Hey buddy, can you spare an erg?

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Hey buddy, can you spare an erg?

Energy is everywhere.  It takes every form and is the very stuff of which the entire material Universe consists.  Without it, all ceases to be.  Therefore, it seems unlikely that we will be running out of energy any time soon.

 

 

 

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Re: Hey buddy, can you spare an erg?
anarkst wrote:

Energy is everywhere.  It takes every form and is the very stuff of which the entire material Universe consists.  

Anarkst,

(post subsequently edited by author)

...on second thought, as much I'd enjoy engaging in a discussion on metaphysics, I don't think that it is really adding to the critical mission of Dr. Martenson's website, so I have removed my previous comments.

It's so easy to go off topic!

Brad

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Re: Hey buddy, can you spare an erg?
anarkst wrote:

 

Energy is everywhere.  It takes every form and is the very stuff of which the entire material Universe consists.  Without it, all ceases to be.  Therefore, it seems unlikely that we will be running out of energy any time soon.

I find myself asking myself where you are going with many of your posts. I'm guessing you are attempting to illicit thought and conversation, but I am not certain.

I disagree with your premise. Perhaps if you had said the universe will not run out of energy, there would be complete agreement. On the other hand, solar energy that falls to the earth and is uncaptured for use by humans is not the kind of energy that will support a complex society like oil has. Oil is nothing more than a battery that allows us to tap into millennia of stored solar energy. We humans ARE running out of options for energy if you expect to continue to support the current populations as they are enjoying cheap energy today. How do we charge our battery every day at the same level that took thousands of years to make all the fossil fuels we use daily? It takes oil to make solar panels...

Our time to commit the resources to establishing a way to capture that solar energy was in the 1970s. We could have still done a lot in the 1990s. Now that we have reached and passed Peak Oil, too little too late to turn the energy we are swimming in into the useful stuff that powers our current civilization. We will have no choice but to become less complex and power down. Conservation will be the new norm. If that's not running out of (effective) energy for us (humans) I don't know what is. Or perhaps you have a working fusion reactor in your basement, if so, do you need a business partner?

Rog

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off topic
Quote:

It's so easy to go off topic!

so true brad .. I do it whenever I get the erg

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Re: Hey buddy, can you spare an erg?

Tom,

You are either really good with PhotoShop, or simply have too much spare time on your hands!

Rog

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Re: Hey buddy, can you spare an erg?

Ready writes:

I find myself asking myself where you are going with many of your posts. I'm guessing you are attempting to illicit thought and conversation, but I am not certain.

I am just attempting to break through some preconceived notions.  When most people argue a point, they start at the conclusion and work there way back.  Check it out.

Energy issues are often perceived through a very fine filter.  When you step back a bit, many times you get an entirely different view.

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Re: Hey buddy, can you spare an erg?
anarkst wrote:

Energy issues are often perceived through a very fine filter.  When you step back a bit, many times you get an entirely different view.

OK, check out this view...

If you are adrift in the Pacific Ocean on a life raft, dehydrated and dying, even though you are completely surrounded by water, what good is it to you as a human in that condition without a machine to convert the saltwater into fresh? seems to me to be the perfect analog to your OP.

 

What I am not sure about is if you are suggesting that we should be focusd on 2 instead of 3 Es because we are awash with energy, we just need to capture it?

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Re: Hey buddy, can you spare an erg?
anarkst wrote:

I am just attempting to break through some preconceived notions. 

What notions are those? What if those notions prove correct? The very idea of a preconceived notion has a negative connotation that there is no thought in the idea, you walk into some place and already have a head full of bad info on which you make your decisions. This is not the case with the lack of Energy, a lot of work and data went into this mindset of mine, and many others here. At first, the concept of Peak Oil is rejected outright by most people, and it takes work to really gain an understanding and an appreciation for where we are today. What part of that process are you at? From your post it would seem you understand it all and have worked out the answer to mankind's needs.

Please tell us / me what we are missing here, I really want to know. I've got an open mind to a great idea!

Hey buddy, can you spare an answer?

 

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Re: off topic
Tom Loftus wrote:

 .. I do it whenever I get the erg

 

That's priceless! Thank you Tom!

Brad

 

_________________________

Block all the passages! Close your mouth, cordon off your senses, blunt your sharpness, untie your knots, soften your glare, settle your dust. This is the primal union or the secret embrace. ~Rumi

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Re: Hey buddy, can you spare an erg?

Ready writes:

If you are adrift in the Pacific Ocean on a life raft, dehydrated and dying, even though you are completely surrounded by water, what good is it to you as a human in that condition without a machine to convert the saltwater into fresh? seems to me to be the perfect analog to your OP.

Let's say that Mr. Peabody and Sherman loan you their Wayback machine and you go back to 1846 London, walk into the City Library, up to the second floor, and hidden in a dark corner, there's none other than Karl Marx pulling his hair out over the fourteenth draft of the "Grundrisse."  [Regardless of your political or economic slant, I believe you will acknowledge that KM is a huge intellect.]  So, you approach Mr. Marx and ask him for a few minutes of his time to discuss energy issues.  After telling him your concerns with our contemporary energy difficulties, he gives you his laser stare, and resumes his work.

The point is is that technology changes everything, in a big way, and especially now.  Just as somebody in the middle of the 19th century could not conceive of an electrified world, nor can we imagine what is in store in our future. 

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Re: Hey buddy, can you spare an erg?

Anarkst,

I'm going to try this once more, do you have a specific idea as to how to apply said technology?

 

If not, I would ask you to review the 6 stages of awareness, as I too got caught for a long time in the bargaining stage of "technology will save us." This one was by far the hardest for me as I am a bit of a techie.

Are you a member? If so, Chris' latest Martenson Report was a gem in talking about just this situation. I highly recommend you pay up and join for the reports you are missing if you are not a subscriber. Well worth it.

PS, I see you are a new member, so welcome aboard.

Best,

Rog

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Re: Hey buddy, can you spare an erg?

Ready write:

What notions are those? What if those notions prove correct? The very idea of a preconceived notion has a negative connotation that there is no thought in the idea, you walk into some place and already have a head full of bad info on which you make your decisions. This is not the case with the lack of Energy, a lot of work and data went into this mindset of mine, and many others here. At first, the concept of Peak Oil is rejected outright by most people, and it takes work to really gain an understanding and an appreciation for where we are today. What part of that process are you at? From your post it would seem you understand it all and have worked out the answer to mankind's needs.

Please tell us / me what we are missing here, I really want to know. I've got an open mind to a great idea!

Hey buddy, can you spare an answer?

I am not saying what is right or wrong.  So what if it is Peak oil?  What if it is not?  The important to thing to keep in mind is that either is OK.  Not only do I not understand it all, I don't understand any of it. 

The world of ideas is the world of the past.  Keeping an open mind mean accepting what is going on now, not necessarily your interpretation of what has past. 

So, you want a great idea?  Go outside and find a really beautiful tree.  Breathe in and out one hundred times to calm yourself.  Then, out loud, ask the most perplexing question you know.  Come back and tell me what happened.

 

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Re: Hey buddy, can you spare an erg?

Perhaps I am taking this thread a bit too seriously. I'll take your lead as it author and drop the original point.

Wish you the best,

Rog

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Re: Hey buddy, can you spare an erg?

I'm going to try this once more, do you have a specifc idea as to how to apply said technology?

 If not, I would ask you to review the 6 stages of awareness, as I too got caught for a long time in the denial stage of "technology will save us." This one was by far the hardest for me as I am a bit of a techie.

Are you a member? If so, Chris' latest Martenson Report was a gem in talking about just this situation. I highly recommend you pay up and join for the reports you are missing if you are not a subscriber. Well worth it.

PS, I see you are a new member, so welcome aboard.

Thank you for your kindness. 

Much of how you view things depends on your point of departure.  I am not concerned whether technology will save us or not.  When you look at the progression of history, it seems likely that that it's not quite time to get out the sandwich signs.  Most people are simply concerned about their own hide.  The difference between you and I is that you are trying to save your own life.

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Re: Hey buddy, can you spare an erg?

Hmmmm. Not sure how to take that exactly.

Perhaps you have taken up the philosophical stance on our (my) predicament rather than a logical or proactive one because you don't plan to be around to see any crash? Am I to assume that your age puts you in a place mentally where you care not what happens to you as you have already lived a rich life, and are not interested in getting your panties in a bundle in the 11th hour?

Perhaps that is too personal a question, and I don't really need or expect an answer. Whatever your motivation, it is clearly different than mine. The only thing that I take exception with is the fact that I work for far more than my own hide, as most of us here on this site do. Community is an underlying theme here that while not perfect, is something most of us subscribe to.  I would like to ease everyone's burden that I can, it's not just about me.

Perhaps on this point, we are in agreement, as there is clearly a reason you come here to post, perhaps community is important to you as well? Maybe this thread is not about energy at all?

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Re: Hey buddy, can you spare an erg?

Here’s a good section of a lecture by JH Kunstler that also addresses the idea that technology is somehow going to save Americans from transitioning to a completely different way of life.

________________________________________________________

 “The American public is stuck in what we call the psychology of previous investment…we have literally invested our national wealth of the last sixty years in a living arrangement that has no future…we’ve invested our national wealth in a deeply oil-dependent, car-dependent economy…which is the greatest misallocation of natural resources in the history of the world…and that psychology of previous investment prevents us from thinking clearly about what we’ve done…which has been described by others as an “outside context problem”…that means it is a problem far beyond the context of our ordinary understanding...that we simply can’t process the information…people who have spent their whole lives working and growing up in suburbia can’t imagine that circumstances would prevent them from living that way…now the truth is history is merciless and doesn’t care what our expectations are, and that circumstances and events will compel us to do things whether we like it or not…but in the “Jiminy Cricket economy “ where your wishes all come true, and it’s possible to get something for nothing…people have a hard time with anything that implies a sense of consequence…and the dirty secret of the American economy, for at least a generation, is that it is based on the creation of suburban sprawl, and the accessorizing, furnishing, and servicing of that living arrangement…and if you subtract it or decide not to do it anymore, you’re not going to have much of an American economy left”

 

see

at the 2:00 mark

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Re: Hey buddy, can you spare an erg?

...the man behind the erg

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Re: Hey buddy, can you spare an erg?

Perhaps that is too personal a question, and I don't really need or expect an answer. Whatever your motivation, it is clearly different than mine. The only thing that I take exception with is the fact that I work for far more than my own hide, as most of us here on this site do. Community is an underlying theme here that while not perfect, is something most of us subscribe to.  I would like to ease everyone's burden that I can, it's not just about me.

I didn't mean that to be personal.  I understand that most people are concerned with saving their own life (as well as protecting the lives of their families).  I wouldn't deny that my perspective is a bit different because of our ages, but it goes deeper.  Life, itself, forms our greatest attachment, as death creates the basis for all of our fears.  If you can transcend your attachment to life thereby eliminating your fear of death, you begin to look at things differently. 

 

Perhaps on this point, we are in agreement, as there is clearly a reason you come here to post, perhaps community is important to you as well? Maybe this thread is not about energy at all?

The point of my thread was energy.  And this seems like a wonderful community of very bright, compassionate people.  If you are trying to figure me out, I can give you my ex-wife's phone number.  She can tell you everything.  

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Re: Hey buddy, can you spare an erg?

The sun, an average star, is a fusion reactor that has been burning over 4 billion years. It provides enough energy in one minute to supply the world's energy needs for one year. In one day, it provides more energy than our current population would consume in 27 years. In fact, "The amount of solar radiation striking the earth over a three-day period is equivalent to the energy stored in all fossil energy sources."

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Re: Hey buddy, can you spare an erg?
anarkst wrote:

If you can transcend your attachment to life thereby eliminating your fear of death, you begin to look at things differently. 

 

I will not deny you that a complete lack of fear will change your decision making process, if one is truly able to achieve this. I have never met anyone capable of this.

That said, no matter what your views on life are, you cannot stop the advance of what is to come. Even if I was to honestly rid myself of any fear of death (and I can assure you this is not something I dwell on as it is) I would still be remiss in not preparing for the sake of those in my family and those that come after me. To put it bluntly, you can be unafraid of a firing squad, but the end result is the same should you stand in front of one whether you fear them or not. Some things transcend fear and mental state, no?

I'm pleased that you have achieved a higher state than most if us, I am saddened that you use this as the reason you do not need to prepare as you care not what happens to you. Ultimately, I still see this as bargaining, but I may be wrong, as my wife will tell you I often am. I'm not giving you her number, as that might tend to incriminate me!

 

Larry, too funny.

Cheers,

Rog

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Re: Hey buddy, can you spare an erg?

That said, no matter what your views on life are, you cannot stop the advance of what is to come. Even if I was to honestly rid myself of any fear of death (and I can assure you this is not something I dwell on as it is) I would still be remiss in not preparing for the sake of those in my family and those that come after me. To put it bluntly, you can be unafraid of a firing squad, but the end result is the same should you stand in front of one whether you fear them or not. Some things transcend fear and mental state, no?

I am not trying to stop anything.  I simply try to take life one day at a time.  When I sort of realized what was coming down (many years ago), I decided to greatly simplify my life.  In order to do anything with the greatest efficacy, you have to be able to see (as clearly as possible) what's going on.  That's all I am saying.  No matter how many times we try, the square peg in not going to fit into the round hole.  Sometimes, it just takes us a long time to ascertain the shape of the hole.

I'm pleased that you have achieved a higher state than most if us, I am saddened that you use this as the reason you do not need to prepare as you care not what happens to you. Ultimately, I still see this as bargaining, but I may be wrong, as my wife will tell you I often am. I'm not giving you her number, as that might tend to incriminate me!

I have not achieved anything, believe me.  I do believe that the process of growing in life has much to do with confronting your fears.  And all fear can be traced back to the fear of death.  Think about it.

 

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Re: Hey buddy, can you spare an erg?

Anarkst,

While this has been a pleasant exchange, it seems to me it has run as far as it is going to, at least from my perspective.

Good luck with whatever you do, or don't do in the future. Sounds like you are happy to deal with whatever life dishes you, I'm sure that is a serene state of mind to be in. Everyone feels happiness (and fear) a bit differently than their neighbor, sounds like you have them both licked!

Best,

Rog

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Re: Hey buddy, can you spare an erg?

The point of this post was to show that things are rarely as they seem to be.  I also wanted to confront the notion that it is possible to run out of energy when everything is energy. 

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Re: Hey buddy, can you spare an erg?

Everyone feels happiness (and fear) a bit differently than their neighbor, sounds like you have them both licked!

No reason to get nasty.

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Re: Hey buddy, can you spare an erg?
anarkst wrote:

No reason to get nasty.

You clearly misinterpret my meaning. I simply meant that I could not be happy to just accept whatever life gives me if I have the wherewithal to impact my condition. Clearly, your situation is different and I am both tolerant and non-judgemental about how you choose to respond to our situation. Since we have reached a point where we agree to be different, there is nothing more to say on the topic.

I'm not understanding how you interpreted that as nasty, but I withdraw it with apologies if you still find the comment rude in any way. Nasty was not in my heart when I typed it.

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Re: Hey buddy, can you spare an erg?

I will take you at your word.  Enjoyed the conversation.

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Re: Hey buddy, can you spare an erg?

Agreed.

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Re: Hey buddy, can you spare an erg?
Ready wrote:

Tom,

You are either really good with PhotoShop, or simply have too much spare time on your hands!

Rog

lol .. well Rog, from what I've seen you have practical contact with only one of those possibilities 

 

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Re: Hey buddy, can you spare an erg?
Tom Loftus wrote:
Ready wrote:

Tom,

You are either really good with PhotoShop, or simply have too much spare time on your hands!

Rog

lol .. well Rog, from what I've seen you have practical contact with only one of those possibilities 

 

OK, So I'm trying to figure out how you got the mouse to stand still for the photograph. Put cheese in your ear?

 

BTW, you can tell when it's raining here by my posting activity... what's your excuse?

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Re: Hey buddy, can you spare an erg?
anarkst wrote:

The point of this post was to show that things are rarely as they seem to be.  I also wanted to confront the notion that it is possible to run out of energy when everything is energy. 

 

This discussion is very similar to ideas I had about the "What is Money" thread.  Money serves two purposes, one is to create a scale for which to compare the relative value of two different things.  A suit may be worth 6 frugals and an ounce of gold may be worth 9 frugals so an ounce of gold is worth 1 1/2 suits, but that says nothing about a frugal.  The other more important purpose of money is a store of value.  When your labor produces something, ie a bushel of apples, you want to "save" that labor and store it in frugals, er I mean money.

In order to be a store of value it must be something that has demand, is difficult (requires labor) to produce and cannot be produced more efficiently over time, and is convenient to transport.

If anarkst became a successful alchemist, gold would no longer be money because it would be easy to produce.

Now the idea, what if we had a coin which was equivalent or instantly convertable into 1 KWH.  And a slightly larger coin that was equivalent to 100KWH.  Voila, the new money.  According to anarkst everything is energy so this is already true.  All we need is a way to instantly extract the energy.  This new money could not be debased by a fiat government.  Unless some brilliant scienest figures out a way to make 100KWH coins for practically nothing.  Think how that would change the world.   Wasn't that the point ot this thread?

 

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Re: Hey buddy, can you spare an erg?

dsinor writes:

Now the idea, what if we had a coin which was equivalent or instantly convertable into 1 KWH.  And a slightly larger coin that was equivalent to 100KWH.  Voila, the new money.  According to anarkst everything is energy so this is already true.  All we need is a way to instantly extract the energy.  This new money could not be debased by a fiat government.  Unless some brilliant scienest figures out a way to make 100KWH coins for practically nothing.  Think how that would change the world.   Wasn't that the point ot this thread?

The point of the thread was to challenge people's basic assumptions.  This just happened to be a particularly dramatic example, but all things are this way.

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