The least talked-about E is very relevant

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The least talked-about E is very relevant

A recent article in New Scientist talks about the rate of dying off of biodiversity in the natural environment.

"The world is about to miss another deadline. By 2010 there was supposed to be "a significant reduction" in the speed at which varieties of life are disappearing..."

"... overwhelming evidence that the natural world is being destroyed as fast as ever,"

 

see:

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn18842-biodiversity-try-as-we-might...?

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Re: The least talked-about E is very relevant

Could you name a species or two of the thousands that supposedly  became extinct this year?  I am just curious about what I'm saving with the 4 billion dollars this guy is asking for.  That seems like a really SWEET deal, if we can save the planet with only 4 billion dollars.

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Re: The least talked-about E is very relevant

docmims

this is a very limited list. But still interesting to see, I have no idea if it is accurate so apologies in advance.

Still I have been able to confirm the accuracy of some of the mammals extinctions llisted (Java Tiger for example) from one or two other sources.

Still no guarantee it is accurate but it is a site that lists both animal and plant extinctions in one location. Regards,

Denise

 

http://extinct.petermaas.nl/

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Re: The least talked-about E is very relevant

I fear there won't be all that much left to scavenge over in less than a century. I also find it highly likely that there will be a 90% reduction of the human race over the next 100 years that should well reduce the decline and extinction rate of remaining species. That will be due, in no small part, to the 4.5 to 6.7% decline rate in fossil fuel energy.

The very diversity that humanity is destroying daily is the very hub that we feed from. Without any illusion, the first of the human race to shrug off their mortal coil will be those who hold a value to paper, and who assume all ecological destruction can be bought and paid for to make good ... 

Some 17 billion oil slaves keep 2 billion of the 6.9 billion people living on this planet in a state of mind that they have space to steer themselves, using technology, out of the path of famine. Less than 5% of the global population uses a quarter of these energy resources in decline. As a model for other nations to learn from, there is a hope in me that those 5%; well over-due a wide arching slap in the face, are going to be the rule of thumb for other nations to learn from ... 

The Telegraph wrote:

Luisiana Calls For 6,000 More Troops As Oil Spill Nears Coast

Bobby Jindal, the Louisiana Governor, has asked the US Defense Department for funds to deploy up to 6,000 National Guard troops to help clean up the damage from a massive Gulf of Mexico oil slick that is expected to hit the state's shoreline in the next 24 hours.

The leading edge of the massive oil spill is expected to reach the Louisiana shore today, as government officials, BP and others, rushed to try to protect the fragile coastal marshlands from an ecological disaster.

The event, which is feared could become worse than the Exxon Valdez spill, has been deemed a disaster of "national significance", and President Barack Obama has pledged to "use every single available resource" - including the military - to help fight the oil slick.

"Part of the slick was about 3 miles from the Mississippi River delta", said National Oceanic Atmospheric Administration spokesman Charles Henry.

A blown-out well a mile underwater is leaking in three places, spewing 5,000 barrels a day into the gulf - five times more than originally thought.

The leaks started after a drilling rig that BP PLC was operating exploded and sank last week, 50 miles off of the Louisiana coast. The spill is now visible from space, measuring 100 miles long and 40 miles wide.

Link To Article

~ VF ~

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Re: The least talked-about E is very relevant

For me the "least talked about E" is my first priority.  There can be no sustainable economy/community/society without healthy air, land and water.

The Exxon Valdez spill was formative in my life.  It was a catalyst to become ecologically aware.  I can't sit by and watch that happen again (and two-fold it appears from current estimates).  I'm gearing up to head down there and pitch in.  BP could be responsible for the worst single worst environmental (and economic) man-made catastrophe in the history of the U.S.

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Re: The least talked-about E is very relevant

Wildjo

BP is not responsible we are.

V

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Re: The least talked-about E is very relevant

Wildjo,

Thankyou

~ VF ~

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Re: The least talked-about E is very relevant
V wrote:

Wildjo

BP is not responsible we are.

V

 

Couldn't disagree more.

I have lived my life, since I have been able to, in a manner to oppose the dominant paradigm's lack of consideration for the environment and the future.  I've testified in Congress to end practices like strip-mining, I've been very active in specific efforts, I even went to law school to become and environmental lawyer as the groups I was most active in needed legal tools the most.  Yet, these efforts are eclipsed by the billions spent by extractive industry to maintain the unsustainable status quo.  They spend billions on influence and psuedo science to support that status quo and keep the sheeple in line.  You can't blame individuals for failing to be able to extricate themselves from that paradigm.  You can--and must--blame the BP's of the world and the minions behind their curtains.

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Re: The least talked-about E is very relevant

Thank you Denise.  According to that list there are 3 verified extinct in the wild species from Hawaii in the past decade.  This of course is 3 too many.  There are also as I recall 75 species that are threatened with extinction in the wild.  This also is, of course, 75 too many.  If you investtigate the cause behind most of these threatened species it is human encroachment of habitat and human introduction of foreign species to previously isolated habitats.  These foreign species either eat the endangered species (ie Mongoose in Hawaii or snakes in Guam) or outcompete native species for scarce food resources (mammals in Australia or fire ants in the American South).  I agree that these extinctions are clearly the result of human meddling, but I fail to see the thousands of extinctions claimed by a scientist who claims that a mere 4 Billion dollars could save these species from extinctions as claimed in the article at the beginning of this post.  I believe that research and conservation efforts deserve funding, but I believe we should realize what is Hyperbole and what is fact.

Like VanityFox, I think the most probable outcome is mass extinction of humans as we outgrow our resources.  However VanityFox, this is not "Punishment" for exploitation of natural resources; it is just nature at work.

I will leave you with a Dr Mimsism:

For every endangered species out there that contains the cure for cancer, there is probably one with an Ebola like virus that will wipe out the human race.

As Aaron says: CHEERS!!Wink

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Re: The least talked-about E is very relevant
wildjo wrote:
V wrote:

Wildjo

BP is not responsible we are.

V

 

Couldn't disagree more.

I have lived my life, since I have been able to, in a manner to oppose the dominant paradigm's lack of consideration for the environment and the future.  I've testified in Congress to end practices like strip-mining, I've been very active in specific efforts, I even went to law school to become and environmental lawyer as the groups I was most active in needed legal tools the most.  Yet, these efforts are eclipsed by the billions spent by extractive industry to maintain the unsustainable status quo.  They spend billions on influence and psuedo science to support that status quo and keep the sheeple in line.  You can't blame individuals for failing to be able to extricate themselves from that paradigm.  You can--and must--blame the BP's of the world and the minions behind their curtains.

Nonsense!  Legally, BP is to blame.  Morally and ethically, everyone is to blame.   If you dont get that then YOU are part of that "dominant paradigm's lack of consideration for the environment and the future."  When sheeple like you quit pointing the fingers at industry, take responsibility for the problem and reduce their consumption of non-renewable resources, then strip mining and oil production will end.

I have spent my entire career in mining and energy working in a lawful and environmentally responsible manner.  The simple fact is that You CAN NOT mine or drill without environmental consequences.  You can not LIVE on this earth without environmental consequences.  Show me proof otherwise. 

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Re: The least talked-about E is very relevant

Oh then you do not own a car, use any materials made of plastic, do not use any electricity etc., etc., etc., etc.,

My hat is off to you. It is  a life I aspire to but have not gotten to. You see my computer is made of and by fossil fuels.

Congrats wildjo

V

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Re: The least talked-about E is very relevant

I have no moral or ethical culpability for the fact that BP's well is spilling millions of gallons of oil into the gulf.  This remains true whether or not, having been born into a system I did not create, I am forced to buy products made of oil because there is no alternative, though I strive to find them and limit my impact.  The BPs of the world want people like you (mooslick and v) to deflect the focus.  BP and the minions behind it could choose not to drill in the Gulf.  They could choose to not buy toothless regulations (which they have a long record of violating anyway).  They could choose not to take the risk of drilling in the ocean floor a mile below the surface.  Yet, they make the opposite choices, solely for profit.

Culpability only comes into play for me (and you), if I am willfully ignorant (yours does not appear to be willful) and make no attempt to extricate myself from the cancerous system.  That process of extrication is not a red pill or blue pill proposition, however.   It's much messier.  I don't share the blame for BP's oil spill, even if I buy the limited gas and oil and it's detritus, so long as I engage the process to the best of my ability and resources.

BP and its contractors (including Haliburton, who has already been sued for their alleged shoddy well work) are responsible for the spill and they should be punished commensurate with the harm they have caused.

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Re: The least talked-about E is very relevant
docmims wrote:

Like VanityFox, I think the most probable outcome is mass extinction of humans as we outgrow our resources.  However VanityFox, this is not "Punishment" for exploitation of natural resources; it is just nature at work.

I will leave you with a Dr Mimsism:

For every endangered species out there that contains the cure for cancer, there is probably one with an Ebola like virus that will wipe out the human race.

As Aaron says: CHEERS!!Wink

Docmims,

It is Human Nature, such that we have had immense amounts of resource to exploit, along with our deadly achilles heel weakness for Linear instead of Exponential thinking. 

We are the Cancer; the Ebola, to every species that has succumbed and is yet to succumb, with our journey of exploitative rape of the planet. We, in due course, have become the endangered species, though as yet, the majority populous has no clue.

In all, I have witnessed little success, if our success, along with all of our wonderous advancement' were purely fleeting and unsustainable ...

Laetifico,

~ VF ~ 

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Re: The least talked-about E is very relevant

Human nature.  Good one VF.  However, Ebola is not extinct.  It lives on in government labs (human nature also).

Have a nice day.

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Re: The least talked-about E is very relevant
Docmims wrote:

Human nature.  Good one VF.  However, Ebola is not extinct.  It lives on in government labs (human nature also).

Have a nice day.

Docmims,

Yes, Human Beings are as of a Cancer; as of Ebola, to every species on the planet. We are an allegorical variant of ...

... Ebola was used as allegory ...

... and your variation of human nature is no different, though I ask myself if you were worth the breath for reply, suspecting that my reply is my variation.

Strangely, if you spent less time writing pointless response to me assuming yourself intelligent when you are not, maybe you could well go learn something useful and teach me something instead ...

~ VF ~

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Re: The least talked-about E is very relevant

wildjo

Your attitude and viewpoint is extremely naive and dangerous. There are almost 7 billion people on the planet who eat oil. Companies will fill the insatiable craving for "black gold" Oil spills and other disasters will be an inevitable outcome.

I am sorry you are not able to see your own culpability.

V

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Re: The least talked-about E is very relevant
V wrote:

wildjo

Your attitude and viewpoint is extremely naive and dangerous. There are almost 7 billion people on the planet who eat oil. Companies will fill the insatiable craving for "black gold" Oil spills and other disasters will be an inevitable outcome.

I am sorry you are not able to see your own culpability.

V

V,

I like your writing here in the most part because it allows people to open out and defend their point of view strongly in retort. I wish therefore to write exactly the same words as you below, only this time written from the point of view of Wildjo:-

[quote=]

V,

Your attitude and viewpoint is extremely naive and dangerous. There are almost 7 billion people on the planet who eat oil. Companies will fill the insatiable craving for "black gold" Oil spills and other disasters will be an inevitable outcome.

I am sorry you are not able to see your own culpability.

~ VF ~

... do you see what I'm saying?

There are a lot of people that write here who regularly fight for their rights and the rights of others in marches of protest and direct action. They are passionate about the actions of industry. You have personally written of your own actions, with protest marches that you have attended during the sixties and seventies.

I do not see you here as a spectator, but I do fear contradiction in your posts.

With the best of my intentions, I show a consistency in my posts at this forum ...

~ VF ~

 

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Re: The least talked-about E is very relevant
V wrote:

wildjo

Your attitude and viewpoint is extremely naive and dangerous. There are almost 7 billion people on the planet who eat oil. Companies will fill the insatiable craving for "black gold" Oil spills and other disasters will be an inevitable outcome.

I am sorry you are not able to see your own culpability.

V

V,

The BPs of the world are happy indeed that you are here.  I'm sorry you can't sort through the moral complexities of the issues and place the blame squarely where it belongs -- at the feet at the multinationals who use whatever measures are necessary to maintain the unsustainable status quo.

Moving on to more important issues, we will see that the BP spill story could enter a new chapter as the hundreds of thousands of gallons of chemical dispersants being used simply to hide the oil leak beneath the service will be revealed to be just as dangerous as the oil.

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Re: The least talked-about E is very relevant

Wildjo -

You either get it or you dont.  And, you clearly dont get it.  I have sat at meetings with Esso, Haliburton, Total and other corporate leaders who support the coal and oil industry.   Their arrogance and self rightousness is a mirror reflection of your own. 

I am one of the "minions" you patronize.   If I dont support these industries, someone else will and they may not care about the environmental consequences as much as I do.  If these oil and coal companies can't mine and drill in the US, they will extract somewhere else where the laws are more lax and and the risks are higher.   All to meet you and every other consumer's need for "limited gas and oil and it's detritus"  

Next week, for instance, I am headed to a meeting with the BLM, USFW, G&F and the Governor's representatives to discuss the sage grouse and a proposed coal mine.  Basically, there are 18 sage grouse that occupy a lek located near this proposed mine.  This mine may not be opened because of it.  Meanwhile, the state maintains a hunting season on them.   If this mine doesnt open, a power plant and 4 mineral processing plants will be burning coal from an existing mine that has been around for 100 years.  The coal in the existing mine is dirtier and has less energy value.  The mining equipment is old and will pollute more than updated equipment.   The existing mine will need to strip deeper to recover the coal.  So essentially several bureaucrats will be deciding  between 8 times more PM10 emissions, 150 jobs and whether or not 18 sage grouse can fly 2 miles to a nearby lek to do their thing.   Easy choice, eh?  No, this issue has been unresolved since 2002.   The last time we met there was a 25 minute arguement between lawyers (all on the same side mind you) on the definition of "accepted science" - insanity!

All of the above is unadulerated illusion to me.  So, meanwhile, my family and I take responsibilty for our part in the problem by dealing with things that are real and in my control by reducing our use of fossil energy.  We are building a 22'x48' greenhouse and raising chickens to grow our own food .  I have converted two vehicles to waste vegetable oil and drive one of them back and forth to work.  I have installed several solar, wind and microhydro systems.    We use wood heat in our house.  Even though I can easily afford new clothes, I buy all my clothes secondhand.    We buy what we can secondhand.   When we do buy new,  we look for durablity not disposable junk.  We compost most everything.   I have plans to install solar water heat.  We dont use AC. etc, etc. 

From the standpoint of the companies you demonize, they think of you as just another parasite looking for nourishment.  They let you hang on because you are easy to predict and manage.   They hold seminars on managing antagonists and perceptions.   They hire other lawyers from environmental groups to deal with you.   I, on the other hand, are considered a loose cannon which they dont know how to deal with.  I do my job well but I represent someone who values something they dont understand and cannot predict.  I am not a part of their matrix and never will be. 

I think it is going to take a deep experience to weaken that false ego that insulates you from the pain of being a part of the problem.  I have quote on my desk from Carl Jung -  "The foundation of all mental illness is an unwillingness to experience legitimate suffering"    The legimate suffering. in this case, is the effort and discomfort that comes with eliminating or reducing their use of fossil fuel.   I hope someday you see this before you have to.   But, voluntary or not, you will have to soon.

This is my last word on this matter.

- mooselick7

 

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Re: The least talked-about E is very relevant

Paul, wildjo

I will refer you to mooselicks post. Would you like a little salt with your oil today. PS I am currently on the Gulf Coast of Louisiana.

V

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Re: The least talked-about E is very relevant
mooselick7 wrote:
wildjo wrote:
V wrote:

Wildjo

BP is not responsible we are.

V

 

Couldn't disagree more.

I have lived my life, since I have been able to, in a manner to oppose the dominant paradigm's lack of consideration for the environment and the future.  I've testified in Congress to end practices like strip-mining, I've been very active in specific efforts, I even went to law school to become and environmental lawyer as the groups I was most active in needed legal tools the most.  Yet, these efforts are eclipsed by the billions spent by extractive industry to maintain the unsustainable status quo.  They spend billions on influence and psuedo science to support that status quo and keep the sheeple in line.  You can't blame individuals for failing to be able to extricate themselves from that paradigm.  You can--and must--blame the BP's of the world and the minions behind their curtains.

Nonsense!  Legally, BP is to blame.  Morally and ethically, everyone is to blame.   If you dont get that then YOU are part of that "dominant paradigm's lack of consideration for the environment and the future."  When sheeple like you quit pointing the fingers at industry, take responsibility for the problem and reduce their consumption of non-renewable resources, then strip mining and oil production will end.

I have spent my entire career in mining and energy working in a lawful and environmentally responsible manner.  The simple fact is that You CAN NOT mine or drill without environmental consequences.  You can not LIVE on this earth without environmental consequences.  Show me proof otherwise. 

I agree with this except for the part where you say, "Morally and ethically, everyone is to blame." If this is true, to not wish to be blamed is tantamount to restriciting your lifestyle to where you do not use any drop of oil whatsoever in what we choose to wear or what to drive. If we cannot avoid using oil for the time being (=true) then we cannot help ourselves but be blamed for the crisis. I believe Wildjo thinks that BP could have done more to prevent it, yet if it had, some other oil company would have had the problem, then he would blame that instead. He thinks it is unreasonable to blame ourselves when we are unable to make a choice. I think he is right about that.

However, what you say is true.  Due to the fact we still use oil, we are accomplices in this matter. From a high-chair perspective, we ARE to be blamed for the crisis. People do not like to be blamed, and they are upsetted if they realize it takes them ridiculous amounts of their time and energy to become innocent in the matter! Who likes to be born guilty and systematize a way to spend $1,000's of dollars so that one is no longer to blame? I believe some level of mercy is in order here.

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Re: The least talked-about E is very relevant

Moose and V,

I appreciate a glimpse into Moose's life. 

I haven't been an armchair activist.  I was one of the first three in my state to have a permitted grid intertie solar system installed on our home.  This came after two decades of fighting inside and outside the law to stop stripmining.  I led the effort to end the practice on our local national forest.  I then went to work representing--pro bono--coal field residents in their battles with coal mine operators who were responsible for blasting that damaged homes and eliminated their water supplies.  I have sat at the kitchen tables of the poorest of the poor in Appalachia and looked at the orange water coming from their faucets.  I have battled with the nastiest of nasty lawyers with bottomless wells of resources at their disposal to defend the status quo and with indifference to right and wrong.

I now live in an intentional rural community that endeavors to grow and raise it's own food organically.  We supply all our water from the rain.   I personally live in a home hand built by another of the members using local resources including second hand windows for an integrated greenhouse, which no houses the seedlings for our community and personal gardens.

In both my personal and professional life, I have worked to fight the insanity that is modern industrial culture--growth for the sake of growth, the ideology of the cancer cell (thank you Ed Abbey).   I've put my butt on the line and risked arrest many times.  I have lived--and continue to live--a life that is consistent with my values.  I could make twice as much as I do--and have been offered those jobs--representing the adversaries in the coal, oil, and natural gas industries, but reject them out of hand.  Even when I have trouble paying back my student loans in any given month, I never would even consider accepting a client in the industry.  And I recognize that, with more money, I could more quickly cut the connections to that unsustainable system.  Yet, in my calculus, joining them, in any such way is far more damaging than "participating" ever so lightly and temporarily in an economy built around them.

I recognize that you hinge blameworthiness on the mere fact of that participation, no matter what level and no matter whether there is a choice or an effort to extricate oneself.  To me blameworthiness is not so passive.  Rather, it is all about, morally and legally, intention.

So, I also reject your effort to blame me and anyone else like me for the BP oil spill.  Those who are caught in the system, yet fight it even though it would be easier not to, share no culpability.  In addition, 99% of the 7 billion souls on the planet you blame right along with BP simply because they don't have the resources and/or knowledge to fight for a more sustainable lifestyle are equally blameless in my view.  I can be blamed for a lot of things.  The BP oil spill is not one of them.

The blame rests right on the oily doorstep of BP, their minions (which, apparently, includes you according to your post), the lobbyists and lawyers who represent them, the government officials who either stand idly by (hoping the revolving door lands them with six figures after their cushy term in "public" service) or actively enable the BPs through lax or unenforced regulation and policies that support the status quo despite all the evidence in the world that it is catastrophically diminishing the planet.  No big deal, apparently, as long as the quarterly statements are in line with shareholder expectation and the campaign coffers are full.

Since you have placed your hands in front of your face with the "this is my last word on the matter", I don't expect you to read or reply.  We're on opposite sides of the fence, anyway, and unlikely to remove the barrier between us. 

I wish you the best in your search for the lesser of two evils. Now that I think about it, I really don't mind that you blame me and everyone else who must--by shere perverse pervasiveness of  it in our industrial culture--sip oil to get by, even while we strive to cut off that supply and to create a sustainable relationship with the earth.  It has no consequence.  And I'll continue to place the blame where I think it should be: on BP and those who work hand-in-oil stained-hand with them simply because it provdes the best paycheck and despite the obvious consequences. 

 

 

 

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Re: The least talked-about E is very relevant

wildjo,

I have enjoyed reading your philosophy and how you fit into the system that will exist and perpetuate itself for as long as it can.

Prisoners Dilemma is alive and well everywhere in our system and will be so until the end, I feel.  When people opt out,

others just seem to pickup the ball and drive it farther.

 

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Re: The least talked-about E is very relevant

V,

I've decided I no longer see much value in writing on this forum, since after all, there really isn't much point ...

I've written to Chris Martenson advising him to shut down the forum at the end of the month, and he agreed whole-heartedly. He's contacted Pfiser and they've given back his old position. He's re-taken ownership of his old waterfront, 5 bathroom house in Mystic, CT, complete with a new gas-guzzling power boat as a little treat for all his pointless work. From what I gather, he feels that the five years he's spent getting his message across is a lost cause and time wasted. "It's much better to place our lips over the well-heads of the World and nourish from them like a babe suckling from a tit", he said.

I contacted Richard Heinberg also, and his feelings were that the books he'd written and the lectures he'd travelled the World to in an attempt at promoting his view of reality were a lost cause and that, judging from what I told him, and after glugging back 2 bubble strips of 20 milligram Prozac, told me the rope and the hook were standing by. Unfortunately, not being the most practical of men, he was struggling with the task of creating the perfect noose. Thankful for technology, he appreciated the comprehensive diagram I emailed him so he could form the perfect knot for crushing a windpipe effectively. His last word was drowned out by the sound of a falling chair ... bless him!

James Kunstler was beside himself when I called, so I made my way to his office. I remembered the sound of a thud and female screams as the elevator door shut. Little mind that when I arrived at his office, on the desk, a man of such defining words had written simply - "I've gone out the window". He will be missed.

As for me, the wife spent the weekend packing and took the cat. Before she stepped, she slapped me, calling me a hypocrite. Cold beer and burger, and the World appearing skewed, it is but a matter of time before I accept my fate ...

Oh, the misery,

~ VF ~

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Re: The least talked-about E is very relevant
Vanityfox451 wrote:

I contacted Richard Heinberg also, and his feelings were that the books he'd written and the lectures he'd travelled the World to in an attempt at promoting his view of reality were a lost cause and that, judging from what I told him, and after glugging back 2 bubble strips of 20 milligram Prozac, told me the rope and the hook were standing by. Unfortunately, not being the most practical of men, he was struggling with the task of creating the perfect noose. Thankful for technology, he appreciated the comprehensive diagram I emailed him so he could form the perfect knot for crushing a windpipe effectively. His last word was drowned out by the sound of a falling chair ... bless him!

Are you serious? Assisted sucide?

Wow..... Undecided

I know that people have the right to and all, but....

*shakes*

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Re: The least talked-about E is very relevant
Vanityfox451 wrote:
Docmims wrote:

Human nature.  Good one VF.  However, Ebola is not extinct.  It lives on in government labs (human nature also).

Have a nice day.

Docmims,

Yes, Human Beings are as of a Cancer; as of Ebola, to every species on the planet. We are an allegorical variant of ...

... Ebola was used as allegory ...

... and your variation of human nature is no different, though I ask myself if you were worth the breath for reply, suspecting that my reply is my variation.

Strangely, if you spent less time writing pointless response to me assuming yourself intelligent when you are not, maybe you could well go learn something useful and teach me something instead ...

~ VF ~

Perhaps if you didn't assume your intellectual superiority, you might understand my tongue in cheek allegory.  Humor and succinctness can advance your cause much better than an intense full page treatise.  Congrats on reading the Saul Alinsky book.

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V
Status: Platinum Member (Offline)
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Posts: 849
Re: The least talked-about E is very relevant

Au Revoir Paul

Ditto Hienberg and Kuntsler. Of course parting is such sweet sorrow. But hey this does not have to be the end wee can go back channel. Or we can make a pact to reunite in the next life.

It is a shame that such brilliant people took such extreme unnecessary steps. They could have just as easily self medicated like the rest of the planet. You do remember Huxley and Soma. Or they could have taken the blue pill or they could have just turned the tv back on. But maybe Hunter Thompson had it right and it has finally gotten weird enough.

At any rate I am glad to see the Confederacy of the Dunces is having the desired effect. You might wish to take on Catch 22 next. It seems to be very apropos now.

TA for now. must go pick my dinner from the garden

V

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Vanityfox451
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Re: The least talked-about E is very relevant
V wrote:

Au Revoir Paul

Ditto Hienberg and Kuntsler. Of course parting is such sweet sorrow. But hey, this does not have to be the end, we can go back channel. Or we can make a pact to reunite in the next life.

It is a shame that such brilliant people took such extreme unnecessary steps. They could have just as easily self medicated like the rest of the planet. You do remember Huxley and Soma. Or they could have taken the blue pill or they could have just turned the tv back on. But maybe Hunter Thompson had it right and it has finally gotten weird enough.

At any rate I am glad to see the Confederacy of the Dunces is having the desired effect. You might wish to take on Catch 22 next. It seems to be very apropos now.

TA for now. must go pick my dinner from the garden

V

Bonjoir V,

I'm writing of selflessness. Isn't that what it is that drives people like Martenson and Heinberg?

I can give just the books you refer to: -

Catch 22 - by Joseph Heller 

A Confederacy of Dunces ~ by John Kennedy Toole

Fear & Loathing in Las Vegas ~ by Hunter S Thompson

Brave New World ~ by Aldous Huxley

... but you have to understand these books, not just read them; or worse still, have them littering your bookshelves to make you appear interesting; use reverse psychology to appear experienced and knowledgeable, where no experienced knowledge exists, but for a series of sound bites of borrowed passages from them, while sneering like a bull dog licking p!ss off a nettle as a feigned know-all.

I neither see two camps on this thread either, because that would be a perilous ideal where there is none.

What we have here is a series of arrogant self-interest, confused about the logic of selflessness. An assumption that it will always be someone else who will fix the problems of this world. That with personal apathy, things will always get done without raising a finger.

Strange that this motley crew of characters can talk amongst themselves here in quiet contemplation of their thoughts, when the very existence of this site that we write on was built in itself through selflessness.

Here's the rub. People from all walks of life have to stop thinking just of themselves in their situation, but that they are interconnected with everyone else, and without those 'else', they don't have a future that is recognisable from the present.  

It isn't authors throwing themselves out of windows and tying themselves up to hooks that are committing suicide, it is the self-interested, all of them assuming they're surfing into land on the crest of a Hunter S Thompson' wave. As for using Hunters 'wave' as metaphor, and with the knowledge that he blew his brains out a few years ago, I hardly think he did it to profit higher book sales ...

... and so ...

Mooselick7,

Everyone out there and everyone inside this forum is, in some respects, a one in a million. At some point in the future, whatever it is that you're doing now in preparation, will be completed. Then what ...

What is it that you could be doing while we still have the time, that your one in a million ability could be useful for ... ?

E. E. Cummings wrote:

may my heart always be open to little
birds who are the secrets of living
whatever they sing is better than to know
and if men should not hear them men are old

may my mind stroll about hungry
and fearless and thirsty and supple
and even if it's sunday may i be wrong
for whenever men are right they are not young

and may myself do nothing usefully
and love yourself so more than truly
there's never been quite such a fool who could fail
pulling all the sky over him with one smile 

 
~ VF ~

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Vanityfox451
Status: Diamond Member (Offline)
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Re: The least talked-about E is very relevant
docmims wrote:
Vanityfox451 wrote:
Docmims wrote:

Human nature.  Good one VF.  However, Ebola is not extinct.  It lives on in government labs (human nature also).

Have a nice day.

Docmims,

Yes, Human Beings are as of a Cancer; as of Ebola, to every species on the planet. We are an allegorical variant of ...

... Ebola was used as allegory ...

... and your variation of human nature is no different, though I ask myself if you were worth the breath for reply, suspecting that my reply is my variation.

Strangely, if you spent less time writing pointless response to me assuming yourself intelligent when you are not, maybe you could well go learn something useful and teach me something instead ...

~ VF ~

Perhaps if you didn't assume your intellectual superiority, you might understand my tongue in cheek allegory.  Humor and succinctness can advance your cause much better than an intense full page treatise.  Congrats on reading the Saul Alinsky book.

Docmims,

We don't have to read Saul Alinsky, simply watch Obama, and you've read his book. That would give answer to laughter as of the sound of a rattling drain. There in lies the meme ...

~ VF ~

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V
Status: Platinum Member (Offline)
Joined: Dec 14 2009
Posts: 849
Re: The least talked-about E is very relevant

Hi Paul

Here is another book for your list I will post it on the other thread as well. If you follow this one it will take you down the rabbit hole few emerge from.

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Cover of the 1987 second edition.

Ecodefense: A Field Guide To Monkeywrenching is a book edited by Dave Foreman, with a foreword by Edward Abbey.

[edit]Background

Ned Ludd Books published the first two editions, with Abbzug Press publishing a third edition. The book was first published in 1985.

Much of the inspiration for the book, as well as the term "monkeywrenching," came from Edward Abbey's 1975 novel The Monkey Wrench Gang. Other inspiration for the book likely came from the 1972 book Ecotage!, which was published by the group Environmental Action and was in turn inspired by the actions of an activist in the Chicago, Illinois area who called himself "The Fox," and engaged in such vigilante actions to protect the environment as plugging smokestacks. Much of the actual content for Ecodefense came from the "Dear Ned Ludd" column in the newsletter of the group Earth First! during the 1980s.

Monkeywrenching is a form of ecodefense. So are temporary restraining orders and tree sitting, as well as non-violent blockade and civil disobedience.

Other forms include tree spiking, and billboarding. These are more controversial because they involve destruction, vandalism, and/or the potential for injury.

 

V

PS That 55 gallon drum of high fructose corn syrup in my barn is for bio diesel production. And of course it is very handy to have a cutting torch and small cylinders to get to the more remote places on the farm for uh repairs

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Vanityfox451
Status: Diamond Member (Offline)
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Posts: 1636
Re: The least talked-about E is very relevant

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