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alxa's picture
Status: Member (Offline)
Joined: Sep 29 2008
Posts: 2

IMPENDING ECONOMIC DOOM AND SPIRITUALITY  I have thoroughly enjoyed learning from his crash course. I fully agree that man has been too greedy and has been unmindfully fine-grading all available resources from the 1800s (industrial revolution). Now it seems the harm is done already. The inevitable end appears to be a return to the madieval times when wealth was symbolised by cattle and farms!!  

The 80-20 rule (Pareto) says that 20% of the world's people have done all the damage that the remaining 80% suffer from. This is a huge travesty of justice, though. Any comments on this?


Don't you hear the prescient words of nineteenth century poets Wordsworth and Coleridge echoing through our psyche? The timing was immaculate and portentous - the inevitable industrial revolution was taking shape in England and they were protesting!! Now everything fits into place. If only the world had listened then!! We just treated them as simple poets and relegated Wordsworth to the post of Poet Laureate and to the high-school text books; we should have heeded his lament, and abandoned industrialization altogether!!


Is there a remedy? Is the inevitable on us? I, for one, would want to think that there just may be some remedy at hand.


For the economic and social prescriptions, I go back in time to Prophet Mohammed and Budha.


Firstly, the wisdom of Islamic banking system that prohibits interest suddenly comes out as a gem of an economic theory!! If interest is prohibited, the exponential debt growth would not happen. Besides, the current accounting practice of letting intangibles like derivatives to be treated as assets must be immediately discontinued. This will put a stop to spiraling debts and all debts will be then related to only tangible and recoverable assets.


Secondly, the two-and-half-millennium old Buddhist wisdom of 'Middle Path'- meaning not too abstemious, not too luxurious- is a wonderful lesson for man. What this means in terms of policy is that the per capita energy consumption of man must be capped at 2000 or 3000 KWH (energy units) per annum. This would mean immediate trouble to the Americans, presently gobbling up 13000 units per year, who are then required to scale down. But it would also mean good news to the 80% innocent people in Africa and Asia who can scale up from 200 or 300 units per annum to 3000. There is a second lesson from Buddhism which is equally important, called 'ahimsa' or non-violence. In terms of policy, shall I say, the nuclear weapons state would all destroy their nuclear weapons, and then make the hype about nuclear non-proliferation a lot more meaningful? As a next step, with the nuclear weapons gone, will all governments of the world disband their entire military forces and cut off their defense spending altogether? That still leaves the governments with the police forces to combat terrorism, thefts, violence, etc.  


On the technical side, I think I have some good news about the energy position. Dr. Martenson has not considered thorium based nuclear power as future source of energy. Thorium is plentiful or earth to sustain life for another couple of centuries until fusion technology is perfected, which will be an unlimited source of energy (just like the stars). The flip side is that we do not get plastics, paints, etc. like from oil, but we will also be sans the green house gases!! Man can certainly learn to abandon plastic, paints and other synthetic oil derivatives for the sake of his life!!


I am basing these optimistic thoughts on the 'given' that people would implement the above changes in economic and social policies. But as Martenson frequently says, 'this time too history can't be different'. If at all there is scope for thorium or hydrogen fusion, people would continue the present economic and sociological way of life while trying to fine-grade these sources also. If that happens, the end is once again catastrophe.


The moral seems to be this- this is taken from Christianity: the most important rule for man is to 'love your neighbour as oneself'. Capitalism is basically about beating and exploiting your neighbour and is not consistent with the 'most important rule'. It must be abandoned. If the suggested economic and social policies are implemented, we would at once be embracing Christ also. For the time being though, even the most arduous Christians are shouting 'Christianity', while themselves working in pyramids set up by the opposite of its principles!!  Little wonder that the idea of forced and armed equalization occurred to famous Jews- Marx and Engles- in the nineteenth century!!

cwixom's picture
Status: Bronze Member (Offline)
Joined: Aug 17 2008
Posts: 44
Ideal vs real

There is nothing wrong with idealism as long as it doesn't make you stupid too.  To get to where you are suggesting everyone, and I do mean everyone, must come to the same state of being with respect to their morals and attitudes and they must do so as a matter of their own volition.  Altruism must be rampant and the main driver of all actions.  You must be able to trust everyone.  


Such social experiments have been tried on many scales throughout the ages.  They almost always fail outright because of an imperfect set of p rinciples that are followed or just die on the vine as those who have adopted the philosophy can not encourage sufficient numbers of others to adopt it.  When it has been implemented by force (that is, legislation or worse) it is already doomed because it must use power to enforce it (recall your police force needed) and that power eventually and inevitably corrupts the wielder of it.  It is much harder and more complex than you can imagine and your simple presentation makes me think you are young and rather naïve about human nature and the power of greed and fear. 


Do not give up hope of achieving the dream of such a society; just don’t forget the nature of the beast you are trying to change.  Take a healthy dose of reality before you start thinking that getting everyone into your camp will be easy.  They will only become what you want when the current system has failed in a far more catastrophic way than has ever been seen in the past few millennia and the death of billions gets the remaining few to realize that there must be a better way.  

joe2baba's picture
Status: Martenson Brigade Member (Offline)
Joined: Jun 17 2008
Posts: 807

it is interesting to see mention of spirituality on this site

meher baba who declared himself to be the avatar--the christ, buddha and mohammed come again spoke about the destruction of the world. some of you may remember him. he was known for saying "dont worry be happy" ha sounds good to me. probably his most famous follower is pete townsend of the who. tommy was actually dedicated to baba.

meher baba was deeply connected to the oil industry. one of his disciples was ivy duce who was the murshida of sufism reoriented in walnut creek ca. her husband was terry duce a vice president with standard oil also of aramco. another of his disciples was lud dimpfl who was an executive with chevron and another don stevens was also an exec with standard

baba told ivy to tell terry to hold the oil of arabia for america. this was in the early to mid fifties. right about the time of hubbert.

baba also said that russia held the key to the worlds destruction. i found this particularly interesting since he said this in the forties when it was not russia but the soviet union.

and finally he said three quarters of the world would be destroyed and out of that destruction a new humanity would emerge this "humanity will attain to a new mode of being and life through the free and unhampered interplay from heart to heart."

if anyone is interested in knowing more you can go to

so for me i remain ever hopeful

alxa's picture
Status: Member (Offline)
Joined: Sep 29 2008
Posts: 2
Extreme pessimism Vs Realism

There are some doom sayers who want to see that everything always goes wrong. The author seams to condone fictitious asset derivatives and gobbling up huge amounts of energy. I can make a guess that he is part of the system that is failing now. For people like him, it is fiendishly better to play on until the sure doom (death of billions) really arrives. I am old enough to understand that criminals do not correct themselves unless a gun is pointed at their heads. For the time being, though, there are not many authorities who can hold that gun, as most governments themselves are part of the system.

 To quote Martenson again, 'some theories will be ridiculed first, until being accepted as obvious'. I have addressed many of the problems highlighted in Martenson's presentation, namely, money creation from thin air (interest and fictitious leveraging through derivatives leading to widening debts), non-self liquidating debts (wars) and new forms of energy (thorium, fusion). What is more, some of the governments worldwide are using a few of the above principles in banking.

 But I am sure these points will fall on deaf ears. Man is basically greedy and he can't compromise extreme wealth even if it means sure doom. This is like the prophetic call to Ninevah (bible). If the most affluent societies do not heed the call of reason, they will suffer ultimate doom. It is very clear from the discussions going on in this site that everyone is talking about collapse of dollars, not other currencies. People are discussing how to shore up the reserves in Australia! So the modern Ninevah is USA!! If anyone sits up and takes action, so much the better!

 I didn't know that being mature implies having to neglect the obvious and having to ghoulishly wait until billions die to start acting.



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