interesting take on the collateral of our national debt

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strabes's picture
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interesting take on the collateral of our national debt

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cd-SLRyuRq0[/quote

 

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Re: interesting take on the collateral of our national debt

Strabes,

Thank you for posting this...Stefan Molyneux is soooo precise.

I'll be passing this video and your work along to everyone I know!

 

 

 

 

 

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Re: interesting take on the collateral of our national debt

Well done and thanks for the post!

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Re: interesting take on the collateral of our national debt

Strabes,

Wow!  What a fantastic video.  I always enjoy getting Stefan Molyneux's perspective on things.  Thx

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The Money That Is Sold Abroad Is You ~ Stefan Molyneux

Strabes,

I'm a huge fan of Stefan Molyneux as I'm sure you're aware ...

He reads very much as well as he sounds, so I've created a transcript of the video for your thread in appreciation for posting it.

Best,

~ VF ~

Transcript: -

The Money That Is Sold Abroad Is You by Stefan Molyneux

George Orwell once wrote that, “The great enemy of clear language is insincerity. When there is a gap between ones real and ones declared aims, one turns, as it were, instinctively, to long words and exhausted idioms, like a cuttle fish spurting out ink”.

You’ve probably heard confusing fraises like, ‘The Trade Deficit’, ‘The Falling Dollar’, ‘The National Debt’, ‘Unfunded Liabilities’, and so on, which all sound vague and actuarial, and vaguely, well, not me. The reality behind these accounting fraises is perfectly monstrous.

When someone, a foreigner say, loans money to the American government, what are they getting in return? Well, they’re getting promises of interest payments and eventual repayment of the principal. Where does your government get this money?

A government is not a business; does not generate profits in the free market, so where does it get the money to repay its creditors?

Are you beginning to understand that it is not dollars that are being sold, or bonds, or agency debt, or treasuries or anything like that. Where is your government going to get the money to pay off its creditors?

It’s not pieces of paper, or contracts or computer bits that are being sold. There is only one thing that the government has to sell. Governments have only one asset that they can use as collateral.

Your leaders are selling...

... YOU!!!

When China lends $800 billion to your government, what they get in return is a guarantee that $10,000, plus interest, will be taken from your family at gunpoint and shipped overseas.

When a farmer gets a loan from the bank, he uses his livestock as collateral. It is the milk and meat his cows will produce in the future that he will use to pay off his loan. The bank is buying a share in his cows.

You are the livestock that your leaders use as collateral. The leaders that you cheer for, and throw parades for, and drop balloons behind, and donate money to are selling you to Chinese rulers.

To the Japanese, to the Nigerians, to South American drug lords with accounts in the Caribbean banking centres. To Russia, to Korea, to Egypt, to Colombia, to Chile, to the Philippians, to Malaysia, and anyone else who’s willing to give them a few dollars in return for the blood, sweat and toil of your future.

The flag that you prays, and the anthems that you sing, and the rulers that you weep and kneel before have as much loyalty to you as a plantation owner had to his slaves. And sadly, plantation slaves had more pride than we do. Plantation slaves did not generally praise their masters for selling them off; for auctioning off the lives, hopes, dreams and futures of their own little children.

We can understand that cattle may lick the hand of the farmer who lowers an axe to its neck, because cattle are dumb beasts that cannot comprehend their real relationship with the farmer and his eminent plans for them. What is our excuse?

When we chant, “USA!!! ~ USA!!! ~ USA!!!”. When we cheer, and bow, and beg, and scrape, and sing, and weep with joy that some new farmer now presides over the wholesale dismantling and sale of our families futures. When we love with obsessive emptiness, the leaders who laugh while they auction us off to every tin pot dictator and stockbroker the World over, what is our excuse?

Has our pride been so broken that we lunge with pathetic joy at every new silver-tongued demagogue who pretends to care for us even a tiny little bit?

In the future, our children will demand to know why we knelt and cheered as they were sold off on the auctioneers block.

This video and my life’s work is my answer to my child.

WHAT'S YOURS???   

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Re: interesting take on the collateral of our national debt

Debt/money slaves?

Isn't that a bit harsh?

I mean if that were true, people would find themselves endlessly working to pay off even minuscule loans under a system specifically designed to allow usurious interest rates and numbingly complex legal frameworks that favor the creditors and leave the people in a state of near-perpetual debt-servitude.

Oh, wait...

PHOENIX — When the bank sued Leann Weaver for not paying her credit card balance, her reaction was typical for someone in that situation. Personal and financial setbacks weighed her down, and she knew she owed the $2,470. So she never went to court to defend herself.

She was startled by what happened next. When she swiped her debit card at the grocery store, it was declined. It turned out Capital One Bank had taken $224.25 from her paycheck, a quarter of her wages for two weeks of work at a retail chain, and her bank account was overdrawn.

“They’re kicking somebody who’s already in the dirt,” she said.

(...)

The case of Sidney Jones shows how punishing the system can be. In January 2001, Mr. Jones, 45, a maintenance worker from California Crossroads, Va., took out a $4,097 personal loan from Beneficial Virginia, a subprime lender now owned by HSBC, the big bank.

He fell behind, and Beneficial sued. Mr. Jones did not appear in court. “I just thought they were going to take what I owed,” he said.

By default, Beneficial won a judgment of $4,750, plus $900 in lawyers’ fees, with the debt accruing interest at 27.55 percent until paid in full. The bank started garnishing his wages in March 2003.

Over the next six years, the bank deducted more than $10,000 from Mr. Jones’s paychecks, but he made little headway on his debt. According to a court order secured by Beneficial’s lawyers last spring, he still owed the company $3,965, a sum nearly equal to the original loan amount.

Mr. Jones, who did not graduate from high school, was baffled. “Where did all this money go that I paid them?” he said.

(Source - NYT)

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Re: interesting take on the collateral of our national debt

Chris,

It's a nasty trap!

I look in on a site called The Money Saving Expert quite frequently in the UK. This link should raise a fair few eyebrows: -

Money Saving Expert ~ Martin Lewis

http://www.moneysavingexpert.com/cards/minimum-repayments-credit-card

[Snippet]

Our aim is diametrically opposed to that of credit card companies. We need to repay debt as quickly as possible; they want to keep us perpetually repaying our debt and earning them interest. Minimum repayments are designed to do just that.

The important thing to understand is that as the minimum is a percentage of your outstanding debt, then as your debt decreases, so does the amount you repay. This means most of your repayment usually goes just to paying that month's interest, rather than actually decreasing the amount you owe.

All of this has some startling consequences when you work out the numbers.

The Example: Mr John Shortovcash

Let's take a look at Mr. John Shortovcash's debts.

  • Credit Card Interest Rate: 17.9% (pretty standard).
  • Outstanding Balance: £3,000.
  • Minimum Payment: The higher of 2% or £5.

Sadly John's strapped for cash and therefore can only afford the initial £60 minimum repayment, so the amount he repays reduces each month. As the table below shows, at first there's not much difference; at the start he pays £60, then a month later £59.60. Yet after a year he's only repaying £56 and soon the repayments plummet - meaning the debt lasts and lasts and lasts.

After Minimum Payment
1 Month £60
2 Months £59.60
12 Months £56
60 Months (5 years) £41
120 Months (10 years) £28
240 Months (20 years) £14
360 Months (30 years) £6
Based on £3,000 debt at 17.9%, with minimum payments of 2%.

The impact of this is huge!

The fact John's paying less each month means the interest he owes isn't just adding up, it's compounding at hyperspeed. In other words, there's interest on the amount owed, then there's interest on the interest, then there's interest on the interest on the interest….. I could go on, but it'd be a very long sentence, so I'll stop there. All this interest means most of his repayments don't actually pay of any of the money he owes - it just repays the interest.

Even if John never spent on the card again, and just made the minimum repayments, it'd take him a total of 40 years and 7 months to pay off and cost £6,300 in interest.

~ VF ~

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Re: The Money That Is Sold Abroad Is You ~ Stefan Molyneux

This video and my life’s work is my answer to my child.

Well, basically the film is a complaint about the massive US trade deficit without mentioning the root cause.

Who are the people who choose to consume more than they produce? Won’t they keep on voting not to pay?

 

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Re: interesting take on the collateral of our national debt

The banks are not creating money out of "thin air" as the video shows, we are backing it all up.  And to add insult to injury, the banks create money for their own investment accounts that we again back up.  

The politicians we cheer are hiding a simple fact from the people...there is no reason for a nation to borrow money...it can be created for free.  Like chattel slavery before it, it is a crime against humanity.  As we go deeper in debt, we are selling our children and future generations.

We too are committing crimes against humanity by allowing this to continue.  At least the politicians and bankers are enslaving strangers, we are giving away our families. 

Larry 

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Re: interesting take on the collateral of our national debt

It would be one thing if the money were spent in a way that would protect our future--protecting the air we breath, the land we farm,and the water we drink.

What adds insult to injury is that we are being auctioned AND our future ability to live humbly on the planet is being devastated by short-sighted, greedy policy.

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Re: interesting take on the collateral of our national debt

The only minor point I disagree with Stefan about is that, in addition to people, the government can mortgage its land and resources. 

Chris, thanks for the NYT reference.  It's a bizarre world when such a story is reported as just another news item that gets lost in the hundreds of other stories the media drowns us in everyday.

 

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Re: interesting take on the collateral of our national debt

I have been studying how our money system works for the last 28 year. I have put every possible minute of my time into this study and this presentation is one of the most nonsensical presentations regarding money that I have every seen.

 

The fact are, the government uses its taxing and borrowing power to get the dollars needed to pay interest on the funds it borrows.  Now it is true that if the government can’t get the dollars from one of the people that it wants to pay taxes, it will take that persons property.  There is no question that government does not mind using what ever force it takes, to take what ever it wants.   The government does not want you as a person the government only wants what your energies canl produce.

 

As for dollars, the only true definition of today’s dollar is purchasing power.  Not always, but most of the time the power to purchase, only from a willing seller.        

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Re: The Money That Is Sold Abroad Is You ~ Stefan Molyneux

"When a farmer gets a loan from the bank, he uses his livestock as collateral. It is the milk and meat his cows will produce in the future that he will use to pay off his loan."

Here is another thing that is simply not factual.  What is factual is that the farmer may use the milk and the meat that cows can produce to capture someone else borrowed dollars to pay the interest and to pay principle of his loan.  The farmers can't use milk of meat or anything else to pay the bank.  The only thing that the will except in payment of a loan is the dollars that banks create by writing numbers into a checking account.  With only one exception.  If the borrower can't or will not pay in the dollars the way the bank wants, the bank will then forclose on the loan and will take any and all physical things that it's lawyers and other people working for the bank can get there hands on.  

"The bank is buying a share in his cows."  Here again this statement is not factual.  The bank doesn't buy a share in the farmers cows.  By making the loan the bank gains an equity title to the cows.  That equity title gives the banker the right to take the cows if you don't make the payments on the loan, even if it is the very last payment owed.

Now I know that this may seem like I am beening just a little picky.  However it is these little same thing that lead to some really big misunderstanding about how this money system really works. 

 

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Re: interesting take on the collateral of our national debt

come on Byron...this is an effective video that might wake people up to their servitude...which you agree with.  there is no difference between selling "you" and selling "what your energies can produce" now that we've reached the point where even 100% of many people's energies will not service our obligations.

you're also giving the banking establishment a huge compliment by claiming they "do not want you as a person."  my opinion is that the real purpose of debt-based money was about power and control, i.e. wanting to control you as a person.  they could care less about a few more dollars since, as you say, they can make as many dollars for themselves as they want. 

 

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Re: interesting take on the collateral of our national debt

Strabes, the video holds forth on a simple masters and slaves stultification.

Your leaders are selling... ... YOU!!! To foreigners and anyone else who’s willing to give them a few dollars in return for the blood, sweat and toil of your future...

This is nonsense. Fact: public debt is never repaid.

The purpose of debt-based money is to access and redistribute resources and wealth now.The economic power behind a currency determines its value. Eventually debt is devaluated, always!

The master-slave picture is misleading here. The purpose of debt-based money is to give a borrower instant access to resources and values. Consume or invest the resources and values into building things: however, the rigged US financial industry is about extracting wealth now. It’s doesn’t care too much about future economic power, nor about controlling people in the future.

The dollar is a zombie because the battered economic power behind the currency determines its value.

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Re: interesting take on the collateral of our national debt
Baywork wrote:

Strabes, the video holds forth on a simple masters and slaves stultification.

Your leaders are selling... ... YOU!!! To foreigners and anyone else who’s willing to give them a few dollars in return for the blood, sweat and toil of your future...

This is nonsense. Fact: public debt is never repaid.

The purpose of debt-based money is to access and redistribute resources and wealth now.The economic power behind a currency determines its value. Eventually debt is devaluated, always!

The master-slave picture is misleading here. The purpose of debt-based money is to give a borrower instant access to resources and values. Consume or invest the resources and values into building things: however, the rigged US financial industry is about extracting wealth now. It’s doesn’t care too much about future economic power, nor about controlling people in the future.

The dollar is a zombie because the battered economic power behind the currency determines its value.

Baywork,

have a look at this, maybe the picture will become clearer ...

~ VF ~

Transcript

" The Matrix is one of the greatest metaphors ever. Machines invented to make human life easier end up enslaving humanity - this is the most common theme in dystopian science fiction.

Why is this fear so universal - so compelling? Is it because we really believe that our toaster and our notebook will end up as our mechanical overlords?

Of course not.

This is not a future that we fear, but a past that we are already living.

Supposedly, governments were invented to make human life easier and safer, but governments always end up enslaving humanity.

That which we create to "serve" us ends up ruling us.

The US government "by and for the people" now imprisons millions, takes half the national income by force, over-regulates, punishes, tortures, slaughters foreigners, invades countries, overthrows governments, imposes 700 imperialistic bases overseas, inflates the currency, and crushes future generations with massive debts.

That which we create to "serve" us ends up ruling us.

The problem with the "state as servant" thesis is that it is historically completely false, both empirically and logically.

The idea that states were voluntarily invented by citizens to enhance their own security is utterly untrue.

Before governments, in tribal times, human beings could only produce what they consumed -- there was no excess production of food or other resources. Thus, there was no point owning slaves, because the slave could not produce any excess that could be stolen by the master.

If a horse pulling a plow can only produce enough additional food to feed the horse, there is no point hunting, capturing and breaking in a horse.

However, when agricultural improvements allowed for the creation of excess crops, suddenly it became highly advantageous to own human beings.

When cows began to provide excess milk and meat, owning cows became worthwhile.

The earliest governments and empires were in fact a ruling class of slave hunters, who understood that because human beings could produce more than they consumed, they were worth hunting, capturing, breaking in - and owning.

The earliest Egyptian and Chinese empires were in reality human farms, where people were hunted, captured, domesticated and owned like any other form of livestock. Due to technological and methodological improvements, the slaves produced enough excess that the labor involved in capturing and keeping them represented only a small subset of their total productivity. The ruling class - the farmers - kept a large portion of that excess, while handing out gifts and payments to the brutalizing class - the police, slave hunters, and general sadists - and the propagandizing class - the priests, intellectuals, and artists.

This situation continued for thousands of years, until the 16-17th centuries, when again massive improvements in agricultural organization and technology created the second wave of excess productivity. The enclosure movement re-organized and consolidated farmland, resulting in 5-10 times more crops, creating a new class of industrial workers, displaced from the country and huddling in the new cities.

This enormous agricultural excess was the basis of the capital that drove the industrial revolution.

The Industrial Revolution did not arise because the ruling class wanted to free their serfs, but rather because they realized how additional "liberties" could make their livestock astoundingly more productive.

When cows are placed in very confining stalls, they beat their heads against the walls, resulting in injuries and infections. Thus farmers now give them more room -- not because they want to set their cows free, but rather because they want greater productivity and lower costs.

The next stop after "free range" is not "freedom."

The rise of state capitalism in the 19th century was actually the rise of "free range serfdom."

Additional liberties were granted to the human livestock not with the goal of setting them free, but rather with the goal of increasing their productivity.

Of course, intellectuals, artists and priests were - and are - well paid to conceal this reality.

The great problem of modern human livestock ownership is the challenge of "enthusiasm."

State capitalism only works when the entrepreneurial spirit drives creativity and productivity in the economy.

However, excess productivity always creates a larger state, and swells the ruling classes and their dependents, which eats into the motivation for additional productivity. Taxes and regulations rise, state debt (future farming) increases, and living standards slow and decay.

Depression and despair began to spread, as the reality of being owned sets in for the general population.

The solution to this is additional propaganda, antidepressant medications, superstition, wars, moral campaigns of every kind, the creation of "enemies," the inculcation of patriotism, collective fears, paranoia about "outsiders" and "immigrants," and so on.

It is essential to understand the reality of the world.

When you look at a map of the world, you are not looking at countries, but farms.

You are allowed certain liberties - limited property ownership, movement rights, freedom of association and occupation - not because your government approves of these rights in principle - since it constantly violates them - but rather because "free range livestock" is so much cheaper to own and so more productive.

It is important to understand the reality of ideologies.

State capitalism, socialism, communism, fascism, democracy - these are all livestock management approaches.

Some work well for long periods - state capitalism - and some work very badly - communism.

They all fail eventually, because it is immoral and irrational to treat human beings as livestock.

The recent growth of "freedom" in China, India and Asia is occurring because the local state farmers have upgraded their livestock management practices. They have recognized that putting the cows in a larger stall provides the rulers more milk and meat.

Rulers have also recognized that if they prevent you from fleeing the farm, you will become depressed, inert and unproductive. A serf is the most productive when he imagines he is free. Thus your rulers must provide you the illusion of freedom in order to harvest you most effectively.

Thus you are "allowed" to leave - but never to real freedom, only to another farm, because the whole world is a farm. They will prevent you from taking a lot of money, they will bury you in endless paperwork, they will restrict your right to work -- but you are "free" to leave. Due to these difficulties, very few people do leave, but the illusion of mobility is maintained. If only 1 out of 1,000 cows escapes, but the illusion of escaping significantly raises the productivity of the remaining 999, it remains a net gain for the farmer.

You are also kept on the farm through licensing. The most productive livestock are the professionals, so the rulers fit them with an electronic dog collar called a "license," which only allows them to practice their trade on their own farm.

To further create the illusion of freedom, in certain farms, the livestock are allowed to choose between a few farmers that the investors present. At best, they are given minor choices in how they are managed. They are never given the choice to shut down the farm, and be truly free.

Government schools are indoctrination pens for livestock. They train children to "love" the farm, and to fear true freedom and independence, and to attack anyone who questions the brutal reality of human ownership. Furthermore, they create jobs for the intellectuals that state propaganda so relies on.

The ridiculous contradictions of statism -- like religion -- can only be sustained through endless propaganda inflicted upon helpless children.

The idea that democracy and some sort of "social contract" justifies the brutal exercise of violent power over billions is patently ridiculous.

If you say to a slave that his ancestors "chose" slavery, and therefore he is bound by their decisions, he will simply say:

"If slavery is a choice, then I choose not to be a slave."

This is the most frightening statement for the ruling classes, which is why they train their slaves to attack anyone who dares speak it.

Statism is not a philosophy.

Statism does not originate from historical evidence or rational principles.

Statism is an ex post facto justification for human ownership.

Statism is an excuse for violence.

Statism is an ideology, and all ideologies are variations on human livestock management practices.

Religion is pimped-out superstition, designed to drug children with fears that they will endlessly pay to have "alleviated."

Nationalism is pimped-out bigotry, designed to provoke a Stockholm Syndrome in the livestock.

The opposite of superstition is not another superstition, but the truth.

The opposite of ideology is not a different ideology, but clear evidence and rational principles.

The opposite of superstition and ideology - of statism - is philosophy.

Reason and courage will set us free.

You do not have to be livestock.

Take the red pill.

Wake up.  "

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Re: interesting take on the collateral of our national debt
Baywork wrote:

 

 

This is nonsense. Fact: public debt is never repaid.

Is this made clear to all parties involved, from the outset?  If not, it is a fraudulent act.

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Re: interesting take on the collateral of our national debt

have a look at this, maybe the picture will become clearer ...

Take the red pill.

Wake up.

The brainwash about ‘us’ and ‘them’ is misleading.

We live in a credit economy: existing wealth is accessed by means of creating credit. Although, credit creates obligations to repay in future wealth. However, many obligations refer to castles in the air. As obligations refer to fictitious wealth, the obligations are debased. Slaves must deliver. On the other hand those borrowers who grab existing wealth today will mainly not deliver; the preference not to pay wealth back in its own coin is built-in.

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Re: interesting take on the collateral of our national debt
Baywork wrote:

 

 

This is nonsense. Fact: public debt is never repaid.

Is this made clear to all parties involved, from the outset?  If not, it is a fraudulent act.

Mark-
devaluation may not be a fraudulent act, as the mechanics are obvious to all parties involved;-)

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Re: interesting take on the collateral of our national debt

Baywork,

I fear we may be writing at odds with each other because we are confusing the subject ...

My thoughts to your line of discussion are in many ways lost on me in terms of what the effects are on Ma and Pa Public and their offspring. On a day to day basis, I cannot solely impose a dispassionate value. I cannot continue this discussion without first adding compassion to the effects caused by the banking system, with its corporate psychotic revelry and immorality to the bottom line of a dollar saved, which, in due course, causes human suffering and tyranny.

People have not only been born into this predefined system, but mostly are conditioned to assume that its effects are normal. The populous are heavily taxed, and set in perpetuity to live toward a lower and lower standard. Their yet to be born offspring will be imposed with an even lower standard still.

That was the inference of the standards by which growth in economy had been set, up to and including the point where the economy of the globe reached its ceiling point. The window of allotted time remaining to continue living in the old paradigm is now narrowing down much of the 'promised' future that was based upon the old system.

There isn't the possibility of a large scale debt based system growing if the resources to fund its 'cycling system' have already reached 'limits to growth' sometime during the middle of the last decade; or, if being pedantic, reached a parity in finding the resources to run it as far back as 1981.

Mathematical sophistry will not make reality any the sweeter than the horror that it already is ... 

~ VF ~

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Re: interesting take on the collateral of our national debt
baywork wrote:

This is nonsense. Fact: public debt is never repaid.

The purpose of debt-based money is to access and redistribute resources and wealth now.The economic power behind a currency determines its value. Eventually debt is devaluated, always!

The master-slave picture is misleading here. The purpose of debt-based money is to give a borrower instant access to resources and values. Consume or invest the resources and values into building things: however, the rigged US financial industry is about extracting wealth now. It’s doesn’t care too much about future economic power, nor about controlling people in the future.

I'd like to hear what you think in 20 years if you think there are no human consequences for American citizens to the global bond market.  It seems you're stuck in detached economic models that assume away real life.  Economists are soon going to learn the horrible result of assuming away the issue of debt-based money to promote their neoclassical religion. 

Of course principal is not repaid.  The creditor's claim on the underlying assets would disappear...they don't want that.  And the economy's money would disappear.  Fact:  public debt IS FINANCED, which is what creditors really care about, the constant flow of ever-increasing interest payments.  This is why the IRS is ruthless, it's why our purchasing power is so low compared to 50 years ago when 1 parent could easily support a family of 5, it's why the velocity of our lives became so ridiculous, it's why anything we want to do that doesn't generate bank credit has been devalued in our lives, it's why we are going to be placed in austerity to restructure programs so that our creditors get their finance payments regardless of the impact on American citizens, which finally is why the police state is ramping up...robocops at G20 and all the other indicators make it clear foreign creditors WILL be paid. 

The purpose of debt-based money is NOT just to give the borrower instant access to value.  That could be done with many forms of money, including sovereign US money.  The purpose of debt-based money is to centralize power and control in the system, make people work for the creditors and funnel wealth to them, and centralize assets/resources over time.  But of course economists have always assumed away the real Machiavellian issues that drive human society, so people who only look at economics will always miss the real issues. Economics explains how the machine works (but of course it doesn't even do that since it ignores the issue of debt-based money).  It fails to look beyond the machine at who has power and control to run it. 

Having said all that, folks I didn't put this video up because it is a technically accurate analytical piece.  I said it's an "interesting take."  It's a marketing message.  And it's darn effective. 

 

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Re: interesting take on the collateral of our national debt

VF,
let’s separate for a second the amount of wealth a nation produces, the amount of wealth a nation consumes, and the numbers expressing the obligations a nation owns to its domestic and foreign creditors. The videos suggest that the obligations imply debt slavery.

My points are:

National debt is always rolled over and denominated, but not repaid.

The amount of capable debt service (interest only) is tied to economic power. This ‘slavery lever’ is pretty much fixed, excess taxation cannot improve debt service to the creditors as it wrecks the economic base. If the nominal debt service exceeds the economic capabilities devaluation taxation kicks in.

So what’s the bigger problem? Debt slavery or debased claims on economic activity? How can the retiring babyboomers vote for debt slavery?

 

PS: I do agree that the US babyboomers generation faces a horror slump in their living standards. They got used to consume more than they produce. They were happy to exploit the economic powerhouse the US used to be. All the benefits and leverage of holding the world’s reserve currency will vanish as a large part of the economic powerhouse that established the reserve currency status was replaced by a non value adding destructive and wealth sucking financial industry. And for the record, not so long ago, domestic financial suicide terrorists had the nerve to enforce the replacement of worthless private debt with public debt. There was no revolt.

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Baywork
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Joined: May 3 2009
Posts: 85
Re: interesting take on the collateral of our national debt

This is why the IRS is ruthless, it's why our purchasing power is so low compared to 50 years ago when 1 parent could easily support a family of 5, it's why the velocity of our lives became so ridiculous, it's why anything we want to do that doesn't generate bank credit has been devalued in our lives, it's why we are going to be placed in austerity to restructure programs so that our creditors get their finance payments regardless of the impact on American citizens, which finally is why the police state is ramping up...robocops at G20 and all the other indicators make it clear foreign creditors WILL be paid.

Strabes,
can you enforce good debt service, i.e. economic prosperity, with robocops?
Why do you distinguish between foreign and domestic creditors? If you own debt service to ?foreign? creditors, doesn’t that mean that you sucked out foreign existing wealth beforehand?

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strabes
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Posts: 1032
Re: interesting take on the collateral of our national debt

again you're looking only at economics.  central bank debt is not so much about spreadsheets and math as much as it is about power and control.  if one thinks the elite banking establishment is interested in economic prosperity for others, you're in for a surprise over the next several years.  the central bank debt machine was a way to fuel capital growth, material growth, etc. while an elite monopoly could still maintain control.  now that the machine has run its course, we'll shift to a new form of control.

I distinguished between foreign and domestic because I thought you said that nations basically ignore their foreign obligations.  on a higher level, it's incorrect to view this as a nation vs. nation issue...it should be viewed as senior global creditors working together vs. the nations and the people.

Quote:

doesn’t that mean that you sucked out foreign existing wealth beforehand?

no.

it's propaganda that banks loan existing wealth.  they create claims on future wealth from the people willing to sign up for debt. 

 

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Baywork
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Re: interesting take on the collateral of our national debt
strabes wrote:

  if one thinks the elite banking establishment is interested in economic prosperity for others, you're in for a surprise over the next several years.  the central bank debt machine was a way to fuel capital growth, material growth, etc. while an elite monopoly could still maintain control.  now that the machine has run its course, we'll shift to a new form of control.

Strabes,
the central bank debt machine is the machine of the banks. To make things worse, banks are allowed to carry out own business and create credit for non value-creating financial ‘investments’. To make things detestable, banks were finally allowed to push putrid debt to the public. That’s close to giving them the right to throw out dud notes. I think I clearly expressed that money creation is not tied to economic prosperity for others. In fact, I do think that the representation of the people and the people themselves were insane when they handed over the grant to create money without strongly tying this grant to service common weal.

strabes wrote:
Quote:

doesn’t that mean that you sucked out foreign existing wealth beforehand?

no.

If a nation accumulates a trade deficit, it means that other nations sell their efforts and values below value. Sounds like a wealth transfer to me.

strabes wrote:

it's propaganda that banks loan existing wealth.  they create claims on future wealth from the people willing to sign up for debt. 

 

Banks do not loan existing wealth. They do grant access to existing wealth to the borrower and demand interest from the borrower. They couldn’t care less if the interest is paid from value creation or money devaluation. In either case they get their share.

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Baywork
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Posts: 85
Re: interesting take on the collateral of our national debt
strabes wrote:

while an elite monopoly could still maintain control.  now that the machine has run its course, we'll shift to a new form of control.

Strabes, I forgot - it is not about a monopoly that could still maintain control. It is about dumb people who accept other indescribable blithering idiots claiming doing god’s work. Happy Easter!

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hucklejohn
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Posts: 281
Re: interesting take on the collateral of our national debt

Thanks, Strabes, for posting this excellent (in my view) video!

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Byron Dale
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Posts: 40
Re: interesting take on the collateral of our national debt

Strabes

 I hope and wish the video would wake people up to the fact that most all of us live under financial servitude.  However that servitude doesn’t come from anyone selling anyone to somebody. 

 The servitude comes from the fact that because of our debt based interest bearing money, issued only by the banking system, the banking system gets a monetary cut of almost everything everyone does.  It is clear that many politicians have sold themselves for the benefits that get from the banking system.

 There is a very big difference between someone selling you, as a person, to someone that would not have any use for you and getting a monetary benefit from what you do.

 I know from person experience that the banking system does not care about you as a person or the value of your personal property as long as you just go will the flow.  It is only when you do something that they perceive would be a threat to what they are doing that the banking system takes a real personal interest in you.  

 I don’t believe that when fractional banking first got started it was about power or control; it was just about doing ever well financially.  But as it grew and the people getting the financially benefit began to see how much power and control the loaning of money at interest gave to them, then it began to be all about power and control.  Also as you yourself have said that once they got a good taste of power, control and greed.  It seems that they all develop an ever growing appetite for more power, more control and the buying power of more and more money.  They do care about more dollars because it is the buying power of the money that gives them the power and the control.     

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goes211
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Posts: 1114
Re: interesting take on the collateral of our national debt

Byron,

I largely agree with your post.  You may even be right about fractional banking initially not being about power or control.  I also believe that many of our representatives initially might have gone to Washington with good intentions.  How would your monetary proposals keep Washington from becoming even more corrupt than it is now?

After all as Lord Action said:

Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely

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strabes
Status: Diamond Member (Offline)
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Posts: 1032
Re: interesting take on the collateral of our national debt

Byron, we shouldn't be having this debate because you have precisely described ownership from a financial institution's perspective.  In other words, we agree totally. 

I'm not sure what definition of people ownership you're using, apparently you think it means caring about the people you own, which is very odd.  Ownership from a financial perspective simply means having fiduciary control of an asset and therefore owning the income or value that the asset creates. Financial control of an asset = ownership of that asset.  That's the textbook definition Wall St uses.  And it's the definition the BOC and BOJ are using as they buy up our debt.

Of course financial ownership also gives the owner the right to strip the asset, restructure it, scrap it if it fails to produce the income.  That's the wildcard in this big poker game being played by the central banks.  How will we be stripped, restructured, scrapped by the govt that is now financially controlled (owned) by mega financial institutions?  We've already been stripped (TARP, TALF, bailouts, etc).  What's next?  Hmm.

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Thomas Hedin
Status: Platinum Member (Offline)
Joined: Jan 28 2009
Posts: 815
Re: interesting take on the collateral of our national debt

Financial control of an asset = ownership of that asset.

Where on the books of the banks do they put down a person as an asset of the bank?

I've done a fair share of research on this and basically the only thing they put down for assetts is currency, promisorry notes of business, consumer and other customers, mortgages on real estate, and Government and other securities.

Basically to me it looks like the only thing(s) banks can purchase equity in is limited, and does not include buying and selling of human beings.

Maybe I'm confused as to where this topic is going, and my intent is not to annoy or aggrovate anyone, I just want to understand this better.

Thank you for all the help.

Would you consider there to be a difference between equity rights user rights?

 

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