How bad will it get if/when tshtf??

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Retha's picture
Retha
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How bad will it get if/when tshtf??

Anyone really wonder what would happen to society if the economy collapses or war is brought close to home...Black Friday behaviour is telling.  This is a sad state for a supposedly season of 'giving'.  Just imagine...if/when tshtf ...reminds me of the extreme importance to quickly move forward on my security & safety preparations.  imho 

"What does it say about American consumers when they are willing to fight like crazed animals just to save a few bucks on cheap plastic crap made in China?"

"If Americans will literally fight each other over saving 20 bucks, what is going to happen someday when millions of them don't know where their next meal is going to come from?"

theeconomiccollapseblog.com/archives/black-friday-violence-worse-than-ever-as-american-consumers-fight-over-deals-like-crazed-animals

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shopping frenzy or consciousness - it's our choice

Retha,

Here's a sexist statement.  The most dangerous species alive on the planet is a female in a shopping frenzy.;-)  I remember once as a very young child being taken around NYC by my mother while she was shopping.  There happened to be some type of sale in the store we were in and women flocked to it like mosquitoes to blood.  I remember being pounded in the head by swinging and flailing purses until I finally yelled at one of the women and my mother got me out of there.  I've been in riots and this situation was coming close to one.

Flash forward almost 40 years.  We were in the pleasant little town we live in now and we attended a bike swap.  People brought in their used bikes to be sold (with a percentage given to charity) and the bikes were stored an enclosed sales area.  At an appointed time, they opened the area and the public flooded in to buy these used bikes at rock bottom prices.  I spied one interesting looking bike off in the corner.  When the barricades were lifted, I strolled towards the bike.  A woman rushed towards the same bike, locked in on it like a Hellfire missile.  To make sure she got it, as she rushed past me, she shoved me to one side.  At the time, I was probably at the peak of my training, stood 6'2" and weighed 232 lbs. of solid muscle.  People tell me I can be an imposing looking individual but this woman was in the midst of a feeding frenzy as you could tell by the wild look in her eyes.  I was dumbfounded.  She rushed up to the bike, grabbed it, and gave me a look like, "You'll have to kill me to pry it out of my greedy, consumer-obsessed little hands."  I calmly said to her, "If you wanted it that much, all you had to do was ask."  She averted her eyes and scurried away, avariciously clutching the bike, like a furtive rodent that had just found a choice morsel in a famine plagued landscape.

The long and the short of it is that people always have been like this, they always will be like this, and I don't lose a minute of sleep worrying about it.  I'm prepared and I'll deal with it, if and when it ever comes to manifest.

As I've said many times in the past though, what we are facing globally is not an economic, financial, political, or resource based event.  It's a spiritual event and consciousness or lack thereof that will turn this event one way or another.  If we manifest fear in our thoughts and actions, we'll get a situation that will give us plenty of opportunity to work through those fears.  I, for one, would prefer not to go that route.  That's all that can be said on that issue without getting into forbidden territory.  There are those, however, who are approaching this event from the opposite perspective.  I interacted with one this past week and there's much to be said for that approach. 

 

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 Probably pretty bad, I

 Probably pretty bad, I suspect. I currently live in NYC (becuase of my job, weighing options for what to do about that). Hurricaine Irene was very illustrative. I recall seeing on the news the Friday night before it hit (which was a Saturday) there was an interview with a woman who stopped by a store to buy food- perhaps she needed baby food or formula, I don't recall exactly, but she did have a small child. She was extemely indignant that the store had run out of whatever it was she went for. She had stopped by on her way home from work. "What am I supposed to do?" she lamented, citing the fact that she has a small child. I was simultanously stunned and not at all surprised. After all, dire predictions as to how bad the hurricane would be had been all over the news for DAYS. Evacuations had been orderd. It was WELL PUBLICIZED that the subways would be shut down. Yet it didn't occur to this woman to do any shopping in the days before. Fortunately, we didn't have to find out what someone like her would do if the hurricane had been as bad as predictied.

I feel a deep sense of evil descending on NYC. Things have deteroriated on the short time I have lived here. I can only imagine how bad it might get if/hwhen things really do become shtf. My livelihood is here for now, so I stay and try to enjoy the good parts of it. But I also spend time planning how- and under what circumstances- I will high tail it out of here. This is NOT a place anybody wants to be if true riots break out. 

Retha, I think you are right. If people will go to SoHo will break down the doors and loot a hip clothing store (becuase there was confusion over the early black friday opening time) just for presents, how much more will they do to obtain food?

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Retha
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Yes :)

 It is a sad state.  

ao...lol I remember those days of the female shopping frenzy...times have certainly changed by adding the male to the melting pot.  You have a tremendous talent for descriptive writing!  Great story!    'like a furtive rodent that had just found a choice morsel in a famine plagued landscape'  I wholeheartedly agree with you that the changes coming entail more than economic, political, etc.  I can almost feel it in the air and of late found myself drawn to exploring spiritual/consciousness ideas more than usual.

poisonivy...yes, it is amazing that some people don't plan ahead, even with the dire warnings of possible outcomes.  I have been lucky enough to have horror stories shared by grandparents who survived hurricane Camille, Carla & others over the years, and my own experiences with Alicia and Allison.  Living close to the Texas coast, we have always been prepared for a few days of no power, no access to food or water, we have extra plywood/tarps/chainsaws and such in the event of trees fall on the house.  I always prided myself for 'being prepared'.  In 2005 after Katrina obliterated the northern Gulf Coast, Hurricane Rita was heading our way.  If you don't recall, it was a Cat 5 storm heading straight for Galveston.  Of course, the news people instilled the fear of armaggedon constantly and there was a tremendous panic by millions in the potential path of the storm.  For 2 weeks, we watched it coming, watched it grow larger and larger.  We were ready 10 or so days before it was supposed to hit.  A storm that large is much more dangerous than a Cat 2 or 3.  Anyway, the storm was supposed to make landfall on Friday.  That Monday, even though I had plenty of batteries, I decided to head to the store to get a few more, just in case.  We are about 70 miles from the coast, so if we have any problem here, it will be downed trees and no power.  We arrived at the local grocery store to find nothing!  All of the shelves were cleared.  There was nothing left!  I stood there with my son laughing...it was funny, but in a creepy way.  It was a good thing that we are planners!  There was nothing in the store!  And the others in the store were wandering around with a look in their eyes...a look of panic.  

Then, on Wednesday, I decided to go to my office to pick up the servers & other important items just in case.  The office I worked at was close to the airport and it was a warehouse type building.  If the storm hit as a Cat 4 or 5, the building was going to be history.  Well, this was the same day that evacuations were ordered for the entire Texas coast!  I got to the office around 8 and loaded my car up.  At 10, I headed back home.  My commute at the time was about 35 or 40 minutes.  It took me 6 hours to get home.  The panic that ensued on the roadways was absolutely unbelievable.  Cars running cars off the road, people screaming out of car windows, running out of gas, waiving weapons, it was horrendous.  The stories on the national news painted a bad picture, but it was worse than shown.  It was awful.  The storm turned at the last minute... we just got a bit of rain and a couple of days without power.  Then they turned their anger to the media for hyping the storm too much, instead of evaluating their own situations and preparing accordingly.  

The next year, we installed a full house generator and I started, with dedication, 'stocking up' our pantry.  I decided that if something really bad happened, whatever it could be, that I would be VERY prepared! Not for just a few days.  Our decision to install the generator paid off in 2008, when Hurricane Ike came through and knocked out power in our area for 18 days.  In Houston and surrounding areas that were not prepared, people were standing in government lines waiting for water & food.  Some did come together, however, the food pantry, donations and people helping others were seen as well.  The majority, unprepared, were standing with their hand out, complaining of slow service.  A sad state indeed.

 

 

 

 

  

 

 

No_Fiat's picture
No_Fiat
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 I feel that it is not how

 I feel that it is not how bad it will get, but how many will be affected. During the great depression 24% were financially devastated the number now appears to be between 30%-35%. That means that approximately 1 in 3 will be greatly affected and left to there own resources. And I foresee no solutions in sight due to what our goverment is willing and not willing to do.

Full Moon's picture
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some thoughts

  I think the truth of what people really are will come out .   Most people Assume that there is good in the heart of every person   but I think  true colors will come out .  And If the  _ _ _ _  spirit of love is removed and peoples conscience  has been oppressed   there will be ugliness that is only hard to imagine .   People like to think in bad times they will not resort to all sorts of evilness to survive  .  Over and over  we are amazed at what is happening even now  on the nightly news . Theft ,murder ,rape .parents killing their own babies !  

Families are being destroyed and we are not able to teach the little one while their hearts are tender .  in fact the Govt.  are trying to take away the little ones from their mommas as early as possible and put them in situations where they can mold them into not thinking but reacting in their own self interest .  

  All will be effected in one way or another .        We can prepare  the best we know how for physical needs,  But I think emotional and spiritually we are very weak and needs to be addressed individually and in each home .     We need to purpose in our hearts and lives to think about what is right  and do it even if all else around us is crumbling .   We need to seek  to see if we are lukewarm in our belief   or does it fill us .  Do we stop to take in the Golry all around us and breath it in ?

  Last week I read accouts of nurses in the civil war .. How horrible the pain and agony . This week I read of  accounts of  how to take care of a loved one for home buriel .  This is something we in America have given over to others  as an unpleasant task . I think it has removed from us the personal side of the journey .  I was very nervous to have my 16 YO  daughter have to go threw her first death of some one at the care home where she works . But now that she came through it fine  Having to deal with it in a less emotionally attached situation may be easier.for her first time .   She told me that so many people are put there because they are and inconvience to their family anyway  and that it made her feel good to stay with this person in their final hours befor passing instead of letting them pass alone .

   Mostly I think we are going to find ourselves in situations we are not accustom too or comfortable with .  We are going to be tested .

 In these times and  end will we be found faithful ?

 FM 

   I am not asking anyone to agree or disagree   just pondering in my own  heart .

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sorry

 it posted before I could  check spelling  and such .   Hope you get the gist .

Tim_P's picture
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 My guess is that how bad

 My guess is that how bad it gets will depend on where you live.  If you are in an area of the country that still values self sufficiency, you'll probably see less looting and more cooperation.  If you are in an area like LA or Chicago, I think you could see some rough times, riots, looting and heavy gang activity.  When I hear of the dispicable behaviour displayed on black Friday, I too think that these same people would go much further if it were the last case of canned corn that was to be had.

Tim

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I will get bad, but...

Yes, it will get bad. And yes, how bad depends on a lot, and how you survive it depends on a lot. Fortune favors the bold, but upon closer inspection, history points out that Fortune favors most the prepared. Many here are speaking of laying in stores of supplies, and I see people speaking of defending themselves against gangs, but I've not seen anyone speak of forming aliances BEFORE SHTF. The time to be striking treaties with a potential adversary is not when they're beating down your door to steal your groceries.

Talk to friends and especially neighbors, mention your concerns for what might be happening, and without disclosing how much you have done to prepare, find out if THEY have done anything to prepare, if they've considered joining up with other neighbors in a cooperative effort to fend off looters and such, if they have any ideas for survival, etc., and if they sound sensible, enter into some sort of informal commitment with them, even if it's merely to pick a meeting place for dealing with the first bad news and agreeing to help watch each other's homes if someone has to venture out for something. Don't swap keys, alarm codes, etc., because they may steal you blind the first time you leave, but anything you can find out, organize, or get commitments to before things get bad will work in your favor as long as you are vigilant about vetting those you include.

AWR's picture
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 This was a real eye-opener

 This was a real eye-opener as to how bad things could get in a full-blown SHTF scenario:

http://www.tacticalintelligence.net/blog/shtf-survival-qa-a-first-hand-account.htm

"Really bad" doesn't do it justice

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Tim_P wrote:  My guess is
Tim_P wrote:

 My guess is that how bad it gets will depend on where you live.  If you are in an area of the country that still values self sufficiency, you'll probably see less looting and more cooperation.  If you are in an area like LA or Chicago, I think you could see some rough times, riots, looting and heavy gang activity.  When I hear of the dispicable behaviour displayed on black Friday, I too think that these same people would go much further if it were the last case of canned corn that was to be had.

Tim

Tim,

Your "guess"  is the same as mine.  The outcome will be a function of population density.  Highly populated areas will (in general) experience the most turmoil, while rural areas will do better.  My concern is that there will be a general migration towards rural areas in search of safety.  What will happen then?

Nate

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news flash...

news flash...

If there really is a financial collapse of great size and duration all hell we break loose in America.  We are not nearly as educated as we once were.  I recently looked at the entrance exam for Harvard in 1899 and there is no way I could have passed it and I am an engineer.  The languages alone would have stopped me.  You needed to know 3 languages.  Education definitely reduces violence.  Educated people attempt to reason through their problems.  The uneducated turn to violence.  The high school drop out rates in urban areas is 50%.  Half of America lives in dependency to the government.  If the government stops functioning these people will become desperate in short order.  Many of them will resort to violence.  Violence is a way of life in many places in America.  America has lost its moral standing.  All kinds of stuff goes on now that did not happen say 50 years ago.  We are undisciplined, lazy, uneducated, spoiled, and violent.  If the class of dependency does not get its government money it is going to get really crazy.  Decent people will be driven from the cities into the country.  These people will be unprepared and desperate.  Most people in America have no idea what is going on with the economy.  I never ceased to be amazed by that.  Most of them do not even know what you are even talking about.  Critical thinking skills are few and far between.  It is all bad.  We are not the country we used to be.  We have fallen so far.

If there is a financial crisis and you live in a city you need to make a plan.  You are going to need a vehicle.  You are going to need a place to go.  You are going to need enough fuel to get there.  You are going to need a way to defend against people who may try to take your vehicle.  You are going to need to leave before civil disturbances become such that you will not be able to leave.  If the military is being deployed it may be too late.

Hopefully it does not disintegrate to this type of low level but you never know.  I am preparing for the worse and hoping for the best.

 

No_Fiat's picture
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Example of when TSHTF

Hyper inflation during the Weimer Republic - A man leaves his wheelbarrow of money outside the bakery - goes in to get some bread - comes back out to find that someone stole the wheelbarrow, but left his money on the sidewalk!  Moral safe guard your wheelbarrow and show compassion for the less priviledged.

It is interesting how the inflation was stopped. A new currency was created that was pegged to the Gold Standard. The old Currency could be traded in for the New Currency. At a ratio of 1 Billion (unbacked) to 1!!! (backed by gold). Not a good time to be a multi-millionaire.

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Very bad, I think

Some really good posts here, thought provoking, to say the least.

I agree, America is morally/spiritually bankrupt. IMO it's how we got to this point to begin with.

I'm frightened. I believe things are going to break down to a level none of us has ever seen before. Americans are going to lose their minds and when the rest of the world sees it, they'll follow suit.

If more people were prepping in some way, I wonder if things would deteriorate to such a low point? I want to think things would be better, however, I suspect people would still take advantage of the situation and become worse than animals.

Someone mentioned the military being deployed. With the recent passing of the NDAA measure S1867, the government can legally use the U.S. military against citizens. I think it is a way and means for them to enact martial law, more control. I know, I sound like a conspiracy theorist....maybe I am (and then, there are the FEMA camps, YIKES!)

Interestingly, CM doesn't appear to believe people will default to animal behavior. Or, at least I don't get that impression by reading him. If I understand correctly....

 

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I seriously wonder if

I seriously wonder if CM and others DO secretly think it will get to that point but don't want to panick people.  One thing I know is that if you are vocal about prepping, most people will still think you're crazy, but those same people will know you are prepared, and will be the first ones coming to you for help when the SHTF.  I can see my whole neighborhood coming to me for help after years of writing me off as crazy. 

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 If CM openly spoke of the

 If CM openly spoke of the coming calamity, he would lose a fair portion of the undecided that happen to find the site.  They would simply write the site off as another conspiracy site and would move on without ever learning what they need to learn.  The reason Gerald Celente gets written off by many as a crackpot is that they are not to the point where they can understand his perspective.  Chris's site gives that perspective to those that are experienceing the first twinge of unease.  I don't know if Chris does buy into the worst of the fears, but I don't think he has the option of expressing those publically on this site without the risk of turning away those that need the info he has to give.

Just my opinion.

Tim

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When the SHTF May be Obsolete!

Given the president's signature today on the NDAA, how can anyone say the fan has not been hit?  In reality , it's slow mo, far from all at once.

Has anything off the fan hit you?

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not good

Lots of depressing news out today on the world economy - and a few good things to be fair.  What I have not seen is any realistic plan to deal with the massive debt and leverage in the world economy.  I am not so sure there is one.  Cutting spending is simply not happening here in the US and in most of Europe.  So, the debt party continues.  At some point the debt party is going to end.  The debt party ends when some event occurs that results in institutional investors loosing all interest in risk and moving in mass towards safety - commodities of all types and cash - anything physical.  If there is a financial emergency, paper assets will not be in demand.

The MF Global situation looks grim.  It does so appear that MF Global took money from customer segregated accounts and used it.  At the end they tried to put it back but could not come up with enough collateral to borrow the money and a buy out deal went south as a result.

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/must-read-presenting-mf-global-black-box-m...

It begs the question - Are other firms also doing this kind of stuff ?

CM has made it quite clear in his statements that people need to prepare for what could be a period of very difficult times.  He does not dwell on the social unrest aspect.

I have no faith in about half of the people in America.  Maybe I am wrong but I don't think so.  I think the government is preparing for some kind of event.  There are signs of it all over the place.  I think it is actually a good thing.  If there is a financial emergency there will be social unrest.  The government needs to be prepared for that.

America has been dumbed down.  The media feeds us some lies and a lot of twisted truths.  I do not believe there is a huge conspiracy.  I do believe that politicians learned that they could get elected and become rich and powerful by telling the people they were going to get stuff.  I think the politicians actually believed they could deliver on their promises - many have tried.  The result is a spending situation where a large class of dependency has been developed.  At the same time, America's judgement was eroded.  When a person can get on TV and claim they are going to apply extra taxes on the rich and those mean old corporations and give you the money - and then get elected by doing that - then we are all in real trouble.  That means the people's critical thinking skills have been eroded to the point where they can no longer make sound voting decisions.

The entire class warfare gig is nothing but trouble.  Yes there are inequities in the system - there always is.  However, turning Americans against Americans in a desperate effort to get elected to high office is a terrible thing.  Facts do have merit.  Remember, the top 10% of income earners currently pay 70% of the federal income tax.  47% either pay nothing or actually get paid.  That is totally broken.  So the entire class warfare thing is crap - the so called rich already pay the vast majority of taxes.  Forbes mag says that in 2010 only 235,000 people in America have net present values over 1 million dollars.  There simply are not that many rich people.  There is no way they can pay 1.5 trillion+ in overspending from now on - they simply do not have the money.  And, the overspending is scheduled to increase rapidly over the next 20 years.  We do not have a tax problem - we have a spending problem.  The issue the politicians have is excess spending on all kinds of transfer payments has created a huge class of dependency.  This class of dependency is really dependent on the transfer payments they receive. If they do not get them there will be an emergency and subsequent social unrest.  Haven't you noticed how the Tea Party people have got quiet ?  They have seen the numbers, thought it through, and they now know the score.  Cutting spending to balance the budget simply will not happen or there will be a massive collapse.  If you brought fed gov spending in balance with revenue it would result in an 8% reduction in GDP.  That would result in the next great depression.  The politicians will simply not do that.  The will spend and the Federal Reserve will buy the excess debt until inflation escalates to the point there are riots.  People will get their transfer payments.  But the money will not have enough purchasing power to live on.  You can not make people get jobs that do not exist.  They all know the situation just like we know it.

The Europe welfare state collapsed first because it was worse.  We are right behind them.  Italy's debt to GDP is 120%.  Ours is now 100% and growing. 

CM is right.  The best plan is to start preparing now for the inevitable.  At some point in the not to distant future the world's faith in the dollar is going to be impaired.  When that happens the emergency starts. Those that are prepared will fair much better than those are not.

 

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