the past 6 months on the E Coast....  we'll see.

Also bear in mind Australia will almost certainly be totally out of oil by 2020, and there is no way we can build a nat gas infrastructure before then (let alone before 2015 when real oil shortages will be in full swing).

We seriously considered moving to NZ, but frankly the earthquakes worry me and my wife.  IF we are able to do it before TSHTF, we're heading for Tasmania for the same reasons we considered NZ:  cooler, and as far away from the madding crowd one can get apart from Tahiti (which is overpopulated like hell and unsustainable).  it's also easier for us to stay in Australia, but if I were you, I'd consider NZ anyway.

Mike

Mike  -

One huge plus for Oz.......You guys do have Clark and Dawes.  There's something to be said for a comedy duo that portrays incompetent politicians, here in the US, our politicians are professional incompetents.

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Immigration and Oz
Dogs_In_A_Pile wrote:

One huge plus for Oz.......You guys do have Clark and Dawes.  There's something to be said for a comedy duo that portrays incompetent politicians, here in the US, our politicians are professional incompetents.

Indeed....  those two are brilliant.  I always look forward to their appearance on Thursday night on the ABC (which is not how illiterate Australians spell TV!)

Mike

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nickbert wrote: I'm actually
nickbert wrote:

I'm actually just a few years older than you, and my family is transitioning to where we'll be spending a great deal of time overseas.  Our reasons for doing so are primarily about pursuing long-term opportunities and secondarily about diversifying our lives and keeping our options open, so for us it's more like spending more time in a second home than 'leaving'.

This seems like a great option for many families.  Give the children invaluable immersion in a foreign culture, be established in a "bug out country", take advantage of global economy opportunities.  

The main reasons we are not doing this all revolve around air travel.  Expensive now for a family, prohibitively expensive in the future due to energy costs?  TSA gropings/radiation scans. Future redtape with international travel as U.S. unrest increases ?

How did you settle with yourself on these current and potential travel issues ?

 

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Moving abroad, or not?

We have had these discussions from time to time on this site, but this one is particularly timely for me. I've been largely absent from this site recently, as we've been working hard in making some necessary transitions in the past few months. After three years on-off the market, we finally sold our house, taking a bit of a hit, but doing better than I had feared. We are in the process of moving into a rented house (one that also has had difficultly selling). I also closed my private practice a month ago, sold off most of my equipment, and accepted an employed position at my current hospital, doing the same things I used to be doing, but without as many administrative burdens.

All of the above was done with the intent of transitioning to something new, but what exactly that will be remains unclear. We have considered moving abroad (British Columbia, Australia, New Zealand, Costa Rica, Chile, and others have all been on the list), and that remains an option. At the same time, recognizing family ties, worries about return travel, etc., we are also considering staying in the U.S., but possibly relocating to another state. It is understandable to be pessimistic regarding the U.S., but it is also important to realize some of its strengths. Although the U.S. has frequently failed to live up to its own ideals, particularly in the past century, it does have well established foundations with regard to personal freedom, rule of law, privacy rights, etc. And, politically, the continued rise of independent voters, and particularly libertarian viewpoints, gives me some hope for the future of the U.S. post-crash.

The following links may be of some value to those considering relocating, either abroad or within the U.S.:

http://www.heritage.org/index/

http://mercatus.org/freedom-50-states-2011

At this very moment, I suspect it is likely that we will stay in the U.S., but perhaps move to a slightly warmer climate, and to an area with a relatively low cost of living. I don't care too much whether I continue to practice surgery, as our healthcare system is woefully inadequate and unsustainable, and poised to implode. I'd like to invest in some good land, live simply but more fully, and have a good view as the world evolves. Anyone looking for a neighbor and investor?

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no where to run

If you've really got a fire in your belly, and you'd better to see it through, check out simon black at sovereign man.  This is just my opionion, but I don't think anyplace worth living will be very accepting of those new to the area when the SHTF. 

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moving

Although you would certainly be welcome in my neighborhood, I don't think western NY qualifies as warmer.  If I were in your shoes, I would be thinking Pacific Northwest, maybe Olympic Peninsula or one of the islands in Puget Sound or nearby inland.  Maybe Skagit Valley.  There is a reason so many of the successful permaculture experiments are located there, anything you plant explodes out of the ground.  Winters are negligible, just rainy, unless you go to higher elevations.  Summers are mild.  If I weren't more or less permanently planted here, that's where I would be looking.  Although, my guess is anything within the Seattle influence will be expensive.

Doug

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Doug wrote: Although you
Doug wrote:

Although you would certainly be welcome in my neighborhood, I don't think western NY qualifies as warmer.  If I were in your shoes, I would be thinking Pacific Northwest, maybe Olympic Peninsula or one of the islands in Puget Sound or nearby inland.  Maybe Skagit Valley.  There is a reason so many of the successful permaculture experiments are located there, anything you plant explodes out of the ground.  Winters are negligible, just rainy, unless you go to higher elevations.  Summers are mild.  If I weren't more or less permanently planted here, that's where I would be looking.  Although, my guess is anything within the Seattle influence will be expensive.

Doug

Thanks for the offer, Doug! While I do like western NY, and have friends in Buffalo, I don't think that meets my warmer climate needs. Washington is appealing, but the cost of living is generally quite high, and my wife wouldn't like the rain. Oregon is more attractive, and generally less expensive, but still rainy along the western half. Idaho is appealing, and my sister lives in Boise. Colorado is also appealing, and we used to live in Durango. Kansas (my home state) and Missouri offer slightly warmer winters, and low cost of living. The southeastern states are also very appealing.

I've been thinking that access to Amtrak might be desirable, recognizing that Amtrak is in dire financial condition. Still, rail travel, for people as well as freight, would seem to be a more important mode of transportation in the future, right?

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ccpetersmd wrote: At this
ccpetersmd wrote:

At this very moment, I suspect it is likely that we will stay in the U.S., but perhaps move to a slightly warmer climate, and to an area with a relatively low cost of living. I don't care too much whether I continue to practice surgery, as our healthcare system is woefully inadequate and unsustainable, and poised to implode. I'd like to invest in some good land, live simply but more fully, and have a good view as the world evolves. Anyone looking for a neighbor and investor?

Doc -

Will that microbus make it up and over the Shenandoahs?  3200 feet MSL keeps the summers mild and only knocks off a couple of weeks of the growing season.  Eastern side of the Blue Ridge puts you in a bit of a snow shade.  Land is cheap and plentiful and I know of 5-8 other families thinking very seriously about doing the same thing.

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Wow

I had no idea what you were up to Doc. That's a pretty incredible set of changes you have gone thru. I'm hoping your family is adjusting well. What an adventure, huh?

Well, you mentioned MO, so I gotta put my plug in. $1000 - $1500 per acre, great aquifers, millions of acres of state and federal forests, very low property tax (I paid $224 last year on 86 acres with multiple structures) and good conservative folks.

The bad parts are there is less employment (not an issue for you, but it is for your neighbors), overall lower quality of soil until you work it up, and it is HOT in the summer. But, the winter is certainly more mild. Sometimes I wished I went further North!

After you get settled in to the new place, if you are looking for some ideas, why not drive down for a weekend? You have my info if you want to drop by and see Sothern MO, and Tennessee is close too, that's a pretty nice state with no income tax.

Best to the family,

Rog

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PNW

Hey Doc,

If you're looking in the Oregon area, or want to come out for a visit - let me know.
I was born and raised in the PNW, and I can give you the low down on anything in the Puget Sound area, from Snoqualmie to Hood River, to include the surrounding metroplexes. Doug is largely right, but the "anything you plant..." thing works two ways - the same holds true for stuff you don't plant. There is also a long rainy season that increases in duration and intensity the further North you go. 
Oregon is where I'd look, for a number of reasons. Western Idaho (St. Maries area) is also very tempting.

The rail lines parallel the Columbia River on both sides too, terminating in Portland as well as turning north and south to LA and Seattle. Here's a couple pictures from "home":

 

If you do decide you like that area, I'll be back stateside with some time and money on the same sort of scouting mission, if you're interested in getting together.
I'll be buying in one of the PNW States (WA/OR/ID) within the next 12 months, so if nothing else, come on out and have a look.

Hope all's well for you!

Aaron 

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The Martensonville Colony

Hey Doc,

What happened to your big island plans? Yeah, I was thinking that the stink-eye could get dangerous in a crisis too. 

How about south Tejas? The winters are awesome here, but the summers are another story (I had to laugh at Ready saying that MO summers are hot). We typically get 52 inches of rain here a year but this year we have only had 2 inches, most of that coming yesterday. You can pretty much grow anything here in zone 9b and the growing season is year-round, though the gumbo soil requires raised beds for most crops. 

On second thought, forget south Texas too. You would have to live on a costal island to make it through the summers without AC. 

How about we all get together and start a colony somewhere. We can call it Martensonville. I'll can be in charge of printing and distributing the colony's  currency, no problem.

Best...Jeff

 

 

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Martensonville?

Catastrophist, I apologize for derailing your thread! I hope you are at least benefiting from all the feedback, as I know I am.

As we have been considering our next move, I of course thought first of the CM community. Rick, Roger, Aaron and Jeff, you all crossed my mind, as did several others. A community would be great, but couldn't we come up with a better name, Jeff? Sovereign Town? Libertyville? Organic City? Galt's Gulch?

Rick, I have been thinking about your area. Would you send me a PM, or a message via FB, to let me know more precisely where you live? All options are on the table for us right now, and I'd love to meet you and Cat! We'd be closer for the next FloydFest, too!

Roger, yes, its been a busy year. After finishing my campaign in November, I partially withdrew from the internet, excepting Facebook postings. My wife and kids suffered somewhat by my absence into the virtual and campaign worlds, and I needed to reconnect. I tired of being an employer, making money to support government policies with which I did not agree, and decided to close my practice shortly after the new year. It took several months to complete that process, and then we managed to finally sell our home. So, we are now nearly as liquid as we can be, and looking where to invest. Missouri remains high on my list, with Hermann looking particularly attractive. We should try to get together after the summer winds down!

Aaron, I assume you're still abroad? Keeping safe, I hope! Oregon and Idaho remain very high on the list, too. Coeur d'Alene looks very nice! The rain in Oregon might be a problem for Julie, however.

Jeff, the Hill Country of Texas looks interesting, but it seems like it may be overpopulated and overextended. Thoughts? Too hot summers are nearly as annoying to me as too cold winters are for my wife. Yes, the Big Island remains a dream, and home prices there have dropped markedly in the past couple of years, but the overall cost of living, and cost of return trips (even availability?) remain a concern.

I would love to join up with anyone in a good joint venture. I have little in the way of skills beyond medicine, but a lot of interest, and a fair amount of capital to invest in the right venture in a good locale. Martensonville? Well, it's growing on me...

Ready's picture
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Hermann MO

That is between my house and farm. Some of the prettiest land in MO. If you like wine country, you could do much worse!

Good luck no matter what you decide. And congrats on loosing so you could focus on the family. Wink

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We've grappled with those concerns too...
patrickhenry wrote:
nickbert wrote:

I'm actually just a few years older than you, and my family is transitioning to where we'll be spending a great deal of time overseas.  Our reasons for doing so are primarily about pursuing long-term opportunities and secondarily about diversifying our lives and keeping our options open, so for us it's more like spending more time in a second home than 'leaving'.

This seems like a great option for many families.  Give the children invaluable immersion in a foreign culture, be established in a "bug out country", take advantage of global economy opportunities.  

The main reasons we are not doing this all revolve around air travel.  Expensive now for a family, prohibitively expensive in the future due to energy costs?  TSA gropings/radiation scans. Future redtape with international travel as U.S. unrest increases ?

How did you settle with yourself on these current and potential travel issues ?

We've grappled with those concerns too since we are not rich either.  Simply put, we see these as difficulties that can be managed with some sacrifice rather than insurmountable obstacles. 

Regarding the BS with the TSA, there's not much I can do but deal with it as it comes.... I haven't had the pleasure of the body scanners or gropings yet, but if it comes I'll simply refuse the scanner and be as big a pain in the ass during the grope-down as possible without getting arrested.  And odds are I'll probably be dealing with this BS less often than if we were staying in the US.  

As for air travel costs, I also expect they will increase substantially.  With that in mind we are budgeting under the assumption that airfares will be double what they are now, and planning to do no more than one round trip flight per year.  And if prices increase even more we will simply have to fly perhaps every other year, or find other, slower ways to travel.  Amusingly enough we found a repositioning cruise going from Anchorage AK to Beijing that wouldn't be much more than one-way tickets for all three of us, and train tickets from Beijing to Mongolia's capital city aren't that expensive.  We may do that next year just for the hell of it!

And regarding future red-tape with international travel, I think we'll be as prepared as anyone can be.  My wife and son already possess citizenship in Mongolia (our son being a dual citizen), and I will apply for residency status within the next year.  My wife is a US permanent resident who will apply for US citizenship early next year, the main reason being that permanent residents have to be careful about how much time they spend outside the US whereas citizens do not.  At the very least this should allow us to travel to/from our home countries without too much hassle.

I see the greater probability in travel being more costly and inconvenient rather than impossible, but I realize that there is a small but not insignificant possibility that at some point travel costs, travel restrictions, or Peak Oil may cut off our access to travel back and forth and keep us outside the US for the forseeable future.  As much as we'd miss the US (or at least our part of it), that is something we are prepared to accept.  We can make our home anywhere.

- Nickbert

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New England?

Doc, and others,

Give New England some consideration. Southern New England, where I am, can't be that much colder in the winter than Iowa(the lowest temp. was -3F this winter). Look at rural Litchfield County. Lots of NY'ers have weekend homes up here to get away from the hustle and bustle as it is very quiet.  But there are farms dating back to the 1700 and 1800's that are still operating. And there is plenty of water. If it wasn't for my family, I'd consider moving to Vermont. Sparsely populated state, plenty of forests and it seems as if everyone burns firewood. Although it's a lot colder in VT than here. Lots of small towns and every town seems to have their own farm or farms. Chris M. is nearby in Mass. and  Kunstler is in Saratoga, NY, I believe.

A big attraction for me is the lack of natural disasters in the Northeast. The rare destructive tornado is really it. Flooding along rivers can always be a problem, but that goes for anywhere. There are no earthquakes to speak of. We're overdue for a hurricane, but live far enough inland, and it's just a severe windstorm. Snow melts, big deal.

LG's picture
LG
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Not Abroad

Sir,

Attached is a site that might help with your decision. If you are considering Missouri, then consider western Arkansas and eastern Oklahoma. We relocated to SE OK three years back because of what is coming. Yes, it is hot, but the winters are very manageable. Something to ponder, with a slowed paced community you get a slower community. If this is not a problem, then life is wonderful. No opera or off-broadway, but life is good, the people are genuine.

LG

http://portal.kiplinger.com/tools/retiree_map/

 

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ccpetersmd
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Joe, we gave New Hampshire a

Joe, we gave New Hampshire a serious look, particularly because of the Free State Project. I even acquired a New Hampshire medical license and did two "temp jobs" there. Winters are about the same as Iowa. Nice area, and it was fun being closer to the ocean. Your points regarding natural disasters is valid, too. Other than NH, though, I'm less enthralled with the rest of the New England states, but only for political and economic reasons. I love visiting, and if the political and economic climate improves, I'd certainly consider a move. New Hampshire does remain on the radar, but I think it isn't likely for us at the moment.

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ccpetersmd
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LG, thanks! Eastern OK and

LG, thanks! Eastern OK and western AR are certainly still under consideration. We lived in Oklahoma City for a couple of years a decade ago, and really liked our visits to the Tulsa area. "Sir", as they say, is my dad; you can call my Chris, Christopher, Doc, whatever (even many of my patients have taken to calling me by my first name). Yes, I'm weird that way...

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Poet
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Consider Oregon And Compare Other Parts Of The United States

This is a map of nuclear fallout if the U.S. were to be hit by nuclear attack on strategic targets. The chart uses predicted typical sprintime winds from the 1960s. Dated, but still worth looking at. New England is pretty much a big red smear.

Now this chart shows just nuclear power plants. The "circles" don't quite take into account wind patterns in the event of a Fukushima-like event, but exposure does decrease with distance. I suspect we'd have a similar pattern, since prevailing patterns are west to east, driven by the jet stream... (Would love to hear from Alpha Mike on this.)

I haven't found more recent wind fallout charts in my brief search on-line.  If the jet stream changes or even if a minor shift occurs, such maps would not be as reliable. So don't use this for your sole consideration. But just look at all the plants in the Central and Eastern Time Zones...

Population density map, since the continental U.S. population density would correlated to food/water needs.

Water supply sustainability by 2050. Prediction. Arizon and Texas, not looking too good. Even today's charts wouldn't be too good...

Farmland prices, 2008:

USDA Plant Hardiness Zones.

Does Oregon look good or what? Fallout proximity distances, water tables, ocean proximity for trade, forests, fertile farmland, summers cooler and winters milder than much of the country. No sales tax. There is an income tax (http://www.tax-rates.org/Oregon/income-tax). I haven't looked into property taxes yet.

I don't have family or friends there, but if aside from that, I'd choose Oregon. (Is that why Alpha Mike likes the Pacific North West, besides having grown up there?)

Poet

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Dogs_In_A_Pile
Status: Martenson Brigade Member (Offline)
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Posts: 2606
Full disclosure
joemanc wrote:

Snow melts, big deal.

Yeah, it melts alright.

In June......

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A. M.
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Posts: 2368
Poet

For sure - the PNW is a great place for a lot of reasons:
1. Mentality - it's a pretty socially accepting place with a lot of intelligence. The schools are well off compared to most of the nation, and in general, there's a lot of "down home" folks with some pioneer roots. I think the level of resiliency of this area will make it a migratory stomping grounds, but we'll see.

2. Ample fresh water - almost to the point of absurdity, there is plenty of rain. Also, to the East, there are both vast deserts and mountains. The terrain make natural "barriers" in case of the "Worst Case" scenario. It also traps the windward rain in both the SEA/PDX areas and again on the Couer d'Alene/Spokane area. Frigid winters out there, but lots of drizzle on the west side.

3. Environment - the amount of vegetation makes it a pretty clean place to live. Dense wilderness and easy access to the ocean open a lot of strategic and resource opportunities; access to fish, salt and good trade ports/rail ways make it a good strategic place to live. Especially along the Columbia.

4. With the threat of Nukes - JBLM (Lewis/McChord Military complex) is undoubtedly a target - that said, I don't think anything short of a full scale nuclear war would bring any protracted fallout threats - even with Fukishima, the radiation we saw was weak and short-lived, and that was a worst case. If you want, I can talk at length about the longwave (Jet stream) patterns throughout the year, and how they shape the area's climate and how it would affect fallout.

Also, lots of available land - albeit expensive.
If anyone is interested, let me know. A "Martenson sub-colony" on the west coast sounds good to me =D

Aaron

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JAG
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Posts: 2492
Thanks Poet

Thanks for the info Poet, and you're right, Oregon does look good.

Maybe I will finally get over and check it out this fall. Does the PCH extend all the way up into Oregon? I've always wanted to take that drive.

Edit: Concerning the OP, I have no plans on the leaving the USA. The last thing I want to be a stranger in a foreign land when a global financial crisis occurs. 

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