Hydrogen better yet HHO

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bagrman's picture
bagrman
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Hydrogen better yet HHO

As we all know, our present way of life and those of almost everyone else on the planet relies on oil. We can no more park our petroleum fueled vehicles, tractors and trucks and wait for something to take petro's place. But there is something that I have been working on and 1000s of others also with a great deal of success, it's HHO, cracked water. Hydrogen when brought up on conversation brings about thoughts of large tanks and the Hindenburg. Well HHO is used as it's made and there is no storage. All vehicles are over fueled by 30-50% easily, what HHO does is help you burn all of the fuel that is going into the motor and actually allows you to lean the motor back to cut consumption. Noone has gotten to a full blown running on water car yet but they are working on it, and the underground tinkers are converting cars and trucks as you read this.
Please don't believe me, go to www.mindstrain.com and read for yourself , this is only one mans effort to help with our addiction to oil.
This could also help with the saving of natural gas. Having a generator inline, when gas is called for you would tap the energy in your solar charged batteries to run the generator and augment the gas going to the appliance. This isn't taking the place of all the gas used but it would slow down consumption. Yes you could burn all HHO to cook or heat with but I don't think that it would be a complete zero lose of energy converting sunlight to electricity to gas to heat. Someone smarter then I can figure that one out.
You can also go to youtube and search for HHO generator and you'll see the mass of people working on this. The good thing about this technology is that it's open source, everyone is sharing their ideas on what works and doesn't.
Latr
Chris

Liberator's picture
Liberator
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Posts: 22
Re: Hydrogen better yet HHO

If I understand this, electricity from the vehicle battery (charged of course by engine power) is used to break water into HHO, which is then fed to the carburator to take the place of some or all of the gasoline. So there is an energy exchange.

How does the energy required to hydrolize the water compare to the energy derived in the cylinder?

I've noticed that this fundamental question is never addressed in the promo sites for this idea, which raises suspicions. The closest they come are subjective and unverifiable claims of "X% better mpg"

bearing01's picture
bearing01
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Posts: 153
Re: Hydrogen better yet HHO

A better question is "where does the battery get its energy from".

The internal combustion engine is around 30% efficient.  Meaning that if you have a 100 Watt or 100 hp of fuel energy then you only get 30hp at the engine's crankshaft.  The rest is lost to heat out the exhaust pipe, radiator and surroundings.  Of that generated 30% you then have to use some of that energy/power to turn an alternator which is maybe 60% efficient.  That alternator then recharges the battery. THis means that a car can't generate its own hydrogen to run itself.  That would be a perpetual motion machine which is impossible.  The energy must come from outside.

A far better solution is to get rid of the internal combustion engine all together and replace it with an electric motor, which is far more efficient than 30%.  Take the hydrogen and make a fuel cell out of it.  To have a bottle of compressed hydrogen gas is very unfeasible.  To have a bottle of liquid hydrogen you need to cool it to somewhere around -270'C and it takes energy to run that refrigerator/freezer.  However, the Hydrogen can be trapped in chemical liquid form when making a fuel cell (which is basically a battery).  That then can run the car's electric motor.

The real problem with Hydrogen is that it is not a source of energy.  It is a fuel you must produce from some other form of energy.  It is an energy currency.  You need to generate electricity by Hydro-turbine, nuclear, solar, wind or burning coal to generate the electricity.  The energy of that electricity then can break down the water into hydrogen & oxygen, allowing you to capture the hydrogen.  The energy added during electrolysis to separate the two will then be given back when the hydrogen & oxygen recombine inside either the fuel cell or combustion engine.  This energy release is what is used to turn the motor or engine.  The problem with electrolysis is that it, along with other forms of hydrogen generation, is not an efficient process.  You put in a dollar's worth of electricity but only get out maybe 60 cents worth of hydrogen energy.  During electrolysis, some energy is lost to heat and also the fuel cell voltage that is provided is not equal to the voltage required to generate the electricity.  At the end of the day, you don't get as much hydrogen energy out as what you put in to create it.  

Today, hydrogen is mainly produced in abundance for the creation of fertilizer.  They make that hydrogen from natural gas, which is mainly Methane (or CH4).

bearing01's picture
bearing01
Status: Silver Member (Offline)
Joined: Sep 7 2008
Posts: 153
Re: Hydrogen better yet HHO
Another note is that the internal combustion today is designed for either Diesel fuel or Gasoline.  Much of the efficiency is limited to the anti-knock index (tendency to self ignite / explode when compressed) of the fuel and therefore the engine has top be made with lower compression ratio and less efficiency.  If one were to redesign an engine solely for hydrogen, they could make it more efficient than 30%.  THat is unlikely because the transition to hydrogen, from gasoline, would require an abundance of hydrogen refueling sources.  Because that doesn't exist, the engines of today have to be gasoline capable.
gyrogearloose's picture
gyrogearloose
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Joined: Sep 8 2008
Posts: 549
Re: Hydrogen better yet HHO

[quote=bagrman] Someone smarter then I can figure that one out. You can also go to youtube and search for HHO generator and you'll see the mass of people working on this.  [/quote]

 

Someone smarter than you has already figured it out.

 

IT DOES NOT WORK

 

There are VERY few Laws in science ,

The 3 Laws of thermodynamic mean that pretty much everything you believe about HHO is based on poor experimentation by people who don’t understand the difference between subjective vs objective experimentation.

 

Masses of people working on it in youtube does not bypass the laws of thermodynamics.

 

[quote=bagrman] it's open source, everyone is sharing their ideas on what works and doesn't. Latr Chris [/quote]

For some strange reason if it does not work they either will just quietly drop it, or carry on thinking “I must need to change XXXX and then it will work”

 

 

 

Liberator's picture
Liberator
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Joined: Oct 13 2008
Posts: 22
Re: Hydrogen better yet HHO

Thank you, gyrogearloose. It's rather as I feared.

In fact, if the energy derived from burning HHO exceeded the energy required to produce it from water, there would be no need for gasoline or diesel (once the engineering kinks had been ironed out) and the HHO engine would be a source of infinite energy, Chris' concerns expressed in Chapter 17 would be fully answered, and humanity's future bright indeed.

I happen to think that future is indeed bright, and that for all practical purposes available energy is infinite - but that it will take a little work to get it harnessed. But not, alas, by the HHO method.

 

 

 

EndGamePlayer's picture
EndGamePlayer
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Joined: Sep 2 2008
Posts: 546
Re: Hydrogen better yet HHO

Here's the low down - some one did figure this out in the 70s. They made postal vehicles that ran on hydrogen. Here's the problem - WATER RUSTS METAL. 99% of the vehicles rusted out in 6 months. The H molecule corrodes when burned. It does well in PEM designed batteries since it is SOOOO BIG you can strip off the electron.

So, the next step - build an engine using ceramic (Mitzubishi  may have been the one?). But go with a rotary engine since you have more burn space and the ceramics are hard to manage tight engine tolerances in manufacturing. Unfortunately, not even the rotary engine can keep from pitting when burning H

The problem of "abundant H" is solved. They can filter it out of water with metal alloys and no external energy is needed. O sticks to the metal alloy and H exists as gas - sweet burnable gas! . . It's an engine material dilema last I read. 

Where do you get H? Turn on your faucet.

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